poison oak and "chumash ethnobotany"

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Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 4, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
we've been doing the usual squawking about poison oak this time of year. going down the backbone trail recently, i was struck by how absolutely unavoidable the stuff is. yes, the trail is kept fairly clear, but it keeps growing back, growing in from the sides, disguising itself (it's sneaky that way) by mimicking the leaf patterns of other plants growing around it.

one of the things which came up in ST discussion is how sensitivity to this nasty flora varies from person to person. another is the reported approach, confirmed by euell gibbons, a major authority on wild plants and foraging, that the actual, controlled ingestion of the dreaded plant can build up one's resistance. this was also reported by a topoan who told of a rancher near santa cruz who had overcome his sensitivity by eating it.

anyway, i'd like to add the following, which will at the same time plug an excellent book for any southern californian interested in nature, the plants you see every time you hike a trail, and the heritage of the remarkable people who preceded us here and whose descendants are still among us.

from chumash ethnobotany by jan timbrook, excerpts on poison oak:

this is an appropriate place to remind the reader that i do not endorse any of the remedies discussed in this book. the chumash regarded poison oak as a useful medicinal plant, both applied externally and drunk as a tea.

mission documents from the early 19th century describe plasters of "yedra" ... as very effective in healing wounds. the priest at san luis obispo himself had seen a man who had been badly lacerated by a bear healed only with an application of powdered poison oak ...

as a treatment for severe dysentery or diarrhea, the root of poison oak was boiled, being careful not to allow the vapor to get into the eyes, lest blindness result ...

although many anglo-americans develop severe dermatitis ... this seems not to have been the problem for many indian people. indians may have had some degree of natural immunity to urushiol, the active component; perhaps they were also willing to tolerate a certain level of discomfort ...

... different indian groups had varying susceptibility to poison oak. the yokuts, a neighboring inland group, were said to be severely affected by it when they visited the coast, but the local chumash were affected little or not at all ...

immunity seems to have diminished with the proportion of chumash ancestry ...

by the late 1950s, chumash descendants no longer made any medicinal use of poison oak but eagerly sought remedies for its effects ... mugwort has now come to be regarded as a specific for poison oak rash.

some individuals claim that immunity can be obtained by spitting on the plant or by drinking a decoction of boiled poison oak root. others who do not get the rash believe that their practice of eating a poison oak leaf now and then has made them immune ...

as i said previously, i have no personal plans other than to continue my practice of visual avoidance, which has worked well for me the past 30 years in california. i spend most of my time on established trails, and i strategize my bushwhacking to avoid it. but i can't help but conclude, for those who have to live with it closely, like the chumash or that santa cruz rancher, that visual avoidance is only going to take you so far.

chumash ethnobotany is a treasure, available through the natural history museum in santa barbara, where timbrook is a resident anthropologist. poison oak isn't the only plant in there.


timbrook had her work cut out for her. she compiled this accessible and lucid book from material developed by a legendary ethnographer, john harrington. the photo page of harrington and his informants is as rich a look into the california past as you'll see anywhere.

jmes

climber
Jul 4, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
I was hoping this thread would reference timbrook. Having read some of harrington's notes, she did a fantastic job in this book.
Radish

Trad climber
SeKi, California
Jul 4, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
I have read that the amount of the urishnol oil on the head of a pin will infect 500 people. Powerful stuff whatever the amount! Someone told me about poision oak honey just the other day. Several swear that it will build your imunites to the oak.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
there's a difference between infection and irritation--and your 500 people would have to be 500 sensitive people. of course, nowadays that would be most people.

however the fact that the chumash had a pretty good immunity going seems to indicate that the resistance can develop and be transferred from one generation to the next. i think the reported success of non-indian people developing their own resistance means there's room for new research in this area.
juar

Sport climber
socal
Jul 4, 2012 - 09:35pm PT
wonder if their going to say this about epoxy someday?
dfinnecy

Social climber
'stralia
Jul 4, 2012 - 10:56pm PT
I'm still really intrigued by this, if I were in an area with PO I would be thinking 'bioassay' at this point. That's just me though.
MisterE

Social climber
Jul 4, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
Skip is very interested in SoCal regional botanical studies - I am going to get her a copy as a gift.

Edit: OK, found it cheaper than $418.00 - thanks for the book heads-up, Tony. A link for those interested would help the sticker-shock of the immediate search.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2012 - 12:15am PT
i bought mine at the new interpretive center at las virgenes and mulholland--paid full price, $27.95. nice place there too with lots of info, but i've already groused about the architecture.

you can also get it at the natural history museum in santa barbara:

http://store.sbnature.org/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_29

timbrook conducts occasional plant hikes under the auspices of the museum--would be great to catch one sometime.
juar

Sport climber
socal
Jul 5, 2012 - 12:28am PT
has anyone else noticed that
the poison oak in the foothills is far more toxic than what you run into above a couple thousand feet or more?

Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jul 5, 2012 - 01:49am PT
The Sherpas and Tibetan people eat stinging nettles and I have as well. Once they are boiled, they lose their stinging property and taste like spinach. I wonder if it isn't the same for the Chumash? The plant molecules would be the same but no longer be recognized as poisonous by the immune system?

Treatment for severe dyssentary makes me think it was effective for killing amoebas. Many of the drugs used for that from - arsenic to metronidazole, work by making the host sick but killing the parasites. Likewise poison oak on a wound would kill any infection and probably stimulate blood to go to that area

The Sherpas had two plants in the Aconitum family, one of which they said was good medicine and the other of which would kill you. When given to rats in a lab in France that's exactly what happened.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2012 - 01:53am PT
stinging nettle, at least the ones hereabouts and in europe, cause far less agony than poison oak or poison ivy. a brush against exposed skin will result in itching that lasts maybe 5-10 minutes. yes, you can harvest it easily with gloves--boil up the water before you put the nettle leaves in, then boil and serve like spinach. an italian chef friend of mine likes to use it in frittata. quite nutritious, they say.
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Jul 5, 2012 - 02:42am PT
has anyone else noticed that
the poison oak in the foothills is far more toxic than what you run into above a couple thousand feet or more?


Yes, it seems to grow far more concentrated with smaller leaves and a shinier texture than you tend to find at higher elevations. I've seen the stuff anywhere from a short ground cover, maybe a couple inches to a full on ivy choking out a massive Black Walnut tree with hanging vines and a stock six inches wide.

Up at higher elevations (like lower Merced) it's bad, but not that bad. Tends to be alot more difficult to get as well.


Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jul 5, 2012 - 03:18am PT
There must be scientific studies of the various species and subspecies of poison oak?

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2012 - 09:51am PT
i've heard pretty bad reports of the p.o. on the way to castle rock in sequoia np. generally in the mountains, it seems to stop a little above 5,000 feet.

the plant can manifest itself differently even within a few feet of itself, from very short cover to large bushes to, as salamanizer says, vines too big around for tarzan. it'll also be in bright red autumn-like phase next to the shiny, oily green of spring--saw both types just last week, right next to each other.

the mimicry of the leaves can also be pretty amazing, from very oaklike to nearly oval, all in close proximity. a beautiful, clever plant in many ways. as with squirrels, you can hate them, but you have to admire them.

stinging nettle can be found all over, once you begin to recognize its dark, ragged leaves. many foragable plants came over to the u.s. from europe, and i don't think the natural history is very authoritative at this point. i don't remember miner's lettuce in the midwest, but was introduced to it as a favorite trailside snack when i came to california. i've read that it originally comes from eurasia, which is hinted at in what timbrook has to say:

seeds of miner's lettuce, which closely resemble those of red maids (calandrinia), were a traditional food of the chumash. surprisingly, none of harrington's consultants actually described eating fresh raw leaves of miner's lettuce, though many other california peoples did and continue to do so. they did say that the leaves were boiled and eaten. this practice may have been introduced in historic times, however, for there is little evidence that the chumash formerly ate cooked greens.

the illustrations by chris chapman are another delight of this terrific book:

justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jul 5, 2012 - 10:07am PT
I'm psyched the hubby is getting me a copy. I'll pass on a cup of PO tea though.

California has stinging nettles?


Yup- several species. They are pretty much anywhere you have water, although I don't often run into it locally. If I recall correctly.. I believe nettles are actually non-native and were introduced from Europe. Tough, prolific buggers - they are all over the US now. Don't get me started on tumbleweed ;)

Edit: Simul-posted about the nettles with Tony^^
hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
Jul 5, 2012 - 10:08am PT
i've provided guidance to visitors from out of state on a few occasions as to the many guises that poison oak takes. one's credibility can be stretched even before introduction to the leafless sprigs. maybe this thread could serve as a rogues gallery of portraits taken in the field
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2012 - 10:18am PT
aw, go ahead skip--get started on tumbleweed.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jul 5, 2012 - 10:18am PT
I'll have to start keeping a photo-journal... poison oak's ability to mimic neighboring plants and change leaf shape and form is pretty remarkable. Insidious stuff. Makes you wonder what mechanism of nature enables that happen. It's not like the plants have eyes to look at their neighbor and say: "Hey- I like that leaf ya got there... I think I'll try it on..."

Anyone who has climbed at the Grotto at Echo Cliffs has probably seen the huge vining PO that is like.. 35 feet tall growing next to the slab.
Pretty darn imressive
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 5, 2012 - 10:48am PT
Good stuff y'all! Not to put too fine a point on it but I question the use
of 'mimicry' here. Typically mimicry involves an evolutionary strategy.
Is that really the case here or is it more of a 'convergence'? And, being
a near total botanical n00b, I wonder if these seemingly different PO types
are actually sub-species.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jul 5, 2012 - 11:04am PT
I think they must be different subspecies.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2012 - 11:07am PT
not sure what you mean by convergence, reilly, but i think skip is on the right track--there seems to be a mechanism involved, almost as if they're looking around and saying "i want to be like that". this little section of the backbone trail i was on last week inspired all this--examples of different leaf types within a few feet of each other, but apparently mimicking the other plants immediately next door. they didn't evolve that way, they grew that way from the last seed--or maybe even put out their most recent leaves to look like that.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 5, 2012 - 11:17am PT
they didn't evolve that way, they grew that way from the last seed.

Uh, with all due respect, I think you've been utilizing another type of leaf! ;-)
How could a plant grow a completely different type of leaf in one generation?
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jul 5, 2012 - 11:20am PT
The Japanese make lacquer from urushiol. It looks like the craftsmen lose sensitivity after extended exposure.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0536.1991.tb01876.x/abstract
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jul 5, 2012 - 11:22am PT
I've seen completely different leaf shapes sprouting out of different branches of (what seems to be) the same plant.

Now I'm curious. I'll have to do some poking around in Google for more info. I'm sure there are sub-species involved as well, but I'm not really that knowlegeable beyond my 9th-grade biology report on urishoil.

Side note: Sensitivity to urishoil is largely genetic and/or random. Some people get less sensitive with exposure and some people get more sensitive. It's a strange chemical and "conclusive" research seems to be all over the board . I was totally immune as a kid and now- with repeated exposure... can't be anywhere near it.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2012 - 11:31am PT
i don't think you're familiar enough with this plant, or plants in general, reilly--with due respect, of course, since you admit to being a plant noob. i've only gotten into it recently myself, with an interest in both foraging and gardening. most of us think of plant identification as fitting the patterns in the field to the pictures in a guidebook. watch an annual plant sometimes through the whole year, from cotyledon to death. you see lots of different leaf shapes.

i have an ebook by john kallas, who runs an interesting outfit in oregon called wild food adventures. he gives examples of the wild spinach plant (aka lamb's quarters, pigweed, goosefoot, etc) and its somewhat toxic look-alike, the hairy nightshade. the nightshade is adept at mimicking both the wild spinach and the also edible green amaranth with its leaf variations. wild spinach itself comes in many variations of leaf style. it's an easy forage in the alleys of the san fernando valley, but ya better know yer stuff 'cause it's not that far removed from a young locoweed plant in the same alleys, highly poisonous.

from kallas's edible wild plants: wild food from dirt to plate:

for our puposes, we will consider hairy nightshade poisonous. a few small leaves in a salad will not hurt you, but avoid eating this plant until we know more. the leaves of hairy nightshade look enough like wild spinach that you should learn to know this plant. hairy nightshade often intermixes with wild spinach and green amaranth. like a chameleon, its leaves can mimic both plants.

evolutionary selection? the subtlety of adaptation in a "subspecies"? i don't think so.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 5, 2012 - 11:36am PT
That's why I offered my humble comments with due respect. However, mimicry
and convergence I do know something about which is why I posed that question, respectfully. :-)

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2012 - 11:38am PT
if you know about mimickry and convergence, you can't be a plant noob, and you'd better tell us more before skip goes out and starts rubbing leaves on herself.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jul 5, 2012 - 11:49am PT
Just a preliminary search on google. There are only 2 species (no sub-species)of poison oak listed on the botanical sites. There are 7 species of poison ivy.

"Left: Poison oak (Toxicodendron diversilobum) is described as a shrub, but it often grows like a climbing vine on the trunks of coast live oak (Quercus agrifolia) in Diego County. Right: Poison oak (A) and a related, look-alike shrub Rhus trilobata (B) that also belongs to the sumac family (Anacardiaceae). "

I couldn't find a single article on the mimicry PO seems to exhibit, although I did find one one on poison ivy doing the mimic-act. Strange... perhaps tony and I need to write one LOL.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 5, 2012 - 11:53am PT
If it is actually a case of mimicry then you have to explain the benefit to
the PO conveyed by its resemblance to the mimiced plant. Convergence is simply
that the PO and the similar plant arrived at the same form independently.
Birds and bats both have wings but they ain't related and it ain't mimicry.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 5, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
I've read anecdotal evidence that eating cheese or milk from goats that forage on poison ivy (and I'd guess poison oak as well) will build an immunity to the rash.

justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jul 5, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
I'm using the term "mimicry" sort of loosly since that is what it looks like to my eyes. I'm not even sure if plants can do that. I'm sure convergence plays into it, but doesn't really explain all of what Tony and I seem to have observed.

Using Reilly's example... it's the equivalent of the bat suddenly sprouting feathers because a pigeon lives on the ledge next door.
labrat

Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
Jul 5, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
Anyone trying these? I used them a bit 30 years ago but not lately. Below stolen from the website.

http://www.hylands.com/products/poisonivy.php

"Hyland's Poison Ivy / Oak Tablets are a traditional homeopathic formula for the relief of symptoms after contact with poison ivy or oak. Exposure to poison ivy / oak often results in skin breaks out with red, swollen, intensely itching, burning, watery blisters sometimes followed by oozing or crusting. Hyland's Poison Ivy / Oak is safe for adults and children and can be used in conjunction with other medications."
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jul 5, 2012 - 04:17pm PT
Yeah- I tried the Hylands tablets as well as a the Newton's homeopathics. They seemed to reduce the symptoms and duration a bit but by no means did they obliterate the PO rash. Definitely doesn't hurt to take them in conjunction with whatever other remedies you may be using but don't expect a magic cure.
jstan

climber
Jul 5, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
Once while bush whacking in shorts to reach a cliff, I discovered I was doing pull ups on PO. There followed two months of recurrent hell. Later recurrences were pain and inconvenience free because I had discovered hot showers produced the same feeling in infected areas as did scratching, but without scratching's damage. For me repeated exposure to bearably hot water has eliminated the need to scratch and complete relief from the problem, generally within two days and without a rash.

Many people have posted their favorite remedies here. Hot water is all I need. Also, I have never used a preliminary exposure to cold water.

Even were I an expert on the subject, internal application of urushiol is not something I would attempt. My past experience has been too unsettling. I assume you all have heard the urban myth about the fellow who was immune and rolled in burning PO. According to the myth the hospital could not save him.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
probably would hurt to reiterate what's been said about ingesting it.

i came across an account of it on the web by euell. he said he had heard the rumor for years, finally found a few people who could talk about doing it successfully, and decided to try it himself. he said his routine was to eat a single leaf at the beginning of the season every year. he also considered poison oak and poison ivy to be the same plant, so he may have been talking about poison ivy, which is similarly noxious because of the same chemistry, as far as i know.

what euell didn't mention in that interview was what you can expect if you try it--internal pains, reactions, perhaps some drastic overreaction, as certain people get to bee stings. this hasn't been researched, and it doesn't seem that the nannies in charge of universal safety are willing to tackle it, but i think it's certainly worth a closer look--by those with expertise in this area. gibbons, that santa cruz rancher, and now mention by timbrook all seem to indicate there's something to it.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2012 - 08:43pm PT
goodness--you go talk to the gal in the other room and find out all kindsa stuff.

urushiol--oil of urushi, the japanese word for the lacquer tree--and/or poison ivy.

the study cited above by banquo tells of resistance to urushiol irritation among japanese lacquer craftspeople, apparently developed through exposure at work. of course the fine lacquerware bowls do not irritate those who eat out of them, so something happens in the processing and drying of the lacquer. but mariko tells me it comes from the plant they call poison ivy.

i know from timbrook's book and other sources that the chumash and other indians in callifornia used poison oak for the dark dye used in baskets, i guess another example of resistance--or maybe rendering harmless during processing.
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Jul 5, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
I'm with Fattrad on this one.

Zanfel is where it's at for getting rid of the horrible rash.
Follow the directions to the T and 30 seconds later the itch is GONE... NEVER to return again.

Miracle stuff
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 6, 2012 - 08:58am PT
haha, dingus--if you could only get away from all those trophy women, you'd start to notice stuff.

:-D
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 6, 2012 - 09:29am PT
this study was conducted by me, the results duplicated by JTM, published in that impeccably peer-reviewed daily journal ST. not that i'm questioning your anecdotal information, dingus, but you should consider that our poison oak may be a tad cleverer down here.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jul 6, 2012 - 10:08am PT
Yes- our scientific conclusion is that poison oak is insidious, highly intelligent and deliberately mimics the plants around it for the sole purpose of luring us in to make us itchy. ;)

....

Alright.. I gave it some thought and I have to defect. In reality, it's probably more a result of water/light/nutrient availability as well as the convergence mentioned. With the sheer volume of PO around.. it does appear to deliberately mimic it's neighbors sometimes.

Some plants that seemingly have different leaf styles sprouting out of the same stands... the part of the plant growing under an oak tree gets more shade. Slower growth, less water and light seems to sometimes produce a darker-colored, smaller, more scalloped leaf that closely resembles the oak's leaves, while other parts that get more light and water have more tapered leaves with less scallops. (Just guessing here). Every little microcosm may effect the leaf growth.. even in close quarters.

PO just seems to have a rather astounding range of looks for what is basically just 2 species of plant. I also find it's ability to randomly decide to be a vine rather than a bush interesting. I wonder if a plant as tall as that 30-footer at Echo has feeder roots anchoring it in or if it is all just sprouting out of the base root ball. I'm not poking around it any time soon to find out.

PS @ Tony: Does this mean I'm going to get slipped a PO micky in my locally-foraged salad next time I have dinner at your place Tony?

PPS @ Dingus: Yes Dingus.. our poison oak is smarter than yours. So Cal PO works for Rocketdyne ya know.

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 6, 2012 - 10:19am PT
i think you're reading too much into the possible factors of microenvironment, skip. on a trail into a new secret canyon last week i saw several leaf types within a few feet of each other in the same shady glen. kallas mentions mimicry in other plant species, such as the hairy nightshade. time for us amateurs to dig up a real phd here.

we could volunteer for the hands-on fieldwork, taking dna samples for the subspecies study. i think one argument against a subspecies factor would be that they wouldn't be found interbedding with each other in an established environment. we're talkin' old growth santa monica mountain poison oak--the closest we come to a natural treasure down here. i'll bet dingus only admires sequoia trees.

they made a lot of tarzan movies in this area. i wonder if johnny weismuller swung on those vines.

Does this mean I'm going to get slipped a PO micky in my locally-foraged salad next time I have dinner at your place?

i find it best not to mention this. people just come back, marvelling at their sudden immunity.

last night's dinner menu included the finest in SFV alley-grown wild spinach. i found a strain about 8 blocks west of here with leaves twice the size i've seen anywhere. when they go fully to seed, i plan to plant some in our backyard. also found a big pomegranate tree overhanging a closer alley--ought to be red & ripe in about 6 weeks. the local purslane seems to come with and without that seductive lemony tang that can give it so much charm. either way, it's a nice, crunchy element in salad, and ought to disguise, if not mollify, the odd PO leaf that might find its way in there. family appears alive and healthy this morning.

proximity to rocketdyne has been known to accelerate evolution. i heard that someone saw a deer with three ears on black canyon road.
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