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Messages 4141 - 4160 of total 5937 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 5, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
Yes,, NY will force those who own high cap mags into selling them out of state. Or become knowing law breakers if no grandfathering will be done. Tamato, tahmahtohw...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 5, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
Maybe guns are the problem.

Fine, if you're going to quote Wikipedia, then, again, let's be consistent:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_in_the_United_States

So, if you really think that gangs in the US and UK are comparable by any metric, well... no point in arguing. Part of a productive argument (rather than being like dogs pissing on trees) is to admit what common ground there is, and attempt to build understanding from that common ground. And even your cited page states that 65% of gun-murder in the UK is gang-related. I'm not going to dig up the stats, but I've read many times that the figure is higher in the US. Perhaps that higher percentage is after accounting for gun accidents and suicides. Even so, it would put "unaccounted for" gun-caused murders in the country down into the hundreds.

I've already cited stats in this thread showing that after accidents and suicides, the remaining percentage of "homicides" caused by guns is less than 40% of the 12,000 figure you keep citing.

If you say that gangs in the UK and US are neatly comparable, then it's clear from the above that the vast majority of genuine murders in this country (committed with a gun) are gangland in nature.

And if you say that gangs in the UK and US are fundamentally not comparable, then you should stop citing anything about UK statistics to make your points.

Really, the two societies are SO different, on SO many fundamental metrics completely unrelated to the "gun culture," that comparisons between them on the gun issue are really quite specious. I notice that you don't try to compare other developed nations that HAVE a "gun culture" and with ready and quite easy access to guns, because those are counterarguments to your perspective.

And, keep in mind that I keep saying that I personally don't give a rip about what gun-purchase measured get enacted. I think that whole approach is laughable, futile, and pretty much harmless. So, I have no dog in that fight. ALL that bothers me about this nationwide debate is that it takes attention away from what really ARE serious issues that we would better devote our national will to addressing.

We have a GANG problem in this country, and it is far, far out of proportion to that of, say, the UK.

And it's a problem that can be solved, and solved very quickly, if we would devote 1/10 of the national will to it that we presently devote to the ridiculous war on drugs.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Apr 5, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
And it's a problem that can be solved, and solved very quickly, if we would devote 1/10 of the national will to it that we presently devote to the ridiculous war on drugs.


I'd think legalizing many of those drugs would solve the gang problem much faster. Take away much of their money and reason to fight over turf while taxing drug sales and investing in schools rather than prisons.

Plus, who cares about gangland murders? Ron flashed some cold blooded killers but didn't show the pieces of sh#t those guys probably murdered. Sh#t in, sh#t out. I usually don't give a crap about those types, or motorcycle gangs, or whoever murdering each other. If only they could do it before reproducing, that would be perfect.
hillrat

Trad climber
reno, nv
Apr 5, 2013 - 07:56pm PT
Well, I just put in for big game tags. Got nothing to do with crime, murder (unless you're the vegan type and care to accuse me of that), or whatever some newsweek article had to say about firearms. Funny, it didn't seem to affect my ego either.

Maybe people are the problem?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 5, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
ohww yu gun knutter MURDEROUS aneemule killer racist! (Im having deer chops tonight)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 5, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
Maybe people are the problem?

Certain ones, obviously.

Good luck with your hunt. Anything edible you don't want, let me know... I've always wanted to try deer heart... elk heart would be interesting too.

From what I gathered hunting in CA is a pain in the ass. I will be sticking to squirrel and rabbit until I move to another state.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 5, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
You mean that the FBI is wrong, apparently.

Why would that be what I would "apparently" mean? In your mind are there REALLY no other viable alternatives? (This is exactly what I mean by a lack of philosophical charity.)

The number cited in the article you linked spanned a four-year period, and the numbers do decline year by year. For 2011, the FBI claims 12,664 "murders and non-negligent manslaughters." I'm guessing that this is where you get the "12,000 murders" figure that you state repeatedly on this thread. But the FBI heading is actually a technical term, which I'll get to in a moment.

Further confusing the picture is that many other credible sites do not state the same figures. Some examples....

The Washington Post cites 9960 gun-caused homicides, which includes murders, accidents, and suicides, for the year 2007. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/nation/gun-homicides-ownership/table/

Factcheck reports about 11,000 murders in 2010, which is about 3,000 less than the FBI: http://factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/

Given that gun-violence rates have steadily declined over the last five years (even as gun sales have increased significantly), a figure of 11,000 for 2010 would not correlate well with the FBI figure of over 12,000 for one year later.

As I've cited already up-thread, the CDC’s data show there were 11,078 homicides committed with guns in 2010, and their data includes suicides and accidental deaths. This correlates well with the Factcheck figure for that same year. However, again, this comes widely apart from the FBI figure, AND, unlike the FBI figure, it DOES include accidental and suicide death by gun, making the disconnect from the FBI figure even wider.

I could go on and on with this.

So, are ALL these credible sites (including the CDC!) saying that the FBI figures are wrong? Well, not so fast.

Perhaps some of the disconnect comes in the form of definitions. The FBI's tables refer to "murder and non-negligent manslaughter," which is a technical term meaning: "The willful (non-negligent) killing of one human being by another."

This definition is EXTREMELY open-ended, and the definition is further muddied by the FBI's own caveat: "The classification of this offense is based solely on police investigation as opposed to the determination of a court, medical examiner, coroner, jury, or other judicial body."

Uhhh... HOLD the presses (and superficial conclusions)!

PLEASE NOTE: the FBI figures are published pre-review by other authorities, including (most notably) judges and juries. What this means is that the police/FBI may "investigate" (and thereby add to the FBI "murder" statistics) a killing that is later ruled a "justifiable homicide," accident, suicide, or other non-murder.

The point is that it is very, very difficult to arrive at THE FIGURE that accurately represents exactly how many MURDERS (and murders ONLY) that are committed with a gun.

So, perhaps better than suggesting (or claiming that others are suggesting) that "The FBI is wrong," it would be better to actually delve into (rather than take a typically simplistic and superficial view) what all of the cited "murder" figures really represent. As in the case of this whole debate, "the facts" require some careful, thoughtful, and even complex analysis.

Even a pretty superficial analysis, however, indicates that the FBI statistics contain significantly inflated values for "murder," as these statistics (by the FBI's own definition) are pre-review and therefore "raw." And the FBI does NOT go back in time as these "investigation figures" are later vetted by courts and other agencies in order to correct the figures to properly reflect the final determination. So, the FBI figures are (and always will be) indeed RAW and thereby necessarily inflated.

I haven't taken the time to look into the many other studies, as I have better things to do with my life than a deep scholarly analysis of the research on gun-crime.

That's not a punt. Notice that in just this very brief overview I have shown what COULD be done to properly understand the figures various credible sites report. That's all I need to know to be confident that the figure of "12,000 murders" that you float all over this thread is entirely unreliable and certainly significantly inflated.

Your use of that figure reflects, yet again, a very superficial and over-simplified view of the data. The CDC figures are likely MUCH more reliable, and they cite a lower figure than does the FBI. Furthermore, their figure includes accidents and suicides by gun that the FBI's does not. So, the CDC reports a lower figure EVEN INCLUDING accidents and suicides by gun.

Furthermore, in 2009, the CDC reported that only 36.7% of gun-caused deaths were homicides (what the FBI would classify as "murder and non-negligent manslaughter"). Contrasting the FBI and CDC data produces a distant corollary of about 11,000 to 14,000 "homicides" by gun in 2009 or 2010. The BIG difference, however, is that the FBI figures are RAW, while the CDC figures are "cooked."

In short, according to the CDC, there were about 4000 ACTUAL "murders" by gun in 2009 or 2010 (the figures vary only slightly between these years). The rest of the about 11,000 (not 12,000) gun deaths were accidents or suicides.

I don't know, but to ME, 4000 murders by gun per year in a nation of 1/3 of a billion people just isn't something to get all worked up about. It's not NOTHING, but it's also not a NATIONAL crisis. As a NATION (rather than as state and local law enforcement agencies), we've got FAR bigger fish to fry!

(And don't ask me for more statistical analysis, because I've got better things to do than offer you a more thoughtful analysis of the data than you are willing to do for yourself. YOU have an ax to grind here, which I do not. So YOU are determined that the data must fit your view, which I am not. But if you would actually dig a bit into the figures, you would see pretty quickly (as I've just shown) that the numbers are not all slam-dunk up in da hood!)

My point remains constant: make any gun-sales laws you want. More power to you. I honestly, and I mean that, don't care. Such laws are pretty harmless (imho) and will prove to be as useless as they are harmless.

ALL I care about in this debate is what a tempest in a teapot it is, which diverts national attention away from the really pressing issues that face us as a NATION.

Let state and local law enforcement do what they do; gun control is a states-rights issue anyway (unless EVERYTHING suddenly falls under the interstate-commerce clause).

As a NATION this issue is statistically insignificant, and as a NATION we should be focused on other things. So, let's get the President and congress-critters back to work on some things that REALLY do matter to the NATION, such as the debt and the fact that it's about to make the dollar lose its place as the world's reserve currency.

These folks have MORE than enough to occupy their time just resolving that one. Let's not divert their attention away from it.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 5, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
fuk, I just sat on my left nut.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 5, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 6, 2013 - 12:07am PT
Okey-dokey then. It's clear what we're dealing with on this thread.

Cozy... if you're Hannibal Lecter.

... no signs of rational life, but I'm going to find it. If I have to tear this universe another black hole, I'm going to find it. I've... GOT TO, MISTER.

If I'm not back in five minutes... just wait longer.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Apr 6, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
Any stats to back any of that up, or are you guys just making it up?


"you guys"??? You are becoming as big an embarrassment with your rhetoric as that fukstick Riley was. Probably should quit while you're behind like he did too.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 6, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
... no signs of rational life

hahaha... you mean "rational" as in...

... cigarettes kill more people than guns so we shouldn't spend any effort regulating machines designed to kill dozens of people in minutes. In fact, we should let anyone who isn't a convicted felon buy 2 guns a week and unlimited ammo without arousing any suspicion...even if they have been recently described as a homicidal maniac by a mental health professional... then rant about a conspiracy when a government agency openly orders a reasonable amount of ammo for years of training. I know a gun owner whose guns have never been used in a crime... so gun owners are responsible and there is no need for any kind of regulation whatsoever. Everyone knows any increased regulation is just the first step to a tyrannical government... just like it was(n't) when Ronny Raygun did it.


Someone was smoking a cigarette at the crag the other day. I didn't feel threatened AT ALL... and simply walked down wind. I didn't even feel the need to report them for attempted murder.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 6, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Apr 6, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
So not surprised that batman shooter Holmes was drugged into acting out.

During their execution of the search warrant on Holmes' apartment, police,
“found 2 prescription medications, One for sertraline, a generic version of Zoloft ... Zoloft is the same psychotropic drug that Columbine

killer Eric Harris was on... and 2nd... Clonazepam... considered one of the most potent, highly hypnotic, and longest lasting (4days+) drugs on the market.

http://tobefree.wordpress.com/2013/04/06/video-court-documents-confirm-batman-shooter-was-on-zoloft-the-same-psychotropic-drug-that-columbine-killer-eric-harris-was-taking-before-his-rampage/




Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 6, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
Yeah, now the aurora as#@&%e says he is "muslim"...


ohhww and MAGAZINES,,yaddiyaddi, Murderers yaddi yaddi,, Racists yaddi yaddi NUTS yaddi yaddi..
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 6, 2013 - 11:19pm PT
So not surprised that batman shooter Holmes was drugged into acting out.

killer Eric Harris was on... and 2nd... Clonazepam... considered one of the most potent, highly hypnotic, and longest lasting (4days+) drugs on the market.

Gee, if only we had the technology to cross-reference potential gun buyers with people on prescription drugs that have serious mindfuk potential. I'm sure it is POSSIBLE... should we try? Whaddaya think?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 6, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
there is no reason to have traffic lights because the bad guys will ignore them anyway


there is no reason to have any laws against murder because the bad guys will ignore them anyway

all laws do is inconvenience the good people and take away their rights

some countries got it figured out right

like Somalia, the Congo, Syria
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 7, 2013 - 11:49am PT
Finally... a rational discussion.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 7, 2013 - 11:52am PT
yeah but The UK,,, yeah but the UK ,, yeah but the UK...








LONDON (Reuters) - Actress Joan Collins says she prefers life in New York over her birthplace of London, which she calls dirty, crime-ridden and rife with violent thugs.

The 69-year-old actress, who owns a flat in the fashionable west London neighbourhood of Belgravia, said she dreads walking even the few hundred yards to her hairdresser's for fear of being mugged.

"Groups of muggers are frequently attacking people in the area where I live. And the police don't appear to be able to do anything about it," she was quoted as saying in an interview with the Mail on Sunday.

"To be honest, I feel so much more comfortable there (in New York) than I do in London. I feel so much safer for a start."

The veteran actress's comments came a day after one of the country's top police officers said Prime Minister Tony Blair may fail in his pledge to bring the country's levels of street crime under control by the end of September.

London, in particular, has seen a sharp rise in street crime, with offences up 40 percent earlier this year over the previous year. Recent figures indicate, however, it may have reached a plateau with police data showing street crime in the capital was down 8.6 percent between April and July.

Collins said she worries about the safety of her daughters, the eldest of whom, Tara Newley, was mugged for her watch in Notting Hill last year.

She is not the only celebrity victim of London street crime -- thieves tried to grab a diamond necklace from U.S. entertainer Liza Minnelli while her car was stopped at a traffic light in March.

Collins, who married fifth husband Percy Gibson in London in February, heaped particular scorn on the large numbers of "louts" on the capital's streets.

"Yobbism in London is rife. In New York, people are more polite, more respectful," she said.




mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 7, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
Actress Joan Collins says she prefers life in New York

Oh golly, Joan Collins... well, there's a statistically valid professional opinion based on a sample size of 1.

69-year-old actress... ha, that was written 10 years ago... bitch be 79 now dumb ass.
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