The Gun debate sandbox


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Mar 1, 2013 - 01:50am PT
Why don't you guys take this to an appropriate forum? Don't have the guts? Or you don't have the guts to shut up? What's your problem?

Each and every time ANY of you bump this thread, you bring down the climbing stoke in this joint. Pathetic.

And if you want to say "just ignore it" well, maybe I could, but when a bunch of old white dudes keep waving their scrawny old dicks in your face, it's just NASTY.

You disrespect CMac, you disrespect Big Mike, you disrespect a lot of us.

Go dry hump each other somewhere else. Thank you.

Trad climber
reno, nv
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:53am PT

"35 gun deaths in the UK last year

12,000 in the US

Guns are outlawed in the UK.

Those are facts, not opinions, boys.

Can't handle the truth? Think shooting a gun makes those numbers less real, or less relevant?

Better think again, kids."

How many times are you going to post that broken record sh#t? MOVE ON.
Admit it... you're high right now.

Trad climber
reno, nv
Mar 1, 2013 - 02:04am PT
I only post when this is on the top page. Count the number of times jhedge has posted... the same thing... in the same format... over... and over.... and over... and over.... and over... and over... and over....

It's relevant for some of us who carry in the back country. It's relevant when you consider how easy it is for places like Auburn Quarry to be shut down for no apparently good reason (as in that is not constitutionally protected) and what a considerable fight continues for a constitutionally protected right, especially when you consider what you may face when regulation comes to your favorite crag. It's as relevant as the questions about climbing ethics and style, and whether it's appropriate to take a rack on a chukar hunting trip to the middle of nowhere, Nevada, or what kind of threat you face from the local target shooters out by the cliff side.

This is not ego stroking, it's not disrespectful to bump the thread when there's some intelligent argument or debate to be had. It doesn't disrespect CMac or Supertopo when climbers discuss other issues or aspects of their lives outside of climbing in a manner that fosters thought and intelligent debate. Indeed, it would be interesting to hear some of the opinions of the climbing legends who participate here... though I doubt they'll be likely to weigh in much, on such a hot-topic subject when it's so clearly fueled by emotion, bullsh#t, and ignorance that overshadows anything reasonable. Such is life in the public eye... learn to watch your ass first.

Trad climber
reno, nv
Mar 1, 2013 - 02:32am PT
"And as I've posted many times (and literally never gotten an answer to(, if anyone has any ideas on how to get our gun deaths down to the level opt countries that have outlawed them, I'd be glad to listen.

So far, though, outlawing them is the only proven tactic that works."

No... outlawing guns is the only solution you're willing to accept, and you point to the government of some other country as if it's the cure-all solution to a single line-item issue in this one. Wow. That's like comparing guns to cars. In fact, judging from your recent posting history, it's about the only thing you care about on this climbing website in, oh, say the last six hundred posts that you've made.

Furthermore, you've openly stated that you'd be willing to consider anyone who refused to turn in their weapons to be in "armed insurrection" against this country, with all subsequent consequences. You even openly stated you'd be willing to trade the lives of those people for the lives of the approximate 12,000 you list as victims as a "fair trade".

So in direct contradiction to your own repetitive rantings here against gun violence, you're willing to kill anyone who would not disarm themselves in response to total governmental confiscation, instead of following standard legal procedure. Additionally, while you fully use the first amendment to your personal benefit, you willingly ignore the second and would be willing to toss whatever others would get in your way relative to elimination of the second, all while painting yourself as a good American poster-boy for the liberal contingent.

Instead, much like our idiot vice president, you make a great argument for why we shouldn't be passing any new restrictions at all.

Biden advises his wife to fire a shotgun off the front porch without identifying a target.... Yeah... That worked GREAT when Cheney did it. And you seriously believe these people are going to lead us to a great solution... Good luck with that.

Now.... Copy, quote, and rebut... just like all your other posts. It's your formula. And answer the goddam question... What's your drug of choice? Or are ya just too chickenshit to admit it?

Trad climber
reno, nv
Mar 1, 2013 - 02:38am PT
Fact: I put food on my family's table with my firearms.
Fact: I've never shot anyone with my firearms.
Fact: I've shot AT someone once, returning fire when they fired on me from across a canyon.
Fact: I personally know other people who have defended their own lives and their family's lives with their firearms.
Fact: Most of the firearms deaths you like to quote are, in fact, suicides that would likely be carried out by other methods.
Fact: Mexico outlaws firearms. Tell me, if they've done the same as jolly old England, why is it not working there?
Fact: The United States Supreme Court has ruled that we, the American people, have a RIGHT to own firearms, with reasonable restrictions. Therefore, your theory of ban and confiscate is not viable within united states law. Period.

Oh sorry, are those inconvenient for you?

Trad climber
reno, nv
Mar 1, 2013 - 03:06am PT
"What "standard legal procedure" are you referring to?"
Uh, arrest, court, prosecution, fine/jail.

"And why are gun owner's lives more important than the innocent victims of gun violence?"
Why do you consider gun owners less valuable? You fight for the victims by trading those you consider worthless? Nice.

"And again - do you have any suggestions whatsoever as to how to get our gun deaths down to the level of countries that have outlawed them?"
Hello Mexico! Care to address that?
I offered compromise and reduction WAYYY up thread, which you promptly ignored. You're solution is bunk. It's not legal in this country. Come up with something legal, that works, and maybe the rest of us will consider it. Until then, you're spouting bullsh#t.

"You complain about debate supposedly fueled by emotion, bullshit and ignorance, then offer nothing but that. Facts, stats, historical data? Nothing but asking me if I'm high? Really?"
You haven't answered yet.
So... my personal life experience means nothing. Good to know. None of my facts were worthy to you. Also good to know. Have you been to England? I have. And France, Belgium, Holland, Austria, Germany, Italy, Hungary, Mexico, Australia, and New Zealand.
But you just go on ahead and consider me a worthless gun nut in spite of my willingness to compromise, and desire to reduce violent crime. Just because I don't cow down to your way of thinking.

"Why even bother?"
Because your superiority complex is giving me hives. I want to see what else you've got to offer, and so far, it's repetition and disappointment.

Trad climber
reno, nv
Mar 1, 2013 - 03:12am PT
You know dude, there's another whole great big world of other things to do and talk about. You have fun here on the gun thread, and I'll come visit you next week to see how... pardon me... IF you've progressed.

Trad climber
reno, nv
Mar 1, 2013 - 03:20am PT
"Not lending the anecdotal stuff too much credence, I'm afraid..."

Oh? F*#k you then. If my life's experience is not worthy of your consideration, then neither is your opinion worthy of my time.

You're here to convince people your solution is correct. Why else would you bother?

"Try getting your stats about gun suicide vs homicide straight, and you might do better next time.

You failed tonight"

No sir, you failed. You discounted all I've said based on my lack of following up on your statistic and you point to that as your big moral victory, your evidence of superior intelligence?

You've utterly convinced me your opinion has no merit.


Trad climber
reno, nv
Mar 1, 2013 - 10:37am PT
Never once did I dispute 35 deaths in a single year in England, as referenced by you repeatedly. I called your opinion crap, but you clearly cant comprehend the difference. You failed to address the failure of Mexico,s ban in preventing gun homicides there.

You really want me to take the time to research the issue? Ok.
But I can tell right now there are no facts you wont ignore that contradict your opinion. You,re not debating, you,re preaching.

FACT- The UK ALLOWS firearm ownership, albeit with strict regulation. What was that you were saying throughout this thread? You yourself cannot get even your most basic argument correct mr hedge.

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Mar 1, 2013 - 12:30pm PT

Just another ignorant person spouting hate and lies for what they don't understand or know.

Classy. I don't hate guns, or gun owners, I know how much fun guns are, and how dangerous they are. I owned guns for many years and joined the military primarily to shoot guns that were illegal where I lived. Two of the guns I owned were used in the insurgent revolution that gave my country independence. I acknowledge a right to self defense. I don't want to outlaw all guns, just sensible limitations on dealers and owners which would reduce the immoral level of gun violence in this country.

Lies? You call me a liar, show evidence to the contrary, but the first twenty google pages will support my statement. The US supplies a good chunk of the world's illegal handguns, and yes, some of those not manufactured in the US do indeed get shipped here, diverted from the legal market and re-exported.

I did find one case of someone smuggling guns into the US - it was easier for the Zetas to smuggle guns into Texas then back to Mexico again rather than cross the territory of a rival gang.

Ignorance? Priceless.


the Fet

Mar 1, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
I don't hate guns, or gun owners, I know how much fun guns are, and how dangerous they are. I owned guns for many years

Same here. I think that easy access to high capacity military weapons and handguns isn't as important as keeping them away from dangerous people who kill innocent people with them. But then I'm not a right wing ideologue or a gun nut.

Social climber
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
I suppose one should consider non-cartel related gun deaths in Mexico in order to accurately consider whether that country's gun ban works or not. Sort of a dumb comparison otherwise.

Dave Kos

Social climber
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
I owned guns for many years and joined the military primarily to shoot guns that were illegal where I lived.

There is a very clear correlation in these debates between those who have served in the military and a position supporting reasonable regulations of weapons designed for military purpose.

One one side we have the Ted Nugents.

On the other side we have Americans who have demonstrated a genuine commitment to the defense of our nation against actual threats.

It is comical that some here claim extraordinary credibility because of their amateur experience.

Why let our veterans have a voice in such an important issue as firearms regulations?

We must defer to the wisdom of the PLINKERS!

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
I suppose one should consider non-cartel related gun deaths in Mexico in order to accurately consider whether that country's gun ban works or not. Sort of a dumb comparison otherwise.

That's fine. The corrolary would be to separate out gang and non gang violence in the US. From

"There are approximately 1.4 million active street, prison, and OMG gang members comprising more than 33,000 gangs in the United States. Gang membership increased most significantly in the Northeast and Southeast regions, although the West and Great Lakes regions boast the highest number of gang members. Neighborhood-based gangs, hybrid gang members, and national-level gangs such as the Sureņos are rapidly expanding in many jurisdictions. Many communities are also experiencing an increase in ethnic-based gangs such as African, Asian, Caribbean, and Eurasian gangs.

Gangs are responsible for an average of 48 percent of violent crime in most jurisdictions and up to 90 percent in several others, according to NGIC analysis. Major cities and suburban areas experience the most gang-related violence. Local neighborhood-based gangs and drug crews continue to pose the most significant criminal threat in most communities. Aggressive recruitment of juveniles and immigrants, alliances and conflict between gangs, the release of incarcerated gang members from prison, advancements in technology and communication, and Mexican Drug Trafficking Organization (MDTO) involvement in drug distribution have resulted in gang expansion and violence in a number of jurisdictions."

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
Everybody supports sensible limitations and reasonable regulations. Not just military vets.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
Everybody supports sensible limitations and reasonable regulations.

Does "everybody" include you?

Let's hear about the regulations that you support.

Soldiers of the plinker army, sound off!

Social climber
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
Fair enough, Ksolem.

I think the best gun control would be strict tort liability. One can purchase whatever gun one wants (with in reason), but if that gun ends up out of your hands and is involved in a crime, then you are strictly liable for the resulting wrongful death / personal injury damages. I bet folks would be much more careful about to whom they sell guns.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
let me ask a couple of obvious questions.

The govt is buying and storing massive amounts of hollow point,, NON-target loads at such locations as IRS and SS offices. They are also buying weapons of the FULLY auto variety. This is being done for a reason. WHAT is that reason?

Why have they now come up with new laws that can be used against our own citizens?

Why do we now discuss DRONES flying over US soil??

Why does mainstream media IGNORE this all???

Why are LEOs and Military/Natl guard members TALKING about NOT engaging in ANY actions against the good citizens of this country now!????

In my time ive never seen any of the like. Never thought i would. But its here, now.

Across the country , local LEOs are speaking out about this, and NONE of them will support any "confiscation" of weapons from law abiding citizens.
Many go further by saying they will not allow any such actions by the FEDS either. Some states already have laws on the books prohibiting the FED govt from enforcing any gun laws, while others have petitions to withdraw from the Union.

In Cali,, they have proposals to confiscate countless weapons from law abiding citizens, and dont think for one teensie moment that they will do so voluntarily. Cali is FULL of dedicated shooters and hunters by the tens of thousands, and NOT ONE will ever give up weapons they legally acquired.

Even worse is the using of such tragedies as Sandy Hook, which weve NOT been told the truth about. Within 24 hours of that incident, there was a concentrated effort to begin removing guns from LAW ABIDING CITIZENS. Guns and folks who had nothing to do with any such incident.

Why would a GOVT seek such blanket policy AGAINST the Constitution and its people? And DONT tell me its over concern for the people. The govt has been using the people as guinea pigs for decades.. "You will see a large flash,, do not be alarmed"...

Why is it that LEOs and Military are saying HELL NO to all those confiscation suggestions?

new world order2

Mar 1, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
Very good questions, Ron.

Alls I can say is...So goes the new world order.
Most everyone is living in the Matrix. They've been dupped into believing everything the media and government tells us, is the truth. Far from it.

photo not found
Missing photo ID#269454

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Mar 1, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
Everybody supports sensible limitations and reasonable regulations. Not just military vets.

Gun owners apparently don't, because their de facto mouthpiece opposes background checks, so unless gun owners find a new way to express themselves, letting the NRA do the talking is going to hand the next election to the democrats.


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