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Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 28, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
If you make legal access to firearms too hard, you'll end up making it much easier to get a gun.

Prohibition ALWAYS creates black markets.

The Black Market doesn't do background checks, or check I.D.s, or enforce *waiting periods*. No. The Black Market delivers right to your house, with just a phone call. Only question asked is "you have cash"?

Think through your plan again, Weschrist, and this time take The Law Of Unintended Consequences into consideration.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 28, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
If you make legal access to firearms too hard, you'll end up making it much easier to get a gun.


Yeah, that makes sense... since most guns on the streets get there through straw sales... you know, like any criminal who doesn't have a felony can legally buy one gun a month and sell it to their neighbor... no tracking, no followups, no reporting of high volume purchasers... the gun manufacturers like it that way, which is why they pay the NRA so much to lobby and brainwash morains.

No need to increase regulations/oversight...
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=129253&page=1#.UVR4NldvBao
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 28, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
And I can make a phone call or two and get as many guns as I can afford today. No paperwork. The Black Market is already up-and-running. Trust me. I've participated in underground trade on many levels.

You really want to give the Black Market a big boost? Give it a monopoly.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 28, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
And I can make a phone call or two and get as many guns as I can afford today.

Where did those guns originally come from? How did your seller get them?

Don't be a dumb ass. It has been shown the vast majority of guns on the streets (black market) come from straw sales or corrupt gun shops. Clearly stricter regulations and prosecution would slow down the flow of guns into the streets. If you can't see that you are a fool.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 28, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
yes, and the 499 other million guns have killed no one. Failry good track record considering. Not to mention guns prevent far more crimes and homicides per year than they commit.. FAR more.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Mar 28, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
Anderson is also the guy who says murder rates are going up and down at the same time, within 10 minutes.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 28, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
Of every 10 firearm homicide victims killed at the shooter’s residence:6 were intimate partners or family members, 3 were friends or acquaintances, 1 was a stranger.

One of 10 firearm homicides in the shooter’s home was considered justifiable (shooter was not an assailant).

http://www.apps.cdph.ca.gov/epicdata/firearms/gunownstore.htm
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 28, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
Weschrist,

Is it possible to use a gun defensively without shooting someone, or even firing it?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 28, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
According to FBI Uniform Crime Reports (UCR), in 2011 there were 12,664 murders and 653 justifiable homicides (of which 393 were performed by law enforcement) in the United States. Over previous years this reflects a decline in criminal homicide and an increase in homicides reported as justifiable (for 2008 UCR listed 14,180 murders, 616 justifiable homicides (of which 371 were by law enforcement). The UCR states that the justifiable homicide statistic does not represent eventual adjudication by medical examiner, coroner, district attorney, grand jury, trial jury or appellate court.[102] Few US jurisdictions allow a police crime report to adjudicate a homicide as justifiable and in any given year fifteen to twenty states do not report such statistics to FBI UCR, resulting in an undercount in the UCR table. The vast majority of defensive gun uses (DGUs) do not involve killing or wounding an attacker, with government surveys showing 108,000 (NCVS) to 23 million (raw NSPOF) DGUs per year,[103] with ten private national surveys showing 764,000 to 3.6 million DGU per year.[104]
[edit]Politics





So go ahead anti gun knutts- coo-coo-ca-chew on those figures.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 28, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
also from Wikipedia,, 2/3 of gun deaths in the US are suicides..
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 28, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
Monolith,

Is it possible to use a gun defensively without shooting someone, or even firing it?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 28, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
Allow me Chaz,, the wiki figures are a minimum of 108,000 times per year a gun is used to thwart crime without being fired.


just who are you mono.. I stand by my name..
frank wyman

Mountain climber
montana
Mar 28, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
"Self Defense" is justly called the primary law of nature, so it is not, neither can it be in fact, taken away by the laws of society" -Sir William Blackstone-
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 28, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
just curious..I didnt expect an answer.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Mar 28, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
Not the answer you demand, sorry. Now get back to debating the facts.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 28, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
Chaz, of course it is possible and I fully support responsible citizens using guns for personal protection.

Now your turn...

When YOU buy a gun off the black market, how do you think that gun originally made it onto the black market? Other than a minor inconvenience, why would any sane person oppose stricter regulation on gun shop record keeping and/or accountability for straw purchasers?


Follow up... if there had not been video of that road rage incident in NC, do you think that would have qualified as "defensive use of a weapon?" I'm guessing a redneck and his well dressed wife vs. a few teenage punks would result in a "yes" from most gun nuts. Sometimes I wish people would record that sh#t and then wait until the last possible minute to reveal the truth, just to show how stupid/blind/ignorant some of the pro-gun nut people are.
frank wyman

Mountain climber
montana
Mar 28, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
"Well I can assure you young man, that neither my companion or I carry firearms on our person. We rely upon the goodwill of our fellow man, and the forbearance of reptiles" -English Bob-
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 28, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
Wes the black market has many sources,, the US, China, Russia, Belgium, Turkey, India, Switzerland, etc..

One of the first encounters i ever had with the true black market was in a bar in Carson. They were all chinese ak-47s, fully auto. They did not come from straw sales, but rather smuggled arms. Arms smuggling is the number one commodity of that market as well as the legal markets world wide.



edit: Nice one Frank lol!






edit: Wes,,, stricter record keeping for gun shops??? HUH??

They keep DETAILED records required by law. Your name, ssn, eye color, hair color, age and race all specified. The exact model and serial number of gun purchased as well.. What more can they record??

In fact, it is the FEDERAL level that falls short of record keeping, as a brady check doesnt even require the model of the gun, just a long gun or hand gun. But those locally kept records are available 24/7 to law enforcment..


mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 28, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
Ron, the black market has 2 sources that supply the vast majority of guns used in crimes. You didn't list either one... you listed countries.

1) Corrupt gun stores that should be required to keep better records and be held more accountable when they don't. Minimum of ~28%

2) Straw purchases, which should be watched more closely and prosecuted more severely. For example, anyone buying more than 1-2 gun per year (rather than per month) should arouse suspicion. Minimum of ~40%


The majority of the remaining 30% come from theft (irresponsible gun owners improperly storing their guns).
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Mar 28, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
73K gun injuries in the US in 2010.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/23/facebook-posts/do-people-get-shot-every-year-facebook-post-says/

http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/nfirates2001.html
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