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Messages 4141 - 4160 of total 5824 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 5, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
The Feds put "aid stations" out in the canyons below Tuscon right now. Water, first aid kits blankets etc etc. All for the Illegal immigrants.

Says who?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 5, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
Said the US border patrol to my brother. havent you been listening,, googleguy ? Lots of libs in Tuscon,, it IS the LIB mecca of AZ, and they collect goods and water for them too.. Ive seen such wit mah own eyeballz. And the litter they leave behind from such.. Ive hunted all over S of Tuscon as one of my bros lives there.
hillrat

Trad climber
reno, nv
Apr 5, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
i dont think we want to do things here thd way mexico does them.
and most of the little bastards i,ve seen in gangs are us citz, like you n me, only young, stupid, uneducated, with drug-addled parents or none.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 5, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
Said the US border patrol to my brother.

You are fuking hopeless dude.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 5, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
ive long since given up on you wes. Coyotes hunting hogs BWAAAAHAHAHA1!



Aemadeo           sought for murder in Reno..
Aemadeo sought for murder in Reno..
Credit: Ron Anderson



Juan Manuel Sanchez  arrested in Reno for shootings  -known gang bange...
Juan Manuel Sanchez arrested in Reno for shootings -known gang banger
Credit: Ron Anderson


both these dudes are cold blooded killers..Im nothing like them HR. They were locals. Also from recent happenings here. For the previous three montsh, 69% of serious crimes reported by local news were committed by for the most illegal immigrants in the greater reno/tahoe area.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 5, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
Ground hogs, as in the first critter you mention, you fuking dumb ass.

You act like you are the only one who has seen or eaten wildlife because you spend all day stuffing them.

But what else can we expect from someone who thinks an unknown BP agent telling your brother something makes it a fact? Or that the opinion of one VA counselor, also your brother, accurately portrays the millions of mental health PROFESSIONALS in the VA system.


Tell us more about how the government is going to take your guns. Or how you need more ammo for the impending shootout in your parking lot.
hillrat

Trad climber
reno, nv
Apr 5, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
hey now, i didnt accuse you of that. just sayin theres plenty of US citizens who,ve chosen that lifestyle. ya aint gona deport them. and its not right to arrest them without commission of a crime. now if gang affiliation is a crime, then theres things that could be done. we cant just throw em in jail, aint enuf jails. and so far nobody seems willing to commit resources to fight socioeconomic conditions that make gangland attractive, so here we are stuck w em.

maybe start w free education. then maybe they wdnt have to steal n sling dope to eat.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 5, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
Well, wes, you can google, or you can see by being there. And as per usual youll choose google research over being there any day. My brother was denied access to a canyon hes hunted for years. He is a thirty year Nam era veteran and has every damm right to hunt that canyon as he has for over two decades. He pays taxes for that damm land and had fought for that damm land and got refused by border patrol to enter that damm land. Now you do the damm math.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 5, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
Well, wes, you can google, or you can see by being there.

Most illegal immigrants cross the boarder in CA, not AZ. I've spent hundreds of days working in the hills of SoCal. Some illegals used our sediment retention basins for shelter. Nice little fires, coals still warm when I got there. I can safely say I've been "there."

I can also safely say I'm not stupid enough to think my personal experience accurately reflects the situation at the boarder, unlike you.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 5, 2013 - 06:26pm PT
now if gang affiliation is a crime, then theres things that could be done. we cant just throw em in jail, aint enuf jails. and so far nobody seems willing to commit resources to fight socioeconomic conditions that make gangland attractive, so here we are stuck w em.

Now we're getting somewhere. Two forks here....

1) We're stuck with 'em. Okay, in that event, let's admit the "the gun problem" in this country is primarily grounded in our willingness to be "stuck with 'em."

2) We could do exactly what you suggest: address the socioeconomic conditions that make gangland attractive. A big part of that is the "attractive" aspect, which is almost entirely a function of the disastrous "war on drugs." Keep in mind that MOST poorer people do not turn to gangs. The "socioeconomic conditions" typically mean "economic conditions," which is indeed a factor. But the CHOICE of these gangbangers derives from the appeal of money and power.

Our jails are FILLED with non-violent "criminals" whose only "crime" is being part of the "drug culture," which is itself a pejorative term when there is no corresponding term for the "alcohol culture" in this country. Getting wasted on the weekends with beer is so normal and acceptable that vast amounts of money are devoted to advertising it (oh, yeah, with "drink responsibly" attached). But partying on the weekend with blow is a very, very, VERY bad no-no!

Ridiculous.

Clean out our prisons of these non-criminals (remember prohibition?), which would free up the space for this gang-banger trash. Stop the futile war on drugs (remember prohibition???), which would dry up most of the gangland revenue stream. And then start nailing asses to the wall!

If we can't have the national will to do this, then let's quit wringing our hands about "all the murder in this country" that is almost entirely caused by gangland America.

The best chance of success in any fight is to fight the fight where the fight actually is.
hillrat

Trad climber
reno, nv
Apr 5, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
mechrist, are the new NY mag bans essentially a confiscation of sorts? i realize its just a component, but hey- destroy it or sell it out of state- no option to keep it.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 5, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
Ain't really a confiscation unless they... uh confiscate it. My understanding is that it is a ban, not a confiscation. Nobody is actually taking them away from people, are they?


The best chance of success in any fight is to fight the fight where the fight actually is.

Unless of course you have drones and can fight in your boxers from a Lazy Boy.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 5, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
Yes,, NY will force those who own high cap mags into selling them out of state. Or become knowing law breakers if no grandfathering will be done. Tamato, tahmahtohw...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 5, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
Maybe guns are the problem.

Fine, if you're going to quote Wikipedia, then, again, let's be consistent:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_in_the_United_States

So, if you really think that gangs in the US and UK are comparable by any metric, well... no point in arguing. Part of a productive argument (rather than being like dogs pissing on trees) is to admit what common ground there is, and attempt to build understanding from that common ground. And even your cited page states that 65% of gun-murder in the UK is gang-related. I'm not going to dig up the stats, but I've read many times that the figure is higher in the US. Perhaps that higher percentage is after accounting for gun accidents and suicides. Even so, it would put "unaccounted for" gun-caused murders in the country down into the hundreds.

I've already cited stats in this thread showing that after accidents and suicides, the remaining percentage of "homicides" caused by guns is less than 40% of the 12,000 figure you keep citing.

If you say that gangs in the UK and US are neatly comparable, then it's clear from the above that the vast majority of genuine murders in this country (committed with a gun) are gangland in nature.

And if you say that gangs in the UK and US are fundamentally not comparable, then you should stop citing anything about UK statistics to make your points.

Really, the two societies are SO different, on SO many fundamental metrics completely unrelated to the "gun culture," that comparisons between them on the gun issue are really quite specious. I notice that you don't try to compare other developed nations that HAVE a "gun culture" and with ready and quite easy access to guns, because those are counterarguments to your perspective.

And, keep in mind that I keep saying that I personally don't give a rip about what gun-purchase measured get enacted. I think that whole approach is laughable, futile, and pretty much harmless. So, I have no dog in that fight. ALL that bothers me about this nationwide debate is that it takes attention away from what really ARE serious issues that we would better devote our national will to addressing.

We have a GANG problem in this country, and it is far, far out of proportion to that of, say, the UK.

And it's a problem that can be solved, and solved very quickly, if we would devote 1/10 of the national will to it that we presently devote to the ridiculous war on drugs.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Apr 5, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
And it's a problem that can be solved, and solved very quickly, if we would devote 1/10 of the national will to it that we presently devote to the ridiculous war on drugs.


I'd think legalizing many of those drugs would solve the gang problem much faster. Take away much of their money and reason to fight over turf while taxing drug sales and investing in schools rather than prisons.

Plus, who cares about gangland murders? Ron flashed some cold blooded killers but didn't show the pieces of sh#t those guys probably murdered. Sh#t in, sh#t out. I usually don't give a crap about those types, or motorcycle gangs, or whoever murdering each other. If only they could do it before reproducing, that would be perfect.
hillrat

Trad climber
reno, nv
Apr 5, 2013 - 07:56pm PT
Well, I just put in for big game tags. Got nothing to do with crime, murder (unless you're the vegan type and care to accuse me of that), or whatever some newsweek article had to say about firearms. Funny, it didn't seem to affect my ego either.

Maybe people are the problem?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 5, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
ohww yu gun knutter MURDEROUS aneemule killer racist! (Im having deer chops tonight)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 5, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
Maybe people are the problem?

Certain ones, obviously.

Good luck with your hunt. Anything edible you don't want, let me know... I've always wanted to try deer heart... elk heart would be interesting too.

From what I gathered hunting in CA is a pain in the ass. I will be sticking to squirrel and rabbit until I move to another state.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 5, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
You mean that the FBI is wrong, apparently.

Why would that be what I would "apparently" mean? In your mind are there REALLY no other viable alternatives? (This is exactly what I mean by a lack of philosophical charity.)

The number cited in the article you linked spanned a four-year period, and the numbers do decline year by year. For 2011, the FBI claims 12,664 "murders and non-negligent manslaughters." I'm guessing that this is where you get the "12,000 murders" figure that you state repeatedly on this thread. But the FBI heading is actually a technical term, which I'll get to in a moment.

Further confusing the picture is that many other credible sites do not state the same figures. Some examples....

The Washington Post cites 9960 gun-caused homicides, which includes murders, accidents, and suicides, for the year 2007. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/nation/gun-homicides-ownership/table/

Factcheck reports about 11,000 murders in 2010, which is about 3,000 less than the FBI: http://factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/

Given that gun-violence rates have steadily declined over the last five years (even as gun sales have increased significantly), a figure of 11,000 for 2010 would not correlate well with the FBI figure of over 12,000 for one year later.

As I've cited already up-thread, the CDCís data show there were 11,078 homicides committed with guns in 2010, and their data includes suicides and accidental deaths. This correlates well with the Factcheck figure for that same year. However, again, this comes widely apart from the FBI figure, AND, unlike the FBI figure, it DOES include accidental and suicide death by gun, making the disconnect from the FBI figure even wider.

I could go on and on with this.

So, are ALL these credible sites (including the CDC!) saying that the FBI figures are wrong? Well, not so fast.

Perhaps some of the disconnect comes in the form of definitions. The FBI's tables refer to "murder and non-negligent manslaughter," which is a technical term meaning: "The willful (non-negligent) killing of one human being by another."

This definition is EXTREMELY open-ended, and the definition is further muddied by the FBI's own caveat: "The classification of this offense is based solely on police investigation as opposed to the determination of a court, medical examiner, coroner, jury, or other judicial body."

Uhhh... HOLD the presses (and superficial conclusions)!

PLEASE NOTE: the FBI figures are published pre-review by other authorities, including (most notably) judges and juries. What this means is that the police/FBI may "investigate" (and thereby add to the FBI "murder" statistics) a killing that is later ruled a "justifiable homicide," accident, suicide, or other non-murder.

The point is that it is very, very difficult to arrive at THE FIGURE that accurately represents exactly how many MURDERS (and murders ONLY) that are committed with a gun.

So, perhaps better than suggesting (or claiming that others are suggesting) that "The FBI is wrong," it would be better to actually delve into (rather than take a typically simplistic and superficial view) what all of the cited "murder" figures really represent. As in the case of this whole debate, "the facts" require some careful, thoughtful, and even complex analysis.

Even a pretty superficial analysis, however, indicates that the FBI statistics contain significantly inflated values for "murder," as these statistics (by the FBI's own definition) are pre-review and therefore "raw." And the FBI does NOT go back in time as these "investigation figures" are later vetted by courts and other agencies in order to correct the figures to properly reflect the final determination. So, the FBI figures are (and always will be) indeed RAW and thereby necessarily inflated.

I haven't taken the time to look into the many other studies, as I have better things to do with my life than a deep scholarly analysis of the research on gun-crime.

That's not a punt. Notice that in just this very brief overview I have shown what COULD be done to properly understand the figures various credible sites report. That's all I need to know to be confident that the figure of "12,000 murders" that you float all over this thread is entirely unreliable and certainly significantly inflated.

Your use of that figure reflects, yet again, a very superficial and over-simplified view of the data. The CDC figures are likely MUCH more reliable, and they cite a lower figure than does the FBI. Furthermore, their figure includes accidents and suicides by gun that the FBI's does not. So, the CDC reports a lower figure EVEN INCLUDING accidents and suicides by gun.

Furthermore, in 2009, the CDC reported that only 36.7% of gun-caused deaths were homicides (what the FBI would classify as "murder and non-negligent manslaughter"). Contrasting the FBI and CDC data produces a distant corollary of about 11,000 to 14,000 "homicides" by gun in 2009 or 2010. The BIG difference, however, is that the FBI figures are RAW, while the CDC figures are "cooked."

In short, according to the CDC, there were about 4000 ACTUAL "murders" by gun in 2009 or 2010 (the figures vary only slightly between these years). The rest of the about 11,000 (not 12,000) gun deaths were accidents or suicides.

I don't know, but to ME, 4000 murders by gun per year in a nation of 1/3 of a billion people just isn't something to get all worked up about. It's not NOTHING, but it's also not a NATIONAL crisis. As a NATION (rather than as state and local law enforcement agencies), we've got FAR bigger fish to fry!

(And don't ask me for more statistical analysis, because I've got better things to do than offer you a more thoughtful analysis of the data than you are willing to do for yourself. YOU have an ax to grind here, which I do not. So YOU are determined that the data must fit your view, which I am not. But if you would actually dig a bit into the figures, you would see pretty quickly (as I've just shown) that the numbers are not all slam-dunk up in da hood!)

My point remains constant: make any gun-sales laws you want. More power to you. I honestly, and I mean that, don't care. Such laws are pretty harmless (imho) and will prove to be as useless as they are harmless.

ALL I care about in this debate is what a tempest in a teapot it is, which diverts national attention away from the really pressing issues that face us as a NATION.

Let state and local law enforcement do what they do; gun control is a states-rights issue anyway (unless EVERYTHING suddenly falls under the interstate-commerce clause).

As a NATION this issue is statistically insignificant, and as a NATION we should be focused on other things. So, let's get the President and congress-critters back to work on some things that REALLY do matter to the NATION, such as the debt and the fact that it's about to make the dollar lose its place as the world's reserve currency.

These folks have MORE than enough to occupy their time just resolving that one. Let's not divert their attention away from it.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 5, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
fuk, I just sat on my left nut.
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