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Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
We've talked about DGU here before. It's not easy to measure. The numbers you cite Tooth are very questionable. Kleck is a nice guy and all, but his estimates have problems that are well documented.

Check this out: http://home.uchicago.edu/~ludwigj/papers/JQC-CookLudwig-DefensiveGunUses-1998.pdf.

edit: not sure why the full link isn't working. Be sure to link the whole url.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
The lit review shows defensive use from over 3 mil/yr to under 800k/yr. I picked something in the middle.


Nothing around 11,239 per year.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:51pm PT
What is defensive use? That's what Crimpie has talked about before. Just having a gun with you while you investigate a loud noise can be considered by some to be defensive you and by others not defensive.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:51pm PT
Check out the criticisms of Kleck's stuff - some of his estimates are not possible. And I agree (as Phil Cook states) that the truth is likely in the middle.

BTW, I'm not criticizing you - just thought you'd like to read it as you appear to appreciate data and research.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
Hedge:
Really?

"Megalomania is having a highly egotistical mindset, meaning that the person has a very high opinion of his or her self."

"If you have megalomania, it means that you have beliefs that are grandiose and you have unrealistic beliefs in your superiority. Persons with megalomania lack empathy and are control freaks."

http://ask.reference.com/web?q=What%20Is%20Megalomania?&o=100100
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
Defensive use is using it as a tool to get yourself out of a situation where you would be otherwise overpowered by your assailant. This could be human or animal.


monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
And that is hard to quantify, Tooth, as Crimpie has pointed out before. Just going to some middle number could be very far off.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:58pm PT
Sure is. Even harder to report numbers on, and harder yet to study. Wonder why the numbers aren't under 10,000 with each of the studies. Wouldn't that be closer to one use per lifetime of each concealed carrier?


Sure, let's take the 10 smallest studies. Or Brady Center studies. Still tells me that firearms are used far more to deter acts of crime in the US than they are to kill people.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
no one is arguing for "universal unimpeded" access to arms.

the NRA does, and many people here wonder where to draw the line... and the Congress passes budgets that severely limit the executive branch enforcement of fire arms.

My line of argument is the tension between "the right to bear arms" and use of those arms... how do you limit a person's "liberty," any person's liberty, who can invoke this right?

And having allowed that liberty, you will open the door to the inevitable use of those arms, not in the defense of a "free state" but however that person chooses. That is what personal liberty is all about.

How do you reconcile that with what is considered a high minded view by the Founders?

One way of reconciliation is to interpret the right in the context of a "well regulated militia" which has authority over an individuals personal choice of what to do with those arms.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 13, 2013 - 11:03pm PT
The NRA's not in favor of felons and crazy people having acces to guns. You can find that out simply by reading their materials, if you could trouble yourself to commit the effort. Therefore, there IS a limit.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 13, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
The NRA's not in favor of felons and crazy people having acces to guns.

How do you decide who is crazy? Didn't the country sign legislation that prevented people who were determined "crazy" from being incarcerated against their will? Which has become a major problem of the homeless poor in the cities?

How do you keep track of the "crazy people"? put them on a list? then how does a gun dealer know not to sell to them? Is is against the law to buy a gun for a "crazy person"?

I've read the NRA stuff, it doesn't impress me in terms of intellectually well thought out. More like accommodating the current situation to prevent as much legislation as possible.

Given the NRA's recent comments, are they suggesting that people who play too many hours of violent video games be denied their "right to bear arms"?

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 13, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
yes, of course the NRA is not advocating felons or mentally ill having guns


but beyond that very obvious concession to common sense, the point being made is that the NRA is so very, very extreme compared to their membership's views according to recent surveys

The NRA exists very much to insure the high profits of the entire gun "industry" as they serve on its governing board and their corporations are in business for the same reason Papa John's is, to make the absolute most amount of profit for its shareholders, and not be make sure little Timmy gets proper gun safety instruction from his daddy
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 13, 2013 - 11:19pm PT
Mr Kos,

Which branch of the government is to "regulate" these militias? Why didn't The Constitution specify? The Constitution was VERY specific as to which branch was to be in charge of the Army and the Navy. Why the ambiguosity toward control of the militias?


And if the government was to be in control of the militias the same way it is charged with control of the Army and the Navy, then why exactly was it mentioned only in the Bill Of Rights - where the rights of citizens are detailed - and not the Articles, where the everything else the government controls are specified?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 13, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
To own a gun in -------, one must document a use for the gun. By far the most common grounds for civilian ownership are hunting and sports shooting, in that order. Other needs can include special guard duties or self-defence, but the first is rare unless the person shows identification confirming that he or she is a trained guard or member of a law-enforcement agency and the second is practically never accepted as a reason for gun ownership.

There are special rules for collectors of guns. They are exempt from many parts of the regulation, but, in turn, they must meet even more narrow qualifications. Collectors may purchase, but not fire without permission, all kinds of guns in their respective areas of interest, which they have defined in advance.

Ownership is regulated in paragraph 7,[1] and responsibility for issuing a gun ownership license is given to the police authority in the applicant's district.

Rifle and shotgun ownership permission can be given to "sober and responsible" persons 18 years or older. The applicant for the permission must document a need for the weapon. Two exceptions exist to this age qualification. Persons under the age of 18, but over 16 may apply for rifle or shotgun ownership licence with the consent of parents or guardian. For handguns, the lowest ownership age is 21 with no exceptions allowed. For inherited weapons, it is up to the local police chief to make a decision based on the individual facts of the case.

An applicant must have a clean police record in order to obtain an ownership license.


This is the gun ownership rules in countries whose mass shootings end up with 77 killed and 242 injured in one incident alone.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 13, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
So, which branch is supposed to regulate the militias? And how do you know?

Or maybe it isn't a matter for the Federal Government to concern itself with.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 13, 2013 - 11:25pm PT
Do you think those DGUs used AR-15s and other long guns? Or do you think they used handguns? Maybe a bit of both?

I don't think anyone is arguing against DGU.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 13, 2013 - 11:26pm PT
Which branch of the government is to "regulate" these militias? Why didn't The Constitution specify?

generally, those unstated details are left for the states to determine... which is why we are familiar with the idea of a "state militia"

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 13, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
So why are Obama and Biden trying to take charge, if it's something that's rightly left up to the states?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 13, 2013 - 11:37pm PT
Norway had only 5 gun homicides in 2005. The mass shooting of 2011 can hardly be used to indicate gun violence in Norway.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 13, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
Have you read a newspaper in the last couple of weeks?
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