Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 95 of total 95 in this topic |
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 27, 2006 - 04:23pm PT
|
With the latest daisy scare rearing its ugly head again, I did a couple of tests that you might find interesting. I guess the only real questions I have now are:
1. Should we even be making daisy chains with just a small loop at the end?
2. Should we be only making daisy chains that a clove-able end loop?
3. Should we only make daisy chains with the yet to be named "insert".
4. Please advise....
here are the questions again:
1. Should we even be making daisy chains with just a small loop at the end?
2. Should we be only making daisy chains that a clove-able end loop?
3. Should we only make daisy chains with the yet to be named "insert".
4. Please advise....
|
|
the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 04:38pm PT
|
5. Buy adjustable daisies.
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 04:39pm PT
|
Most excellent Daisy Death report and analysis, Russ.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 04:44pm PT
|
Check this thread for more info and the great BD video of "Daisy Death"
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=182550&f=35&b=0
DMT: ladder style daisy chains used to be around. Not sure where they went. Usually boils down to time and money. Lot's O labor in a ladder style daisy. I'll look into it.
Fet: adjustable has the fatal flaw of if it busts, there is no next pocket to catch you. Single strand failure = lights out. If I could clean up my desk I could find the BS data on Adjutables and failures.
|
|
fatman
climber
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 04:47pm PT
|
hey russ,
can you make me two of those?
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 04:56pm PT
|
Just clove hitch the end and be done with it already.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 04:58pm PT
|
Hey Dirt... try that with 1" loop at the end. Get your toy biner ready.....
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 05:00pm PT
|
or use two biners to adjust length, or only clip into one loop. right?
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 05:03pm PT
|
"5. Buy adjustable daisies."
Adjustable daisies (which I love for aid climbing) aren't remotely as strong as a regular pocketed daisy used correctly as Fish illustrates.
PEace
Karl
|
|
JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 05:05pm PT
|
I have yet to see the video? How is it possible that biner will come off the daisy?
|
|
bringmedeath
climber
la la land
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 05:08pm PT
|
Umm... we should... ummm... do nothing and see how many of us die.
|
|
susan peplow
climber
Winner of Diet Challenge!!!
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 05:09pm PT
|
Is that my locker your using for these 1600+ pound tests?
Hummmm
|
|
Corey Fields
Trad climber
Texas
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 05:11pm PT
|
"If I could clean up my desk I could find the BS data on Adjutables and failures."
That would be a nice comparison. I've been looking for those numbers. Or any link to failure tests on adjustables (ancra design).
|
|
JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 05:28pm PT
|
Some webbing and a bit of tape. HOLY F*#KING SH#T!
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 05:30pm PT
|
I recall seeing that Metolious Adjustables are only rated to 300lbs. Bodyweight for aid, not meant for anchoring.
|
|
Landgolier
climber
the flatness
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 05:34pm PT
|
how about this rig? Variation of that last rig russ posted. Could also be done by tacking the blue webbing all through one set of tacks. Actually that would be better now that I think about it. It's basically making the last link of the chain a full-strength grab loop, so that rather than tacks you have actual webbing that would have to blow for the grand finale blowout to happen.
|
|
Landgolier
climber
the flatness
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 05:39pm PT
|
Yeah, this would be better
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 05:49pm PT
|
Landy is right. Like this should work too. Anything that isolates the last loop will defeat the magic trick.
|
|
the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 05:49pm PT
|
We shouldn't be using regular daisies for anchoring either. Unless it's while you are pulling your rope for a rappel.
|
|
Landgolier
climber
the flatness
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 05:53pm PT
|
yeah, I was just trying to make it so that the last loop is full size. Also, I think the failure mode for the one you just put up (my first thing) leaves the bar tacks on the slack side of the daisy (the one that forms the loops) loaded in pry-open mode, hence my revised grab loop-style design. When that one goes, you have the straight side of the daisy and the grab loop thingy holding you, with good stitching orientation
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 05:55pm PT
|
C'mon Fet... don't go all "Chicken Little" on us. Daisy chains, when used properly, have tons of uses, including in and around the anchor. If you know what they can and can't do, your chances of survival are higher, but I hardly see stiffs stacked at the base of routes like cord wood from daisy failure. YMMV.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 05:59pm PT
|
Landy: there is no "slack side of the daisy" with the first one you did. The end loop is devoid of structure and will always lay flat. Your diagram shows a "pocket" yet none can really exist there in that form. The webbing will lay flat as both sides of the loop are of equal length.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 06:03pm PT
|
"but I hardly see stiffs stacked at the base of routes like cord wood"
Hehehe, hahaha, ..... classic line.
|
|
Landgolier
climber
the flatness
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 06:08pm PT
|
When I mean the slack side, I mean more like BD or metolius makes them than the pics of yours I've seen. If the daisy is 50 inches long, one side is 50" of webbing and the other is maybe twice that and gets gathered a bit to make the loops. That long side is what I call the slack side. So say you have one like that plus the gizmo my first design, and you clip the closest pocket to your harness in the same biner that is clipped in the end loop. You take an air voyage, all the pockets blow, and now you have 50" of webbing running to the straight side bar tack, say a foot going on in the looper thing, another bar tack, and then 100" of webbing going back to you. The straight side loads up, as does that bar tacking (which is good to go), but then things come to a rest with the other set of bar tacking getting pried open because the slack strand of the daisy isn't loaded at all. I'll draw it out and post it.
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 06:15pm PT
|
Russ, you mean, you don't use those toy biners on yer daisys?
Then what the hell are they for???
if you can't get the clove, try the girth.
But all my daisys have long enough loops for cloves.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 06:16pm PT
|
Landy: I get it. Pockets are about .75 of extra webbing to make the loop on the long side. So the more pockets you rip, the longer the one side will get, but only if you blow the last tack before the end loop. This last tack will keep all the extra webbing from ever showing up at the bomber end loop. So, you would need to rip a daisy from your waist all the way to the end to make the extra webbing rotate into a failure position. Hmmmm..... seems hard to do. If the end loop is longer than the extra failure webbing, it should never rotate that far. I'll look into it.....
|
|
Landgolier
climber
the flatness
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 06:27pm PT
|
Yeah, this assumes that you throw a lot of slack into the system with pocket blowouts. I don't think the loading is that good even if you only blow the last one, though, as as soon as things are at all uneven that one set of tacks gets the pry.
Black ovals below are the biners
|
|
guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 06:36pm PT
|
Russ...good one..What if we just "tied" one up from thin spectra? Remember when we made "aders" without stitching? Al la "Advanced Rockcraft"?
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 06:51pm PT
|
Peel an onion on these pics. Whaddya think??
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 06:57pm PT
|
Stttzzzzooo: First one should work, but a simple twist is pretty easy to have de-rig during a clipping-in-and-out fest where you are bunching up numerous loops and letting them drop as needed.
Second one, the 4 layers of web is too much for our bartacker. 3 max.
|
|
crotch
climber
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 06:57pm PT
|
Nice idea Russ.
If you take a short piece of webbing, pass it through the last loop of a standard daisy and bartack it closed into a loop so that it floats free like a link of chain, you've got a full strength loop at the end that won't get loaded funny or pop open.
Makes for an easy way to retrofit existing daisies.
|
|
spyork
Social climber
Land of Green Stretchy People
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 07:02pm PT
|
Sounds like something I might order from ya Russ. I will wait till you guys refine it some more...
But seriously, the first daisy I bought came with a little booklet, it talked all about the biner reclip problem. I thought everyone knew about this problem quite a while ago.
Not that I'm against a Fish daisy that makes it easy to avoid the problem.
Back to my mindless work....
Steve
|
|
crotch
climber
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 07:07pm PT
|
Can you rig the pockets to blow at a certain load, like a screamer? Screaming daisy.
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 07:25pm PT
|
crotch, I think that is the problem with some current ones. screaming daisy=screaming climber=bodies stacked like cordwood
|
|
JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 07:34pm PT
|
That PAS looks cool.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 07:37pm PT
|
Kim:
Don't like they way they handle and tangle. The standard long ass daisy is my fave. They are sleek, lightweight, and have plenty of adjustments that stay open when the daisy is weighted. The POS will have its loops close when under a load.
After all you guys have now got me paranoid after 25+ years, I'm going to use the FISH Super Daisy .... oh wait... that's what I have been using ;)
Seriously.... I'll probably go to a clove hitch in the end, tack in the insert, or make one of them directional guys. I'll make Susan use the ultra bomber Directional Guy. I want to at least be *able* to see the "edge" from my new found world of puss-dom
|
|
JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 07:41pm PT
|
What's the link to get a Fish Daisy?
Juan
|
|
Thom
Trad climber
South Orange County, CA
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 08:20pm PT
|
Aren't we over-reacting just a tad? Yes, the deviously deceptive and daring "Daisy Clip-O-Death" could get you an "E-ticket" for your last ride (right up there with the "Sliding X of Death" and the "American Triangle of Death"). But, as Russ pointed out,
"... don't go all "Chicken Little" on us."
and
"... I hardly see stiffs stacked at the base of routes like cord wood from daisy failure."
Couldn't we just use two 'biners and call it a day?
We're discussing a way to prevent improper use of equipment from killing us, rather than discussing the proper use of said equipment. Unless every manufacturer of daisies changed their design, a new "specialized" daisy developed by one manufacturer still doesn't stop people from using other daisies incorrectly. This doesn't seem the best way to go IMO, especially since the solution is so simple.
The flaw is not in the design, but in the use.
Cheers,
Thom
|
|
JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 08:36pm PT
|
LOL, how much do the want for her?
I wonder what type of computer is inside her?
What does she say?
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 08:42pm PT
|
I thought the whole idea was to save people from themselves? Impossible task I know... I can imagine a fool with a daisy chain made from welded quick links somehow getting loose of the system and heading off to the great beyond.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 08:43pm PT
|
Juan:
The one I got I had to send back.... all it said was "Juan... you are the best." Might work for you though....
|
|
mark miller
Social climber
Reno
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 08:52pm PT
|
Thanks for all the work Russ on the daisy chain, BUTT.... I've been using the daisy chain gig for over 14 years (I used to do alot of climing with a 3 person team and switching ropes, arguing over who got the next pitch was easier). But the daisy chain is for convenience people, to easily adjust a semi hanging stance at belays and feeding T/R's. Why doesn't everybody tie in to the anchor point with the rope, remember that colorful thing you've been trusting your life with up until the Belay?. Tie a Freakin backup knot on your lead line, clip your daisy correctly to allow a semi comfortable stance and let Darwin take it's course on the rest of the idiot nation that has to be protected from themselves.
Leave the Fish alone to test shoes and perfect the perfect econo ledge.
PS Juanito do you only read your trolls?
|
|
cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 08:55pm PT
|
How do I order a Fish welded quick-link daisy?
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 08:59pm PT
|
Mark writes: Why doesn't everybody tie in to the anchor point with the rope
Mark ya dolt!!! That is just the point. For that split second where you are into the anchor with just your daisy, and you get light headed and untie from the rope for an unknown reason, then you decide to clip the haul line from your ass into the bottom of your belay loop along with the daisy chain, and then your partner uses his belay knife to free the 400lb haul bag from the lower anchor prematurely, and it goes all the way to the end of the 600ft static line... THAT IS WHY WE NEED A BOMBER DAISY SYSTEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
please feel free to post again when you have something relevant to the subject at hand.
|
|
JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 09:03pm PT
|
Russ, Do you hava a problem with me using your cord wood line in my next staff meeting?
Thanks
Batten
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 09:06pm PT
|
I'm going into JT right now to test this new daisy chain.
This model has been rejected as not being safe enough:
|
|
mark miller
Social climber
Reno
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 09:13pm PT
|
Well thanks for clarifying that for me Russ, after 6 mistakes I can rest easier knowing my Fish ultra Darwin proof daisy chain will protect me from myself. Does it come in red?
|
|
yo
climber
I'm so over it
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 09:27pm PT
|
Is that Beckey?
My true Yosemite story: High on Mescalito (the route) I went to that old two bolt anchor 20 above a huge ledge. Know the one? One bolt with hanger, one hangerless threader. Looped that with a rivet hanger, clipped in a daisy to each. Took in slack and tied the jug line into a sliding X. Did not tie in shorter. Hauled. Buddy comes up, starts backcleaning the C1 (admittedly a tad rotten) decides to blow out about 15 feet up so I can catch the factor 2 across my thigh with my (now-broken) finger caught in the belay device, which was an honest-to-God figure 8. The stitching gave a little on one daisy but the pocket didn't blow.
All true.
I am cordwood.
I'm also looking for partners. PM me.
|
|
Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 09:30pm PT
|
Unless you're worried about the whole loop breaking (i.e. the full-strength sling bar tacking that makes it one big loop) why is a clove hitch any better than jsut using a girth hitch? This takes up quite a bit less of the sling...
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 09:37pm PT
|
A girth hitch would be fine, but,..... if your girth hitch is not cinched up real tight it has the potential to walk up the biner and then when you load it, it unclips itself. Just did it myself as a test.
addendum: I was goofing around with this some more and if the girth is not real tight, you can wiggle the biner around enough to get the biner to come out of the hitch and fall to the ground. Remote chances at best, but it is repeatable in the lab.
|
|
jackass
climber
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2006 - 11:51pm PT
|
Russ,
Since you have the equipment. How does a double length nylon runner tied in off-setting loops by using overhand knots stack up? What kind of forces would it take to "pull through" an overhand knot or make the runner fail?
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2006 - 12:33am PT
|
Those knots will fail or roll at exactly 16Ks
(Ks = Kilo-shitloads)
Sounds bomber to me. I bet they fail at about 50% of the rated webbing strength.
|
|
cadl
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2006 - 02:05am PT
|
OK, bear with me ... first time posting an image ....
A slight variation on Russ' and Landy's design. Haven't thought through every angle and definitely have not done a dry-run test, but I think this will encounter a shear force in all scenarios. Have at it:
Happy and serene:
Alive, but ruined a perfectly good set of shorts. Where's the waste case?
|
|
JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2006 - 02:29am PT
|
For my next magic trip I will show how a eight harness knott will
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2006 - 07:29am PT
|
I still can't believe I didn't understand this! Thanks for posting the video link and the other stuff. Geeeeeezzzz.......
|
|
the Fet
Trad climber
: morF
|
|
|
May 11, 2006 - 11:20am PT
|
Russ, if you are still working on this fool-proof daisy for anchoring, I'd recommend reading this thread.
Daisy chain question.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/111061
Here is a quote from Largo, in turn quoted from an earlier RC thread:
Largo wrote: pg 5 of sliding x thread
Quote:
"That's why a person should never tie into the anchor with a tech cord/web daisy. A daisy made out of anything but nylon is a serious liability because it can cause shock loading (as seen in the recent Rock and Ice expose). You ALWAYS tie into the anchor master point with the climbing rope. NO exceptions."
Jim at Sterling has been drop testing daisies, etc. Defineatly stay away from spectra/dyneema. Here are some select quotes from sterlingjim regarding some very high force tests:
"Spectra daisies or slings should never be your sole connection to the anchor and probably should not be your primary. It's not the force of your partner falling in any scenario that's the problem. The problem is you falling directly on the anchor while attached with a very static 'umbilical'. How could this happen if you're hanging on the sling? Suppose you step up for some reason to adjust something or fiddle stuff around then fall backwards and BAM! You may break the sling, you may break your back, you may crush your kidneys. A whole bunch of unpleasant things may happen. Of course it's entirely dependent on how long the fall is but static materials care very little about fall factors they only care about force and how quickly it is applied.
Here is a sample of the tests:
11/16" nylon, impact force 18.4kN, held
1" nylon, impact force 21.11kN, held
1/2" Spectra, impact force, 20.02kN, failed
5/8" Spectra, impact force, 19.2kN, failed
10mm Dyneema, impact force, 18.9kN, failed
The impacts listed were the highest recorded out of five drops on each. All nylon slings held. All Spectra and Dyneema slings failed. All slings had a minimum rating of 22kN. A fresh sling was used for every single drop. It should be noted that even the nylon slings recorded very high impacts, high enough to threaten the anchor and certainly high enough to cause serious personal injury."
He also tested the Metolious PAS:
"OK, standard disclaimer: this is a very severe test and should not be considered conclusive in any way.
the results:
They died quick and painless.
Sample #1) 21.5 kN at 0.014 sec. broke
Sample #2) 21.7 kN at 0.018 sec. broke
FF just under 2, probably about 1.9. Mass 80kg. Drop distance 48"+/- 2"
"
So, it looks like good old nylon slings maybe the best thing we currently have to anchor with, if you can't use the rope. With a nylon daisy you are looking at possibly ripping out body weight pockets and ending up with a compromised sling due to all the ripped out bar tacks.
-The sky IS falling, or is that just cord wood, or perhaps parts of alien spaceships.
|
|
rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
May 11, 2006 - 12:05pm PT
|
Personally I like cald's design (above) with reinforcment tucked inside the next to last pocket. simple, clean, probably cheap to manufacture. Having the extra piece tacked on the end like Russ's makes me nervous.
But I have a feeling that now that this is a public issue and the risks are well known any manufacturer who doesn't change their design is going to get their butt sued if a dad with 5 kids blows out of his daisy and decks. Current designs really are defective to my mind.
Of course there is always a work-around, clove hitch or two biners but hey, sh#t happens and not everyone reads supertopo. Why do we wear seat belts.
Personally I rarely belay off of only a daisy but I've probably done it, and probably shortened up by clipping a pocket. I also use daisys for jugging and again shorten up by clipping pocket. Glad I never had the opportunity to shock-load the system.
|
|
kimgraves
Trad climber
Brooklyn, NY
|
|
|
May 11, 2006 - 12:44pm PT
|
Hi Russ,
How about this design?
This way you have the strength and safety of the PAS, you don't need to girth the the daisy and you still preserve the functionality of the traditional daisy.
Cheers, Kim
|
|
crotch
climber
|
|
|
May 11, 2006 - 01:28pm PT
|
Here's the same design with an integrated screamer at the end. Probably not enough room to absorb much force, but who knows.
|
|
katiebird
Sport climber
austin
|
|
|
May 11, 2006 - 01:37pm PT
|
I vote for no more dasies with small loop ends- you can't hitch them and there are many unawares that will only use one biner to shorten and not twist the daisy.
Also, maybe in the tags for purchae there should be instructions on the best ways to use and the worst ways to misuse.
|
|
jdclimber
Mountain climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
May 11, 2006 - 02:37pm PT
|
Years ago I tied a simple Overhand knot in the last loop of the daisy to prevent the death scenerio, this made the last pocket smaller. This was a Spectera Daisy, which has it's own problems, and the knot ended up being fairly small but has served me well.
Any reason why this can't be the solution going forward rather than many stitches and bits of webbing?
First daisy I ever owned was a big ol sling of 1" tubular with a heap of overhand (doubled) knots in the sling creating pockets. Far from Sexy, but safe just the same.
Any tests with that config Russ?
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2006 - 02:55pm PT
|
Any reason why this can't be the solution going forward rather than many stitches and bits of webbing?
Too easy.
|
|
rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
|
|
|
May 11, 2006 - 03:53pm PT
|
Having dealt with this problem before, I switched to the Mountain Tools anchor chains. They're stitched to hold 1100lb in the pockets and 4950 end to end. I tested a pocket on one I retired And it popped at over 1400lb. . Good enough for me. http://mountaintools.com/cat/mt/web/mt_anchorchain.htm
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2006 - 04:09pm PT
|
wedgee: you have just switched to the exact thing we have been talking about. That ain't gonna save you and is just a regular daisy chain.
Here is a small test from a previous thread.
Similar numbers and construction. The headless chickens are saying this will get you killed. I suggest reading all the threads once more.
|
|
susan peplow
climber
Winner of Diet Challenge!!!
|
|
|
May 11, 2006 - 08:05pm PT
|
Nice biner change on the tests Russ. Glad to see you're using Coz's stuff now.
xo
|
|
rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
|
|
|
May 11, 2006 - 08:34pm PT
|
Russ, I use M.T.'s because of the stronger pocket strength. Others I've used blow @ >250lb, which is barely a bounce test. I clip end to end and shorten with a key lock biner as opposed to a fifi.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2006 - 08:38pm PT
|
blow at 250 OR rated to 250?
If you have pockets blowing out at 250 lbs you should out the maker RIGHT NOW as those WILL get you killed.
Fattrad: Keep 'em. This is all just hysteria. In 96.3% of applications shoelace would probably work. Remember, when you number is up it's up... ain't no dasiy gonna save ya when it is your time to go.
|
|
JAK
Sport climber
Central NC
|
|
|
May 11, 2006 - 08:57pm PT
|
Yeah, most of the time, you're never going to be able to replicate these falls that tests show break runners. It's highly unlikely to take a factor-two fall directly onto a completely static anchor.
That said, I would prefer a dynamic link between myself and an anchor, as my *body* would probably break before the runner did. I'm wondering why no one has looked into a kernmantle constructed anchor system modeled after rope and dynamic to significantly lessen impact forces.
Probably too expensive to R&D.
I stick with the contention that your best safety practice is not to fall off the rock.
|
|
JAK
Sport climber
Central NC
|
|
|
May 11, 2006 - 09:41pm PT
|
Uh, I'm always interested in improving the chances of me not dying...
|
|
Mackavus
climber
|
|
Dudes,
Am I understanding that throwing an overhand in the last loop will prevent the magic trick? And although this works we are trying to come up with a better solution? This is how I have my daisy rigged as it made sense to me, but I had to flip the damn thing around because it is a BD and the end loop was too small for this. So, the end loop is really the harness end and vice versa.
Also, and yell at me if this has been said, rather than adding a loop as the above suggestions stated with dual bar tacks and what not; couldn't you just make the last bartack full strength? That way you would have one bomb-ass pocket at the end of the chain, and if the others blow your still set. Right? I guess what I am saying is that I see how the "insert" is cool, but if you are going to start making them like that, why not just bartack the last tack to the max?
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
Clove, not overhand.
Russ, yeah, make em clove size loop only, it's gotta be the simplest way, eh?
|
|
Burns
Trad climber
Arlington, VA
|
|
Mack is right, we're overthinking this.
Several pretty simple solutions (that don't involve buying new gear) have been presented:
An overhand in the last loop
A clove hitch in the last loop
Shortening your daisy with a second biner, leaving the anchor end biner through only the end loop at all times.
Shortening your daisy with a spare biner from the harness end, like you do with your fifi.
There's probably a few more, I prefer the fourth option as I found the clove hitch to be a pain the the crapper when I wanted to flip the biner, hadn't tried the overhand yet, but I don't think my loops are big enough. Second biner on the end of the line seems like a pain. Also, I have a misty nylon daisy that has a pretty small end loop, so when I tried out the clove hitch option, I just flipped the whole rig around so the girth-hitch loop became the end loop since it was bigger. Still don't like the clove option though.
Of course, none of those are idiotproof like a special for-idiots daisy would be...
Edit: If you did produce a daisy with the extra bar tacking, etc, you could call it the FID (For Idiots Daisy), kinda like the metolius PAS.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2006 - 10:03pm PT
|
since I am on a death, destruction, and test mode..... bump this action
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
|
Oct 31, 2006 - 10:56pm PT
|
OK so here is my 2 cents worth. Why do any of those options (other than full strength bar tacking all pockets)? I have never liked or been comfortable with girth hitching or clove hitching or over hand knotting one material to another particularily when they are of differing dimensions. IMHO the easiest answer is to just attach your daisy to your harness with a locking carabiner. No knots no fuss full strength.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2006 - 11:01pm PT
|
philo.... did you read this stuff? It has nothing to do with how you attach it to your harness. It is all about the business end, not the harness end.
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
Russ, I did read it all and I thought most were in agreement that a second biner was the easiest and safest way to adjust the business end of the daisy. That still leaves all the long term wear and tear of the girth hitched harness endof the daisy. That is what I was refering to. Modifications to the biz end are all well and good but where is the most likely point of crtical failure?
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
Having never seen or used a daisy chain I will limit my comments to using as a variable tie in, the old knotted et's we used to make from a single humongous knotted 1" sling. I wouldn't and I didn't. If you are going to use a mechanical structure for safety you need to insist on having a lot of strength tests performed in exactly the manner in which you propose to use the unit. Without tests who knows how those knots would have stood up to weirdly applied forces? When you have a structure you can hook in using any of ten different ways, sooner or later you are going to be swimming in unknown water.
Faithful application of this rationale to daisy chains would have precluded the use of them now being examined here.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2006 - 03:16pm PT
|
Philo writes:
Modifications to the biz end are all well and good but where is the most likely point of crtical failure?
Most likely is far and away an improper clip in the middle of the chain. I've read your posts a few times now and I'm just not getting what you are saying. If you watch the BD video, that is the scenario we are trying to get around. Your attachment point to the harness, be it girth hitching, locking biner or 8 wraps of duct tape has nothing to do with the failure scenario in the BD video.
|
|
Happydraggin'
climber
PHX
|
|
I must be as dumb as my hammer but no one seems to have dispelled zardoz's original notion that clipping the end of the daisy itself (not(!) a non-runner strength insert, bar tack or additional short loop) ought to work just fine without a clove hitch. I don't see the issue and am now feeling concerned since I have done this (e.g., clipped the end of the daisy itself, actually two separate daisies each girth hitched through my harness with separate biners attached to the anchors) without incident for many years and I don't see the BD video as telling me that I shouldn't continue my current practice; however, the video does highlight the issues with non-runner strength materials, bar tacks, short loops and the like that have long been understood to be potentially deadly. Thoughts (other than to go learn from my hammer)?
|
|
ADK
climber
truckee
|
|
The issue is when you double clip two pockets. Lets say you have a locking biner attached to the end loop in your daisy and you decide you want to be a little closer to the anchor. So you clip another loop of the daisy into the locking biner to hoist yourself a little closer. If the stiching blows out between the pockets, and you havent put a twist in the chain before clipping the second loop, youre going for a long ride.
When Im free climbing, I tie in with the rope. When Im aid climbing I tie in with the rope and adjust height with the daisy in the dangerous method but I have a backup always.
|
|
cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
|
|
There's always the Purcell prusik.
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
Clipping the last loop in the daisy and then clipping a pocket in The wrong way is the same as clipping two pockets the wrong way, unless the end loop tack is much stronger than the standard daisy loop tacks.
You can convince yourself of this easily with some tape and a sling.
|
|
scuffy b
climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
|
|
Welcome back, dirtineye. Are you up and about? I'm using "your"
knot for my shoes more frequently now, often on one shoe while
tying a "double" knot on the other shoe. Data trickle in very
slowly.
In other news, I'm just learning about using daisy chains
(but not fifis)
sm
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
Russ I know what you are saying and I agree. I am only saying that friction of nylon on nylon is a very real risk probably more so than a pocket blowing out from shock loading an improperly adjusted daisy. BUT, the constant wear and tear at the cinched tie-in is a potential and usually un-noticed failure point. You don't lower someone by running the rope only through a piece of webbing. That should be obvious. But what probably isn't so clear is how much damage occurs little by little to regularly loaded girthed or cinched webbing material. My original post was just to say that by eliminating that weakness
you inherently improve the safety of the system. Manufactures clearly state that girth hitching or clove hitching webbing redices the inherent strength by 50%. Why compromise the system before it even gets put to the test? I hope this clarifys my earlier (somewhat off topic post).
For the record I use a daisy as a personal safety teather only never for critical uses like anchoring.
Also for the record your wall gear has always been the greatest! Thanx.
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
Hi Scuffy b, glad you are having fun with those shoe knots.
One more point--half the strength of the daisy via clove hitch is way better than the zero strength you get from clipping wrong and ripping out the stitches.
|
|
rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2010 - 08:22pm PT
|
ever since this thread and the BD video came out I've been using the "overhand on last loop" system. works great for me, nothing to buy. Just make sure the locker is always going through the tied off loop on the end. You can then clip short anywhere without compromising security.
|
|
JBC
Trad climber
Tacoma, WA
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2010 - 11:24pm PT
|
What about the old Wild Things daisy? Each pocket was 'full strength' with a long loop for hitching to the harness. I still have one, although at it's age it is way overdue for retirement. The one limitation is that the pockets were directional.
|
|
willie!!!!!
Trad climber
99827
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2010 - 11:56pm PT
|
My buddy has an exploding backpack that apparently foolproofs avalanches!!!!
What if there was one for climbing with compressed helium that was clipped into the belayers harness (double lockers, of course) that had an altitude regression trigger!?
You fall on a misrigged daisy and next thing you know you've got your finger on the gas release, scanning for an LZ!
|
|
Decko
Trad climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2010 - 04:35pm PT
|
It's real simple actually, don't use Daisy Chains to anchor yourself to the anchor......
|
|
willie!!!!!
Trad climber
99827
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
|
LOL! Thanks, Rokjox.
I guess that settles that. I'll have to pay attention to my systems.
Pate - I'm sure they do work, cliff bands not included. I was just being ridiculous regarding "foolproofing".
|
|
cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2010 - 06:17pm PT
|
The downhaul on my windsurfer offers a possible solution. 2 double pulleys with 6mm cord, in a block and tackle setup tweaked to work as a daisy, offer a 4:1 mechanical advantage with infinite adjustability and it can be easily adjusted under full load. You could smoothy haul yourself right up to your placement.
If one designed a cord with a static inner core just strong enough for regular aiding but meant to fail in a fall; and a very dynamic outer core and sheath to absorb the fall, it could catch falls on insecure placements.
Here're some windsurfer downhall blocks offering even greater mechanical advantage:
http://www.windance.com/downhaul-3-roller-hook-pulley-pr-3115.html
Blocks with closed eyes instead of hooks and closed eyes for each pulley would be better for climbing.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2010 - 06:39pm PT
|
If you are belaying your primary connection should be the rope, built in shock absorbtion, nothing else to carry.
If you are off rope at an anchor while rapping/changing rope ends on a free climb I'd rather uses a sling or two instead of carrying a daisy chain for this one purpose.
If you are doing rescue, via ferrata, etc and want a shock absorbing connection you could get a lanyarnd
The only time I seem to need a regular daisy is jugging (I prefer an adjustable for aid leading). You want a full stength and adjustable connection to the rope that's light. But it not even really designed for that because a fall will blow out the pockets.
It seems if people can't figure out how to clip into a daisy correctly to prevent blowing out of it, trying to make it more fool proof may be encouraging people to use it in a manner that it's not really intented for (it's intended for aid climbing not anchoring). Sure you can use it to connect to the anchor but should we be encouraging folks to do this if they need a specialy designed daisy to do it right?
|
|
Forest
Trad climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2010 - 09:25pm PT
|
Is 3' of rope really all that dynamic?
Personally, I've always girth hitched a locking carabiner to the end of my daisy.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 95 of total 95 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!