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tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Mar 8, 2013 - 09:29am PT
I'm wondering what the facts are about changing the gun laws in a country with as many guns as the US.


What if you do ban and collect them all? Then quit using them to protect the president, congress, banks.





jhedge. Tell me. If you did make the law, you had the option to enforce it and make it happen, even use men with guns to enforce it - tell me how many gun crimes you would expect to see from there on out.


You think the president would be more safe if he wasn't protected by men with guns anymore?


You think banks would have less robberies?



Do you think a change from the country in the world with the most gun ownership and a hell of a lot of gangs, end-user drug and crime groups to the country with no legal firearms by non-special intrest groups (military) would be a change that a president would risk taking?





Do you really think that?









I do agree with you that fewer to no guns is better than guns. No killing is better than killing.

I don't agree that you can create a better world in the US by creating a new reality that involves good guys being unarmed leaving criminals as the only armed ones. If that had been the policy from the start, something the founding fathers put in place with the constitution and when they got rid of british taxes and fought them off, they had thrown the last of their guns on the boats to go back with the british - THEN, then I would think things could be different. But the reality is, your fellow countrymen just aren't going to play into your fantasy of giving up their unfettered access to guns.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Mar 8, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
If you can take them away from criminals, why not JUST take them away from criminals? Why not start there?


Do that effectively, FIRST. Rid yourselves of crime. Heck, take every weapon away from every criminal.




Then you will have eliminated your problems. More laws, rules and hog-tying of your own citizens will not give you the same results of taking weapons from criminals. Since you have already started, and other countries have done it, finish it. Then tackle another job.



BTW, you seem so sure that America is just like every other country, how many others have you lived in? What makes you so sure of this? I used to think that as well, until I spent 10 years living outside of my own country. However, I'm sure you can convince most of your fellow countrymen of this since a lot of them haven't lived abroad either. You can take the girl out of the trailer park, but you can't take the trailer park out of the girl...
Stefan Jacobsen

Trad climber
Danmark
Mar 8, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
@jghedge:

Thanks for the statistics on wikipedia. It linked to another interesting one, according to which in the US you have 88.8 civilian owned guns per 100 residents compared to 12 in Denmark. From my point of view that's stunning, as I thought you guys had like 10 guns per 100 residents and we had less than 1.

No matter I was off by a factor of 10, the sheer difference in gun numbers between our countries must account for the higher gun related death rate in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 8, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
"Same thing here. The gun death rate for Caucasian non Hispanics is about the same as Denmark."


Nope. That's a lie - and a stupid one at that.

In fact it's much higher.


http://www.vpc.org/studies/hispone.htm

Shows the US gun murder rate for white caucasians at 4 per 100,000

In Denmark it's .22

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate


Proven wrong again.


Stick to wingnut fantasies, TGT - facts shoot you down every time.

Those statistics don't add up.
The Wiki webpage shows the US gun homicide rate at 3.2/100,000. That's not broken down by ethnicity, but obviously it will be much lower for what you call "white caucasians" (sort of a strange redundancy).
Still won't be able to get it down to Denmark's rates, but it's low enough so that most white people don't have any real fear of being murdered with a gun--just something that's extremely unlikely to happen.

Much higher murder rates among "disadvantaged minorities" is a problem, but one that most white people probably don't want to try to solve by unilaterally disarming themselves.
Stefan Jacobsen

Trad climber
Danmark
Mar 8, 2013 - 02:47pm PT
@Bruce Kay:

Apparently we don't need penis extensions to the same degree. On average the US penis size is 5.1 inches while ours are 6 inches.

http://www.targetmap.com/viewer.aspx?reportId=3073
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 8, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
time for bottom line update on likely Federal legislation


looks like nothing to get worked up about, at all

by the time the Senate and House are done with it and the President signs it, there will be much harsher penalties for "straw buyers" buying guns for people that cannot pass background checks on their own

also, "universal background checks" will be extended to include gun shows and all private sales with the exception of between close blood relatives

large purchases of ammunition will be more closely tracked for law enforcement clues

looks like there will not be any limitations on magazines or any banning of weapons

all in all, pretty benign legislation that will look like something was done but likely will do nothing to mitigate mass slaughter

mass firearm murder is the tradeoff we will continue to pay to protect our "freedom and liberties" under the Second Amendment

but that's ok because I love my guns and the only thing stopping a bad guy with a gun is a good gun with a gun

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 8, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
If you can take them away from criminals, why not JUST take them away from criminals? Why not start there?

Nobody is taking anyone's guns away.

Google "straw purchases" the number one way criminals get guns. Then google "straw man" and see if you can figure out how that describes pretty much every argument you have presented (i.e. using guns to protect the president, etc etc)


Funny, if you step away from this thread for a while it because much more apparent just how fuking stupid you all sound.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 8, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
Well wes,, one thing for sure is a skunk cant change his stripe, as evidenced by the last sentence in your post.






mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 8, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
My last sentence is supported by empirical evidence. People are STILL talking about the government taking guns as if that might happen, still talking about Chicago as if that is representative of anywhere else in the country, and still suggesting that since the president is protected by guns everyone else should be... including our kids in schools.

All the while ignoring the FACT that stricter background checks, limits on gun purchases (currently no more than 2 a week?), and gun registration will significantly reduce the number of straw purchases and hence criminals with guns.

I'm sorry you can't see how fuking stupid that all sounds.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 8, 2013 - 04:41pm PT
mine and about 599,999,980 OTHER guns have nothing to do with any of it- i hope you know how ridiculous THAT sounds.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 8, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
i hope you know how ridiculous THAT sounds.

That does sound stupid. Which is why I'm perplexed by the fact that you keep bring it up. Your guns are not the issue and nosanebody ever said they were.

The way the laws are currently enforced, your desire for easy access to sporting goods results in criminals having easier access to guns. It ain't rocket science.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 8, 2013 - 04:50pm PT
criminals,, have had access to guns since they were invented. Black markets were born in the revolution here.

Since we became an open door to all of the world,, the influx of undocumented and illegal weapons has been steady. Guns are the NUMBER ONE commodity of world trade. It isnt just a HERE problem.

And Yes Wes there are several states with laws being proposed to take many guns away from many innocent and good people. Cali being one of em. If Fienstien has her way down the road, Sacto will be sieged upon.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 8, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
criminals,, have had access to guns since they were invented. Black markets were born in the revolution here.


blah blah blah. That has nothing to do with gun regulations. Put your straw man back in your pocket.

The vast majority of guns used in crimes are purchased legally. Only a small percentage of those guns make it onto the streets by way of theft. The vast majority are sold by original (legal) purchaser to people who cannot purchase them legally. Stricter background checks, stricter record keeping requirements, and stiffer penalties for illegal sales will do NOTHING to hurt legal gun owners like yourself.

Have a nice day Ron.
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Mar 8, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
jghedge -got to be some back story on this guy. Wine at the kitchen table does not merit drawing on the wife's guest.

Shooter had a separate residence from his wife and was a
USFS employee it said so he had free health care.
First thing is find out what kind of prescription drugs
his doctor had him on.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 8, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
Why is that the first question to ask? He did not use the drugs to kill anyone? Why wouldn't the first question be "where did he get the gun?"

If was determined that he got it legally, the second question would be what prescription drugs was he on and WHY THE FUK was he allowed to own a gun while taking crazy drugs?
Heyzeus

climber
Hollywood,Ca
Mar 8, 2013 - 08:14pm PT
Uhmm, can't believe you guys didn't make hay of this. I realize I'm mostly invisible on here, but here it is again for those that missed it and might find it worthy-

http://www.freep.com/article/20130305/FEATURES01/130305010/Gun-violence-annual-cost-12-billion

Gun violence annual cost: $12 billion

USA TODAY


WASHINGTON Gunshot wounds and deaths cost Americans at least $12 billion a year in court proceedings, insurance costs and hospitalizations paid for by government health programs, according to a recent study.

"I think people probably don't understand that as well as they ought to," said Ted Miller, author of a study that found that gunfire deaths and injuries incur a direct societal cost of $32 per gun.

About 20 years ago, Miller calculated the costs to society of shooting injuries and deaths with funding from the National Institute of Justice. He decided to run the numbers again this year after the shooting at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn.

"I was surprised," Miller said. "Back in 1994, the costs of drunk driving were substantially higher, but it has reversed."

Miller found that total costs per injury had at least doubled or come close for medical care, psychiatric care, court cases, insurance and emergency transport. For example, in 1992, medical care for a fatal shooting averaged $14,500. In 2010, that number reached $28,700.

He found that medical care in 2010 cost $3.2 billion for 105,177 deaths and injuries. In 1992, medical care cost $3 billion for 171,800 deaths and injuries, including 31,674 BB gun shootings, which were not included in the 2010 numbers.

According to government statistics analyzed by Miller for the Pacific Institute for Research and Evaluation, costs to the government in 2010 broke down this way:

$5.4 billion in tax revenue lost because of lost work

$4.7 billion in court costs

$1.4 billion in Medicare and Medicaid costs for firearm injuries and deaths

$180 million in mental health care costs for gunshot victims

$224 million in insurance claims processing

$133 million for responding to shooting injuries

Miller also found that Medicaid covers 28% of hospital admissions for firearm injuries, 37% of hospital days and 42% of medical costs. But in another study, he found that even if people weren't on Medicaid when they were injured, about 8% ultimately enroll in Medicaid after their injuries. "So about half of the medical costs borne by Medicaid may be the best estimate," he said.

A 2012 study by the Vanderbilt Medical Center in Nashville found that 79% of gunshot victims in greater Nashville were enrolled in Medicaid. That compared with 45% of Medicaid enrollment for all other emergency room patients. African-American patients were three times more likely to be gunshot victims than were white patients, the study showed.

Manish Sethi, a trauma surgeon at Vanderbilt University and a researcher for the study, said his team decided to look at the numbers after seeing "a bunch of African-American kids with gunshot wounds" coming through the emergency room. "We have to do something."

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 8, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
Thats hardly a representative study^^ They dont even mention encarseration costs deportations etc etc.


Illegal immigration cost Cali last year: 10 Billion dollars.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 8, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 8, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
Stefan Jacobsen, after seeing Green Butchers I feel safer in the US than in Denmark.
Heyzeus

climber
Hollywood,Ca
Mar 8, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
Incarceration is under "Criminal Justice".
http://www.pire.org/documents/GSWcost2010.pdf

Here's the organization, if you want to take them apart: http://www.pire.org/
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