Look Out! Danger!... Or... "Look Out! Weak Sauce."

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 681 - 700 of total 807 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
crunch

Social climber
CO
Feb 1, 2013 - 06:16pm PT
Hey Rivet Hanger

Lead used like this:

Rivet Hanger photo
Rivet Hanger photo
Credit: crunch

What is this called?

Is this called plomo?

And pitons and wedges in holes:

Rivet Hanger photo
Rivet Hanger photo
Credit: crunch

What is this called?

is this called empotradura?

Thanks!

BASE1361

climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
Feb 1, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
American high inbred coefficient aid climbing community

Can you please give us this equation? And how are you calculating your coefficient? Please take into account striking a beak 69 times and beating it into submission will change your calculation.

And when you run the numbers for this rather complicated problem you've discovered please also take into account gear placements every 6cm(Spanish standard) vs. every 2-3 meters (USA standard)
would be a factor.

Spanish rating A6

Yosemite rating A1 bolt ladder.

klaus

Big Wall climber
Pacif*#ka Muthaf*#ka
Feb 1, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
Please don't let that moron Pelut go anywhere near my routes
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 1, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
Don't worry Klaus, he wouldn't be able to follow one of your routes as they aren't an unbroken line of holes.
notreallyanaidclimber

Trad climber
CO
Feb 2, 2013 - 09:40am PT
Rivet Hanger,

ahora eres tu quien peca de xenophobo. antes que nada no soy Americano, y para que quede claro no estoy de acuerdo con lo que hizo Jensen, y si los Fisher fueran mi tierra ya hubiese quitado los parabolts y rivets que el coloco.

My questions seemed valid ones and were very respectful.

I simply want to understand if this "issue" is the result of a significantly different approach to aid climbing ethics between the North American and Spanish communities, or if Pelut is an independent thinker that has invented his own ethic. I think this would be good to know.

so here are my questions again:

 Are "hole counts" not kept during ascents in Villanova, Montrebey, Montserrat and aid climbing routes in general?
 Can you use chisel and hammer to enhance placements at wish in those places?
 is the concept "if you drill it, fill it" new to Spanish aid climbers?
 is the concept that "a hole is a hole is a hole" new to Spanish aid climbers?

This questions are not meant to be critical. I am asking out of curiosity. I have "trad" climbed a fair bit in Spain (Roca Regina, Terradets, Villanoba, Montebei -solo en Aragon-, Puig Campana, Ordesa, Pedriza, Riglos, etc, etc) but have never done any aid climbing.

Obviously wooden wedges are very useful in many kinds of rock. In the Dolomites they have been used since the first pitons were made, and are still very much in use today. I certainly don't argue their value, they are obviously a crucial tool, but my questions are completely unrelated to wooden wedges and their validity.

cheers

notreallyanaidclimber

Trad climber
CO
Feb 2, 2013 - 10:09am PT
Paul, Crusher, Jeremy, etc

I wonder if some of the concepts that you have outlined in this thread (a hole is a hole is a hole, drill-fill, sustainable -repeatable- first ascents, etc) are compiled in some sort of north america aid climbing "manifesto" or "declaration of intent". Does Middendorf have something of the sort in his website? The closest I have come up with are the introductions to Chris Mac's aid books. May be his new book How to Big Wall climb has such a chapter?

A compilation of the current "agreed" or "in use" standards/ethics (what is the right word?) for aid first ascents in NA would make a great lead article in the AAJ. Of course ethics/standards are an evolving thing, so it would not be intended as definitive, nor would it be intended as "the law of tha land" (god forbid), but it might help inform folks like Pelut and might avoid similar problems in the future.

notreallyanaidclimber

Trad climber
CO
Oct 5, 2013 - 03:31am PT
Crusher recently published a great piece about this discussion in this year's AAJ, "Look Out! Danger! A plea for restraint in the Fisher Towers of Utah" (AAJ 2013, pages 82-87).

It is narrower and more targeted than the "AAJ lead article" I had suggested in the post above many months ago, but surely for the better as it addresses very well this discussion.

I wonder if Crusher can ask permission from the editors to post his piece here for everyone to read? Surely very few people in this forum get to read the AAJ.

It would have been interesting for Crusher to get in touch with Spanish aid climbing luminaries such as Adolfo Madinabeitia, Silva Vidal, Pep Masip, Jesus Galvez, etc to know if there is consensus regarding aid climbing ethics in Spain and if so what that is.



justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 5, 2013 - 10:56am PT
Credit: justthemaid

Did I mention I love this thread :)
pelut espania

Big Wall climber
Espania
Oct 5, 2013 - 11:29am PT
Hola mi amigos y pero Americanos! El Crusher is not the aid man so his American dog like ways do not know about the A6 and Spanish mens with the grande sac. Do my roots then dribble on with your miedo as I am aid man and you are American dogs and puto sissy mens. Viva Espania!!!!!
WBraun

climber
Oct 5, 2013 - 11:37am PT
American dog like ways do not know about the A6 and Spanish mens with the grande sac.

I was in Mali Africa and saw up front your "Spanish mens with the grande sac."

A 5.9 crack bolted because you couldn't climb it.

You're a total poseur and sh!t talker.

It won't help you one iota as everyone else can see besides you that you're just plain full of sh!t .....
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Oct 5, 2013 - 11:38am PT

^^^

LMAO!!!...





GREAT RESPONSE!!!...

LOL!!!...

pelut espania

Big Wall climber
Espania
Oct 5, 2013 - 11:43am PT
WBraun you stupido americano! You do not listen mi amigo, are you deaf or something? Espanish man has very mucho macho aid sac and free climbing en Mali es no sac. 5.9 is no A6. Mali mens are no sac and Espania aid mans are mucho sac. Comprende mi pero Americano?
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Oct 5, 2013 - 11:48am PT

"It won't help you one iota as everyone else can see besides you that you're just plain full of sh!t ..."...




LOL!!!...

WBraun

climber
Oct 5, 2013 - 11:51am PT
I've been to Spain and hung with the best there.

So you're still full of sh!t pelut ......
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Oct 5, 2013 - 11:53am PT

I'm dying over here...

LOL!!!...

Gagner

climber
Boulder
Oct 5, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
Notreallyanaidclimber -

Good question about ethics ... many areas have their unique ethics, generally "agreed" upon over a period of time by the people who climb there the most and who put up FA's. When I visit a new area I'm rarely putting up FA's on the first trip, and take some time to learn the style and ethics of the area. Most of these are "unwritten", but tomes from Deucy, Chris Mac and others provide some broad based overarching generalizations.

I thought Crusher's article came out well, and took an unbiased approach that presented the facts - as those facts are very visible. I hope everyone that visits the Fisher Towers whether to repeat routes or to climb new routes reads and embraces the area's generally agreed upon styles and ethics, just as I would if I was climbing in Spain, or anywhere else for that matter.

Paul
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 5, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
The Fishers are far different from the clean granite of Yosemite. You can take some mud, moisten it in your mouth, and "plug" trenched heads. If you alter the rock in the valley, it is there for all to see for the next 10,000 years or more.

I know that we have all heard the stories regarding Beyer's ethics, and be they true or not, outsiders might come in to repeat his super high ratings, thinking that they are doing the hardest aid routes on the planet.

They see his technique and apply it to new routes, so these things spread to others, particularly those not plugged into the Fisher scene, like Crusher. I've heard that when you do put some moistened mud to cover a trenched alumihead, it is often visible as a patch of lighter colored rock.

There are many fer sure hard routes in the Fishers. What needs to come forth is an understanding that trenching or drilling holes, and then hiding them, in an attempt to befuddle the second ascent parties, is just lame. It needs to be written about in the mags, in an attempt to put this to a stop.

I've discussed this at length with Duane Raleigh, who in his old age is not at all into trenching or drilling. They would do all kinds of crazy stuff, such as tossing ice tools over knobs and jugging up to them in order to pass blank ground. Naked Lunch is supposed to be like that, and very hard.

I've also heard that beneath the mud, the cutler is so hard that you can bend a rurp if you try to pound it into blank rock. You can trench an A1 head into it no problem. When you clean the pitch, you try to cover the trench by moistening some mud and filling it, but as said above, they are still visible.

The mud-covering-hole technique needs to be stopped, and when they are seen, they need to be brought to attention, so that this crap stops.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 5, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
Base, I am not so stupid as to impugn your knowledge of geology, but how
could any sandstone be hard enough to bend a RURP?
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Oct 5, 2013 - 12:44pm PT


Pressure is amazing...
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Oct 5, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
how could any sandstone be hard enough to bend a RURP?

For example Eldo sandstone is bullet hard. Pressure and time, grain size probably comes into play, other aspects of the parent material was well.
Messages 681 - 700 of total 807 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews