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mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 1, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
blah blah blah blah... more bullsh#t.

At least Ron's drivel is short and to the point.


Smoke up Johnny
to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

or if you prefer
Ignoratio elenchi, also known as irrelevant conclusion, is the informal fallacy of presenting an argument that may or may not be logically valid, but fails nonetheless to address the issue in question.

either way, smoking has exactly NOTHING to do with gun legislation.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 1, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
I will continue to label gun murders as STATISTICALLY trivial. If you cannot distinguish between that and the fact that the individual events matter to the INDIVIDUALS affected, then your level of thinking is apparent to all candid minds.

As a nation we cannot expend effort on every possible front. We "go after" those things that have the highest cost/benefit ratio and are NATIONAL issues. We can do no other, because there isn't enough money in the world to "go after" everything. And we should only WANT the feds involved in those issues that cannot in principle be handled by state and local agencies. These (extremely few) mad gunmen start murdering people in one state while shooting from another state, and then you might have the slightest basis upon which to invoke the interstate commerce clause to justify the feds being involved (yet again).

This gun-control brouhaha is a tempest in a teapot, exploited for political gain, and it is NOT a statistically significant issue upon which to expend the national will. There are other CAUSES of needless death and suffering upon which to expend the national will, if you are determined to expend the national will on such things.

I guess my meta-argument has been a bit too subtle for some of you, so let me clarify.

I do NOT want the government going after yet more freedoms, particularly when the justifications they employ are OFTEN not statistically significant!

I don't want them going after drugs, smoking, alcohol, fat, large sodas, or, yes, even guns. I want them OUT of the vast majority of our individual decisions. I want them EFFECTIVELY pursuing actual criminals (as in, those past-tense committing crimes), and I want that happening on almost entirely a state and local level. I don't want any form of pre-crime legislation, as until a person actually does commit a crime it is impossible to even KNOW much less address what they did.

Liberty means risk. It means that some whack-jobs will have the means and opportunity to commit heinous acts. Once caught, they should be punished FAR more severely than most presently are.

Liberty means personal responsibility. You know, of the sort that 99.999 percent of gun owners exercise. And, again, those few that are not responsible, or are outright criminal, should be punished severely in proportion to their negligence or crime.

Liberty also means recognizing that things we don't like are gonna happen. We don't live in fear; we accept that things are gonna happen, and that the odds are low that they are gonna happen to us.

If there's one thing I am afraid of, it's a government that declares war! War on terror, war on drugs, war on illiteracy, war on pretty much anything. These "wars" in our modern era accomplish nothing but cost us all a lot of money, divert our attention from things that really matter and that are REAL threats to our way of life, and distort our perspectives until we are falling all over ourselves to trade in liberties for "security."

If you want less "caused death," then at least focus on the more statistically-significant things to declare yet more war on. I think we've got the gun-murder thing well enough in hand. I'm not worried enough about terrorism to be willing to open my entire life in every detail to the NSA (and neither should anybody else here be!).

Get the gun thing in proper perspective. That's all I'm advocating. Is this issue really worth expending the national will over? Don't we have better things to worry about, such as the fact that we're on the brink of the dollar ceasing to be the world's reserve currency? Could it be that while we're all in a froth about a few thousand gun-murders, our entire society is in danger?

You want a hobby horse to ride? At least choose one that really matters to us as a NATION of 1/3 of a billion people. Why don't you expend 1/10 of your present energies on something like what the NSA has been doing for over a decade and that has slowly leaked out (despite the outraged denials of two different administrations, including this one) and that is an utter violation of the rule of law? Why don't you get worked up about the rapidly declining value of the dollar, as we are the only nation on Earth that can "print our way out of debt," but that with the effect that our financial power in the world is precipitously declining? Why don't you go after smoking, which is FAR more useless and statistically significant than gun-murders?

Perspective. That's all I'm advocating. Oh, and genuine liberty with responsibility.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 1, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
NOTHING
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 1, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
Hey Toker Villian,, can you get 22 ammo over there? Here, one store had some,, .36 per round!??? Is it that ammo makers are to busy supplying the dept of weights and measures er sum such shyt? Im mean,, .22 fer craps sake!
hillrat

Trad climber
reno, nv
Apr 1, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
No, they're busy supplying all the "cool-aid" hoarders who think the supply is all dried up and are willing to pay five times what it's worth.

Hedge, you're an as#@&%e here, regardless of how you act in real life. Give me all the sh#t you want about using an avatar, but I noticed you didn't post your name and address here, or facebook, or anywhere else for that matter. Difference between us is that I try to conduct myself here in a similar manner as in real life; because there's a chance (and it's happened) that I might actually meet some of these fine folks out at the crag one day, and have a chance to climb, or grab a beer. Who knows? Point is, however you conduct yourself in real life, even your friends here feel the need to defend you by claiming how good and nice and humble you REALLY are.

Me? Well... sometimes I actually AM an as#@&%e.

John C,
Carson City, Nevada
still hoping to find the occasional partner, if I don't offend ya too much

edit: I'm also really a pretty nice guy in real life. Hedge is just an easy target.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 1, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
We joined WW2, and invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, and spent trillions, based on separate, one-time incidents which murdered 3000 people each.

LOL. I mean, really, ROFL!

YOU just made MY point! (Although, you have no business comparing WW2 to Afghanistan and Iraq! Talk about "no relation!" Sheesh.)

These (except WW2) are flagrant political hobby horses. or are you so blind that you literally inhale BS and say it smells like flowers?

We need perspective as a nation, and we've almost totally lost it.

We are divided about things that really don't matter, which keeps us from focusing our national will on those things that DO matter to us as a NATION.
hillrat

Trad climber
reno, nv
Apr 1, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
Oh, just a few days ago you were handing out chastisement for those not using their REAL names. Why not throw in an address or two? I mean, jeez...
hillrat

Trad climber
reno, nv
Apr 1, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
And hell, I saw you name on an actual climbing related post somewhere, then I noticed that you've sort of changed your perspective here...

so...

Maybe yer not so bad after all...?

You've just been so... single-minded for soooooo many posts...

Anyway... ciao for now.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 1, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
You failed.

Says you. LOL

Well, no more bytes on this topic. The point is made for open minds. Thank you for acting as my foil.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 1, 2013 - 07:36pm PT
The point is made for open minds.

That smoking a cigarette near someone is worse than holding them at gun point. Got it.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 1, 2013 - 07:39pm PT
Hillrat is right about hoarders, but while the price is up I use some of the 100K+ that I have in my basement for barter.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 1, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
Baahahahaaa biotch!!! eye-yaint given ya .36 per .22 !!!! I let ya know when i get desperate.;-).
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 1, 2013 - 07:46pm PT
What makes you think it will still be $.36 then?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 2, 2013 - 01:30am PT
Stupid ordinance, obviously. But it does raise an interesting federalism (or even state law) question- to what extent may citizens maintain a "well regulated militia"?

Could a regional group form a militia and assert a right to arm itself similarly to a modern military force? Certainly that is how it was when the constitution was written (also common were restrictions on personal use much more onerous than what we have today).

The NRA nuts and its fans get so wrapped up in doing the bidding of the gun industry-- which profits from people amassing their own personal arsenals to fight tyranny and thwart crime, but there are some big and interesting questions re the second amendment that will have to get answered at some point, and there is very little actual legal or historical scholarship.
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Apr 2, 2013 - 02:35am PT
WTF do you know about Civil Rights?

You're a fool.

Here, let these people educate you about "Civil Rights" and the god given rights of the "2nd Amendment".


mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
Wow, that room is PACKED. What HUGE event was that... with more people behind the podium than in the audience? A former Dallas Cowboys football player... does he have a name?... very impressive nonetheless.

Who is this god person they keep talking about? Sounds like he loves guns and has much clout... why doesn't he speak to the issue?

Sal, can you splain why their account of the founding of the NRA differs from what the NRA itself claims?


Get your panties all wound up good and tight over banning certain weapons (like grenades, bazookas, AR15, etc wherever you want to draw the arbitrary line), you may actually have a leg to stand on there, but I wouldn't bet on it. But stricter background checks, harsher penalties for straw purchasers, limiting purchases to 1 or 2 guns a year rather than a week, etc. does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to infringe on anyone's right to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 2, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
400,000,000 guns ( a very low figure) equals out to .00003 % of guns out there have been used in homicides annually..
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 2, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
where did this 400 million guns figure come from?

is that like the total in both North and South America, etc?

maybe throw in the South Pacific
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 2, 2013 - 01:32pm PT
Norton a common number used is 300M guns in circulation here. THAT FIGURE is far behind the actual numbers out there. Old guns never documented are in every collection i know of personally.


.00003 % of guns in circulation have been used in homicides/suicides..But yet the gubbmint wants to penalize the REST...non-sense at its highest level.

And of course, THOSE numbers are skewed by the fact that a good portion of those homicides are comitted by NON-citizens..Invading NON-citizens should be tallied as enemy combatants and NOT citizens.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 2, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
some interesting facts


In 2009, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, 66.9% of all homicides in the United States were perpetrated using a firearm.[5] There were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.[6] Two-thirds of all gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides. In 2010, there were 19,392 firearm-related suicide deaths, and 11,078 firearm-related homicide deaths in the United States.[7]

The Congressional Research Service in 2009 estimated there were 310 million firearms in the United States, not including weapons owned by the military. 114 million of these were handguns, 110 million were rifles, and 86 million were shotguns.[12] In that same year, the Census bureau stated the population of people in America at 305,529,237.[13] Data analysis of crime gun databases showed that 70% of guns recovered at crime scenes in Virginia were purchased within one year of the crime, suggesting that in some cases guns are purchased with the intent to commit a crime or murder.[8]


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