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hillrat

Trad climber
reno, nv
Apr 5, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
Few people really believe in the Constitution. They prefer to pick and choose, upholding the 2nd while trashing the 1st, or trashing the 2nd then suing to remove "under god".
But i suppose the devil is in the interpretation, isn,t it?

And that,s why we have the supreme court. And in gun law, they,ve ruled- individual right with reasonable restriction. Now what was that again about justification?
hillrat

Trad climber
reno, nv
Apr 5, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
whoa, you didnt just advocate the arrest of someone prior to committing a crime there did you ron?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 5, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
Because crime rate is a proven function of population density, and the UK is much more densely populated than we are.

And the fact that the crime rate is higher, yet gun murders are practically non-existent, refutes the gun nut paranoia that a gun black-market arming the criminals would result in mayhem.

Uhh... exactly my point. There are MANY metrics that go into crime rates of all sorts, including murders. So, the refutation you are talking about is actually making the opposite argument you claim it is.

You keep touting the 12,000 murder each year in the US, but you know that's not an accurate number. There are about 12,000 homicides, but that includes accidents, suicides, and actual murder. The actual murder figures are far, far lower than 12,000... probably more like 1/3 of that. And the vast, vast majority of those remaining murders are gang-related. In fact, we already HAVE a huge black market of guns that arm these gangs. The majority of these gang members could not walk into any store and buy a gun legally. So, the "mayhem" we do see is a demonstrable function OF the black market we have in guns. And that market would largely dry up if we got control of the GANG problem in this country.

By contrast, the UK doesn't have anything approaching the gang problem we have here, because they don't tolerate that crap under the rubric of "free speech." Unlike here, in the UK gangs don't flaunt their power.

In the USA, a tiny minority of the gun-holding population misuse their weapons. They are an identifiable minority, and we COULD get them under control if we had the will to do so.

(One big first step would be to legalize drugs. We could dry up most of the drug black market, drying up most of gangs' cash flow, and then devote the VAST resources we spend on the futile and utterly failed "war on drugs" into an actually successful war on gangs.)

And at that point, you'd see more like hundreds of gun-involved murders rather than thousands.

So, the whole "black market" argument is a red herring (on both sides of the debate), because, as always, the actual causality is much more subtle than either side wants to cope with. But we have a GANG problem in the US rather than a GUN problem.

Of course, you'll then say that even hundreds of murders is outrageous, and you'd compare that to the UK again, saying how out of proportion even hundreds of murders would be. After all, compare hundreds to 35! It's a "no brainer" that making guns harder to get would reduce that figure even more! Right?

But the real contrast should be how outrageous it is that there are ANY gun-related murders in the UK, when guns are illegal there, compared to the proportionally few in the USA where there are hundreds of millions of guns in circulation, and more people own guns in the US than the entire population of the UK. I mean, you can't even GET guns in the UK, right? Yet somehow hundreds of shootings and about 35 killings are still caused by guns. It's outrageous! Why can't they completely shut that crap DOWN???

Your responses so far just make my point all over again that you are cherry-picking numbers to make a very superficial and simplistic anti-gun point, when the actual reality is much more complex and involves a LOT more factors than gun-availability.

The sheer numbers of guns in the US, coupled with how easily available they ARE in fact makes the opposite case you would like, namely that our ACTUAL murder rate is amazing LOW compared to what you would expect in a "gun culture."

Solve the GANG problem in the US, and you largely solve the gun-related murder problem in the US. Solve the GANG problem here, and you'll bring other gun-related murders down into line with the per-capita rates in other countries such as the UK. And meanwhile, our total crime rate is a TINY fraction of theirs.

I'd still rather live here!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 5, 2013 - 05:26pm PT
HR,,,They already have. Identifying yourself as a member of a murderous criminal gang.. Much like ohwwww,, a Squad of N Koreans parachuting into the school yard BAAAHAHA! They are and have been identified. MOST are here illegally to begin with. Therefore are subject to the laws, just like you and me right??

If we were caught illegally in mexico and known to be a criminal element, do you think we would be left to roam the streets? (snicker)
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 5, 2013 - 05:37pm PT
Norton the Constitution now protects these illegals here. You know very well the amendments concerned. And further, the feds have standing policies issued by the obama admin that allow them to be here illegally as well and you know those as well- ive mentioned them many times previously.

Ron, again, I am pretty damn good on the Constitution from my law school days


I honestly don't know what you are talking about

for the third time, please state the section or amendment language that you are referring to

and now you throw out a new "fact", that the Obama Administration has issued "standing policies" that actually allow illegals to be here illegally

as President Obama has both greatly increased border funding, greatly increased border arrests, and also greatly increased deportation over any other President in US history, I honestly don't know what your "opinion" is fact base upon

can we try it again, please be specific, show the constitution language, political correctness "terminology" hurting enforcement, and also this new charge of yours regarding the President's new "standing orders", sources please

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 5, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
Norton the 2nd amendment is the premise mmmk?


And as for deportations, tell me why there have been none in the 900 some gang members KNOWN by leos here. At least until they are caught in a crime, then they are sent to jail to be "fed" by you and me. ( dig that pun!)
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Apr 5, 2013 - 05:41pm PT

as President Obama has both greatly increased border funding, greatly increased border arrests, and also greatly increased deportation over any other President in US history, I honestly don't know what your "opinion" is fact base upon

LOL! hahah!

first thing i think about is the "Fast and furious"...

don't forget about all those ponga boats full of refugees coming from encinada

Credit: pyro
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 5, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
The Feds put "aid stations" out in the canyons below Tuscon right now. Water, first aid kits blankets etc etc. All for the Illegal immigrants. They close off canyons due to being too dangerous due to illegals and smuggling activities as my brother found out the closing weekend of quail season.. A spot where a Veteran of thirty years went to hunt his game on US lands- could not access it due to govt orders from the US border patrol. Seems only illegal smugglers were allowed. My brother offered to collect them for them as he was equipped both long and short range means. They still refused him entrance to Federally owned lands..When asked how come THEY werent up in the canyon flushing them out, no answer was given. Just another, sorry sir, we cant allow you up there. And is ISNT too far from the Stronghold!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 5, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
The Feds put "aid stations" out in the canyons below Tuscon right now. Water, first aid kits blankets etc etc. All for the Illegal immigrants.

Says who?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 5, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
Said the US border patrol to my brother. havent you been listening,, googleguy ? Lots of libs in Tuscon,, it IS the LIB mecca of AZ, and they collect goods and water for them too.. Ive seen such wit mah own eyeballz. And the litter they leave behind from such.. Ive hunted all over S of Tuscon as one of my bros lives there.
hillrat

Trad climber
reno, nv
Apr 5, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
i dont think we want to do things here thd way mexico does them.
and most of the little bastards i,ve seen in gangs are us citz, like you n me, only young, stupid, uneducated, with drug-addled parents or none.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 5, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
Said the US border patrol to my brother.

You are fuking hopeless dude.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 5, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
ive long since given up on you wes. Coyotes hunting hogs BWAAAAHAHAHA1!



Aemadeo           sought for murder in Reno..
Aemadeo sought for murder in Reno..
Credit: Ron Anderson



Juan Manuel Sanchez  arrested in Reno for shootings  -known gang bange...
Juan Manuel Sanchez arrested in Reno for shootings -known gang banger
Credit: Ron Anderson


both these dudes are cold blooded killers..Im nothing like them HR. They were locals. Also from recent happenings here. For the previous three montsh, 69% of serious crimes reported by local news were committed by for the most illegal immigrants in the greater reno/tahoe area.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 5, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
Ground hogs, as in the first critter you mention, you fuking dumb ass.

You act like you are the only one who has seen or eaten wildlife because you spend all day stuffing them.

But what else can we expect from someone who thinks an unknown BP agent telling your brother something makes it a fact? Or that the opinion of one VA counselor, also your brother, accurately portrays the millions of mental health PROFESSIONALS in the VA system.


Tell us more about how the government is going to take your guns. Or how you need more ammo for the impending shootout in your parking lot.
hillrat

Trad climber
reno, nv
Apr 5, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
hey now, i didnt accuse you of that. just sayin theres plenty of US citizens who,ve chosen that lifestyle. ya aint gona deport them. and its not right to arrest them without commission of a crime. now if gang affiliation is a crime, then theres things that could be done. we cant just throw em in jail, aint enuf jails. and so far nobody seems willing to commit resources to fight socioeconomic conditions that make gangland attractive, so here we are stuck w em.

maybe start w free education. then maybe they wdnt have to steal n sling dope to eat.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 5, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
Well, wes, you can google, or you can see by being there. And as per usual youll choose google research over being there any day. My brother was denied access to a canyon hes hunted for years. He is a thirty year Nam era veteran and has every damm right to hunt that canyon as he has for over two decades. He pays taxes for that damm land and had fought for that damm land and got refused by border patrol to enter that damm land. Now you do the damm math.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 5, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
Well, wes, you can google, or you can see by being there.

Most illegal immigrants cross the boarder in CA, not AZ. I've spent hundreds of days working in the hills of SoCal. Some illegals used our sediment retention basins for shelter. Nice little fires, coals still warm when I got there. I can safely say I've been "there."

I can also safely say I'm not stupid enough to think my personal experience accurately reflects the situation at the boarder, unlike you.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 5, 2013 - 06:26pm PT
now if gang affiliation is a crime, then theres things that could be done. we cant just throw em in jail, aint enuf jails. and so far nobody seems willing to commit resources to fight socioeconomic conditions that make gangland attractive, so here we are stuck w em.

Now we're getting somewhere. Two forks here....

1) We're stuck with 'em. Okay, in that event, let's admit the "the gun problem" in this country is primarily grounded in our willingness to be "stuck with 'em."

2) We could do exactly what you suggest: address the socioeconomic conditions that make gangland attractive. A big part of that is the "attractive" aspect, which is almost entirely a function of the disastrous "war on drugs." Keep in mind that MOST poorer people do not turn to gangs. The "socioeconomic conditions" typically mean "economic conditions," which is indeed a factor. But the CHOICE of these gangbangers derives from the appeal of money and power.

Our jails are FILLED with non-violent "criminals" whose only "crime" is being part of the "drug culture," which is itself a pejorative term when there is no corresponding term for the "alcohol culture" in this country. Getting wasted on the weekends with beer is so normal and acceptable that vast amounts of money are devoted to advertising it (oh, yeah, with "drink responsibly" attached). But partying on the weekend with blow is a very, very, VERY bad no-no!

Ridiculous.

Clean out our prisons of these non-criminals (remember prohibition?), which would free up the space for this gang-banger trash. Stop the futile war on drugs (remember prohibition???), which would dry up most of the gangland revenue stream. And then start nailing asses to the wall!

If we can't have the national will to do this, then let's quit wringing our hands about "all the murder in this country" that is almost entirely caused by gangland America.

The best chance of success in any fight is to fight the fight where the fight actually is.
hillrat

Trad climber
reno, nv
Apr 5, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
mechrist, are the new NY mag bans essentially a confiscation of sorts? i realize its just a component, but hey- destroy it or sell it out of state- no option to keep it.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 5, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
Ain't really a confiscation unless they... uh confiscate it. My understanding is that it is a ban, not a confiscation. Nobody is actually taking them away from people, are they?


The best chance of success in any fight is to fight the fight where the fight actually is.

Unless of course you have drones and can fight in your boxers from a Lazy Boy.
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