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mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 12, 2013 - 06:39pm PT
How about that bill Cragman? Did you read it, or are you just going to trust Keith Koffler to tell you what you already know, regardless of reality?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 12, 2013 - 06:39pm PT
So since BC has 12% tax, tighter gun laws than Chicago, etc. etc. Asian gangs up the wazoo, why don't we have as many shooting deaths per capita?


If these factors were influencing factors, why can't you trace them?
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Jan 12, 2013 - 06:40pm PT
You addressed and discredited all the relevant facts.

The relevant fact is that millions of people choose to live in Chicago.

Most of them are quite happy, and many quite prosperous.

But it's run by Democrats, so it must be a hell-hole.

Just like California.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 12, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
Do you mean that criminals choose to live in Chicago?


Where they know the law-abiding public has less chance of defending themselves because they CHOOSE to live there thinking gun laws will keep them safe?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 12, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
Where they know the law-abiding public has less chance of defending themselves because they CHOOSE to live there thinking gun laws will keep them safe?

That's some crazy twisted sh!t right there. It shocks me that those thoughts can actually form in the human brain.


So since BC has 12% tax, tighter gun laws than Chicago, etc. etc. Asian gangs up the wazoo, why don't we have as many shooting deaths per capita?

Yeah, why don't you have as many shooting deaths per capita?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 12, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
Better not think about it then mecrist. But if people are willing to shoot kids, and you don't want to think about it, you have no chance of understanding and stopping that type of behavior and you will continue to support politicians who put laws through that will be ineffective in addressing these problems that are becoming epidemic.


I know that there are Americans who move to states heavily influenced by the state gun laws - good guys. Logically then, bad guys would do so as well.


jghedge. I agree with almost your whole post to a point. However, you allow $$ to be given to politicians in Washington, so big industry has a big influence on your laws. Since I can see your other scenario playing out, but know that the gun industry is big enough to influence the government, the only way I can see that happening is that the gun industry doesn't collapse, it will grow, but by selling to people other than citizens, maybe more to other countries. As long as you have lobbying, they aren't going to die off.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Jan 12, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
Yeah, I'm sure the bad guys from all over the country jumped on a bus to Chicago as soon as they tightened the gun laws.

That's how it works.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 12, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
That's a lame response tooth. Seriously, Vancouver has a much lower rate of gun related violent crime... and much stricter gun regulations. Do you really not see the connection?
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Jan 12, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
Also it's easily predictable that some form of military action will need to be taken, soon, against someone with an arsenal who choses to make a stand against the gov't - at which point the US Army will step in, and clearly prove the futility of owning the arsenal. At which point gun sales, and the gun industry itself, will collapse.

The first part of your prediction has merit.

I'm not sure I'm as optimistic about the outcome.

Waco and Ruby Ridge seemed to entrench them even more.

The problem is, many see any use of a gun against the government as legitimate.

It's the gun they honor, not the Constitution.


tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 12, 2013 - 06:57pm PT
Yes, I see the connection. Vancouver is the highest rate of gun crime in BC. It is the biggest city. It doesn't have stricter gun laws than anywhere else.



The same is true in the US. Bigger the city, the higher the rate of per capita crime.



My point was that the gun laws from state to-state vary in relation to the homicide rate, but the size of the city has a much tighter correlation.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 12, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
Wes writes:

"That's a lame response tooth. Seriously, Vancouver has a much lower rate of gun related violent crime... and much stricter gun regulations. Do you really not see the connection? "



Juarez Mexico has way tougher gun regulations than Vancouver, and way more violence.

Still think there's a connection to see?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 12, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Jan 12, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
My point was that the gun laws from state to-state vary in relation to the homicide rate [...]

Yes, but there is a very strong correlation between gun-laws and homicide rate across countries.

Gun regulations are effective at the national level. The evidence is overwhelming.


People who use Chicago as an example of gun regulation failure know damn-well that it's easy to get guns a few miles away in Indiana. It's an insincere, bullshit argument.



tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 12, 2013 - 07:01pm PT
Watch my video Dave. You'll reconsider that statement once you remove borders and consider groups of people in cities vs. rural and see that countries like Canada with very few cities over 250,000 have low crime rate, and countries like Mexico with big cities have high crime rates with the US in the middle, even though our gun laws don't line up neatly like that.


Then you will say, shoot, and will scoff at this because, you will ask, what do you propose, dispersing everyone out of the cities? And use that to discredit any actual thinking about facts at a deeper level than your politicians would give you in their one-liners in the media.







Did I get that right?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 12, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
Gun sales always sky rocket after gun violence. It is the vicious cycle of irrational fear.

Your video sucks.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Jan 12, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
I don't deny that crime rates have declined in the US.

But they are still much higher than the rates that we can achieve.

How do I know we can achieve much lower rates?

Because everyone else like us has done so.

BTW, Europe has some pretty big cities.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 12, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
Um, because it didn't tell you what to think mecrist? You couldn't argue with it? Or because you didn't want to think about anything any different than you do already?


BTW Dave, Europe has a higher violent crime rate per capita than the US too.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Jan 12, 2013 - 07:09pm PT
From your video:

"England and Wales does have much lower murder rate, but I think it's important to talk about [something else]"

Yeah, this guy doesn't have his own agenda.

Had to turn it off about halfway through. The smoke he was blowing was way too thick.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 12, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
No connection between gun laws and gun deaths?

Really?


Well, let's take a look:

The state of Massachusetts has THE toughest gun control laws in the nation.

Massachusetts has THE lowest rate per capita of death by handgun in the nation.

-----------------------

Want another?

Alaska has the nation's least restrictive guns laws, and the absolute highest rate of gun deaths per capita.

-------------------------

Someone mention Chicago?

Chicago has a population of almost 3,000,000

Chicago had ONLY some 500 handgun deaths last year.

Can you imagine how many more gun deaths there would be if laws were "relaxed"?
Likely well in to the thousands, instead of only 500.


But again, let's stick to Massachusetts and Alaska gun laws, pretty huge connection.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 12, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
No, I already pointed out why that video is stupid in another thread...

His UK vs USA comparison is fundamentally flawed. He points out the the UK has a violent crime rate 3.5 times higher than the US. The UK also has an average population density that is over 3.5 times higher than the US. Violent crime rates are related to population density, which he points out earlier using US cities as examples.

Then he brushes over the fact that the UK has a murder rate of 1.3... "that is lower than the US." But he neglects to say HOW MUCH LOWER. The murder rate in the US is over 3x that in the UK.

He is clearly confused by numbers and facts, so I will summarize for you:

1) Violent crime is related to population density.
2) The UK has a population density more than 3.5 times that of the US.
3) The UK has 3.5 times more violent crime than the US. (nothing surprising there)


4) The US, despite its 3.5 times LOWER rate of violent crime, has a murder rate 3x HIGHER than the UK.

Any questions? Yes, that video is stupid... just another dip sh#t confused by numbers and talking himself in circles to support what he thinks he already knows.
Messages 1421 - 1440 of total 5646 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
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