Look Out! Danger!... Or... "Look Out! Weak Sauce."

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madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Topic Author's Original Post - May 16, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
So, I'm starting the SA of "Look Out! Danger!" in the Fisher Towers. I have spotty Internet, and I'm trying to keep a blog going about it: www.conclusivesystems.com/danger.

I'm most of the way up the first pitch, almost to the infamous hook anchor, as soon as I can figure out where it is (the "topo" is almost useless!). I'll report on what I find.

I can say this much already: This is the most contrived, manufactured, worthless "line" I have ever even heard of, much less seen. The FA team apparently couldn't even reach more than about 18 inches, because that's about as far between placements as I've seen so far. And virtually every placement is heavily drilled/trenched!

I mean, these guys were drilling big trenches for bashies when you could easily get past using Peckers in the mud seams (which I often did). They were drilling huge (over 1 inch in diameter) holes in blank rock and then (I finally figured out) filling them with some sort of weird euro-bashies. Then when they cleaned these, they just blew open the edges of the holes (because this sandy crap is so fragile), leaving worthless, flared holes you can't do anything with. In short, to "follow" this manufactured pile, you have to be constantly re-drilling the garbage they left behind.

And there is SO much drilling! Every 18 inches there's a hole... a BIG hole. And one of the guys brags on his topo: "Only 33 mini bolts were used for progression on pitches." Uhhh... yeah, right! There are more holes than that on the first pitch alone! I've taken to bypassing the giant, flared holes with full-on rivets, which are at least sustainable. And so much mud flows down this wall that within a few more years the eyesore holes in blank rock will be filled naturally.

I guess that these goofballs figure that you don't have to consider all the drilling and trenching at ALL, as long as you only count "mini bolts" as your definition of greatness.

I literally cannot express what an utter botch job this thing is shaping up to be. Totally contrived and utterly artificial "difficulty."

Oh, and about that. The first pitch is rated A5. Not! I'm being generous to call it A3, and that's only because of the difficulty in manufacturing placements to "follow" what they did as closely as possible. You can't pound a giant euro-bashie into a huge hole every 18 inches and call that A5! What a complete joke this thing is.

Well, I'll try to get online now and then to keep ya'll abreast of the SA of "possibly the world's hardest aid route" (as it's been called, lol). It's dangerous, no doubt. Basically anything at the Fishers is dangerous. You are literally climbing on mud. But the initial report is that this thing is the most contrived and utter botch job imaginable.
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
May 16, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
Maybe you are off route?

http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/a6_in_the_fisher_towers/

Keep the reports flowing!
mooch

Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
May 16, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
Off to FA this fun little tower


....A7 nailing????


Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
May 17, 2012 - 11:27am PT
Is this for real?

F*#king Spaniards...

;-)
wildone

climber
EP
May 17, 2012 - 11:32am PT
Take some pics of the damage!
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 17, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
A3? A5? No way. Fattrad told me he didn't find anything harder than 5.7 when he freed it last month.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
May 17, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
Spaniards???

Huh?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 17, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
linked from climbing mag

http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/Esther-Olle-en-Oju-Peligru.jpg
Photo by David Palmada

stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
May 17, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
Hot Flashes entry here:

http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/a6_in_the_fisher_towers/

I got a huge grin out of this write up of Intifada, on which the rating for this route were based.

http://jensenconsultations.com/climbing/intifada/intifada.html

A6+++!!!11111
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
May 17, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
Could be watered down, but

Body Water Lost Symptoms:

1% Few symptoms or signs of any thirst present; however, there is a marked reduction in VO2 max.
2% Beginning to feel thirsty; loss of endurance capacity and appetite.
3% Dry mouth; performance impaired.
4% Increased effort for exercise, impatience, apathy, vague discomfort, loss of appetite.
5% Difficulty concentrating, increased pulse and breathing, slowing of pace.
6-7% Further impairment of temperature regulation, higher pulse and breathing, flushed skin, sleepiness, tingling, stumbling, headache.
8-9% Dizziness, labored breathing, mental confusion, further weakness.
10% Muscle spasms, loss of balance, swelling of tongue.
11% Heat Exhaustion, delirium, stroke, difficulty swallowing; death can occur.

Dehydration can cause any or all of the following:

• Increased heart rate (beats per minute)
• Increased lactate acid in muscles (increased blood acidity)
• Increased body temperature
• Decreased strength
• Any of the following medical conditions: heat cramping, heat exhaustion & heat stroke


Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
May 17, 2012 - 07:34pm PT
Allow me to add some fun to the mix as I am wasting time at work.

Check out this picture above that "hook belay".

photo not found
Missing photo ID#248397

Homeboy has two pieces of gear in above the belay.

See the wires going to the draw? See how the wire disapears?


We will see...

Plaidman

Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
May 17, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
For perspective maybe Desert Towers by Steve "Crusher" Bartlett should be mandatory reading material before even venturing out to the Fisher Towers.
http://stores.sharpendbooks.com/-strse-13/Desert-Towers-%28call-to/Detail.bok
The style that these guys are doing according to your report so far is definitely not in keeping with the ethic of the area. The area is very fragile and you can really hose up a route out there. It would be nice if it could have been done cleaner even if it is aid. And 6+ doesn't even exist. I think that discussion has already been spoken of here on the TACO. Reading that Desert Towers book really goes to show what bad asses those guys were BITD. We have is so easy. So many tricks now it seems almost like cheating. But in their defense sandstone can be a scary medium. I much prefer granite. Although I think I hear Wingate sandstone towers calling to me. Hell according to Layton Kor a pinnacle is worth 5 Big Walls!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
May 17, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
What goes around comes around. Now Layton says that a good piss is worth five pinnacles.




So they were Spaniards? You mean like from Spanish Fork?
Plaidman

Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
May 17, 2012 - 08:09pm PT
Layton says that a good piss is worth five pinnacles.

Nice!

No from Spain. Which would make them .......... Spainards.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
May 17, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
So,.. it was Spanish fukkers not Spanish Forkers.
Gene

climber
May 17, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
A6 - It's all about the shoes the FA team wore and Google Translate.

Credit: Gene
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
LOL, Russ, off route indeed. I was thinking the same thing at times so far on the first pitch. But, it only gets hard to follow when the mud flows obscure the huge bashie holes, so that it's not clear where to go.

Pics will be coming. I'm going to take tons when I clean. I'm 30 feet from the hook belay. Brutal hot! And I'm trying to turn the first pitch into something sustainable, which takes a lot of time. I don't have this sort of time to devote to the whole route, so I'm not sure how this is going to play out. But I'll get the first few pitches anyway.

So, the first pitch is this....

About 30 feet from the start, you have a small dihedral that takes peckers in places. Otherwise it's blank, and the FA team trenched big heads. I could get past several of their trenches with peckers.

After that dihedral ends, they just got straight to drilling. It just kills me that one of the guys bragged about how few "mini bolts" in the route. Literally every 18 to 24 inches there is a big hole drilled into blank "rock," and they are almost identical. These guys were custom drilling for a particular bashie, and there are a few that they couldn't even jerk out, so I'll get pics of those. I've seen at least 30 of those holes so far on the pitch, and there are a bunch more leading up to the horizontal thing I think is where they put the hook belay.

Now these bashies had to be pretty good, because the ones they could jerk out blew out the edges of the holes, and there are quite a few still fixed with cable damage. So, even "A5" for the first pitch is a complete joke. Basically these goofballs just drilled a bashie ladder. And I can see more such holes above the horizontal ledge, so it's just many more such "placements" until you finally get into another small dihedral about 100 feet above where I am now. Of course, there will be more trenched heads in that. It's like these guys never heard of peckers and the like.

Ok, so now, what to do? The current holes are useless. "Fixing" them to take the same bashies again will take a lot of time, and that assumes that you HAVE such bashies. Probably a euro-only item. And that's a stupid way to go, because each place/remove cycle just makes things worse.

Eventually these holes are going to take angle tips. But place/remove destroys those also, so people will just drill them deeper. Then it's a ladder of drilled angles.

So, for most of the pitch I've been drilling my own rivets beside the line of holes. Mud flows are starting to cover the holes already, so they will disappear eventually, and a like of rivets is at least HONEST about what's really there! It's basically a hole ladder of some sort. The only question is what's going to go into those holes and how sustainable the result will be.

Don't scream, but I'm using those Zamac rivets. They stay good for decades because they do not corrode (witness: holding Ammon's falls after 30 years). Also, you can't use the typical machine bolt rivet as you do in good rock, because this crap is just compressed sand. It's even worse "rcck" than Cottentail Tower. So, you need something that will go into a fairly shallow hole and then expand in place, like a Zamac does.

Of course, you could go with full-on bolts, but then it's not a rivet ladder, and there's no time to replace all these holes with full-on bolts. So, Zamacs are a decent compromise, they'll be solid for decades, and they are still rivets.

Also, I'm getting more than five feet between placements, instead of this 18 to 24 inch ridiculousness. It's like these guys never heard of second loops... sometimes not even third loops! But, if you sew it up with bashies, you can CLAIM A5 and even A6+ (!!!), while making it quite safe for yourself. You're simply not going to rip a string of drilled bashies that are 18 inches apart!

So, there will be far fewer holes when I'm done (and the mud does its inevitable work), and what will remain will be repeatable.

Problem is that I really have no interest in doing this for 1000 feet. And looking up, all I can see are strings of these stupid bashie holes! It's not a worthwhile use of time to just drill basically a rivet ladder up the side of the Titan, and there's precious little natural features to work with. So, this is going to be one amazingly drilled pile, with nothing CLOSE to the hyped rating.

In short, I'm really torn. I want to finish this thing just to have done it, but the prospect of weeks of drilling in the heat just makes me gag! And the truth about this overhyped pile is already known. I will certainly get at least the first few pitches just to see if things continue this way. But after that, I don't know.

It's so frustrating. This "rock" simply won't sustain a "blank" route without it just becoming a rivet ladder. Intifada actually followed a line of natural features. There are almost none on this "line" at all. And the endless euro-bashies are just maddening. Well, we'll see how it goes higher up. Maybe there will be a bit more natural to work with. Crap! I can't believe how many of their holes I've gotten past already. At least five with peckers and at least five more with better spaced rivets.

Hype, all hype. Nothing more than a manufactured route DESIGNED to be an ego-pumping hype for "Palut's" climbing career.

Wow, you cannot BELIEVE the mud flows! I have silt in places you don't even want to know about! I've pulled down hundreds of pounds of mud... most of it going to the side of me. You can't even FIND the "rock" without major effort. Much worse than Cottentail!

Babbling now... must be the heat. I'll post pictures to the blog in a day or two.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 17, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
WOW!!!



Climbing controversy, on-site posting of the epic, and moral-downfall of the embellishing Dagos!

WOW!


Interesting reading on the links posted too!



This thread is going for at least 500 posts.



We just need the Dagos or their friends on it too!
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
May 17, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
Wow, sounds like a total joke to me. I can't wait for these pictures.

I'm with Jeremy, bail! Why even bother with the rest. Just take some photo evidence and save your hardware for something worthy.
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
May 17, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
Posting ON route? You have to be fvcking kidding me... we are all being taken for the proverbial "ride"...

stolen from a website frequented by nerds...
stolen from a website frequented by nerds...
Credit: socialclimber

Charles
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
May 17, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
I hope it's a troll.

Would be really good.

Pics would make a better troll though .
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
May 17, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
Pics of trolls climbing the route would be great...

Charles
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 18, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
You want pictures?

Here's a picture of you guys and whoever it is that has you so well hooked.
Credit: Taken from the internet
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
May 18, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
I love trolls!
iep

climber
May 18, 2012 - 04:31pm PT
Truly hooked. Line and sinker.
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
May 18, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
Arrrgh! I thought it was the real Madbolter. It was in fact the MadboIter1. Still, I think the rating by the FAs is a bit silly, don't you?
Plaidman

Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
May 18, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
A-6 is a myth. And A-6+ must be in the land of unicorns and fairies.
Anything above A-3 is frightening.

Found this on one site. I think it is succinct and to the point:
"C6 or A6 does not exist, since the aid climbing scale was developed as discrete scale that is not open ended. Also, since C5 implies the death of both climber and belayer, a rating of C6 could not cause an increase in severity."

[quote]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_(climbing)#Aid_climbing[/quote]

Haven't we gone down this road of rating aid above A-5 and I think there was some discussion as to whether A-5 was even attainable. I wouldn't know as I am not stupid enough to try aid at that level. Like I said A-3 is red lining for me.
j-tree

Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
May 18, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
Arrrgh! I thought it was the real Madbolter. It was in fact the MadboIter1. Still, I think the rating by the FAs is a bit silly, don't you?

Despite the screen name, the posting matches up with the posts on the external blog. Copyrighted to a Mr. Richard Jenson
http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/

and who is deleting posts? was 30 earlier today and 27 as of this posting.
zip

Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
May 18, 2012 - 06:16pm PT
hmmm, very interesting.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
May 18, 2012 - 06:33pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#248480


photo not found
Missing photo ID#248481


photo not found
Missing photo ID#248482


photo not found
Missing photo ID#248483


photo not found
Missing photo ID#248484


Drilled head shots from their video.

Way f*#king homo.


See how bored I am at work.

;-)

EDIT: I deleted a couple worthless posts in favor of these images.
Plaidman

Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
May 18, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
See how bored I am at work!
I see.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
May 18, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
Bwhaaaaaahaaaa!!!



Spanish battle armor!!

Look out!!! Aluminum hero at work....

All fatties too, at least use the #2's like any other self respecting
Chisel chump.
Nate Ricklin

climber
San Diego
May 18, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
Yeah, it sounds lame so far, but...


Finish the route first, then talk sh#t about it. If you bail from it talking sh#t about it is lame.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
May 18, 2012 - 09:27pm PT
Nate,

We don't know each other so pardon my French...you have no f*#king idea what you are talking about.

I would bail and go do a new route or a GOOD ROUTE.

Trenched heads in the Fishers is f*#king HOMO.

What a joke...f*#king as#@&%es.

J
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
May 18, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
It's all greek to me... trenched heads, etc.

But if Jeremy says it's lame(I choose to use the word "lame") I believe him, being a mud guy and all.

I read the Infestada link, interesting stuff...

A6? Not dead but super dead?

Aid climbers are already creepy enough... on mud?
¡No gracias!

Whassuuuup Jeremy!
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Topic Author's Reply - May 19, 2012 - 12:00am PT
Okay, finally some pics of the line of holes. See the latest post on the blog. Not great quality... just captures from my helmet cam. But they are clear enough to tell the tale. Once I get to the second anchor, I can rap and clean this pile. Then I'll whip out my Canon and do the job right. Then you'll see pics of trenched heads right next to perfectly good conventional gear, and there will be pics of euro-bashies right next to bombproof peckers.

Regarding "dissing on a route before completing it," I'm not "dissing" but merely reporting what I'm finding as I go (such are the wonders of modern technology, lol). You don't have to drink a whole gallon of milk to detect that it's sour. And what I'm finding so far is an entirely, completely manufactured route (even more so than "necessary"), done in abysmal style, wildly over-rated, and with no thought given to producing a sustainable/repeatable route. The "hardest" sections are perhaps A3, and even given a hook anchor (which is entirely contrived just to produce a rating), with the 18-inch spread on the bashies (some of which could not even be removed they are so bombproof), there is just no way that the FA team was looking at pulling the whole house down. "Harder than Intifada" not!

We all know that A6 is a mythical rating, but this route gets nowhere close to it! I've already done the "crux" of the route (according to the topo), and there's nothing proud here at all. This is nothing but a line of trenched heads and (mostly) bashie holes drilled into blankness.

Jeremy posted pics from the FA, which shows the same thing my pics show (and will show better when I clean the first two pitches).

Regardless of whether I continue, whether the thing ever gets a complete SA, or whether mud just obscures the whole mess over time, the myth of "possibly the world's hardest aid route" is already debunked. This thing didn't even knock on the door of A4, must less A5, and much, much less A6 (+).

I'll take a day off and then continue on. Much better pics to follow.

Jeremy, quit tempting me to bail, doggone it! :-)
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
May 19, 2012 - 12:05am PT
Ha...Infestada...f*#king hilarious dude.

JEFE! We should meet in the middle (flag? Prescott? Cochise in the shade
to climb.

J
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Topic Author's Reply - May 19, 2012 - 12:53am PT
Jeremy, you are a baaaad man!

:-)

Well, to bed. Wow, that shower was amazing. The first five minutes flow red. It's so hilarious... and felt so good after a week.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
May 19, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
What is Spanish for BUMP?
BASE1361

climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
May 19, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
Look closely at the first photo.

There is a bolt that the blue lead line is tied into with a figure 8. 2 more down to the left at approx 8-o-clock. 2 more directly below the hook on the far right.

"Hook Anchor" is a hoax
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
May 19, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
Uhhhh...yeah....
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Topic Author's Reply - May 19, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
I'm about halfway up the second pitch. There are two places that could be the hook anchor, about ten feet apart, but both are just horizontal ledgy things in the middle of the line of bashie holes. No way to tell for sure which one of the two is "it," and they both look about the same.

Of course, I bypassed this "anchor" anyway, because it's just a gimmick, and I'm solo, so a hook anchor is useless to me anyway. Both pitches can be combined into about 185 feet, which is what I'm doing. And the way I reworked the line, the rope drag won't even be too bad.

NO bolt(s) at the hook anchor, though. I can say that for sure. At least, nothing is there now. Perhaps they bolted, pulled, and filled the hole(s). I can't say. But there's nothing there now. Honestly, I think these guys "designed" this thing for a rating. And that anchor was carefully positioned to BE the "death belay" (right where the bashie holes get closest together, btw), so these guys wanted to be "heroes" with that anchor. So, my guess is that they didn't bolt.

What they did instead was drill some of those "bashie" holes DEEP. Upcoming pics will show that I drove baby angles almost all the way into a couple of those holes. So, the supposed A5/A6 bit was a true hoax. Just where they were "heroes" is where they really went to drilling, and SOME of those holes are NOT just for bashies!

Long and short: "No bolts at belays," but pretty much any other imaginable tactic to dumb it down and ease it up was employed.

I plan to finish the second pitch tomorrow, then clean. Decent pics to follow.
Captain...or Skully

climber
May 19, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
From your description, yeah, I'd bail. It just doesn't sound fun. And I'm a guy that climbed that bolt ladder from Hell on the Kingfisher( it took 2 tries, at that...). Trenching heads is lame anywhere, but extra lame in the Fishers. Poor method, even if it works once.

Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 19, 2012 - 09:18pm PT
I can't imagine it would be worth it to continue. I'd like to see photos of the drilled head placements though.
Gagner

climber
Boulder
May 19, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
The desert is a special, and fragile place. Climbing on Wingate sandstone is relatively bomber most of the time, but it is still sandstone. The Cutler and Moenkopi sandstone found in the Fishers is a different story. You might be surprised what's climbable, especially with Peckers, but there's no excuse for trenching heads, or in this case digging what sounds to be huge hole in the rock to fill with aluminum.

I'm really disturbed by some of the BS that has gone on recently in the Fishers. It sets a poor precedent, dumbs down potential routes and damages beyond repair the rock, making as Richard above says, an unsustainable route.

As many of you know, Jeremy and I have done several FA's over the last several years in the Fishers, and we've strived to do them in the best possible, sustainable style. Earlier this spring we started a new route on the Oracle. Jeremy didn't drill at all on the first pitch. However the second pitch didn't pan out, and after drilling a short ladder, we determined that the route would requite a lot more drilling then we felt good about. We sucked it up and bailed rather than drill our way up the formation (hence why we ended up climbing World's End, with its trenched heads, since we had all our gear out there).

I would encourage anyone thinking about climbing new routes in the desert, and especially the Fisher Towers, to really think about what you are doing, the consequences for the rock, and the precedent it sets.

The Fisher Towers is a special, largely unregulated place. Let's all be conscious of our impacts here and really everywhere, and let's all strive to mitigate those impacts.

Paul
Captain...or Skully

climber
May 19, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
Word.
There's only so much there. We could try not to fhuk it up too much.
Set the precedent honestly. Making the rock pay dearly can cost you, in the eventual...Probably will, too.
miwuksurfer

Social climber
Mi-Wuk
May 19, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
We send them Chris Sharma and Spain sends us these guys?

I think we got chingado in this deal.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
May 20, 2012 - 12:07am PT
What he said.

And...BUMP...because this sh#t is really f*#ked up.

NOT how you do sh#t.

PERIOD.

Jeremy Aslaksen
klaus

Big Wall climber
Pacif*#ka
May 20, 2012 - 12:15am PT
Thanks for that Paul and Jeremy. It's so screwed up what these guys did, it's disgusting . They should be ashamed for themselves.
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 20, 2012 - 12:26am PT
This is interesting.
I didn't see any pics in the blog post though.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
May 20, 2012 - 12:36am PT
That attempt on the Oracle that Paul was talking about...I got to the top of the pitch solo...well almost to the top...no drilling.

I sat on this pretty shitty string of crapola...looking at a big fall if I f*#ked up.

Had to bust a 5.10 heel hook to get on the ledge...GriGri jammed...aiders tangled.

THAT is what this place is about.

You would not believe some the sh#t those dudes did back in the day

DON'T F*#K IT UP PEOPLE.

JA.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 20, 2012 - 12:43am PT
Uh, are you guys really that stupid, or can you knott read?

This dude is NOT Richard Jensen. Can you not see the misspelling of the user name? [duh]

You have been trolled. I would have expected better from most of you.

Clearly, madboiter1 is knott Richard, because he is knott long-winded enough!
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 20, 2012 - 01:11am PT
http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/
Copyright Richard Jensen.

It could be an elaborate troll, but after reading his Intifada debunking, I'm doubting it.
This "route" sounds like a $hitpile. And if it's a troll, count me as hooked.
klaus

Big Wall climber
Pacif*#ka
May 20, 2012 - 01:15am PT
Pass the Piton, this sounds for real, even if it's not jensen the route can't be 6+ with all that drilled bullsh#t. An abomination like that should be outed on the web as such. I'd think you of all people would be educated enough to figure that out.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 20, 2012 - 01:19am PT
Very elaborate troll, and actually kind of well done, except his writing style doesn't match Richard's well enough.

Troll = madboIter1 has beaten you to Richard's blog, and lifted some of it over here. Pretty clever.

Of course, the reason one can be certain it's a troll is that there would be no reason whatsoever for Richard to assume a new identity, instead of staying with madbolter1.

This bastard is clever, I'll give him that. I would hate to be a fish when he's trolling his lures around, as he sharpens his hooks well.

Edit: Klaus, what appears to be real is Richard's blog. But do note the difference in the user name. As toluene*brainblow, you should be familiar with this tactic.

According to Richard's blog [thanks for the link, bergbryce] he feels the same way as you do [as do I] so let's wait until we hear from the real Richard Jensen, who will report his observations, and not this imposter.

At any rate, I have alerted Mark Smith, who is currently a little confused, but I think he will straighten us all out shortly. Kind of funny, really. I am snickering. I need a life. Badly. Get me up on the wall, pul-LEE-yuz!
klaus

Big Wall climber
Pacif*#ka
May 20, 2012 - 01:23am PT
Troll or not, the route appears to be a stupid hoax. I thought that before any of this discussion started.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 20, 2012 - 01:24am PT
Yes, you could be right about that, too!

Gonna be in the ditch next week? We should do some O.E's or some cab.

Mark - did you get Richard on his cell yet? I am trying to imagine Richard's response[!]
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 20, 2012 - 01:28am PT
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!! Now we're really confused! Here is Mark Smith's email to me just now:

Clearly, madboiter1 is knott Richard, because he is knott long-winded enough!

Moreover, there is a dearth of ALL CAPS!

Pete, I don't know what to think. I just sent Richard a text about this. I know that he gets cell coverage even at the tower (Titan), but it's 11pm his time, so he's probably asleep. I think all we can do is hang out and wait for a response. If it's a troll, it's masterful. If not, what the heck is Richard doing posting under MADBOiTER! The bit about running red when he took a shower sounds like Richard. That's exactly what happened after we got off Cottontail about 20 yrs ago.

This troll is a real Richard aficionado, it would appear!
Pretty damn good troll if he's got Richard's own partner flummoxed!
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
May 20, 2012 - 02:39am PT
Thanks, Pete!

http://www.supertopo.com/inc/view_forum.php?dcid=Ozg4NDQ8Pig, - total 845 forum postings found

http://www.supertopo.com/inc/view_forum.php?dcid=OzMzPDU4NiY, - total 8 forum postings found.
Da_Dweeb

climber
May 20, 2012 - 06:55am PT
Be safe up there, Richard. Looking forward to the pictures.

Edit: Also, my puny brain can't handle your multiple name variants.

Edit: Also, I'd bet Sweet Apple Acres that madboiter1 = madbolter1 <> madbolterI.
It's no troll.

Edit: It's a space station.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 20, 2012 - 11:19am PT
Another thing I had forgotten - Richard is a practising Seventh Day Adventist. He observes the traditional O.T. sabbath from Friday sunset through Saturday sunset. He would knott climb on a Saturday, in the same way as he and Mark didn't climb on Saturday.

I don't know if he would be allowed to post on a Saturday, however. Doing so might cause him to go to heck.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 20, 2012 - 11:26am PT
Does one go to heck in a handbasket?
Da_Dweeb

climber
May 20, 2012 - 08:53pm PT
Hmm. Good point, Pete. I hadn't considered that.

The suspense builds...
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2012 - 09:05pm PT
Well, I know that nothing I say with this screen name will be credible, but this IS Richard Jensen. I log in as normal, as I've done for years, and THIS is the account I'm saddled with. It's like something is very, very screwed up on that Taco's back end with my account! I've changed nothing, but now I get this slight variant of my former screen name. I don't know who to contact to address it, but it really is me.

Pete, you can tell because I just emailed you virtually the same thing from my conclusivesystems email account. So, you know that's for real. And I do have Internet in the evenings if I hike further out the train about 1/2 mile. So, most evenings I hike out and catch up on emails, post to the blog, and so forth. (Oh, and the blog is mine also.) I'm really baffled what's going on with my account, and I hope that somebody can alert the right people to connect my account up with my old screen name and past postings! VERY irritating indeed.

The pictures on the blog can be found in the "pictures here" gallery links on many of the postings. I'm about to post more, and tomorrow I'll have a bunch of the infamous hook anchor.

I combined the first two pitches and anchored about 30 feet below where they say to. Looking up that 30 feet, it's crumbly crap, and they tout another "bad belay" on their topo. Where I stopped, you can get multiple buried peckers, along with two of their buried bashies. It's the best series of placements I've seen so far, and a perfect anchor spot. It's about a 170-foot pitch, which is what these goofballs SHOULD have done in the first place. Instead, they intentionally broke things up as they did TO have the stupid hook anchor. AND, if you're just gonna drill all the way up the thing, why not just stop where makes sense and plant bolts for the anchor, even if you CAN'T get other good placements?

These nutjobs were WEAK in the pitches and then tried to be heroes at the BELAYS!!! SO, so stupid! And, given how things are turning out, I'm not even inclined to try to maintain their "no bolts at anchors" bit. Everything I've got is bombproof for a downward pull, but nothing good for an upward one. A nice, beefy, 1/2 x 4 1/2 inch five-piece with a rap-ring on it will serve a lot of purposes at the same time, AND it will last basically forever! If I do that sort of thing at each anchor, it should be possible to rap the route. Still just thinking.

Anyway, two pitches up, and the drilled/trenched crap continues!
Da_Dweeb

climber
May 20, 2012 - 09:34pm PT
Hi Richard! Hope you're well up there!
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 20, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
I did not find a madboIter Troll duplicate on this thread!


madboIter1 9 posts on ST starting on May 16th 2012. Then two posts in 2006.

http://www.supertopo.com/inc/view_forum.php?dcid=OzMzPDU4NiY,

First home was WallaWalla, WA, then Denver.

No other madbolt1 on the thread at the moment.

Did the troll delete, or is this the result of madbolter1 inhaling too much sand?
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 20, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
Well, how about that - madboIter1 really IS Richard Jensen!

The only way I can confirm this is because of the email he just sent me, which was in direct reply to the email I sent to him at his legit email address:

"This is really weird!!! I log in as normal, as I've done for years, and my user name comes up as madboLter1. Not as madbolter1."

Note from Pete: He really means his user name comes up as madboIter1. Perhaps it is hard to tell an I from an L on his portable device?

"I've changed nothing, so I have to assume that somebody at ST has screwed this up and is no longer properly linking my account with my past posts. I don't even know how to address this, and I sure can't deal with it now. But it's me, even though the screen name is screwed up.

Thanks for the heads-up, Pete, as always!!!"

Well, I'll be buggered. Certainly you can understand my confusion, when there was a previous imposter for Richard who was madbolterI. Thanks to rincon for the bump.

Da_Dweeb had figured it out, because he knows Richard. Thank frickin' goodness that crazy bastard left out the damn ponies! ;)

So Richard can *still* climb, eh? Not bad for an old fart. Hey Mark Smith, why aren't YOU still climbing too?!

Dang, now I gotta go back and read everything.

Note to our webmaster: any chance you can fix this? Has this happened to anyone else? Very strange.
Da_Dweeb

climber
May 21, 2012 - 01:03am PT
Hooraay! I will start up a Supertopo pony thread to celebrate! It will be okay because I'll put (OT) next to the thread title
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
May 21, 2012 - 02:19am PT
Hey Mark Smith, why aren't YOU still climbing too?!

Mark Smith turned 50 rather recently. Is there climbing after 50?

Also, Mark Smith has the nasty problem of a real job, one that expects him to schedule multi-week trips in the summer, a time when Richard Jensen thinks the summer heat of Utah would be too much for his (Richard's) aging frame. (Seriously, I was invited, but declined.)

Hey, on another front, here's what I find as far as who MadBolter is:
madbolter1: the original handle for Richard Jensen
madboiter1: the new handle for Richard Jensen. (Based on a phone call I had with Richard tonight, the Taco seems to post some of Richard's stuff under one name, and some under the other. Richard has no control on which name will come up when he posts. Maybe Spurrier can help figure this out.)
madbolteri: a self-acknowledged troll mimicking madbolter1. The "i" is displayed in upper case, making it look like a "1".
MMCC

climber
New Zealand
May 21, 2012 - 03:11am PT
I've tried to read Ulysses a couple of times, and been shut down in a state of total confusion. I'm now reminded of how that felt.
Da_Dweeb

climber
May 21, 2012 - 03:31am PT
Basically, the guy who is pretending to be OP Richard Jensen is in fact OP Richard Jensen.

He's trolled HIMSELF.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
May 21, 2012 - 11:05am PT
BUMP for more info...bailing yet or still working on drinking all of that rotten milk?

Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 21, 2012 - 11:13am PT
Over 50 and a job... dang, that sucks!

;-)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 21, 2012 - 09:12pm PT
Tada... I'm back as the real madbolter1. Don't know what happened. Same login, but now I'm back. Sorry for the confusion, but NOT, repeat (all caps) NOT my fault! OKAY?

LOL

Enough caps for y'all now?

Anyway, MANY new pics on the blog. First two pitches up and cleaned, and I took the time (solo) to set up for many pics and video clips to document all I've found. I've got peckers IN trenched head holes (good seams in the back... no need to trench). I've got bashies less than 18 inches apart. I've got DRILLED ANGLES fore and aft of the hook anchor. I've got very enhanced hook placements at the hook anchor. It goes on and on. Photo proof of one of the great botches in climbing history, and the lead goofball said, "The rating is not a proposal. This is harder than Intifada, which was A6. So, the route is A6+."

NOT "harder than Intifada," even with all the conniving to manufacture a rating! And Intifada wasn't considered A6 for well more than a decade before these guys did "Look Out! Danger!"

Looking up at the thing almost a year ago, I actually expected some seriously hard climbing... not A6, of course, but perhaps A5. I honestly can't believe the levels of absurdity these guys went to in order to manufacture a rating (and ego pump). And what they did to the rock would be unbelievable without the pics. Sad, so sad.

I'll go up another pitch (also rated A5) and see if the absurdity continues. I'm not committing yet to going further or bailing. I'm just taking this one day at a time.

Oh, and, PLEASE... no ponies! But thanks for the well-wishes.
Da_Dweeb

climber
May 21, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
HAHAHA! All right, bud. No ponies, I Pinkie Pie promise.
Johnny K.

climber
May 21, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/?gallery=cleaning-p1-and-hook-anchor




This is only in the first two pitches... :shaking head:
David Palmada and Ester Ollé from Spain are some class A bullshitters.
rick d

climber
ol pueblo, az
May 21, 2012 - 09:43pm PT
The FA are liars in the great tradition of Cesare Maestri.

those certainly look like drilled angles which equal bolts.

klaus

Big Wall climber
Pacif*#ka
May 21, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
when I first heard of this route I knew it wasn't for real. Thanks for taking the time to expose this fraud for us Richard.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
May 21, 2012 - 11:24pm PT
BUMP
rick d

climber
ol pueblo, az
May 22, 2012 - 09:01am PT
bumpty
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
May 22, 2012 - 09:18am PT
Weird shit
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
May 22, 2012 - 10:13am PT
Wow...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 22, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
Well, I'll continue for awhile to see if it gets any better. Thanks for the support, guys. This is one weird route indeed!
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
May 22, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
haven't read this thread, but...


How does anybody get excited about aiding up a dirt pile?



Other than the fact it's got a short approach, and was in Nat Geo about fifty years ago....


Any debauchery will melt away in a few years.


I'm prolly missing something, I reckon...back to work


Hey, tear it up boyz!!!
Da_Dweeb

climber
May 22, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
How does anybody get excited about aiding up a dirt pile?

Any debauchery will melt away in a few years.

It's pretty existential that way.

Also, some part of me can't help but be suspicious that the FA team reasoned that the melting away of the route would cover the evidence that they had torn out their drilled placements. They could claim it was as hard as they liked - at the time that _they_ climbed the route.
yo

climber
Mudcat Spire
May 22, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
If I had a nickel for every aid climbing thread Worrall came into and acted baffled about aid...


...I could could buy another beak!

Or maybe like a bigass cordalette, or another sticker for my helmet or something.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
May 22, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
So Richard, you be up there tomorrow? Wednesday? I may be in a position to lend you moral support....
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
May 22, 2012 - 09:47pm PT
Yo so true

Just don git it



Makes for some good photos though
Hankster

Social climber
Zakynthos
May 22, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
Spain Kicks Ass!!
El Puro Bar with El Pison in the distance.
El Puro Bar with El Pison in the distance.
Credit: Hankster
but not in Moab apparently?!
Funky post, I wonder if they'll respond?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 22, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
If Kevin wasn't ocassionally baffled by aid I would worry about him. Of course, he has always been able to free climb where some might choose to aid.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
May 23, 2012 - 09:44am PT
Next up ....



Followed by a mass hysteria shatting attack on their equipment.






It would be great to see some sweet climbing shots. Be safe Richard, have fun. That's a ballsy choice for routes regardless.....Wow.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
May 23, 2012 - 10:17am PT
IF this ain't a TROLL

The Fischer Ski Towers over-all aid rating is A4.75. There is a complex formula involving the number of towers, the number of and frequency of deaths which are then fed into a computer and the results are printed, then shredded. They are shipped off to the Moab Dump. Where this shite all belongs.

The fact there are holes being gratuitously drilled into them will have no effect on them; they will end looking like that huge-ass turd in a few millennia anyway, so why not hurry the process?

Keep drilling, you bastards.

Kevin, let's fergit these apes and I'll buy you a Red Bull.



madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 23, 2012 - 08:13pm PT
Yeah, I'll be leading tomorrow, Thursday. Load humping today.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 23, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
Lots has happened in the last couple of weeks. I had to go home for a family reunion, but I'm back on the heap now, and about 3/4 of the way up it.

I've been finding new, exciting tactics by the FA team. It turns out that they were also drilling custom holes, pounding wooden pegs into them, then sawing the pegs off flush and driving them when they were done, rendering them useless. Pics of these on the blog.

At their "anchors," I'm finding typically two deeply-drilled bashies. If you're gonna just drill into blank rock, why not put something reasonable in the holes, like bolts at anchors? Oh, right, to keep the hole count down, and to be able to claim, "We placed no expansion bolts at anchors." Yeah, right. Retch, gag.

David Palmada, the FA team leader, left a comment on the site. Google Translate wasn't much help, but I gave him my email address, as it seems he wants to talk. That exchange, if it happens, should be very interesting.
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Jun 23, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
What blog?

Link please...
hoipolloi

climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
Jun 23, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
Maybe check out 'Not So Soft' over on Cotton Tail.

My friend (who did the FA about 15 years ago) and I went this past February and I lead the first pitch, but we bailed, alas. Time constraints and his motivation dwindled, understandably so, I was surprised he wanted to repeat a route he remembered as being hard and scary when he did the FA. (Those who have climbed there know, it seems like it's not really a place where one gets psyched to repeat hard routes).

The first pitch was awesome, great thin beaking, with spicy free climbing ~130-140 feet. When they drilled, they did the proper thing and filled it with 5-piece. I think there were 1 or 2 bolts to get off the ground to the feature, then its almost all beaking with a few cams. There were two bolts on the pitch, one I couldn't find, so I did a few scary ultra thin beaks. Embarrassingly, after I moved past the crux (what was the crux for me) I looked down and had knocked a plate of mud off to reveal the bolt that I couldn't find burried under the mud. Maybe..A3+ (maybe A4?), you know how it is, hard to tell when leading. I think by the 'fall potential' type Aid grade there were some A4 falls should one find out.

The next pitches looked exciting, but pretty good. It joins the saddle of Briar Rabbit after 5 fairly long pitches.


That place really is spectacular, I know a lot of people don't understand why you would climb there, but the climbing is intricate and really complex. Even when aid climbing, it requires good free climbing skills to boot, technical aiding skills and a strong jedi mind. I look forward to going back...

I have some photos of the pitch and route around here if you want them.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 23, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
Blog is....

http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger

Pics of some example wooden pegs are in the June 19th post. Many other pics sprinkled around in the posts.

Yeah, the "intricate" nature of climbing is for real. Just thinking through how to establish rope-runs that will work (as few "rubs" as possible)isn't easy. The Titan is very "corrugated," with many, many "ripples" that make it quite difficult to fix ropes without lots of rubbing. I'm double-roping my fixing, due to experience with significant sheath damage after a single jug (and I'm not a "bouncer" by any means). The thought of being "rubbed through" and thereby rubbed out despite my best efforts is not nice! So, I run a Gibbs on the second rope.

The FA team had no sense of route-finding, as my final topo will show. There really is no "line" here, so the whole game with the SA is to stay as close to their route as possible (either right on it, or within 20 feet, so I can see everything), while taking the most sensible line through the bulges and ripples (something they did not do). If you're just going to drill your way up, then at least pick a sensible line! The FA team often just drilled their way out and over the largest bulges in the area, while going 10 feet to one side or the other would have cut the problem in half. It's like they had some thrill with going out over the widest parts of the ripples.

I'm NOT happy with what I'm doing here, but the SA can be nothing else. At least once I'm done, the thing will be repeatable by anybody that wants a fun clip-up route with a bit of A3 mixed in here and there. It's honestly just sad that the FA team forced something to go there at all. There's no "route" here, that's for sure!
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Jun 23, 2012 - 08:44pm PT
Those sawed off pegs are screwey.
This keeps getting weirder the higher you get.
Thanks for the report.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 28, 2012 - 05:26am PT
Hey Richard, I'd be interested to hear your conclusions now that the climb has been completed. Any chance of a TR in the near future?
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2012 - 07:33pm PT
Yes, it's been a project getting settled back in and picking up all the loose ends that developed during this ridiculous project.

I'll be updating the blog very soon, along with a pretty detailed TR.

The short answer is that it was a bashie ladder except for the top 180 feet, which had an A1/A2 crack system. I bypassed many bashies and retrofitted the whole route with nice "rivets" that should last decades. So, at this point, the route could be done quickly with a bunch of rivet loops and a fairly small rack (although there are some WIDE) and flared sections in places (up to 12"). Except for a couple of very short sections of A3, it's an A1/A2 route. The amount of drilling the FA team did has to be seen to be believed! I mean, even my many pictures all the way up the thing fail to do justice to a line of big holes that are drilled every 18 inches. These guys were "heroes" only at the anchors, where they often thought that two drilled bashies was an "anchor."

The only "danger" is that in many, many places you can't take even short falls without getting munched. I was scared at times even on A3 because of the constant potential landings (usually onto rock-embedded, aggregate ramps). That face is corrugated in a way that is really hard to describe. You do NOT want to have even one beak tip pull and drop you onto that stuff. Also, it's a fairly remote spot, and few hikers get out that far, so you'd be hanging there for a long time before even having the hope of some help. It would be a real pity to get crippled on an A2 section. LOL
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Aug 7, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
Hoipolloi,

You summed up climbing in the Fishers perfectly.

Lets see the pics! I have spent so much time scoping that tower...that line always looked cool. The only drawback is that it ends at the saddle.

If you want the same kind of climbing but harder, check out Weird Science on-the Kingfisher. Hardest aid climbing I have done there. Way harder than Beaking in Tongues or Worlds End.

F*#king LOVE that place. It has everything I want in climbing.

I WILL be back in a couple of weeks!

WOO F*#KING HOO!

Jeremy
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Aug 8, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
BUMP for Not So Soft pics!
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Aug 8, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
Dude.


Waiting.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 9, 2012 - 03:09am PT
Cool.

I'll keep an eye on this thread and the blog for pics then, grats on busting another hyperbolic route rating.
jeff_m

Social climber
700' up
Aug 10, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
Great thread and blog. (Sounds like you have the potential to start another CSI franchise: Climbing Scene Investigation.)

It turns out that they were also drilling custom holes, pounding wooden pegs into them, then sawing the pegs off flush and driving them when they were done, rendering them useless.

Seriously though, the truly disappointing aspect of all this is the premeditated planning with the intent to deceive. How many hours were spent thinking up the wooden dowel/peg tactic, practicing said tactic, bringing the saw, hiding the evidence all to report to the world (yes, I know it's a small world) that they did something of note? Seems like they gambled on no one ever wanting to SA; I guess they didn't plan on Richard calling their bluff.

Good job.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Aug 10, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
Remember when that same sh#t was on Sundevil? Is it still there?
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 14, 2012 - 06:10am PT
Come on men!

Give up s---ing your dicks (one each other, I mean; yourselves are not possible, too short).
How can you support Mr. Jensen?
You say Pelut's style is not Tower's style, but you support a dude who bolts a route? Rivets, bolts and nice belay chains shinning under the Utah sun? Yeah, now the whole world understands what Tower's climbing style is!

By the way, Pelut and Ester have opened a new route on Kingfisher and made the SA of Weird Science...

P.S: Use vaseline!
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 14, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
Hmmm...quite interesting info for your first post my friend.

I will be out there in a couple weeks and I will make sure to scope Weird Science through binoculars to see what they did to our route.

Given their horrible style of drilling, trenching, over-grading, lying and God only knows what else, I assume the worst.

Time will tell.


Jeremy Aslaksen
Albuquerque, NM
rocket scientist

Trad climber
Logan, UT
Sep 14, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny7dT0CpKZg
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Sep 14, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
Wow! Aid climbing is SIIICCKKK!!!!^^^^
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Sep 14, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
TRON!!!!

BWhaHWHAHAHAhahahahHAaH!!!!
Credit: mucci

Silly Spaniards.





Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 14, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
Effing gachupines effed up S America, effed up invading England, effed up
their country, and now they've effed up our country?
Professional Eff-ups!

Should have known from the get-go the route was bogus with a name like that!
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 14, 2012 - 03:30pm PT
http://desnivel.com/escalada-roca/david-palmada-pelut-y-ester-olle-abren-via-en-memoria-de-pau-escale-en-las-fisher-towers

I REALLY hope they didn't pull any of their known antics on our route.

That would be a shame.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Sep 14, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
Why do you have two usernames?

Madboiter and madbolter? Why not use just 1?



The FA's look like tools in that video.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Sep 14, 2012 - 03:42pm PT
In the vid on that page, he hits that beak about five hundred times, is that normal for sandstone climbing, Jeremy?
crunch

Social climber
CO
Sep 14, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
How can you support Mr. Jensen?

Hey, don't count me in. I ain't suckin' no one's dick.

Jensen chose to climb the Spaniard's route. Seem strange that, given what he had to say about it, he chose to continue and finish it. I'd have come right down, started up something worthy. Now there's two set of holes, in parallel, up parts of the Titan. Right over the trail, too, visible to tourists. This makes us all look bad. It's just this kind of ego-driven nonsense that gets the attention of land-managers. A pox on both houses, I say.

Here's Jensen, on the Titan:

I'm NOT happy with what I'm doing here, but the SA can be nothing else. At least once I'm done, the thing will be repeatable by anybody that wants a fun clip-up route with a bit of A3 mixed in here and there. It's honestly just sad that the FA team forced something to go there at all. There's no "route" here, that's for sure!

And here's Jensen, talking about his Winds of Change: "After doing the Sea, we did adopt the tactic of "enhancing" hooks so that we could run things out more."

So, umm, first ascent team drilling to "run things out more" is not the same as first ascent team drilling to "force something"?

Please explain.

That's what I'm talking about
That's what I'm talking about
Credit: crunch
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 14, 2012 - 03:54pm PT
Mark,

For Fisher's stuff sometimes...looked like he was just going to town though.

As we all know these guys are total f*#king hacks.

I am VERY interested in the state of our route Weird Science after their passage. It was/is a GREAT natural line that you can barely even see when you are on it.

I will check it out personally in a couple weeks and scope out the crux (1st) pitch and see what they did.

Jeremy
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 14, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
I agree Crusher.

If I saw what Jensen saw I would have IMMEDIATELY bailed and climbed something better and let that sh#t show erode away.

My $0.02.

madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
Been too busy to think lately. Ultimately I'll get the pics and final TR finished and posted.

For the moment I'll just say that had I (or somebody) not finished the route, the FA team would have howled that nobody could "judge the route" because no SA had been done. So, somebody had to see the thing through to see what all of it was really like. I kept hoping things would get better, but they never did. The route is a botch job all the way up. But it needed a full SA to even be able to report that and to leave the FA team with no way to dodge all of the facts.

Regarding "2 lines of holes," etc., well, there are "holes" and then there are holes. My holes are FAR apart and have metal in them that will last. The FA line of holes will go away over time. There's no natural line there, so if there's going to be a line of holes, at least it's as well done as possible. And it's not all holes on my ascent. I bypassed a LOT of their holes with natural placements and got my holes 2 to 3 times as far apart as they did theirs. I would guess that I drilled 1/3 as many as the FA team did. So, the route is much better now than what they left behind, and it can now be repeated without additional drilling. It's sustainable.

Regarding "visible from the trail," I just have to laugh at that.

It's true that no route should have gone there, imho. But a route did, and outlandish claims were made. There was one and only one way to fully know the real story. So, there it is.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Sep 14, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
It was/is a GREAT natural line that you can barely even see when you are on it.

That, really is the beauty of the best of the Fisher Tower aid climbing; to place a beak in a seam, straight off the belay, then stand up, place another, same seam. And this seam? You can't see any more than what's directly in front of you, because it's just a color change, a paler line with, maybe, a very slight depression, sliding its way up into who knows where. And you ride that seam, beak by beak, until you get to a point where nothing works. Uh oh. You're stuck. You probe around, reach side to side, down, up, all the time worrying that the beak you're standing on will blow, and then you reach out far to the side, so stretched you can't breathe, arms out at full extension, and tap, tap, and mysteriously a birdbeak sinks its way into an unseen crease. Yes! You step over, real slow and gentle, and stand up and off you go again.

Hours go by but you're so wrapped up in what you're doing, so hyper-aware of every crystal, every slight sound and every little nuance of the rock in front of you that you don't notice the time, the shifting shadows, hunger, heat, dry throat, sore feet, anything. You're working with the rock, probing its secrets.

Those pitches are rare, special. Not may of them around. Hope you route is still pretty much as you left it!

Shadow of the Kingfisher
Shadow of the Kingfisher
Credit: crunch
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 14, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
Well put Crusher.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Sep 14, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
had I (or somebody) not finished the route, the FA team would have howled that nobody could "judge the route" because no SA had been done.

Yeah, true that. Bit of a Catch 22.

You either bail once you understand how the route has been so grossly misrepresented, or you finish the route just so you can't be accused of bailing for the wrong reasons.

You never really know what's coming up until you reach it. You could bail, thinking you've done the botch-job crux only to discover, years later, that a genuinely hard, cool pitch lay up ahead.

What would I have done?

Hard to say. I'd be very, very reluctant to start drilling during a second ascent. That would seem poor style; I'd have a real hard time justifying that to myself. I might have borrowed my wife's astronomical telescope to really study the beast (that telescope's no stranger to the Fishers). I might, if sufficiently intrigued, have scurried up the Finger of Fate then rappelled the line to really probe around with hammer and knifeblade or two and see what was in store.

But that's a lot of work. I'm not that hungry these days. Probably I'd have simply bailed, gone elsewhere.

To be honest, there's no way I ever would have started. The whole "A6" hype and the embarrassing, horrendous Bear Ghrylls-meets-the-tug-toner video (I would have studied this frame by frame [the Spaniard's video, not the tug toner one], to learn as much as possible before starting--homework!) would have turned me right off.

Not many places more spectacular
Not many places more spectacular
Credit: crunch
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 14, 2012 - 05:40pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#239141
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 14, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#149846
rick d

climber
ol pueblo, az
Sep 14, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
this whole mess....

Fancy guys from spain with helmet cams,flashy clothes, and sponsorship are just ruining another desert tower. Old guys who don't know when to give up create another eyesore (dude, after pitch two we got the picture you should have come down and just called it bunk)

Jeremy and Crusher have shown me how much further desert aid can go- and I know it can go farther. All routes here are really too rare (planet wise) to let the world know "hi, I'm here, look at my ass". I have stumbled upon Bill Forrest's anchors, Fred Beckey's "bolt laddders", Todd Gordon's relics, Alby's tuna and chili cans, and seen and met weird people (and really weird things) with those who live every day in the 4 corners region.

In 10, 20, maybe 50 years people might go WTF, that bastard langmade, or Harvey, or gimpy, or gagner went up this shiat?

drink beer, eat well, and just casually say "yea the desert is a cool place to climb".
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 14, 2012 - 08:29pm PT
One of the dudes is a chick...just sayin...but well said.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 15, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
BUMP CUZ THIS SH#T MATTERS.
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 17, 2012 - 03:51am PT
I just wanna say it seems to me you are a very closed inbred group (this also happens on the other side of the pool anyway) and flirting with high inbreeding coefficieng brings mental weakness...
But don't worry Jeremy, Weird Science hasn't been disfigured with bolts and rivets as God Jensen did (respect is a word that we all know in Europe). Just for your information, the people attempting SA of Pelut's new route on Kingfisher will need more than 60 peckers for the 1rst pitch. But well, seeing the kind of aid climbing you practice and support in the Towers, perhaps instead of peckers you'll need just bolts.
I just wanna add that Pelut urgently wrote to Jensen's blog to contact him during his last summer stage in the Towers (everybody can see it in the blog) and strangely God Jensen didn't dare to answer (not ubiquity gift for Richy!). He knows why, but bolting a route and ignoring the authors of this route when they are there, say much about this superhero and all the exploits he claims have done...
Be well all of you and climb hard!
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Sep 17, 2012 - 04:25am PT
I just wanna say it seems to me you are a very closed inbred group

Yes, especially inbred!
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Sep 17, 2012 - 08:29am PT
Second cousins are so hot right now.
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Sep 17, 2012 - 09:10am PT
Oh, you should see my first cousins!

My great granddad married his first cousin.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 17, 2012 - 10:11am PT
Rivet Hanger, are you referring to the comments at the bottom of this page?

http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/?page_id=248
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 17, 2012 - 10:27am PT
Yes! From July 6th to August 15th, Mr. God Jensen doesn't answer, and from August 4th to 15th, Pelut is pressing for having a beer together and talk about the new bolted route because he was opening a new route in Kingfisher and making the SA of Weird Science...
Perhaps he had no internet access but, oh surprise, in August 7th, Mr. Jensen wrote a post in Supertopo!
And all these are objective facts!
Oh man, what's wrong with Richy?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 17, 2012 - 10:41am PT
Hmm. I see the posts through July where they had a good dialogue. There's a few posts from Pelut in August that Richard doesn't seem to have addressed yet.

Were I to hazard a guess, I suspect he legitimately did not see Pelut's later posts on his blog - I didn't see much activity from him through most or all of August. By the sound of it he had a ton of stuff going on during the time that Pelut put up those posts.

I believe that when he has a look at what Pelut had to say, he'll have a lengthy response up shortly thereafter - it's not really congruent with his style to dodge this sort of thing. Maybe try emailing him, just in case?
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 17, 2012 - 11:18am PT
Well, since my point of view it's more congruent with Jensen's style saying "goofballs" to the FA team, bolting a route he had not opened, claiming the topo is completely useless and ignoring the First Ascenders meeting request to talk about everything in the web page he has created "ex profeso" to make known his epic SA... Ego problems?
But perhaps, the saddest thing is seeing the Fisher Towers aid climbing communtity applauding his truth and ridiculing the FA team just because they are from Catalonia (it's not exactly Spain!). Beyer's route name in Kingfisher was Death of American Democracy, wasn't it?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 17, 2012 - 11:30am PT
Well, the only thing I know for sure is that I know nothing.

Will watch this thread with great interest. But for now, off to bed. See you in 8.
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 17, 2012 - 11:36am PT
+1 Da_Dweeb! Good night!
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Sep 17, 2012 - 11:41am PT
Rivet Hanger, boy you got a hard on for the wooden peg using then sawing off, copperhead trenching Euro couple. You in to that stuff huh? Kinky.
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 17, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
Sorry man, my English level does not include slang...
All I can say about wood and copper is what Pelut says in Jensen's web page: they are used together, a thing that seems scary for Jensen, who decided to bolt the route! You support that?
And in addition, do you thing the FA team lifted a handsaw chain up there and used it while hanging of a line of coppers or any other precarious pieces? Come on!
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Sep 17, 2012 - 12:12pm PT
"All I have to say in response is that you can’t drill a line of bashies for 1000 feet and call that a route. You drilled bashies into blank rock when you should have used “mini-bolts” for all of those blank placements (most of them!). You drilled for almost every placement. There was no natural line here. You just manufactured a route where there was no line to follow. And the rating is absurd, totally absurd."

Richard Jensen in response to the First Ascentionist


Now, why Jensen continued the route? maybe he is crazy!
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 17, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
When you've not opened the route, you can say that you don't like the style, that you'd have opened in another way, but at least in Europe, you cannot modify the route (well, obviously you can, but everybody will think you are a motherfu--er and nobody will support you). And I think that everybody can understand that is not same to hang on a line of these pieces http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/?attachment_id=205 that in a line of rivets like this! http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/?attachment_id=210
If you practice aid climbing you know what I mean.
In my opinion, bolting and destroying the route portraits the psychology of this dude...
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 17, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
Hi Rivet Hanger.

My name is Jeremy Aslaksen.

What's your name?
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 17, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
Hi Jeremy, my name is Pere Larocalla!
Very interested on your coming trip to the Towers. Take pictures of the destruction Jensen did on Titan (shinning bolts and belay chains, you know...). You could contact Pelut and attemp his new route by the way...
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Sep 17, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
You should contact Pelut and tell him he is a hack.

Kalen Glenn
rick d

climber
ol pueblo, az
Sep 17, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
a hole, is a hole, is a hole. I have in the past drilled holes for a hook (two), for copper heads (10), and for rivets. I know now 1/2 of those placements could have been done without the bit touching the stone which years later would make me happier, I feel I cheated like mastrae

how many holes per pitch filled or not on look out danger and the new route?

Also, little comment about jeremy's lead on weird science from the second ascent team- why?

If it is so cool you need to adopt tha merican rating system of 5.9 A.2+ or the NTB,YDFS grades.
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
Long post warning!

I really, really don't have time for this. So, I'll try to "sum up" in this one post. I've put the annotated original topo on my blog today. I've also (finally) put up my detailed topo of the route. I'm putting links here rather than bringing in the actual images, because they are quite large.

Annotated original topo: http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/danger_topo_annotated.jpg

My finalized topo: http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/danger_topo_mine.jpg

Beyond this, I don't have much to say. I hope to find more time to "finish off" the blog with more pics as soon as possible. But at present I just don't have the time.

So, here goes....

You never really know what's coming up until you reach it. You could bail, thinking you've done the botch-job crux only to discover, years later, that a genuinely hard, cool pitch lay up ahead.

Yeah, that's exactly right, and that was indeed the struggle going through my mind the whole way. And the top two pitches are indeed a crack system. Had more of the route been "natural," we could instead be debating the "drilling ratios" or some such thing. But, aside from the top two pitches, the FA team put drill to "stone" on virtually every placement.

What would I have done?

I ask myself the same thing. Knowing what I now know, I would not have even started the route. Knowing what I now know, I probably would not have continued. But, I couldn't know then what I know now. And only a complete SA could really tell the whole story.

Hard to say. I'd be very, very reluctant to start drilling during a second ascent. That would seem poor style; I'd have a real hard time justifying that to myself. I might have borrowed my wife's astronomical telescope to really study the beast (that telescope's no stranger to the Fishers). I might, if sufficiently intrigued, have scurried up the Finger of Fate then rappelled the line to really probe around with hammer and knifeblade or two and see what was in store.

All good ideas. I actually employed the "scope" idea. I spent hours with a high-powered scope and with an 18mp camera with long lens. I made a detailed strip map of high-res pics and studied it carefully, trying to match up what the FA team's topo shows with features on the strip map. Part of why I call the original topo "useless" is that they show precious little in the way of "features," and vertical lines drawn on a topo do not correlate with cracks or even with the direction they went. With the topo and a strip-map, you see virtually no correlation!

The biggest problem with knowing anything from the ground is that you can scope out what looks to be a crack, only to get there and find that it is nothing but a bottomed ripple with no crack at all. Even scoping at different times of the day to see the "cracks" in different shading does not let you know if there is a pecker seam there or nothing. There is literally no way to tell what you're going to get until it's right in your face. And the wall is so corrugated that you often cannot see even 100 feet above you with any reliability. The net effect is that you just can't know what's "up there" until you get up there. And "cracks" on that side of the Titan apparently typically are not. "Features" are not what you hope, and no scope or strip map is going to reveal that.

Rapping the route would have left the FA team the option of claiming (as they are even now trying to float): "Well, you didn't STAND on our placements. Bottom line is that until you STAND on everything we did, you can't know how to rate the route. Just looking at the route from the security of rappel does not tell you the story." On and on. And I fully expected a CLIMB! So, it literally didn't occur to me to bail and rap the route. I'm a "ground up" guy, and I just don't think in "rap the route" terms.

Rapping the route would also be of less value than you might think. The thing hangs with mud, and the features are tiny and fragile. To know that a potential placement would work, you'd have to try it. And you'd often have to clear away mud to even "see" what to try. In short, the "rap" of the route would amount to a LOT of very concerted effort to see if a "route" even COULD go through there. And at that point some would be upset that I "hacked" the "rock" during the rap just to see what would go. This stuff is NOTHING like El Cap granite!

Finally, from the ground, the first pitch looks pretty fearsome. My close friends and family will attest to the fact that I did not take the A6+ rating as "pure hype" or anything like that. I mean, I was pretty sure that the fact the FA team based their rating on the fabled "A6" of Intifada meant that they were very confused about actual American ratings. But I expected A5, which on that "rock" is plenty! I went up there believing it would be a hard route, and I was prepared to die on it. Now, in retrospect, that sounds ridiculously grandiose. But I didn't have retrospect at that time. I expected the route to be hard, but I also expected to significantly down-rate it. I mean, A6+? I didn't expect to find THAT. But, bottom line is that all the way up I kept waiting for "the other shoe to drop," and I had to get ALL the way up to find out that there was no "other shoe."

At this point, in retrospect, it's easy to say that I should not have kept going. That's certainly a reasonable perspective, and I won't argue against it. As I said, I'm not happy with what I had to do to get all the way up it. I just kept thinking, "Surely they didn't drill ALL the way up! Surely there's more to this route than JUST a line of holes!" But, the fact is that it's basically a line of holes. No way to know that until getting ALL the way up.

So, in one sense I'm sorry for all the drilling. In another sense, in order to know the truth, either you had to go up there with a lumberyard or with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of euro-bashies... neither of which you're going to know in advance. Or, you had to retro-fit the route, which is what I did.

In America we simply don't drill wooden pegs and call it good. The fact remains that what I left behind is repeatable (for anybody that would... gag... care to), and I did it with about 1/3 the number of holes of the FA team. A hole IS a hole! All the debate after that concerns what you put IN the hole. What I put in the holes makes sense and will last. What the FA team put in the holes (apparently) requires you to bring up a lumberyard for each ascent, and it's not sustainable on that "rock." The FA team drilled hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of holes (more than 50 in just their first pitch). What I did was retro-fit the route. I shouldn't apologize for there being a route there in the first place.

IMHO no route should have been put there in the first place. And, had I known then what I know now, I would have left it alone to fade into obscurity and be covered by mud. But that would have left the FA team the basis to keep hyping the route as "the hardest aid climb in the world." And with no SA, there was no debunking the claims. The SA required retro-fitting. And I felt the need to go ALL the way up to fully KNOW the WHOLE story. And I would have "always wondered" had I bailed at any point. Again, I'm not happy with what needed to be done to KNOW the WHOLE story. And there's NO "glory" to me for being the one to discover the whole story.

I don't get paid to climb, and I get no "glory" for this SA. What was in it for me? In retrospect, nothing but the experience of "gearing up" for a route like that (mentally and physically). I went up there honestly prepared to die (even A4 in the Fishers is the real deal). But it was nothing but a slog. Just a giant waste of my resources.

So, it's easy now, in retrospect, to question my retro-fitting. I won't debate it beyond what I've just said. I made a choice, and it's easy to argue that it was a bad choice. I won't argue it beyond what I've just said. Everything is easy to "parse out" in retrospect. The route IS basically a bolt ladder. At least MY bolt ladder is an honest one (and with FAR fewer holes than the FA).

**
Now to the "Rivet hanger" comments....

Pelut's new route on Kingfisher will need more than 60 peckers for the 1rst pitch.

LOL.... Well, probably only if you plant them 18-inches apart, which seems to be the limit of Palut's reach, as seen on "Look Out...."

perhaps instead of peckers you'll need just bolts

LOL... Well, only if he trenched and drilled, as seen on "Look Out...." He certainly used a tiny fraction of the peckers he COULD have on "Look Out...." I planted good peckers many, many times IN his trenches (trenched into usable seams) and to easily bypass many of his drilled bashies! Of course, I can reach almost six feet between placements on that angle of rock, while Pelut seemed limited to no more than about 2 feet, with 18-inches between placements being most common.

a thing that seems scary for Jensen

You're joking. Right?

I just wanna add that Pelut urgently wrote to Jensen's blog to contact him during his last summer stage in the Towers (everybody can see it in the blog) and strangely God Jensen didn't dare to answer (not ubiquity gift for Richy!). He knows why, but bolting a route and ignoring the authors of this route when they are there, say much about this superhero and all the exploits he claims have done...

"God Jensen?" Wow... get over yourself.

Pelut posted a few times, never "urgently," and I quickly responded. The site was supposed to email me when comments came in, and it had been doing that. I don't know why in August it stopped, but I didn't get notified of any incoming comments in August. This thread is the first I've known of Pelut's comments in August. And I just got on and responded to them.

It's of note that comments in August (a MONTH after the SA was completed) would have been no help. All Pelut had to say in those August comments was sarcasm about what a glory-hound I am. And even your comments about my "superhero" status are quite laughable. If I have any reputation as a climber, to my knowledge "superhero" is not a feature of it. LOL

You seem to take umbrage at me saying anything at all about my past climbs. Unlike Pelut, I don't make a living climbing, nor does my "life" revolve around it at all. So, it would be a legitimate question in the international climbing community: "Who is this guy who thinks he has the stones to even attempt 'the hardest aid climb in the world'? Is he even qualified to judge such a route? CAN he even climb it without bringing it down to his level?" I've said a bit about that on the blog simply to answer such questions. I have some acquaintance with routes that have been called hard, including, ironically, Intifada. That does not make me a "superhero." All it makes me is qualified to evaluate what Pelut did on "Look Out...." And, if anything, my retro-fit of the route UPGRADES it rather than brings it down. It started out as far "down" as it could be.

I did not at ANY point "ignore the authors." I responded quickly even while on the route. And my failure to respond in August just denotes the FACT of how busy I've been and how little I've even thought about the SA since completing it. So, if you want to debate "facts" about my responsiveness, there they are. I haven't been "following" this thread or even my own blog since about early July. The fact that "the authors" of the route and some of their fanboys are now all amped up about my debunking of their hype does not put upon me corresponding pressure to respond with equal "urgency."

Well, since my point of view it's more congruent with Jensen's style saying "goofballs" to the FA team, bolting a route he had not opened, claiming the topo is completely useless and ignoring the First Ascenders meeting request to talk about everything in the web page he has created "ex profeso" to make known his epic SA... Ego problems?
But perhaps, the saddest thing is seeing the Fisher Towers aid climbing communtity applauding his truth and ridiculing the FA team just because they are from Catalonia (it's not exactly Spain!). Beyer's route name in Kingfisher was Death of American Democracy, wasn't it?

Perhaps "goofballs" was a bit harsh. That was a "heat of the moment" response resulting from staring at the biggest BOTCH JOB in climbing history. I mean, WHO ELSE in climbing history has literally drilled hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of holes up a fairly short tower (as "big walls" go) and then called it "the hardest aid climb in the world?" Pelut says (I quote): "The A6+ is not a proposal. I have the experience of Intifada, which is A6." Uhhh... Intifada was NEVER A6, and had Pelut bothered to get in touch with even a BIT of American climbing history, he would have quickly found out that Intifada was NO STANDARD by which to judge either ratings or style! So, yes, facing an EPIC BOTCH, I did employ a pejorative term. To do over again, I would have tried to calm down a bit first. But I only barely "back off" on this point, because what Pelut did on the Titan was GOOFY and a BOTCH.

And, technically, I did not "bolt a route I had not opened." I retro-fitted an ALREADY TOTALLY DRILLED "route!" And my retro-fitting employed about 1/3 the number of holes employed by the FA team. The FA team drilled a hole-ladder virtually bottom to top, and then hyped their style by proudly stating: "Only 33 mini bolts used for progression on pitches." What a joke! Saying "only 33 mini bolts" and emphasizing on the topo "the wall" as if it was THE blank section paints a TOTALLY different picture from what is really there! It's almost ALL blank. The "features" are almost all bottomed, so Pelut had to trench even his heads. And have I mentioned that there are hundreds and hundreds of BIG, DEEP holes drilled into blank stone? Why fill most of these holes with bashies and wooden pegs instead of a bolt? There is ONLY one reason: TO be able to make the hyped claims about the style of the route.

Pelut treats these countless, massive holes as though they are somehow "legitimate," while "mini bolts" are a problem that must be minimized! And YOU treat these placements as though they are somehow "precarious" and thereby legitimate climbing! They are neither precarious nor legitimate! Many of his bashies could not even be jerked out of the holes... that's how "precarious" they were! And the ones he could jerk out blew out the edges of the holes in most cases, leaving for any SA team holes that were not close to as good as what he used, and leaving useless flairs in MANY cases! You call THAT legitimate??? You call THAT even "climbing?"

Forgive me for my heat, but I'm outraged! That is not even CLIMBING! It was not "hard," and it left a "route" that was not even repeatable without a lot of additional drilling! Facing these blown-out flairs and blown-out trenches, what's the SA team supposed to do? Drill the holes deeper? "Sharpen up" the edges again? It's ALL drilling! The whole "route" is purely manufactured! It's ABOUT drilling! So, don't bash me for "bolting a route I had not opened." The state in which the FA team left the "route" demanded that the SA would do much more drilling. I was NOT going to just further drill out those ridiculous bashie holes. And I was NOT going to legitimize drilled-bashie anchors! I left an HONEST route, stripped of ALL the hype. The "route" IS and only EVER WAS a BOLT LADDER.

Repeat after me until you understand it: A hole is a hole is a hole is a hole is a hole. A trench is a hole is a hole is a hole is a hole. A drilled bashie is a hole is a hole is a hole. A drilled wooden peg is a hole is a hole is a hole is a hole. When you can grasp this principle, you will have grasped what we Americans think about aid climbing and aid climbing ratings in America. Use the FEATURES of the ROCK as much as possible, and CALL a hole a "hole" when you report what you did. DON'T drill for virtually EVERY placement and then CLAIM: "Only 33 mini bolts used...."

"Ego problems?" I'm stumped. WHAT ego-stroking could I possibly get from this botch??? The FA was a botch. The SA was nothing but a retro-fitting of a botch. There's nothing "worthy" in EITHER ascent! The ONLY reason I pushed the SA through was to eliminate ANY possibility of misjudging the route. I'm not proud of the SA. I just feel like somebody needed to do it. And, unlike Pelut, I don't get paid to climb. I have no "ego" nor financial stake in this game! I am not motivated by my "career" to keep putting up "bad-ass" climbs with "bad-ass" ratings in order to further my "career." Climbing is a very different thing for me than it (apparently) is for Pelut. So, point your "ego" finger in some other direction.

And, if you'll take note, I have never bashed on the FA team "just because they are from Catalonia" (let's not get into the technicalities of whether Catalonia is "not exactly Spain"). I "bashed" on the FA team because they drilled a bashie ladder up the Titan and then called it "the hardest aid climb in the world." To be really crisp and clear about this, I'm not even "bashing" on Esther, because I'm guessing that she didn't lead a pitch. As basically a "belay slave" she had little to do with the style of the leads. Pelut is the one responsible for the pitches and the hype surrounding the route. And Pelut's reputation is what's on the line here. Whatever he did before, and whatever he does after, the FACT remains that Pelut drilled a bashie/peg ladder up the Titan and hyped it as the hardest thing in the world. And THAT is what he has to account for in this context.

I'm happy that the climbing community "applauds truth." And it's not "my truth." It's THE truth. We want to know the truth, and I reported the truth. That truth debunks Pelut's hype about the route, and it is no "ridicule" to simply report the truth, which is all I've done.

Yes! From July 6th to August 15th, Mr. God Jensen doesn't answer, and from August 4th to 15th, Pelut is pressing for having a beer together and talk about the new bolted route because he was opening a new route in Kingfisher and making the SA of Weird Science...
Perhaps he had no internet access but, oh surprise, in August 7th, Mr. Jensen wrote a post in Supertopo!
And all these are objective facts!
Oh man, what's wrong with Richy?

Again, I did answer in June and July. And Pelut was not pressing for a meeting or anything like that. I was ON the thing until early July, btw; and his August comments on the blog contributed NOTHING to the ascent. Having read them, I see nothing that demanded my response. His comments appear to be so sarcastic that he could not have seriously believed that they "urgently" needed a response.

"What's wrong with Richy" is that he's unhappy with being forced to retro-fit an ENTIRE route just to find out the truth of it! I expected a CLIMB, and there was no CLIMB there.

So, let me end this with as much clarity as I can muster....

What Pelut SHOULD have done, to be totally honest about his tactics, was to build a 1000-foot high wooden ladder, lean it up against the Titan, and then step back proudly to say: "Look at what I have done! Oh, and it's really, really hard. It's the hardest thing EVER done! It is SO much harder than even your hardest, Intifada, that no existing rating can contain my awesomeness. MY ladder needs a whole new rating to describe how 'precarious' it is to stand on the (often precarious) rungs of my wooden ladder. True, my ladder really doesn't even TOUCH the rock, except at the top. I really don't USE the ROCK at all. It's really just a big wooden ladder! But it's a HARD wooden ladder, and it IS 'on' the Titan because it's leaning against it."

Something like that would have at least been HONEST! It's not "climbing," but at least it's honest.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Sep 17, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
SIZZLE!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 17, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
Madbolter, tell us what you relly think! HaHaHa! Nicely done sir!
Candid, balanced, and well written - you're on the wrong website.
OK, and slightly pejorative. ;-)
rick d

climber
ol pueblo, az
Sep 17, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
This all goes back to drilling.

RJ,there are a lot of holes on your topo which does not follow the original line in the middle.

To all, When anyone of you goes up on Time Machine (Glacier Point-9 o'clock wall) without a bolt kit and without heads and repeats it, then you might know what hard aid climbing is. Bob S. wanted a route that people could not question style thus he stepped out to do something (in 1984) without a chisel or a drill. Beyer's resume is badly tarnished from Intifada and some other escapades, but Shoenard's remains intact.

no chisel, no bolt kit.

ready, set, go.
chill

climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
Sep 17, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
Wow! This is going to be "Wings of Steel II, The Return of The Sh*tters".
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Sep 17, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
Rivet Hanger,
Rebutal?
next witness?

I say it will go free at 5.20+++,
not me though.

Gagner

climber
Boulder
Sep 17, 2012 - 10:15pm PT
This makes me sick to my stomach.

The Fisher Towers are a fragile place - one could legitimately argue that all climbing alters the stone/mud. I've certainly done my part over the years. But, drilling holes, whether for rivets, bolts, heads, bashies, or dowels - is still drilling a hole, and should be documented as such.

Here are a few comments -

1. What was the intent of using wood dowels, and then breaking them off? If this is true, then the route wasn't done in a sustainable, or repeatable manner. If this is not true then will someone please bear some light on this. I'm really curious about this practice because, while I know wood dowels have been used over the years, why would someone break them off, or saw them off, so they are unusable but future parties.
2. I have on several occasions over the years started a new route, only to discover that what I was gunning for was unusable - I bailed, not satisfied or willing to drill massive ladders. Jeremy and I bailed off a new route on the back side of the Oracle earlier this year when the seam we were gunning for on the 2nd pitch turned out to be blank.
3. To assert that the uproar here has to do with where someone hails from is silly. Great new routes, put up in good style are welcome by anyone, from anywhere.
4. As has been said up-thread, a hole is a hole is a hole. I rarely comment on rumor and speculation, but I've looked at Richard's photos, which seems to tell a story of a lot of holes, for pitches on end, and then the holes in some instances were destroyed and made unusable so a repeat ascent would be unrealistic. If this assessment is wrong, please tell a different story.
5. The seeming lack of honesty is sad. How could a ladder of holes really seriously be considered A6+, or A3 for that matter.? Why only state rivet holes, but not other major holes where the drill was put to rock? Climbing has always been a "sport" guided by passion and honesty. I believe this to be true no matter what side of the pond you are on.

As I said at the beginning - this makes me sick, and sad. There is a finite amount of rock. Let's be respectful and honest about our routes.

Paul
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 17, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
Hey, yeah! If a picture is worth a thousand words, ten or so could stand in for Richard's next post...
crunch

Social climber
CO
Sep 18, 2012 - 12:59am PT

Hey Rivet dude, or Pullet, or Esther, can you please post some photographs of the equipment (gear) wassa right word, doohickies, thingumies; the copper and wood and lead (plomo, cobre...., devices, that were used on Danger.....fotografía!!!!

We're struggling here to understand exactly what you have done.

It it is alleged (presunto) by Jensen that you used a drill 18 inches times 900 feet, about 600 times.That would be seiscientos, comprendez? Yes? No?

Jensen, completamente loco, has drilled even more, or so he says. About 1/3 more, for a grand total of about 800 holes. OCHO CIEN. Saltando Jesús en la cruzar!

You all should be taken out and shot (pena de muerte, pronto). No hay excepciones.....

I mean, ¿qué coño

muy brillante
muy brillante
Credit: crunch

Mi aerodeslizador es ful de anguilas......grrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!



Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Sep 18, 2012 - 01:20am PT
Mi aerodeslizador es ful de anguilas......grrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!

Which is definitely not the way to climb desert towers. Lampreys are just too squishy to provide reliable protection no matter how hard you hammer them into the holes you've drilled.
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2012 - 02:59am PT
It it is alleged (presunto) by Jensen that you used a drill 18 inches times 900 feet

No, that's a bit much. I wouldn't say that the average was 18 inches. The average was probably more like 28.33538 inches. Pelut got as much as 3-feet between holes at times (rarely, even 4). And it's probably not 900 feet either. Probably more like 700, taking the top two pitches and the odd natural sections into account. That revised combination of numbers knocks literally hundreds of holes off of the estimate. So, probably "taken out back and shot" is a just a wee bit harsh. Maybe just taken out back and have a lamprey or two attached for a few hours, or something like that. Let the eels have their revenge.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 18, 2012 - 04:06am PT
And perhaps submit a report to the Ministry of Silly Rock Climbing...
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 18, 2012 - 09:33am PT
This thread pretty much puts the nail in the coffin for any desire I once had to climb hard aid.





The terms mountains out of molehills arises, oddly enough. I understand some people really love it (bless 'em for it), and the Fishers is a fragile place and any kind of impact should be looked at.


But seriously, this is rock climbing????
Do you guys know there are Stadiums that will pay you hundreds of dollars an hour to basically nail the same sh#t, only on Steel framing instead of mud????




And to think of how much sh#t Boulderers get on this forum... lol.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 18, 2012 - 11:27am PT
Go slut it up elsewhere dude.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 18, 2012 - 11:29am PT
GDavis, maybe that was a parody? ;-)
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 18, 2012 - 11:39am PT
He's been hawking around at a few threads, actually I have nothing wrong with what he is doing, just saw an opportunity to make a joke, lol.

I also don't find any fault with hard aid, again... an opportunity to make fun of something came up. Like I can pass those!
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 18, 2012 - 11:48am PT
Hey Palut...or your handlers/sub-men,

I would love to see a topo of your new route on the Kingfisher. Please post one complete with the location of the route, holes per pitch (and I mean ALL holes...I will have my telescope so I will be able to see them anyway...might as well tell the truth this time), pitch lengths, and a complete rack list (and I mean complete...wooden wedges should be included). I will be out there soon to check it out so transparency in your actions will be greatly appreciated.

Also, I would like to know how many holes (if any) were added to Weird Science on the second ascent (again, I will be able to see...).

Thank you.


Jeremy Aslaksen
ABQ, NM

Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 18, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
Topo and full disclosure bump.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 18, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
Sorry Jer, they went over to mountainproject.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Sep 18, 2012 - 05:33pm PT
well i guess the desert has its "valley atmosphere" too..
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 18, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
Aye? I'd be interested in hearing what you mean, Ron.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Sep 18, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
Uhhhh just the usual arguments of whom did what/where/when/how/why etc..Kinda de-javu .
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 18, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
Oh, I see. Thank you.
rick d

climber
ol pueblo, az
Sep 18, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
topo request (bump)
crunch

Social climber
CO
Sep 18, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
[quote]The average was probably more like 28.33538 inches. Pelut got as much as 3-feet between holes at times (rarely, even 4). And it's probably not 900 feet either. Probably more like 700, taking the top two pitches and the odd natural sections into account. That revised combination of numbers knocks literally hundreds of holes off of the estimate. [/quote

madbolter1, that's a very polite response to last night's whiskey-fueled rant. Thanks.

Using your revised estimate, with 700 feet of drilled placements times 30 inches per, there are about 280 drilled placements. That's a staggering number.

To which you added one-third more, say, 90? For a grand total of 370 drilled placements winding their way up the side of the Titan.

It's not clear whether you repeated their route, failed on their route, created your own route. Perhaps all three. It's a mess. If your allegations about the first ascent methods are true, the Catalonians created a mediocre, badly done, bolt-ladder aid route then brazenly lied about what they did. Or, at best, are utterly clueless about aid climbing. Grim accusations, but seemingly supported by the photos you've posted and review of the video they produced.

Placing up to 90 new bolts on a second ascent in the Fisher Towers is also unprecedented; appalling on the face of it. But maybe to be upset at this is to blame the messenger. I dunno.

At this point, Pelut is surely aware of these claims. It would be great to hear from him to clarify what they did. Or think they did. Pelut?

Some of really care about these crumbly towers, it's sad to read this stuff.

This deserves repeating:
A hole is a hole is a hole is a hole is a hole. A trench is a hole is a hole is a hole is a hole. A drilled bashie is a hole is a hole is a hole. A drilled wooden peg is a hole is a hole is a hole is a hole. When you can grasp this principle, you will have grasped what we Americans think about aid climbing and aid climbing ratings in America. Use the FEATURES of the ROCK as much as possible, and CALL a hole a "hole" when you report what you did. DON'T drill for virtually EVERY placement and then CLAIM: "Only 33 mini bolts used...."

crunch
Steve Bartlett
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
NP, Steve. God knows, as do many others on the Taco, that I've had my share of rants; and I can't even blame whiskey. lol

Yeah, based upon my "restocking" trips during the weeks, I'm guessing that 90 holes is about right for my retro-fit. And I certainly understand your concern. I do, of course, think that we shouldn't kill the messenger. The "route" left by the FA team was unrepeatable without TONS of additional drilling... either to make usable their holes (which I just couldn't bring myself to "validate" in that way, or by drilling new holes.

Regarding whether or not I did a "new route," I would say this. Except for about 60 feet of their seventh pitch (my fifth), I was either exactly on their route or within spitting distance of it. My goal was to keep their route under constant and very close scrutiny, while working a better "line" through the continual corrugations of the wall.

This "flexibility" meant that I made use of many small (but actually usable) features for a placement or two, instead of following the FA team into oblivion... for example into a totally bottomed "seam, like on their fourth pitch, in which they just trenched heads and drilled straight-in bashies for fifty feet.

This tactic also enabled me to work through the thin points of overhangs instead of (apparently) intentionally just drilling out the thickest points (with correspondingly more holes)! So, except for their seventh pitch, my "variation" meanders all over their route (often right on it), always within no more than about 20 feet of their "line." By so doing the route makes MUCH more sense and is done with much less drilling! A few years of natural processes will largely or completely cover most/all of their holes, effectively erasing most of their ridiculousness.

For that 60 feet I didn't lay eyes on, they went way right around a corner (drilling all the way there) and then came back left 60 feet higher (where drilled holes reappeared). That intervening section is part of their "A5R" pitch, and from above I could see down part of it that I couldn't see from the side. ALL drilled bashie holes. And what I found is that their "A5" and above was ALWAYS just drilled bashies. And, believe me, they were sewing it up... I guess to mitigate the "risk" of zipper.

Again, I could have just bailed, and, again, maybe I should have. That's an open question that will always haunt me. But I keep coming back to the simple fact that the only way to know the whole story was to do the whole route. And that produced a constant tension regarding HOW to get up the damned thing!

I'll say one more thing. At times the "best" choice was to just use one of their existing trenches. Where I did this, I planted nice, stainless-cabled heads and left them in place; they are solid. That "rock" simply won't sustain the cycle of trenching, jerking, re-trenching, jerking, etc. So, I ended that cycle wherever I used one of their trenches. My WHOLE goal on the retro-fit was to ELIMINATE the need for ANY future party to drill, chisel, or re-trench to get up the thing.

Regarding my tongue-in-cheek response to the hole-estimate of their route, I will say that there are hundreds and hundreds of holes. HOW many is open. I quit counting early on, as it was just ridiculous. 300 holes (or perhaps even more) is certainly not out of the question. As I say, there were over 50 in the first pitch alone (every 18 to 24 inches!).

Again, I am very torn about what I had to do to find out the whole story. But, I didn't put the POS up, what I left behind is MUCH better by every metric, and at least we now do know the real and complete story. Pelut has no wiggle-room and no "easy exit" via ANY argument at this point. During the ascent, I reached the point where that became the primary issue to me.

I agree that my charges are "grim." I've been (unjustifiably) on the receiving end of such charges myself, so I know the gravity of it. But the facts are what they are, and I did as careful and thorough a job of documenting the mess as I could, while trying to retro-fit the mess as best I could. There's no "win" to be had with the SA, and I'm not proud of the SA. But the "route" was an epic botch, arguably the worst in climbing history, and I did the best I could with what I had to work with.

Thanks, Steve, and all the best to you,
Richard Jensen
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 19, 2012 - 07:08am PT
Bumping - I'm curious as to what thoughts or response Pelut and crew and/or Rivet Hanger have regarding the last few days worth of posts.
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 19, 2012 - 11:46am PT
Ok Richy, it's obvious that you had to ripe the route by bolting it and putting belay chains there where didn't exist! I just thank God (not endeed, I do not believe in God, but it's just a way of expression) that Ammon and Kait didn't do the same to your controversial Wings of Steel (just A3+ if I'm not wrong, am I?)...
To Jeremy: Sorry, I'm not Pelut's messenger. If you need his email to ask him for a topo (I think he'd be pleased to give it to you), I suggest you to write on Desnivel magazine forum or ask it to Richy... Don't be lazy, internet is a big information provider, give up this typical American navel-gazing attitude. Anyway, I'll be very pleased to see photos of both Titan an Kingfisher routes after your coming trip, specially the shinning bolts and bomb-proof belay chains...
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 19, 2012 - 11:51am PT
Ok Richy, it's obvious that you had to ripe the route by bolting it and putting belay chains there where didn't exist! I just thank God (not endeed, I do not believe in God, but it's just a way of expression) that Ammon and Kait didn't do the same to your controversial Wings of Steel (just A3+ if I'm not wrong, am I?)...

Ahh. I think I'm starting to see what the larger issue is here.

Recommendation: Set Tearjectory to QQ more.
Recommendation: Set Tearjectory to QQ more.
Credit: Lauren Faust
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 19, 2012 - 11:54am PT
I don't think so, Titan can't feel shame...
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 19, 2012 - 11:57am PT
Rivet, you're not really addressing any of the points Madbolter is making. Go back, have a look at his post, and see if you can come up with a response that's something more than just a sad attempt at an Ad Hominem.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 19, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
Oh shi# dweeb not the ponies again!

Rivet hanger, all you keep saying is that he added bolts. Are you going to reply to his comments about all the holes pelut drillied? What a botch job!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 19, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
I want to get some of that de-javu coffee.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 19, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
This thread is the Supertopo equivalent of that VH1 show "I love the 80's!"

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 19, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
How come nobody is giving them props for being green and all with the wooden pegs?
Now all ya gotta do is take yer brace and bit along to auger out the pegs!
SWEET!
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 19, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
No, too boring.
I think his position is really clear and mine, too...
I'm not Pelut's voice, he's grown-up enough (altough he can't English), but if bolting a previous route is ethic for you and justifies the destruction of bashie's line, everything is clear.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 19, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
Rivet Hanger,

What you don't get is that his line of drilled/trenched placements is not a line nor a climb.

It's a f*#king travesty and he should be f*#king ashamed to call himself a climber.

Emails have been sent to his sponsors.


Jeremy Aslaksen
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 19, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
Well done, Jeremy! The first interesting thing you do. Come on, attemp the SA of the new route on Kingfisher, create a new web side and tell the world. And if you must drill more than the original route, don't worry at all, the whole USA will support you, dude!
"It's a f*#king travesty and he should be f*#king ashamed to call himself a climber."
I agree, he has a really bad climbing curriculum...
Gagner

climber
Boulder
Sep 19, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
Pere Larocalla (Rivet Hanger) -

Lots of passionate name calling going on here, which is typical for the internet. You keep bringing the topic of the SA up. Let's set the SA aside for a moment - I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the style. What I, and others, are trying to understand is the following:

1. How could the SA be done without drilling if the methods used on the FA were unsustainable, and seemingly trying to obfuscate what was really done - wooden dowels broken off, bashie holes that were destroyed?
2. What was the intent of the FA team in trying to say they had established the hardest aid climb in the world when in fact any rational person would not think that a ladder of holes, no matter what filled them, could be considered anything more than scary - certainly not hard.
3. Why lie about the amount of drilling done - was the expectation really that no one would go up to see for themselves? I believe in all areas it is common tactic to identify all holes drilled - look at any of the topos for my routes and I clearly call out every hole on lead, and where the drill touched rock.

Are the comments in this thread yours, or are they coming from Pelut?

Let's have a rational discussion and some real answers to the questions that have been asked versus the ongoing name calling.

Paul
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Sep 19, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
Hey Jeremy, at the risk of sounding like a typical American navel gazer, who are homeboys sponsors? Id be happy to write them and let them know how I and other locals feel about this.

I don't think these guys are going to answer any of the pertinent questions because there is no excuse for what they did. All a climbers got is his credibility and these guys have lost theirs.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 19, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
Larry,

As far as I know just Totem.

http://www.totemcams.com/blog/contact

http://www.totemcams.com/blog/archives/944


Let me know if you find others.

Jeremy

The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Sep 19, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
Thanks Jeremy, will do.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Sep 19, 2012 - 02:07pm PT

http://desnivel.com/escalada-roca/sc/david-palmada-pelut-y-ester-olle-abren-via-en-memoria-de-pau-escale-en-las-fisher-towers?l=votado&n=5&v=basica&t=general&m=


Palmada, Strange Science. Taken from desnivel, at link above
Palmada, Strange Science. Taken from desnivel, at link above
Credit: crunch

interesting that the video does back up Jensen's claim of no more than around two feet between placements.



TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Sep 19, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 19, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
Now I see why he likes climbing on sandstone.
ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
Sep 19, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
That's not pretty. Is that what you call a bashie? Is that destruction (clearing out the mud around it) warranted?

I'll stick to free with the (too) occasional hang for a rest. But if I were to get into real aid I'd find out how to make the best style work.

Thanks for the police work guys. The towers rule!
Arne
crunch

Social climber
CO
Sep 19, 2012 - 02:44pm PT
ionlyski,

No not a bashie. It's a Black Diamond Pecker, probably the midsize unit. It all looks totally typical for the Fishers. Looks like it's gonna be a scary placement, but ends up being pretty bomber. And yes, the removing of loose fluff is normal, too. This ain't El Cap....

At some point in the hammering process you're wasting your time keeping on hitting. If you keep going when your arm is tired you can mis-hit and loosen or bend the pin. Precision counts for a lot.

Otherwise, he's doing okay. In fact it looks great. I want some......

Only unusual thing is the spacing. He's hammering at arm's reach above him, yet the previous pin is at his face. Why doesn't he move up one step? He could get a better look at what he's doing, it would make the hammering easier, maybe he could even reach way higher again with the same piton?????????
ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
Sep 19, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
Thanks Steve. I'm learning. Yeah, I felt my arm tiring just watching and I wondered why he hammered so long.

Arne
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 19, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
12 years ago I solo'd Artist Tears after doing it the year prior with a partner.

I returned to find P2 completely blown out from a very recent prior parties over beating the sh#t outta of a series of Beaks/RURPS as the dude in the above video so gallantly displayed. I was livid to say the least.

After finishing, I went straight into town and asked the folks at Pagan if they had heard any recent spray regarding a run up AT. They instantly told me that a crew of Spaniards had come in two weeks prior and told their tales of the route.

Figures.


As Paul G posted above, so very sad.


Here is a pic of the sad scene I had come upon:


Edit: Photo Added
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
Wow, that video clip explains SO much! And I can see now that I really need to issue an apology to the whole climbing community. I am shamed!

That video clip proves to me that we should leave climbing to the professionals! Don't try this at home, kids. I know I've learned MY lesson, sadly, too late!

Amateurs just think wrong. See, like me. I can see that now.

For the first time, I can see some of the huge mistakes I was making on the SA of Weak Sauce. One point for SURE: The whole time I wasn't driving placements DEEP enough, and that was because I was looking for placements that were clearly (to me now) impossible to use.

I was standing on placements (off to the side of the, now obviously, necessary hole ladder) that were, now obviously, not even usable! How STUPID and arrogant of me! I was thinking that 1/8-inch of a pecker tip was okay, so, foolishly, I was STANDING on such things! What was I thinking? I see now that professionals don't DO that, and for good reason!

HOW such placements were working is now completely beyond me. I never realized that professionals just don't use such things... that unless you can get a pecker in ALL the way (and then some), you just don't use it! And, when in doubt (and some of those pecker tips did cause me some doubt), the professionals just pound on the placement some more. Doubt-pound, doubt-pound... until the placement just disappears into the rock.

See, the professionals just KNOW things that we amateurs can't know. That's why they are professionals!

Wow, I would have just stayed COMPLETELY "on route" had I realized.... And, of course, that would have meant that I just couldn't DO the thing. Just too professional for me! I see that now.

I am so, so sorry for my arrogance that could have EVER led me to imagine that I was up to that, professional, caliber of climbing. Can there be any forgiveness?
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 19, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
Chief,

There were also wooden wedges on that climb as well...same with Sundevil.

Jeremy
rick d

climber
ol pueblo, az
Sep 19, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
from the webpage:

"David Palmada agradece el apoyo para poder realizar esta actividad a sus patrocinadores Fixe, Arcteryx, La Sportiva, C.E. Montserrat, Raiders y Totem Cams."

there is a list of sponsors.

of course, Aslaksen sponsored by PBR and Natty Lite.


(this all goes back to climbing for sponsors and title vs love of adventure- and drinking beer.)
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 19, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
Damn, he must be sum kinda badazz if the Raiders sponser him! Whoa!
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Sep 19, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
Just drive some big old ring shank duplex nails into the sawed off dowels. Viola, instant pro.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 19, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
of course, Aslaksen sponsored by PBR and Natty Lite.

I think he Rides the Tiger too:



Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 19, 2012 - 06:11pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#264010
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Sep 19, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
Worst display of an aid move I have ever seen.

Uses a daisy like a poof too.



I place full blame on his local gym.



j-tree

Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
Sep 19, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
Why does every piece get the heavy metal devil horn treatment?
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Sep 19, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
^^^ Because nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 19, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
And that makes this thread's Monty Python reference #5!


...3.

Reference #3!
WBraun

climber
Sep 19, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
When I was in Mali Africa climbing this tower that the Spaniards did I come to the Off Width crack.

They drilled a blot ladder next to it all the way to the belay because they couldn't lead it free nor had the gear to aid it.

Way homo.

Why climb way homo?

Just bail instead and and say you're no good instead of climbing like a inquisitor to conquer.
chill

climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
Sep 19, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
Why climb way homo?

All time favorite Werner quote.
jeff_m

Social climber
700' up
Sep 19, 2012 - 08:43pm PT
Second that. Haha!
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 19, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
Werner...well said.

WAY HOMO.
MisterE

Social climber
Sep 20, 2012 - 01:13am PT
You all need to back off on calling this "Climbing".

This is vertical destruction of the very worst kind.

An ego-driven construct of unfamiliar minds,

ruining history for their own satiation.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 20, 2012 - 01:21am PT
+1000 Mister E

Edit: Forgot +1000 Werner
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 20, 2012 - 04:05am PT
Well, I see everything is about American National Ego...
Someone who has repeated "Intifada" and "Weird Science" among other routes in the Towers, who has opened new routes in Baffin or in the Towers in addition of non expansion aid climbing routes in Europe (which are waiting the Jensen's or other American parties SA), who has repeated all the hardest aid climbing in Spain (see Naranjo de Bulnes, for instance) and has stablished aid climbing speed records, deserves a little bit less of prejudice, although your American ego makes it hard (as hard as the appropriate protection of the Embassies and their Ambassadors, by the way).

And to Paul (who seems the only to have a reasoning vision), all the absolute reasonable questions you do should be answered for the FA team (I repeat that I DO NOT talk in the name of Pelut), but what I say is that Jensen didn't had any intention of answering this questions, otherwise he would have been really interested in having a meeting with them when they were in the Towers last summer and talk about the route or at least answer the posts on his web page... I'm sure a rational person would have acted like this and for sure wouldn't have bolted other's route under a so weak pretext (only a disturbed person or a ego-wounded carry out an action like this). I encourage you to persuade Jeremy to publish the result of his coming trip to the Towers as regards to Weird Science and Pelut & Ester's new route on Kingfisher.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 20, 2012 - 04:24am PT

Well, I see everything is about American National Ego...

The thing that you do not seem to understand is that the route (according to Jensen's blog and pictures) clearly goes against the aid climbing ethics that exist in the US. It is not about national ego but about the fact that manufactured difficulty (drilled hooks, drilled bashies, drilled wooden pegs etc) is considered bad there. The standard is that you should not drill if it is not necessary and if you have to you should fill it with a rivet or bolt.


but what I say is that Jensen didn't had any intention of answering this questions, otherwise he would have been really interested in having a meeting with them when they were in the Towers last summer and talk about the route or at least answer the posts on his web page...

and you know that Jensen read those questions in August?
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 20, 2012 - 04:47am PT
Read ancient posts about if Jensen read or not Pelut's answers on his websites (objective facts clearly indicate so!).

And about the ethics, I do not defend Look out, danger! (although it's hard to me to belive that knowing Pelut, he did a mess like Jensens claims), but everybody in this thread was laughing at FA team and showing absolute perjudice and says nothing about the retobolting Richy did on the route...
raymond phule

climber
Sep 20, 2012 - 04:59am PT

Read ancient posts about if Jensen read or not Pelut's answers on his websites (objective facts clearly indicate so!).

I do not know what you mean. Jensen did answer the first of Pelut's posts but not the late ones. I neither understand spanish so I cant follow the discussion.


And about the ethics, I do not defend Look out, danger! (although it's hard to me to belive that knowing Pelut, he did a mess like Jensens claims), but everybody in this thread was laughing at FA team and showing absolute perjudice and says nothing about the retobolting Richy did on the route...

Have we read the same thread? The comments have been about the route and not due to prejudice. The retro bolting has also been discussed.
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 20, 2012 - 05:44am PT
Well, arrived at this point, I think all positions are clear and we are in a nererending loop...
Have a nice climbs!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 20, 2012 - 06:04am PT
Jensen didn't had any intention of answering this questions, otherwise he would have been really interested in having a meeting with them when they were in the Towers last summer


As stated in "ancient" posts, this is certainly not Jensen's style.

Further, this has little to do with "American Ego" and much more to do with a lack of cultural sensitivity on the part of the climbing party. As any number of posts in this forum alone address, the most important aspects of good aid climbing style in the US aid climbing culture involve following natural progressions of the rock itself, without drilling or modifying the rock unless absolutely necessary (and then, ensuring that the equipment used is such that the route is sustainable and repeatable by parties that follow). The Wings of Steel thread itself has thousands upon thousands of posts addressing this very issue, something I'm sure you've seen yourself if you have in fact reviewed it.

Additionally, many climbers dislike Pelut's decision to generate a series of drilled placements and call the route A6+. This is, justifiably, considered by many to be an overexaggeration of the route's difficulty to the point of absurdity. (Jeremy's frog picture sums it up nicely, doing 5 sit ups does not make one a bad ass.)

Rivet, I was rather hoping to hear a rational rebuttal to Richard's response, or at least an understandable explanation that didn't involve Ad Hominem and a fallback on "American Ego" and nationalism/prejudice as a defense. But as that is all you seem to present, I think you're undermining your own position at this point.

If you have a reasonable, rational take on the situation to present, I would very much like to hear it. Otherwise, it's time to warm up the pony cannon...

Set blasters on PARTY!
Set blasters on PARTY!
Credit: Da_Dweeb
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2012 - 07:25am PT
otherwise he would have been really interested in having a meeting with them when they were in the Towers last summer

Rivet hanger....

Are you talking about the Summer of 2011 or the Summer of 2012? I was at the Fishers both times (in 2011 in early July). And exactly how would I have known that Pelut was there or when he was? I can tell you that he never emailed me, and I didn't even have the blog UP last Summer, so he didn't post on the blog then. Which "August" are you talking about?

If you're talking about this most recent Summer, 2012, anything Pelut would have posted to my blog in August would have had zero effect on the SA, as the SA was already finished by early July (more than a month earlier). So, WHY would I have cared to meet with Pelut AFTER the SA was finished? I didn't need any "answers" from him at that point. I had by then found the answers on the route itself!

I really don't understand why you are so fixated on my responding to and meeting with Pelut. I've explained why I didn't respond in August (last month), and I have recently responded to those two (very sarcastic) posts. Nothing in Pelut's comments last month contributed any "answers" to anything!

What am I missing here? I honestly don't understand why this is such a big issue to you. If you're trying to make the case that I'm somehow "bad" because I "ignored" Pelut, you are not making that case very well. I'm just confused.

**

You also seem to be holding a double-standard. You make it out like I had some duty to contact Pelut before doing the SA. I didn't (although, actually, I tried last year, but that's another story)!

By contrast, you talk about how awesome Pelut is because (among other things) he did a repeat of Intifada. But if Pelut was going to use the (ridiculous and debunked) "A6" rating of Intifada as the basis for his rating of "Look Out...," he had a DUTY to find out something of the history of that route. Had he done even a superficial search on the Net, he would have found out that Intifada is not considered a "hard" route, that the A6 rating was debunked for over a decade, and that Intifada was nothing special to use as a "standard."

HAD he done this, he would have realized that he was NOT "awesome" for doing some repeat of that route, and he would NEVER have said ridiculous things like: "The A6+ is not a proposal. I have the experience of Intifada, which is rated A6." Intifada was NEVER A6, and that fact has been WIDELY known for over a decade!

So, don't claim that I OWED Pelut some contact before doing his route, yet at the same time fail to recognize that Pelut had an even stronger duty to find out EVERYTHING he could about Intifada before doing a repeat of it, since he was going to use it as THE standard of difficulty and the basis for a whole new aid rating!

You can't have it both ways. And you don't seem to realize HOW much credibility Pelut loses by continuing to claim that Intifada was A6.

I don't know what "hardest aid climbs" in Spain you are talking about. But I CAN say at this point that, based upon what I've seen about how Pelut climbs, he would be unable to repeat even what we would call "moderate" routes on El Capitan in good style. Before Pelut came over here to "make his mark" on the American climbing scene, he should have been IN TOUCH with that scene (even if only by reading!). Then he would have realized that "the standard" he thought he was exceeding was not the REAL standard at all!

You don't claim to have put up "the hardest aid climb in the world" without having done what are the REALLY hard climbs in the US. Call that statement "national pride" if you wish. But the fact remains that many of us know that there are MUCH harder things in the US than Intifada, and if Pelut thought Intifada was hard, then THAT says something (not good) about his level and about "the hardest aid climbs" in Spain that he's done! (Does he use the same tactics on all of his climbs?)

And, I'm sorry, but the video clip of Pelut beating and beating on that pecker, reaching only about 24 inches between placements, really was funny. For a guy telling the world that he is the hardest aid-climber in existence, he should know that the tactics he displayed in that video clip did him no favors! This has nothing to do with nationalities! This has to do with tactics and skills. When we hear Pelut's CLAIMS and then see that video clip, well, sorry, but many of us just naturally laugh.

Finally, what you MOST fail to realize is that how I did the SA of "Look Out" is meaningless when talking about how Pelut did the FA! Bashing on the SA changes nothing about the FA. Bashing on SA does NOT shield Pelut from the legitimate anger we feel about how he did the FA, especially given his CLAIMS about it. No matter how "bad" you claim my SA was, by any measure of "badness" you care to use, Pelut's FA was far, far, FAR worse!

So, you don't keep Pelut from having to "face the music" by bashing on the SA. Regardless of what I did, we all now know the reality of what Pelut did on the FA, and it IS a travesty. And we all now know that Pelut's claims about the route were disingenuous or false. Pics don't lie, and Pelut's own video clips correlate perfectly with the pics. You CANNOT use the drill for virtually every placement and then claim you are awesome! And you cannot use the drill for virtually every placement on a climb in the United States and not catch a lot of heat for it!

Wake up, my friend. You've hitched your cart to the wrong horse... uhhh... pony... whatever.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 20, 2012 - 09:20am PT
He's just a tool, Mark. Don't bother. They got the message, there is literally no thing you can say that will absolve in his eyes.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 20, 2012 - 09:31am PT
Yoooooooooooo RIVET HANGER,

Please explain and then justify this behavior.....
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 20, 2012 - 10:04am PT
Ok Richy, everything is clear!
But what I exactly critize is that you create an ex profeso web page to explain your epic exploit weeks ago of even beginning the SA. Anyway, you don't contact the authors of the route to at least get the topo, you don't even try to find out who they are and their previous experience (and perhaps nobody better than you should be concerned about that taking in account your story of WOS), you disfigure the route by bolting it under an at least questionable pretext, you injury and acuse them of even lift up a handsaw to invalidate a possible SA, and once Pelut's finds your web page out and contacts you (that was June 23th and what is much more than you did!) and at the beginning of August repeatedly pushes to contact you coz he is the Towers making a new route and repeating Weird Science, you just don't even answer (although you "publish" a post in Supertopo!)... Well, to be honest, you answer on September 17th (One month and a half later!). And meanwhile, all supertopo community applauds your heroic deed without any kind of critic vision (American Aid Climbing inbred coefficient? Just see the 2nd comment down there: http://climbing.about.com/b/2009/09/11/is-new-fisher-towers-aid-route-a-mythical-a6.htm. Perhaps is even yours).

What I think is that your ego was hardly wounded by the not-so-megahyperextreme A5 WOS (just A3+, isn't it?) and you had to discharge your frustration somehow. You downrated Intifada from A6 to A4+ and Ammon downrated your A5 to A3+. Beyer was a little bit more right than you anyway...
Come on man, at least you have what you were searching for: you are the fu--ing superhero of Supertopo and now everybody knows that yours is the biggest Dick in aid climbing planet worlwide! Has Black Diamond contacted you yet?
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 20, 2012 - 10:09am PT
Answer the question RIVET HANGER!


PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEAS Explain the behavior in the video I posted.
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 20, 2012 - 10:13am PT
Explanation: this is a Pecker. (Pecker, this is The Chief!)
Justification: Crazy people use this to progress when find thin cracks. You must be very carefully because perhaps won't hold your weight in the case of falling down...
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 20, 2012 - 10:21am PT
lol google translate.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 20, 2012 - 10:23am PT
you disfigure the route

The concept of disfiguring this travesty of a hole ladder el pinche maricon drilled up a blank wall is about like the idea of deflowering a whore.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 20, 2012 - 10:32am PT
Yoooooooooooooooooo Rivet Hanger...

Beating the shet outta of a Pecker (59 poundings??? WTF!!!!!) into vertical mud is not climbing. It is lowering the route down to one's total inept ability.

The biggest "HETRO" deal hear, is doing the dirty destructive deed all along the supposed route and then spraying it to the world as an A6+.


Fact is, the route most likely would have gone A3+ had the individuals had any rea; ability to climb. But after their total ineptness in ability and destruction, it became A6+ cus nothing was left to work with.

Total FAIL!


Edit: Changed verbiage to "Hetro"



BlackSpider

Ice climber
Sep 20, 2012 - 10:35am PT
What I think is that your ego was hardly wounded by the not-so-megahyperextreme A5 WOS (just A3+, isn't it?) and you had to discharge your frustration somehow. You downrated Intifada from A6 to A4+ and Ammon downrated your A5 to A3+. Beyer was a little bit more right than you anyway...

This is a completely apples-to-oranges comparison because the aid climbing grade scale has been widely readjusted over the past 30 years, and many "A5" routes from the same rough time period as Wings of Steel are now considered A4 or even A3/+. Also, Ammon had access to modern gear (small cams, etc.) that the FA team didn't (don't know how much this affected the grade but he made a point of mentioning that it helped on certain pitches). Whereas Intifada has been subject to downgrades by multiple parties without any reference (that I can tell) to "new wave/old school" grading discrepancies, nor does newer equipment appear to be a factor; it was just over-graded.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 20, 2012 - 10:35am PT
Dude I saw this rad tower out East, massive first ascent potential. Definite A6 nailing that I saw being done over there by locals, hardcore sh#t.


































Here's Weld-it working on a fresh and hot A7-, but he had to paint the f*#kin thing - only way the landowner gave permission. Damn natives...


Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 20, 2012 - 10:41am PT
You're right the Chief! Even in Europe we've heard that all the American Aid Climbers put the feet on the last step of the aiders when hanging of Peckers. This way you save money and don't buy unnecessary iron... In addition of impressing worldwide aid climbers community!
By the way, 3 poundings is enough for a Pecker in vertical mud? (And please, try not to write like a Bronx member, I do not understand slang (although this thread is helping me a lot), sorry! And the same to you ElCap, sorry for my not-native English! I apologize!).
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Sep 20, 2012 - 11:21am PT
Rivet Hanger = Da Dweeb ?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 20, 2012 - 11:24am PT
This thread needs a Fish audio rant, badly.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 20, 2012 - 11:48am PT
Even in Europe we've heard that all the American Aid Climbers put the feet on the last step of the aiders when hanging of Peckers. This way you save money and don't buy unnecessary iron..

It's called COJONES amigo.

Something the authors of the route in question (OP) had absolutely NONE of.

My three Perro's do a far better and more aesthetic job at climbing aid than either one of the total fails on the team that created this atrocity of a "HOMO" line.

The ONLY "Look Out! Danger" about this route are the two STOOGES that put it up.
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 20, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
Sure Chief!
That's why you've repeated hard routes in the Fisher Towers including Intifada, Weird Science, Beaking in Tongues or Death of American Democracy... And needless to talk about your hard ascents in Yosemite or Black Canyon and even your epic first ascents. Youtube is full of your last-step aiders Pecker placing with just 2.5 poundings!
raymond phule

climber
Sep 20, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
Do you know that the FA team of weird science post on this thread?
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 20, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
Yes!
Jeremy, who gently introduced himself and Paul, who seems to be the most racional in this thread...
Of Jeremy I expect a good report of his coming trip to the Towers of Look out, Danger!, Weird science after Pelut and Ester SA and the new route these Catalans opened in Kingfisher.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 20, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
Still waiting for a topo of their new route.

One that actually speaks the truth would be nice.

As I said before, let's see the gear list, pitch length, and hole count.

Well?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 20, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
Rivet Hanger = Da Dweeb ?



Snap, he's onto me...

--- Coz
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 20, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMH-GKweLsU&feature=plcp

Additional video of retro-drilling on Intifada (Beyer - Cottontail).

Stay classy Palut.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 20, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
That vid was a hack job - but he really thinks he's dyno-mite! What a waste
of a couple of minutes - I kept fast forwarding to see if there would be
any climbing.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 20, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
Wow.. that video did suck. Where was the climbing? It's really too bad Pelut repeated Intifada and got the idea that trenching was cool.... I can't believe he would just throw that in the opening montage. They really don't get it.

Edit: I don't even aid climb and even I could tell that he was melding that pecker into the crack and trashing the rock.
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
Wow, rivet hanger... Pelut drilled on Intifada! What's up with that? You accuse me of (I like the up-thread analogy!) deflowering Pelut's whore, but when Mark and I did the SA of Intifada, we never drilled nor added a single hole. Many ascents later your hero, Pelut, has to DRILL on it!?! What's up with that?

I laugh at your WoS references. Since WoS has been "downgraded," Pelut should have NO problem strolling up that route in a couple of days! I urge him to give it a shot. (Uhh... he WILL have to learn to top-step his aiders. That could be a problem.) No need to even BRING a drill up onto the route (we don't trust him with it, btw!). He'll just need smaller hooks than he's used to. But, after all, it's only A3+, so he won't even have to "look out" for any "danger!"

My friend, you can attempt all you want to "get a rise" out of me regarding WoS or the SA of "Look Out! Weak Sauce!" Not gonna happen. I'm pretty secure, and my self-image and success in the world do not revolve around climbing. Even if WoS was actually downgraded, that wouldn't bother me. The WHOLE issue for Mark and I about that route was setting the record straight about what tactics we did and did not use on the FA. That's been settled at this point. Unlike your hero, my ego is not all wrapped up in the rating of such things, and I don't need to make any money climbing... it's not my career. I'm just an amateur, not a way-awesome professional like your hero.

And ALL you say, with ALL the ways you try to dance around the subject, changes nothing about the horrific tactics your hero employs whenever he touches the rock. FA, SA, or just some-A, his tactics are heavy-handed, show NO respect for the rock, show NO understanding of what climbing actually is (conforming oneself to what the rock actually presents), and indicate that he climbs scared ALL the time (sewing up every pitch with at least twice as many placements as are needed). The net effect of his tactics is dramatic and utterly unnecessary rock destruction, as he brings every pitch down to his timid level.

Again, if he's so bad-ass, let him take a shot at WoS, which is only A3+. I think that within ten feet (if he can get that far) he'll realize that what he has been thinking is "hard" is really nothing.

Seriously, Pelut has NO, repeat NO, NO, NO idea what "hard" is, and there are many routes just on El Cap that would teach him that lesson. WoS isn't even a "hard" route! Right? Just look at the rating, so you say. Right? So, seriously, let him try some "moderate" routes here, and perhaps he'll learn how to climb.

Desert rock is NOT for beginners, which is what Pelut seems to be. It's barely even "rock," and it demands special respect and sensitivity (neither of which Pelut seems to have). So he should FIRST learn how to climb on some real rock (such as El Cap granite), learn what "difficulty" actually is and how to negotiate it without heavy-handed tactics, and then, years from now, perhaps he can touch desert rock with some respect!
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 20, 2012 - 04:52pm PT
Again, if he's so bad-ass, let him take a shot at WoS, which is only A3+.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

DO NOT GIVE HIM ANY IDEAS!

With his new found youtube reputation, he will most certainly destroy & "HOMO" up that route as well. Beat, Bash and Drill it to submission.


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO... stay back in Espana and do your shet beating/bashing/drilling there,
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
LOL, Chief, you're right. Maybe after his "successful" outing to the States, he'll just go home and take his drill with him. I'm sure that nothing we're trying to convey even TOUCHES him. This seems to be a guy so taken with himself (just look at the STYLE of those vids) that he is impervious to the perspectives of others. He just KNOWS he's awesome, and nothing can cause him to even begin to doubt it.

I do wish he'd try any number of routes on real rock that could not be as easily hacked up with a few hammer blows. I have this vain hope that he'd learn something. But, you're right. Based on that one vid, it's clear he'd just hack longer and harder.

Best we can do is hack away at his sponsors....
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 20, 2012 - 05:31pm PT

This thread needs a Fish audio rant, badly.

Hear hear!

Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 20, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
Oldies but goodies...glad Palut decided to video tape his "exploits" for all the world to see. Enjoy these screen grabs from Look Out Danger.

photo not found
Missing photo ID#248484

photo not found
Missing photo ID#248483

photo not found
Missing photo ID#248482

photo not found
Missing photo ID#248481

photo not found
Missing photo ID#248480



WAY...
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 20, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
edited for inappropriate slur.
Gene

climber
Sep 20, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
WAY...
BASE1361

climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
Sep 20, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
The beak taking a 52 blows of the hammer along with obliterating the fishers with each blow was a sad video. You seem more interested in the GoPro action then placing a beak 12" above the last.

Whats with the sign of the devil after each time you destroy the rock?

The other video he was more wrapped up in the first part of the video with the AC/DC and making the video give someone seizures while spending the rest of the video talking about climbing with no real climbing. waste of 7 minutes of one's life.

While I don't have the balls to climb in the fishers nor A4 I do respect it enough to not dumb something down to my lack of skill or size of my balls.

Respect to those of you who carry the balls as big as church bells and climb with a style of some ethics. Jeremy and Gagner have rocked the sh#t out of the Fishers over the past few years. Give them your topo Satin. Let them confirm or deny your route?

Every blow of that pecker and watching the mud fall away says it all.

52 times over.

Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 20, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
Rivet Hanger-

What I think is that your ego was hardly wounded by the not-so-megahyperextreme A5 WOS (just A3+, isn't it?) and you had to discharge your frustration somehow. You downrated Intifada from A6 to A4+ and Ammon downrated your A5 to A3+. Beyer was a little bit more right than you anyway...

Credit: Da_Dweeb


Come on man, at least you have what you were searching for: you are the fu--ing superhero of Supertopo and now everybody knows that yours is the biggest Dick in aid climbing planet worlwide! Has Black Diamond contacted you yet?

Trixie is not so sure she could beat Rivet Hangar at his special talen...
Trixie is not so sure she could beat Rivet Hangar at his special talent of being a tool.
Credit: Da_Dweeb

Dude, do you know what I mean when I say you're using Ad Hominem?

Copypasta, Ad hominem is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or unrelated belief of the person supporting it. Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as a logical fallacy, more precisely an informal fallacy and an irrelevance.

Which is precisely what all of your arguments continue to be - irrelevant. We're looking at solid video and photos of what went down on Pelut's climb, and fact reporting by Jensen backed up by his own photography. You're addressing claims that the climb was a botch almost unanimously by the climbers in this thread (which is almost unheard of on supertopo, let me tell you) by arguing that Richard has an ego, that Wings of Steel wasn't THAT big a deal, that Richard ignored Pelut's posts (which he addressed), that he shouldn't have bolted on a SA (which he also addressed), and that any complaints are the result of prejudice by US climbers (which demonstrates your own lack of cultural sensitivity to how aid climbing is done in the US, and willingness to jump to this sad, tired, nationalistic fallback). Each and every one of these arguments is irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Get real. Pony up, and present something solid.

Maybe email Pelut and get him to post in his defense on this thread or something, but you're just digging a deeper hole continuing on the way you have been.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Sep 20, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
I figured it was just a matter of time until the ponies showed up...
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 20, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
I'd hate to disappoint, Captain.
j-tree

Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
Sep 20, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
Best juxtaposition of ponies and intelligent content.

+1
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 20, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
I'll bear it in mind for the future, J-tree. And thanks!
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 20, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
That video is eye rape.
BASE1361

climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
Sep 21, 2012 - 12:02am PT
I think its in reference to the Spaniards "pony up"

or STFU!!

Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Sep 21, 2012 - 12:06am PT
Maybe you guys should lay off the "Spaniards are pussies" thing. This particular Spaniard obviously should have stayed home and stuck with trying to finally get the purple route at the gym, but that doesn't mean there aren't Spaniards who are ten times more badass than you.

Dump on him, not on his country.
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Sep 21, 2012 - 12:11am PT
That's how aid climbing is done? 52 blows knocking a pecker into some hardened mud?
I've been doing it all wrong.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 21, 2012 - 12:19am PT
Ghost does make a compelling point.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Sep 21, 2012 - 12:39am PT
Ghost does make a compelling point.

Thanks. And another point is that maybe "The Chief" should think twice about the "Way Homo" crap that he's spewing. I know it'll be tough for him to admit this, but some of those Navy heroes he worked with and constantly points to as people we should look up to were homos.

So dump on Pelut all you want, but keep your homophobia to yourself.
MisterE

Social climber
Sep 21, 2012 - 01:18am PT
Thanks Base, for counting the number of blows while I just kept wincing... dumfounded.

Every one of those strikes causes more blow-out during removal. I seriously think he has not a clue of what the repercussions of his actions are.

Or worse: he knows, but just doesn't care.

Someone please archive this in case he has second thoughts and deletes the videos.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 21, 2012 - 03:15am PT
Aye, Ghost. Also an important point. I'm not terribly keen on that stuff myself. Just figured Werners gonna Wern.

Also, Mister E, I'm downloading the videos as we speak.

EDIT: Videos downloaded and archived. Feel free to visit Youtube and "Dislike" and comment on why to your hearts content.
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 21, 2012 - 03:33am PT
Ok, ALL YOU are right!
Keep on increasing your inbred coefficient and feeding your prejudice...
Bye!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 21, 2012 - 03:36am PT
Keep on increasing your inbred coefficient and feeding your prejudice...
Bye!

My Little Face when Rivet fails to comprehend any single solitary poin...
My Little Face when Rivet fails to comprehend any single solitary point I've been patiently trying to explain...
Credit: Da_Dweeb

Okay, bye Rivet! I'm gonna miss you.

DAMN that's some good cherry beer...

Cheers!

Credit: Da_Dweeb
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 21, 2012 - 04:19am PT
Sorry, I break my promise Da-Dweeb, but just for a moment!
I've seen this picture here in supertopo and I couldn't resist, sorrry!
I guess they are Americans (from USA, because America is much bigger) and they are not placing the gear standing in the last step of the aiders with just 3 pundings seeing the rock is a little bit broken!
So, could they be considered HOMO climbers (altough in Spain homo couples, both men and women, can marry and even adopt a child, so here homo is not excatly an injury...)?
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/photo_view.php?dpid=Pj07PDg4Jygm
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 21, 2012 - 04:26am PT
so here homo is not excatly an injury...

Nor should it be, and well spoken.

If only the rest of what you had to say was so sensible...
raymond phule

climber
Sep 21, 2012 - 04:44am PT

I guess they are Americans (from USA, because America is much bigger) and they are not placing the gear standing in the last step of the aiders with just 3 pundings seeing the rock is a little bit broken!

http://www.supertopo.com/inc/photo_view.php?dpid=Pj07PDg4Jygm

and you know that from a picture of someone cleaning a route?

I hope that you continue posting for the entertainment value but I also hope that you understand that your posts do nothing good for yourself, your side of the story or Pelut. Ad hominem attacks instead of discussing the issue just make you look like a fool.
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 21, 2012 - 07:29am PT
By the way, Richy, you and Mark don't seem to go to the last step of the aiders in this (and the others) photos of Intifada... More than 18 inches?
The roof does not seem exactly extrem aid climbing...
http://jensenconsultations.com/climbing/intifada/r_int14.html
http://jensenconsultations.com/climbing/intifada/r_int03.html
BlackSpider

Ice climber
Sep 21, 2012 - 08:04am PT
By the way, Richy, you and Mark don't seem to go to the last step of the aiders in this (and the others) photos of Intifada... More than 18 inches?
The roof does not seem exactly extrem aid climbing...
http://jensenconsultations.com/climbing/intifada/r_int14.html
http://jensenconsultations.com/climbing/intifada/r_int03.html

So you think plugging a cam every two feet is the same thing as drilling and trenching a bashie?
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 21, 2012 - 09:16am PT
Well, seeing the comments of all those superheroes in this thread, I would not expect a cam every 40 cm in a roof like that. At least they shouldn't accuse Pelut of putting a gear every 18 inches because it's clear they do the same and Pelut's gear is not exactly a bomb-proof cam. At this point, perhaps someone should consider something...
On the other side, Jensen bolted the route, what obviously is drilling. And at least in Europe, although drilling little holes it's not an ethic action, drilling bolts and rivets it's really worst and does not have any possible justification.
But, if your high inbred coefficient does not allow you to admit it, that's another thing...
raymond phule

climber
Sep 21, 2012 - 09:29am PT

And at least in Europe, although drilling little holes it's not an ethic action, drilling bolts and rivets it's really worst and does not have any possible justification.
But, if your high inbred coefficient does not allow you to see it, that's another thing...

What about trying to follow the ethics in the area that you are visiting?

Why the insults in almost all posts? Do you believe that insults helps your argument?
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 21, 2012 - 09:39am PT
Homo is not an injury?
In addition, begin reading the thread since the beginning and you'll find who was insulting first...
Anyway, you are right, I'll try to contain myself even in the case of evident prejudice over Non-American aid climbers (which I think explains a lot of things in addition of ego).
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Sep 21, 2012 - 09:44am PT
It's the Inbreds versus the Homos now,
not that there is anything wrong with that.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 21, 2012 - 09:48am PT
So you must continue with insults if some other people insult you? I am not sure who started the insults but it was the route that started the discussion. A route that was put up in really bad style according to the local ethics and you and the FA team still do not seem to understand that.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 21, 2012 - 09:56am PT

even in the case of evident prejudice over Non-American aid climbers (which I think explains a lot of things in addition of ego).

The problem is that the route in question do not show the FA team in any good light.

I don't doubt that things like prejudice, locals vs non locals, americans vs non-americans sometimes matter in discussions about routes but it is obvious to me that that is not the main issue about this route.
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 21, 2012 - 10:06am PT
"A route that was put up in really bad style according to the local ethics and you and the FA team still do not seem to understand that."
Let's accept that's true, ok (I don't see why you believe so fiercely Jensen. Just a bunch o photos...)? The FA ascent did it really wrong, that would be perfectly correct here and in Europe.
But, why create a web page to announce that even before have done the SA? Why not even answer the FA team callings for a meeting (although just for saying how wrong where they)? Why retrobolting the route and placing even belay chains on the route (is this respect?)? Why saying they are really bad climbers when they have repeated hard routes like Intifada or Weird Science and have made new routes in Baffin and hard routes in Spain? Why the first reaction when you know they've repeted your route (I mean Weird Science) must be I'll be there watching the havoc they've done instead of I want to contact with them to know their opinion? Why the first reaction when you know they've opened another route in Kingfisher must be another shitty homo route? Why not showing a little bit more of respect and a little bit less of perjudice?
Since my point of view perhaps just because David and Ester weren't born in your part of the pool...

The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 21, 2012 - 10:06am PT
Thanks. And another point is that maybe "The Chief" should think twice about the "Way Homo" crap that he's spewing. I know it'll be tough for him to admit this, but some of those Navy heroes he worked with and constantly points to as people we should look up to were homos.

So dump on Pelut all you want, but keep your homophobia to yourself.

Truly amazing.

I use this term in quotations to reiterate Werner's opinion of this route and style in which these individuals utilized to decimate their way up this particular feature.

Interesting how it instantly becomes personalized.

So I will change it from "Hetro" to "Cojonesless" abilities and performance.

This route is just another example of what modern day sponsored climbing has resulted in. Just like that Redbull atrocity that was commited in Patagonia. All for show and to sell a certain product/s to the ignorant ones out there that know no better. They see this behavior as badass and need to be just like these two so-called climbers that trenched, chipped, drilled their way up this fragile piece of vertical mud.

River Hanger:

It is very apparent that you know nothing about the word style and aesthetics. Your only concern is grooping a line and conquering in any manner possible. Regardless the damage and destruction you do along the way.

Got get that FA no matter what.... "Cojonesless" is at the top of your game.



Edit: Cleaned up the verbiage to "Hetro"
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 21, 2012 - 10:10am PT
And what's up with these photos The Chief?
http://jensenconsultations.com/climbing/intifada/r_int14.html
http://jensenconsultations.com/climbing/intifada/r_int03.html
Also Homo way or just hard aid climbing? Both come from SA of Intifada...
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 21, 2012 - 10:19am PT
Rivet:

I got on Intifada back in May of 2000, solo. I backed off after P3 as I saw some really obvious nasty manipulation and destruction that was done Prior to Jensen's SA. I believe that I was the third or fourth to have gone up it

I wanted nothing to do with it... and that is not Jensens work I speak of.

I was thoroughly disgusted at what I had encountered. Just as I was when I returned to Artist Tears and saw what a visiting crew had done to P2 in order to overcome the obsticles that existed for over 10 years.

This whole mentality that I see that you are condoning is so fked up.

I commend the likes of Chris Mac and others that motivated some of us to rid ourselves of the hammer, grow a pair, and attempt what were once beaten lines, by pushing the cojones meter several notches and doing them CLEAN!

Now had you or fellow Catalanes done this line CLEAN and not pounded/bashed your way up the mud, that would have been totally New Wave and truly a badass climb.....

It is ovious that you and your fellow conquistadores truly fail to understand this philosophy of Clean Climbing ethics.
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 21, 2012 - 10:48am PT
The Chief I appreciate your not so hostile attitude and your respect to me when not writing "slang" that unfortunately I cannot understand.
I'm not here to defend Pelut and Ester, this action corresponds to them and that's is what I answered to Paul Gagner in an older post. They are who should answer some questions. I just was shocked of seeing how people in supertopo supported Jensen's attitude and his retrobolting of the route under a weak pretext.
As far as I know, I think that your vision of aid climbing is very accurate. But I also have to say that American aid climbing community is not so critic with itself than when climbers come from abroad. Perhaps you know this thread, but it seems very interesting (specially the most recent posts): http://www.mountainproject.com/v/utah/moab_area/fisher_towers/105717394
I guess we'll agree there's not too much pungency in these words and that perhaps even a MAster like Beyer did not followed the clean ethics 100%.
canyoncat

Social climber
SoCal
Sep 21, 2012 - 10:54am PT
Rivet Hanger, are you actually trying to scold Jensen about bolting ethics after the FA drilled more holes on the wall than swiss cheese? Srsly?
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Sep 21, 2012 - 10:55am PT
It is ovious that you and your fellow conquistadores truly fail to understand this philosophy of Clean Climbing ethics.

"Clean" is not in their vocabulary. Have you seen the base of their cliffs? I've never seen so much garbage in my life. The climbing was awesome, but the litter piles stole from the experience.
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 21, 2012 - 11:00am PT
Come on Pitbulls, read a little bit...
//Beyer told me that on this route, and on World's End, he developed the innovative technique of drilling two (or was it three?) 1/4" holes immediately above each other and then pounding in an alumihead (the old rectangular Forrest versions work best for this) into the resulting slot. Trenching for the Fishers. He also told me he did not want this printed in Bjornstad's guidebook. This gets a little weird years later when someone tries a second ascent, and the slots have degraded and eroded out ( the rock can erode really fast; I have actually seen Beyer copperheads on top of little protrusions of rock); and there is no mention of any of this in Beyer's own descriptions/topos. What's a second ascentionist to do?In the case of World's End, the second ascentionist retreated, baffled, and, after a long phone call to Beyer, returned to the fray armed with a drill, and rather more liberal attitude to using it.With Intifada, the second ascentionists, once they realized that there were lots of driled holes already on the route, figured there was no harm in deepening existing holes. I was camping in the Fishers when Tim Wagner did the third ascent of Intifada. This was a fine effort, done solo. As I recall, he told me he had no clue about who was responsible for the numerous holes all over the route. He just used the holes he could, and drilled others out deeper as needed (ie if they had degraded/flared out and were unusable).// Steve "Crusher" Bartlett
Swiss cheese? Retrobolting after long phone call to Beyer? Tim Wagner using the holes he could and drilling new ones? Where are they from? Do we make a huge fire and burn'em all together with Pelut and Ester under pretext of sinners? Do we include Jensen in this purification?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 21, 2012 - 11:35am PT
Let me try to make this clear, Rivet:

You do not chose a "line" that is not a line, that does not follow a series of features, and therefore requires a ridiculous amount of holes. Mistake number 1.

You do not fill holes with non-standard, oddball, proprietary gear that will be unsuable for parties that follow...like broken off wooden pegs and goofy fat heads. The goal is a sustainable, repeatable route with minimal modification to the rock. Mistake number 2.

You do not pound on pins to the point of destroying the placement and making it unusable for future parties. Mistake number 3.

You do not place these overdriven pins every 2' because you're too scared or lacking in skills to get out of your third steps on vertical to sub vertical terrain. Mistake number 4.

You do not then spray to the world that your wholly manufactured, unsustainable hole ladder, with minimal technical difficulty and artifically induced "danger" like ridiculous "hook belays" that actually have bomber drilled placements incorporated, is the "hardest aid route in the world". Mistake number 5.

I could go on, but that's not getting my work done. Just accept that your hero is a fraud, a charlatan, a publicity whore hack, who is full of more sh#t than a Porta Potty at a Chili Cookoff.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 21, 2012 - 11:36am PT
He also told me he did not want this printed in Bjornstad's guidebook

You didn't find that fishy?

We should always be open and honest about what we do - attempting to cover up is what really irks blue collar 'merican climbers.
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 21, 2012 - 11:44am PT
Elcapinyoazz, please, reading comprehension...
My English level is not good and from Steve Bartlett words I can understand a lot of things, even the alumiheads and the hole filling, the erosion of the Tower's rock and oh surprise, how will this vertical mud react when cleaning the pitch (something that is obvious watching Jensen photos, indeed)...
We can argue in another thread if this is right or not (I admit is not the best way), but you should admit that perhaps all you were too though with Pelut and Ester and very soft with Beyer & co. and this is not a pretty fair position. Just a matter of American proud?

And please, we agreed that no more insults, didn't we? Come on!

And after all, and perhaps the most important, who asures all you that Jensen did not drilled those pretty holes where the angles are placed in his web page video of the anchors belay? He was alone up there, wasn't he? He says he'll release a video, will see if the holes where there yet or he drilled'em. At bottom, he retrobolted the route without remorse, so any remorse for drilling a nail hole or a pair?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Sep 21, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
feckin foreigners...
raymond phule

climber
Sep 21, 2012 - 12:13pm PT
I don't believe that people have been soft on Beyer. I have at least read a lot of negative things about him and his routes here on supertopo.

It was a long time since I read what Jensen wrote about Intifada but I believe that he was very negative about both the route and Beyer.
BlackSpider

Ice climber
Sep 21, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
And after all, and perhaps the most important, who asures all you that Jensen did not drilled those pretty holes where the angles are placed in his web page video of the anchors belay? He was alone up there, wasn't he? He says he'll release a video, will see if the holes where there yet or he drilled'em. At bottom, he retrobolted the route without remorse, so any remorse for drilling a nail hole or a pair?

So wait a minute, a guy who has been completely forthcoming about retro-drilling a route with rivets, even going so far as to name his choice of rivet, is going to lie about drilling an angle? Do you even think this stuff through before you post it? If he was going to lie, why not just drill bolts and then claim the FA team placed them? Try using Occam's razor once in a while.

Also, many of the drilled placements visible in Jensen's pics are the same as those in the pics that Jeremy posted, which are from Palut's own video.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 21, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
Rivet Hanger,

Beyer's heavy-handed tactics (trenching/drilling head placements) were NEVER thought of as "good style".

http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Worlds-End-5-9-A4-Fisher-Towers-TR/t11555n.html

Most if not all aid climbers would agree (except hacks like Palut).

Things are done differently now and Palut should DAMN WELL KNOW THAT.

Jeremy Aslaksen

Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 21, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
Really, do you see an three angle on Jeremy's posted photos?
Towers are a quiet place, but not so much because a person with a binocles would have seen the bolts drilled by Pelut....
I'm just saying that you blindly relay on Jensen's photos and laught at Pelut & Ester without any criteria...
Indeed, I'm always trying to say and demostarte the same... If they were Americans...
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 21, 2012 - 12:27pm PT
You are probably right, but then you should admit that Jensen used the same ugly tactics on the SA of Intifada and even in WOS (bat hook is what I understand it is?) and he has never been critisized as hard as Pelut and in addition he has recieved ALL the credibility in this thread.
That's an option, of course, but let me think it's not the fairest one!
And Thanks to you and Paul, I didn't know you where the authors of this SA. By the way, is Paul now working in "Sons of Anarchy"? (It's just a joke, no intention of attack him! But he looks like the staring with a helmet and sun glasses!)
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 21, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
Just accept that your hero is a fraud, a charlatan, a publicity whore hack, who is full of more sh#t than a Porta Potty at a Chili Cookoff.

Seems to be a systematic and accepted ideal within our community the world wide, these days.

So very sad.....
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 21, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
This has nothing to do with nationality RH...and you know it.

As Paul stated earlier in this thread...new routes put up in good style are always welcome!

Unfortunately Palut's "routes" aren't done in good style and show no respect for local traditions or history.

Where did he learn these tactics of trenching, lying, drilling his way up blank stone while ignoring all natural features?

Isn't the "game" of aid climbing following/discovering what the rock gave you? Isn't it also part of the game to know that when you get shut down/cracks blank out that it's time to bail? There is no dishonor in that. I have bailed NUMEROUS times from new routes when features didn't link up. Sure I could have just drilled my way up (like Palut) but where is the adventure/style in that?



Jeremy Aslaksen
j-tree

Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
Sep 21, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
...then you should admit that Jensen... has never been critisized as hard as Pelut.

lol
canyoncat

Social climber
SoCal
Sep 21, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
Just for the record and in spite of RH's efforts to confuse the issue, this thread is about ONE route, not WOS, not Intifada, or other climbers. This is not Americans vs Foreigners. This is not "let's talk about other routes and other climbers", and if they screwed up maybe this screwup isn't so bad either.

It is about Look Out, Danger and the style in which the FA was done.

If RH could confine his comments to whether he feels the FA used an appropriate number of drilled holes to create the route or not, I think much of the butt-hurt could be avoided.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 21, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
Pere Larocalla, (RH)

I would like to apologize for my use of the word h*mo. It was inappropriate and not how I would like to be treated.

Beyer has recieved more than his share of flack for his heavy handed tactics on Intifada and Richard and Mark basically proved that he brought the route down to his level.

I realized that, on the first pitch at least, Beyer had bypassed natural hook placements, and had used the drill instead to trench heads which weren't needed. We rated the pitch A4. Had he hooked everything that was available, instead of trenching, Beyer would have had an A5 ground-fall pitch. Instead, Beyer appeared to have "brought the pitch down to his level".

You should read their trip report. http://www.jensenconsultations.com/climbing/intifada/intifada.html

Why did you not include this part of Crusher's statement from Mountain Project?


Anyway, three points/slanderous comments:

1. If a route in the Fishers employs an indeterminate number of drilled holes/slots, and the first ascentionist doesn't telll anyone, it seems quite understandable to me that folks, once they realize what was done, will drill deeper holes_and, what is far worse, if they cannot find a hole, they'll drill a new one because they will rationalize that the old hole has eroded out altogether.

2. What do other folks think of this trenching technique?"The second ascent drilled some of the holes deeper to place baby angles." If a hole was drilled by the first ascentionist, is it bad to drill it deeper? If so, why?

3. Anyone who thinks that Jim Beyer, on those A4/5 leads, was taking out his 25-foot Stanly tape and methodically limiting himself to no more than 1/4" deep probably still believes that Clinton resolutely refused to inhale.

What Steve is saying is that this style of climbing is not sustainable and damages the rock for future generations. It also causes future ascensionists to have to drill thier own placements if the FA teams's placements are eroded or they can't find them.

What I don't think you quite understand is that 1 Hole = 1 Bolt. It doesn't matter what you put in that hole, you are still giving up and destroying the rock so that you can advance your climb. Hence that logic, you might as well put a bolt in the hole and leave the rock more or less intact for future generations to try and improve on your style. With that logic in mind, Pelut basically made a bolt ladder up the side of the Titan, but then didn't even have the courtesy to fill it with metal, so the second ascent could follow his line.

If you have to drill holes all the way up what's the point??? It's like Gdavis says you might as well go climb the side of a building! A6 is a false rating. It doesn't exist. The fact that Pelut didn't do enough research to discover that and is now following Beyers horrible example and desecrating the rock is a real shame.

If you want to establish a route like this, I would highly suggest not reporting to anyone at all and certainly not claiming that it was the hardest route in the world when almost any climber with little aid experience and enough time could easily accomplish the same task.

I hope Pelut sees the errors of his ways and discovers the challenges that real climbing have to offer!

this just in

climber
north fork
Sep 21, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
Hey Rivet Fuk Fernando Alonso.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Sep 21, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
"Beyer"....sheesh. That guy's OUT THERE.
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
Long Post Warning....

Rivet Hanger, I believe that you are making a legitimate form of argument when you essentially accuse us of having a double standard. I take you to be saying something like: "Look, you guys, all these other well-known climbers do the very same things you are bashing on Pelut for." So, when we say that this thread is not about other climbs, in your mind we're basically refusing to acknowledge that double standard.

So, let me try to be very systematic here.

You take a couple of pictures showing Mark on Intifada with placements close together, and you call the placements "bombproof cams." So, how can I bash on Pelut for close placements, when me and Mark have done the "same thing?"

Three responses....

One: the placements were not bombproof cams. In fact, one of them popped shortly before those pictures were taken. The cams are "close together" because that crack is much more flared than the pics indicate (and in two dimensions). As Mark would try to lean farther to the left, the cam he was on would rotate slightly, causing it to pop out. So, Mark had to very carefully stay directly beneath each placement in order to keep making progress. That limited his reach (and moving sideways necessitates shorter reaches anyway).

Two: comparing delicate, flared, sideways cam placements to straight-up, drilled placements on open rock is ludicrous. When you're drilling vertically, you have complete control over your placement-distance. You simply reach UP as far as you can (or are willing to) to drill the next placement. NOTHING about the rock itself or the features of it limits your placement-distance. And you OBVIOUSLY reach as far as you can to reduce the amount of drilling you have to do!

Three: you can find this or that picture of somebody doing "something like" what we're bashing on Pelut for, such as the short reaches between placements. But, as in the case of those pics of Mark on Intifada, that will involve very short sections of natural climbing, and with good reason (as I've explained above). What I decry about Pelut's placement-distance on "Look Out" is that the WHOLE "route" is drilled up with VERY short reaches! And, because it's NOTHING but drilling, he COULD have extended the placements much farther apart. It's like he just didn't care HOW MANY holes he was drilling, and he drilled so many to "sew it up" to reduce even the minimal risk.

So, there is no double standard here. Drilling is VERY different from natural climbing, because you are not even TRYING to conform to what the rock presents. You are just doing TO the rock whatever you feel like doing. So, when Pelut drills an ENTIRE route as a hole-ladder, one thing we can legitimately "bash on" about it is that he COULD have drilled 1/3 as many holes as he did... if he would only have been willing to get higher in his aiders. Nothing about your waving around pics of Mark TOUCHES any of these points.

Drilling a hole-ladder is not "climbing" anyway, because CLIMBING is about taking whatever risks are necessary to conform to what the ROCK PRESENTS to you! If you are not even trying to conform to what the rock presents, then you are NOT climbing! So, on the FA of "Look Out," Pelut was NOT even CLIMBING. And there is no double standard in saying that!

You can then respond that on this or that climb, others have also drilled. And you'll point out Intifada as an example, where Beyer employed very heavy-handed tactics to do the FA. (And, by the way, Steve, Mark and I did not drill any holes deeper to use angles in them. The angle holes are Beyers, as my pics show.)

I've very publicly bashed on Beyer for his tactics on Intifada, as have many others on this very thread. NOBODY here is giving Beyer a "pass" just because he's American. And there's no double standard. We ALL hate heavy-handed tactics, and we bash on them when we discover them. And, just as I reported what I found on the SA of "Look Out," I reported what we found on the SA of Intifada. NO double standard in the "bashing" that's gone on.

But, you go on to claim that I myself employ a double standard. How dare I drill on El Cap and then bash on Pelut for drilling on "Look Out?" So your argument goes.

Okay, regarding my own FAs, your trying to compare granite routes to sandstone routes is like comparing apples and giraffes! Both have DNA, and that's about as far as that comparison can go. There are two main issues here....

First, sustainability matters! On a proper FA you should be keeping subsequent ascents foremost in mind! You should constantly be thinking, "Is what I'm doing here going to screw the next ascent team? Are they going to have to do additional drilling to get past this section? Am I leaving something here that can be followed by a competent part with standard gear without a ton of additional drilling?"

Second, RISK matters! Climbing is ABOUT taking the risks the ROCK demands that you take. And REAL CLIMBING is about embracing that RISK in order to ascend. RISK is what makes climbing something different from hiking and gymnastics.

So, with those two principles in mind, let's again revisit your claims about my inconsistency to bash on Pelut after I've done something like Winds of Change.

First, it should be noted that "enhancing" micro-hook placements is NOT universally accepted. There are MANY (as I would call them) "purists" (perhaps even on this very thread) that would "bash" on me for enhancing hooks on Winds of Change. Many climbers consider even "enhancing" to be nothing but "drilling," and they would state that I just drilled a "bolt ladder" up Winds of Change.

However, there is a very legitimate reason that reflects NO double standard, why I have gotten very, very little "bashing" for "enhancing" on Winds of Change. And that reason really explicates the HUGE difference between such tactics and what Pelut did on "Look Out." So, let's compare them, shall we?

Like Wings of Steel, Winds of Change ascends a less-than-vertical slab covered with micro-flakes. As Mark and I demonstrated (and has now been confirmed by a very credible SA), such features can be used entirely without enhancement, resulting in a sustainable and risky route that conforms in decent style with what the ROCK presents.

However, exactly how you "play" that risk can go two ways. You can do NO enhancing of the tiny flakes, in which case you can never "run it out" very, very far; the flakes that are usable entirely without enhancement are not continuous, so full-on holes must be drilled to put the sequences of flakes together. The resulting climb is still ABOUT what the rock presents. The drilling simply links features, and the climb is ABOUT the hooking!

Alternatively, you could go the direction with the hooking I did on Winds of Change. On that route, my goal was to "run it out" FAR more than we could on Wings of Steel, drilling far fewer full-on holes into the rock in order to link the sequences of flakes. That meant "enhancing" the flakes in a way we had not done before. So, very tiny "enhancements" meant fewer bolts/rivets.

These "enhancements" are not (to my mind, and to the minds of many) full-on "holes" because they BARELY "penetrate" the surface of the rock. They simply make an existing flake "good enough" to work to keep the run-out going. You are still using EXISTING features of the ROCK, and the goal is STILL to CONFORM to what the rock presents and embrace the risk that such conformity entails.

The point is that there two basic approaches to drilling on an FA. 1) Drill in such a way as to do as little rock damage as possible, while keeping the risks of conformity to the features of the rock as high as possible; 2) Drill to reduce risk by reducing usage of the actual features, thereby increasing net rock damage in order to make the climb easier for you.

Winds of Change followed the first principle. "Look Out" followed the second principle.

As has been amply demonstrated at this point, my FAs are sustainable and repeatable without additional drilling. My FAs conform to what the rock presents. They are ABOUT the features of the rock, and they embrace the risks entailed by what the rock presents. I don't "drill a route down to my level," and I'm quite willing to back off of an FA that I think is actually drill-reliant.

But we have to be even MORE CAREFUL on sandstone!

On sandstone, you have to be even MUCH more careful about the principle of sustainability!!! You have to be even MORE sensitive to the long-term effect your actions are going to have. You have to pay even closer attention to how what you leave behind CAN be used by subsequent ascent parties.

What Pelut did on "Look Out" was ABOUT the drilling! There is NO LINE there to follow at all. And he drilled for virtually EVERY placement. This was not drilling to "link together" existing features! And his drilling wasn't even arguably-legitimate "enhancements" of existing features (many, including climbing's greatest, have "enhanced" existing features).

No, something like 80% of Pelut's drilled placements have NO NATURAL FEATURE to "attach to" in ANY sense! The entire "route" is just manufactured! My retro-fitting his useless holes with rivets/bolts just ACKNOWLEDGES the FACT of what that whole "route" really is. It is a hole-ladder, not "climbing," and NOT a "route."

And Pelut took no real risk on "Look Out," even though he THOUGHT he did! One thing we hate about his placement-distance is that we KNOW what it means: It means that he "sewed it up" to REDUCE the fall danger. You even admit this when you talk about how close together his pecker placements are in the video clip! You KNOW, as do we, that "sewing it up" reduces risk!

It's one thing to "sew it up" if you are a beginner and using CLEAN aid tactics, so that your "sewing it up" doesn't damage the rock! But it's a totally different thing to "sew it up" with HOLES, and then think to yourself and spray to the whole world that you are taking great risks, and even NAME your route "Look Out! DANGER!!!"

That's why I renamed the route: "Look Out! Weak Sauce!" Danger is the furthest thing from that "route!"

Since you are determined to draw contrasts between my FAs and Pelut's, and because I do think it's legitimate for you/Pelut to accuse me of having a double standard as I judged "Look Out," I'm answering you forthrightly on that very point.

For you to claim that my drilling on Winds of Change and Pelut's drilling on "Look Out" are the same thing is a completely unsustainable argument. It's a legitimate FORM of argument. It just doesn't work in this case.

I've done Pelut's route now, and I have reported precisely about what I found there. So, let's continue the comparison. Now, let Pelut do one of my routes. Let him do either Wings of Steel or Winds of Change. Both routes can be repeated without additional drilling (IF he is willing to top-step his aiders and be willing to risk LONG falls down a slab). Both routes HAVE been repeated without additional drilling. And both routes demonstrate how I "play the game" when it comes to the use of the drill during attempts to sustain risk in accordance with what the ROCK presents.

Pelut will find in BOTH cases that the routes are ABOUT natural features rather than ABOUT drilling. He will find in BOTH cases that the routes follow a natural line of features and that BOTH routes require you to take significant risks in order to conform yourself to what the ROCK presents. Neither route can reasonably be called a "hole ladder." Perhaps Pelut would learn something from such an ascent. And then neither he nor you would be trying to make comparisons that do not work.

Finally, on the subject of learning something: I have talked about how different the desert rock is to something like El Cap granite. So, let me be VERY CLEAR on this point.

I have a deep humility when it comes to desert rock! I love how Clint Eastwood, with his wonderfully menacing voice, says: "A man's GOT to know his limitations." And that line has rung in my ears through the decades of my climbing "career." Here's what that means to me....

I believe that I am more than "merely competent" when it comes to aid climbing. Particularly on granite, I know some things that few do. And I'm willing to take risks that few are. I know how to "play the game" with the best of them... on GRANITE. But I DO NOT believe that that competency fully extends to desert rock!

I believe that I can REPEAT any EXISTING desert aid climb in as good as or better than the style in which it was put up. But that does NOT mean that I feel competent to PUT UP new desert aid climbs, and I have not yet done a desert FA.

Why???

Because I simply don't have the necessary confidence that I know ALL the tricks to PUT UP a top-quality route by contemporary standards. I mean, I can look at what somebody else did and think, "Oh, yeah, I get it. Yeah, I can place and stand on that." Or even, "Okay, but I can reach further here and do a bit better than the FA." But that confidence is a FAR CRY from having the confidence to think that I'm going to PUT UP a whole new line in top-quality form!!!

I have genuine respect for the current masters of the desert aid game, and it's great that we have some of them on this very thread, such as Paul and Jeremy. You can call this part "dik sucking" if you like, but what it REALLY is is that I acknowledge my BETTERS in many different contexts!

I've seen lines at the Fishers and nearby canyons that I think would be great to do, and I only live 5 1/2 hours away from that area. But I haven't done those routes because I'm not willing to even RISK botching them in the slightest.

Again, I can do a SUBSEQUENT ascent of anything. I'm quite willing to take the risks to conform to what the rock presents, and I'm competent enough at the aid game to FOLLOW what anybody else does on any medium. But I simply don't feel that I'm enough of a master on desert rock to do FAs on it.

Do you GET the point, Rivet hanger? I have great confidence in one arena. But I know my limitations, and I have respect for the sport (what REAL climbing IS) and for those more competent than me in another arena.

By contrast, since you are determined to compare me and Pelut, what Pelut did was this: He came over here to do just some-subsequent-ascent of a route (Intifada) of which he had not even bothered to find out the (long!) history. So, he did that route in IGNORANCE... and then he drilled even on that route! He looked at the tactics he saw on that route and thereby believed that he understood TACTICS in general (wow... WRONG!!!). He then employed even MORE HEAVY-HANDED tactics on the FA of "Look Out," taking little risk and CONFORMING himself to NOTHING. He then spewed to the WORLD about how bad-ass this "route" was, claiming that this was the hardest thing EVER done in HISTORY! And in so doing, he even DISPLAYED his ignorance by basing his (ridiculous) rating on the rating of the FA of Intifada, when that rating didn't stand up to even the first subsequent inspection of the route!

So, let's contrast....

His HUBRIS is amazing, and I don't share it!

His TACTICS are despicable, and I have never employed tactics even remotely comparable!

His "route" is no line at all, and I have never done anything like it!

His willingness to take real risks is pathetic, and I have spend my whole life as a climber taking risks!

His DESIRE to conform to what the rock presents appears to be non-existent, while I have always climbed with THIS being of paramount importance.

And his inability to recognize when he is attempting to operate beyond his competency is EPIC, and I don't share that ignorance either.

So, you should just GIVE UP with the "double-standard" argument. You've tried it. It's fine that you've tried it. But it DOES NOT WORK, my friend. I repeat, you've hitched your cart to the wrong horse. If you have any intellectual honestly, you'll be looking to unhitch.
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
Now, let's get to cases....

A 3/8-inch, drilled bashie, basically a big bat-head.
A 3/8-inch, drilled bashie, basically a big bat-head.
Credit: madboIter1

As the caption says, this is basically a big bat-head. Notice the double cables. This is a bat-head pounded in on top of another bat-head. And it's so bomber that it couldn't even be jerked out! There's no risk here... this is just a bolt!

Now, let's put that placement in its bigger context....

The next pic in the sequence, showing that bashie in context.
The next pic in the sequence, showing that bashie in context.
Credit: madboIter1

Now we see that this bashie is just part of a line of holes, with the next hole not even 24-inches above the first bashie.

Notice the STATE of that next hole! That mess isn't usable. The edges are totally blown-out from having the resident bashie jerked out of it. On soft sandstone, jerking out bashies like that almost always just blows the hole out, as we see here. The only way to make a mess like that work would be to re-drill it.

However, fortunately for me, in this particular case, I was able to get past the blown-out hole, because Pelut was sewing it up, as the next pic shows....

All three holes in sequence.
All three holes in sequence.
Credit: madboIter1

Pulling back even a bit more, we can now clearly see three holes in proper relation to each other. Notice that there isn't two-feet between any of them. And two of the three are these big bat-heads that are so bomber they couldn't even be jerked out.

So, I was able to completely bypass the middle hole (useless as it is) because Pelut drilled THREE holes in must closer proximity to each other than I would have drilled two!

A damaged cable on a buried bashie.
A damaged cable on a buried bashie.
Credit: madboIter1

And it's not like Pelut wasn't TRYING to extract these "precarious" placements. MOST of them were jerked out, blowing open the holes upon exit. And many just could not be extracted! Here we see one that was starting to have cable damage from attempted extraction. Notice how BURIED this thing is!!! And Pelut thinks that a line of these things, planted ever 18 to 24 inches apart, is A5 and harder.

A trenched "head."
A trenched "head."
Credit: madboIter1

Here is just one example of a "trenched head" employed by the FA party. This isn't even what we would call a "head." This is just another giant bashie in a "slot" instead of a straight-in hole.

On the FA team's original topo, you'll note some weird symbols that look like "spoons" sticking out of the "cracks" in places. Pelut actually denoted his "bat-heads" with this symbol. So, he thought that there was some significant difference between placements like this one just above, which he did not denote on the topo, compared to the "bat-heads" like I show further above, which he did denote on the topo.

I have yet to understand the thinking in differentiating between "mini bolts," "bat-heads," and the scads and scads of other full-on drilling, such as this last pic shows.
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
Now a bit more, with some contrast....

Cleaning P1 on the SA.
Cleaning P1 on the SA.
Credit: madboIter1

On the section of the first pitch that I retro-fitted with rivets, notice that my placements are more than six feet apart. This is on the same rock at the same angle.

The lighter-colored rock surrounding the rivets is because "sheets" of friable layers flake off as you start to drill. As this happens, you have to "get down" to actual "rock" before you even end up with a "hole" rather than just a flare. The discoloration fades pretty quickly in that environment.

Bypassing bashie with pecker.
Bypassing bashie with pecker.
Credit: madboIter1

I did this sort of thing many, many times. This was just a particularly ironic case of it, which warranted a pic. Here you see that a tiny and very short natural seam took a small pecker. And RIGHT NEXT to a deeply-drilled bashie! Of course, my pecker could not be BURIED into the rock by ANY amount of pounding, which is probably why Pelut didn't imagine to use something like this.

Pecker next to trench.
Pecker next to trench.
Credit: madboIter1

If you look closely, you can see that just above the pecker is a blown-out trench. Again, we have a very tiny, short, shallow seam here, which takes a pecker tip. I considered such a pecker very good, being in about half-way. This is a small-sized pecker, but... how much metal do you need in the wall when this is supposed to be a "body weight" climb???

Pecker IN a trench.
Pecker IN a trench.
Credit: madboIter1

And, in another ironic instance, here is a small pecker tip IN a trench. Again, you can see a very thin, short seam that would take a good pecker... IF it's not over-driven and thereby ruined! And when I removed this pecker, it left just a tiny, thin slot where the blade had been. My placement could be reused many, many times (with like sensitivity to the soft rock) with NO need to use the drill in the slightest!

Next... a bit more discussion of the infamous "hook anchor."
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Sep 21, 2012 - 06:28pm PT
Id go with a small jack hammer- groove in a nice locker jam crack bout fifteen inches deep with little tapers for cam placements go it will go clean in the future.;-)
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
The "hook anchor" as it really is.
The "hook anchor" as it really is.
Credit: madboIter1

A number of things should be noted from this pic.

First, that hook ledge is much more sloped than any pic angle can really show. So, to solve that problem, the FA team simply drilled DEEP holes for the hook tips to sit in. At first the ledge was so covered by mud that I couldn't find where the "hook anchor" had been. I spent over one day on the "clean" doing excavations to discover the story.

After clearing away all the mud, I couldn't see how the hooks had worked. So, I started lightly running my fingers over the ledge in the "right places" considering the "throw" of most claws. I began to feel slight dimples, which I then took the tip of a baby angle to "excavate" a bit more. Immediately the holes began appearing.

The soft mud in the holes contrasted dramatically with the surrounding solid rock, so it was very easy to find the holes once you figured out where to look.

They are deep. I didn't even dig them out all the way, but hook tips are IN the rock rather than ON the rock.

Next, notice the DEEPLY drilled holes fore and aft of the "hook anchor."

Now, Rivet Hanger suggests that I drilled those holes (or drilled them deeper) to discredit Pelut. I have two responses.

First, I didn't need to do ANYTHING to discredit Pelut. Unless somebody is going to try to float the insane idea that I drilled ALL those holes just to discredit Pelut, he discredited himself just fine without any "help" from me. And his own videos show him drilling those holes. So: FAIL!

Second, if I was going to drill those holes deeper, then why didn't I drill them ALL the way, so that the angles would go in to the eye? If my goal was to "discredit Pelut," angles to the eye would be much more dramatic than what I actually found there.

Finally, as a totally separate point, I don't lie. I have been more forthcoming about the details of my ascents than was even in my best interests to be. The idea that I'm lying about this ascent is just poppycock.

Now, in the upper hole, the one just above the "hook anchor," we've all seen in the videos/pics from the FA team that they placed a bashie there. However, I've searched and searched, and challenge anybody to post up a pic showing that lower hole, the one RIGHT below the "hook anchor."

Notice in the vids that the "panning" stops before going "too far" to the right. Notice that EVERY pic is angled such that that lower placement cannot be seen (although we do see a rack of gear hanging from something). No pic or vid sequence I can find shows the WHOLE anchor WITH that placement.

I don't know WHAT the FA team was putting into these holes AS the ascent was actually taking place. I'm not accusing them of anything in particular. ALL I know, and can demonstrate, is that MANY of the "bashie holes" were very, very deep... in many cases deep enough to take bomber angles!

The "hook anchor" was totally unnecessary, being nowhere near a full pitch out. And a really good natural anchor can be had fifty feet higher, where I anchored. So, the "hook anchor" was a short-pitch gimmick TO get the supposed "death-anchor" (that wasn't in any case) TO sustain the ridiculous rating.

Of special note on this point is that the placement of the "hook anchor" threw the entire anchoring sequence off, so that the FA repeatedly anchored in sub-optimal spots just because that's where one of their (short) pitches "ended," which is because everything "sequenced" at that point FROM the position of the "hook anchor."

I just ignored their anchor sequence and set up anchors where they make the most sense. Of course, in many cases, that meant doing full-length pitches.

Well, that's as much as I can MAKE some time to do at this point.

Enjoy!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Sep 21, 2012 - 06:48pm PT
You sure picked a pile of sh#t upon which to make a statement, eh?

Dayum.

DMT
klaus

Big Wall climber
Pacif*#ka
Sep 21, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
Stupid Ameri...


I mean stoopid Spanyards
Captain...or Skully

climber
Sep 22, 2012 - 01:16am PT
Haha.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Sep 22, 2012 - 01:30am PT
Just stoopid PERIOD. Doesn't matter what bizarro aid-planet you hail from.

I generally refrain from commenting on any route I haven't laid eyes on in person but the photos are pretty clear. To the depths of my core I just don't "get" this "route". I refuse to call this breed of vertical progression "climbing" .

Drilling a hole-ladder is not "climbing" anyway, because CLIMBING is about taking whatever risks are necessary to conform to what the ROCK PRESENTS to you! If you are not even trying to conform to what the rock presents, then you are NOT climbing!


^^^ Pretty much hits the bashie on the head.


This thread rocks BTW. Carry on.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 22, 2012 - 01:41am PT
This is totally a function of the sponsorship whore syndrome.
People who climb just to climb don't do sh!t like this.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 22, 2012 - 06:59am PT
Rivet-

Just look at the pictures above! LOOK AT THEM!

Credit: Da_Dweeb

Please address and give an explanation pertaining to the content of Jensen's photographs, outside of "prejudice" or "Richard Jensen's a douchebag". I would very much like to know what is defensible about this.
BlackSpider

Ice climber
Sep 22, 2012 - 07:40am PT
WOW! Those pictures are just something else. What a disgraceful mess the FA was. If they were just going to drill straight up and were trying to manufacture a rating, why not just use bathooks the entire way?
sethsquatch76

Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
Sep 22, 2012 - 11:34am PT
Like sands (mud) through an hour glass so are the days of our lives....
j-tree

Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
Sep 22, 2012 - 11:59am PT
I thought you were talking about the pictures mixing ponies with final fantasy.

C'mon Dweeb! Don't dilute the ponies message!
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 22, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
Where is Pere today? No reply sir?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 22, 2012 - 02:07pm PT
He emailed me that he's headed to the Facelift. Said to meet him in the Camp 4 parking lot.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 22, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
Damn... no where near there... maybe Anders will take him on :)

Pere nothing to say?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 22, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
Good point J-tree. I probably should stop posting while drunk. Fixed...

No Pere, though? Perhaps he finally made good on his promise to abscond from this thread...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Sep 23, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
Alrighty then... last pics. We'll start with some final gear pics.

It's just blank rock... soooo, why not "mini bolts" here instead of dr...
It's just blank rock... soooo, why not "mini bolts" here instead of drilled bashies???
Credit: madbolter1

This is even blanker than the section Pelut "mini-bolted," called "the wall." So, why drilled bashies here instead of mini bolts?

Oh, right, because THIS is an anchor. So it's just GOT to be "heroic" (read: idiotic). If you're going to drill massive holes like this, WHY not fill them with something sustainable (and safe, since THIS is just fake "difficulty")?

Moving on to the wooden peg tactic (in some of its various permutations)....

Sawed-off, splintered, wooden peg. The saw marks on the wall are still...
Sawed-off, splintered, wooden peg. The saw marks on the wall are still visible, two years after the FA!
Credit: madbolter1

With the saw marks still plainly visible on the wall 2 years after the FA, we see just one version of the wooden peg tactic Pelut used. Not sure what he did here, as there is no sign of a piton being driven in alongside. My guess is he slung it, because this one was BURIED (unlike some of them).

Wooden peg with soft-iron piton alongside. Note the good, small pecker...
Wooden peg with soft-iron piton alongside. Note the good, small pecker of mine just below.
Credit: madbolter1

The (I guess) typical tactic: Big hole, wooden peg, soft-iron piton. Wow... sporty! Note the excellent small pecker just below.

So, what were the "mini bolts?" Here's examples....

"Mini bolts"
"Mini bolts"
Credit: madbolter1

Close-up of "mini bolt."
Close-up of "mini bolt."
Credit: madbolter1

Okayyyy... my only question is: Why these here instead of drilled bashies? And the correlative question: Why drilled bashies on most of the blank rock instead of "mini bolts?"

Now to a couple of fun pics of my own placements....

Roller-nut in 2-dimensional flare.
Roller-nut in 2-dimensional flare.
Credit: madbolter1

Remember these? Ahh, my set of rollers is near and dear to my heart! These make great placements where nothing else will. I don't know what the story is with this hole. It looks drilled out, but not like any of their other holes. And its pretty flared in two dimensions. Locker roller placement, though.

Poor man's big-bro. LOL
Poor man's big-bro. LOL
Credit: madbolter1

Second-to-the-last pitch (A1/A2). It gets WIDE in spots, but turnbuckle to the rescue. LOL. Cheap, and infinitely adjustable, and perfect for wide and flared stuff like this. Look closely, and you can see the hole drilled into the back of the crack. More drill work on this pitch by the FA team, although it takes locker stoppers and cams almost the whole way.

Far below, note the red slings. Those are where the wedge/piton combo and my good pecker are.

Small pecker tip at the lip of a small roof.
Small pecker tip at the lip of a small roof.
Credit: madbolter1

By taking my own line near to but often not ON the FA line, I was able to bypass a lot of drilling by using small, discontinuous features like this one. That seam is really small, but it took 1/8-inch of a pecker tip. Can't tell by this pic, but it's steep/overhung through this part. Dangling from that tip was "fun" while looking at a 30-footer onto a couple of their "mini bolts."

I tried and tried to beat it in farther... must have hit it 151 times, but it just wouldn't go in any more (just kidding). :-)

Another little tip I got to work.
Another little tip I got to work.
Credit: madbolter1

Finally, another little tip I got to work in a small seam the FA team never saw. Of course, you can't make something this bottomed work by beating on it 52 times, and if you just blow out the surrounding rock, you get nothing! (Note the small flake-off next to it, even as gentle as I was!)

I'll end with just a few pics of the me and the summit....

Those "fishing glass" are highly recommended!
Those "fishing glass" are highly recommended!
Credit: madbolter1

Partway up (my numbers) P3. Those "fishing glasses" are the bomb for the Fishers. Wrap-around, polycarbonate lenses (polarized, of course), and the special touch for old farts: small "reading lenses" as sort of "bifocals" where you look down. Must-have for older eyes. :-)

From Titan summit.
From Titan summit.
Credit: madbolter1

What a gorgeous place! How anyone could come here with a heavy-handed mentality is beyond me!

On the top.
On the top.
Credit: madbolter1

Glad to be done with it! Wow, I'm getting old, and you can see why I don't grow a beard! Scary!!!
un de tants

climber
Sep 24, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
empezando primer largo,yo pase con anclas,...
empezando primer largo,yo pase con anclas,...
Credit: un de tants
ey gente,miraros tambien estas fotitos,estan chulas...
un de tants

climber
Sep 24, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
carai carai,que etica mas buena la de richi,dejar todo puesto y taladr...
carai carai,que etica mas buena la de richi,dejar todo puesto y taladrar para poner coopers,que interesante..asi esta el primer largo ahora despues de la repeticion...
Credit: un de tants
primer largo despues de pasar richi,quien taladra para poner cooper heads y dejarlos??
un de tants

climber
Sep 24, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
uumm,,carai con este richar con lo de puritano que va y mira por donde...
uumm,,carai con este richar con lo de puritano que va y mira por donde que agujeros para gantxear y poder colgar la hamaca a un metro del suelo,,eso si con dos bolts nose que por la noche se le arranque,claro,con uno solo es muy peligroso..
Credit: un de tants
un de tants

climber
Sep 24, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
mira pordonde el señor de la verdad ,el salvador de las torres se olvi...
mira pordonde el señor de la verdad ,el salvador de las torres se olvida de llevarse su basura...hay hay richi..mal muuuy mal hay que conservar el planeta
Credit: un de tants
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Sep 24, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
So, very tiny "enhancements" meant fewer bolts/rivets.

These "enhancements" are not (to my mind, and to the minds of many) full-on "holes" because they BARELY "penetrate" the surface of the rock. They simply make an existing flake "good enough" to work to keep the run-out going. You are still using EXISTING features of the ROCK, and the goal is STILL to CONFORM to what the rock presents and embrace the risk that such conformity entails.

I love how his sh#t is all huge and heinous and blown out and yours is all
"mini" bolts and "micro" enhancements.

Exactly how is micro "enhancing" conforming to what the rock gives you?

That's kinda like saying "Those whores gave it to the whole football team, but we only gave it to the running backs, and even then only the tip."

Dude, you're so pure.
un de tants

climber
Sep 24, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
uy mira richi,,cuidado las maderas fantasmas uuu ,,falta la sierra par...
uy mira richi,,cuidado las maderas fantasmas uuu ,,falta la sierra para cortarlas,,anda que guay eee??
Credit: un de tants
un de tants

climber
Sep 24, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
anda,mira tu por donde,una reunion sin chapas,mira que tienes poca vis...
anda,mira tu por donde,una reunion sin chapas,mira que tienes poca vista richi,tu la hiciste varios metros mas arriva con una cadenita y tres bolts mu muy largos,claro entiendo que no te gustara esta reunion,era un poco incomoda y dava un poco de yuyu sub
Credit: un de tants
un de tants

climber
Sep 24, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
miar tu por donde,otra reunion,segun tu muy mala,para mi genial,aaa cl...
miar tu por donde,otra reunion,segun tu muy mala,para mi genial,aaa claro que no tiene bolts,es verdad esta tambien te la saltaste..
Credit: un de tants
un de tants

climber
Sep 24, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
mira richi,..a esto se le llama falque a que mola?
mira richi,..a esto se le llama falque a que mola?
Credit: un de tants
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Sep 24, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
What's all that mean in English? No offense meant, my Spanish is spotty.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Sep 24, 2012 - 03:26pm PT
Bombproof belays?

I am bring wood spikes on my next FA.

un de tants

climber
Sep 24, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
mira otro modelito,este si que te puedes fiar ee,no le hace falta ning...
mira otro modelito,este si que te puedes fiar ee,no le hace falta ningun bolt al lado...
Credit: un de tants
wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
Sep 24, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
Hey Richard, just a question from a guy who does very little aid climbing these days. . Wouldn't a pink tricam work in your 2-D rollerball placement?

(I've done enough aid climbing in the Fishers to know that I don't want to go anywhere near a discussion that involves hooking on Cutler sandstone, but I always found the pink tricam to be incredibly helpful in the damaged, flared placements that are so common there.)
un de tants

climber
Sep 24, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
mira mira..trincheras,ala que guapo,no se yo creia que estava guay,y a...
mira mira..trincheras,ala que guapo,no se yo creia que estava guay,y ahora resulta que son trincheras,a las barricadas que viene richiii yujuuu que divertido,brutal
Credit: un de tants
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 24, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
Hey David.

That is WORSE than a bolt sweetheart.

THIS is what you don't seem to UNDERSTAND.

Keep posting pics that show you lack of understanding of aid climbing and complete disrespect for the history of desert aid climbing in the US.

Hack...stay in Spain to do that sh#t.

No more of that here Brother.

Jeremy Aslaksen
un de tants

climber
Sep 24, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
peazooo falque chaval,largo saliendo del hotel hilton,lo viste o le me...
peazooo falque chaval,largo saliendo del hotel hilton,lo viste o le metiste tambien un bolt??
Credit: un de tants
un de tants

climber
Sep 24, 2012 - 03:35pm PT
ups,perdon si puse dos rups,pero esque tenia miedo..perdon richi,esper...
ups,perdon si puse dos rups,pero esque tenia miedo..perdon richi,espero que tu no pusieras dos bolts...con uno te bastava
Credit: un de tants
un de tants

climber
Sep 24, 2012 - 03:38pm PT
este material te suena richi?te acuerdas que te dije que tenia cosas t...
este material te suena richi?te acuerdas que te dije que tenia cosas tuyas?si si este es el material que usas tu para subir...el bolt largo es el de pie de via
Credit: un de tants
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 24, 2012 - 03:38pm PT


Now that is just plain egotistical A1 bolt ladder destructo stupid.

The least you could have done is stepped up one rung from the bottom of your Six Steppers.

WEAK!

*Con cada foto que pones, dices todo sobre tus cojones.


Or should I say, total lack of.... COJONES!




*Translation: "With every photo you post, you say everything about your cojones"
un de tants

climber
Sep 24, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
primer paso de la via y ya tienes miedo richi??hay hay la edad...
primer paso de la via y ya tienes miedo richi??hay hay la edad...
Credit: un de tants
aqui ya quedaron claras tus intenciones de lo que ivas hacer,aun no havias ni empezado la ruta y ya estavas taladrando,almenos podias haver atado la cuerda a un arbol e intentar subir sin taladrar,y luego dios dira,pero no,tu nunca as creido en la ruta i as ido directamente a destruirla,porque tu eres el salvador de las torres,ahora entiendo los agujeros de intifada,seguro que los hiciste tu,,ves que facil es acusar sin tener pruevas??pues espera que aun tengo mas fotos..
un de tants

climber
Sep 24, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
a mi me dio miedo...
a mi me dio miedo...
Credit: un de tants
uy,perdon por no poder escribir en ingles pero es lo que tiene la incultura,pero a vosotros tampoco os sirve de nada hablar ingles porque veo que no me entendeis,no digo cojoneeess,,que sea inculto no quiere decir que sea mal educado,respetoo sobre todo respeto,tienes que entender que a mi tambien me a gustado esto de poner fotitos,esta chulo..perdon e coleguita si te e molestado,que no se altere nadie que aun no e terminado,despues ya os dejare enpaz para que os podais masturbar y haceros pajas mentales entre vosotros tranquis que ya casi termino..
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 24, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
Figures.... He's a Catalan!

Weak!!!


Had they been Andaluz's, this would have been a whole different aesthetic quality story with some Cojones to boot.

nada hablar ingles porque veo que no me entendeis,no digo cojoneeess,

Oh, yo te entiendio.
un de tants

climber
Sep 24, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
alomejor no te gusta esta foto richi,pero yo decidi subir asi,y tu no ...
alomejor no te gusta esta foto richi,pero yo decidi subir asi,y tu no lo respetaste ni te atreviste nisiquiera,y yo si veo una linia aqui...
Credit: un de tants
un de tants

climber
Sep 24, 2012 - 03:54pm PT
bueno ya casi termino que estoy ya cansado de tanta tonteria,solo vien...
bueno ya casi termino que estoy ya cansado de tanta tonteria,solo viendo esta foto del trabajo de richar creo que sobran las palabras
Credit: un de tants
neversummer

Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
Sep 24, 2012 - 03:54pm PT
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 24, 2012 - 03:58pm PT


Esta foto decir la verdad sobre tus cojones... No tienes ningunos!!!!






*Translation: This photo tells the truth about your cojones... you aint got none!!!!!

I counted 28 pieces of destruction in 20 feet?? C'mon on!!!!!
Norwegian

Trad climber
Placerville, California
Sep 24, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
i concur with the chief
your balls are underinflated.
rocket scientist

Trad climber
Logan, UT
Sep 24, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
Esta no es la escalada, esto es una vergüenza de mierda!
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 24, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
una vergüenza... period!


Hey, last time I saw this is a designated Wilderness Area. Hmmmmmm. A picture says tons.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 24, 2012 - 04:06pm PT
Your eyes are better than mine, I got to about 20 pieces and stopped counting. My initial impression was "I don't think I even own that many draws or biners"

EDIT: Holy smokes, I enlarged it and there are AT LEAST 28. That chick holding rope must be bored out of her mind.
un de tants

climber
Sep 24, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
weird science
weird science
Credit: un de tants
ey jeremy,no podia abandonar el foro sin antes decirte unas cuantas cosas.primero felicitarte por vuestra via realmente es muy bonita y disfrute mucho,todo mi respeto y admiracion hacia vosotros,pero creo que estas haciendo muy mal de juzgar a las personas sin conocerlas,por eso creo que tendrias que ir a repetir hot-parad ice y asi despues poder opinar con criterio propio y no por cosas que an visto otros ojos que no an sido los tuyos,es solo una opinion,me gustaria mucho que la repitieras y la graduaras y le pongas lo que tu creas conveniente,solo decirte que no se puede ser tan negativo,yo no tengo nada en contra de nadie,es mas no me gusta para nada la discusion ni el politiqueo,pero claro esta que richar se a pasado un poco tirando a mucho,contando muchas mentiras e inventandose su propia historia tu realmente despues de ver las fotos de los falques crees que llevavamos una sierra para cortarlas maderas??? porfavor,solo desde mi humilde posicion te puedo invitar a venir a escalar a nuestro pais,aqui no te faltara de nada,y asi podemos intercanviar cultura artificiera,asi que sin faltarte al respeto ni mucho menos cuidaros mucho y disfrutar la vida que esto de internet es para volverse locos,ahora entiendo muchas cosas,si necesitas qualquier cosa richi tiene mi mail,suerte
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 24, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
Or wooden wedges...or heads for trenching...

What a joke.

Hey Palmada...let's see some shots of Weird Science and let's see what you "enhanced/drilled/trenched" on the SA.

Waiting?
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 24, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
Your eyes are better than mine, I got to about 20 pieces and stopped counting. My initial impression was "I don't think I even own that many draws or biners"

The killer deal, he's only 1/5th done with the pitch. Holysheeeeeeeeeeeet!

No wonder he had to place a piece every 8"... he weighed at least 300 lbs alone with all that iron and aluminum.

Now had he had some cojones instead of baby frioles and knew wtf he was doing, never mind. We all know the truth as to this ignorant attention sponsored whore premise here.



Palmada el idiota!
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
Keep posting, David! More and more pics! You are making my case for me.

Biggest botch job in climbing history. And YES, I drilled all over your route. I did indeed, just as I have explained. I took your HOLE ladder and made it HONEST. And in the process I did it with FAR fewer holes and standing on many, many small placements that you never even saw.

Oh, and ALL the trenched heads on the first pitch were yours. I simply left the heads in place because the rock cannot sustain the trench-place-remove-retrench cycle. If you understood desert rock at all, you would know this.

But keep posting, because every video clip and pic you post just further demonstrates what you really did. Keep it coming!

Edit: I see in your last post you actually have the temerity to call me a liar. What a joke. Your own pictures demonstrate that I've told the truth about what a travesty you put up! Do you STILL claim A6+? Do you STILL claim "hardest aid route in the world?"
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Sep 24, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
I'll bet the Internet Spanish-English translators are a-buzzin' today!

masturbar y haceros pajas mentales

Man, that's some funny shiz.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 24, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
If you understood desert rock at all, you would know this.

Don't EVEN give him that much credit.


That post should obvious say something to this affect"


"If you understood anything about climbing at all, you would know this."

Palmada el idiota!
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2012 - 04:26pm PT
WBW... I actually tried a couple of tri-cams there. Pinkie was okay. I certainly would have stood on it. But the roller was better. It's tragic that nobody makes these anymore. I like 'em better than ball-nuts.

Chief, I stand corrected! :-)

David, wow... how long did it take you to find that one bottle? I thought we cleaned up pretty good, but you caught me! I am shamed. Of course, by definition you would not have known about the half-a-garbage-bag full of your dropped slings, bottles (found in that run-off area under the overhang), and dropped gear we "recovered" after your ascent. It's hard to find everything when you're cleaning up, that's for sure. But, you got me!
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 24, 2012 - 04:33pm PT
Holy smokes, I enlarged it and there are AT LEAST 28. That chick holding rope must be bored out of her mind.

She appears to be so frkn bored that she is choking herself. Take a looksee!


Or is that some sponsors new telecomunicator system she is using to speak to Palmada and tell him he has 180 feet of rope left.
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
To me the overarching point is that none of us is "perfectly pure" in any sense. But CLIMBERS are trying to conform to what the rock presents, and the tactics employed must demonstrate that. There are HUGE "gray areas" within the tactical game, evidenced by the long "ethical" discussions we have on the Taco. Some here would even advocate that ALL aid climbing must be "clean or nothing" (I, of course, disagree).

However, debating within the "gray areas" does NOT signify that there are NO clear-cut cases. Debating within the "gray areas" still constitutes debating about CLIMBING tactics.

What the FA team did on this route, however, was not even CLIMBING, and there was nothing "gray" about their tactics. Just because there is SOME "gray" in climbing ethics does not mean that this FA was "gray!"
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 24, 2012 - 05:22pm PT
this FA was "gray!"

More like completely spray shetster brown.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 24, 2012 - 05:51pm PT
This could only be the work of Juan de Fuca. We've been owned.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
Sep 24, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
what in the hell is going on here?


can somebody do a summary version.


There was an ascent of a new route? It was purported to be extremely difficult. More difficult than Intifada?

Richard did a subsequent ascent of this new route. His ascent was going to be a repeat, but instead there were so many bashies in drilled holes and non-reusable wooden dowels in drilled holes that 1) the route didn't seem to be that difficult, and 2) he elected to find the most minimal path up over the line showing, by example and photos what was happening up there. Not doing what he did would have probably subjected him to accusations of 'retreat' in the face of difficulty.

un de tant seems to be the FA author of this new route? But online translators do a terrible job getting the context right of his posts in Spanish.

Accordingly, I may have all this completely wrong. But am I getting close?



I'm assuming it's ok to comment on the laundry here since it's all hanging in the breeze.

As a bit of a choss-liker (not licker), this seems to have some import into what the style could be on desert or choss routes.

Pounding gear and drilling is done by most climbers, we're just settling on price, yes?

thanks in advance,
Munge




TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Sep 24, 2012 - 07:32pm PT
Sloppy seconds.

Don't forget the part about getting sloppy seconds. And the implications of actually doing the sloppy seconds.

It's just plain gross.
madboIter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
Pretty much nailed it, Munge. LOL... sloppy seconds ARE gross!
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 24, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
Hey David.

This is what we get from the translators....

starting debut, I go with anchors, ...

Hey people, look at you too these pics, are cool ...

carai carai that the highest ethical good Richi, leave everything set and drill to put coopers, interesting .. so long now that the first repetition after ...

long after passing first richi, who drilled to put cooper heads and leave??

Mr. pordonde look for truth, El Salvador towers forget to take your trash ... there are sooo bad .. bad richi must preserve the planet

u look richi,, uuu care ghosts woods,, missing the cut saw,, walk to cool eee??

to, look where you, a meeting without plates, see that you have little richi view, You made several feet arrives with a chain and three bolts mu very long, of course I understand you did not like this meeting was a bit awkward and yuyu dava some sub

Your miar where another meeting as a very bad, to my great, aaa clear that no bolts, is this also true of you jumped ..

richi look .. this is called Falque to cool?

watching another outfit, this if you can not trust ee, does not need any bolt next ...

look look .. trenches wing handsome, not cool estava I thought that, and now they are trenches, barricades next richiii yujuuu that funny, brutal

Falque peazooo kid, long out of the Hilton, you saw it or you also got yourself a bolt?

ups, sorry if I put two rups, but was afraid esque richi .. sorry, I hope your not to put two bolts ... one you bastava

this material sounds you richi? remember that I said that things had yours? whether if this is the material you use to upload your ... the longer the bolt floor via

first step of the way and now you're afraid richi?? there's age.

here because your intentions were clear what ive done, even havias not even started and already the route estavas drilling, at least you could haver rope tied to a tree and try to climb without drilling, and then God will say, but not, as you never i believed in the route as gone directly to destroy it, because you are the towers of El Salvador, now I understand intifada holes, you made sure your,, see how easy it is to accuse without evidence;?? because I have expected even more photos ....

I was afraid my ...

Oops, sorry for not being able to write in English but is it about ignorance, but you will not speak English is useless because I do not understand me, do not say cojoneeess, that is uneducated not mean it rude, respetoo ​​about respect, you have to understand that I too would have liked to put this pics, this cool buddy .. sorry and upset if you and that no one is disturbed and not yet finished, and after that I will leave enpaz podais will make you masturbate and mental straws among you tranquis that I'm almost done ..

You might not like this picture richi, but I decided to upload so, and you do not and you dared not even respetaste, and I if I see a linia here ...

well I'm almost done I'm already tired of such nonsense, just looking at this picture of the work of Richard I think words are unnecessary

Hey Jeremy, I could not leave the forum without a few cosas.primero say congratulations on your route is very nice and really enjoyed it, my respect and admiration for you, but I think we're doing very bad judge people without knowing them , so I think you would have to repeat parad hot-ice and so after a say in their own judgment and not seen other things that an eye was not an yours, is just an opinion, I would love that and repitieras the will graduate and you put what you think is suitable, just say that you can not be so negative, I have nothing against anyone, but I do not like it at all the discussion and politicking, but of course that is to richar a little on the last lot, telling many lies and making up your own story you really after seeing the photos of Falques llevavamos think a saw to cut wood??? please, just from my humble position I can invite you to come to our country to climb, here you will want for nothing, and so we can intercanviar artificiera culture, so no disrespect far much Take care and enjoy life in this Internet is to get crazy, now I understand many things, if you need anything Any mail richi has my luck


This pic says it all man.
alomejor no te gusta esta foto richi,pero yo decidi subir asi,y tu no ...
alomejor no te gusta esta foto richi,pero yo decidi subir asi,y tu no lo respetaste ni te atreviste nisiquiera,y yo si veo una linia aqui...
Credit: un de tants

I led my first aid pitch yesterday. Granted it was only a 5.7 crack i basically made a1, and solid granite but I placed 18 pieces over 30m or so. Basically one every 1.67m or 5.5feet.

That means that even if you are say 30 feet away from your belayer in this pic, and you have 28 pieces in, then there is one every 1.07feet!!! Which is even less than the 18 inches Richard said!!! How many of those are bashies dude!!!

(Google translated reply for Pelut)
Dirigí mi tono de primeros auxilios ayer. Pero reconozco que era sólo una grieta 5.7 i básicamente a1, y el granito sólido, pero yo puse 18 piezas más de 30 metros o menos. Básicamente uno cada 1,67 m o 5.5feet.

Esto significa que incluso si usted es decir 30 pies de distancia de su asegurador en esta foto, y tiene 28 piezas, entonces hay una cada 1.07feet! Lo que es aún inferior a los 18 centímetros, dijo Richard! ¿Cuántos de ellos son monedas de cobre?

Edit: is there a word for inches in spanish? ^^^^^^
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Sep 25, 2012 - 02:23am PT
Spanish:
La ética en la escalada en roca es bueno! Pero Pelut no es la escalada en roca!

English:
Ethics in rock climbing is good! But Pelut is not rock climbing!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 25, 2012 - 04:10am PT
David-

Voy a tratar de resolver este problema a usted de una manera respetuosa.

La ética culturales locales con respecto a la escalada involucrar como pocas modificaciones a la roca como sea posible. Grandes cantidades de modificación, martillar, taladrar, atornillar, serrar, cualquier cosa que daña la roca se debe evitar siempre que sea posible. Los escaladores se modifique la roca, a veces, para enlazar las funciones escalables que de otro modo no podrían alcanzar. Las fotografías que usted y Richard acondicionados están demostrando una gran cantidad de modificaciones y daños a la roca que no parece justificado o propósito - que es la razón más grande por qué mirar hacia fuera! ¡Peligro! Se considera que se hace en forma deficiente por muchos escaladores en este hilo.

También con respecto a la ética de rock local escalada, rutas culturales se consideran estar en baja forma, si no son repetibles por los partidos de ascenso en el futuro. En otras palabras, la inserción y después retirando las espigas de madera y similares no se hacen para una ruta sostenible para las partes de ascenso futuras. (Esta es una gran parte de por qué Jim Beyer fue desacreditado por sus tácticas de Intifada.) Esta es la razón por qué el segundo mayor mirada hacia fuera! ¡Peligro! Se considera que se hace en forma deficiente por muchos escaladores en este hilo.

Por último, al rock local escalada ética cultural, no es una buena idea para tratar de vender una ruta como A6. A6 se considera una "mítica" de calificación. Usted definitivamente no quieren promocionar una ruta como A6 + a menos que sea una subida muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy difícil . Las tácticas y técnicas de las fotografías de Look Out! ¡Peligro! mostrar No hablamos de una ruta que es casi lo suficientemente difícil de justificar incluso una calificación A5 por las normas culturales de Estados Unidos escalada.

¿Hay prejuicios contra los escaladores de España o catalán? Si, vamos por lo que he visto aquí, sí la hay. Desde algunos - pero no todos - de los escaladores en este hilo. Es lamentable y desafortunado que este prejuicio existe, sin embargo, esta no es la razón por la cual la mayoría de los escaladores en este tema desaprueba su ascenso. Una vez más, la razón principal es que viola la ética y las normas culturales de lo que constituye un buen primer ascenso a las Torres de Fisher.

Este hilo no es realmente una bomba de ego por parte de Richard Jensen - le informa de lo que encontró en su segundo ascenso. Él ha hecho un buen trabajo de documentar y fotografiar lo que encontró. Sus propias fotografías no son realmente demostrar nada diferente de lo que él informó.

Tal vez en este punto un buen enfoque sería la de expresar humildad y consultar con los escaladores en este foro acerca de cómo hacer una primera ascensión que no violan la ética y las normas culturales de las Torres de Fisher.

David, me gustaría conocer tu opinión sobre esta entrada si no te importa. Gracias.

Respetuosamente,
Jeff Schulze (AKA Coz)
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 25, 2012 - 04:11am PT
(The above post was a spanish translation of the following post:)

David-

I will try to address this issue to you in a respectful way.

The Fisher Tower cultural ethics regarding climbing involve as little modification to the rock as possible. Large amounts of modification, hammering, drilling, bolting, sawing, anything that damages the rock is to be avoided whenever possible. Climbers do modify the rock at times, to link up climbable features they otherwise would not be able to reach. The photographs you and Richard put up are demonstrating a great deal of modification and damage to the rock that does not seem warranted or purposeful – that is the largest reason why Look Out! Danger! is considered to be done in poor form by many climbers in this thread.

Also regarding local rock climbing cultural ethics, routes are considered to be in poor form if they are not repeatable by future ascent parties. In other words, inserting and then removing wooden dowels and the like does not make for a sustainable route for future ascent parties. (This is a large part of why Jim Beyer was discredited for his tactics on Intifada.) This is the second largest reason why Look Out! Danger! is considered to be done in poor form by many climbers in this thread.

Finally, by local rock climbing cultural ethics, it’s not a good idea to tout a route as A6. A6 is considered a “mythical” rating. You definitely do not want to tout a route as A6+ unless it is a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, VERY difficult climb. The tactics and techniques the photographs of Look Out! Danger! show do not speak of a route that is nearly difficult enough to justify even an A5 rating by US cultural climbing standards.

Is there prejudice against climbers from Spain or Catalan? Well going by what I’ve seen here, yes there is. From some - but not all - of the climbers in this thread. It is regrettable and unfortunate that this prejudice exists, however this is not the reason why the majority of climbers in this thread disapprove of your climb. Again, the primary reason is that it violates the cultural ethics and standards of what constitutes a good First Ascent on the Fisher Towers.

This thread is not really an ego pump on the part of Richard Jensen - he is reporting what he found on his second ascent. He has done a thorough job of documenting and photographing what he found. Your own photographs aren’t really demonstrating anything different from what he reported.

Perhaps at this point a good approach would be to express humility and consult with climbers on this forum about how to do a first ascent that would not violate the cultural ethics and standards of the Fisher Towers.

David, I would like to hear your thoughts on this post if you wouldn’t mind. Thank you.

Respectfully,
Jeff Schulze (AKA Coz)
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 25, 2012 - 04:12am PT
(And just to be on the safe side, here's a translation in French Canadian:)

JE SUIS PUISSANT! J'ai une lueur vous ne pouvez pas le voir, un cœur gros comme la lune - aussi chaud que l'eau du bain! Nous sommes super-héros, ami! Nous n'avons pas eu le temps d'être charmant! Les bottes du mal sont faites pour marcher! Nous observons la situation dans son ensemble, l'ami! Nous savons que le score! Nous sommes un service public, l'homme! Non garçons glamour! Pas capitaines d'industrie! Gardez votre argent vulgaires, car nous sommes un SANDWICH justice! Pas de garnitures nécessaires! SUPERTOPIANS DE SUPERTOPO, NE vous attrapez ma dérive!

DO. VOUS. DIG!?!?!?!?!
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 25, 2012 - 07:44am PT
Wow!

You spent three days climbing and when you come back... You find out that again everything seems a matter of nationality.
I've given my opinion and seeing the sad attitude of Jeremy and Richy despite the havoc shown in Pelut's photos (do you all really support a retrobolting since the 1st meter of the route and give any kind of credibility to someone who was there alone?) I just want to translate Pelut's comments. By the way, could you please show a little bit of respect and shut up your despective comments?

Here we go:

empezando primer largo,yo pase con anclas,... - Beginning the first pitch, I passed with anchors...

carai carai,que etica mas buena la de richi,dejar todo puesto y taladrar para poner coopers,que interesante..asi esta el primer largo ahora despues de la repeticion... - Interesting! What an ethics the Richy's one, he leaves everything in place and drills to place coppers, interesting. That's how stays the first pitch after SA...

uumm,,carai con este richar con lo de puritano que va y mira por donde que agujeros para gantxear y poder colgar la hamaca a un metro del suelo,,eso si con dos bolts nose que por la noche se le arranque,claro,con uno solo es muy peligroso.. - Mmmm, how puritain is Richard, what a holes to hook and could hang the portaledge 1 meter over the floor with two bolts because perhaps at night one bolt pops out and with just a single bolt is very dangerous...

mira pordonde el señor de la verdad ,el salvador de las torres se olvida de llevarse su basura...hay hay richi..mal muuuy mal hay que conservar el planeta - Surprise, surprise, the Lord of the truth, Towers's savior forgets to take the rubbish away. Very bad Richy, we must protect the planet.

uy mira richi,,cuidado las maderas fantasmas uuu ,,falta la sierra para cortarlas,,anda que guay eee?? - Watch Richy, the ghost wood, it lacks the handsaw to cut'em, how exciting, right?

anda,mira tu por donde,una reunion sin chapas,mira que tienes poca vista richi,tu la hiciste varios metros mas arriva con una cadenita y tres bolts mu muy largos,claro entiendo que no te gustara esta reunion,era un poco incomoda y dava un poco de yuyu sub - Surprise, surprise, a belay without bolts, what's wrong with your sight? You belayed some meter upper with a chain and thre long, long bolts. Of course I understand that you don't like this belay, was a little bit uncomfortable and a bit scary

miar tu por donde,otra reunion,segun tu muy mala,para mi genial,aaa claro que no tiene bolts,es verdad esta tambien te la saltaste.. - Oh surprise, another belay, very bad according to you but perfect to me. Oh, of course, it doesn't have bolts. It's true, you also went passed it away.

mira richi,..a esto se le llama falque a que mola? - Look Richy, people calls it wedge. Nice, true?
//
mira otro modelito,este si que te puedes fiar ee,no le hace falta ningun bolt al lado...// - Look another type. You can trust in this, no need for a bold nearby.
//
mira mira..trincheras,ala que guapo,no se yo creia que estava guay,y ahora resulta que son trincheras,a las barricadas que viene richiii yujuuu que divertido,brutal// - Look, look, trenches, don't know, I thought it was ok, but they are trenches indeed. To barricades, that Richy comes!
//
peazooo falque chaval,largo saliendo del hotel hilton,lo viste o le metiste tambien un bolt??// - Big wedge, dude, leaving Hilton Hotel. You saw it or you alse placed a bolt?
//
ups,perdon si puse dos rups,pero esque tenia miedo..perdon richi,espero que tu no pusieras dos bolts...con uno te bastava// - Oh sorry, I placed two rurps, but I was affraid. Sorry Richy, I hope you didn't place two bolts... one was enough.

este material te suena richi?te acuerdas que te dije que tenia cosas tuyas?si si este es el material que usas tu para subir...el bolt largo es el de pie de via - This gear sound familiar to you, Richy? Do you remember I said to you I has something yours? This is the gear you use to climb, don't you? The long bolt was on the floor.

aqui ya quedaron claras tus intenciones de lo que ivas hacer,aun no havias ni empezado la ruta y ya estavas taladrando,almenos podias haver atado la cuerda a un arbol e intentar subir sin taladrar,y luego dios dira,pero no,tu nunca as creido en la ruta i as ido directamente a destruirla,porque tu eres el salvador de las torres,ahora entiendo los agujeros de intifada,seguro que los hiciste tu,,ves que facil es acusar sin tener pruevas??pues espera que aun tengo mas fotos.. - Your intention of what you were about to do were very clear. You didn't even begin the route and you were yet drilling. At least you could have tied the rope at a tree and try to climb withot drilling and see what's up. But no, you,ve never believed on the route and you've went directly to destroy it because you are the Towers guardian. Now I understand the holes on Intifada, I'm sure you drilled them. How easy is accusing without having evidences? But wait, I still have more photos...
//
uy,perdon por no poder escribir en ingles pero es lo que tiene la incultura,pero a vosotros tampoco os sirve de nada hablar ingles porque veo que no me entendeis,no digo cojoneeess,,que sea inculto no quiere decir que sea mal educado,respetoo sobre todo respeto,tienes que entender que a mi tambien me a gustado esto de poner fotitos,esta chulo..perdon e coleguita si te e molestado,que no se altere nadie que aun no e terminado,despues ya os dejare enpaz para que os podais masturbar y haceros pajas mentales entre vosotros tranquis que ya casi termino..// - I cannot write in English, sorry, I'm an uneducated, but it doesn't seems much useful to you because I see that you do not understand me neither. And I do not say cojones, to be uneducated doest not mean rude. Respect, specially respect. You should understand that I also love to put photos, it's funny. Sorry if that bothers you, I'm haven't finished. After I will leave you in peace because you could masturbate and jerk off one each other.
//
alomejor no te gusta esta foto richi,pero yo decidi subir asi,y tu no lo respetaste ni te atreviste nisiquiera,y yo si veo una linia aqui...// - Perhaps you don't like this photo Richy, but that's the way I decided to go up and you didn't respected at all and you didn't even dare. I do see a line here...

bueno ya casi termino que estoy ya cansado de tanta tonteria,solo viendo esta foto del trabajo de richar creo que sobran las palabras - Well, I almost finish, I'm fed up of so stupidness, just seeing this photo of Richard's job is enough eloquent.
//
ey jeremy,no podia abandonar el foro sin antes decirte unas cuantas cosas.primero felicitarte por vuestra via realmente es muy bonita y disfrute mucho,todo mi respeto y admiracion hacia vosotros,pero creo que estas haciendo muy mal de juzgar a las personas sin conocerlas,por eso creo que tendrias que ir a repetir hot-parad ice y asi despues poder opinar con criterio propio y no por cosas que an visto otros ojos que no an sido los tuyos,es solo una opinion,me gustaria mucho que la repitieras y la graduaras y le pongas lo que tu creas conveniente,solo decirte que no se puede ser tan negativo,yo no tengo nada en contra de nadie,es mas no me gusta para nada la discusion ni el politiqueo,pero claro esta que richar se a pasado un poco tirando a mucho,contando muchas mentiras e inventandose su propia historia tu realmente despues de ver las fotos de los falques crees que llevavamos una sierra para cortarlas maderas??? porfavor,solo desde mi humilde posicion te puedo invitar a venir a escalar a nuestro pais,aqui no te faltara de nada,y asi podemos intercanviar cultura artificiera,asi que sin faltarte al respeto ni mucho menos cuidaros mucho y disfrutar la vida que esto de internet es para volverse locos,ahora entiendo muchas cosas,si necesitas qualquier cosa richi tiene mi mail,suerte// - Hey Jeremy, I couldn't leave supertopo without saying you some words. Fisrt of all, I congratulate you for your route, in which I enjoyed a lot. All my respect and admiration to you, but I think you are doing very bad when judging people without knowing them. That's why I think you should do the SA of "Hot parad-ice" and like this, judging for yourself and not through other's eyes. It's just and opinion, but I'd like you to repeat it and rate it. I think that you shouldn't be so negative, I'm not against anybody and I don't even like discussions and political things, but it's clear that Richard has gone too far, lieing and inventing his own stories. After seeing the photos, do you really think we bring a handsaw to cut the wood? I'd would be very pleased to invite you to climb in our country and change some aid climbing knowledges. I don't want to be disrespectful to you, just wish you be well and enjoy live, that internet is a crazy thing, now I understand a lot of things. Whatever you need, Richy has my e-mail. Luck.








raymond phule

climber
Sep 25, 2012 - 08:05am PT

do you all really support a retrobolting since the 1st meter of the route
Hard to say because Richard was soloing and thus needed a belay at the bottom. I have no idea if there where any other alternative for a rope solo belay there.

and give any kind of credibility to someone who was there alone?) I just want to translate Pelut's comments. By the way, could you please show a little bit of respect and shut up your despective comments?


despite the havoc shown in Pelut's photos

So photos look pretty consistent with Richard's claims except maybe the belay pics. Drilled placements filled with crap that is not going to last.

Do you still not understand the american ethic that drilled holes should be filled with rivets or bolts and not bashis or wooden pegs stacked with pins?
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 25, 2012 - 09:16am PT
Etica.... que etica? La unica etica que existe aqui en esta ruta es la tornillo de banco de la ego y dinero.



Translation:

Ethics....what ethics? The only ethics that exists on this route are the vise of ego, fame and money.




A6+ my ass! This piece of shet line is nothing more than an A1 drilled, wood dowel gear infested atrocity ladder. Nothing more. Pathetic.


I truly hope that no one ever suggest or submits this and prints it as an established route in any future guidebook. Ever!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 25, 2012 - 09:39am PT
Rivet-

could you please show a little bit of respect

respect

You keep using that word.

I do not think it means what you think it means.
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 25, 2012 - 10:26am PT
Surely not! In my country, when someone bolts other's route, the whole community condemns this kind of action whether the pretext is true or not. And seeing the photos it seems to me that Jensen didn't ever wanted to climb the route, just discredit David and Ester (as I said, probably for his recently downrated WOS. I can't wait anymore for the film, by the way!), something that is very clear when creating a web page to claim the truth of his solo SA and when not even answering Pelut's appeals although he had internet connection (hiding the truth?). Jensen's coppers and bolts still remain on the route (2 coppers, 1 bolt and so on. Maybe fear?), and if you don't understand that is not the same to hang on a line of peckers/coppers/aluheads than on a line of bolts, there's nothing else to discuss.
But I understand your obstinacy having in account that the person who perhaps will become your President declares in public that does not understand why the windows of an airplane cannot be opened...

But I'm really disappointed with Jeremy. Pelut shows him his respect and congratulates him for Weird Science and however, he keeps in this nasty attitude and does not even put in question Jensen's version (do you support his actions Jeremy? That's the question! You can condemn Pelut's trenching (that at the end hasn't been so much), but Beyer did the same and you weren't even a tenth so critic with him after repeating World's End. American prejudice?). I hope Paul will be more reasonable...
rick d

climber
ol pueblo, az
Sep 25, 2012 - 10:35am PT
rivet-

Do you understand that if you drill a 1/4" (6mm) hole- you have touched the drill to rock? Y/N?

Do you understand that for DECADES the standard ethic is "if you drill it, fill it" which means you put a bolt (or rivet) in a hole? Y/N?

You do understand that hole counts have been "de rigueur" for 25 years (or better)? Y/N?

...and last, do you understand that Jim Beyer (or anyone else) drilling bashies (trenching) was and is considered bad form? Y/N?


Thus, if you are a sponsored climber, traveling the globe to get photos and stories printed and you propose you have created the hardest aid climb in the world someone will go have a look. When a second ascent party reports a shiat show of holes, wooden pegs, ripped out trenched heads etc -anyone will get grief from the community. Beyer 'reported' there were no holes and A.4+ belays on Intifada. Well, Richy and Mark kinda have EVIDENCE that was not the case.

Back to a comment many overlooked. Bob Shonerd intentionally went up on a wall without a drill or chisel or copperheads to do a route that would be completed without question. No belay?, just tie your other rope and lead 300 feet till you find one. Pelut et al took a drill and used it. He is a lame wannabe with no testicles. Case closed.
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 25, 2012 - 10:47am PT
Jim Beyer wasn't criticized for bashing. This fact was just mentioned for Aslaksen on his report of World's end... And of course, nobody said he didn't know to climb and nobody insulted him.
Pelut is not a professional climber, you should be informed before giving your opinion.
Pelut's photos shows how Jensen also used bashies filled with coppers, and still stay there, by the way...
Can you show us a publication where Pelut claims that Look out is the hardest aid climbing route in the world? Or you just can show a publication where he had been directly inteviewed and claims that it just is a A6+ proposal that should be confirmed? HAve you even seen a post of mine on this thred talking about A6/A6+?
Come on, any critics on Jensen and the whole sh#t of America on Pelut. Do you understand what I mean?
raymond phule

climber
Sep 25, 2012 - 10:50am PT

You can condemn Pelut's trenching, but Beyer did the same and you weren't even a tenth so critic with it.

Do you just make up things? Beyer climbed intifada 88. Did Jeremy write something about the route at that time or do you base this on comments or lack of comments on supertopo 20+ years later?


Surely not! In my country, when someone bolts other's route, the whole community condemns this kind of action whether the pretext is true or not
and you do not see the similarity with the fact that it seems like all locals is against Pelut in this case? What about following the local ethics? This climb was not climbed in your country.

What I miss from both you and Pelut is some comments in regard to the extensive drilling by the FA team on the climb. Did he drill a lot of holes for cooperheads and wooden pegs?


raymond phule

climber
Sep 25, 2012 - 10:56am PT

Jim Beyer wasn't criticized for bashing. This fact was just mentioned for Aslaksen on his report of World's end... And of course, nobody said he didn't know to climb and nobody insulted him.

Do you just read the last couple of pages on supertopo and think that you know everything about american climbing history?

I knew a long time before this thread and before Look out was climbed that Beyer trenched heads, drilled unnecessary holes, lied about climbs, chopped bolts on elcap etc and that he was criticize for all those things.
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 25, 2012 - 11:00am PT
World's End thread Raymond...
Do you see any critics there?
And keep on not condemning Jensen's action, at least everybody arround (yes, the world does not begin and end in the USA) will see this inbreding attitude...
raymond phule

climber
Sep 25, 2012 - 11:13am PT

World's End thread Raymond...
Do you see any critics there?
Yes, I saw critics there. Didn't you? What is your point?


Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 25, 2012 - 11:24am PT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1790372/Hard-Aid-Climbing-Trenched-Heads-or-Bolts-Rivets

RH, this might be helpful reading and help you understand why people are SO UPSET about this.

Jeremy
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 25, 2012 - 11:37am PT
I agree with you Jeremy, but I do not see any fierce critics on your report of World's End. Just because Beyer is Beyer and Pelut is a completely unknown Spaniard (you don't even know Catalonia although you probably know Barcelona), what gives you the right to spill sh#t on him and Ester without any attempt to inform about'em. This is what I mean.
And in addition, i do not see any critics on Jensen's style and his more than probable lies on Look out. You've posted a photo of Pelut's video of this route where he is placing a copper, but some seconds after everybody can clearly see the "mythic" hook belay where no angles are seen, and however nobody posted that frame. I do understand that the style used in Look out is not the best (as wasn't Intifada or World's End), but I'd like to see how you put in words the mess that Jensen commited and in the route (a thing that you can report in your coming trip to Towers) and at least being critic with Pelut at the same level that with beyer and other people drilling little bashies (and I'm not justifying this acts). This is the point for me...
crunch

Social climber
CO
Sep 25, 2012 - 11:39am PT
Da Dweeb:

This thread is not really an ego pump on the part of Richard Jensen - he is reporting what he found on his second ascent. He has done a thorough job of documenting and photographing what he found. Your own photographs aren’t really demonstrating anything different from what he reported.

Not exactly true. What's up with this one, which appear to be a new bolt, four feet off the ground. The caption says: primer paso de la via y ya tienes miedo richi?? hay hay la edad.... Google translates this to:

first step of the way and now you're afraid richi?? There is no age

Did you really place a bolt five feet off the ground, Richard?

Palmada/Esther photo of a bolt. Ha ha ha. Why laughing?
Palmada/Esther photo of a bolt. Ha ha ha. Why laughing?
Credit: crunch
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 25, 2012 - 11:47am PT
RH,

I have been to Catalonia multiple times.

Barcelona, Tarragona, Lleida, Girona...

This has nothing to do with anybody being Spanish or Catalan...and you know it.

So why don't we drop that crap and get back to the point at hand.

Jeremy
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 25, 2012 - 11:52am PT
Credit: Rivet hanger
I'm talking about this... A Jensen's lie? Where is the angle?
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 25, 2012 - 11:56am PT
So to me the point is do you support Jensen?
By the way, we'll be very pleased to meet you (and Pelut&Ester even offers you all his hospitality) in your next trip to Catalonia...
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 25, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
RH,

Do I support what Jensen did?

No.



Do I support what Pelut and Ester did?

No.



Thanks for the kind offer...I hope to make it back to Catalonia!



Jeremy
rick d

climber
ol pueblo, az
Sep 25, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
Rivet-

In case you missed it, I wrote in this thread that Richard should have come down after seeing the crap on the first and second pitches. I, in no way, defend his continuation of the line. A line of worthless bolt hangers is just that. A monument to vanity. As is a line with worthless holes.

Jeremy and I did a new line 230' line with one hole on each pitch and two double bolt anchors this past saturday and sunday. I think we are grading it 5.7 A.0x (but that was in trainers and only one 12oz left from Sat 2100-Sun 1800.)

hole count
pitch 1, 1/2
pitch 2, 1/2

Pretty modest in my opinion.

Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 25, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
I'm serious, We'll be very pleased to contact to you Jeremy. And there's any sarcasm in these words, I'm serious. You have yet Pelut's e-mail, so just give the call.
rick d

climber
ol pueblo, az
Sep 25, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
I don't know when the angle appeared, but that circled item IS A DRILLED HOLE that should have had a legitimate bolt placed in it.
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 25, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
Right Rick, but we'll agree that deeping the hole to place an angle and then blaim others is not exactly the same... Its pretty nasty. That's what I mean. Perhaps you can make the difference, but is not the majority in this thread...
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 25, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
And seeing the photos it seems to me that Jensen didn't ever wanted to climb the route, just discredit David and Ester
Rivet, three things:
1) What do you mean by "not climbing the climb"? That he intended to do a hatchet job? What a preposterous and wholly unsupported accusation. In his 3+ decades of climbing he has never done a climb in which he disrespected the route. Yes, Richard did fully expect to find that the A6+ rating was a hoax. But to say his intent was to hatchet the route and the FA team is a farce.
2) Look Out! Danger! employed incredible and appalling tactics that one would have expected from a route in the 1930's, things all but unknown in modern times (e.g., wood dowels in holes which were then sawed off by the FA). This route is so far off the map that trying to correlate it to Intifada or any other route is misguided and useless. Which leads to point #3:
3) The purpose you seem to have is not to meaningfully examine the climb or the climbers, but to stir the pot with a predetermined agenda. Perhaps you will have something rational with which to respond, but if not, don't expect a further response from me.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 25, 2012 - 12:21pm PT

Right Rick, but we'll agree that deeping the hole to place an angle and then blaim others is not exactly the same... Its pretty nasty.

I believe that Jensen said that the hole was deep and that an angle would fit in the hole. Not that an angle necessary where placed there.
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 25, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
Mark, neither for me, all the answers you are looking for have been answered yet since my point of view in older posts... beginning for 1930's tactics that even Beyer and others widely used in the 80's.
Rivet hanger

Trad climber
Barcelona
Sep 25, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
My god, come one Raymond!
No way with people like you. Hope your next president will know why is not allowed to open the window of an airplane...
raymond phule

climber
Sep 25, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
President? My country don't even have a president.

So what was so ridiculous with my comment? Jensen didn't necessary know how every hole where used. Do you know that Pelut didn't drill a deep hole and put in a copperhead or two in the hole?

I don't know what he put in that hole but I do not think that Pelut has made any comments in regard to those holes or has he?

BlackSpider

Ice climber
Sep 25, 2012 - 12:41pm PT
Rivet Hanger's posts in this thread have been almost universally delusional, in particular that doozy about how Jensen (possibly the single most-slandered climber in the history of this site) has never been criticized as much as Pelut.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 25, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
Pere,

you still dont seem to understand. Even if you are right and richard is lying and he did drill the hole deeper (not that i am saying he did) , he never should have had to because it should have had a bolt or rivet in it! Using wood and pins damages the rock and makes the route impossible to repeat without drilling more.

Also please dont clean up Pelut's insults. I know he said bastard at one point.

Edit Just because you are standing on crap all day doesnt make it hard. It's just crap!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Sep 25, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
rick d: A monument to vanity

Careful with such psychological speculations. The "vanity" sword is one known to universally cut the hand of the one wielding it. Better to talk about objective facts rather than motivational speculations.

I'll explain more in an upcoming post about my actual motivations in continuing the ascent.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Sep 25, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Sep 25, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
RH: you keep trying to float the idea that I'm lying and that I even drilled holes out deeper.

Ridiculous on both fronts. I don't think any climber has endured more scrutiny and speculation (spanning decades) than I have. What's come out of all that is that I don't lie about my climbing. On everything I have ever discussed regarding climbing, I've been more forthcoming (and in DETAIL) than anybody. And everything I've said has been vindicated over the years.

We all "lie" in all sorts of contexts. But I don't "lie" about climbing. Period.

Second, what you need to finally "get" is that I've been entirely forthcoming about the drilling I did (a LOT of it)! I didn't drill out any of Pelut's holes because they were already that deep when I found them, so I was able to put angles in some of those holes just as I found them.

I have been CLEAR that I don't know what Pelut put into those holes. Some of the pics of the hole ABOVE the "hook belay" clearly indicate that some sort of bashie-arrangement was in that hole (multiples?) But that UPPER hole is not the one of interest.

YOU circled that UPPER hole in your pic, but it's not the really interesting one (it's interesting, but not SO much so).

The really interesting one is the one just BELOW the "hook anchor." And that one is NOT visible in the pic you supplied.

There is a pic up-thread that shows a rack of gear hanging from some placement where that hole would be. There is SOMETHING there, but we can't see what it is. Perhaps it IS just another bashie-arrangement. Perhaps not.

ALL I KNOW is that both of those holes, fore and aft of the "hook anchor" are DEEPLY drilled.

And I found this same story all the way up the route. MOST of the holes are WIDE but fairly shallow. They got blown out when Pelut jerked out the bashies that had been in them.

But SOME of the holes, sprinkled all the way up the route, are DEEPLY drilled. I don't know why some were that deep, but it's just an objective fact that they were.

And I KNOW that the "hook anchor" was DEEPLY drilled. The hooks are deeply drilled, and the holes fore and aft are deeply drilled. That was no "death anchor!"

As has been stated just above, it really doesn't matter WHAT I did to get up the route. Even if the whole climbing community comes to share "rick d's" perspective that I SHOULD have stopped after the first pitch, it changes nothing about what Pelut did. You can't get Pelut off the hook by bashing on ME. The facts of the FA are what they are. And the facts of the SA change nothing about the FA facts.

Finally, all your whining about how Pelut is getting bashed on is pretty lame. PELUT is the one who put up this travesty and called it A6+. HE is the one that based that absurd rating off of the LONG-debunked rating of Intifada, and he SHOULD have known that that ancient Intifada rating was laughable. And HE is the one that drilled hundreds and hundreds of holes up the Titan. So, he can face the music on all those points. Your whining about him having to face the music is pathetic.

Just stop it.
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Sep 25, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
Where are the PowerPoint graphics?

You need some sketches to elucidate your points. Lots of them.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Sep 25, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
Regarding the very first bolt I drilled....

raymond phule: Hard to say because Richard was soloing and thus needed a belay at the bottom. I have no idea if there where any other alternative for a rope solo belay there.

Pelut's picture of that first hole is extremely disingenuous, and he says, "Try anchoring to a tree."

What's really there is a long series of slabs (about 30-degree angle) for about 150 feet from the base of the wall. These increase in angle as they approach the base and become covered with scree and dirt. Small bushes are growing here and there in the dirt. Within 40 feet of the base the angle steepens considerably, and you can't easily get up it (it keeps sliding). And within the last 20 feet to the base is compacted aggregate at about a 60-degree angle. The only way you can get up that is "free climbing" on these embedded rocks (which often come loose).

In Pelut's pic it looks like he is just standing there. But he's not. What he's "standing on" is some hole left from a dislodge rock in this 60-degree slope of aggregate.

And there's no "tree" to anchor to. If anybody can produce a pic of a "tree" within 80-feet of the vertical section of the wall, I'll apologize profusely for that hole. There is no such tree.

What there ARE are these few small bushes growing out of the sloped dirt ramp. And I did try to anchor with these, even though they are 40-feet and more from the base of the wall.

I set up a couple of elaborate anchoring schemes using equalized large rocks and these few bushes. But when one pulled out easily as I was trying to get a sling around the base of it, I finally just gave up the whole approach.

I was solo and needed a ground anchor. Pelut had Esther standing at the START of where the dirt slope gets steep... 40 feet below the start of the route. And that partly explains the short first pitch to the "hook anchor."

A soloist can get no good ground anchor and has no belayer standing 40 feet lower.

So, yes, I did indeed place a single 1/2-inch bolt where the wall actually starts. I placed it low, so I could use it for upward pull (as a soloist has to think about). I placed it low enough that I couldn't use it to reach up and get the first placement. And I intentionally placed a sleeve-anchor, so that anybody that cares to can simply unscrew and remove it, filling the hole if they want.

I didn't remove and fill the hole because I wasn't hiding anything. I placed the bolt, so I left it there for all the world to see, which is my approach to climbing. I'm not hiding anything.

RH: You can debate that hole all you want, but you thereby miss the important points. This or that particular hole (mine or Pelut's) is not what's at issue here. I don't nit-pick this or that particular hole (well, with the "hook anchor" as an exception, because THAT's what that anchor is about). I wouldn't be bashing on Pelut's route if it just had "some" holes I was able to bypass.

Honestly, I'm not into dissing on some route just because it's not "perfect" or has "more drilling" than might please me. I don't think there IS any "perfect" route, and some of climbing's GRAND MASTERS have done tons of drilling, enhancing, chipping, trenching, and so forth.

Those tactics, in general, are frowned upon BECAUSE they can be abused! And I will certainly bash on a route in which those tactics are ABUSED.

I mean that if somebody trenches ONE head in a bottomed seam (and leaves the head in place) to get to the next natural placement, and this saves a full-on bolt, I would be inclined to applaud that decision. MANY others will disagree. That's fine. Such disagreements keep us ALL honest!

I repeat, my (and many other's) angst with Pelut's tactics is that this or that particular hole or trench were not "isolated" incidents with a clear tactical purpose! Pelut JUST DRILLED! He drilled EVERYTHING. Even those first few heads he points to in his pic of the start of the route are trenches HE drilled. I just left heads in the trenches (for re