Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 15, 2012 - 03:16am PT
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I dropped out of pre-Med to climb. I did gain my EMT 1 certificate.
I think that I would have made a great doc, and my late brother Mac, as well, when he studied pre-med art Davis. But he saw how cutthroat the process was and opted for viticulture and enology.
His memorial is today (Sunday July 15) at the winery ConnValley Vineyards, Napa.
I have had some great GPs (general practitioners) here in Ireland, but sometimes one wonders, are these people in it for a) a desire to help people and the Hippocratic Oath, or b) just in it for the title and prestige (and money).
Jennie is languishing in hospital for 26 days now, wanting to get out. If I had millions of bucks/euros, I could make it work.
But the goddamn politicians and civil servants overrule the medical professionals. And cut health services to service their own salaries and pensions.
These so-called public servants are scum.
End of the lesson.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jul 15, 2012 - 04:01am PT
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^^^
Clueless
are these people in it for... the money
Anyone who thinks that doctors are making a lot of money these days is clueless
The worst thing that has happened to medicine is privatization. "Profit" has become more important than "care." I can't wait for medical care to be taken out of private control and finally become regulated by the government.
Perfect solution? No. But INFINITELY better than what we have now.
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JMC
climber
the swamp
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Jul 15, 2012 - 04:02am PT
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Work on focusing your vitriol and frustration. Is it doctors, politicians/civil servants, or yourself you are after?
4 years in medical school, another 12-18 months internship, residency of 2-7 years. Yes, being a doctor is the easy way to glory and cash. What other profession requires that intensity and duration of training?
Roughly half of my family is in medicine, the other half in engineering and a few teachers, artists, and a lawyer in the mix (half man, half bear, half pig). The doctors in my family make good money and I don't begrudge them it at all - they work hard to keep their skills sharp, are advancing their field, do regular charitable missions around the world, and kick ass in general.
By your own account you quit and took an easier road.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 15, 2012 - 06:30am PT
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On the other hand most Ph.D's went to university for 8-9 years, did original research, sometimes in Third World conditions after learning foreign languages, still suffer the effects of dieases picked up in those places, had their research contribute to a better understanding of our world, got it published in peer reviewed journals, and after all that still make only 20% or less of of what doctors make. Does that also seem fair to you?
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JMC
climber
the swamp
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Jul 15, 2012 - 06:42am PT
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Jan, Most PhDs have experienced that kind of suffering (disease)? No. Low salary, sure. Especially as post-docs.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 15, 2012 - 06:51am PT
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Obviously the insurance business is more lucrative than either Ph.D.'s or M.D.'s !
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 15, 2012 - 07:03am PT
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A doctor makes a mistake and gets sued for it, but a regulatory bureaucrat does something similar, and they remain faceless and untouchable. Insurance companies are in business to make profits, and they relentlessly charge the medical professionals to the point of retiring.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Jul 15, 2012 - 07:13am PT
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As in all occupations, the good far outweigh the bad. Some of all types do it for the money. Most do not.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Jul 15, 2012 - 08:34am PT
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I dropped out of pre-Med to climb.... I think that I would have made a great doc,
I'm thinking not, because you chose to pursue a selfish passion rather than a selfless one.
Yes there are many people who go into medicine for the wrong reasons, but most choosing to go into medicine now are doing so because they have compassion and drive. The selection process for med school nowadays does a pretty good job of weeding out the bad apples.
If you think spending 4 grueling years in a cutthroat environment, requiring countless hours of studying, taking intense multiday tests, then spending a minimum of 4 years in a low-paying residency while trying to figure out which flavor of Top Ramen goes best with Ripple because you haven't enough money to live while paying off your $300K student loan, followed by another 5 years of 80 hour work weeks for a whopping $150K/yr tending patients who are looking for any excuse to sue you and treat you with little-to-no respect is a good way to gain prestige and wealth, well I've got a bridge to nowhere to sell you.
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locker
Gym climber
DUH!!!...
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Jul 15, 2012 - 08:40am PT
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Brokedown NAILS it IMHO...
"Insurance companies are in business to make profits, and they relentlessly charge the medical professionals to the point of retiring."...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 15, 2012 - 08:53am PT
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It's really hard for me to see how a regulatory bureaucrat is able to charge a lot of money to anyone as they're civil servants on salary. The only way they make big bucks is through criminality and corruption and we have other regulatory buraucrats to check on that?
CEO's on the other hand kill people by surpressing safety standards, putting people out of work, stealing millions and getting millions more in severance pay and bonuses after bankrupting companies and leaving their pension plans bankrupt.
All doctors, Ph.D's and bureaucrats are small potatos compared to what we know of the banking business and Wall Street, not to mention the oil companies.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2012 - 09:13am PT
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You all have very good points that you have raised, and very valid points.
To the one that has said I was being selfish to drop out of my medical studies to climb, I suppose so, or maybe I just did not have the steel to be a doctor. I often wonder that myself.
But being an EMT (1) and loading people into ambulances and helicopters, I did have that steel.
Somebody mentioned vitriol. Not at the medical profession, but at the bureaucracy.
Yes Ledge Rat, I am clueless in many ways. Having been a journalist for close to 40 years in five countries, I am still clueless how the politicians and bureaucrats get away with murder, while the doctors, nurses, firemen/women, teachers and others are left holding an empty pot, or perhaps a pot filled with piss and sh*t.
EDIT
When I started this thread, I was tired and frustrated. Of course, most docs I have met are very fine people, it is the bureaucrats that can be (not all of them of course) whores.
Jennie has been in hospital 27 days now, probably for the better, but she needs out. I am just tired, lonely and frustrated. Been gardening, housework, bouldering, free-soloing (easier stuff), swimming and such. But I am still frustrated. I suppose I picked the wrong Thread Head, but I did what I did.
I'd delete this thread but I don't believe in doing that. The opinions of those who replied is worth the thread to stay alive. Thanks all of you who replied, some not so nice words, but honest words.
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Riley Wyna
Trad climber
A crack near you
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Jul 15, 2012 - 09:16am PT
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As in all occupations, the good far outweigh the bad. Some of all types do it for the money. Most do not.
I lay here wasted after taking care of well over 100 pts yesterday in the ER. It was a battle but I managed to truly help a few people.
Health and the health care system in the US is so far off the rails it is impossible to talk about this subject in a few posts.
Needless to say a "for profit" health care system does not work.
I know some very good Docters and Nurses but there is absolutely no question the bad often outweigh the good.
I know many docs, no exaggeration, who are more interested in their car, coke and hookers than pts. They truly don't give a sh#t.
ER docs, and many other docs, can make obscene amounts of money at least in the places I have worked.
The system, the entire paradigm of our culture, is an absolute mess.
Our entire western idea of death and dying is just horrible.
Folks are tortured, prodded, and poked for years - basically mined in their dying years by medical professionals to pay for second, third and forth mortgages and third, forth and fifth wives or husbands.
And than you have the entitled pts - the ones who are so many generations removed from being able to help themselves, from working, from being any type of contributing member of society that it is hard to imagine how our society does not fail.
Inagine just a few decades ago there was no such thing as ER medicine!!
Now even 4 or 5 very large hospital ERs in a relatively moderatly sized city can be so overwhelmed with pts, ambulances, and drama that they all can go on disaster diversion at the same time on the same night.
For me as a Nurse - No matter what my title, no matter what age I live in and what culture I am part of, i am a good healer - i try and remember that all the time and I always remember that there are good, honest people "out there" doing a very good job and working very hard in what ever profession they are working in - I meet them all the time - I remember this and always try to do the best job i can for anybody who comes through the door or anyone I meet.
I tell ya it is a mess.
Diet, drugs, alcohol, obesity, smoking - folks have to try to start helping themselves.
Our political atmosphere, our consumerism, corporate power, our selfishness,our lack of independence, our health - we truly are a failing society - thinking about it now there is absolutely no question of this.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2012 - 09:35am PT
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Riley, all the times I have been in hospital, either for myself or as a visitor, I have only come across one or two not so nice nurses, the rest have been fantastic, overwhelmed, overworked but fantastic.
The other evening, Jennie was in despair, I told her and printed out a 'paper', Nil Desperandum (Never despair).
I got the doctor on duty, though Jen was not his patient, to sit down and calm her. Ronan (Irish), studied in Prague (beautiful city), and he managed to calm her down.
Ronan did an excellent job of settling Jennie.
Sometimes, when one is too close to the situation, emotions take over. Certainly, being an emotional person (ask any of my family or friends), I have... I have... been over emotional. And yes, to the person who said I was selfish for not pursuing my medical studies, perhaps I was. But you do not know me, and I do not know you.
Being a full-time carer 24/7 is not being selfish.
No, doctors (for the most part) are not whores, I just was tired and frustrated when I started this thread, and chose the wrong title... emotions.
My apologies to those in the medical profession, I hope you understand my frustration.
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Riley Wyna
Trad climber
A crack near you
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Jul 15, 2012 - 09:41am PT
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My apologies to those in the medical profession, I hope you understand my frustration.
You didnt read my entire post.lol
i dont understand why we have to all apologize sometimes for our honest feelings - folks should be more understanding.
glad you are doing better Patrick
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2012 - 09:49am PT
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Riley, I did read your entire post, perhaps I did not take it all in, I am still tired, up all night with a toothache, and as mean as a honey badger, will, maybe not.
Like I said (did I?), this thread has helped me to cope and understand a bit better. Thank you all for letting me 'unloose' my frustrations.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 15, 2012 - 10:02am PT
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I'd say the OP's thread title is a pretty strong, inaccurate overstatement, but having watched many friends go through the process of their medical training, I understand the sentiment. It seems to me that it's not the individuals seeking this career that create this hyper-competitiveness...it's the US (international?) system by which that training is made available that's the source.
"are these people in it for... the money"
The topic of compensation rates for higher trained medical professionals (MD or similar) has been in the news quite a bit lately- as I understand it, on average, US MD's are the highest paid in the world. (The same is clearly not true for low-mid level medical training, i.e. EMT-RN.) Of course, it's completely reasonable to argue that MD compensation has to offset the exorbitant costs of becoming trained in the first place....but one could also easily argue that it is ridiculous that high levels of medical training are so expensive in the first place.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2012 - 10:11am PT
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Apogee, I have already stated and will again, it was a stupid thread title.
I was just tired, wanting a drink (which I am off) and being an idiot.
And I want Jennie home, under the right circumstances (support mechanisms for both of us, being a 24/7 carer is not a piece of cake).
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 15, 2012 - 10:14am PT
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I know that, Patrick...not ripping on you. There is an underlying kernel of truth to your OP that is valid and interesting, though.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 15, 2012 - 10:25am PT
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My last academic position before becoming an enterpreneur was as a member of the research faculty at Stanford Medical School, department of internal medicine. I was in contact with top medical researchers on a daily basis, working in a monstorously depressing place: the Palo Alto VA Hospital. The researcher for whom I was working (as a "scientific "gun for hire") ran the kidney dialysis clinic amd was the professor of nephrology. I have NO idea how much he was making, but given his fantastic credentials he could have been making an absolute fortune in private practice. He was a truly gifted and highly motivated professional, one of the many I've known in my career. Subsequently he "moved on," but to another academic institution; not to private practice. His opus magnum was the invention of MRI Imaging!
The real problems, as I see it: too much governmental regulation that hospitals try to cope with, insurance companies trying to fob off the responsibility to the patient, pharma companies trying to make a profit for the shareholders and enough to underwrite new drugs in the pipeline, but worst of all are the ambulance-chasing lawyers. Not to mention indigent illegal aliens who get treated at everyone else's expense. Did I miss anyone? Probably.
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