Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
|
That is disturbing!
|
|
ruppell
climber
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
|
Jim
I must have been doing it wrong for all this time. LOL
|
|
Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
|
I have used the bowline for tying in for over 30 years & never had a problem with it. As Erik mentioned, it is easy to untie after holding a big load, and it never leaves an unwanted knot on the end that can accidently get left in & screw up the pull of the rappel ropes.
I just do a half fisherman's to secure it from getting loose.
Most of my partners use this knot too. The knot shown in the video is whacked! You can make anything unsafe if you do it wrong, and IMHO the finishing method depicted it that video is just plain nuts.
|
|
JBoydston
climber
Deep South
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2012 - 03:38pm PT
|
**WARNING!!! THIS JUST IN!!!
KNOTS INTENTIONALLY TIED POORLY AREN'T SAFE**
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
|
The moron tied it wrong that's why.
Can't these guys even "THINK".
I used the "Yosemite bowline" for 30 years and never had it come apart.
The video is all wrong ......
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2012 - 03:42pm PT
|
I couldn't follow that German feller. I don't tie knots like that so his example is pretty much useless to me.
Me too.
I've only been climbing, falling and big walling for 37 years, but all my figure 8's have come untied after climbing,.....so far
|
|
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
|
lol
one of the most useful and most widely used knots in the last several centuries of world history.
adopted for recreational alpinism in the 19th century.
declared unsafe in the 21st.
|
|
Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
|
Tie your bowline on clove hitch and be done with it.
|
|
MisterE
Social climber
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
|
The thread title should read:
The Yosemite bowline isn't safe for climbing if you often mis-tie and never inspect your knots for climbing...after all
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
|
You just have to back the bowline up with half a grapevine or half hitches. Weighing 210 when I was climbing a lot, the bowline was far easier to untie. But for walls, when I never wanted the knot to budge, I always used the "Flemmish Bend," or double figure 8.
JL
|
|
Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
|
Here's a vid of Big Jim demonstrating its application for YOSAR juniors:
I like how he uses both hands to tie a one-handed bowline, thats a good tip
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2012 - 05:26pm PT
|
Stefan seems to have gotten a generally hostile response for his trouble, which I think is unfortunate. Many people use the knot he tested, and I think it is fair to say that no one had a clue that it was possible for the knot to transform in this way. He discovered a potentially hidden danger and did the right thing by going out of his way to publicize it.
In the video, a very loose knot is collapsed into something, which, after further manipulation, is seen to be "untied." There is nothing new about this sort of thing. The ordinary bowline, if tied loosely, can be collapsed into a slip knot with the rope end simply threaded through the loop, surely as bad an outcome as the one in the video. Yet this topologically equivalent but catastrophic configuration is not held against the bowline, and is in fact promoted by some as a method of tying it!
The point is that just because you can manipulate a loose knot into a bad state does not, by itself, mean the original knot is bad. So the important and interesting question is this: suppose we tie the bowline with Yosemite finish the "wrong" way as in the video, but dress it and tighten it with the same care we'd use with any other climbing knot. Does this dressed and tightened knot collapse catastrophically into something that is "untied?"
I asked this question on the UKC forum thread on this same topic,
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=513200.
This post here is an edited and rewritten version of my post there:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=513200&v=1#x6950860.
There was an almost immediate response from Jim Titt
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=513200&v=1#x6950948,
in which he says
Tied with the Yosemite finish loop pulled up through and tightened and with the original bowline loop slack the knot locks up and continues to tighten. I stopped at 6kN as that is all I´m set up for at the moment. There appears no possibility that the tensioned rope will straighten as it has formed a half hitch around two other parts.
We'd be happier with a test to 12 kN, which would be the maximum allowable tension a rope could develop in a factor 1.78 fall according to UIAA standards, but most ropes are well under that number although not down to 6 kN yet.
So what it looks like to me is that if you tie the Yosemite finish the "wrong" way (which is easy to avoid), you get a different configuration which, assuming proper dressing and tightening (which has to be assumed in any case for all knots) is still reliable and is not, as suggested by the manipulations of the loosened version, "untied." But since Jim's equipment can't exceed 6 kN at present, we don't have what I would call a definitive statement on this yet.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2012 - 05:54pm PT
|
I think you DO need a backup for a bowline or double bowline. A veteran climber in England was killed when his bowline came undone. http://www.rockandice.com/news/1909-bowline-blamed-for-death I can see that happening: e.g. you take a fall and catch the rabbit where he's going around the tree (that part of the rope) and you could pull the knot apart.
I never used the Yosemite finish for the same reason as DMT, it makes it hard to visually inspect the knot.
I use a double overhand on the loop like this:
|
|
Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
|
I like simple things that are hard to screw up. The best thing about the Figure 8 is that its pretty ovbious if its tied wrong. With the bowline I had to learn about a rabbit going around a tree and into a hole, proof in itself that its not obvious.
I learned to finish the figure 8 a weird way, though, that cleans it up and keeps the knot out of the way. After tying it, send the end down back through the center of the knot in tbe most obvious way - its the lower of the two loops of the 8. Hard to explain without a picture, but the end of the rope then follows the loop you've tied, and you tie it off there with the fisherman's knot. The remaining end of the rope then heads down towards your feet out of the way. I dont know if this has a name, but I learned if from a British climber and its always been how I tied in.
Fet - I finish my figure 8 just like in the bowline picture you just posted.
|
|
chappy
Social climber
ventura
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
|
I'm with Largo on this one. I always use an 8 for multi pitch routes when I know I'll be staying tied in and a bowline on a TR or sport pitch when the line will more likely be weighted . There are two lessons I've learned though that I recommend strongly and practice religously. These are double check the knot when just a few feet off the ground (I give it a good tug)and when lowering always grab the line on the belayer side of the anchor until you are sure the belayer hasn't taken you off belay or some such foolishness. Believe me it happens...
Chappy
|
|
Barbarian
Trad climber
New and Bionic too!
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
|
I'm an old dog, and like most old dogs, I keep to my old tricks. I've tied in with a Bowline w/Yosemite finish for close to 40 years, taken a bunch of falls, some short; some long, and I've never had the know fail. Of course, I have never failed to properly pull tight or back up my knot.
Bottom line: all knots, regardless of type, that are not tightened or backed up are more than likely unsafe.
Be safe....check your partner's harness and knot and let him/her/it double check yours.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
|
People still use bowlines? I thought they went out with the swami belt.
I never finish knots, I just make sure they are well tied with an adequate tail.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
|
People still use bowlines? I thought they went out with the swami belt.
Only people who fall a lot, so I can see why you'd be 'out of the loop' as it were.
P.S. And why you'd corrupt the basic visual pattern of a bowline with a yosemite finish is beyond me - provides nowhere near enough benefits for destroying the ability to simply visually check for the essential bowline pattern.
|
|
Barbarian
Trad climber
New and Bionic too!
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
|
Yes....they seem strangely silent on the issue.
|
|
jahwise
Trad climber
santa fe, nm
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
|
When I use a Bowline I use it like this backed up with a double overhand or fisherman's style knot. I don't consider the "Yosemite Finish" to be a backup knot, its just another loop in the original Bowline. From the video in the original post we can see how this has a strong potential for failure if tightened in a wrong sequence. Using the double overhand as a backup creates a closed loop in the system and would have to be untied first before the Bowline could come undone.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!