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Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 15, 2012 - 03:58am PT
Let's man up about this - this isn't a "people" problem. This is a man problem.

It's true. Us men are beasts, pure and simple. Testosterone poisoning is our underlying problem

Peace

karl
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Dec 15, 2012 - 06:10am PT
Kris, My source was seeing Wayne Lapierre say it on television in an interview shortly after the Virginia Tech shooting. I don't know his exact position in the NRA, but I know he's one of the top dogs.

I can't make an exact quote, but the jist of it was that mentally ill Americans were still Americans, and he would fight for their constitutional rights just the same as he would for every other American.

He went on to say it was one of those slippery slope things, who was to decide who was mentally ill, etc... He used an imagined example of someone who's spouse made a false claim of domestic violence against them, court ordered psychiatric evaluation, end result of someone who was innocent of any wrongdoing deprived of their (and this did stick in my mind),"God given" constitutional right to bear arms.

Yeah, that stuck with me as I was previously unaware that "God" had written any of our constitutional amendments.

So if you wonder why I think that many of the NRA types are nutjobs who shouldn't be trusted to drive a car much less bear arms, this is a pretty good explanation. I guess if you're a mentally imbalanced gun nut it follows that you'd defend the right of other mentally imbalanced types to keep their guns. The term gun nut seems to be literally true in a lot of people.

You also asked me where the road rage turned shootings I saw, both were here in Albuquerque. I didn't actually see the double murder occur. I saw the traffic event that preceded it. The shooter killed two women tourists who cut him off. I saw them cut him off as I was driving Westbound on I-40. I went on my way not realizing the horrific event that was occurring. The shooter abandoned his vehicle under a freeway overpass and walked a short distance to a motel and checked in. The police followed his footprints in the snow to the motel and busted him there.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:05am PT
Mental health issues are more of a factor in these mass shootings than guns, but as I've said there will always be crazy psychos who will go on rampages. We should be addressing mental health issues, but to ignore that there is a problem with easy access to guns in this country is to ignore a part of the solution that perhaps could have prevented the loss of so many children's lives yesterday. Sure a crazy idiot could go on a rampage with a knife but if I was a teacher and a guy barged in with a knife I'd have a good chance of kicking his ass, if he had a gun he'd probably shoot me dead.

I'm a gun owner and I like guns, but I'm just sick of the NRA types opposing sensible regulations on guns that keep them out of the hands of the wrong people.

Many of healyje's suggestions are already in place in CA. I don't have an issue with any of the laws in CA that are more strict than other states. I don't know if they can be applied nationally though. A lot of guns used in violent crimes in CA come from states like AZ with lax laws. But there are states rights to be considered, and legally I don't know if the feds can make states like AZ do anything.

Some of healyje's suggestions I don't agree with, they don't do anything to keep guns away from the wrong people, while adding a significant burden to law abiding gun owners, but these in particular should be put in place nationally IMO:

Mandatory registering of all guns and licensing gun owners

Greatly extend the waiting period for gun sales to insure appropriate background checks (just make sure there ARE appropriate background checks and a cooling off period, 3 days minimum)

Mandatory reporting of all lost or stolen weapons

Felony conviction for failure to report a lost or stolen weapon which is later used in the commission of a crime

Register all ammunition sales

Subject gun show sales to the same requirements as dealers


And this one added in particular:

Proper locks and storage so your idiot kid doesn't shoot you and the rest of your town with your own motherf*#king gun.


And I'd add confiscation of any unregistered guns and guns left unsecured.

Gun licensing should include a test on safe handling such as locking up your guns.

As mentioned before we have all kinds of regulations around driving/owning cars but little around guns.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:16am PT
WTF is a gun show sale?

You mean those venders? They have to use FFL forms too.
Or do you just want a reliable road map for the next phase of the Patriot Act?




Karl,
most women murderers use poison.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:35am PT
When all the anti gun types post signs,

you know like the ones alarm companies provide, prominently in their front yard;



THIS RESIDENCE IS A GUN FREE ZONE




Then I'll take them seriously
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:37am PT
Good one TGT.

I'm stealing it.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:57am PT
FWIW, and we don't know the particulars...

Most gun "safes" are not really "safes" at all. Most are glorified sheet metal boxes. A 20 year old with some simple power tools from Home Depot could certainly be inside any RSC-rated (typical home safe) in 15 minutes or less.

So saying things weren't "locked up" isn't necessarily true.

Now back to your regular program.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
Ron as a gun guy I would fully expect you now the problem in many states of private party sales of guns with no background checks at gun shows.

TGT are you so dumb as to see the world as black and white? Because I support reasonable gun control laws I must be anti-gun right? Care to test that assertion by breaking into my house one night?

If you can't accept reasonable measures to keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people and help keep innocent children from being killed you are a selfish coward.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
One of the scary and somewhat sick effects of this latest tradgedy will be an even greater panic run on ammo and guns.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
Is it gun shows or private sales you are after, Fet?

Yeah, lets prep for phase 2 of the Patriot Act.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
Kris, My source was seeing Wayne Lapierre say it on television in an interview shortly after the Virginia Tech shooting. I don't know his exact position in the NRA, but I know he's one of the top dogs.

I can't make an exact quote, but the jist of it was that mentally ill Americans were still Americans, and he would fight for their constitutional rights just the same as he would for every other American.

He went on to say it was one of those slippery slope things, who was to decide who was mentally ill, etc... He used an imagined example of someone who's spouse made a false claim of domestic violence against them, court ordered psychiatric evaluation, end result of someone who was innocent of any wrongdoing deprived of their (and this did stick in my mind),"God given" constitutional right to bear arms.

Yeah, LaPierre is one of the “top dogs” there.

On your first pass you took him entirely out of context to punctuate your point. Now you give us partial context. I did not see or hear the quote as it was said, but I do not disagree that using accusations of mental imbalance against one’s political enemies is a slippery slope. George Orwell thought so as well.

Mandatory registering of all guns and licensing gun owners

Greatly extend the waiting period for gun sales to insure appropriate background checks (just make sure there ARE appropriate background checks and a cooling off period, 3 days minimum)

Mandatory reporting of all lost or stolen weapons

Felony conviction for failure to report a lost or stolen weapon which is later used in the commission of a crime

Register all ammunition sales

Subject gun show sales to the same requirements as dealers


And this one added in particular:

Proper locks and storage so your idiot kid doesn't shoot you and the rest of your town with your own motherf*#king gun.


And I'd add confiscation of any unregistered guns and guns left unsecured.

Gun licensing should include a test on safe handling such as locking up your guns.

Most of what you list above is already law in CA, though registering all ammunition sales was struck down by the courts.

As far as reporting stolen guns, been there done that and got my gun back through the fine efforts of the Fresno PD and LAPD. It was an interesting experience showing up at the property desk at the Hollywood Precinct to pick up my Beretta which had been shipped down from Fresno after ballistics testing to ascertain it was not used in a crime.

I do expect that if semi auto guns are banned we will see a large increase in the number of guns reported as stolen…
jstan

climber
Jan 10, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
Today's report is out of the ordinary. One is prompted to ask a question.

Do you suppose guns are a fetish?








http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/nra-looks-at-ways-to-stop-destruction-of


NRA Looks At Ways To Stop Destruction Of Tucson Guns

DAVID TAINTOR 1:34 PM EST, THURSDAY JANUARY 10, 2013
Tweet


The National Rifle Association is looking at ways to stop the destruction of future guns, after a Tucson, Ariz., company destroyed more than 200 firearms turned in at a city buyback this week, an NRA national board member told TPM Thursday.

"We have plans to fix the problem of the destruction of the guns in the future, but I'm not going to give any details," said Todd Rathner, who lives in Arizona and has served on the NRA's board for 13 years.

Earlier this week, Rathner threatened to sue over the city's buyback, claiming that Arizona law requires guns claimed by the police to be sold to licensed firearms dealers. Asked whether he is still considering the suit, Rathner told TPM: "We're looking at all options."

Tucson Police Department spokesman Sgt. Chris Widmer told TPM Thursday that City Attorney Michael Rankin concluded that guns turned in voluntarily do not need to be resold.

Rathner said the the issue isn't about guns themselves but the law. "I never said guns have rights," he added.
Credit: jstan
(Photo: Robert Woodward looks on as Tucson police officers strip a shotgun Woodward turned in at a gun buyback event on Jan. 8, 2013 in Tucson, Ariz. Participants were offered a $50 gift card to a grocery store in exchange for their guns. Credit: Will Seberger/ZUMA Press/Newscom)


Edit:



L.A. NOW
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA -- THIS JUST IN
« Previous Post | L.A. NOW Home | Next Post »
Taft classroom shooting: Heroic effort prevents further violence
January 10, 2013 | 3:34 pm


Authorities praised the heroic actions of school officials that prevented further bloodshed after a 16-year-old student at Taft Union High School near Bakersfield burst into a classroom Thursday. He allegedly shot a boy in the chest and attempted to fire a 12-gauge shotgun at another student.

A neighbor saw the student walking to the school with a gun and called 911 about 9 a.m. The suspect was supposed to be in the classroom he burst into, which was filled with about 28 students. The suspect waved the gun in different directions and after firing at the victim, aimed at another student and missed, Youngblood said.

A teacher and campus supervisor were able to evacuate the classroom before anyone else was injured. The teacher suffered a minor pellet wound to his head and another student may have suffered hearing damage, authorities said. The suspect had as many as 20 rounds in his pocket.

“They did a great job of protecting the kids,” said Ed Whiting, chief of the Taft Police Department. “We can’t thank them enough for what they did today.”

“This is a tragedy but not as bad as we think it might have been,” Kern County Sheriff Donny Youngblood said.

Jacob Jackson, a sophomore at Taft Union High School, was in the campus library when the intercom crackled Thursday morning, announcing a lockdown.

"We're supposed to have a lockdown drill next week. I thought it was a drill going early," Jacob, 15, said. "I figured out it was real whenever I heard the helicopter and sirens."

Shortly after 9 a.m., a shooting was reported at the science building, which is separate from where Jacob and his classmates sat for more than an hour, lights off, doors locked.

"I was just thinking, 'I don't want to die,' " Jacob said.

Authorities eventually moved the students and staff to an auditorium, but said they couldn't say what was going on. Rumors were flying, Jacob said, that someone had opened fire in a classroom.

A 16-year-old student was shot and wounded at the school, sheriff's officials said, and was in critical but stable condition. Authorities said the suspect, also a student, used a rifle and tried to shoot a second student but missed.

A third student was taken to an area hospital with possible hearing damage after the shotgun was fired close to her ear, authorities said. A fourth suffered minor injuries when she stumbled over a table.

Panicked parents rushed to the school. Many said they feared the worst after the Dec. 14 massacre at a Newtown, Conn., elementary school that killed 20 students and six adults.

Mary Jackson, Jacob's mother, works in the school district's food service department. She was in a junior high school kitchen two blocks away when she and her co-workers were told to lock the kitchen doors.

"My first instinct is my son," Jackson said. "I started bawling and fell to the floor."

She left the building and ran to the high school, where she heard that two students had been shot.

"How do I know it wasn't my son? It was horrible — I got a text from my son that said, 'I love you,' " she said. "I broke down. After about three hours, we finally got to talk."

Jackson said she's just glad her children — her daughter attends an elementary school next to Taft Union — are safe.

"It was a long, horrible, horrible feeling in my stomach that I wish on no one," she said.








And the NRA wants weapons turned in to be resold.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 10, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
Another school shooting today:

SOLUTION: put Armed Guards in schools!

YES, that will solve this pesky problem


EXCEPT: today the guard did not show up, two students shot in California




WASHINGTON -- Taft Union High School in Taft, Calif., normally has an armed guard on campus to help officials with problems that go "beyond the scope" of the administration.

But on Thursday morning, as a student showed up with a shotgun and fired two to four shots at a teacher and a classmate, the officer was nowhere to be found.

"He couldn't get there because he was snowed in," Sheriff Donny Youngblood of the Kern County Sheriff’s Department said in a press conference Thursday afternoon.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 10, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
Do you suppose guns are a fetish?

That would explain the irrational behavior of the gun owners when they are threaten to lose them...
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Jan 11, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
This guy was apparently a huge gun enthusiast and producer of a highly followed YouTube channel called FPS Russia (made in Georgia) where he produced a lot of gun videos. He was murdered with a gun at his place of business by someone who was apparently better at using guns than he was. I wonder what his thoughts were about gun control right before he caught a high velocity round with his brain?

FPSRussia

http://www.youtube.com/user/FPSRussia?feature=chclk

Articles

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/11/us/keith-ratliff-gun-enthusiast-of-fpsrussia-is-shot-to-death.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/09/keith-ratliff-fpsrussia-dead_n_2439284.html

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 11, 2013 - 05:13pm PT
When all the anti gun types post signs

There are anti-gun types? That's odd because I have only heard from people who are for stricter gun regulations... and those who are absolutely 100% dead set against any kind of new regulations AT ALL and threaten civil war if ANYONE even suggests any further regulations. Pro-regulation is not anti-gun.

You people really need a reality check... you are the same ones that think pro-choice means anti-life. Just because some feel that a grown woman's choice that affects the rest of her life is more important than a clump of cells incapable of living outside her body, does not mean they encourage abortions or take the choice lightly. Your ignorance is repulsive.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jan 11, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
There are anti-gun types?

There is a broad spectrum of opinion regarding guns, and so yes, at one end of the spectrum there are "anti gun folks." There are some on this forum, but I'll let them speak for themselves. At the other end are those who are against all regulation. I don't recall anyone here taking that position.

Personally I am a pro regulation gun owner who believes in the bill of rights. Of course the devil is in the details, and regulation I might think is sensible might offend Ron, or not be enough for Healyje. Take magazine capacity for example. I live in a nice house in a somewhat secluded spot on the slopes of the San Gabriels on the edge of L.A. The neighborhood is okay, but gangland is within walking distance. There have been two armed home invasions within 5 miles of here in the last couple of years. In one case the father of several children was summarily shot in his garage. In the other Dad had a semi auto handgun with a 15 round mag handy. He emptied his gun driving away the attackers who are now in jail.

Now on the one hand I think it is unlikely that my home will be attacked in this fashion. But if it is, I will want to be able to defend my wife and myself as effectively as possible. So in this event if I come out with a gun with a 16 round capacity and shoot an attacker, should I be in legal trouble? I am talking about a situation of clear self defense. I understand that it is not legitimate to shoot someone who is prowling around or even trying to break in until they pose a real threat.

I completely understand the argument that hi cap mags make for a more efficient gun, and in the hands of a psychopath this weapon is horrendous. But I would argue that any of these killers would do their evil work with less efficient weapons or simply acquire the illegal gun. For example the Dunblane Massacre in Scotland in which 16 children and their teacher were killed was committed with four legally registered pistols. The killer fired 109 rounds. He had two revolvers and two Browning 9mm pistols which as I recall hold 12 rounds, so he did a lot of reloading.

Sorry for the wandering post, but regarding the Bill of Rights, and the concept that the 2nd amendment is there so the people can defend themselves against a tyrannical government, it is quite clear that in today's world citizens fighting with small arms against our military is not a viable option (I think though that this is more about food and water than the weapons.) But, a government which supports the responsible ownership and use of arms is a government which respects and has trust in the people.

So there are a lot of regulations for owning and using guns that I would support, and I am happy to chat rationally about them here. It's about balance. I want my right to defend myself and my wife, and so I want also to be able to practice with my guns to keep my skill level high. At the same time we obviously want to do our best to keep guns out of the hands of lunatics. So where was the weak link in the Connecticut atrocity (aside from the kid being flat out insane?) The custodian of the weapons, the mother who he killed, was irresponsible (and therefore responsible.) IMO this is a much more important subject than how many rounds a magazine can hold.





Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 11, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
Here's some predictable and cheerless news, to add to that from jstan. The NRA refuses to concede any need for improved regulation of guns. Well, they've boxed themselves into a corner, and it seems likely that there'll be a return to (at least) the 1994 - 2004 regulations on assault weapons, large ammunition containers, and limits on sales. Nation-wide. As long as the regulations are reasonable, they seem likely to pass, and withstand constitutional scrutiny.

Vice President Joe Biden butted heads with the powerful National Rifle Association on Thursday in his drive to reduce U.S. gun violence, drawing complaints from the lobby group that the White House is trying to limit constitutionally protected gun rights.

Biden sat down for about an hour and a half of talks with an NRA representative and officials from other gun owners' groups after telling reporters he is likely to recommend background checks for all gun buyers and a ban on high-capacity ammunition clips.

"It is unfortunate that this administration continues to insist on pushing failed solutions to our nation's most pressing problems. We will not allow law-abiding gun owners to be blamed for the acts of criminals and madmen," the NRA said in a statement after the meeting.

Biden is heading a task force on reducing gun violence formed after a gunman shot dead 20 children and six adults last month at a Connecticut elementary school. Biden said he will make recommendations to President Barack Obama by next Tuesday.

The strong reaction by the NRA, a lobbying organization known for its influence with many lawmakers of both parties, illustrated the difficulty of changing gun laws in a country long accustomed to being able to purchase firearms under relatively loose regulations.

The Biden task force is trying to reach a consensus on a set of recommendations quickly while there is still a mood for action in Congress after the shootings in Newtown, Connecticut.

Adding urgency to the gun debate, a student armed with a shotgun opened fire at a California high school on Thursday, critically wounding a fellow student before two adult staff members talked the boy into giving up his weapon.

Moving quickly for Washington, Biden plans to turn over recommendations to Obama after only a few weeks of work. Biden said there is only a "tight window" for action.

"There is nothing that has pricked the consciousness of the American people (and) there is nothing that has gone to the heart of the matter more than the image people have of little 6-year-old kids riddled - not shot, but riddled, riddled - with bullet holes in their classroom," Biden said.

Attorney General Eric Holder also held talks on Thursday with major retailers including Wal-Mart Stores Inc, the largest U.S. gun seller, as well as Bass Pro Shops and Dick's Sporting Goods.

The Biden task force is grappling with elements that go beyond gun control measures, also looking into aspects of American popular culture.

The group held talks on Thursday with representatives of the movie industry and will also hear on Friday from the video game business. Both industries routinely feature gun violence.

BACKGROUND CHECKS

Meeting earlier with hunting and outdoor sports groups, Biden said two of his task force's recommendations are likely to be universal background checks for gun purchasers and a ban on high-capacity ammunition clips like the ones used in the Connecticut massacre. The background check requirement would extend to all gun purchasers. This would close the "gun show loophole" in which vendors at open-air gun sales events can sell without a background check on the purchaser. It would also extend to private sales such as those conducted over the Internet. The task force might also propose a ban on assault weapons like the Bushmaster AR-15 rifle used by the gunman in Newtown.

"There's an emerging set of recommendations not coming from me, but coming from the groups we've met with," Biden said.

Biden's office had no substantive reaction to the NRA statement, issued less than an hour after the talks ended.

"We were disappointed with how little this meeting had to do with keeping our children safe and how much it had to do with an agenda to attack the Second Amendment," the NRA said.

"While claiming that no policy proposals would be 'prejudged,' this task force spent most of its time on proposed restrictions on lawful firearms owners - honest, taxpaying, hardworking Americans," the NRA added.

The NRA, which proposed after the Newtown shootings that armed security officers be stationed at U.S. schools, vowed to take "our commitment and meaningful contributions to members of Congress of both parties who are interested in having an honest conversation about what works - and what does not."

Obama will review the Biden group's ideas, decide which ones he wants to keep and then announce "a package of actions and proposals," the White House said. Obama will seek legislative action by Congress but may also try to get some of his objectives done through presidential executive orders.

U.S. lawmakers have not approved a major new gun law since 1994. A U.S. assault weapons ban lapsed in 2004.

More than a hundred scientists from virtually every major U.S. university told Biden's task force in a letter that research restrictions pushed by the NRA have stopped the United States from finding solutions to gun violence.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has cut gun safety research by 96 percent since the mid-1990s, according to one estimate. Congress, pushed by the gun lobby, in 1996 put restrictions on CDC funding of gun research. Restrictions on other agencies were added in later years.

Biden said he would like federal agencies to have the ability to get information on what kind of weapons are used most to kill people and what kind of weapons are the most trafficked.

"I'm no great hunter - it's mostly skeet shooting for me - I don't quite understand why everybody would be afraid of whether or not we determine what is happening," he said.

Some journalists were allowed in for part of Biden's meeting with hunting groups such as Ducks Unlimited and Pheasants Forever. No such news coverage was arranged for the NRA meeting.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/11/us-usa-guns-idUSBRE9090YM20130111

Let's hope that Obama and company have the gumption to press on this one.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 11, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
Ksolem, some people feel the need to have guns to protect themselves, fair enough. Who am I to say no to that?

But why not at least try to ensure that those people who own guns do so responsibly? Safety inspections are required for cars... why not gun storage? 30+ hours of driver's ed is required to get a driver's license, why not AT LEAST as much for a gun license? People are required to register their vehicles and pay insurance in order to legally own and operate a vehicle, why not a gun? There are restrictions on what kind of fuel you can use in your car on highways (no nitrous), why not similarly limit high capacity magazines to shooting ranges?


Regardless, the answer to these mass shootings is not more guns. The NRA has got to be full of complete idiots to even suggest that.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 11, 2013 - 07:12pm PT

Require a criminal background check for every gun sold in America.

Ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines that enable mass killing.

Make gun trafficking a federal crime, with stiff penalties for those who arm criminals.

So what's the objection?

http://www.demandaplan.org/sandyhook
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