The Gun debate sandbox

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 1501 - 1520 of total 5484 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 13, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
The real question then, is what in our culture causes us to tolerate violence at every level,

UK: 3.5 times the violent crime rate, 1/3 the murder rate.

It ain't cultural, access to killing tools makes all the difference.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 13, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
Was in the Cabelas in Grand Junction yesterday. They still have lots of ammo but are rationing 10 boxes per customer.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 13, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
I meant to say it isn't Uhmerikuhn ("our") culture specifically.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 13, 2013 - 08:16pm PT
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

2.1 million defensive uses of guns in the US each year.

11,493 gun deaths.





Remove guns from the good guys.





Gun deaths stay the same. 2.1 million incidences that turn into rapes or murders.






Net result!??? Violence rate increases to match that of the UK. Everybody Happy Happy Happy.

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jan 13, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
Was it written by the same people who wrote the 2nd?

Actually quite a bit of it was. The author extensively uses letters, speeches, minutes of meetings and so forth from the discussions and debates which led to The Bill of Rights.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 13, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
You have no idea where the bill of rights came from do you?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 13, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
ksolem - it is not tenable that the authors of the Constitution intended any of the amendments to condone illegal actions against the government at constituted.

Certainly one can pick language from the debate prior to the draft and the eventual words of the particular article, that seem to indicate that people should have the "right" so as to protect themselves against a tyrannical government, but if they meant that, why didn't they say that?

Now, choosing to have universal and unimpeded access to guns will result in those guns being used for their intended function: to kill.

That is plain and simple, you can say they are used as a deterrent, but the threat behind the deterrent is death, absolute.

The choice to continue to interpret the "right to bear arms" is a choice that essentially prioritize this right to unimpeded access against the deaths that are inevitable because of the access. I haven't seen an argument that counters that...

Once again, there is only one reason to possess fire arms, and as stated in the 2nd amendment, it is not the right to hunt game, but to protect "a free state," by the possession of a lethal force.

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jan 13, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
I guess Ed didn't read it either, or he would understand why non political uses of arms, and specific enumerations of arms were left out of the bill.

Now, choosing to have universal and unimpeded access to guns will result in those guns being used for their intended function: to kill

Please Ed, no one is arguing for "universal unimpeded" access to arms. This is far from the case today - unless you are a criminal and buy your guns on the black market - And the second amendment, in context with the others, does not guarantee such a thing either.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 13, 2013 - 09:25pm PT
delete


piss on it
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 13, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
Dr Hartouni writes:

"Certainly one can pick language from the debate prior to the draft and the eventual words of the particular article, that seem to indicate that people should have the "right" so as to protect themselves against a tyrannical government, but if they meant that, why didn't they say that?"


I think they did, when the second amendment was written "...being necessary to the security of a free state...".

A state where citizens are not armed was seen by those guys as being something short of free.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 13, 2013 - 09:33pm PT
I'm a gun owner in favor of reasonable gun control as part of the solution to reducing mass murders.

I think I mentioned before Norton that Hedge wants to see all guns banned. That idea, at least in this country, is pretty far out in left field, so to speak.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 13, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
Guns don't kill people, lead and copper do...I'm with Norton on reducing mass murder...If we banned lead and copper and substituted rubber , the death rate from gun violence would diminish....RJ
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 13, 2013 - 09:45pm PT
Hedge:
Banning guns seems to me to be just as much of a moral imperative as banning slavery was

We understand that's the way it seems to you. You've made that clear ad nauseum. That's not the way it seems to everyone though.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 13, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
That's being a drama queen?


ok Joe, maybe not a good choice of words


but you gotta admit your repetitive little dick associations to gun owners who don't see things as you do is pretty dumb, not relevant, and just an intentional insult

right Joe?
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
"...being necessary to the security of a free state..."

To understand the meaning here, one must first understand what the reference of "a free state" is about. It is not about the Federal Govt. It is specifically about the freedom, sovereignty if you will, of the states. The Federalists won the day, and so the Bill of Rights came to be. There was deep seated distrust of a strong central government.

From the synopsis of Dr. Halbrook's book The Founder's Second Amendment (I just ordered a copy:)

"The proposed Bill of Rights was then considered for adoption by the states. No record exists of any criticism of “the right of the people to keep and bear arms,” although the militia clause was taken to task for not actually doing anything. The Bill of Rights was finally adopted in 1791.

Meanwhile, the nature of a well-regulated militia was debated in Congress. The Militia Act of 1792 would require that all able-bodied white males enroll in the militia and provide their own arms. Both the power of the states to maintain militias and the right of individuals to have arms for self-defense, as Chapter 14 shows, were considered basic.

The historical evidence set forth in this book suggests that the Founders had a predilection for both a well-regulated militia and an individual right to have arms, and that they envisioned that the two clauses of the Amendment would complement rather than be in tension with each other."

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
The conservative SCOTUS that upheld Heller sees no problems with regulating gun ownership of private individuals. We heavily regulate full-autos, the same can be done for semi-auto assault weapons. It's ultimately up to SCOTUS to decide what's constitutional.

In fact, SCOTUS has upheld semi-auto assault-weapon bans in the past.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
Hedge:
Of course it's an intentional insult, but there's certainly truth in it as well

Of course you would think so. The rest of us think those who yell loudest on the internet probably have itsy bitsy teeny weeny ones. And "there's certainly truth in that", to quote you, Hedge.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:31pm PT
I'm just pointing out that you seem to think you are the final arbiter here, THE one with superior understanding.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
He is alone in that thought.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
It's called megalomania.
Messages 1501 - 1520 of total 5484 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews