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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Jan 14, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
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Just like a person should get arrested because of the repercussions of their having a gun, not for having one?
When talking about gun laws, try not to make up absurd and irrelevant sh#t... like suggesting someone would ever get arrested just for having a gun.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Jan 14, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
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I posted way upthread stats about gang violence. They are a tiny tiny part of national violence. When posted, people complained about how gang is measured and defined - and that is difficult. But the numbers, best we have them are there.
Almost all females who are victimized (non-fatally) and killed are killed by someone they know. For men it's about 50/50.
And as far as the economy, that was long thought a key part of the puzzle. As the economy tanks, violence goes up. Except that hasn't happened. Crime started dropping in the early 90s. It's started going up in the last year or so. Economy was in the shitter for a lot (most? all?) of that. Not so easy to explain.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jan 14, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
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What is the number one "cause" of handgun death in America?
I know the answer, curious if any of you do also, no fair looking it up!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jan 14, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
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What is the number one "cause" of handgun death in America?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 14, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
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Imagine the hell that would come down on an employer or landlord who included the "race" box on applications. And then a second box to check that separates Mexicans from everyone else.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Jan 14, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
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That always pissed me off. Which race best fits you?
What, does the background check all of a sudden become a lot more diligent if i'm latino/hispanic/black?
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Jan 14, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
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The gang/illegal shootings as you say are often impossible to track,, one dead mystery body in an alley with zero suspects is not listed as gang violence correct? Often times those are attributed to possible drug deals also? ( Which could easily be a secondary to gangs?)
They are difficult to measure precisely. Why? Well, what if I'm a gang member, but I am at home and my spouse pisses me off so I kill her? Was that an act of gang violence because I am a gang member? Or does it have to be violence committed in the act of being 'gang member-ish'? Gang members mostly kill one another. Yeah, a random person gets in the cross fire here or there, but mostly one another.
A great many police have gang task forces that deal specifically with these guys. Police have records (binders full of gang members!) on who gang members are and how to distinguish them. Bentham a zillion years ago was a proponent of forced tattooing to help the police deal with the public. Happily that idea never took hold. But to our great fortune, many gang members (and other criminals) tattoo themselves! Thanks guys!
If a mystery body shows up in an alley, there will be an investigation as to how it got there. A possible outcome is 'don't know.' There is a column of 'don't knows' in records. It's a fair number, but most murder is gets figured out.
But still, nationally, gang violence isn't a huge problem. In the early 90s, it was. The crack cocaine market and easy access to guns had those guys shooting the place up over competition - the free market at work! :)
I can't be sure, but when most folks talk of gangs, they are talking about juvenile gangs. There are different sorts of gangs. See e.g., http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/gangs.
Check out this table: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-10
A few things to note. (have to go to the bottom and scroll to see the full table). First, who is killing others? About 1,500 are committed by strangers. About 5,600 (at the time the data were submitted - that may have changed after the data were submitted) were by unknowns. It's unreasonable to expect these were all strangers (though maybe a bit moreso as they are harder to solve).
And note that 150, out of the almost 12,664 murders in 2011 were attributed to gangland killings. Let's say it's low and say it's five times that (750) that is still only 0.59% of all the murders. Nationally, it's not a big contributor. And honestly, if they're killing one another, you'd think people would be happy about that!
Lots of interesting stuff there. For fun, go back and look at 1993 or 1994 and see the difference. Don't have time myself as I'm knee deep in Hispanic victimization statistics today.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Jan 14, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
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What, does the background check all of a sudden become a lot more diligent if i'm latino/hispanic/black?
If Rong had his way, probably.
Nah, in reality they probably collect that data to show just how Rong Rong is.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Jan 14, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
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Indeed eh Chaz! Obviously, the FBI has a KEEN interest in finding out how many HISPANICS have guns. They seem not to give a rip about Irish or the like..and you HAVE to check that box, no choice..
At the national level, the FBI does NOT collect crime data by Hispanic origin. Some local law enforcement agencies do. I challenge you to find in the FBI data any category about Hispanic. It does not exist.
Who knows about gun background check data? Anyone know? I certainly don't.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Jan 14, 2013 - 02:47pm PT
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So, just googled 'gun registration form' and looked at some. One asked for race. The others I saw didn't ask for anything like that. Is it different in CA? NV?
Sound like local states/jurisdictions determine what goes on these?
edit: Ron, where do you see that? Link? Would that be the FBI? Or the ATF which handles firearms issues? Do you have copy of the form? Genuinely curious to see it.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jan 14, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
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After seeing that press conference with the head of the NRA I realized there is no sense trying to work with the gun nuts. (again I'm a gun owner, but have better things to do than being a gun nut).
If they can't admit having less assault weapons and/or high capacity clips around means less of a chance they will end up in the hands of a psychotic killer, then they are unreasonable and there is no point debating them.
We should all just join with the 60%+ of Americans who are reasonable and we should work to enact reasonable restrictions on gun ownership and purchase. Of course along with other things like improved mental health treatment that are just as important for the kind of violence that happened in Newtown.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Jan 14, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
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Here is a NV website, but I don't see any mention of race or Hispanic origin here either:
http://nvrepository.state.nv.us/pos.shtml
Oh, and it's pretty standard for what I've seen that race is asked on employment documents including applications. Totally normal in my line of work. Been too long so I don't remember about housing applications. Wouldn't be surprised if it was there to too keep records demonstrating one is not discriminating.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Jan 14, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
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The FBI specifically wants to know how many hispanics have guns..
Crimpie says you are wrong, and she is cuter than you are... I tend to believe anything smart, beautiful women say.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Jan 14, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
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I find 11a the most interesting, really. Did you answer that question Rong?
(FYI, that is the ATF, not the FBI, so Crimpie is still TAWILF.)
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Jan 14, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
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So when you bought your friend that gun, how did you answer it? Did you see the part that says...
"You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person."
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jan 14, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
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The Federal Firearms form asks only if one is either Hispanic or Latino, or NOT.
Hispanic or Latino is an ETHNIC question, and not a "race" question.
As to WHY the Feds want to know if one is Hispanic or Latino or not?
CLEARLY it is because the Feds ARE RACIST and secretly want to persecute people of Hispanic or Latino ethnicity, probably because they are here ILLEGALLY and in GANGS
SHAME on the Feds for being RACIST
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Jan 14, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
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Thanks Ron.
I didn't find that in my 15 second google search. Very interesting. I did see somewhere else that ATF is required to delete this info within 30 days (two weeks? I already forgot) though it's noted there is slippage.
As a never-had-a-gun person, I don't know a dang think about these forms.
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Robb
Social climber
It's Ault or Nunn south of Shy Annie
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Jan 14, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
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"What is the number one "cause" of handgun death in America?"
Hey Norton I'll bite. I'm guessing suicide.
PS: How are you doing these days? Did you ever check into a TENS unit?
Hope you're doing well,
Robb
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Jan 14, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
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Ron - is that form and a Brady BG check the same? Do people fill in state applications too (I realize states and local jurisdiction have different statutes)?
I wonder if it's an OMB requirement. A few years back, they made it to where one must ask about Hispanic Origin BEFORE asking about race on forms. Wonder if it's a requirement to ask about H.O. on all OMB approved forms now...even if the data are used by the agency gathering the info.
edit: Regarding asking only about Hispanic origin. A long time ago, the govt used to ask about lots of different ethnicity categories. It was clear though that Hispanic was the most often check box and I imagine the move away from so many immigrants of non-Hispanic ethnicity is a part of it.
Hispanics are now a larger population than Non-Hispanic Blacks. It's important to understand what is going on with sub-groups in our population (e.g., male/female; young/old; poor/rich) and race and Hispanic origin are just another group to examine. Used for policy purposes.
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