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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 18, 2014 - 10:51am PT
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Once the vehicle stopped at an intersection, they used their last hostage – identified by CBS Sacramento as Misty Holt-Singh – as a human shield. She was killed in the gunfire.
Clever how they word that!
"Gunfire" killed the hostage. It just reached out all by itself and did the deed.
I want to know WHO shot her. The odds of it being a cop bullet are at least 50/50 and probably higher.
The guy teaching our CCW class is one of 8 people in Colorado certified to do firearms training for the LEOs, and he deals with hundreds of them. He's also a former cop himself. He told us flat out that most cops can barely pass their firearms qualifying and often need extensive work to make it: 2 shots, both within an 8-inch circle, both within 15 seconds, from 25 yards.
Sad!
My wife could do better than that after having shot a gun TWICE in her life. And I also would have no problem with such an "exam" at any time on any day. That "final exam" is NOT HARD!!!
That's the "high bar" that the cops have to get over? Well, it explains a lot....
Cops in a shooting situation OFTEN empty their entire magazines and hit nothing, then reload and still hit nothing. And it's 50% that a killed cop got killed by his/her own gun.
Could the (typically better-trained) public do WORSE in these situations???
Yes, I'd like to see the carrying public be even better trained and have to pass formal standards. But all the ones I know are far, far better, both tactically and in terms of marksmanship, than the average cop. They "self- police" themselves to a higher standard.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Jul 18, 2014 - 11:12am PT
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If universal background checks moved gun production out of the country, that would show just what a large proportion of the gun trade supplies the illegal market. The demand and profit margins for illegal guns is so disproportionately small compared with drugs, that while smuggled guns would come in, the volume would be dramatically lower than the current unlimited domestic supply. Guns are a lot of fun, but they aren't that addictive.
Comparing guns with drugs is even dumber that comparing guns with cars.
Lastly for this week, nowhere in the US constitution is there an onus to prove that any legislation will work prior to passing, even if that legislation restricts some perceived rights. There are thousands of laws restricting specifically enumerated rights that have withstood supreme court challenge, and some of those have likely achieved nothing: that is the "due process of law".
TE
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 18, 2014 - 11:15am PT
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"Comparing guns with drugs is even dumber that comparing guns with cars."
Prohibition is prohibition.
It didn't work then. ( booze ) It's not working now. ( drugs ) It won't work in the future.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Jul 18, 2014 - 11:19am PT
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As for cops training, our local crag is also the firing range for several local police forces (yes, that does cause some interesting problems). The spread of holes in that target used only from 10 yards is extremely troubling. Sure, cops should be trained far better, and paid far better, but nobody wants to pay for that. Perhaps a $500 impact fee on all firearms sales?
TE
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 18, 2014 - 11:38am PT
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Perhaps a $500 impact fee on all firearms sales?
Why on God's green Earth would firearms sales fund that?
I mean, this blithe suggestion gets right at the incommensurable paradigms point I made earlier.
Your presumption is that the very existence of firearms IS the problem, and the public having lots of access to firearms just makes that "problem" worse. So, of course gun-sales should fund cops.
The truth is exactly the opposite!
As the cops here flatly say, "An armed public makes our jobs easier!" And, as one sheriff here publicly said, "I wish that EVERY law-abiding citizen in Colorado was armed."
If you want to "fund" as you say is needed, try adding a surcharge to every bottle of alcohol sold. Try charging people a tax for NOT doing their civic duty and getting armed and trained. Try increasing the fines charged to criminals, in addition to their jail time.
The list could go on and on in legitimate fashion without once considering hitting up gun sales!
But YOU go straight at the least legitimate "solution."
Figures.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 18, 2014 - 11:49am PT
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It didn't work then. ( booze ) It's not working now. ( drugs ) It won't work in the future
booze and drugs are regulated
regulations aren't completely successful
Ergo totally deregulate booze and drugs? Sell booze to any age child? Serve booze in a bar to anyone too drunk to stand? Sell heroin and cocaine without prescription?
Is that your plan?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 18, 2014 - 11:50am PT
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Guns aren't regulated?
As far as booze regulations, many - maybe even most - are arbitrary and/or asinine.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Jul 18, 2014 - 11:56am PT
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Madbolter posted As the cops here flatly say, "An armed public makes our jobs easier!" And, as one sheriff here publicly said, "I wish that EVERY law-abiding citizen in Colorado was armed."
Yes here let's assume that your anonymous sheriff represents the views of all law enforcement as opposed to say the actual, publicly stated view of numerous actual law enforcement groups and agencies saying the opposite.
I wish EVERY argument could be won with sourceless, made up quotes!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 18, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
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I wish EVERY argument could be won with sourceless, made up quotes!
I'm sure you do; then you'd have a clear win.
My quotes, on the other hand, by stark contrast, are neither sourceless nor made up.
If you'd like, I'd be happy (and I mean that) to put you in touch with the range master to whom I referred, and he'd be happy to put you in touch with the dozens and dozens of LEOs in Colorado that I'm sure would be happy to set you straight.
Of course, you wouldn't want the straight scoop like that; it might threaten your cozy little paradigm. And, of course, you can always retreat to the idea that Colorado is filled with nut-job cops that don't know any better. Real LEOs "everywhere" fit your profile. Right?
Or do they?
Perhaps you've tuned into a vocal subset, and the real LEOs everywhere are much more like Colorado cops then you'd like to admit.
Oh, right, except for DC, NY, NJ, LA, and Chicago. Ooops! What's wrong with THAT picture???
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 18, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
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A quick story to help you along in your contemplation of what cops SHOULD want, even if they are too stupid to want it....
I'm in Cerritos picking up a pile of auto parts for my friend, John. As I get out of my truck, there are several obviously gangbangers hanging around the entrance. My foot no more than touches the ground when they are on their feet and sidling toward me.
"Hey man. You're not from around here. You need to think again before just touching down here like you own the place." Etc., etc.
I simply pulled back my shirt showing my .357 (wheel gun bitd), and I said, "Look. I'm just here on business. I've got a job to do, and then I'm out of here. None of us wants to have a bad day today, and there's no reason why any of us should."
Instantly they stopped, nodded in respect, and said, "Peace, man. Do your business and be on your way."
I nodded back, and that was it.
End of story. Violence AVERTED!
Sadly, I was packing illegally. Had I been packing legally and openly, the trash would not even have started the incident. Or, had I been packing legally and concealed, it would have played out exactly as it did. Either way, my being armed would (and should) have been a LEGAL way to deescalate the situation.
HOW many cops have been called out to clean up after incidents that did NOT deescalate?
Colorado cops recognize the principle my story exemplifies. Of course, they are all just nut-jobs, I guess.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jul 18, 2014 - 12:59pm PT
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And there are just as many stories where the escalating started with a gun.
In Florida you might get shot just reaching for your shirt, standing their ground and all that.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Jul 18, 2014 - 01:43pm PT
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I thought Libertarians loved voluntary taxes?
I'm all for hugely increased taxes on booze going to fund DUI enforcement/education. I don't DUI, and such a tax would disproportionally hurt me, yet I'm in favor of it. The difference between DUI laws and Gun laws is that nobody is calling for fewer DUI laws or higher legal limits.
While we all want cops to be better trained nobody wants to pay for it, why should I have to pay for training police when I'm not the one selling guns to criminals? The fact is that the majority of guns that cops end up facing were originally sold legally, and current laws make that process from shop to street corner a virtually risk-free enterprise.
It may not be fair, but it's a more fairly-targeted funding scheme than most taxes. Neither you nor I, nor your LEO friend can tell a law-abiding gun owner from a criminal one until its too late, so tax them all. How about a voluntary national gun registration scheme instead; $500 impact fee waived for owners willing to take responsibility for the destination of their guns?
So that's how law abiding gun owners act? You committed a crime by displaying that gun in a threatening manner, and those guys would have been absolutely within their second amendment rights to shoot you. How would that have felt? Thanks for the story.
I just got dragged back, darn.
TE
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A5scott
Trad climber
Chicago
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Jul 18, 2014 - 04:18pm PT
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Hey TE, you climb at Birdsboro? I know the police have a range there. Doesn't seem like the safest place to be. Quarry turned into a sport climbing pit. Pretty cool place. you ever climb at stover? Henry ave bridge? Livzey? Kelly drive? I miss philly, though i do visit from time to time
scott
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A5scott
Trad climber
Chicago
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Jul 18, 2014 - 04:21pm PT
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id=368372]
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 18, 2014 - 04:24pm PT
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You committed a crime by displaying that gun in a threatening manner, and those guys would have been absolutely within their second amendment rights to shoot you.
I've changed my mind. You're not worth responding to after this.
Do you REALLY think that just lifting a shirt to reveal a weapon is "displaying that gun in a threatening manner?" Really?
No, seriously! Are you KIDDING, or are you truly that far-out of an orbital module???
And you REALLY think that they would have been within their "second amendment rights to shoot [me]?" Are you actually serious? You can't be.
I mean, really. No WAY you can really think that.
But, amazingly, I think you are. And you CLAIM to have carried and be "pro gun?"
You apparently have NO idea the difference between "display" and "brandishing." Our instructor (who ALSO just happens to instruct the COPS, sheesh!) just yesterday actually advocated the very sort of thing I did in that sort of situation. The ONLY illegal thing I did was have the gun in the first place, and thanks to Cali's utterly stupid laws (which enabled these gangbangers to be armed but not an average citizen just going about his business!), everybody I knew went around illegally armed. AMAZING how the average armed citizen is just not involved in the epidemic of gangland shooting in Cali.
So, those guys had every right to shoot me just because I revealed that I had a gun, no hand on it, no hand near it, but just I HAVE it (just as would have been the case if I could have legally open-carried? Just the SIGHT of a gun, in your (insane) way of thinking justifies somebody to shoot???
Interesting how you, just like me, KNOW they were armed themselves. How else could they shoot me? You know it. I know it. The cops know it. But, again, Cali's stupid laws preclude the cops from a pat down just because they hang out in a threatening group with nothing better to do with their lives than intimidate innocent people.
And what was your suggested alternative? Take a beating? Get knifed? Get shot? All of the above?
Ohh... I should just not have been ALLOWED to go into a place of business and do what I needed to do. Yesss.... I could have called a cop. And I would have said WHAT on the 911 call? "Yes, there's some mean-looking guys hanging around the entrance. I think they have gang tattoos. I think I see that one of them is armed."
Yeah right. Do you really have ANY experience with this sort of crap at all?
Currraaaaazzzzyyyy!!!! I mean bat-droppings, straightjacket, googoo-eyed CRAZY!
If THIS is the society YOU want, then you can just move to Canada or England (and have your wife gang-raped, which happens to women there hugely more often as a per-capita rate than it does here). Here in the USA, law-abiding people have a RIGHT to go about their business without having to worry that some gangbanger trash is going to threaten and accost them.
And gangbangers DO respect a citizen with a gun. This I know for myself from long, long experience.
Okay, I'm done with all this nonsense. You anti-gun-nuts can just circle jerk yourselves and "know" that you "have the high moral ground" because you're "all about stopping the slaughter of innocent children" and all that other nonsense you've absorbed from the frantic media.
Meanwhile, the real killers of children will go completely unaddressed, and, as expected, there are NO threads here springing up about the real killers of children. Your inconsistencies are epic. And your causal chains are non-existent.
Plus, more and MORE people in America are getting armed, and remember: This thread hugely contributed to MY decision to do so.
Good luck, and have fun!
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jul 18, 2014 - 06:33pm PT
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Are you really that bat crazy to think they couldn't have shot you had they been armed, would of then been all their word agaisnt who's then? Deadman don't talk, in any state.
Yes you do have some dumbstruck cops in Co. If they think lethal force by a citizen to a situation you could of walked away from is a smarter option.
Your delusion of your self ingested superpowers is going get you shot, I hope no bystanders get caught in your fantasy showdown. Thanks for no help getting sensible gun legislation.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Jul 18, 2014 - 06:51pm PT
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madbolter posted My quotes, on the other hand, by stark contrast, are neither sourceless nor made up.
If you'd like, I'd be happy (and I mean that) to put you in touch with the range master to whom I referred, and he'd be happy to put you in touch with the dozens and dozens of LEOs in Colorado that I'm sure would be happy to set you straight.
Here let me show my enormous surprise that you "know a guy" who thinks that the solution to everything is people owning guns.
Madbolter continued I've changed my mind. You're not worth responding to after this.
Then responded:
Do you REALLY think that just lifting a shirt to reveal a weapon is "displaying that gun in a threatening manner?" Really?
No, seriously! Are you KIDDING, or are you truly that far-out of an orbital module???
And you REALLY think that they would have been within their "second amendment rights to shoot [me]?" Are you actually serious? You can't be.
I mean, really. No WAY you can really think that.
But, amazingly, I think you are. And you CLAIM to have carried and be "pro gun?"
You apparently have NO idea the difference between "display" and "brandishing." Our instructor (who ALSO just happens to instruct the COPS, sheesh!) just yesterday actually advocated the very sort of thing I did in that sort of situation. The ONLY illegal thing I did was have the gun in the first place, and thanks to Cali's utterly stupid laws (which enabled these gangbangers to be armed but not an average citizen just going about his business!), everybody I knew went around illegally armed. AMAZING how the average armed citizen is just not involved in the epidemic of gangland shooting in Cali.
So, those guys had every right to shoot me just because I revealed that I had a gun, no hand on it, no hand near it, but just I HAVE it (just as would have been the case if I could have legally open-carried? Just the SIGHT of a gun, in your (insane) way of thinking justifies somebody to shoot???
Interesting how you, just like me, KNOW they were armed themselves. How else could they shoot me? You know it. I know it. The cops know it. But, again, Cali's stupid laws preclude the cops from a pat down just because they hang out in a threatening group with nothing better to do with their lives than intimidate innocent people.
And what was your suggested alternative? Take a beating? Get knifed? Get shot? All of the above?
Ohh... I should just not have been ALLOWED to go into a place of business and do what I needed to do. Yesss.... I could have called a cop. And I would have said WHAT on the 911 call? "Yes, there's some mean-looking guys hanging around the entrance. I think they have gang tattoos. I think I see that one of them is armed."
Yeah right. Do you really have ANY experience with this sort of crap at all?
Currraaaaazzzzyyyy!!!! I mean bat-droppings, straightjacket, googoo-eyed CRAZY!
If THIS is the society YOU want, then you can just move to Canada or England (and have your wife gang-raped, which happens to women there hugely more often as a per-capita rate than it does here). Here in the USA, law-abiding people have a RIGHT to go about their business without having to worry that some gangbanger trash is going to threaten and accost them.
And gangbangers DO respect a citizen with a gun. This I know for myself from long, long experience.
Okay, I'm done with all this nonsense.
Not quite done apparently.
You anti-gun-nuts can just circle jerk yourselves and "know" that you "have the high moral ground" because you're "all about stopping the slaughter of innocent children" and all that other nonsense you've absorbed from the frantic media.
Meanwhile, the real killers of children will go completely unaddressed, and, as expected, there are NO threads here springing up about the real killers of children. Your inconsistencies are epic. And your causal chains are non-existent.
Plus, more and MORE people in America are getting armed, and remember: This thread hugely contributed to MY decision to do so.
Good luck, and have fun!
That's some impressive restraint. Someone without your calm, cool demeanor would have emptied their entire magazine but I can see that you're the type of person who can really pick and choose when a situation really calls for action and not fly off the handle.
If you aren't actually done I'd love to hear about your "long, long experience" with "gangbangers." Are there any other dog whistles you're long in the experience with?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jul 24, 2014 - 08:41am PT
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Real M1 or a replica?
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 08:59am PT
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Thanks Rom for bumping this, I would have missed his rant, and HDDJ's great response.
As for "brandishing":California Penal Code 417:
(2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of
any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or
unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any
manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is
punishable as follows:
(A) If the violation occurs in a public place and the firearm is a
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person, by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three
months and not more than one year, by a fine not to exceed one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.
You can be damn sure that if those nice law abiding citizens had lifted their vests to reveal pistols, you'd have considered it threatening.
TE
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 24, 2014 - 10:26am PT
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2 to 6K for an M1....now it's clear why they're referred to as "gun nuts." I was in the last US Army basic training unit to use M1's. They certainly were heavier than AR-15's.
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