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Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:16am PT
Just a lag in response Crimpie?

The gang/illegal shootings as you say are often impossible to track,, one dead mystery body in an alley with zero suspects is not listed as gang violence correct? Often times those are attributed to possible drug deals also? ( Which could easily be a secondary to gangs?)
jghedge

climber
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:17am PT
"I posted way upthread stats about gang violence. They are a tiny tiny part of national violence."


Sorry Rong - you've been proven wrong again, by a criminology prof, no less.

2 choices: Man up and admit you're wrong

Or keep blathering on like the ignorant little child you've proven yourself to be.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:18am PT
What is the number one "cause" of handgun death in America?

I know the answer, curious if any of you do also, no fair looking it up!
jghedge

climber
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:19am PT
" Often times those are attributed to possible drug deals also? ( Which could easily be a secondary to gangs?)"


Hahahahaha - doesn't get any more pathetic than that.

Man up, fool.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:28am PT
"But the numbers, best we have them are there."




That is what Crimpie said..^^^^^^


Watch the bay area news and tell me that.. TWO DIFFERENT takes is what youll see. Ive discussed with length the reporting short comings with Crimpie also...

The FBI doesnt even now the model or serial number of any gun sold. All they ask for is long gun or hand gun in any backgrnd check. They DO REQUIRE you to identify yourself as hispanic or non hispanic, as well as your "race" in another block.



Tell me WHY when after marking "white" in the race box,, do i ALSO have to check either hispanic or non-hispanic? WHY would the FBI require such a tally? Think on that for a second or two.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:32am PT
What is the number one "cause" of handgun death in America?
jghedge

climber
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:33am PT
"Tell me WHY when after marking "white" in the race box,, do i ALSO have to check either hispanic or non-hispanic? WHY would the FBI require such a tally? Think on that for a second or two."


Hahahaha, nothing there but racist gibberish, and not man enough to admit being wrong - even when proven wrong by someone who's opinion you claim to respect.



FAIL.



Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:33am PT
Imagine the hell that would come down on an employer or landlord who included the "race" box on applications. And then a second box to check that separates Mexicans from everyone else.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:38am PT
That always pissed me off. Which race best fits you?

What, does the background check all of a sudden become a lot more diligent if i'm latino/hispanic/black?

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:40am PT
The gang/illegal shootings as you say are often impossible to track,, one dead mystery body in an alley with zero suspects is not listed as gang violence correct? Often times those are attributed to possible drug deals also? ( Which could easily be a secondary to gangs?)

They are difficult to measure precisely. Why? Well, what if I'm a gang member, but I am at home and my spouse pisses me off so I kill her? Was that an act of gang violence because I am a gang member? Or does it have to be violence committed in the act of being 'gang member-ish'? Gang members mostly kill one another. Yeah, a random person gets in the cross fire here or there, but mostly one another.

A great many police have gang task forces that deal specifically with these guys. Police have records (binders full of gang members!) on who gang members are and how to distinguish them. Bentham a zillion years ago was a proponent of forced tattooing to help the police deal with the public. Happily that idea never took hold. But to our great fortune, many gang members (and other criminals) tattoo themselves! Thanks guys!

If a mystery body shows up in an alley, there will be an investigation as to how it got there. A possible outcome is 'don't know.' There is a column of 'don't knows' in records. It's a fair number, but most murder is gets figured out.

But still, nationally, gang violence isn't a huge problem. In the early 90s, it was. The crack cocaine market and easy access to guns had those guys shooting the place up over competition - the free market at work! :)

I can't be sure, but when most folks talk of gangs, they are talking about juvenile gangs. There are different sorts of gangs. See e.g., http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/gangs.

Check out this table: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-10
A few things to note. (have to go to the bottom and scroll to see the full table). First, who is killing others? About 1,500 are committed by strangers. About 5,600 (at the time the data were submitted - that may have changed after the data were submitted) were by unknowns. It's unreasonable to expect these were all strangers (though maybe a bit moreso as they are harder to solve).

And note that 150, out of the almost 12,664 murders in 2011 were attributed to gangland killings. Let's say it's low and say it's five times that (750) that is still only 0.59% of all the murders. Nationally, it's not a big contributor. And honestly, if they're killing one another, you'd think people would be happy about that!

Lots of interesting stuff there. For fun, go back and look at 1993 or 1994 and see the difference. Don't have time myself as I'm knee deep in Hispanic victimization statistics today.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:40am PT
Indeed eh Chaz! Obviously, the FBI has a KEEN interest in finding out how many HISPANICS have guns. They seem not to give a rip about Irish or the like..and you HAVE to check that box, no choice..

So one can only be left to wonder why they want to know specifically about one race. Could it be,, that they feel there is a connection between lots of unknown homicides and these people? Or that crime rates are some how connected? Surely there IS a reason the FBI wants this particular info.



edit: Thanks Crimpie! I know yur a buzy bee!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:42am PT
What, does the background check all of a sudden become a lot more diligent if i'm latino/hispanic/black?

If Rong had his way, probably.


Nah, in reality they probably collect that data to show just how Rong Rong is.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:43am PT
Indeed eh Chaz! Obviously, the FBI has a KEEN interest in finding out how many HISPANICS have guns. They seem not to give a rip about Irish or the like..and you HAVE to check that box, no choice..

At the national level, the FBI does NOT collect crime data by Hispanic origin. Some local law enforcement agencies do. I challenge you to find in the FBI data any category about Hispanic. It does not exist.

Who knows about gun background check data? Anyone know? I certainly don't.
jghedge

climber
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:44am PT
"Indeed eh Chaz! Obviously, the FBI has a KEEN interest in finding out how many HISPANICS have guns."

"At the national level, the FBI does NOT collect data by Hispanic origin."


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!


Yup - you dropped that subject like a hot potato

Just like wingnuts always do when they've been proven wrong.


On to the next topic you're completely wrong about

Sooo entertaining!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:46am PT
Phuqu wessie..

The FBI specifically wants to know how many hispanics have guns.. Theres no Arab block, or Irish block, or French block,, just hispanic. You have to check NON hispanic even after checking "white"..


tell me why---the FBI gets away with such blatant racism in their paper work.


edit : Crimpie,,, EVERY BRADY BACKGROUND CHECK has this box which MSUT be checked either NON-hispanic, or hispanic. This box comes right after the "race" box..
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:47am PT
So, just googled 'gun registration form' and looked at some. One asked for race. The others I saw didn't ask for anything like that. Is it different in CA? NV?

Sound like local states/jurisdictions determine what goes on these?

edit: Ron, where do you see that? Link? Would that be the FBI? Or the ATF which handles firearms issues? Do you have copy of the form? Genuinely curious to see it.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:49am PT
Crimpie i just filled one out on saturday ...This is about two years old now that im aware of.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:50am PT
I found this:

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/41642626/Request-for-Firearm-Transaction-Background-Check

But it asks only about race - nothing about Hispanic origin. Is this what you filled out? I assume there is a federal form people must fill out? Is this it? Do states personalize them with the request of additional info? Really don't know.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:50am PT
After seeing that press conference with the head of the NRA I realized there is no sense trying to work with the gun nuts. (again I'm a gun owner, but have better things to do than being a gun nut).

If they can't admit having less assault weapons and/or high capacity clips around means less of a chance they will end up in the hands of a psychotic killer, then they are unreasonable and there is no point debating them.

We should all just join with the 60%+ of Americans who are reasonable and we should work to enact reasonable restrictions on gun ownership and purchase. Of course along with other things like improved mental health treatment that are just as important for the kind of violence that happened in Newtown.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:51am PT
Imagine the hell that would come down on an employer or landlord who included the "race" box on applications.

I imagine someone might sue the employer or landlord, claiming a violation of the applicable laws. Eventually the courts would make a ruling.

I personally wouldn't call that "hell coming down," but some folks seem to get worked up about some pretty mundane things...
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