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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 16, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
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So, I'm starting the SA of "Look Out! Danger!" in the Fisher Towers. I have spotty Internet, and I'm trying to keep a blog going about it: www.conclusivesystems.com/danger.
I'm most of the way up the first pitch, almost to the infamous hook anchor, as soon as I can figure out where it is (the "topo" is almost useless!). I'll report on what I find.
I can say this much already: This is the most contrived, manufactured, worthless "line" I have ever even heard of, much less seen. The FA team apparently couldn't even reach more than about 18 inches, because that's about as far between placements as I've seen so far. And virtually every placement is heavily drilled/trenched!
I mean, these guys were drilling big trenches for bashies when you could easily get past using Peckers in the mud seams (which I often did). They were drilling huge (over 1 inch in diameter) holes in blank rock and then (I finally figured out) filling them with some sort of weird euro-bashies. Then when they cleaned these, they just blew open the edges of the holes (because this sandy crap is so fragile), leaving worthless, flared holes you can't do anything with. In short, to "follow" this manufactured pile, you have to be constantly re-drilling the garbage they left behind.
And there is SO much drilling! Every 18 inches there's a hole... a BIG hole. And one of the guys brags on his topo: "Only 33 mini bolts were used for progression on pitches." Uhhh... yeah, right! There are more holes than that on the first pitch alone! I've taken to bypassing the giant, flared holes with full-on rivets, which are at least sustainable. And so much mud flows down this wall that within a few more years the eyesore holes in blank rock will be filled naturally.
I guess that these goofballs figure that you don't have to consider all the drilling and trenching at ALL, as long as you only count "mini bolts" as your definition of greatness.
I literally cannot express what an utter botch job this thing is shaping up to be. Totally contrived and utterly artificial "difficulty."
Oh, and about that. The first pitch is rated A5. Not! I'm being generous to call it A3, and that's only because of the difficulty in manufacturing placements to "follow" what they did as closely as possible. You can't pound a giant euro-bashie into a huge hole every 18 inches and call that A5! What a complete joke this thing is.
Well, I'll try to get online now and then to keep ya'll abreast of the SA of "possibly the world's hardest aid route" (as it's been called, lol). It's dangerous, no doubt. Basically anything at the Fishers is dangerous. You are literally climbing on mud. But the initial report is that this thing is the most contrived and utter botch job imaginable.
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mooch
Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
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May 16, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
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Off to FA this fun little tower
....A7 nailing????
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wildone
climber
EP
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May 17, 2012 - 11:32am PT
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Take some pics of the damage!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 17, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
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A3? A5? No way. Fattrad told me he didn't find anything harder than 5.7 when he freed it last month.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 17, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
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Spaniards???
Huh?
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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May 17, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
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Could be watered down, but
Body Water Lost Symptoms:
1% Few symptoms or signs of any thirst present; however, there is a marked reduction in VO2 max.
2% Beginning to feel thirsty; loss of endurance capacity and appetite.
3% Dry mouth; performance impaired.
4% Increased effort for exercise, impatience, apathy, vague discomfort, loss of appetite.
5% Difficulty concentrating, increased pulse and breathing, slowing of pace.
6-7% Further impairment of temperature regulation, higher pulse and breathing, flushed skin, sleepiness, tingling, stumbling, headache.
8-9% Dizziness, labored breathing, mental confusion, further weakness.
10% Muscle spasms, loss of balance, swelling of tongue.
11% Heat Exhaustion, delirium, stroke, difficulty swallowing; death can occur.
Dehydration can cause any or all of the following:
• Increased heart rate (beats per minute)
• Increased lactate acid in muscles (increased blood acidity)
• Increased body temperature
• Decreased strength
• Any of the following medical conditions: heat cramping, heat exhaustion & heat stroke
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Plaidman
Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
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May 17, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
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For perspective maybe Desert Towers by Steve "Crusher" Bartlett should be mandatory reading material before even venturing out to the Fisher Towers.
http://stores.sharpendbooks.com/-strse-13/Desert-Towers-%28call-to/Detail.bok
The style that these guys are doing according to your report so far is definitely not in keeping with the ethic of the area. The area is very fragile and you can really hose up a route out there. It would be nice if it could have been done cleaner even if it is aid. And 6+ doesn't even exist. I think that discussion has already been spoken of here on the TACO. Reading that Desert Towers book really goes to show what bad asses those guys were BITD. We have is so easy. So many tricks now it seems almost like cheating. But in their defense sandstone can be a scary medium. I much prefer granite. Although I think I hear Wingate sandstone towers calling to me. Hell according to Layton Kor a pinnacle is worth 5 Big Walls!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 17, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
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What goes around comes around. Now Layton says that a good piss is worth five pinnacles.
So they were Spaniards? You mean like from Spanish Fork?
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Plaidman
Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
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May 17, 2012 - 08:09pm PT
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Layton says that a good piss is worth five pinnacles.
Nice!
No from Spain. Which would make them .......... Spainards.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 17, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
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So,.. it was Spanish f*#ks not Spanish Forkers.
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Gene
climber
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May 17, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
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A6 - It's all about the shoes the FA team wore and Google Translate.
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
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LOL, Russ, off route indeed. I was thinking the same thing at times so far on the first pitch. But, it only gets hard to follow when the mud flows obscure the huge bashie holes, so that it's not clear where to go.
Pics will be coming. I'm going to take tons when I clean. I'm 30 feet from the hook belay. Brutal hot! And I'm trying to turn the first pitch into something sustainable, which takes a lot of time. I don't have this sort of time to devote to the whole route, so I'm not sure how this is going to play out. But I'll get the first few pitches anyway.
So, the first pitch is this....
About 30 feet from the start, you have a small dihedral that takes peckers in places. Otherwise it's blank, and the FA team trenched big heads. I could get past several of their trenches with peckers.
After that dihedral ends, they just got straight to drilling. It just kills me that one of the guys bragged about how few "mini bolts" in the route. Literally every 18 to 24 inches there is a big hole drilled into blank "rock," and they are almost identical. These guys were custom drilling for a particular bashie, and there are a few that they couldn't even jerk out, so I'll get pics of those. I've seen at least 30 of those holes so far on the pitch, and there are a bunch more leading up to the horizontal thing I think is where they put the hook belay.
Now these bashies had to be pretty good, because the ones they could jerk out blew out the edges of the holes, and there are quite a few still fixed with cable damage. So, even "A5" for the first pitch is a complete joke. Basically these goofballs just drilled a bashie ladder. And I can see more such holes above the horizontal ledge, so it's just many more such "placements" until you finally get into another small dihedral about 100 feet above where I am now. Of course, there will be more trenched heads in that. It's like these guys never heard of peckers and the like.
Ok, so now, what to do? The current holes are useless. "Fixing" them to take the same bashies again will take a lot of time, and that assumes that you HAVE such bashies. Probably a euro-only item. And that's a stupid way to go, because each place/remove cycle just makes things worse.
Eventually these holes are going to take angle tips. But place/remove destroys those also, so people will just drill them deeper. Then it's a ladder of drilled angles.
So, for most of the pitch I've been drilling my own rivets beside the line of holes. Mud flows are starting to cover the holes already, so they will disappear eventually, and a like of rivets is at least HONEST about what's really there! It's basically a hole ladder of some sort. The only question is what's going to go into those holes and how sustainable the result will be.
Don't scream, but I'm using those Zamac rivets. They stay good for decades because they do not corrode (witness: holding Ammon's falls after 30 years). Also, you can't use the typical machine bolt rivet as you do in good rock, because this crap is just compressed sand. It's even worse "rcck" than Cottentail Tower. So, you need something that will go into a fairly shallow hole and then expand in place, like a Zamac does.
Of course, you could go with full-on bolts, but then it's not a rivet ladder, and there's no time to replace all these holes with full-on bolts. So, Zamacs are a decent compromise, they'll be solid for decades, and they are still rivets.
Also, I'm getting more than five feet between placements, instead of this 18 to 24 inch ridiculousness. It's like these guys never heard of second loops... sometimes not even third loops! But, if you sew it up with bashies, you can CLAIM A5 and even A6+ (!!!), while making it quite safe for yourself. You're simply not going to rip a string of drilled bashies that are 18 inches apart!
So, there will be far fewer holes when I'm done (and the mud does its inevitable work), and what will remain will be repeatable.
Problem is that I really have no interest in doing this for 1000 feet. And looking up, all I can see are strings of these stupid bashie holes! It's not a worthwhile use of time to just drill basically a rivet ladder up the side of the Titan, and there's precious little natural features to work with. So, this is going to be one amazingly drilled pile, with nothing CLOSE to the hyped rating.
In short, I'm really torn. I want to finish this thing just to have done it, but the prospect of weeks of drilling in the heat just makes me gag! And the truth about this overhyped pile is already known. I will certainly get at least the first few pitches just to see if things continue this way. But after that, I don't know.
It's so frustrating. This "rock" simply won't sustain a "blank" route without it just becoming a rivet ladder. Intifada actually followed a line of natural features. There are almost none on this "line" at all. And the endless euro-bashies are just maddening. Well, we'll see how it goes higher up. Maybe there will be a bit more natural to work with. Crap! I can't believe how many of their holes I've gotten past already. At least five with peckers and at least five more with better spaced rivets.
Hype, all hype. Nothing more than a manufactured route DESIGNED to be an ego-pumping hype for "Palut's" climbing career.
Wow, you cannot BELIEVE the mud flows! I have silt in places you don't even want to know about! I've pulled down hundreds of pounds of mud... most of it going to the side of me. You can't even FIND the "rock" without major effort. Much worse than Cottentail!
Babbling now... must be the heat. I'll post pictures to the blog in a day or two.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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May 17, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
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WOW!!!
Climbing controversy, on-site posting of the epic, and moral-downfall of the embellishing Dagos!
WOW!
Interesting reading on the links posted too!
This thread is going for at least 500 posts.
We just need the Dagos or their friends on it too!
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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May 17, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
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Wow, sounds like a total joke to me. I can't wait for these pictures.
I'm with Jeremy, bail! Why even bother with the rest. Just take some photo evidence and save your hardware for something worthy.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 18, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
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You want pictures?
Here's a picture of you guys and whoever it is that has you so well hooked.
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Plaidman
Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
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May 18, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
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A-6 is a myth. And A-6+ must be in the land of unicorns and fairies.
Anything above A-3 is frightening.
Found this on one site. I think it is succinct and to the point:
"C6 or A6 does not exist, since the aid climbing scale was developed as discrete scale that is not open ended. Also, since C5 implies the death of both climber and belayer, a rating of C6 could not cause an increase in severity."
[quote]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_(climbing)#Aid_climbing[/quote]
Haven't we gone down this road of rating aid above A-5 and I think there was some discussion as to whether A-5 was even attainable. I wouldn't know as I am not stupid enough to try aid at that level. Like I said A-3 is red lining for me.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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May 18, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
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Arrrgh! I thought it was the real Madbolter. It was in fact the MadboIter1. Still, I think the rating by the FAs is a bit silly, don't you?
Despite the screen name, the posting matches up with the posts on the external blog. Copyrighted to a Mr. Richard Jenson
http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/
and who is deleting posts? was 30 earlier today and 27 as of this posting.
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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May 18, 2012 - 06:16pm PT
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hmmm, very interesting.
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Plaidman
Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
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May 18, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
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See how bored I am at work! I see.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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May 18, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
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Bwhaaaaaahaaaa!!!
Spanish battle armor!!
Look out!!! Aluminum hero at work....
All fatties too, at least use the #2's like any other self respecting
Chisel chump.
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Nate Ricklin
climber
San Diego
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May 18, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
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Yeah, it sounds lame so far, but...
Finish the route first, then talk sh#t about it. If you bail from it talking sh#t about it is lame.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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May 18, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
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It's all greek to me... trenched heads, etc.
But if Jeremy says it's lame(I choose to use the word "lame") I believe him, being a mud guy and all.
I read the Infestada link, interesting stuff...
A6? Not dead but super dead?
Aid climbers are already creepy enough... on mud?
¡No gracias!
Whassuuuup Jeremy!
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 19, 2012 - 12:00am PT
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Okay, finally some pics of the line of holes. See the latest post on the blog. Not great quality... just captures from my helmet cam. But they are clear enough to tell the tale. Once I get to the second anchor, I can rap and clean this pile. Then I'll whip out my Canon and do the job right. Then you'll see pics of trenched heads right next to perfectly good conventional gear, and there will be pics of euro-bashies right next to bombproof peckers.
Regarding "dissing on a route before completing it," I'm not "dissing" but merely reporting what I'm finding as I go (such are the wonders of modern technology, lol). You don't have to drink a whole gallon of milk to detect that it's sour. And what I'm finding so far is an entirely, completely manufactured route (even more so than "necessary"), done in abysmal style, wildly over-rated, and with no thought given to producing a sustainable/repeatable route. The "hardest" sections are perhaps A3, and even given a hook anchor (which is entirely contrived just to produce a rating), with the 18-inch spread on the bashies (some of which could not even be removed they are so bombproof), there is just no way that the FA team was looking at pulling the whole house down. "Harder than Intifada" not!
We all know that A6 is a mythical rating, but this route gets nowhere close to it! I've already done the "crux" of the route (according to the topo), and there's nothing proud here at all. This is nothing but a line of trenched heads and (mostly) bashie holes drilled into blankness.
Jeremy posted pics from the FA, which shows the same thing my pics show (and will show better when I clean the first two pitches).
Regardless of whether I continue, whether the thing ever gets a complete SA, or whether mud just obscures the whole mess over time, the myth of "possibly the world's hardest aid route" is already debunked. This thing didn't even knock on the door of A4, must less A5, and much, much less A6 (+).
I'll take a day off and then continue on. Much better pics to follow.
Jeremy, quit tempting me to bail, doggone it! :-)
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 19, 2012 - 12:53am PT
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Jeremy, you are a baaaad man!
:-)
Well, to bed. Wow, that shower was amazing. The first five minutes flow red. It's so hilarious... and felt so good after a week.
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BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
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May 19, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
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Look closely at the first photo.
There is a bolt that the blue lead line is tied into with a figure 8. 2 more down to the left at approx 8-o-clock. 2 more directly below the hook on the far right.
"Hook Anchor" is a hoax
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - May 19, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
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I'm about halfway up the second pitch. There are two places that could be the hook anchor, about ten feet apart, but both are just horizontal ledgy things in the middle of the line of bashie holes. No way to tell for sure which one of the two is "it," and they both look about the same.
Of course, I bypassed this "anchor" anyway, because it's just a gimmick, and I'm solo, so a hook anchor is useless to me anyway. Both pitches can be combined into about 185 feet, which is what I'm doing. And the way I reworked the line, the rope drag won't even be too bad.
NO bolt(s) at the hook anchor, though. I can say that for sure. At least, nothing is there now. Perhaps they bolted, pulled, and filled the hole(s). I can't say. But there's nothing there now. Honestly, I think these guys "designed" this thing for a rating. And that anchor was carefully positioned to BE the "death belay" (right where the bashie holes get closest together, btw), so these guys wanted to be "heroes" with that anchor. So, my guess is that they didn't bolt.
What they did instead was drill some of those "bashie" holes DEEP. Upcoming pics will show that I drove baby angles almost all the way into a couple of those holes. So, the supposed A5/A6 bit was a true hoax. Just where they were "heroes" is where they really went to drilling, and SOME of those holes are NOT just for bashies!
Long and short: "No bolts at belays," but pretty much any other imaginable tactic to dumb it down and ease it up was employed.
I plan to finish the second pitch tomorrow, then clean. Decent pics to follow.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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May 19, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
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From your description, yeah, I'd bail. It just doesn't sound fun. And I'm a guy that climbed that bolt ladder from Hell on the Kingfisher( it took 2 tries, at that...). Trenching heads is lame anywhere, but extra lame in the Fishers. Poor method, even if it works once.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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May 19, 2012 - 09:18pm PT
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I can't imagine it would be worth it to continue. I'd like to see photos of the drilled head placements though.
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Gagner
climber
Boulder
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May 19, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
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The desert is a special, and fragile place. Climbing on Wingate sandstone is relatively bomber most of the time, but it is still sandstone. The Cutler and Moenkopi sandstone found in the Fishers is a different story. You might be surprised what's climbable, especially with Peckers, but there's no excuse for trenching heads, or in this case digging what sounds to be huge hole in the rock to fill with aluminum.
I'm really disturbed by some of the BS that has gone on recently in the Fishers. It sets a poor precedent, dumbs down potential routes and damages beyond repair the rock, making as Richard above says, an unsustainable route.
As many of you know, Jeremy and I have done several FA's over the last several years in the Fishers, and we've strived to do them in the best possible, sustainable style. Earlier this spring we started a new route on the Oracle. Jeremy didn't drill at all on the first pitch. However the second pitch didn't pan out, and after drilling a short ladder, we determined that the route would requite a lot more drilling then we felt good about. We sucked it up and bailed rather than drill our way up the formation (hence why we ended up climbing World's End, with its trenched heads, since we had all our gear out there).
I would encourage anyone thinking about climbing new routes in the desert, and especially the Fisher Towers, to really think about what you are doing, the consequences for the rock, and the precedent it sets.
The Fisher Towers is a special, largely unregulated place. Let's all be conscious of our impacts here and really everywhere, and let's all strive to mitigate those impacts.
Paul
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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May 19, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
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Word.
There's only so much there. We could try not to fhuk it up too much.
Set the precedent honestly. Making the rock pay dearly can cost you, in the eventual...Probably will, too.
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miwuksurfer
Social climber
Mi-Wuk
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May 19, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
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We send them Chris Sharma and Spain sends us these guys?
I think we got chingado in this deal.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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May 20, 2012 - 12:26am PT
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This is interesting.
I didn't see any pics in the blog post though.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 20, 2012 - 12:43am PT
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Uh, are you guys really that stupid, or can you knott read?
This dude is NOT Richard Jensen. Can you not see the misspelling of the user name? [duh]
You have been trolled. I would have expected better from most of you.
Clearly, madboiter1 is knott Richard, because he is knott long-winded enough!
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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May 20, 2012 - 01:11am PT
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http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/
Copyright Richard Jensen.
It could be an elaborate troll, but after reading his Intifada debunking, I'm doubting it.
This "route" sounds like a $hitpile. And if it's a troll, count me as hooked.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 20, 2012 - 01:19am PT
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Very elaborate troll, and actually kind of well done, except his writing style doesn't match Richard's well enough.
Troll = madboIter1 has beaten you to Richard's blog, and lifted some of it over here. Pretty clever.
Of course, the reason one can be certain it's a troll is that there would be no reason whatsoever for Richard to assume a new identity, instead of staying with madbolter1.
This bastard is clever, I'll give him that. I would hate to be a fish when he's trolling his lures around, as he sharpens his hooks well.
Edit: Klaus, what appears to be real is Richard's blog. But do note the difference in the user name. As toluene*brainblow, you should be familiar with this tactic.
According to Richard's blog [thanks for the link, bergbryce] he feels the same way as you do [as do I] so let's wait until we hear from the real Richard Jensen, who will report his observations, and not this imposter.
At any rate, I have alerted Mark Smith, who is currently a little confused, but I think he will straighten us all out shortly. Kind of funny, really. I am snickering. I need a life. Badly. Get me up on the wall, pul-LEE-yuz!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 20, 2012 - 01:24am PT
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Yes, you could be right about that, too!
Gonna be in the ditch next week? We should do some O.E's or some cab.
Mark - did you get Richard on his cell yet? I am trying to imagine Richard's response[!]
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 20, 2012 - 01:28am PT
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Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!! Now we're really confused! Here is Mark Smith's email to me just now:
Clearly, madboiter1 is knott Richard, because he is knott long-winded enough!
Moreover, there is a dearth of ALL CAPS!
Pete, I don't know what to think. I just sent Richard a text about this. I know that he gets cell coverage even at the tower (Titan), but it's 11pm his time, so he's probably asleep. I think all we can do is hang out and wait for a response. If it's a troll, it's masterful. If not, what the heck is Richard doing posting under MADBOiTER! The bit about running red when he took a shower sounds like Richard. That's exactly what happened after we got off Cottontail about 20 yrs ago.
This troll is a real Richard aficionado, it would appear!
Pretty damn good troll if he's got Richard's own partner flummoxed!
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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May 20, 2012 - 06:55am PT
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Be safe up there, Richard. Looking forward to the pictures.
Edit: Also, my puny brain can't handle your multiple name variants.
Edit: Also, I'd bet Sweet Apple Acres that madboiter1 = madbolter1 <> madbolterI.
It's no troll.
Edit: It's a space station.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 20, 2012 - 11:19am PT
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Another thing I had forgotten - Richard is a practising Seventh Day Adventist. He observes the traditional O.T. sabbath from Friday sunset through Saturday sunset. He would knott climb on a Saturday, in the same way as he and Mark didn't climb on Saturday.
I don't know if he would be allowed to post on a Saturday, however. Doing so might cause him to go to heck.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 20, 2012 - 11:26am PT
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Does one go to heck in a handbasket?
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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May 20, 2012 - 08:53pm PT
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Hmm. Good point, Pete. I hadn't considered that.
The suspense builds...
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2012 - 09:05pm PT
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Well, I know that nothing I say with this screen name will be credible, but this IS Richard Jensen. I log in as normal, as I've done for years, and THIS is the account I'm saddled with. It's like something is very, very screwed up on that Taco's back end with my account! I've changed nothing, but now I get this slight variant of my former screen name. I don't know who to contact to address it, but it really is me.
Pete, you can tell because I just emailed you virtually the same thing from my conclusivesystems email account. So, you know that's for real. And I do have Internet in the evenings if I hike further out the train about 1/2 mile. So, most evenings I hike out and catch up on emails, post to the blog, and so forth. (Oh, and the blog is mine also.) I'm really baffled what's going on with my account, and I hope that somebody can alert the right people to connect my account up with my old screen name and past postings! VERY irritating indeed.
The pictures on the blog can be found in the "pictures here" gallery links on many of the postings. I'm about to post more, and tomorrow I'll have a bunch of the infamous hook anchor.
I combined the first two pitches and anchored about 30 feet below where they say to. Looking up that 30 feet, it's crumbly crap, and they tout another "bad belay" on their topo. Where I stopped, you can get multiple buried peckers, along with two of their buried bashies. It's the best series of placements I've seen so far, and a perfect anchor spot. It's about a 170-foot pitch, which is what these goofballs SHOULD have done in the first place. Instead, they intentionally broke things up as they did TO have the stupid hook anchor. AND, if you're just gonna drill all the way up the thing, why not just stop where makes sense and plant bolts for the anchor, even if you CAN'T get other good placements?
These nutjobs were WEAK in the pitches and then tried to be heroes at the BELAYS!!! SO, so stupid! And, given how things are turning out, I'm not even inclined to try to maintain their "no bolts at anchors" bit. Everything I've got is bombproof for a downward pull, but nothing good for an upward one. A nice, beefy, 1/2 x 4 1/2 inch five-piece with a rap-ring on it will serve a lot of purposes at the same time, AND it will last basically forever! If I do that sort of thing at each anchor, it should be possible to rap the route. Still just thinking.
Anyway, two pitches up, and the drilled/trenched crap continues!
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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May 20, 2012 - 09:34pm PT
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Hi Richard! Hope you're well up there!
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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May 20, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
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I did not find a madboIter Troll duplicate on this thread!
madboIter1 9 posts on ST starting on May 16th 2012. Then two posts in 2006.
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/view_forum.php?dcid=OzMzPDU4NiY,
First home was WallaWalla, WA, then Denver.
No other madbolt1 on the thread at the moment.
Did the troll delete, or is this the result of madbolter1 inhaling too much sand?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 20, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
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Well, how about that - madboIter1 really IS Richard Jensen!
The only way I can confirm this is because of the email he just sent me, which was in direct reply to the email I sent to him at his legit email address:
"This is really weird!!! I log in as normal, as I've done for years, and my user name comes up as madboLter1. Not as madbolter1."
Note from Pete: He really means his user name comes up as madboIter1. Perhaps it is hard to tell an I from an L on his portable device?
"I've changed nothing, so I have to assume that somebody at ST has screwed this up and is no longer properly linking my account with my past posts. I don't even know how to address this, and I sure can't deal with it now. But it's me, even though the screen name is screwed up.
Thanks for the heads-up, Pete, as always!!!"
Well, I'll be buggered. Certainly you can understand my confusion, when there was a previous imposter for Richard who was madbolterI. Thanks to rincon for the bump.
Da_Dweeb had figured it out, because he knows Richard. Thank frickin' goodness that crazy bastard left out the damn ponies! ;)
So Richard can *still* climb, eh? Not bad for an old fart. Hey Mark Smith, why aren't YOU still climbing too?!
Dang, now I gotta go back and read everything.
Note to our webmaster: any chance you can fix this? Has this happened to anyone else? Very strange.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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May 21, 2012 - 01:03am PT
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Hooraay! I will start up a Supertopo pony thread to celebrate! It will be okay because I'll put (OT) next to the thread title
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 21, 2012 - 02:19am PT
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Hey Mark Smith, why aren't YOU still climbing too?!
Mark Smith turned 50 rather recently. Is there climbing after 50?
Also, Mark Smith has the nasty problem of a real job, one that expects him to schedule multi-week trips in the summer, a time when Richard Jensen thinks the summer heat of Utah would be too much for his (Richard's) aging frame. (Seriously, I was invited, but declined.)
Hey, on another front, here's what I find as far as who MadBolter is:
madbolter1: the original handle for Richard Jensen
madboiter1: the new handle for Richard Jensen. (Based on a phone call I had with Richard tonight, the Taco seems to post some of Richard's stuff under one name, and some under the other. Richard has no control on which name will come up when he posts. Maybe Spurrier can help figure this out.)
madbolteri: a self-acknowledged troll mimicking madbolter1. The "i" is displayed in upper case, making it look like a "1".
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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May 21, 2012 - 03:31am PT
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Basically, the guy who is pretending to be OP Richard Jensen is in fact OP Richard Jensen.
He's trolled HIMSELF.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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May 21, 2012 - 11:13am PT
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Over 50 and a job... dang, that sucks!
;-)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 21, 2012 - 09:12pm PT
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Tada... I'm back as the real madbolter1. Don't know what happened. Same login, but now I'm back. Sorry for the confusion, but NOT, repeat (all caps) NOT my fault! OKAY?
LOL
Enough caps for y'all now?
Anyway, MANY new pics on the blog. First two pitches up and cleaned, and I took the time (solo) to set up for many pics and video clips to document all I've found. I've got peckers IN trenched head holes (good seams in the back... no need to trench). I've got bashies less than 18 inches apart. I've got DRILLED ANGLES fore and aft of the hook anchor. I've got very enhanced hook placements at the hook anchor. It goes on and on. Photo proof of one of the great botches in climbing history, and the lead goofball said, "The rating is not a proposal. This is harder than Intifada, which was A6. So, the route is A6+."
NOT "harder than Intifada," even with all the conniving to manufacture a rating! And Intifada wasn't considered A6 for well more than a decade before these guys did "Look Out! Danger!"
Looking up at the thing almost a year ago, I actually expected some seriously hard climbing... not A6, of course, but perhaps A5. I honestly can't believe the levels of absurdity these guys went to in order to manufacture a rating (and ego pump). And what they did to the rock would be unbelievable without the pics. Sad, so sad.
I'll go up another pitch (also rated A5) and see if the absurdity continues. I'm not committing yet to going further or bailing. I'm just taking this one day at a time.
Oh, and, PLEASE... no ponies! But thanks for the well-wishes.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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May 21, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
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HAHAHA! All right, bud. No ponies, I Pinkie Pie promise.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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May 21, 2012 - 09:43pm PT
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The FA are liars in the great tradition of Cesare Maestri.
those certainly look like drilled angles which equal bolts.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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May 22, 2012 - 09:01am PT
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bumpty
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 22, 2012 - 09:18am PT
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Weird shit
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 22, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
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Well, I'll continue for awhile to see if it gets any better. Thanks for the support, guys. This is one weird route indeed!
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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May 22, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
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How does anybody get excited about aiding up a dirt pile?
Any debauchery will melt away in a few years.
It's pretty existential that way.
Also, some part of me can't help but be suspicious that the FA team reasoned that the melting away of the route would cover the evidence that they had torn out their drilled placements. They could claim it was as hard as they liked - at the time that _they_ climbed the route.
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yo
climber
Mudcat Spire
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May 22, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
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If I had a nickel for every aid climbing thread Worrall came into and acted baffled about aid...
...I could could buy another beak!
Or maybe like a bigass cordalette, or another sticker for my helmet or something.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 22, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
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So Richard, you be up there tomorrow? Wednesday? I may be in a position to lend you moral support....
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 22, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
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If Kevin wasn't ocassionally baffled by aid I would worry about him. Of course, he has always been able to free climb where some might choose to aid.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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May 23, 2012 - 09:44am PT
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Next up ....
Followed by a mass hysteria shatting attack on their equipment.
It would be great to see some sweet climbing shots. Be safe Richard, have fun. That's a ballsy choice for routes regardless.....Wow.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 23, 2012 - 10:17am PT
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IF this ain't a TROLL
The Fischer Ski Towers over-all aid rating is A4.75. There is a complex formula involving the number of towers, the number of and frequency of deaths which are then fed into a computer and the results are printed, then shredded. They are shipped off to the Moab Dump. Where this shite all belongs.
The fact there are holes being gratuitously drilled into them will have no effect on them; they will end looking like that huge-ass turd in a few millennia anyway, so why not hurry the process?
Keep drilling, you bastards.
Kevin, let's fergit these apes and I'll buy you a Red Bull.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 23, 2012 - 08:13pm PT
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Yeah, I'll be leading tomorrow, Thursday. Load humping today.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 23, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
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Lots has happened in the last couple of weeks. I had to go home for a family reunion, but I'm back on the heap now, and about 3/4 of the way up it.
I've been finding new, exciting tactics by the FA team. It turns out that they were also drilling custom holes, pounding wooden pegs into them, then sawing the pegs off flush and driving them when they were done, rendering them useless. Pics of these on the blog.
At their "anchors," I'm finding typically two deeply-drilled bashies. If you're gonna just drill into blank rock, why not put something reasonable in the holes, like bolts at anchors? Oh, right, to keep the hole count down, and to be able to claim, "We placed no expansion bolts at anchors." Yeah, right. Retch, gag.
David Palmada, the FA team leader, left a comment on the site. Google Translate wasn't much help, but I gave him my email address, as it seems he wants to talk. That exchange, if it happens, should be very interesting.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Jun 23, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
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What blog?
Link please...
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hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
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Jun 23, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
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Maybe check out 'Not So Soft' over on Cotton Tail.
My friend (who did the FA about 15 years ago) and I went this past February and I lead the first pitch, but we bailed, alas. Time constraints and his motivation dwindled, understandably so, I was surprised he wanted to repeat a route he remembered as being hard and scary when he did the FA. (Those who have climbed there know, it seems like it's not really a place where one gets psyched to repeat hard routes).
The first pitch was awesome, great thin beaking, with spicy free climbing ~130-140 feet. When they drilled, they did the proper thing and filled it with 5-piece. I think there were 1 or 2 bolts to get off the ground to the feature, then its almost all beaking with a few cams. There were two bolts on the pitch, one I couldn't find, so I did a few scary ultra thin beaks. Embarrassingly, after I moved past the crux (what was the crux for me) I looked down and had knocked a plate of mud off to reveal the bolt that I couldn't find burried under the mud. Maybe..A3+ (maybe A4?), you know how it is, hard to tell when leading. I think by the 'fall potential' type Aid grade there were some A4 falls should one find out.
The next pitches looked exciting, but pretty good. It joins the saddle of Briar Rabbit after 5 fairly long pitches.
That place really is spectacular, I know a lot of people don't understand why you would climb there, but the climbing is intricate and really complex. Even when aid climbing, it requires good free climbing skills to boot, technical aiding skills and a strong jedi mind. I look forward to going back...
I have some photos of the pitch and route around here if you want them.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 23, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
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Blog is....
http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger
Pics of some example wooden pegs are in the June 19th post. Many other pics sprinkled around in the posts.
Yeah, the "intricate" nature of climbing is for real. Just thinking through how to establish rope-runs that will work (as few "rubs" as possible)isn't easy. The Titan is very "corrugated," with many, many "ripples" that make it quite difficult to fix ropes without lots of rubbing. I'm double-roping my fixing, due to experience with significant sheath damage after a single jug (and I'm not a "bouncer" by any means). The thought of being "rubbed through" and thereby rubbed out despite my best efforts is not nice! So, I run a Gibbs on the second rope.
The FA team had no sense of route-finding, as my final topo will show. There really is no "line" here, so the whole game with the SA is to stay as close to their route as possible (either right on it, or within 20 feet, so I can see everything), while taking the most sensible line through the bulges and ripples (something they did not do). If you're just going to drill your way up, then at least pick a sensible line! The FA team often just drilled their way out and over the largest bulges in the area, while going 10 feet to one side or the other would have cut the problem in half. It's like they had some thrill with going out over the widest parts of the ripples.
I'm NOT happy with what I'm doing here, but the SA can be nothing else. At least once I'm done, the thing will be repeatable by anybody that wants a fun clip-up route with a bit of A3 mixed in here and there. It's honestly just sad that the FA team forced something to go there at all. There's no "route" here, that's for sure!
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jun 23, 2012 - 08:44pm PT
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Those sawed off pegs are screwey.
This keeps getting weirder the higher you get.
Thanks for the report.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Jul 28, 2012 - 05:26am PT
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Hey Richard, I'd be interested to hear your conclusions now that the climb has been completed. Any chance of a TR in the near future?
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2012 - 07:33pm PT
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Yes, it's been a project getting settled back in and picking up all the loose ends that developed during this ridiculous project.
I'll be updating the blog very soon, along with a pretty detailed TR.
The short answer is that it was a bashie ladder except for the top 180 feet, which had an A1/A2 crack system. I bypassed many bashies and retrofitted the whole route with nice "rivets" that should last decades. So, at this point, the route could be done quickly with a bunch of rivet loops and a fairly small rack (although there are some WIDE) and flared sections in places (up to 12"). Except for a couple of very short sections of A3, it's an A1/A2 route. The amount of drilling the FA team did has to be seen to be believed! I mean, even my many pictures all the way up the thing fail to do justice to a line of big holes that are drilled every 18 inches. These guys were "heroes" only at the anchors, where they often thought that two drilled bashies was an "anchor."
The only "danger" is that in many, many places you can't take even short falls without getting munched. I was scared at times even on A3 because of the constant potential landings (usually onto rock-embedded, aggregate ramps). That face is corrugated in a way that is really hard to describe. You do NOT want to have even one beak tip pull and drop you onto that stuff. Also, it's a fairly remote spot, and few hikers get out that far, so you'd be hanging there for a long time before even having the hope of some help. It would be a real pity to get crippled on an A2 section. LOL
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Cool.
I'll keep an eye on this thread and the blog for pics then, grats on busting another hyperbolic route rating.
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jeff_m
Social climber
700' up
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Aug 10, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
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Great thread and blog. (Sounds like you have the potential to start another CSI franchise: Climbing Scene Investigation.)
It turns out that they were also drilling custom holes, pounding wooden pegs into them, then sawing the pegs off flush and driving them when they were done, rendering them useless.
Seriously though, the truly disappointing aspect of all this is the premeditated planning with the intent to deceive. How many hours were spent thinking up the wooden dowel/peg tactic, practicing said tactic, bringing the saw, hiding the evidence all to report to the world (yes, I know it's a small world) that they did something of note? Seems like they gambled on no one ever wanting to SA; I guess they didn't plan on Richard calling their bluff.
Good job.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 14, 2012 - 06:10am PT
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Come on men!
Give up s---ing your dicks (one each other, I mean; yourselves are not possible, too short).
How can you support Mr. Jensen?
You say Pelut's style is not Tower's style, but you support a dude who bolts a route? Rivets, bolts and nice belay chains shinning under the Utah sun? Yeah, now the whole world understands what Tower's climbing style is!
By the way, Pelut and Ester have opened a new route on Kingfisher and made the SA of Weird Science...
P.S: Use vaseline!
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Sep 14, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
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TRON!!!!
BWhaHWHAHAHAhahahahHAaH!!!!
Silly Spaniards.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 14, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
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Effing gachupines effed up S America, effed up invading England, effed up
their country, and now they've effed up our country?
Professional Eff-ups!
Should have known from the get-go the route was bogus with a name like that!
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Sep 14, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
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Why do you have two usernames?
Madboiter and madbolter? Why not use just 1?
The FA's look like tools in that video.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Sep 14, 2012 - 03:42pm PT
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In the vid on that page, he hits that beak about five hundred times, is that normal for sandstone climbing, Jeremy?
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Sep 14, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
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How can you support Mr. Jensen?
Hey, don't count me in. I ain't suckin' no one's dick.
Jensen chose to climb the Spaniard's route. Seem strange that, given what he had to say about it, he chose to continue and finish it. I'd have come right down, started up something worthy. Now there's two set of holes, in parallel, up parts of the Titan. Right over the trail, too, visible to tourists. This makes us all look bad. It's just this kind of ego-driven nonsense that gets the attention of land-managers. A pox on both houses, I say.
Here's Jensen, on the Titan:
I'm NOT happy with what I'm doing here, but the SA can be nothing else. At least once I'm done, the thing will be repeatable by anybody that wants a fun clip-up route with a bit of A3 mixed in here and there. It's honestly just sad that the FA team forced something to go there at all. There's no "route" here, that's for sure!
And here's Jensen, talking about his Winds of Change: "After doing the Sea, we did adopt the tactic of "enhancing" hooks so that we could run things out more."
So, umm, first ascent team drilling to "run things out more" is not the same as first ascent team drilling to "force something"?
Please explain.
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
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Been too busy to think lately. Ultimately I'll get the pics and final TR finished and posted.
For the moment I'll just say that had I (or somebody) not finished the route, the FA team would have howled that nobody could "judge the route" because no SA had been done. So, somebody had to see the thing through to see what all of it was really like. I kept hoping things would get better, but they never did. The route is a botch job all the way up. But it needed a full SA to even be able to report that and to leave the FA team with no way to dodge all of the facts.
Regarding "2 lines of holes," etc., well, there are "holes" and then there are holes. My holes are FAR apart and have metal in them that will last. The FA line of holes will go away over time. There's no natural line there, so if there's going to be a line of holes, at least it's as well done as possible. And it's not all holes on my ascent. I bypassed a LOT of their holes with natural placements and got my holes 2 to 3 times as far apart as they did theirs. I would guess that I drilled 1/3 as many as the FA team did. So, the route is much better now than what they left behind, and it can now be repeated without additional drilling. It's sustainable.
Regarding "visible from the trail," I just have to laugh at that.
It's true that no route should have gone there, imho. But a route did, and outlandish claims were made. There was one and only one way to fully know the real story. So, there it is.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Sep 14, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
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It was/is a GREAT natural line that you can barely even see when you are on it.
That, really is the beauty of the best of the Fisher Tower aid climbing; to place a beak in a seam, straight off the belay, then stand up, place another, same seam. And this seam? You can't see any more than what's directly in front of you, because it's just a color change, a paler line with, maybe, a very slight depression, sliding its way up into who knows where. And you ride that seam, beak by beak, until you get to a point where nothing works. Uh oh. You're stuck. You probe around, reach side to side, down, up, all the time worrying that the beak you're standing on will blow, and then you reach out far to the side, so stretched you can't breathe, arms out at full extension, and tap, tap, and mysteriously a birdbeak sinks its way into an unseen crease. Yes! You step over, real slow and gentle, and stand up and off you go again.
Hours go by but you're so wrapped up in what you're doing, so hyper-aware of every crystal, every slight sound and every little nuance of the rock in front of you that you don't notice the time, the shifting shadows, hunger, heat, dry throat, sore feet, anything. You're working with the rock, probing its secrets.
Those pitches are rare, special. Not may of them around. Hope you route is still pretty much as you left it!
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Sep 14, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
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had I (or somebody) not finished the route, the FA team would have howled that nobody could "judge the route" because no SA had been done.
Yeah, true that. Bit of a Catch 22.
You either bail once you understand how the route has been so grossly misrepresented, or you finish the route just so you can't be accused of bailing for the wrong reasons.
You never really know what's coming up until you reach it. You could bail, thinking you've done the botch-job crux only to discover, years later, that a genuinely hard, cool pitch lay up ahead.
What would I have done?
Hard to say. I'd be very, very reluctant to start drilling during a second ascent. That would seem poor style; I'd have a real hard time justifying that to myself. I might have borrowed my wife's astronomical telescope to really study the beast (that telescope's no stranger to the Fishers). I might, if sufficiently intrigued, have scurried up the Finger of Fate then rappelled the line to really probe around with hammer and knifeblade or two and see what was in store.
But that's a lot of work. I'm not that hungry these days. Probably I'd have simply bailed, gone elsewhere.
To be honest, there's no way I ever would have started. The whole "A6" hype and the embarrassing, horrendous Bear Ghrylls-meets-the-tug-toner video (I would have studied this frame by frame [the Spaniard's video, not the tug toner one], to learn as much as possible before starting--homework!) would have turned me right off.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Sep 14, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
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this whole mess....
Fancy guys from spain with helmet cams,flashy clothes, and sponsorship are just ruining another desert tower. Old guys who don't know when to give up create another eyesore (dude, after pitch two we got the picture you should have come down and just called it bunk)
Jeremy and Crusher have shown me how much further desert aid can go- and I know it can go farther. All routes here are really too rare (planet wise) to let the world know "hi, I'm here, look at my ass". I have stumbled upon Bill Forrest's anchors, Fred Beckey's "bolt laddders", Todd Gordon's relics, Alby's tuna and chili cans, and seen and met weird people (and really weird things) with those who live every day in the 4 corners region.
In 10, 20, maybe 50 years people might go WTF, that bastard langmade, or Harvey, or gimpy, or gagner went up this shiat?
drink beer, eat well, and just casually say "yea the desert is a cool place to climb".
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 17, 2012 - 03:51am PT
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I just wanna say it seems to me you are a very closed inbred group (this also happens on the other side of the pool anyway) and flirting with high inbreeding coefficieng brings mental weakness...
But don't worry Jeremy, Weird Science hasn't been disfigured with bolts and rivets as God Jensen did (respect is a word that we all know in Europe). Just for your information, the people attempting SA of Pelut's new route on Kingfisher will need more than 60 peckers for the 1rst pitch. But well, seeing the kind of aid climbing you practice and support in the Towers, perhaps instead of peckers you'll need just bolts.
I just wanna add that Pelut urgently wrote to Jensen's blog to contact him during his last summer stage in the Towers (everybody can see it in the blog) and strangely God Jensen didn't dare to answer (not ubiquity gift for Richy!). He knows why, but bolting a route and ignoring the authors of this route when they are there, say much about this superhero and all the exploits he claims have done...
Be well all of you and climb hard!
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Sep 17, 2012 - 08:29am PT
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Second cousins are so hot right now.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 17, 2012 - 10:27am PT
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Yes! From July 6th to August 15th, Mr. God Jensen doesn't answer, and from August 4th to 15th, Pelut is pressing for having a beer together and talk about the new bolted route because he was opening a new route in Kingfisher and making the SA of Weird Science...
Perhaps he had no internet access but, oh surprise, in August 7th, Mr. Jensen wrote a post in Supertopo!
And all these are objective facts!
Oh man, what's wrong with Richy?
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 17, 2012 - 10:41am PT
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Hmm. I see the posts through July where they had a good dialogue. There's a few posts from Pelut in August that Richard doesn't seem to have addressed yet.
Were I to hazard a guess, I suspect he legitimately did not see Pelut's later posts on his blog - I didn't see much activity from him through most or all of August. By the sound of it he had a ton of stuff going on during the time that Pelut put up those posts.
I believe that when he has a look at what Pelut had to say, he'll have a lengthy response up shortly thereafter - it's not really congruent with his style to dodge this sort of thing. Maybe try emailing him, just in case?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 17, 2012 - 11:18am PT
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Well, since my point of view it's more congruent with Jensen's style saying "goofballs" to the FA team, bolting a route he had not opened, claiming the topo is completely useless and ignoring the First Ascenders meeting request to talk about everything in the web page he has created "ex profeso" to make known his epic SA... Ego problems?
But perhaps, the saddest thing is seeing the Fisher Towers aid climbing communtity applauding his truth and ridiculing the FA team just because they are from Catalonia (it's not exactly Spain!). Beyer's route name in Kingfisher was Death of American Democracy, wasn't it?
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 17, 2012 - 11:30am PT
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Well, the only thing I know for sure is that I know nothing.
Will watch this thread with great interest. But for now, off to bed. See you in 8.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 17, 2012 - 11:36am PT
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+1 Da_Dweeb! Good night!
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Sep 17, 2012 - 11:41am PT
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Rivet Hanger, boy you got a hard on for the wooden peg using then sawing off, copperhead trenching Euro couple. You in to that stuff huh? Kinky.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 17, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
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Sorry man, my English level does not include slang...
All I can say about wood and copper is what Pelut says in Jensen's web page: they are used together, a thing that seems scary for Jensen, who decided to bolt the route! You support that?
And in addition, do you thing the FA team lifted a handsaw chain up there and used it while hanging of a line of coppers or any other precarious pieces? Come on!
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Sep 17, 2012 - 12:12pm PT
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"All I have to say in response is that you can’t drill a line of bashies for 1000 feet and call that a route. You drilled bashies into blank rock when you should have used “mini-bolts” for all of those blank placements (most of them!). You drilled for almost every placement. There was no natural line here. You just manufactured a route where there was no line to follow. And the rating is absurd, totally absurd."
Richard Jensen in response to the First Ascentionist
Now, why Jensen continued the route? maybe he is crazy!
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 17, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
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When you've not opened the route, you can say that you don't like the style, that you'd have opened in another way, but at least in Europe, you cannot modify the route (well, obviously you can, but everybody will think you are a motherfu--er and nobody will support you). And I think that everybody can understand that is not same to hang on a line of these pieces http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/?attachment_id=205 that in a line of rivets like this! http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/?attachment_id=210
If you practice aid climbing you know what I mean.
In my opinion, bolting and destroying the route portraits the psychology of this dude...
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 17, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
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Hi Jeremy, my name is Pere Larocalla!
Very interested on your coming trip to the Towers. Take pictures of the destruction Jensen did on Titan (shinning bolts and belay chains, you know...). You could contact Pelut and attemp his new route by the way...
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Sep 17, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
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You should contact Pelut and tell him he is a hack.
Kalen Glenn
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Sep 17, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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a hole, is a hole, is a hole. I have in the past drilled holes for a hook (two), for copper heads (10), and for rivets. I know now 1/2 of those placements could have been done without the bit touching the stone which years later would make me happier, I feel I cheated like mastrae
how many holes per pitch filled or not on look out danger and the new route?
Also, little comment about jeremy's lead on weird science from the second ascent team- why?
If it is so cool you need to adopt tha merican rating system of 5.9 A.2+ or the NTB,YDFS grades.
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
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Long post warning!
I really, really don't have time for this. So, I'll try to "sum up" in this one post. I've put the annotated original topo on my blog today. I've also (finally) put up my detailed topo of the route. I'm putting links here rather than bringing in the actual images, because they are quite large.
Annotated original topo: http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/danger_topo_annotated.jpg
My finalized topo: http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/danger_topo_mine.jpg
Beyond this, I don't have much to say. I hope to find more time to "finish off" the blog with more pics as soon as possible. But at present I just don't have the time.
So, here goes....
You never really know what's coming up until you reach it. You could bail, thinking you've done the botch-job crux only to discover, years later, that a genuinely hard, cool pitch lay up ahead.
Yeah, that's exactly right, and that was indeed the struggle going through my mind the whole way. And the top two pitches are indeed a crack system. Had more of the route been "natural," we could instead be debating the "drilling ratios" or some such thing. But, aside from the top two pitches, the FA team put drill to "stone" on virtually every placement.
What would I have done?
I ask myself the same thing. Knowing what I now know, I would not have even started the route. Knowing what I now know, I probably would not have continued. But, I couldn't know then what I know now. And only a complete SA could really tell the whole story.
Hard to say. I'd be very, very reluctant to start drilling during a second ascent. That would seem poor style; I'd have a real hard time justifying that to myself. I might have borrowed my wife's astronomical telescope to really study the beast (that telescope's no stranger to the Fishers). I might, if sufficiently intrigued, have scurried up the Finger of Fate then rappelled the line to really probe around with hammer and knifeblade or two and see what was in store.
All good ideas. I actually employed the "scope" idea. I spent hours with a high-powered scope and with an 18mp camera with long lens. I made a detailed strip map of high-res pics and studied it carefully, trying to match up what the FA team's topo shows with features on the strip map. Part of why I call the original topo "useless" is that they show precious little in the way of "features," and vertical lines drawn on a topo do not correlate with cracks or even with the direction they went. With the topo and a strip-map, you see virtually no correlation!
The biggest problem with knowing anything from the ground is that you can scope out what looks to be a crack, only to get there and find that it is nothing but a bottomed ripple with no crack at all. Even scoping at different times of the day to see the "cracks" in different shading does not let you know if there is a pecker seam there or nothing. There is literally no way to tell what you're going to get until it's right in your face. And the wall is so corrugated that you often cannot see even 100 feet above you with any reliability. The net effect is that you just can't know what's "up there" until you get up there. And "cracks" on that side of the Titan apparently typically are not. "Features" are not what you hope, and no scope or strip map is going to reveal that.
Rapping the route would have left the FA team the option of claiming (as they are even now trying to float): "Well, you didn't STAND on our placements. Bottom line is that until you STAND on everything we did, you can't know how to rate the route. Just looking at the route from the security of rappel does not tell you the story." On and on. And I fully expected a CLIMB! So, it literally didn't occur to me to bail and rap the route. I'm a "ground up" guy, and I just don't think in "rap the route" terms.
Rapping the route would also be of less value than you might think. The thing hangs with mud, and the features are tiny and fragile. To know that a potential placement would work, you'd have to try it. And you'd often have to clear away mud to even "see" what to try. In short, the "rap" of the route would amount to a LOT of very concerted effort to see if a "route" even COULD go through there. And at that point some would be upset that I "hacked" the "rock" during the rap just to see what would go. This stuff is NOTHING like El Cap granite!
Finally, from the ground, the first pitch looks pretty fearsome. My close friends and family will attest to the fact that I did not take the A6+ rating as "pure hype" or anything like that. I mean, I was pretty sure that the fact the FA team based their rating on the fabled "A6" of Intifada meant that they were very confused about actual American ratings. But I expected A5, which on that "rock" is plenty! I went up there believing it would be a hard route, and I was prepared to die on it. Now, in retrospect, that sounds ridiculously grandiose. But I didn't have retrospect at that time. I expected the route to be hard, but I also expected to significantly down-rate it. I mean, A6+? I didn't expect to find THAT. But, bottom line is that all the way up I kept waiting for "the other shoe to drop," and I had to get ALL the way up to find out that there was no "other shoe."
At this point, in retrospect, it's easy to say that I should not have kept going. That's certainly a reasonable perspective, and I won't argue against it. As I said, I'm not happy with what I had to do to get all the way up it. I just kept thinking, "Surely they didn't drill ALL the way up! Surely there's more to this route than JUST a line of holes!" But, the fact is that it's basically a line of holes. No way to know that until getting ALL the way up.
So, in one sense I'm sorry for all the drilling. In another sense, in order to know the truth, either you had to go up there with a lumberyard or with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of euro-bashies... neither of which you're going to know in advance. Or, you had to retro-fit the route, which is what I did.
In America we simply don't drill wooden pegs and call it good. The fact remains that what I left behind is repeatable (for anybody that would... gag... care to), and I did it with about 1/3 the number of holes of the FA team. A hole IS a hole! All the debate after that concerns what you put IN the hole. What I put in the holes makes sense and will last. What the FA team put in the holes (apparently) requires you to bring up a lumberyard for each ascent, and it's not sustainable on that "rock." The FA team drilled hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of holes (more than 50 in just their first pitch). What I did was retro-fit the route. I shouldn't apologize for there being a route there in the first place.
IMHO no route should have been put there in the first place. And, had I known then what I know now, I would have left it alone to fade into obscurity and be covered by mud. But that would have left the FA team the basis to keep hyping the route as "the hardest aid climb in the world." And with no SA, there was no debunking the claims. The SA required retro-fitting. And I felt the need to go ALL the way up to fully KNOW the WHOLE story. And I would have "always wondered" had I bailed at any point. Again, I'm not happy with what needed to be done to KNOW the WHOLE story. And there's NO "glory" to me for being the one to discover the whole story.
I don't get paid to climb, and I get no "glory" for this SA. What was in it for me? In retrospect, nothing but the experience of "gearing up" for a route like that (mentally and physically). I went up there honestly prepared to die (even A4 in the Fishers is the real deal). But it was nothing but a slog. Just a giant waste of my resources.
So, it's easy now, in retrospect, to question my retro-fitting. I won't debate it beyond what I've just said. I made a choice, and it's easy to argue that it was a bad choice. I won't argue it beyond what I've just said. Everything is easy to "parse out" in retrospect. The route IS basically a bolt ladder. At least MY bolt ladder is an honest one (and with FAR fewer holes than the FA).
**
Now to the "Rivet hanger" comments....
Pelut's new route on Kingfisher will need more than 60 peckers for the 1rst pitch.
LOL.... Well, probably only if you plant them 18-inches apart, which seems to be the limit of Palut's reach, as seen on "Look Out...."
perhaps instead of peckers you'll need just bolts
LOL... Well, only if he trenched and drilled, as seen on "Look Out...." He certainly used a tiny fraction of the peckers he COULD have on "Look Out...." I planted good peckers many, many times IN his trenches (trenched into usable seams) and to easily bypass many of his drilled bashies! Of course, I can reach almost six feet between placements on that angle of rock, while Pelut seemed limited to no more than about 2 feet, with 18-inches between placements being most common.
a thing that seems scary for Jensen
You're joking. Right?
I just wanna add that Pelut urgently wrote to Jensen's blog to contact him during his last summer stage in the Towers (everybody can see it in the blog) and strangely God Jensen didn't dare to answer (not ubiquity gift for Richy!). He knows why, but bolting a route and ignoring the authors of this route when they are there, say much about this superhero and all the exploits he claims have done...
"God Jensen?" Wow... get over yourself.
Pelut posted a few times, never "urgently," and I quickly responded. The site was supposed to email me when comments came in, and it had been doing that. I don't know why in August it stopped, but I didn't get notified of any incoming comments in August. This thread is the first I've known of Pelut's comments in August. And I just got on and responded to them.
It's of note that comments in August (a MONTH after the SA was completed) would have been no help. All Pelut had to say in those August comments was sarcasm about what a glory-hound I am. And even your comments about my "superhero" status are quite laughable. If I have any reputation as a climber, to my knowledge "superhero" is not a feature of it. LOL
You seem to take umbrage at me saying anything at all about my past climbs. Unlike Pelut, I don't make a living climbing, nor does my "life" revolve around it at all. So, it would be a legitimate question in the international climbing community: "Who is this guy who thinks he has the stones to even attempt 'the hardest aid climb in the world'? Is he even qualified to judge such a route? CAN he even climb it without bringing it down to his level?" I've said a bit about that on the blog simply to answer such questions. I have some acquaintance with routes that have been called hard, including, ironically, Intifada. That does not make me a "superhero." All it makes me is qualified to evaluate what Pelut did on "Look Out...." And, if anything, my retro-fit of the route UPGRADES it rather than brings it down. It started out as far "down" as it could be.
I did not at ANY point "ignore the authors." I responded quickly even while on the route. And my failure to respond in August just denotes the FACT of how busy I've been and how little I've even thought about the SA since completing it. So, if you want to debate "facts" about my responsiveness, there they are. I haven't been "following" this thread or even my own blog since about early July. The fact that "the authors" of the route and some of their fanboys are now all amped up about my debunking of their hype does not put upon me corresponding pressure to respond with equal "urgency."
Well, since my point of view it's more congruent with Jensen's style saying "goofballs" to the FA team, bolting a route he had not opened, claiming the topo is completely useless and ignoring the First Ascenders meeting request to talk about everything in the web page he has created "ex profeso" to make known his epic SA... Ego problems?
But perhaps, the saddest thing is seeing the Fisher Towers aid climbing communtity applauding his truth and ridiculing the FA team just because they are from Catalonia (it's not exactly Spain!). Beyer's route name in Kingfisher was Death of American Democracy, wasn't it?
Perhaps "goofballs" was a bit harsh. That was a "heat of the moment" response resulting from staring at the biggest BOTCH JOB in climbing history. I mean, WHO ELSE in climbing history has literally drilled hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of holes up a fairly short tower (as "big walls" go) and then called it "the hardest aid climb in the world?" Pelut says (I quote): "The A6+ is not a proposal. I have the experience of Intifada, which is A6." Uhhh... Intifada was NEVER A6, and had Pelut bothered to get in touch with even a BIT of American climbing history, he would have quickly found out that Intifada was NO STANDARD by which to judge either ratings or style! So, yes, facing an EPIC BOTCH, I did employ a pejorative term. To do over again, I would have tried to calm down a bit first. But I only barely "back off" on this point, because what Pelut did on the Titan was GOOFY and a BOTCH.
And, technically, I did not "bolt a route I had not opened." I retro-fitted an ALREADY TOTALLY DRILLED "route!" And my retro-fitting employed about 1/3 the number of holes employed by the FA team. The FA team drilled a hole-ladder virtually bottom to top, and then hyped their style by proudly stating: "Only 33 mini bolts used for progression on pitches." What a joke! Saying "only 33 mini bolts" and emphasizing on the topo "the wall" as if it was THE blank section paints a TOTALLY different picture from what is really there! It's almost ALL blank. The "features" are almost all bottomed, so Pelut had to trench even his heads. And have I mentioned that there are hundreds and hundreds of BIG, DEEP holes drilled into blank stone? Why fill most of these holes with bashies and wooden pegs instead of a bolt? There is ONLY one reason: TO be able to make the hyped claims about the style of the route.
Pelut treats these countless, massive holes as though they are somehow "legitimate," while "mini bolts" are a problem that must be minimized! And YOU treat these placements as though they are somehow "precarious" and thereby legitimate climbing! They are neither precarious nor legitimate! Many of his bashies could not even be jerked out of the holes... that's how "precarious" they were! And the ones he could jerk out blew out the edges of the holes in most cases, leaving for any SA team holes that were not close to as good as what he used, and leaving useless flairs in MANY cases! You call THAT legitimate??? You call THAT even "climbing?"
Forgive me for my heat, but I'm outraged! That is not even CLIMBING! It was not "hard," and it left a "route" that was not even repeatable without a lot of additional drilling! Facing these blown-out flairs and blown-out trenches, what's the SA team supposed to do? Drill the holes deeper? "Sharpen up" the edges again? It's ALL drilling! The whole "route" is purely manufactured! It's ABOUT drilling! So, don't bash me for "bolting a route I had not opened." The state in which the FA team left the "route" demanded that the SA would do much more drilling. I was NOT going to just further drill out those ridiculous bashie holes. And I was NOT going to legitimize drilled-bashie anchors! I left an HONEST route, stripped of ALL the hype. The "route" IS and only EVER WAS a BOLT LADDER.
Repeat after me until you understand it: A hole is a hole is a hole is a hole is a hole. A trench is a hole is a hole is a hole is a hole. A drilled bashie is a hole is a hole is a hole. A drilled wooden peg is a hole is a hole is a hole is a hole. When you can grasp this principle, you will have grasped what we Americans think about aid climbing and aid climbing ratings in America. Use the FEATURES of the ROCK as much as possible, and CALL a hole a "hole" when you report what you did. DON'T drill for virtually EVERY placement and then CLAIM: "Only 33 mini bolts used...."
"Ego problems?" I'm stumped. WHAT ego-stroking could I possibly get from this botch??? The FA was a botch. The SA was nothing but a retro-fitting of a botch. There's nothing "worthy" in EITHER ascent! The ONLY reason I pushed the SA through was to eliminate ANY possibility of misjudging the route. I'm not proud of the SA. I just feel like somebody needed to do it. And, unlike Pelut, I don't get paid to climb. I have no "ego" nor financial stake in this game! I am not motivated by my "career" to keep putting up "bad-ass" climbs with "bad-ass" ratings in order to further my "career." Climbing is a very different thing for me than it (apparently) is for Pelut. So, point your "ego" finger in some other direction.
And, if you'll take note, I have never bashed on the FA team "just because they are from Catalonia" (let's not get into the technicalities of whether Catalonia is "not exactly Spain"). I "bashed" on the FA team because they drilled a bashie ladder up the Titan and then called it "the hardest aid climb in the world." To be really crisp and clear about this, I'm not even "bashing" on Esther, because I'm guessing that she didn't lead a pitch. As basically a "belay slave" she had little to do with the style of the leads. Pelut is the one responsible for the pitches and the hype surrounding the route. And Pelut's reputation is what's on the line here. Whatever he did before, and whatever he does after, the FACT remains that Pelut drilled a bashie/peg ladder up the Titan and hyped it as the hardest thing in the world. And THAT is what he has to account for in this context.
I'm happy that the climbing community "applauds truth." And it's not "my truth." It's THE truth. We want to know the truth, and I reported the truth. That truth debunks Pelut's hype about the route, and it is no "ridicule" to simply report the truth, which is all I've done.
Yes! From July 6th to August 15th, Mr. God Jensen doesn't answer, and from August 4th to 15th, Pelut is pressing for having a beer together and talk about the new bolted route because he was opening a new route in Kingfisher and making the SA of Weird Science...
Perhaps he had no internet access but, oh surprise, in August 7th, Mr. Jensen wrote a post in Supertopo!
And all these are objective facts!
Oh man, what's wrong with Richy?
Again, I did answer in June and July. And Pelut was not pressing for a meeting or anything like that. I was ON the thing until early July, btw; and his August comments on the blog contributed NOTHING to the ascent. Having read them, I see nothing that demanded my response. His comments appear to be so sarcastic that he could not have seriously believed that they "urgently" needed a response.
"What's wrong with Richy" is that he's unhappy with being forced to retro-fit an ENTIRE route just to find out the truth of it! I expected a CLIMB, and there was no CLIMB there.
So, let me end this with as much clarity as I can muster....
What Pelut SHOULD have done, to be totally honest about his tactics, was to build a 1000-foot high wooden ladder, lean it up against the Titan, and then step back proudly to say: "Look at what I have done! Oh, and it's really, really hard. It's the hardest thing EVER done! It is SO much harder than even your hardest, Intifada, that no existing rating can contain my awesomeness. MY ladder needs a whole new rating to describe how 'precarious' it is to stand on the (often precarious) rungs of my wooden ladder. True, my ladder really doesn't even TOUCH the rock, except at the top. I really don't USE the ROCK at all. It's really just a big wooden ladder! But it's a HARD wooden ladder, and it IS 'on' the Titan because it's leaning against it."
Something like that would have at least been HONEST! It's not "climbing," but at least it's honest.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Sep 17, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
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SIZZLE!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 17, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
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Madbolter, tell us what you relly think! HaHaHa! Nicely done sir!
Candid, balanced, and well written - you're on the wrong website.
OK, and slightly pejorative. ;-)
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Sep 17, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
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This all goes back to drilling.
RJ,there are a lot of holes on your topo which does not follow the original line in the middle.
To all, When anyone of you goes up on Time Machine (Glacier Point-9 o'clock wall) without a bolt kit and without heads and repeats it, then you might know what hard aid climbing is. Bob S. wanted a route that people could not question style thus he stepped out to do something (in 1984) without a chisel or a drill. Beyer's resume is badly tarnished from Intifada and some other escapades, but Shoenard's remains intact.
no chisel, no bolt kit.
ready, set, go.
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Sep 17, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
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Wow! This is going to be "Wings of Steel II, The Return of The Sh*tters".
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Gagner
climber
Boulder
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Sep 17, 2012 - 10:15pm PT
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This makes me sick to my stomach.
The Fisher Towers are a fragile place - one could legitimately argue that all climbing alters the stone/mud. I've certainly done my part over the years. But, drilling holes, whether for rivets, bolts, heads, bashies, or dowels - is still drilling a hole, and should be documented as such.
Here are a few comments -
1. What was the intent of using wood dowels, and then breaking them off? If this is true, then the route wasn't done in a sustainable, or repeatable manner. If this is not true then will someone please bear some light on this. I'm really curious about this practice because, while I know wood dowels have been used over the years, why would someone break them off, or saw them off, so they are unusable but future parties.
2. I have on several occasions over the years started a new route, only to discover that what I was gunning for was unusable - I bailed, not satisfied or willing to drill massive ladders. Jeremy and I bailed off a new route on the back side of the Oracle earlier this year when the seam we were gunning for on the 2nd pitch turned out to be blank.
3. To assert that the uproar here has to do with where someone hails from is silly. Great new routes, put up in good style are welcome by anyone, from anywhere.
4. As has been said up-thread, a hole is a hole is a hole. I rarely comment on rumor and speculation, but I've looked at Richard's photos, which seems to tell a story of a lot of holes, for pitches on end, and then the holes in some instances were destroyed and made unusable so a repeat ascent would be unrealistic. If this assessment is wrong, please tell a different story.
5. The seeming lack of honesty is sad. How could a ladder of holes really seriously be considered A6+, or A3 for that matter.? Why only state rivet holes, but not other major holes where the drill was put to rock? Climbing has always been a "sport" guided by passion and honesty. I believe this to be true no matter what side of the pond you are on.
As I said at the beginning - this makes me sick, and sad. There is a finite amount of rock. Let's be respectful and honest about our routes.
Paul
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 17, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
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Hey, yeah! If a picture is worth a thousand words, ten or so could stand in for Richard's next post...
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Sep 18, 2012 - 12:59am PT
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Hey Rivet dude, or Pullet, or Esther, can you please post some photographs of the equipment (gear) wassa right word, doohickies, thingumies; the copper and wood and lead (plomo, cobre...., devices, that were used on Danger.....fotografía!!!!
We're struggling here to understand exactly what you have done.
It it is alleged (presunto) by Jensen that you used a drill 18 inches times 900 feet, about 600 times.That would be seiscientos, comprendez? Yes? No?
Jensen, completamente loco, has drilled even more, or so he says. About 1/3 more, for a grand total of about 800 holes. OCHO CIEN. Saltando Jesús en la cruzar!
You all should be taken out and shot (pena de muerte, pronto). No hay excepciones.....
I mean, ¿qué coño
Mi aerodeslizador es ful de anguilas......grrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Sep 18, 2012 - 01:20am PT
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Mi aerodeslizador es ful de anguilas......grrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!
Which is definitely not the way to climb desert towers. Lampreys are just too squishy to provide reliable protection no matter how hard you hammer them into the holes you've drilled.
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2012 - 02:59am PT
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It it is alleged (presunto) by Jensen that you used a drill 18 inches times 900 feet
No, that's a bit much. I wouldn't say that the average was 18 inches. The average was probably more like 28.33538 inches. Pelut got as much as 3-feet between holes at times (rarely, even 4). And it's probably not 900 feet either. Probably more like 700, taking the top two pitches and the odd natural sections into account. That revised combination of numbers knocks literally hundreds of holes off of the estimate. So, probably "taken out back and shot" is a just a wee bit harsh. Maybe just taken out back and have a lamprey or two attached for a few hours, or something like that. Let the eels have their revenge.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 18, 2012 - 04:06am PT
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And perhaps submit a report to the Ministry of Silly Rock Climbing...
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 18, 2012 - 09:33am PT
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This thread pretty much puts the nail in the coffin for any desire I once had to climb hard aid.
The terms mountains out of molehills arises, oddly enough. I understand some people really love it (bless 'em for it), and the Fishers is a fragile place and any kind of impact should be looked at.
But seriously, this is rock climbing????
Do you guys know there are Stadiums that will pay you hundreds of dollars an hour to basically nail the same sh#t, only on Steel framing instead of mud????
And to think of how much sh#t Boulderers get on this forum... lol.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 18, 2012 - 11:27am PT
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Go slut it up elsewhere dude.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 18, 2012 - 11:29am PT
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GDavis, maybe that was a parody? ;-)
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 18, 2012 - 11:39am PT
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He's been hawking around at a few threads, actually I have nothing wrong with what he is doing, just saw an opportunity to make a joke, lol.
I also don't find any fault with hard aid, again... an opportunity to make fun of something came up. Like I can pass those!
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 18, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
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Sorry Jer, they went over to mountainproject.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 18, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
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Aye? I'd be interested in hearing what you mean, Ron.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 18, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
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Oh, I see. Thank you.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Sep 18, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
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topo request (bump)
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Sep 18, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
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[quote]The average was probably more like 28.33538 inches. Pelut got as much as 3-feet between holes at times (rarely, even 4). And it's probably not 900 feet either. Probably more like 700, taking the top two pitches and the odd natural sections into account. That revised combination of numbers knocks literally hundreds of holes off of the estimate. [/quote
madbolter1, that's a very polite response to last night's whiskey-fueled rant. Thanks.
Using your revised estimate, with 700 feet of drilled placements times 30 inches per, there are about 280 drilled placements. That's a staggering number.
To which you added one-third more, say, 90? For a grand total of 370 drilled placements winding their way up the side of the Titan.
It's not clear whether you repeated their route, failed on their route, created your own route. Perhaps all three. It's a mess. If your allegations about the first ascent methods are true, the Catalonians created a mediocre, badly done, bolt-ladder aid route then brazenly lied about what they did. Or, at best, are utterly clueless about aid climbing. Grim accusations, but seemingly supported by the photos you've posted and review of the video they produced.
Placing up to 90 new bolts on a second ascent in the Fisher Towers is also unprecedented; appalling on the face of it. But maybe to be upset at this is to blame the messenger. I dunno.
At this point, Pelut is surely aware of these claims. It would be great to hear from him to clarify what they did. Or think they did. Pelut?
Some of really care about these crumbly towers, it's sad to read this stuff.
This deserves repeating:
A hole is a hole is a hole is a hole is a hole. A trench is a hole is a hole is a hole is a hole. A drilled bashie is a hole is a hole is a hole. A drilled wooden peg is a hole is a hole is a hole is a hole. When you can grasp this principle, you will have grasped what we Americans think about aid climbing and aid climbing ratings in America. Use the FEATURES of the ROCK as much as possible, and CALL a hole a "hole" when you report what you did. DON'T drill for virtually EVERY placement and then CLAIM: "Only 33 mini bolts used...."
crunch
Steve Bartlett
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
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NP, Steve. God knows, as do many others on the Taco, that I've had my share of rants; and I can't even blame whiskey. lol
Yeah, based upon my "restocking" trips during the weeks, I'm guessing that 90 holes is about right for my retro-fit. And I certainly understand your concern. I do, of course, think that we shouldn't kill the messenger. The "route" left by the FA team was unrepeatable without TONS of additional drilling... either to make usable their holes (which I just couldn't bring myself to "validate" in that way, or by drilling new holes.
Regarding whether or not I did a "new route," I would say this. Except for about 60 feet of their seventh pitch (my fifth), I was either exactly on their route or within spitting distance of it. My goal was to keep their route under constant and very close scrutiny, while working a better "line" through the continual corrugations of the wall.
This "flexibility" meant that I made use of many small (but actually usable) features for a placement or two, instead of following the FA team into oblivion... for example into a totally bottomed "seam, like on their fourth pitch, in which they just trenched heads and drilled straight-in bashies for fifty feet.
This tactic also enabled me to work through the thin points of overhangs instead of (apparently) intentionally just drilling out the thickest points (with correspondingly more holes)! So, except for their seventh pitch, my "variation" meanders all over their route (often right on it), always within no more than about 20 feet of their "line." By so doing the route makes MUCH more sense and is done with much less drilling! A few years of natural processes will largely or completely cover most/all of their holes, effectively erasing most of their ridiculousness.
For that 60 feet I didn't lay eyes on, they went way right around a corner (drilling all the way there) and then came back left 60 feet higher (where drilled holes reappeared). That intervening section is part of their "A5R" pitch, and from above I could see down part of it that I couldn't see from the side. ALL drilled bashie holes. And what I found is that their "A5" and above was ALWAYS just drilled bashies. And, believe me, they were sewing it up... I guess to mitigate the "risk" of zipper.
Again, I could have just bailed, and, again, maybe I should have. That's an open question that will always haunt me. But I keep coming back to the simple fact that the only way to know the whole story was to do the whole route. And that produced a constant tension regarding HOW to get up the damned thing!
I'll say one more thing. At times the "best" choice was to just use one of their existing trenches. Where I did this, I planted nice, stainless-cabled heads and left them in place; they are solid. That "rock" simply won't sustain the cycle of trenching, jerking, re-trenching, jerking, etc. So, I ended that cycle wherever I used one of their trenches. My WHOLE goal on the retro-fit was to ELIMINATE the need for ANY future party to drill, chisel, or re-trench to get up the thing.
Regarding my tongue-in-cheek response to the hole-estimate of their route, I will say that there are hundreds and hundreds of holes. HOW many is open. I quit counting early on, as it was just ridiculous. 300 holes (or perhaps even more) is certainly not out of the question. As I say, there were over 50 in the first pitch alone (every 18 to 24 inches!).
Again, I am very torn about what I had to do to find out the whole story. But, I didn't put the POS up, what I left behind is MUCH better by every metric, and at least we now do know the real and complete story. Pelut has no wiggle-room and no "easy exit" via ANY argument at this point. During the ascent, I reached the point where that became the primary issue to me.
I agree that my charges are "grim." I've been (unjustifiably) on the receiving end of such charges myself, so I know the gravity of it. But the facts are what they are, and I did as careful and thorough a job of documenting the mess as I could, while trying to retro-fit the mess as best I could. There's no "win" to be had with the SA, and I'm not proud of the SA. But the "route" was an epic botch, arguably the worst in climbing history, and I did the best I could with what I had to work with.
Thanks, Steve, and all the best to you,
Richard Jensen
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 19, 2012 - 07:08am PT
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Bumping - I'm curious as to what thoughts or response Pelut and crew and/or Rivet Hanger have regarding the last few days worth of posts.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 19, 2012 - 11:46am PT
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Ok Richy, it's obvious that you had to ripe the route by bolting it and putting belay chains there where didn't exist! I just thank God (not endeed, I do not believe in God, but it's just a way of expression) that Ammon and Kait didn't do the same to your controversial Wings of Steel (just A3+ if I'm not wrong, am I?)...
To Jeremy: Sorry, I'm not Pelut's messenger. If you need his email to ask him for a topo (I think he'd be pleased to give it to you), I suggest you to write on Desnivel magazine forum or ask it to Richy... Don't be lazy, internet is a big information provider, give up this typical American navel-gazing attitude. Anyway, I'll be very pleased to see photos of both Titan an Kingfisher routes after your coming trip, specially the shinning bolts and bomb-proof belay chains...
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 19, 2012 - 11:51am PT
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Ok Richy, it's obvious that you had to ripe the route by bolting it and putting belay chains there where didn't exist! I just thank God (not endeed, I do not believe in God, but it's just a way of expression) that Ammon and Kait didn't do the same to your controversial Wings of Steel (just A3+ if I'm not wrong, am I?)...
Ahh. I think I'm starting to see what the larger issue is here.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 19, 2012 - 11:54am PT
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I don't think so, Titan can't feel shame...
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 19, 2012 - 11:57am PT
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Rivet, you're not really addressing any of the points Madbolter is making. Go back, have a look at his post, and see if you can come up with a response that's something more than just a sad attempt at an Ad Hominem.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
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Oh shi# dweeb not the ponies again!
Rivet hanger, all you keep saying is that he added bolts. Are you going to reply to his comments about all the holes pelut drillied? What a botch job!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
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I want to get some of that de-javu coffee.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
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This thread is the Supertopo equivalent of that VH1 show "I love the 80's!"
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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How come nobody is giving them props for being green and all with the wooden pegs?
Now all ya gotta do is take yer brace and bit along to auger out the pegs!
SWEET!
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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No, too boring.
I think his position is really clear and mine, too...
I'm not Pelut's voice, he's grown-up enough (altough he can't English), but if bolting a previous route is ethic for you and justifies the destruction of bashie's line, everything is clear.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
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Well done, Jeremy! The first interesting thing you do. Come on, attemp the SA of the new route on Kingfisher, create a new web side and tell the world. And if you must drill more than the original route, don't worry at all, the whole USA will support you, dude!
"It's a f*#king travesty and he should be f*#king ashamed to call himself a climber."
I agree, he has a really bad climbing curriculum...
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Gagner
climber
Boulder
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
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Pere Larocalla (Rivet Hanger) -
Lots of passionate name calling going on here, which is typical for the internet. You keep bringing the topic of the SA up. Let's set the SA aside for a moment - I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the style. What I, and others, are trying to understand is the following:
1. How could the SA be done without drilling if the methods used on the FA were unsustainable, and seemingly trying to obfuscate what was really done - wooden dowels broken off, bashie holes that were destroyed?
2. What was the intent of the FA team in trying to say they had established the hardest aid climb in the world when in fact any rational person would not think that a ladder of holes, no matter what filled them, could be considered anything more than scary - certainly not hard.
3. Why lie about the amount of drilling done - was the expectation really that no one would go up to see for themselves? I believe in all areas it is common tactic to identify all holes drilled - look at any of the topos for my routes and I clearly call out every hole on lead, and where the drill touched rock.
Are the comments in this thread yours, or are they coming from Pelut?
Let's have a rational discussion and some real answers to the questions that have been asked versus the ongoing name calling.
Paul
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Sep 19, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
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Hey Jeremy, at the risk of sounding like a typical American navel gazer, who are homeboys sponsors? Id be happy to write them and let them know how I and other locals feel about this.
I don't think these guys are going to answer any of the pertinent questions because there is no excuse for what they did. All a climbers got is his credibility and these guys have lost theirs.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Sep 19, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
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Thanks Jeremy, will do.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 19, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
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Now I see why he likes climbing on sandstone.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Sep 19, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
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That's not pretty. Is that what you call a bashie? Is that destruction (clearing out the mud around it) warranted?
I'll stick to free with the (too) occasional hang for a rest. But if I were to get into real aid I'd find out how to make the best style work.
Thanks for the police work guys. The towers rule!
Arne
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Sep 19, 2012 - 02:44pm PT
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ionlyski,
No not a bashie. It's a Black Diamond Pecker, probably the midsize unit. It all looks totally typical for the Fishers. Looks like it's gonna be a scary placement, but ends up being pretty bomber. And yes, the removing of loose fluff is normal, too. This ain't El Cap....
At some point in the hammering process you're wasting your time keeping on hitting. If you keep going when your arm is tired you can mis-hit and loosen or bend the pin. Precision counts for a lot.
Otherwise, he's doing okay. In fact it looks great. I want some......
Only unusual thing is the spacing. He's hammering at arm's reach above him, yet the previous pin is at his face. Why doesn't he move up one step? He could get a better look at what he's doing, it would make the hammering easier, maybe he could even reach way higher again with the same piton?????????
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Sep 19, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
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Thanks Steve. I'm learning. Yeah, I felt my arm tiring just watching and I wondered why he hammered so long.
Arne
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
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Wow, that video clip explains SO much! And I can see now that I really need to issue an apology to the whole climbing community. I am shamed!
That video clip proves to me that we should leave climbing to the professionals! Don't try this at home, kids. I know I've learned MY lesson, sadly, too late!
Amateurs just think wrong. See, like me. I can see that now.
For the first time, I can see some of the huge mistakes I was making on the SA of Weak Sauce. One point for SURE: The whole time I wasn't driving placements DEEP enough, and that was because I was looking for placements that were clearly (to me now) impossible to use.
I was standing on placements (off to the side of the, now obviously, necessary hole ladder) that were, now obviously, not even usable! How STUPID and arrogant of me! I was thinking that 1/8-inch of a pecker tip was okay, so, foolishly, I was STANDING on such things! What was I thinking? I see now that professionals don't DO that, and for good reason!
HOW such placements were working is now completely beyond me. I never realized that professionals just don't use such things... that unless you can get a pecker in ALL the way (and then some), you just don't use it! And, when in doubt (and some of those pecker tips did cause me some doubt), the professionals just pound on the placement some more. Doubt-pound, doubt-pound... until the placement just disappears into the rock.
See, the professionals just KNOW things that we amateurs can't know. That's why they are professionals!
Wow, I would have just stayed COMPLETELY "on route" had I realized.... And, of course, that would have meant that I just couldn't DO the thing. Just too professional for me! I see that now.
I am so, so sorry for my arrogance that could have EVER led me to imagine that I was up to that, professional, caliber of climbing. Can there be any forgiveness?
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Sep 19, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
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from the webpage:
"David Palmada agradece el apoyo para poder realizar esta actividad a sus patrocinadores Fixe, Arcteryx, La Sportiva, C.E. Montserrat, Raiders y Totem Cams."
there is a list of sponsors.
of course, Aslaksen sponsored by PBR and Natty Lite.
(this all goes back to climbing for sponsors and title vs love of adventure- and drinking beer.)
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 19, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
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Damn, he must be sum kinda badazz if the Raiders sponser him! Whoa!
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Sep 19, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
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Just drive some big old ring shank duplex nails into the sawed off dowels. Viola, instant pro.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 19, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
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of course, Aslaksen sponsored by PBR and Natty Lite.
I think he Rides the Tiger too:
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Sep 19, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
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Worst display of an aid move I have ever seen.
Uses a daisy like a poof too.
I place full blame on his local gym.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Sep 19, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
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Why does every piece get the heavy metal devil horn treatment?
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Sep 19, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
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^^^ Because nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 19, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
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And that makes this thread's Monty Python reference #5!
...3.
Reference #3!
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 19, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
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When I was in Mali Africa climbing this tower that the Spaniards did I come to the Off Width crack.
They drilled a blot ladder next to it all the way to the belay because they couldn't lead it free nor had the gear to aid it.
Way homo.
Why climb way homo?
Just bail instead and and say you're no good instead of climbing like a inquisitor to conquer.
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Sep 19, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
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Why climb way homo?
All time favorite Werner quote.
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jeff_m
Social climber
700' up
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Sep 19, 2012 - 08:43pm PT
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Second that. Haha!
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MisterE
Social climber
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Sep 20, 2012 - 01:13am PT
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You all need to back off on calling this "Climbing".
This is vertical destruction of the very worst kind.
An ego-driven construct of unfamiliar minds,
ruining history for their own satiation.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Sep 20, 2012 - 01:21am PT
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+1000 Mister E
Edit: Forgot +1000 Werner
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 20, 2012 - 04:05am PT
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Well, I see everything is about American National Ego...
Someone who has repeated "Intifada" and "Weird Science" among other routes in the Towers, who has opened new routes in Baffin or in the Towers in addition of non expansion aid climbing routes in Europe (which are waiting the Jensen's or other American parties SA), who has repeated all the hardest aid climbing in Spain (see Naranjo de Bulnes, for instance) and has stablished aid climbing speed records, deserves a little bit less of prejudice, although your American ego makes it hard (as hard as the appropriate protection of the Embassies and their Ambassadors, by the way).
And to Paul (who seems the only to have a reasoning vision), all the absolute reasonable questions you do should be answered for the FA team (I repeat that I DO NOT talk in the name of Pelut), but what I say is that Jensen didn't had any intention of answering this questions, otherwise he would have been really interested in having a meeting with them when they were in the Towers last summer and talk about the route or at least answer the posts on his web page... I'm sure a rational person would have acted like this and for sure wouldn't have bolted other's route under a so weak pretext (only a disturbed person or a ego-wounded carry out an action like this). I encourage you to persuade Jeremy to publish the result of his coming trip to the Towers as regards to Weird Science and Pelut & Ester's new route on Kingfisher.
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 20, 2012 - 04:24am PT
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Well, I see everything is about American National Ego...
The thing that you do not seem to understand is that the route (according to Jensen's blog and pictures) clearly goes against the aid climbing ethics that exist in the US. It is not about national ego but about the fact that manufactured difficulty (drilled hooks, drilled bashies, drilled wooden pegs etc) is considered bad there. The standard is that you should not drill if it is not necessary and if you have to you should fill it with a rivet or bolt.
but what I say is that Jensen didn't had any intention of answering this questions, otherwise he would have been really interested in having a meeting with them when they were in the Towers last summer and talk about the route or at least answer the posts on his web page...
and you know that Jensen read those questions in August?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 20, 2012 - 04:47am PT
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Read ancient posts about if Jensen read or not Pelut's answers on his websites (objective facts clearly indicate so!).
And about the ethics, I do not defend Look out, danger! (although it's hard to me to belive that knowing Pelut, he did a mess like Jensens claims), but everybody in this thread was laughing at FA team and showing absolute perjudice and says nothing about the retobolting Richy did on the route...
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 20, 2012 - 04:59am PT
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Read ancient posts about if Jensen read or not Pelut's answers on his websites (objective facts clearly indicate so!).
I do not know what you mean. Jensen did answer the first of Pelut's posts but not the late ones. I neither understand spanish so I cant follow the discussion.
And about the ethics, I do not defend Look out, danger! (although it's hard to me to belive that knowing Pelut, he did a mess like Jensens claims), but everybody in this thread was laughing at FA team and showing absolute perjudice and says nothing about the retobolting Richy did on the route...
Have we read the same thread? The comments have been about the route and not due to prejudice. The retro bolting has also been discussed.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 20, 2012 - 05:44am PT
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Well, arrived at this point, I think all positions are clear and we are in a nererending loop...
Have a nice climbs!
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 20, 2012 - 06:04am PT
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Jensen didn't had any intention of answering this questions, otherwise he would have been really interested in having a meeting with them when they were in the Towers last summer
As stated in "ancient" posts, this is certainly not Jensen's style.
Further, this has little to do with "American Ego" and much more to do with a lack of cultural sensitivity on the part of the climbing party. As any number of posts in this forum alone address, the most important aspects of good aid climbing style in the US aid climbing culture involve following natural progressions of the rock itself, without drilling or modifying the rock unless absolutely necessary (and then, ensuring that the equipment used is such that the route is sustainable and repeatable by parties that follow). The Wings of Steel thread itself has thousands upon thousands of posts addressing this very issue, something I'm sure you've seen yourself if you have in fact reviewed it.
Additionally, many climbers dislike Pelut's decision to generate a series of drilled placements and call the route A6+. This is, justifiably, considered by many to be an overexaggeration of the route's difficulty to the point of absurdity. (Jeremy's frog picture sums it up nicely, doing 5 sit ups does not make one a bad ass.)
Rivet, I was rather hoping to hear a rational rebuttal to Richard's response, or at least an understandable explanation that didn't involve Ad Hominem and a fallback on "American Ego" and nationalism/prejudice as a defense. But as that is all you seem to present, I think you're undermining your own position at this point.
If you have a reasonable, rational take on the situation to present, I would very much like to hear it. Otherwise, it's time to warm up the pony cannon...
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2012 - 07:25am PT
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otherwise he would have been really interested in having a meeting with them when they were in the Towers last summer
Rivet hanger....
Are you talking about the Summer of 2011 or the Summer of 2012? I was at the Fishers both times (in 2011 in early July). And exactly how would I have known that Pelut was there or when he was? I can tell you that he never emailed me, and I didn't even have the blog UP last Summer, so he didn't post on the blog then. Which "August" are you talking about?
If you're talking about this most recent Summer, 2012, anything Pelut would have posted to my blog in August would have had zero effect on the SA, as the SA was already finished by early July (more than a month earlier). So, WHY would I have cared to meet with Pelut AFTER the SA was finished? I didn't need any "answers" from him at that point. I had by then found the answers on the route itself!
I really don't understand why you are so fixated on my responding to and meeting with Pelut. I've explained why I didn't respond in August (last month), and I have recently responded to those two (very sarcastic) posts. Nothing in Pelut's comments last month contributed any "answers" to anything!
What am I missing here? I honestly don't understand why this is such a big issue to you. If you're trying to make the case that I'm somehow "bad" because I "ignored" Pelut, you are not making that case very well. I'm just confused.
**
You also seem to be holding a double-standard. You make it out like I had some duty to contact Pelut before doing the SA. I didn't (although, actually, I tried last year, but that's another story)!
By contrast, you talk about how awesome Pelut is because (among other things) he did a repeat of Intifada. But if Pelut was going to use the (ridiculous and debunked) "A6" rating of Intifada as the basis for his rating of "Look Out...," he had a DUTY to find out something of the history of that route. Had he done even a superficial search on the Net, he would have found out that Intifada is not considered a "hard" route, that the A6 rating was debunked for over a decade, and that Intifada was nothing special to use as a "standard."
HAD he done this, he would have realized that he was NOT "awesome" for doing some repeat of that route, and he would NEVER have said ridiculous things like: "The A6+ is not a proposal. I have the experience of Intifada, which is rated A6." Intifada was NEVER A6, and that fact has been WIDELY known for over a decade!
So, don't claim that I OWED Pelut some contact before doing his route, yet at the same time fail to recognize that Pelut had an even stronger duty to find out EVERYTHING he could about Intifada before doing a repeat of it, since he was going to use it as THE standard of difficulty and the basis for a whole new aid rating!
You can't have it both ways. And you don't seem to realize HOW much credibility Pelut loses by continuing to claim that Intifada was A6.
I don't know what "hardest aid climbs" in Spain you are talking about. But I CAN say at this point that, based upon what I've seen about how Pelut climbs, he would be unable to repeat even what we would call "moderate" routes on El Capitan in good style. Before Pelut came over here to "make his mark" on the American climbing scene, he should have been IN TOUCH with that scene (even if only by reading!). Then he would have realized that "the standard" he thought he was exceeding was not the REAL standard at all!
You don't claim to have put up "the hardest aid climb in the world" without having done what are the REALLY hard climbs in the US. Call that statement "national pride" if you wish. But the fact remains that many of us know that there are MUCH harder things in the US than Intifada, and if Pelut thought Intifada was hard, then THAT says something (not good) about his level and about "the hardest aid climbs" in Spain that he's done! (Does he use the same tactics on all of his climbs?)
And, I'm sorry, but the video clip of Pelut beating and beating on that pecker, reaching only about 24 inches between placements, really was funny. For a guy telling the world that he is the hardest aid-climber in existence, he should know that the tactics he displayed in that video clip did him no favors! This has nothing to do with nationalities! This has to do with tactics and skills. When we hear Pelut's CLAIMS and then see that video clip, well, sorry, but many of us just naturally laugh.
Finally, what you MOST fail to realize is that how I did the SA of "Look Out" is meaningless when talking about how Pelut did the FA! Bashing on the SA changes nothing about the FA. Bashing on SA does NOT shield Pelut from the legitimate anger we feel about how he did the FA, especially given his CLAIMS about it. No matter how "bad" you claim my SA was, by any measure of "badness" you care to use, Pelut's FA was far, far, FAR worse!
So, you don't keep Pelut from having to "face the music" by bashing on the SA. Regardless of what I did, we all now know the reality of what Pelut did on the FA, and it IS a travesty. And we all now know that Pelut's claims about the route were disingenuous or false. Pics don't lie, and Pelut's own video clips correlate perfectly with the pics. You CANNOT use the drill for virtually every placement and then claim you are awesome! And you cannot use the drill for virtually every placement on a climb in the United States and not catch a lot of heat for it!
Wake up, my friend. You've hitched your cart to the wrong horse... uhhh... pony... whatever.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 20, 2012 - 09:20am PT
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He's just a tool, Mark. Don't bother. They got the message, there is literally no thing you can say that will absolve in his eyes.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 20, 2012 - 10:04am PT
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Ok Richy, everything is clear!
But what I exactly critize is that you create an ex profeso web page to explain your epic exploit weeks ago of even beginning the SA. Anyway, you don't contact the authors of the route to at least get the topo, you don't even try to find out who they are and their previous experience (and perhaps nobody better than you should be concerned about that taking in account your story of WOS), you disfigure the route by bolting it under an at least questionable pretext, you injury and acuse them of even lift up a handsaw to invalidate a possible SA, and once Pelut's finds your web page out and contacts you (that was June 23th and what is much more than you did!) and at the beginning of August repeatedly pushes to contact you coz he is the Towers making a new route and repeating Weird Science, you just don't even answer (although you "publish" a post in Supertopo!)... Well, to be honest, you answer on September 17th (One month and a half later!). And meanwhile, all supertopo community applauds your heroic deed without any kind of critic vision (American Aid Climbing inbred coefficient? Just see the 2nd comment down there: http://climbing.about.com/b/2009/09/11/is-new-fisher-towers-aid-route-a-mythical-a6.htm. Perhaps is even yours).
What I think is that your ego was hardly wounded by the not-so-megahyperextreme A5 WOS (just A3+, isn't it?) and you had to discharge your frustration somehow. You downrated Intifada from A6 to A4+ and Ammon downrated your A5 to A3+. Beyer was a little bit more right than you anyway...
Come on man, at least you have what you were searching for: you are the fu--ing superhero of Supertopo and now everybody knows that yours is the biggest Dick in aid climbing planet worlwide! Has Black Diamond contacted you yet?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 20, 2012 - 10:13am PT
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Explanation: this is a Pecker. (Pecker, this is The Chief!)
Justification: Crazy people use this to progress when find thin cracks. You must be very carefully because perhaps won't hold your weight in the case of falling down...
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 20, 2012 - 10:21am PT
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lol google translate.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 20, 2012 - 10:23am PT
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you disfigure the route
The concept of disfiguring this travesty of a hole ladder el pinche maricon drilled up a blank wall is about like the idea of deflowering a whore.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Sep 20, 2012 - 10:35am PT
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What I think is that your ego was hardly wounded by the not-so-megahyperextreme A5 WOS (just A3+, isn't it?) and you had to discharge your frustration somehow. You downrated Intifada from A6 to A4+ and Ammon downrated your A5 to A3+. Beyer was a little bit more right than you anyway...
This is a completely apples-to-oranges comparison because the aid climbing grade scale has been widely readjusted over the past 30 years, and many "A5" routes from the same rough time period as Wings of Steel are now considered A4 or even A3/+. Also, Ammon had access to modern gear (small cams, etc.) that the FA team didn't (don't know how much this affected the grade but he made a point of mentioning that it helped on certain pitches). Whereas Intifada has been subject to downgrades by multiple parties without any reference (that I can tell) to "new wave/old school" grading discrepancies, nor does newer equipment appear to be a factor; it was just over-graded.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 20, 2012 - 10:35am PT
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Dude I saw this rad tower out East, massive first ascent potential. Definite A6 nailing that I saw being done over there by locals, hardcore sh#t.
Here's Weld-it working on a fresh and hot A7-, but he had to paint the f*#kin thing - only way the landowner gave permission. Damn natives...
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 20, 2012 - 10:41am PT
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You're right the Chief! Even in Europe we've heard that all the American Aid Climbers put the feet on the last step of the aiders when hanging of Peckers. This way you save money and don't buy unnecessary iron... In addition of impressing worldwide aid climbers community!
By the way, 3 poundings is enough for a Pecker in vertical mud? (And please, try not to write like a Bronx member, I do not understand slang (although this thread is helping me a lot), sorry! And the same to you ElCap, sorry for my not-native English! I apologize!).
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Sep 20, 2012 - 11:21am PT
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Rivet Hanger = Da Dweeb ?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 20, 2012 - 11:24am PT
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This thread needs a Fish audio rant, badly.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 20, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
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Sure Chief!
That's why you've repeated hard routes in the Fisher Towers including Intifada, Weird Science, Beaking in Tongues or Death of American Democracy... And needless to talk about your hard ascents in Yosemite or Black Canyon and even your epic first ascents. Youtube is full of your last-step aiders Pecker placing with just 2.5 poundings!
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 20, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
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Do you know that the FA team of weird science post on this thread?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 20, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
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Yes!
Jeremy, who gently introduced himself and Paul, who seems to be the most racional in this thread...
Of Jeremy I expect a good report of his coming trip to the Towers of Look out, Danger!, Weird science after Pelut and Ester SA and the new route these Catalans opened in Kingfisher.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 20, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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Rivet Hanger = Da Dweeb ?
Snap, he's onto me...
--- Coz
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 20, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
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That vid was a hack job - but he really thinks he's dyno-mite! What a waste
of a couple of minutes - I kept fast forwarding to see if there would be
any climbing.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Sep 20, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
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Wow.. that video did suck. Where was the climbing? It's really too bad Pelut repeated Intifada and got the idea that trenching was cool.... I can't believe he would just throw that in the opening montage. They really don't get it.
Edit: I don't even aid climb and even I could tell that he was melding that pecker into the crack and trashing the rock.
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
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Wow, rivet hanger... Pelut drilled on Intifada! What's up with that? You accuse me of (I like the up-thread analogy!) deflowering Pelut's whore, but when Mark and I did the SA of Intifada, we never drilled nor added a single hole. Many ascents later your hero, Pelut, has to DRILL on it!?! What's up with that?
I laugh at your WoS references. Since WoS has been "downgraded," Pelut should have NO problem strolling up that route in a couple of days! I urge him to give it a shot. (Uhh... he WILL have to learn to top-step his aiders. That could be a problem.) No need to even BRING a drill up onto the route (we don't trust him with it, btw!). He'll just need smaller hooks than he's used to. But, after all, it's only A3+, so he won't even have to "look out" for any "danger!"
My friend, you can attempt all you want to "get a rise" out of me regarding WoS or the SA of "Look Out! Weak Sauce!" Not gonna happen. I'm pretty secure, and my self-image and success in the world do not revolve around climbing. Even if WoS was actually downgraded, that wouldn't bother me. The WHOLE issue for Mark and I about that route was setting the record straight about what tactics we did and did not use on the FA. That's been settled at this point. Unlike your hero, my ego is not all wrapped up in the rating of such things, and I don't need to make any money climbing... it's not my career. I'm just an amateur, not a way-awesome professional like your hero.
And ALL you say, with ALL the ways you try to dance around the subject, changes nothing about the horrific tactics your hero employs whenever he touches the rock. FA, SA, or just some-A, his tactics are heavy-handed, show NO respect for the rock, show NO understanding of what climbing actually is (conforming oneself to what the rock actually presents), and indicate that he climbs scared ALL the time (sewing up every pitch with at least twice as many placements as are needed). The net effect of his tactics is dramatic and utterly unnecessary rock destruction, as he brings every pitch down to his timid level.
Again, if he's so bad-ass, let him take a shot at WoS, which is only A3+. I think that within ten feet (if he can get that far) he'll realize that what he has been thinking is "hard" is really nothing.
Seriously, Pelut has NO, repeat NO, NO, NO idea what "hard" is, and there are many routes just on El Cap that would teach him that lesson. WoS isn't even a "hard" route! Right? Just look at the rating, so you say. Right? So, seriously, let him try some "moderate" routes here, and perhaps he'll learn how to climb.
Desert rock is NOT for beginners, which is what Pelut seems to be. It's barely even "rock," and it demands special respect and sensitivity (neither of which Pelut seems to have). So he should FIRST learn how to climb on some real rock (such as El Cap granite), learn what "difficulty" actually is and how to negotiate it without heavy-handed tactics, and then, years from now, perhaps he can touch desert rock with some respect!
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
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LOL, Chief, you're right. Maybe after his "successful" outing to the States, he'll just go home and take his drill with him. I'm sure that nothing we're trying to convey even TOUCHES him. This seems to be a guy so taken with himself (just look at the STYLE of those vids) that he is impervious to the perspectives of others. He just KNOWS he's awesome, and nothing can cause him to even begin to doubt it.
I do wish he'd try any number of routes on real rock that could not be as easily hacked up with a few hammer blows. I have this vain hope that he'd learn something. But, you're right. Based on that one vid, it's clear he'd just hack longer and harder.
Best we can do is hack away at his sponsors....
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froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 20, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
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This thread needs a Fish audio rant, badly.
Hear hear!
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Sep 20, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
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edited for inappropriate slur.
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Gene
climber
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Sep 20, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
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WAY...
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BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
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Sep 20, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
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The beak taking a 52 blows of the hammer along with obliterating the fishers with each blow was a sad video. You seem more interested in the GoPro action then placing a beak 12" above the last.
Whats with the sign of the devil after each time you destroy the rock?
The other video he was more wrapped up in the first part of the video with the AC/DC and making the video give someone seizures while spending the rest of the video talking about climbing with no real climbing. waste of 7 minutes of one's life.
While I don't have the balls to climb in the fishers nor A4 I do respect it enough to not dumb something down to my lack of skill or size of my balls.
Respect to those of you who carry the balls as big as church bells and climb with a style of some ethics. Jeremy and Gagner have rocked the sh#t out of the Fishers over the past few years. Give them your topo Satin. Let them confirm or deny your route?
Every blow of that pecker and watching the mud fall away says it all.
52 times over.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 20, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
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Rivet Hanger-
What I think is that your ego was hardly wounded by the not-so-megahyperextreme A5 WOS (just A3+, isn't it?) and you had to discharge your frustration somehow. You downrated Intifada from A6 to A4+ and Ammon downrated your A5 to A3+. Beyer was a little bit more right than you anyway...
Come on man, at least you have what you were searching for: you are the fu--ing superhero of Supertopo and now everybody knows that yours is the biggest Dick in aid climbing planet worlwide! Has Black Diamond contacted you yet?
Dude, do you know what I mean when I say you're using Ad Hominem?
Copypasta, Ad hominem is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or unrelated belief of the person supporting it. Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as a logical fallacy, more precisely an informal fallacy and an irrelevance.
Which is precisely what all of your arguments continue to be - irrelevant. We're looking at solid video and photos of what went down on Pelut's climb, and fact reporting by Jensen backed up by his own photography. You're addressing claims that the climb was a botch almost unanimously by the climbers in this thread (which is almost unheard of on supertopo, let me tell you) by arguing that Richard has an ego, that Wings of Steel wasn't THAT big a deal, that Richard ignored Pelut's posts (which he addressed), that he shouldn't have bolted on a SA (which he also addressed), and that any complaints are the result of prejudice by US climbers (which demonstrates your own lack of cultural sensitivity to how aid climbing is done in the US, and willingness to jump to this sad, tired, nationalistic fallback). Each and every one of these arguments is irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Get real. Pony up, and present something solid.
Maybe email Pelut and get him to post in his defense on this thread or something, but you're just digging a deeper hole continuing on the way you have been.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Sep 20, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
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I figured it was just a matter of time until the ponies showed up...
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 20, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
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I'd hate to disappoint, Captain.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Sep 20, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
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Best juxtaposition of ponies and intelligent content.
+1
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 20, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
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I'll bear it in mind for the future, J-tree. And thanks!
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 20, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
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That video is eye rape.
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BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
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Sep 21, 2012 - 12:02am PT
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I think its in reference to the Spaniards "pony up"
or STFU!!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Sep 21, 2012 - 12:06am PT
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Maybe you guys should lay off the "Spaniards are pussies" thing. This particular Spaniard obviously should have stayed home and stuck with trying to finally get the purple route at the gym, but that doesn't mean there aren't Spaniards who are ten times more badass than you.
Dump on him, not on his country.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Sep 21, 2012 - 12:11am PT
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That's how aid climbing is done? 52 blows knocking a pecker into some hardened mud?
I've been doing it all wrong.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 21, 2012 - 12:19am PT
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Ghost does make a compelling point.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Sep 21, 2012 - 12:39am PT
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Ghost does make a compelling point.
Thanks. And another point is that maybe "The Chief" should think twice about the "Way Homo" crap that he's spewing. I know it'll be tough for him to admit this, but some of those Navy heroes he worked with and constantly points to as people we should look up to were homos.
So dump on Pelut all you want, but keep your homophobia to yourself.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Sep 21, 2012 - 01:18am PT
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Thanks Base, for counting the number of blows while I just kept wincing... dumfounded.
Every one of those strikes causes more blow-out during removal. I seriously think he has not a clue of what the repercussions of his actions are.
Or worse: he knows, but just doesn't care.
Someone please archive this in case he has second thoughts and deletes the videos.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 21, 2012 - 03:15am PT
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Aye, Ghost. Also an important point. I'm not terribly keen on that stuff myself. Just figured Werners gonna Wern.
Also, Mister E, I'm downloading the videos as we speak.
EDIT: Videos downloaded and archived. Feel free to visit Youtube and "Dislike" and comment on why to your hearts content.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 21, 2012 - 03:33am PT
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Ok, ALL YOU are right!
Keep on increasing your inbred coefficient and feeding your prejudice...
Bye!
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 21, 2012 - 03:36am PT
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Keep on increasing your inbred coefficient and feeding your prejudice...
Bye!
Okay, bye Rivet! I'm gonna miss you.
DAMN that's some good cherry beer...
Cheers!
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 21, 2012 - 04:19am PT
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Sorry, I break my promise Da-Dweeb, but just for a moment!
I've seen this picture here in supertopo and I couldn't resist, sorrry!
I guess they are Americans (from USA, because America is much bigger) and they are not placing the gear standing in the last step of the aiders with just 3 pundings seeing the rock is a little bit broken!
So, could they be considered HOMO climbers (altough in Spain homo couples, both men and women, can marry and even adopt a child, so here homo is not excatly an injury...)?
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/photo_view.php?dpid=Pj07PDg4Jygm
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 21, 2012 - 04:26am PT
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so here homo is not excatly an injury...
Nor should it be, and well spoken.
If only the rest of what you had to say was so sensible...
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 21, 2012 - 04:44am PT
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I guess they are Americans (from USA, because America is much bigger) and they are not placing the gear standing in the last step of the aiders with just 3 pundings seeing the rock is a little bit broken!
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/photo_view.php?dpid=Pj07PDg4Jygm
and you know that from a picture of someone cleaning a route?
I hope that you continue posting for the entertainment value but I also hope that you understand that your posts do nothing good for yourself, your side of the story or Pelut. Ad hominem attacks instead of discussing the issue just make you look like a fool.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 21, 2012 - 09:16am PT
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Well, seeing the comments of all those superheroes in this thread, I would not expect a cam every 40 cm in a roof like that. At least they shouldn't accuse Pelut of putting a gear every 18 inches because it's clear they do the same and Pelut's gear is not exactly a bomb-proof cam. At this point, perhaps someone should consider something...
On the other side, Jensen bolted the route, what obviously is drilling. And at least in Europe, although drilling little holes it's not an ethic action, drilling bolts and rivets it's really worst and does not have any possible justification.
But, if your high inbred coefficient does not allow you to admit it, that's another thing...
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 21, 2012 - 09:29am PT
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And at least in Europe, although drilling little holes it's not an ethic action, drilling bolts and rivets it's really worst and does not have any possible justification.
But, if your high inbred coefficient does not allow you to see it, that's another thing...
What about trying to follow the ethics in the area that you are visiting?
Why the insults in almost all posts? Do you believe that insults helps your argument?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 21, 2012 - 09:39am PT
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Homo is not an injury?
In addition, begin reading the thread since the beginning and you'll find who was insulting first...
Anyway, you are right, I'll try to contain myself even in the case of evident prejudice over Non-American aid climbers (which I think explains a lot of things in addition of ego).
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 21, 2012 - 09:48am PT
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So you must continue with insults if some other people insult you? I am not sure who started the insults but it was the route that started the discussion. A route that was put up in really bad style according to the local ethics and you and the FA team still do not seem to understand that.
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 21, 2012 - 09:56am PT
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even in the case of evident prejudice over Non-American aid climbers (which I think explains a lot of things in addition of ego).
The problem is that the route in question do not show the FA team in any good light.
I don't doubt that things like prejudice, locals vs non locals, americans vs non-americans sometimes matter in discussions about routes but it is obvious to me that that is not the main issue about this route.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 21, 2012 - 10:06am PT
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"A route that was put up in really bad style according to the local ethics and you and the FA team still do not seem to understand that."
Let's accept that's true, ok (I don't see why you believe so fiercely Jensen. Just a bunch o photos...)? The FA ascent did it really wrong, that would be perfectly correct here and in Europe.
But, why create a web page to announce that even before have done the SA? Why not even answer the FA team callings for a meeting (although just for saying how wrong where they)? Why retrobolting the route and placing even belay chains on the route (is this respect?)? Why saying they are really bad climbers when they have repeated hard routes like Intifada or Weird Science and have made new routes in Baffin and hard routes in Spain? Why the first reaction when you know they've repeted your route (I mean Weird Science) must be I'll be there watching the havoc they've done instead of I want to contact with them to know their opinion? Why the first reaction when you know they've opened another route in Kingfisher must be another shitty homo route? Why not showing a little bit more of respect and a little bit less of perjudice?
Since my point of view perhaps just because David and Ester weren't born in your part of the pool...
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 21, 2012 - 10:48am PT
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The Chief I appreciate your not so hostile attitude and your respect to me when not writing "slang" that unfortunately I cannot understand.
I'm not here to defend Pelut and Ester, this action corresponds to them and that's is what I answered to Paul Gagner in an older post. They are who should answer some questions. I just was shocked of seeing how people in supertopo supported Jensen's attitude and his retrobolting of the route under a weak pretext.
As far as I know, I think that your vision of aid climbing is very accurate. But I also have to say that American aid climbing community is not so critic with itself than when climbers come from abroad. Perhaps you know this thread, but it seems very interesting (specially the most recent posts): http://www.mountainproject.com/v/utah/moab_area/fisher_towers/105717394
I guess we'll agree there's not too much pungency in these words and that perhaps even a MAster like Beyer did not followed the clean ethics 100%.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Sep 21, 2012 - 10:54am PT
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Rivet Hanger, are you actually trying to scold Jensen about bolting ethics after the FA drilled more holes on the wall than swiss cheese? Srsly?
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Sep 21, 2012 - 10:55am PT
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It is ovious that you and your fellow conquistadores truly fail to understand this philosophy of Clean Climbing ethics.
"Clean" is not in their vocabulary. Have you seen the base of their cliffs? I've never seen so much garbage in my life. The climbing was awesome, but the litter piles stole from the experience.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 21, 2012 - 11:00am PT
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Come on Pitbulls, read a little bit...
//Beyer told me that on this route, and on World's End, he developed the innovative technique of drilling two (or was it three?) 1/4" holes immediately above each other and then pounding in an alumihead (the old rectangular Forrest versions work best for this) into the resulting slot. Trenching for the Fishers. He also told me he did not want this printed in Bjornstad's guidebook. This gets a little weird years later when someone tries a second ascent, and the slots have degraded and eroded out ( the rock can erode really fast; I have actually seen Beyer copperheads on top of little protrusions of rock); and there is no mention of any of this in Beyer's own descriptions/topos. What's a second ascentionist to do?In the case of World's End, the second ascentionist retreated, baffled, and, after a long phone call to Beyer, returned to the fray armed with a drill, and rather more liberal attitude to using it.With Intifada, the second ascentionists, once they realized that there were lots of driled holes already on the route, figured there was no harm in deepening existing holes. I was camping in the Fishers when Tim Wagner did the third ascent of Intifada. This was a fine effort, done solo. As I recall, he told me he had no clue about who was responsible for the numerous holes all over the route. He just used the holes he could, and drilled others out deeper as needed (ie if they had degraded/flared out and were unusable).// Steve "Crusher" Bartlett
Swiss cheese? Retrobolting after long phone call to Beyer? Tim Wagner using the holes he could and drilling new ones? Where are they from? Do we make a huge fire and burn'em all together with Pelut and Ester under pretext of sinners? Do we include Jensen in this purification?
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 21, 2012 - 11:35am PT
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Let me try to make this clear, Rivet:
You do not chose a "line" that is not a line, that does not follow a series of features, and therefore requires a ridiculous amount of holes. Mistake number 1.
You do not fill holes with non-standard, oddball, proprietary gear that will be unsuable for parties that follow...like broken off wooden pegs and goofy fat heads. The goal is a sustainable, repeatable route with minimal modification to the rock. Mistake number 2.
You do not pound on pins to the point of destroying the placement and making it unusable for future parties. Mistake number 3.
You do not place these overdriven pins every 2' because you're too scared or lacking in skills to get out of your third steps on vertical to sub vertical terrain. Mistake number 4.
You do not then spray to the world that your wholly manufactured, unsustainable hole ladder, with minimal technical difficulty and artifically induced "danger" like ridiculous "hook belays" that actually have bomber drilled placements incorporated, is the "hardest aid route in the world". Mistake number 5.
I could go on, but that's not getting my work done. Just accept that your hero is a fraud, a charlatan, a publicity whore hack, who is full of more sh#t than a Porta Potty at a Chili Cookoff.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 21, 2012 - 11:36am PT
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He also told me he did not want this printed in Bjornstad's guidebook
You didn't find that fishy?
We should always be open and honest about what we do - attempting to cover up is what really irks blue collar 'merican climbers.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 21, 2012 - 11:44am PT
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Elcapinyoazz, please, reading comprehension...
My English level is not good and from Steve Bartlett words I can understand a lot of things, even the alumiheads and the hole filling, the erosion of the Tower's rock and oh surprise, how will this vertical mud react when cleaning the pitch (something that is obvious watching Jensen photos, indeed)...
We can argue in another thread if this is right or not (I admit is not the best way), but you should admit that perhaps all you were too though with Pelut and Ester and very soft with Beyer & co. and this is not a pretty fair position. Just a matter of American proud?
And please, we agreed that no more insults, didn't we? Come on!
And after all, and perhaps the most important, who asures all you that Jensen did not drilled those pretty holes where the angles are placed in his web page video of the anchors belay? He was alone up there, wasn't he? He says he'll release a video, will see if the holes where there yet or he drilled'em. At bottom, he retrobolted the route without remorse, so any remorse for drilling a nail hole or a pair?
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 21, 2012 - 12:13pm PT
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I don't believe that people have been soft on Beyer. I have at least read a lot of negative things about him and his routes here on supertopo.
It was a long time since I read what Jensen wrote about Intifada but I believe that he was very negative about both the route and Beyer.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Sep 21, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
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And after all, and perhaps the most important, who asures all you that Jensen did not drilled those pretty holes where the angles are placed in his web page video of the anchors belay? He was alone up there, wasn't he? He says he'll release a video, will see if the holes where there yet or he drilled'em. At bottom, he retrobolted the route without remorse, so any remorse for drilling a nail hole or a pair?
So wait a minute, a guy who has been completely forthcoming about retro-drilling a route with rivets, even going so far as to name his choice of rivet, is going to lie about drilling an angle? Do you even think this stuff through before you post it? If he was going to lie, why not just drill bolts and then claim the FA team placed them? Try using Occam's razor once in a while.
Also, many of the drilled placements visible in Jensen's pics are the same as those in the pics that Jeremy posted, which are from Palut's own video.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 21, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
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Really, do you see an three angle on Jeremy's posted photos?
Towers are a quiet place, but not so much because a person with a binocles would have seen the bolts drilled by Pelut....
I'm just saying that you blindly relay on Jensen's photos and laught at Pelut & Ester without any criteria...
Indeed, I'm always trying to say and demostarte the same... If they were Americans...
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 21, 2012 - 12:27pm PT
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You are probably right, but then you should admit that Jensen used the same ugly tactics on the SA of Intifada and even in WOS (bat hook is what I understand it is?) and he has never been critisized as hard as Pelut and in addition he has recieved ALL the credibility in this thread.
That's an option, of course, but let me think it's not the fairest one!
And Thanks to you and Paul, I didn't know you where the authors of this SA. By the way, is Paul now working in "Sons of Anarchy"? (It's just a joke, no intention of attack him! But he looks like the staring with a helmet and sun glasses!)
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Sep 21, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
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...then you should admit that Jensen... has never been critisized as hard as Pelut.
lol
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Sep 21, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
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Just for the record and in spite of RH's efforts to confuse the issue, this thread is about ONE route, not WOS, not Intifada, or other climbers. This is not Americans vs Foreigners. This is not "let's talk about other routes and other climbers", and if they screwed up maybe this screwup isn't so bad either.
It is about Look Out, Danger and the style in which the FA was done.
If RH could confine his comments to whether he feels the FA used an appropriate number of drilled holes to create the route or not, I think much of the butt-hurt could be avoided.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Sep 21, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
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Pere Larocalla, (RH)
I would like to apologize for my use of the word h*mo. It was inappropriate and not how I would like to be treated.
Beyer has recieved more than his share of flack for his heavy handed tactics on Intifada and Richard and Mark basically proved that he brought the route down to his level.
I realized that, on the first pitch at least, Beyer had bypassed natural hook placements, and had used the drill instead to trench heads which weren't needed. We rated the pitch A4. Had he hooked everything that was available, instead of trenching, Beyer would have had an A5 ground-fall pitch. Instead, Beyer appeared to have "brought the pitch down to his level".
You should read their trip report. http://www.jensenconsultations.com/climbing/intifada/intifada.html
Why did you not include this part of Crusher's statement from Mountain Project?
Anyway, three points/slanderous comments:
1. If a route in the Fishers employs an indeterminate number of drilled holes/slots, and the first ascentionist doesn't telll anyone, it seems quite understandable to me that folks, once they realize what was done, will drill deeper holes_and, what is far worse, if they cannot find a hole, they'll drill a new one because they will rationalize that the old hole has eroded out altogether.
2. What do other folks think of this trenching technique?"The second ascent drilled some of the holes deeper to place baby angles." If a hole was drilled by the first ascentionist, is it bad to drill it deeper? If so, why?
3. Anyone who thinks that Jim Beyer, on those A4/5 leads, was taking out his 25-foot Stanly tape and methodically limiting himself to no more than 1/4" deep probably still believes that Clinton resolutely refused to inhale.
What Steve is saying is that this style of climbing is not sustainable and damages the rock for future generations. It also causes future ascensionists to have to drill thier own placements if the FA teams's placements are eroded or they can't find them.
What I don't think you quite understand is that 1 Hole = 1 Bolt. It doesn't matter what you put in that hole, you are still giving up and destroying the rock so that you can advance your climb. Hence that logic, you might as well put a bolt in the hole and leave the rock more or less intact for future generations to try and improve on your style. With that logic in mind, Pelut basically made a bolt ladder up the side of the Titan, but then didn't even have the courtesy to fill it with metal, so the second ascent could follow his line.
If you have to drill holes all the way up what's the point??? It's like Gdavis says you might as well go climb the side of a building! A6 is a false rating. It doesn't exist. The fact that Pelut didn't do enough research to discover that and is now following Beyers horrible example and desecrating the rock is a real shame.
If you want to establish a route like this, I would highly suggest not reporting to anyone at all and certainly not claiming that it was the hardest route in the world when almost any climber with little aid experience and enough time could easily accomplish the same task.
I hope Pelut sees the errors of his ways and discovers the challenges that real climbing have to offer!
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Sep 21, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
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Hey Rivet Fuk Fernando Alonso.
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
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Long Post Warning....
Rivet Hanger, I believe that you are making a legitimate form of argument when you essentially accuse us of having a double standard. I take you to be saying something like: "Look, you guys, all these other well-known climbers do the very same things you are bashing on Pelut for." So, when we say that this thread is not about other climbs, in your mind we're basically refusing to acknowledge that double standard.
So, let me try to be very systematic here.
You take a couple of pictures showing Mark on Intifada with placements close together, and you call the placements "bombproof cams." So, how can I bash on Pelut for close placements, when me and Mark have done the "same thing?"
Three responses....
One: the placements were not bombproof cams. In fact, one of them popped shortly before those pictures were taken. The cams are "close together" because that crack is much more flared than the pics indicate (and in two dimensions). As Mark would try to lean farther to the left, the cam he was on would rotate slightly, causing it to pop out. So, Mark had to very carefully stay directly beneath each placement in order to keep making progress. That limited his reach (and moving sideways necessitates shorter reaches anyway).
Two: comparing delicate, flared, sideways cam placements to straight-up, drilled placements on open rock is ludicrous. When you're drilling vertically, you have complete control over your placement-distance. You simply reach UP as far as you can (or are willing to) to drill the next placement. NOTHING about the rock itself or the features of it limits your placement-distance. And you OBVIOUSLY reach as far as you can to reduce the amount of drilling you have to do!
Three: you can find this or that picture of somebody doing "something like" what we're bashing on Pelut for, such as the short reaches between placements. But, as in the case of those pics of Mark on Intifada, that will involve very short sections of natural climbing, and with good reason (as I've explained above). What I decry about Pelut's placement-distance on "Look Out" is that the WHOLE "route" is drilled up with VERY short reaches! And, because it's NOTHING but drilling, he COULD have extended the placements much farther apart. It's like he just didn't care HOW MANY holes he was drilling, and he drilled so many to "sew it up" to reduce even the minimal risk.
So, there is no double standard here. Drilling is VERY different from natural climbing, because you are not even TRYING to conform to what the rock presents. You are just doing TO the rock whatever you feel like doing. So, when Pelut drills an ENTIRE route as a hole-ladder, one thing we can legitimately "bash on" about it is that he COULD have drilled 1/3 as many holes as he did... if he would only have been willing to get higher in his aiders. Nothing about your waving around pics of Mark TOUCHES any of these points.
Drilling a hole-ladder is not "climbing" anyway, because CLIMBING is about taking whatever risks are necessary to conform to what the ROCK PRESENTS to you! If you are not even trying to conform to what the rock presents, then you are NOT climbing! So, on the FA of "Look Out," Pelut was NOT even CLIMBING. And there is no double standard in saying that!
You can then respond that on this or that climb, others have also drilled. And you'll point out Intifada as an example, where Beyer employed very heavy-handed tactics to do the FA. (And, by the way, Steve, Mark and I did not drill any holes deeper to use angles in them. The angle holes are Beyers, as my pics show.)
I've very publicly bashed on Beyer for his tactics on Intifada, as have many others on this very thread. NOBODY here is giving Beyer a "pass" just because he's American. And there's no double standard. We ALL hate heavy-handed tactics, and we bash on them when we discover them. And, just as I reported what I found on the SA of "Look Out," I reported what we found on the SA of Intifada. NO double standard in the "bashing" that's gone on.
But, you go on to claim that I myself employ a double standard. How dare I drill on El Cap and then bash on Pelut for drilling on "Look Out?" So your argument goes.
Okay, regarding my own FAs, your trying to compare granite routes to sandstone routes is like comparing apples and giraffes! Both have DNA, and that's about as far as that comparison can go. There are two main issues here....
First, sustainability matters! On a proper FA you should be keeping subsequent ascents foremost in mind! You should constantly be thinking, "Is what I'm doing here going to screw the next ascent team? Are they going to have to do additional drilling to get past this section? Am I leaving something here that can be followed by a competent part with standard gear without a ton of additional drilling?"
Second, RISK matters! Climbing is ABOUT taking the risks the ROCK demands that you take. And REAL CLIMBING is about embracing that RISK in order to ascend. RISK is what makes climbing something different from hiking and gymnastics.
So, with those two principles in mind, let's again revisit your claims about my inconsistency to bash on Pelut after I've done something like Winds of Change.
First, it should be noted that "enhancing" micro-hook placements is NOT universally accepted. There are MANY (as I would call them) "purists" (perhaps even on this very thread) that would "bash" on me for enhancing hooks on Winds of Change. Many climbers consider even "enhancing" to be nothing but "drilling," and they would state that I just drilled a "bolt ladder" up Winds of Change.
However, there is a very legitimate reason that reflects NO double standard, why I have gotten very, very little "bashing" for "enhancing" on Winds of Change. And that reason really explicates the HUGE difference between such tactics and what Pelut did on "Look Out." So, let's compare them, shall we?
Like Wings of Steel, Winds of Change ascends a less-than-vertical slab covered with micro-flakes. As Mark and I demonstrated (and has now been confirmed by a very credible SA), such features can be used entirely without enhancement, resulting in a sustainable and risky route that conforms in decent style with what the ROCK presents.
However, exactly how you "play" that risk can go two ways. You can do NO enhancing of the tiny flakes, in which case you can never "run it out" very, very far; the flakes that are usable entirely without enhancement are not continuous, so full-on holes must be drilled to put the sequences of flakes together. The resulting climb is still ABOUT what the rock presents. The drilling simply links features, and the climb is ABOUT the hooking!
Alternatively, you could go the direction with the hooking I did on Winds of Change. On that route, my goal was to "run it out" FAR more than we could on Wings of Steel, drilling far fewer full-on holes into the rock in order to link the sequences of flakes. That meant "enhancing" the flakes in a way we had not done before. So, very tiny "enhancements" meant fewer bolts/rivets.
These "enhancements" are not (to my mind, and to the minds of many) full-on "holes" because they BARELY "penetrate" the surface of the rock. They simply make an existing flake "good enough" to work to keep the run-out going. You are still using EXISTING features of the ROCK, and the goal is STILL to CONFORM to what the rock presents and embrace the risk that such conformity entails.
The point is that there two basic approaches to drilling on an FA. 1) Drill in such a way as to do as little rock damage as possible, while keeping the risks of conformity to the features of the rock as high as possible; 2) Drill to reduce risk by reducing usage of the actual features, thereby increasing net rock damage in order to make the climb easier for you.
Winds of Change followed the first principle. "Look Out" followed the second principle.
As has been amply demonstrated at this point, my FAs are sustainable and repeatable without additional drilling. My FAs conform to what the rock presents. They are ABOUT the features of the rock, and they embrace the risks entailed by what the rock presents. I don't "drill a route down to my level," and I'm quite willing to back off of an FA that I think is actually drill-reliant.
But we have to be even MORE CAREFUL on sandstone!
On sandstone, you have to be even MUCH more careful about the principle of sustainability!!! You have to be even MORE sensitive to the long-term effect your actions are going to have. You have to pay even closer attention to how what you leave behind CAN be used by subsequent ascent parties.
What Pelut did on "Look Out" was ABOUT the drilling! There is NO LINE there to follow at all. And he drilled for virtually EVERY placement. This was not drilling to "link together" existing features! And his drilling wasn't even arguably-legitimate "enhancements" of existing features (many, including climbing's greatest, have "enhanced" existing features).
No, something like 80% of Pelut's drilled placements have NO NATURAL FEATURE to "attach to" in ANY sense! The entire "route" is just manufactured! My retro-fitting his useless holes with rivets/bolts just ACKNOWLEDGES the FACT of what that whole "route" really is. It is a hole-ladder, not "climbing," and NOT a "route."
And Pelut took no real risk on "Look Out," even though he THOUGHT he did! One thing we hate about his placement-distance is that we KNOW what it means: It means that he "sewed it up" to REDUCE the fall danger. You even admit this when you talk about how close together his pecker placements are in the video clip! You KNOW, as do we, that "sewing it up" reduces risk!
It's one thing to "sew it up" if you are a beginner and using CLEAN aid tactics, so that your "sewing it up" doesn't damage the rock! But it's a totally different thing to "sew it up" with HOLES, and then think to yourself and spray to the whole world that you are taking great risks, and even NAME your route "Look Out! DANGER!!!"
That's why I renamed the route: "Look Out! Weak Sauce!" Danger is the furthest thing from that "route!"
Since you are determined to draw contrasts between my FAs and Pelut's, and because I do think it's legitimate for you/Pelut to accuse me of having a double standard as I judged "Look Out," I'm answering you forthrightly on that very point.
For you to claim that my drilling on Winds of Change and Pelut's drilling on "Look Out" are the same thing is a completely unsustainable argument. It's a legitimate FORM of argument. It just doesn't work in this case.
I've done Pelut's route now, and I have reported precisely about what I found there. So, let's continue the comparison. Now, let Pelut do one of my routes. Let him do either Wings of Steel or Winds of Change. Both routes can be repeated without additional drilling (IF he is willing to top-step his aiders and be willing to risk LONG falls down a slab). Both routes HAVE been repeated without additional drilling. And both routes demonstrate how I "play the game" when it comes to the use of the drill during attempts to sustain risk in accordance with what the ROCK presents.
Pelut will find in BOTH cases that the routes are ABOUT natural features rather than ABOUT drilling. He will find in BOTH cases that the routes follow a natural line of features and that BOTH routes require you to take significant risks in order to conform yourself to what the ROCK presents. Neither route can reasonably be called a "hole ladder." Perhaps Pelut would learn something from such an ascent. And then neither he nor you would be trying to make comparisons that do not work.
Finally, on the subject of learning something: I have talked about how different the desert rock is to something like El Cap granite. So, let me be VERY CLEAR on this point.
I have a deep humility when it comes to desert rock! I love how Clint Eastwood, with his wonderfully menacing voice, says: "A man's GOT to know his limitations." And that line has rung in my ears through the decades of my climbing "career." Here's what that means to me....
I believe that I am more than "merely competent" when it comes to aid climbing. Particularly on granite, I know some things that few do. And I'm willing to take risks that few are. I know how to "play the game" with the best of them... on GRANITE. But I DO NOT believe that that competency fully extends to desert rock!
I believe that I can REPEAT any EXISTING desert aid climb in as good as or better than the style in which it was put up. But that does NOT mean that I feel competent to PUT UP new desert aid climbs, and I have not yet done a desert FA.
Why???
Because I simply don't have the necessary confidence that I know ALL the tricks to PUT UP a top-quality route by contemporary standards. I mean, I can look at what somebody else did and think, "Oh, yeah, I get it. Yeah, I can place and stand on that." Or even, "Okay, but I can reach further here and do a bit better than the FA." But that confidence is a FAR CRY from having the confidence to think that I'm going to PUT UP a whole new line in top-quality form!!!
I have genuine respect for the current masters of the desert aid game, and it's great that we have some of them on this very thread, such as Paul and Jeremy. You can call this part "dik sucking" if you like, but what it REALLY is is that I acknowledge my BETTERS in many different contexts!
I've seen lines at the Fishers and nearby canyons that I think would be great to do, and I only live 5 1/2 hours away from that area. But I haven't done those routes because I'm not willing to even RISK botching them in the slightest.
Again, I can do a SUBSEQUENT ascent of anything. I'm quite willing to take the risks to conform to what the rock presents, and I'm competent enough at the aid game to FOLLOW what anybody else does on any medium. But I simply don't feel that I'm enough of a master on desert rock to do FAs on it.
Do you GET the point, Rivet hanger? I have great confidence in one arena. But I know my limitations, and I have respect for the sport (what REAL climbing IS) and for those more competent than me in another arena.
By contrast, since you are determined to compare me and Pelut, what Pelut did was this: He came over here to do just some-subsequent-ascent of a route (Intifada) of which he had not even bothered to find out the (long!) history. So, he did that route in IGNORANCE... and then he drilled even on that route! He looked at the tactics he saw on that route and thereby believed that he understood TACTICS in general (wow... WRONG!!!). He then employed even MORE HEAVY-HANDED tactics on the FA of "Look Out," taking little risk and CONFORMING himself to NOTHING. He then spewed to the WORLD about how bad-ass this "route" was, claiming that this was the hardest thing EVER done in HISTORY! And in so doing, he even DISPLAYED his ignorance by basing his (ridiculous) rating on the rating of the FA of Intifada, when that rating didn't stand up to even the first subsequent inspection of the route!
So, let's contrast....
His HUBRIS is amazing, and I don't share it!
His TACTICS are despicable, and I have never employed tactics even remotely comparable!
His "route" is no line at all, and I have never done anything like it!
His willingness to take real risks is pathetic, and I have spend my whole life as a climber taking risks!
His DESIRE to conform to what the rock presents appears to be non-existent, while I have always climbed with THIS being of paramount importance.
And his inability to recognize when he is attempting to operate beyond his competency is EPIC, and I don't share that ignorance either.
So, you should just GIVE UP with the "double-standard" argument. You've tried it. It's fine that you've tried it. But it DOES NOT WORK, my friend. I repeat, you've hitched your cart to the wrong horse. If you have any intellectual honestly, you'll be looking to unhitch.
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
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Now, let's get to cases....
As the caption says, this is basically a big bat-head. Notice the double cables. This is a bat-head pounded in on top of another bat-head. And it's so bomber that it couldn't even be jerked out! There's no risk here... this is just a bolt!
Now, let's put that placement in its bigger context....
Now we see that this bashie is just part of a line of holes, with the next hole not even 24-inches above the first bashie.
Notice the STATE of that next hole! That mess isn't usable. The edges are totally blown-out from having the resident bashie jerked out of it. On soft sandstone, jerking out bashies like that almost always just blows the hole out, as we see here. The only way to make a mess like that work would be to re-drill it.
However, fortunately for me, in this particular case, I was able to get past the blown-out hole, because Pelut was sewing it up, as the next pic shows....
Pulling back even a bit more, we can now clearly see three holes in proper relation to each other. Notice that there isn't two-feet between any of them. And two of the three are these big bat-heads that are so bomber they couldn't even be jerked out.
So, I was able to completely bypass the middle hole (useless as it is) because Pelut drilled THREE holes in must closer proximity to each other than I would have drilled two!
And it's not like Pelut wasn't TRYING to extract these "precarious" placements. MOST of them were jerked out, blowing open the holes upon exit. And many just could not be extracted! Here we see one that was starting to have cable damage from attempted extraction. Notice how BURIED this thing is!!! And Pelut thinks that a line of these things, planted ever 18 to 24 inches apart, is A5 and harder.
Here is just one example of a "trenched head" employed by the FA party. This isn't even what we would call a "head." This is just another giant bashie in a "slot" instead of a straight-in hole.
On the FA team's original topo, you'll note some weird symbols that look like "spoons" sticking out of the "cracks" in places. Pelut actually denoted his "bat-heads" with this symbol. So, he thought that there was some significant difference between placements like this one just above, which he did not denote on the topo, compared to the "bat-heads" like I show further above, which he did denote on the topo.
I have yet to understand the thinking in differentiating between "mini bolts," "bat-heads," and the scads and scads of other full-on drilling, such as this last pic shows.
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
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Now a bit more, with some contrast....
On the section of the first pitch that I retro-fitted with rivets, notice that my placements are more than six feet apart. This is on the same rock at the same angle.
The lighter-colored rock surrounding the rivets is because "sheets" of friable layers flake off as you start to drill. As this happens, you have to "get down" to actual "rock" before you even end up with a "hole" rather than just a flare. The discoloration fades pretty quickly in that environment.
I did this sort of thing many, many times. This was just a particularly ironic case of it, which warranted a pic. Here you see that a tiny and very short natural seam took a small pecker. And RIGHT NEXT to a deeply-drilled bashie! Of course, my pecker could not be BURIED into the rock by ANY amount of pounding, which is probably why Pelut didn't imagine to use something like this.
If you look closely, you can see that just above the pecker is a blown-out trench. Again, we have a very tiny, short, shallow seam here, which takes a pecker tip. I considered such a pecker very good, being in about half-way. This is a small-sized pecker, but... how much metal do you need in the wall when this is supposed to be a "body weight" climb???
And, in another ironic instance, here is a small pecker tip IN a trench. Again, you can see a very thin, short seam that would take a good pecker... IF it's not over-driven and thereby ruined! And when I removed this pecker, it left just a tiny, thin slot where the blade had been. My placement could be reused many, many times (with like sensitivity to the soft rock) with NO need to use the drill in the slightest!
Next... a bit more discussion of the infamous "hook anchor."
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
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A number of things should be noted from this pic.
First, that hook ledge is much more sloped than any pic angle can really show. So, to solve that problem, the FA team simply drilled DEEP holes for the hook tips to sit in. At first the ledge was so covered by mud that I couldn't find where the "hook anchor" had been. I spent over one day on the "clean" doing excavations to discover the story.
After clearing away all the mud, I couldn't see how the hooks had worked. So, I started lightly running my fingers over the ledge in the "right places" considering the "throw" of most claws. I began to feel slight dimples, which I then took the tip of a baby angle to "excavate" a bit more. Immediately the holes began appearing.
The soft mud in the holes contrasted dramatically with the surrounding solid rock, so it was very easy to find the holes once you figured out where to look.
They are deep. I didn't even dig them out all the way, but hook tips are IN the rock rather than ON the rock.
Next, notice the DEEPLY drilled holes fore and aft of the "hook anchor."
Now, Rivet Hanger suggests that I drilled those holes (or drilled them deeper) to discredit Pelut. I have two responses.
First, I didn't need to do ANYTHING to discredit Pelut. Unless somebody is going to try to float the insane idea that I drilled ALL those holes just to discredit Pelut, he discredited himself just fine without any "help" from me. And his own videos show him drilling those holes. So: FAIL!
Second, if I was going to drill those holes deeper, then why didn't I drill them ALL the way, so that the angles would go in to the eye? If my goal was to "discredit Pelut," angles to the eye would be much more dramatic than what I actually found there.
Finally, as a totally separate point, I don't lie. I have been more forthcoming about the details of my ascents than was even in my best interests to be. The idea that I'm lying about this ascent is just poppycock.
Now, in the upper hole, the one just above the "hook anchor," we've all seen in the videos/pics from the FA team that they placed a bashie there. However, I've searched and searched, and challenge anybody to post up a pic showing that lower hole, the one RIGHT below the "hook anchor."
Notice in the vids that the "panning" stops before going "too far" to the right. Notice that EVERY pic is angled such that that lower placement cannot be seen (although we do see a rack of gear hanging from something). No pic or vid sequence I can find shows the WHOLE anchor WITH that placement.
I don't know WHAT the FA team was putting into these holes AS the ascent was actually taking place. I'm not accusing them of anything in particular. ALL I know, and can demonstrate, is that MANY of the "bashie holes" were very, very deep... in many cases deep enough to take bomber angles!
The "hook anchor" was totally unnecessary, being nowhere near a full pitch out. And a really good natural anchor can be had fifty feet higher, where I anchored. So, the "hook anchor" was a short-pitch gimmick TO get the supposed "death-anchor" (that wasn't in any case) TO sustain the ridiculous rating.
Of special note on this point is that the placement of the "hook anchor" threw the entire anchoring sequence off, so that the FA repeatedly anchored in sub-optimal spots just because that's where one of their (short) pitches "ended," which is because everything "sequenced" at that point FROM the position of the "hook anchor."
I just ignored their anchor sequence and set up anchors where they make the most sense. Of course, in many cases, that meant doing full-length pitches.
Well, that's as much as I can MAKE some time to do at this point.
Enjoy!
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Sep 22, 2012 - 01:30am PT
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Just stoopid PERIOD. Doesn't matter what bizarro aid-planet you hail from.
I generally refrain from commenting on any route I haven't laid eyes on in person but the photos are pretty clear. To the depths of my core I just don't "get" this "route". I refuse to call this breed of vertical progression "climbing" .
Drilling a hole-ladder is not "climbing" anyway, because CLIMBING is about taking whatever risks are necessary to conform to what the ROCK PRESENTS to you! If you are not even trying to conform to what the rock presents, then you are NOT climbing!
^^^ Pretty much hits the bashie on the head.
This thread rocks BTW. Carry on.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 22, 2012 - 01:41am PT
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This is totally a function of the sponsorship whore syndrome.
People who climb just to climb don't do sh!t like this.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Sep 22, 2012 - 07:40am PT
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WOW! Those pictures are just something else. What a disgraceful mess the FA was. If they were just going to drill straight up and were trying to manufacture a rating, why not just use bathooks the entire way?
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Sep 22, 2012 - 11:34am PT
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Like sands (mud) through an hour glass so are the days of our lives....
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Sep 22, 2012 - 11:59am PT
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I thought you were talking about the pictures mixing ponies with final fantasy.
C'mon Dweeb! Don't dilute the ponies message!
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Sep 22, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
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Where is Pere today? No reply sir?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 22, 2012 - 02:07pm PT
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He emailed me that he's headed to the Facelift. Said to meet him in the Camp 4 parking lot.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Sep 22, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
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Damn... no where near there... maybe Anders will take him on :)
Pere nothing to say?
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 22, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
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Good point J-tree. I probably should stop posting while drunk. Fixed...
No Pere, though? Perhaps he finally made good on his promise to abscond from this thread...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 23, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
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Alrighty then... last pics. We'll start with some final gear pics.
This is even blanker than the section Pelut "mini-bolted," called "the wall." So, why drilled bashies here instead of mini bolts?
Oh, right, because THIS is an anchor. So it's just GOT to be "heroic" (read: idiotic). If you're going to drill massive holes like this, WHY not fill them with something sustainable (and safe, since THIS is just fake "difficulty")?
Moving on to the wooden peg tactic (in some of its various permutations)....
With the saw marks still plainly visible on the wall 2 years after the FA, we see just one version of the wooden peg tactic Pelut used. Not sure what he did here, as there is no sign of a piton being driven in alongside. My guess is he slung it, because this one was BURIED (unlike some of them).
The (I guess) typical tactic: Big hole, wooden peg, soft-iron piton. Wow... sporty! Note the excellent small pecker just below.
So, what were the "mini bolts?" Here's examples....
Okayyyy... my only question is: Why these here instead of drilled bashies? And the correlative question: Why drilled bashies on most of the blank rock instead of "mini bolts?"
Now to a couple of fun pics of my own placements....
Remember these? Ahh, my set of rollers is near and dear to my heart! These make great placements where nothing else will. I don't know what the story is with this hole. It looks drilled out, but not like any of their other holes. And its pretty flared in two dimensions. Locker roller placement, though.
Second-to-the-last pitch (A1/A2). It gets WIDE in spots, but turnbuckle to the rescue. LOL. Cheap, and infinitely adjustable, and perfect for wide and flared stuff like this. Look closely, and you can see the hole drilled into the back of the crack. More drill work on this pitch by the FA team, although it takes locker stoppers and cams almost the whole way.
Far below, note the red slings. Those are where the wedge/piton combo and my good pecker are.
By taking my own line near to but often not ON the FA line, I was able to bypass a lot of drilling by using small, discontinuous features like this one. That seam is really small, but it took 1/8-inch of a pecker tip. Can't tell by this pic, but it's steep/overhung through this part. Dangling from that tip was "fun" while looking at a 30-footer onto a couple of their "mini bolts."
I tried and tried to beat it in farther... must have hit it 151 times, but it just wouldn't go in any more (just kidding). :-)
Finally, another little tip I got to work in a small seam the FA team never saw. Of course, you can't make something this bottomed work by beating on it 52 times, and if you just blow out the surrounding rock, you get nothing! (Note the small flake-off next to it, even as gentle as I was!)
I'll end with just a few pics of the me and the summit....
Partway up (my numbers) P3. Those "fishing glasses" are the bomb for the Fishers. Wrap-around, polycarbonate lenses (polarized, of course), and the special touch for old farts: small "reading lenses" as sort of "bifocals" where you look down. Must-have for older eyes. :-)
What a gorgeous place! How anyone could come here with a heavy-handed mentality is beyond me!
Glad to be done with it! Wow, I'm getting old, and you can see why I don't grow a beard! Scary!!!
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un de tants
climber
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Sep 24, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
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ey gente,miraros tambien estas fotitos,estan chulas...
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un de tants
climber
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Sep 24, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
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primer largo despues de pasar richi,quien taladra para poner cooper heads y dejarlos??
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Sep 24, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
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So, very tiny "enhancements" meant fewer bolts/rivets.
These "enhancements" are not (to my mind, and to the minds of many) full-on "holes" because they BARELY "penetrate" the surface of the rock. They simply make an existing flake "good enough" to work to keep the run-out going. You are still using EXISTING features of the ROCK, and the goal is STILL to CONFORM to what the rock presents and embrace the risk that such conformity entails.
I love how his sh#t is all huge and heinous and blown out and yours is all
"mini" bolts and "micro" enhancements.
Exactly how is micro "enhancing" conforming to what the rock gives you?
That's kinda like saying "Those whores gave it to the whole football team, but we only gave it to the running backs, and even then only the tip."
Dude, you're so pure.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Sep 24, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
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What's all that mean in English? No offense meant, my Spanish is spotty.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Sep 24, 2012 - 03:26pm PT
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Bombproof belays?
I am bring wood spikes on my next FA.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Sep 24, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
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Hey Richard, just a question from a guy who does very little aid climbing these days. . Wouldn't a pink tricam work in your 2-D rollerball placement?
(I've done enough aid climbing in the Fishers to know that I don't want to go anywhere near a discussion that involves hooking on Cutler sandstone, but I always found the pink tricam to be incredibly helpful in the damaged, flared placements that are so common there.)
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un de tants
climber
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Sep 24, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
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aqui ya quedaron claras tus intenciones de lo que ivas hacer,aun no havias ni empezado la ruta y ya estavas taladrando,almenos podias haver atado la cuerda a un arbol e intentar subir sin taladrar,y luego dios dira,pero no,tu nunca as creido en la ruta i as ido directamente a destruirla,porque tu eres el salvador de las torres,ahora entiendo los agujeros de intifada,seguro que los hiciste tu,,ves que facil es acusar sin tener pruevas??pues espera que aun tengo mas fotos..
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un de tants
climber
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Sep 24, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
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uy,perdon por no poder escribir en ingles pero es lo que tiene la incultura,pero a vosotros tampoco os sirve de nada hablar ingles porque veo que no me entendeis,no digo cojoneeess,,que sea inculto no quiere decir que sea mal educado,respetoo sobre todo respeto,tienes que entender que a mi tambien me a gustado esto de poner fotitos,esta chulo..perdon e coleguita si te e molestado,que no se altere nadie que aun no e terminado,despues ya os dejare enpaz para que os podais masturbar y haceros pajas mentales entre vosotros tranquis que ya casi termino..
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Sep 24, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
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i concur with the chief
your balls are underinflated.
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rocket scientist
Trad climber
Logan, UT
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Sep 24, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
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Esta no es la escalada, esto es una vergüenza de mierda!
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 24, 2012 - 04:06pm PT
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Your eyes are better than mine, I got to about 20 pieces and stopped counting. My initial impression was "I don't think I even own that many draws or biners"
EDIT: Holy smokes, I enlarged it and there are AT LEAST 28. That chick holding rope must be bored out of her mind.
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un de tants
climber
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Sep 24, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
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ey jeremy,no podia abandonar el foro sin antes decirte unas cuantas cosas.primero felicitarte por vuestra via realmente es muy bonita y disfrute mucho,todo mi respeto y admiracion hacia vosotros,pero creo que estas haciendo muy mal de juzgar a las personas sin conocerlas,por eso creo que tendrias que ir a repetir hot-parad ice y asi despues poder opinar con criterio propio y no por cosas que an visto otros ojos que no an sido los tuyos,es solo una opinion,me gustaria mucho que la repitieras y la graduaras y le pongas lo que tu creas conveniente,solo decirte que no se puede ser tan negativo,yo no tengo nada en contra de nadie,es mas no me gusta para nada la discusion ni el politiqueo,pero claro esta que richar se a pasado un poco tirando a mucho,contando muchas mentiras e inventandose su propia historia tu realmente despues de ver las fotos de los falques crees que llevavamos una sierra para cortarlas maderas??? porfavor,solo desde mi humilde posicion te puedo invitar a venir a escalar a nuestro pais,aqui no te faltara de nada,y asi podemos intercanviar cultura artificiera,asi que sin faltarte al respeto ni mucho menos cuidaros mucho y disfrutar la vida que esto de internet es para volverse locos,ahora entiendo muchas cosas,si necesitas qualquier cosa richi tiene mi mail,suerte
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
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Keep posting, David! More and more pics! You are making my case for me.
Biggest botch job in climbing history. And YES, I drilled all over your route. I did indeed, just as I have explained. I took your HOLE ladder and made it HONEST. And in the process I did it with FAR fewer holes and standing on many, many small placements that you never even saw.
Oh, and ALL the trenched heads on the first pitch were yours. I simply left the heads in place because the rock cannot sustain the trench-place-remove-retrench cycle. If you understood desert rock at all, you would know this.
But keep posting, because every video clip and pic you post just further demonstrates what you really did. Keep it coming!
Edit: I see in your last post you actually have the temerity to call me a liar. What a joke. Your own pictures demonstrate that I've told the truth about what a travesty you put up! Do you STILL claim A6+? Do you STILL claim "hardest aid route in the world?"
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Sep 24, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
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I'll bet the Internet Spanish-English translators are a-buzzin' today!
masturbar y haceros pajas mentales
Man, that's some funny shiz.
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2012 - 04:26pm PT
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WBW... I actually tried a couple of tri-cams there. Pinkie was okay. I certainly would have stood on it. But the roller was better. It's tragic that nobody makes these anymore. I like 'em better than ball-nuts.
Chief, I stand corrected! :-)
David, wow... how long did it take you to find that one bottle? I thought we cleaned up pretty good, but you caught me! I am shamed. Of course, by definition you would not have known about the half-a-garbage-bag full of your dropped slings, bottles (found in that run-off area under the overhang), and dropped gear we "recovered" after your ascent. It's hard to find everything when you're cleaning up, that's for sure. But, you got me!
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
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To me the overarching point is that none of us is "perfectly pure" in any sense. But CLIMBERS are trying to conform to what the rock presents, and the tactics employed must demonstrate that. There are HUGE "gray areas" within the tactical game, evidenced by the long "ethical" discussions we have on the Taco. Some here would even advocate that ALL aid climbing must be "clean or nothing" (I, of course, disagree).
However, debating within the "gray areas" does NOT signify that there are NO clear-cut cases. Debating within the "gray areas" still constitutes debating about CLIMBING tactics.
What the FA team did on this route, however, was not even CLIMBING, and there was nothing "gray" about their tactics. Just because there is SOME "gray" in climbing ethics does not mean that this FA was "gray!"
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 24, 2012 - 05:51pm PT
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This could only be the work of Juan de Fuca. We've been owned.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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Sep 24, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
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what in the hell is going on here?
can somebody do a summary version.
There was an ascent of a new route? It was purported to be extremely difficult. More difficult than Intifada?
Richard did a subsequent ascent of this new route. His ascent was going to be a repeat, but instead there were so many bashies in drilled holes and non-reusable wooden dowels in drilled holes that 1) the route didn't seem to be that difficult, and 2) he elected to find the most minimal path up over the line showing, by example and photos what was happening up there. Not doing what he did would have probably subjected him to accusations of 'retreat' in the face of difficulty.
un de tant seems to be the FA author of this new route? But online translators do a terrible job getting the context right of his posts in Spanish.
Accordingly, I may have all this completely wrong. But am I getting close?
I'm assuming it's ok to comment on the laundry here since it's all hanging in the breeze.
As a bit of a choss-liker (not licker), this seems to have some import into what the style could be on desert or choss routes.
Pounding gear and drilling is done by most climbers, we're just settling on price, yes?
thanks in advance,
Munge
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Sep 24, 2012 - 07:32pm PT
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Sloppy seconds.
Don't forget the part about getting sloppy seconds. And the implications of actually doing the sloppy seconds.
It's just plain gross.
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
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Pretty much nailed it, Munge. LOL... sloppy seconds ARE gross!
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Sep 24, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
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Hey David.
This is what we get from the translators....
starting debut, I go with anchors, ...
Hey people, look at you too these pics, are cool ...
carai carai that the highest ethical good Richi, leave everything set and drill to put coopers, interesting .. so long now that the first repetition after ...
long after passing first richi, who drilled to put cooper heads and leave??
Mr. pordonde look for truth, El Salvador towers forget to take your trash ... there are sooo bad .. bad richi must preserve the planet
u look richi,, uuu care ghosts woods,, missing the cut saw,, walk to cool eee??
to, look where you, a meeting without plates, see that you have little richi view, You made several feet arrives with a chain and three bolts mu very long, of course I understand you did not like this meeting was a bit awkward and yuyu dava some sub
Your miar where another meeting as a very bad, to my great, aaa clear that no bolts, is this also true of you jumped ..
richi look .. this is called Falque to cool?
watching another outfit, this if you can not trust ee, does not need any bolt next ...
look look .. trenches wing handsome, not cool estava I thought that, and now they are trenches, barricades next richiii yujuuu that funny, brutal
Falque peazooo kid, long out of the Hilton, you saw it or you also got yourself a bolt?
ups, sorry if I put two rups, but was afraid esque richi .. sorry, I hope your not to put two bolts ... one you bastava
this material sounds you richi? remember that I said that things had yours? whether if this is the material you use to upload your ... the longer the bolt floor via
first step of the way and now you're afraid richi?? there's age.
here because your intentions were clear what ive done, even havias not even started and already the route estavas drilling, at least you could haver rope tied to a tree and try to climb without drilling, and then God will say, but not, as you never i believed in the route as gone directly to destroy it, because you are the towers of El Salvador, now I understand intifada holes, you made sure your,, see how easy it is to accuse without evidence;?? because I have expected even more photos ....
I was afraid my ...
Oops, sorry for not being able to write in English but is it about ignorance, but you will not speak English is useless because I do not understand me, do not say cojoneeess, that is uneducated not mean it rude, respetoo about respect, you have to understand that I too would have liked to put this pics, this cool buddy .. sorry and upset if you and that no one is disturbed and not yet finished, and after that I will leave enpaz podais will make you masturbate and mental straws among you tranquis that I'm almost done ..
You might not like this picture richi, but I decided to upload so, and you do not and you dared not even respetaste, and I if I see a linia here ...
well I'm almost done I'm already tired of such nonsense, just looking at this picture of the work of Richard I think words are unnecessary
Hey Jeremy, I could not leave the forum without a few cosas.primero say congratulations on your route is very nice and really enjoyed it, my respect and admiration for you, but I think we're doing very bad judge people without knowing them , so I think you would have to repeat parad hot-ice and so after a say in their own judgment and not seen other things that an eye was not an yours, is just an opinion, I would love that and repitieras the will graduate and you put what you think is suitable, just say that you can not be so negative, I have nothing against anyone, but I do not like it at all the discussion and politicking, but of course that is to richar a little on the last lot, telling many lies and making up your own story you really after seeing the photos of Falques llevavamos think a saw to cut wood??? please, just from my humble position I can invite you to come to our country to climb, here you will want for nothing, and so we can intercanviar artificiera culture, so no disrespect far much Take care and enjoy life in this Internet is to get crazy, now I understand many things, if you need anything Any mail richi has my luck
This pic says it all man.
I led my first aid pitch yesterday. Granted it was only a 5.7 crack i basically made a1, and solid granite but I placed 18 pieces over 30m or so. Basically one every 1.67m or 5.5feet.
That means that even if you are say 30 feet away from your belayer in this pic, and you have 28 pieces in, then there is one every 1.07feet!!! Which is even less than the 18 inches Richard said!!! How many of those are bashies dude!!!
(Google translated reply for Pelut)
Dirigí mi tono de primeros auxilios ayer. Pero reconozco que era sólo una grieta 5.7 i básicamente a1, y el granito sólido, pero yo puse 18 piezas más de 30 metros o menos. Básicamente uno cada 1,67 m o 5.5feet.
Esto significa que incluso si usted es decir 30 pies de distancia de su asegurador en esta foto, y tiene 28 piezas, entonces hay una cada 1.07feet! Lo que es aún inferior a los 18 centímetros, dijo Richard! ¿Cuántos de ellos son monedas de cobre?
Edit: is there a word for inches in spanish? ^^^^^^
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 25, 2012 - 02:23am PT
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Spanish:
La ética en la escalada en roca es bueno! Pero Pelut no es la escalada en roca!
English:
Ethics in rock climbing is good! But Pelut is not rock climbing!
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:10am PT
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David-
Voy a tratar de resolver este problema a usted de una manera respetuosa.
La ética culturales locales con respecto a la escalada involucrar como pocas modificaciones a la roca como sea posible. Grandes cantidades de modificación, martillar, taladrar, atornillar, serrar, cualquier cosa que daña la roca se debe evitar siempre que sea posible. Los escaladores se modifique la roca, a veces, para enlazar las funciones escalables que de otro modo no podrían alcanzar. Las fotografías que usted y Richard acondicionados están demostrando una gran cantidad de modificaciones y daños a la roca que no parece justificado o propósito - que es la razón más grande por qué mirar hacia fuera! ¡Peligro! Se considera que se hace en forma deficiente por muchos escaladores en este hilo.
También con respecto a la ética de rock local escalada, rutas culturales se consideran estar en baja forma, si no son repetibles por los partidos de ascenso en el futuro. En otras palabras, la inserción y después retirando las espigas de madera y similares no se hacen para una ruta sostenible para las partes de ascenso futuras. (Esta es una gran parte de por qué Jim Beyer fue desacreditado por sus tácticas de Intifada.) Esta es la razón por qué el segundo mayor mirada hacia fuera! ¡Peligro! Se considera que se hace en forma deficiente por muchos escaladores en este hilo.
Por último, al rock local escalada ética cultural, no es una buena idea para tratar de vender una ruta como A6. A6 se considera una "mítica" de calificación. Usted definitivamente no quieren promocionar una ruta como A6 + a menos que sea una subida muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy, muy difícil . Las tácticas y técnicas de las fotografías de Look Out! ¡Peligro! mostrar No hablamos de una ruta que es casi lo suficientemente difícil de justificar incluso una calificación A5 por las normas culturales de Estados Unidos escalada.
¿Hay prejuicios contra los escaladores de España o catalán? Si, vamos por lo que he visto aquí, sí la hay. Desde algunos - pero no todos - de los escaladores en este hilo. Es lamentable y desafortunado que este prejuicio existe, sin embargo, esta no es la razón por la cual la mayoría de los escaladores en este tema desaprueba su ascenso. Una vez más, la razón principal es que viola la ética y las normas culturales de lo que constituye un buen primer ascenso a las Torres de Fisher.
Este hilo no es realmente una bomba de ego por parte de Richard Jensen - le informa de lo que encontró en su segundo ascenso. Él ha hecho un buen trabajo de documentar y fotografiar lo que encontró. Sus propias fotografías no son realmente demostrar nada diferente de lo que él informó.
Tal vez en este punto un buen enfoque sería la de expresar humildad y consultar con los escaladores en este foro acerca de cómo hacer una primera ascensión que no violan la ética y las normas culturales de las Torres de Fisher.
David, me gustaría conocer tu opinión sobre esta entrada si no te importa. Gracias.
Respetuosamente,
Jeff Schulze (AKA Coz)
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:11am PT
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(The above post was a spanish translation of the following post:)
David-
I will try to address this issue to you in a respectful way.
The Fisher Tower cultural ethics regarding climbing involve as little modification to the rock as possible. Large amounts of modification, hammering, drilling, bolting, sawing, anything that damages the rock is to be avoided whenever possible. Climbers do modify the rock at times, to link up climbable features they otherwise would not be able to reach. The photographs you and Richard put up are demonstrating a great deal of modification and damage to the rock that does not seem warranted or purposeful – that is the largest reason why Look Out! Danger! is considered to be done in poor form by many climbers in this thread.
Also regarding local rock climbing cultural ethics, routes are considered to be in poor form if they are not repeatable by future ascent parties. In other words, inserting and then removing wooden dowels and the like does not make for a sustainable route for future ascent parties. (This is a large part of why Jim Beyer was discredited for his tactics on Intifada.) This is the second largest reason why Look Out! Danger! is considered to be done in poor form by many climbers in this thread.
Finally, by local rock climbing cultural ethics, it’s not a good idea to tout a route as A6. A6 is considered a “mythical” rating. You definitely do not want to tout a route as A6+ unless it is a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, VERY difficult climb. The tactics and techniques the photographs of Look Out! Danger! show do not speak of a route that is nearly difficult enough to justify even an A5 rating by US cultural climbing standards.
Is there prejudice against climbers from Spain or Catalan? Well going by what I’ve seen here, yes there is. From some - but not all - of the climbers in this thread. It is regrettable and unfortunate that this prejudice exists, however this is not the reason why the majority of climbers in this thread disapprove of your climb. Again, the primary reason is that it violates the cultural ethics and standards of what constitutes a good First Ascent on the Fisher Towers.
This thread is not really an ego pump on the part of Richard Jensen - he is reporting what he found on his second ascent. He has done a thorough job of documenting and photographing what he found. Your own photographs aren’t really demonstrating anything different from what he reported.
Perhaps at this point a good approach would be to express humility and consult with climbers on this forum about how to do a first ascent that would not violate the cultural ethics and standards of the Fisher Towers.
David, I would like to hear your thoughts on this post if you wouldn’t mind. Thank you.
Respectfully,
Jeff Schulze (AKA Coz)
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:12am PT
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(And just to be on the safe side, here's a translation in French Canadian:)
JE SUIS PUISSANT! J'ai une lueur vous ne pouvez pas le voir, un cœur gros comme la lune - aussi chaud que l'eau du bain! Nous sommes super-héros, ami! Nous n'avons pas eu le temps d'être charmant! Les bottes du mal sont faites pour marcher! Nous observons la situation dans son ensemble, l'ami! Nous savons que le score! Nous sommes un service public, l'homme! Non garçons glamour! Pas capitaines d'industrie! Gardez votre argent vulgaires, car nous sommes un SANDWICH justice! Pas de garnitures nécessaires! SUPERTOPIANS DE SUPERTOPO, NE vous attrapez ma dérive!
DO. VOUS. DIG!?!?!?!?!
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 07:44am PT
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Wow!
You spent three days climbing and when you come back... You find out that again everything seems a matter of nationality.
I've given my opinion and seeing the sad attitude of Jeremy and Richy despite the havoc shown in Pelut's photos (do you all really support a retrobolting since the 1st meter of the route and give any kind of credibility to someone who was there alone?) I just want to translate Pelut's comments. By the way, could you please show a little bit of respect and shut up your despective comments?
Here we go:
empezando primer largo,yo pase con anclas,... - Beginning the first pitch, I passed with anchors...
carai carai,que etica mas buena la de richi,dejar todo puesto y taladrar para poner coopers,que interesante..asi esta el primer largo ahora despues de la repeticion... - Interesting! What an ethics the Richy's one, he leaves everything in place and drills to place coppers, interesting. That's how stays the first pitch after SA...
uumm,,carai con este richar con lo de puritano que va y mira por donde que agujeros para gantxear y poder colgar la hamaca a un metro del suelo,,eso si con dos bolts nose que por la noche se le arranque,claro,con uno solo es muy peligroso.. - Mmmm, how puritain is Richard, what a holes to hook and could hang the portaledge 1 meter over the floor with two bolts because perhaps at night one bolt pops out and with just a single bolt is very dangerous...
mira pordonde el señor de la verdad ,el salvador de las torres se olvida de llevarse su basura...hay hay richi..mal muuuy mal hay que conservar el planeta - Surprise, surprise, the Lord of the truth, Towers's savior forgets to take the rubbish away. Very bad Richy, we must protect the planet.
uy mira richi,,cuidado las maderas fantasmas uuu ,,falta la sierra para cortarlas,,anda que guay eee?? - Watch Richy, the ghost wood, it lacks the handsaw to cut'em, how exciting, right?
anda,mira tu por donde,una reunion sin chapas,mira que tienes poca vista richi,tu la hiciste varios metros mas arriva con una cadenita y tres bolts mu muy largos,claro entiendo que no te gustara esta reunion,era un poco incomoda y dava un poco de yuyu sub - Surprise, surprise, a belay without bolts, what's wrong with your sight? You belayed some meter upper with a chain and thre long, long bolts. Of course I understand that you don't like this belay, was a little bit uncomfortable and a bit scary
miar tu por donde,otra reunion,segun tu muy mala,para mi genial,aaa claro que no tiene bolts,es verdad esta tambien te la saltaste.. - Oh surprise, another belay, very bad according to you but perfect to me. Oh, of course, it doesn't have bolts. It's true, you also went passed it away.
mira richi,..a esto se le llama falque a que mola? - Look Richy, people calls it wedge. Nice, true?
//
mira otro modelito,este si que te puedes fiar ee,no le hace falta ningun bolt al lado...// - Look another type. You can trust in this, no need for a bold nearby.
//
mira mira..trincheras,ala que guapo,no se yo creia que estava guay,y ahora resulta que son trincheras,a las barricadas que viene richiii yujuuu que divertido,brutal// - Look, look, trenches, don't know, I thought it was ok, but they are trenches indeed. To barricades, that Richy comes!
//
peazooo falque chaval,largo saliendo del hotel hilton,lo viste o le metiste tambien un bolt??// - Big wedge, dude, leaving Hilton Hotel. You saw it or you alse placed a bolt?
//
ups,perdon si puse dos rups,pero esque tenia miedo..perdon richi,espero que tu no pusieras dos bolts...con uno te bastava// - Oh sorry, I placed two rurps, but I was affraid. Sorry Richy, I hope you didn't place two bolts... one was enough.
este material te suena richi?te acuerdas que te dije que tenia cosas tuyas?si si este es el material que usas tu para subir...el bolt largo es el de pie de via - This gear sound familiar to you, Richy? Do you remember I said to you I has something yours? This is the gear you use to climb, don't you? The long bolt was on the floor.
aqui ya quedaron claras tus intenciones de lo que ivas hacer,aun no havias ni empezado la ruta y ya estavas taladrando,almenos podias haver atado la cuerda a un arbol e intentar subir sin taladrar,y luego dios dira,pero no,tu nunca as creido en la ruta i as ido directamente a destruirla,porque tu eres el salvador de las torres,ahora entiendo los agujeros de intifada,seguro que los hiciste tu,,ves que facil es acusar sin tener pruevas??pues espera que aun tengo mas fotos.. - Your intention of what you were about to do were very clear. You didn't even begin the route and you were yet drilling. At least you could have tied the rope at a tree and try to climb withot drilling and see what's up. But no, you,ve never believed on the route and you've went directly to destroy it because you are the Towers guardian. Now I understand the holes on Intifada, I'm sure you drilled them. How easy is accusing without having evidences? But wait, I still have more photos...
//
uy,perdon por no poder escribir en ingles pero es lo que tiene la incultura,pero a vosotros tampoco os sirve de nada hablar ingles porque veo que no me entendeis,no digo cojoneeess,,que sea inculto no quiere decir que sea mal educado,respetoo sobre todo respeto,tienes que entender que a mi tambien me a gustado esto de poner fotitos,esta chulo..perdon e coleguita si te e molestado,que no se altere nadie que aun no e terminado,despues ya os dejare enpaz para que os podais masturbar y haceros pajas mentales entre vosotros tranquis que ya casi termino..// - I cannot write in English, sorry, I'm an uneducated, but it doesn't seems much useful to you because I see that you do not understand me neither. And I do not say cojones, to be uneducated doest not mean rude. Respect, specially respect. You should understand that I also love to put photos, it's funny. Sorry if that bothers you, I'm haven't finished. After I will leave you in peace because you could masturbate and jerk off one each other.
//
alomejor no te gusta esta foto richi,pero yo decidi subir asi,y tu no lo respetaste ni te atreviste nisiquiera,y yo si veo una linia aqui...// - Perhaps you don't like this photo Richy, but that's the way I decided to go up and you didn't respected at all and you didn't even dare. I do see a line here...
bueno ya casi termino que estoy ya cansado de tanta tonteria,solo viendo esta foto del trabajo de richar creo que sobran las palabras - Well, I almost finish, I'm fed up of so stupidness, just seeing this photo of Richard's job is enough eloquent.
//
ey jeremy,no podia abandonar el foro sin antes decirte unas cuantas cosas.primero felicitarte por vuestra via realmente es muy bonita y disfrute mucho,todo mi respeto y admiracion hacia vosotros,pero creo que estas haciendo muy mal de juzgar a las personas sin conocerlas,por eso creo que tendrias que ir a repetir hot-parad ice y asi despues poder opinar con criterio propio y no por cosas que an visto otros ojos que no an sido los tuyos,es solo una opinion,me gustaria mucho que la repitieras y la graduaras y le pongas lo que tu creas conveniente,solo decirte que no se puede ser tan negativo,yo no tengo nada en contra de nadie,es mas no me gusta para nada la discusion ni el politiqueo,pero claro esta que richar se a pasado un poco tirando a mucho,contando muchas mentiras e inventandose su propia historia tu realmente despues de ver las fotos de los falques crees que llevavamos una sierra para cortarlas maderas??? porfavor,solo desde mi humilde posicion te puedo invitar a venir a escalar a nuestro pais,aqui no te faltara de nada,y asi podemos intercanviar cultura artificiera,asi que sin faltarte al respeto ni mucho menos cuidaros mucho y disfrutar la vida que esto de internet es para volverse locos,ahora entiendo muchas cosas,si necesitas qualquier cosa richi tiene mi mail,suerte// - Hey Jeremy, I couldn't leave supertopo without saying you some words. Fisrt of all, I congratulate you for your route, in which I enjoyed a lot. All my respect and admiration to you, but I think you are doing very bad when judging people without knowing them. That's why I think you should do the SA of "Hot parad-ice" and like this, judging for yourself and not through other's eyes. It's just and opinion, but I'd like you to repeat it and rate it. I think that you shouldn't be so negative, I'm not against anybody and I don't even like discussions and political things, but it's clear that Richard has gone too far, lieing and inventing his own stories. After seeing the photos, do you really think we bring a handsaw to cut the wood? I'd would be very pleased to invite you to climb in our country and change some aid climbing knowledges. I don't want to be disrespectful to you, just wish you be well and enjoy live, that internet is a crazy thing, now I understand a lot of things. Whatever you need, Richy has my e-mail. Luck.
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 08:05am PT
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do you all really support a retrobolting since the 1st meter of the route
Hard to say because Richard was soloing and thus needed a belay at the bottom. I have no idea if there where any other alternative for a rope solo belay there.
and give any kind of credibility to someone who was there alone?) I just want to translate Pelut's comments. By the way, could you please show a little bit of respect and shut up your despective comments?
despite the havoc shown in Pelut's photos
So photos look pretty consistent with Richard's claims except maybe the belay pics. Drilled placements filled with crap that is not going to last.
Do you still not understand the american ethic that drilled holes should be filled with rivets or bolts and not bashis or wooden pegs stacked with pins?
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 09:39am PT
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Rivet-
could you please show a little bit of respect
respect
You keep using that word.
I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 10:26am PT
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Surely not! In my country, when someone bolts other's route, the whole community condemns this kind of action whether the pretext is true or not. And seeing the photos it seems to me that Jensen didn't ever wanted to climb the route, just discredit David and Ester (as I said, probably for his recently downrated WOS. I can't wait anymore for the film, by the way!), something that is very clear when creating a web page to claim the truth of his solo SA and when not even answering Pelut's appeals although he had internet connection (hiding the truth?). Jensen's coppers and bolts still remain on the route (2 coppers, 1 bolt and so on. Maybe fear?), and if you don't understand that is not the same to hang on a line of peckers/coppers/aluheads than on a line of bolts, there's nothing else to discuss.
But I understand your obstinacy having in account that the person who perhaps will become your President declares in public that does not understand why the windows of an airplane cannot be opened...
But I'm really disappointed with Jeremy. Pelut shows him his respect and congratulates him for Weird Science and however, he keeps in this nasty attitude and does not even put in question Jensen's version (do you support his actions Jeremy? That's the question! You can condemn Pelut's trenching (that at the end hasn't been so much), but Beyer did the same and you weren't even a tenth so critic with him after repeating World's End. American prejudice?). I hope Paul will be more reasonable...
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Sep 25, 2012 - 10:35am PT
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rivet-
Do you understand that if you drill a 1/4" (6mm) hole- you have touched the drill to rock? Y/N?
Do you understand that for DECADES the standard ethic is "if you drill it, fill it" which means you put a bolt (or rivet) in a hole? Y/N?
You do understand that hole counts have been "de rigueur" for 25 years (or better)? Y/N?
...and last, do you understand that Jim Beyer (or anyone else) drilling bashies (trenching) was and is considered bad form? Y/N?
Thus, if you are a sponsored climber, traveling the globe to get photos and stories printed and you propose you have created the hardest aid climb in the world someone will go have a look. When a second ascent party reports a shiat show of holes, wooden pegs, ripped out trenched heads etc -anyone will get grief from the community. Beyer 'reported' there were no holes and A.4+ belays on Intifada. Well, Richy and Mark kinda have EVIDENCE that was not the case.
Back to a comment many overlooked. Bob Shonerd intentionally went up on a wall without a drill or chisel or copperheads to do a route that would be completed without question. No belay?, just tie your other rope and lead 300 feet till you find one. Pelut et al took a drill and used it. He is a lame wannabe with no testicles. Case closed.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 10:47am PT
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Jim Beyer wasn't criticized for bashing. This fact was just mentioned for Aslaksen on his report of World's end... And of course, nobody said he didn't know to climb and nobody insulted him.
Pelut is not a professional climber, you should be informed before giving your opinion.
Pelut's photos shows how Jensen also used bashies filled with coppers, and still stay there, by the way...
Can you show us a publication where Pelut claims that Look out is the hardest aid climbing route in the world? Or you just can show a publication where he had been directly inteviewed and claims that it just is a A6+ proposal that should be confirmed? HAve you even seen a post of mine on this thred talking about A6/A6+?
Come on, any critics on Jensen and the whole sh#t of America on Pelut. Do you understand what I mean?
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 10:50am PT
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You can condemn Pelut's trenching, but Beyer did the same and you weren't even a tenth so critic with it.
Do you just make up things? Beyer climbed intifada 88. Did Jeremy write something about the route at that time or do you base this on comments or lack of comments on supertopo 20+ years later?
Surely not! In my country, when someone bolts other's route, the whole community condemns this kind of action whether the pretext is true or not
and you do not see the similarity with the fact that it seems like all locals is against Pelut in this case? What about following the local ethics? This climb was not climbed in your country.
What I miss from both you and Pelut is some comments in regard to the extensive drilling by the FA team on the climb. Did he drill a lot of holes for cooperheads and wooden pegs?
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 10:56am PT
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Jim Beyer wasn't criticized for bashing. This fact was just mentioned for Aslaksen on his report of World's end... And of course, nobody said he didn't know to climb and nobody insulted him.
Do you just read the last couple of pages on supertopo and think that you know everything about american climbing history?
I knew a long time before this thread and before Look out was climbed that Beyer trenched heads, drilled unnecessary holes, lied about climbs, chopped bolts on elcap etc and that he was criticize for all those things.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 11:00am PT
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World's End thread Raymond...
Do you see any critics there?
And keep on not condemning Jensen's action, at least everybody arround (yes, the world does not begin and end in the USA) will see this inbreding attitude...
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 11:13am PT
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World's End thread Raymond...
Do you see any critics there?
Yes, I saw critics there. Didn't you? What is your point?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 11:37am PT
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I agree with you Jeremy, but I do not see any fierce critics on your report of World's End. Just because Beyer is Beyer and Pelut is a completely unknown Spaniard (you don't even know Catalonia although you probably know Barcelona), what gives you the right to spill sh#t on him and Ester without any attempt to inform about'em. This is what I mean.
And in addition, i do not see any critics on Jensen's style and his more than probable lies on Look out. You've posted a photo of Pelut's video of this route where he is placing a copper, but some seconds after everybody can clearly see the "mythic" hook belay where no angles are seen, and however nobody posted that frame. I do understand that the style used in Look out is not the best (as wasn't Intifada or World's End), but I'd like to see how you put in words the mess that Jensen commited and in the route (a thing that you can report in your coming trip to Towers) and at least being critic with Pelut at the same level that with beyer and other people drilling little bashies (and I'm not justifying this acts). This is the point for me...
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Sep 25, 2012 - 11:39am PT
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Da Dweeb:
This thread is not really an ego pump on the part of Richard Jensen - he is reporting what he found on his second ascent. He has done a thorough job of documenting and photographing what he found. Your own photographs aren’t really demonstrating anything different from what he reported.
Not exactly true. What's up with this one, which appear to be a new bolt, four feet off the ground. The caption says: primer paso de la via y ya tienes miedo richi?? hay hay la edad.... Google translates this to:
first step of the way and now you're afraid richi?? There is no age
Did you really place a bolt five feet off the ground, Richard?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 11:52am PT
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I'm talking about this... A Jensen's lie? Where is the angle?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 11:56am PT
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So to me the point is do you support Jensen?
By the way, we'll be very pleased to meet you (and Pelut&Ester even offers you all his hospitality) in your next trip to Catalonia...
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
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Rivet-
In case you missed it, I wrote in this thread that Richard should have come down after seeing the crap on the first and second pitches. I, in no way, defend his continuation of the line. A line of worthless bolt hangers is just that. A monument to vanity. As is a line with worthless holes.
Jeremy and I did a new line 230' line with one hole on each pitch and two double bolt anchors this past saturday and sunday. I think we are grading it 5.7 A.0x (but that was in trainers and only one 12oz left from Sat 2100-Sun 1800.)
hole count
pitch 1, 1/2
pitch 2, 1/2
Pretty modest in my opinion.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
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I'm serious, We'll be very pleased to contact to you Jeremy. And there's any sarcasm in these words, I'm serious. You have yet Pelut's e-mail, so just give the call.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
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I don't know when the angle appeared, but that circled item IS A DRILLED HOLE that should have had a legitimate bolt placed in it.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
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Right Rick, but we'll agree that deeping the hole to place an angle and then blaim others is not exactly the same... Its pretty nasty. That's what I mean. Perhaps you can make the difference, but is not the majority in this thread...
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
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And seeing the photos it seems to me that Jensen didn't ever wanted to climb the route, just discredit David and Ester Rivet, three things:
1) What do you mean by "not climbing the climb"? That he intended to do a hatchet job? What a preposterous and wholly unsupported accusation. In his 3+ decades of climbing he has never done a climb in which he disrespected the route. Yes, Richard did fully expect to find that the A6+ rating was a hoax. But to say his intent was to hatchet the route and the FA team is a farce.
2) Look Out! Danger! employed incredible and appalling tactics that one would have expected from a route in the 1930's, things all but unknown in modern times (e.g., wood dowels in holes which were then sawed off by the FA). This route is so far off the map that trying to correlate it to Intifada or any other route is misguided and useless. Which leads to point #3:
3) The purpose you seem to have is not to meaningfully examine the climb or the climbers, but to stir the pot with a predetermined agenda. Perhaps you will have something rational with which to respond, but if not, don't expect a further response from me.
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
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Right Rick, but we'll agree that deeping the hole to place an angle and then blaim others is not exactly the same... Its pretty nasty.
I believe that Jensen said that the hole was deep and that an angle would fit in the hole. Not that an angle necessary where placed there.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
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Mark, neither for me, all the answers you are looking for have been answered yet since my point of view in older posts... beginning for 1930's tactics that even Beyer and others widely used in the 80's.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
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My god, come one Raymond!
No way with people like you. Hope your next president will know why is not allowed to open the window of an airplane...
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
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President? My country don't even have a president.
So what was so ridiculous with my comment? Jensen didn't necessary know how every hole where used. Do you know that Pelut didn't drill a deep hole and put in a copperhead or two in the hole?
I don't know what he put in that hole but I do not think that Pelut has made any comments in regard to those holes or has he?
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:41pm PT
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Rivet Hanger's posts in this thread have been almost universally delusional, in particular that doozy about how Jensen (possibly the single most-slandered climber in the history of this site) has never been criticized as much as Pelut.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
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Pere,
you still dont seem to understand. Even if you are right and richard is lying and he did drill the hole deeper (not that i am saying he did) , he never should have had to because it should have had a bolt or rivet in it! Using wood and pins damages the rock and makes the route impossible to repeat without drilling more.
Also please dont clean up Pelut's insults. I know he said bastard at one point.
Edit Just because you are standing on crap all day doesnt make it hard. It's just crap!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 25, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
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rick d: A monument to vanity
Careful with such psychological speculations. The "vanity" sword is one known to universally cut the hand of the one wielding it. Better to talk about objective facts rather than motivational speculations.
I'll explain more in an upcoming post about my actual motivations in continuing the ascent.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 25, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
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RH: you keep trying to float the idea that I'm lying and that I even drilled holes out deeper.
Ridiculous on both fronts. I don't think any climber has endured more scrutiny and speculation (spanning decades) than I have. What's come out of all that is that I don't lie about my climbing. On everything I have ever discussed regarding climbing, I've been more forthcoming (and in DETAIL) than anybody. And everything I've said has been vindicated over the years.
We all "lie" in all sorts of contexts. But I don't "lie" about climbing. Period.
Second, what you need to finally "get" is that I've been entirely forthcoming about the drilling I did (a LOT of it)! I didn't drill out any of Pelut's holes because they were already that deep when I found them, so I was able to put angles in some of those holes just as I found them.
I have been CLEAR that I don't know what Pelut put into those holes. Some of the pics of the hole ABOVE the "hook belay" clearly indicate that some sort of bashie-arrangement was in that hole (multiples?) But that UPPER hole is not the one of interest.
YOU circled that UPPER hole in your pic, but it's not the really interesting one (it's interesting, but not SO much so).
The really interesting one is the one just BELOW the "hook anchor." And that one is NOT visible in the pic you supplied.
There is a pic up-thread that shows a rack of gear hanging from some placement where that hole would be. There is SOMETHING there, but we can't see what it is. Perhaps it IS just another bashie-arrangement. Perhaps not.
ALL I KNOW is that both of those holes, fore and aft of the "hook anchor" are DEEPLY drilled.
And I found this same story all the way up the route. MOST of the holes are WIDE but fairly shallow. They got blown out when Pelut jerked out the bashies that had been in them.
But SOME of the holes, sprinkled all the way up the route, are DEEPLY drilled. I don't know why some were that deep, but it's just an objective fact that they were.
And I KNOW that the "hook anchor" was DEEPLY drilled. The hooks are deeply drilled, and the holes fore and aft are deeply drilled. That was no "death anchor!"
As has been stated just above, it really doesn't matter WHAT I did to get up the route. Even if the whole climbing community comes to share "rick d's" perspective that I SHOULD have stopped after the first pitch, it changes nothing about what Pelut did. You can't get Pelut off the hook by bashing on ME. The facts of the FA are what they are. And the facts of the SA change nothing about the FA facts.
Finally, all your whining about how Pelut is getting bashed on is pretty lame. PELUT is the one who put up this travesty and called it A6+. HE is the one that based that absurd rating off of the LONG-debunked rating of Intifada, and he SHOULD have known that that ancient Intifada rating was laughable. And HE is the one that drilled hundreds and hundreds of holes up the Titan. So, he can face the music on all those points. Your whining about him having to face the music is pathetic.
Just stop it.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
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Where are the PowerPoint graphics?
You need some sketches to elucidate your points. Lots of them.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
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Regarding the very first bolt I drilled....
raymond phule: Hard to say because Richard was soloing and thus needed a belay at the bottom. I have no idea if there where any other alternative for a rope solo belay there.
Pelut's picture of that first hole is extremely disingenuous, and he says, "Try anchoring to a tree."
What's really there is a long series of slabs (about 30-degree angle) for about 150 feet from the base of the wall. These increase in angle as they approach the base and become covered with scree and dirt. Small bushes are growing here and there in the dirt. Within 40 feet of the base the angle steepens considerably, and you can't easily get up it (it keeps sliding). And within the last 20 feet to the base is compacted aggregate at about a 60-degree angle. The only way you can get up that is "free climbing" on these embedded rocks (which often come loose).
In Pelut's pic it looks like he is just standing there. But he's not. What he's "standing on" is some hole left from a dislodge rock in this 60-degree slope of aggregate.
And there's no "tree" to anchor to. If anybody can produce a pic of a "tree" within 80-feet of the vertical section of the wall, I'll apologize profusely for that hole. There is no such tree.
What there ARE are these few small bushes growing out of the sloped dirt ramp. And I did try to anchor with these, even though they are 40-feet and more from the base of the wall.
I set up a couple of elaborate anchoring schemes using equalized large rocks and these few bushes. But when one pulled out easily as I was trying to get a sling around the base of it, I finally just gave up the whole approach.
I was solo and needed a ground anchor. Pelut had Esther standing at the START of where the dirt slope gets steep... 40 feet below the start of the route. And that partly explains the short first pitch to the "hook anchor."
A soloist can get no good ground anchor and has no belayer standing 40 feet lower.
So, yes, I did indeed place a single 1/2-inch bolt where the wall actually starts. I placed it low, so I could use it for upward pull (as a soloist has to think about). I placed it low enough that I couldn't use it to reach up and get the first placement. And I intentionally placed a sleeve-anchor, so that anybody that cares to can simply unscrew and remove it, filling the hole if they want.
I didn't remove and fill the hole because I wasn't hiding anything. I placed the bolt, so I left it there for all the world to see, which is my approach to climbing. I'm not hiding anything.
RH: You can debate that hole all you want, but you thereby miss the important points. This or that particular hole (mine or Pelut's) is not what's at issue here. I don't nit-pick this or that particular hole (well, with the "hook anchor" as an exception, because THAT's what that anchor is about). I wouldn't be bashing on Pelut's route if it just had "some" holes I was able to bypass.
Honestly, I'm not into dissing on some route just because it's not "perfect" or has "more drilling" than might please me. I don't think there IS any "perfect" route, and some of climbing's GRAND MASTERS have done tons of drilling, enhancing, chipping, trenching, and so forth.
Those tactics, in general, are frowned upon BECAUSE they can be abused! And I will certainly bash on a route in which those tactics are ABUSED.
I mean that if somebody trenches ONE head in a bottomed seam (and leaves the head in place) to get to the next natural placement, and this saves a full-on bolt, I would be inclined to applaud that decision. MANY others will disagree. That's fine. Such disagreements keep us ALL honest!
I repeat, my (and many other's) angst with Pelut's tactics is that this or that particular hole or trench were not "isolated" incidents with a clear tactical purpose! Pelut JUST DRILLED! He drilled EVERYTHING. Even those first few heads he points to in his pic of the start of the route are trenches HE drilled. I just left heads in the trenches (for reasons I've explained already). He drilled and drilled and drilled. He drilled (often) every 18 inches (and sometimes closer than that!). He drilled ALL the way up. He drilled in unprecedented fashion! And then he sprayed to the world (including with outrageous videos) that what he had done was AWESOME and HARD... even giving the PILE the highest rating EVER given to an aid route.
So, we're not debating this or that particular hole!
What Pelut did on "Look Out" goes SO FAR BEYOND THE PALE of what has EVER been done (at least in this country) that it DESERVES a special measure of BASHING!
So, if you whine about Pelut getting "more" heat than others, you should OWN UP to the FACT that it's because what he DID is more worthy of heat than others!
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:53pm PT
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On the few routes I've soloed in the fishers, I'd just fill a haul bag full of rocks for my belay.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
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RH: You keep coming back to the idea that I cannot be considered a credible "reporter" of what is on the route because I went up there DETERMINED in advance to "discredit Pelut."
Two responses:
First, my friends and family can attest to the FACT that this is not accurate. I was pretty sure that I was going to down-rate the route, because I just don't believe in A6, much less A6+. But I ALSO went up there prepared to die on the route. I see that Mark has recently posted here, so perhaps he'll hop on and verify some of the things he and I talked about as I was gearing up for the thing. As I've written, the first pitch looked fearsome, and I was taking it very seriously! I was SHOCKED at what I found on the route, and it took several pitches to convince me that what I found was just THE ROUTE rather than some "early mistakes" or something like that. My friends and family that engaged with me in a year of preparation will attest to the FACT that I did NOT go up there to "discredit Pelut."
Second, part of why I continued the ascent was TO see the whole story! If there was ANYTHING of merit on the route, I wanted to know it. I wanted to tell the WHOLE and REAL story, rather than just "discredit Pelut." In fact, HAD I wanted only to discredit Pelut, it would have made the most sense for me to quit after the first pitch. I could have then come down and claimed "all the knowledge of the route we need," which is, in fact, what some on this thread are arguing (such as rick d and (at times) Jeremy).
But a FULL SA needed to be done, so I'll get into that.
It's easy now to say that an SA should not have been "pushed" up the wall, since we know what a pile the "route" is all the way up. But we didn't know what a pile it was "all the way up" UNTIL the full SA. Now and only now do we know that there was nothing "worthy" on the whole thing.
So, to tactics.
Somewhere in (my) second pitch I started thinking, "Wow, this is shaping up to be a route that really needs chopping. But HOW do you 'chop' what is just a line of holes? And, what if there is something worthy higher up? Is there SOME way I can 'upgrade' this thing to make it better, so that if there's worthy stuff higher up, at least there's a sustainable start to getting there? CAN I come up with SOME way to hedge my bets against all possibilities?"
And now that the route has been SAed, it's clear that if any route ever needed a good chopping, this one is the one. So, HOW do you both ascend and "chop" a line of (mostly useless) holes?
Well, it's clear that one thing you DON'T do is re-drill those same holes to make them "better!"
I came to two answers:
First, you "obscure" the original route BY putting something in its place that renders the original entirely obsolete. That's why I started only "loosely" following the exact line of holes.
Second, what you put in its place acts as "scare quotes" around the original. You put up something HONEST that really calls attention to what the original WAS, while effectively "erasing" the original BY "obsoleting" it, meanwhile showing what even a "drilled route" could have been (and it COULD have been MUCH better than it was!).
So, I both found that there WAS nothing "worthy" higher up (although I kept that possibility in mind as I ascended), AND I ultimately obsoleted the original.
Now, in my mind, the "perfect" ending to the whole sordid story would be for some other team to now go up and fully ERASE the route by removing even my bolts. I now honestly believe (having seen the whole story) that a route in GOOD style CANNOT go through that section of the Titan. There's just not enough natural features to do a route that will not be HEAVILY drilling-dependent. So, no route should even be there, IMHO. A final "chopping" will be pretty easy to do. Except for the early rivets, I used sleeve-anchors as "rivets." They are easily removed, and those (small) holes will go away pretty quickly on that "rock."
There is a very nice rap-route there now (the two-bolt, chained system I left at my anchors). So, perhaps it's good to leave those two-bolt systems in place. And that's a nice place to "land" after you rap the Titan, as you end up just above the trail (nicer than rapping the other side). And, unlike the "existing" rap route on that side, mine is top-quality and will last for decades. But, whatever.
Or, the thing can be left in place. What I left is fully sustainable, and I did it with an eye to both speedy ascents and "comfortable" bivies. My two bivies have multiple bolts spread out to make for nice hangs. And all my anchors have large, long bolts (with at least one 1/2-incher), so NOBODY will EVER "need" to add holes to my anchors. So, the "route" is as bolted as it will EVER need to be. It's now a great moderate-aid and "clip up" that many might find fun to do. I don't know. What's the most "valuable" thing to do now?
I have no "attachment" to the route. So, I encourage anybody to "finish" the story by "chopping" even my bolts. Or, leave the retro-fitted thing in place as a statement to the next generation of the ambitious that Pelut's tactics will not be tolerated, and that we are GOING to know the truth! Either way, Pelut's "route" is effectively erased.
SOMEHOW the SA needed doing. ALL of it. Look at RH's attempts to get ANYTHING to stick to damage the credibility of the SA as it is. Had I bailed, Pelut would have yelled to the world: "Look! Just LOOK! My route BLEW even Jensen out of the saddle! Wow! Just as I said: hard, hard, HARD!"
Even now he's trying to float that I was "scared" into "having" to drill up the SA. On and on.... But, BECAUSE there is now a documented SA, all of such red-herring tactics have no real effect, because they change nothing about the facts of what the FA really was.
BECAUSE there is now a FULL SA, there can be no (real) debate about the objective facts of the FA. And I have no problem with "taking the heat" for my decision to finish the pile (and in better "style" than the FA).
My goal by about 1/3 of the way up became (in part) to show Pelut what he SHOULD have done, even if he WAS going to put up a heavily-drilled route. We'd still be complaining about the total number of holes. But we wouldn't be bashing on him as we now are. And he wouldn't have even tried to float some new, outrageous rating.
So, do what you wish with the route as it presently stands. Either way, the FA "route" is effectively erased, and its outrageous tactics are fully and credibly known.
Meanwhile, I suggest watching these two music videos... and to chill!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouZQ7rgAq-I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=hTdhXxxWREo
Female-fronted metal is the real deal (regardless of country of origin)!
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
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On the few routes I've soloed in the fishers, I'd just fill a haul bag full of rocks for my belay.
That would work there too, if you want your bag sitting 60 to 80 feet down-slope from the start. Or, I guess you could dig out a big "shelf" in the slope. But people would moan about that too.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 25, 2012 - 06:08pm PT
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if you want your bag sitting 60 to 80 feet down-slope from the start
Might be a good idea, more rope out, lower impact/fall factor, etc.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 25, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
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Not too worried about the fall factor on that pitch, and wanted maximum rope to be able to actually get a full pitch.
The further down-slope you "anchor," the more "valid" you make that "hook anchor" appear. By anchoring AT the start of the route, the "hook anchor" is easily bypassed, because then you can easily make it to the good crack high on the pitch (which, by the way, is quite visible from the ground as a crack).
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 26, 2012 - 06:59am PT
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Crunch, did you have any thoughts about that first bolt in light of all of this?
Also, bump in hopes that David will read my post a few pages back, and because I just can't get enough of Rivet Hangar...
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Sep 26, 2012 - 10:20am PT
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On the few routes I've soloed in the fishers, I'd just fill a haul bag full of rocks for my belay.
That would work there too, if you want your bag sitting 60 to 80 feet down-slope from the start. Or, I guess you could dig out a big "shelf" in the slope. But people would moan about that too.
Actually no. No one would have "moaned" about that. Jeremy? Paul? Rivet Hanger?
I've done the rocks in the haul bag trick, too, once or twice. A Screamer helps for avoiding shock-loading the bag too much. Takes some thought to set it all up and it looks a bit spooky, but, ya know, if I'm there to take on the challenge of the climb I'm starting, then that's what I'll do.
A strategy for this route?
How about hammering a stake/rebar into the "slope" to anchor the bag? Car jacks sometimes have suitable components. Or have it half-hanging/balanced from the first placement, whatever that works out to be. Sounds like a fun challenge, actually. Where there's a will....
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Sep 26, 2012 - 10:52am PT
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The wider picture.
Both the FA and SA were done for the poor reasons. FA for establishing an "A6" by whatever means. No attempt to learn current ethics and style. The Beyer trenching techniques are regarded, in the US, as a 20-year-dead end, largely abandoned. Yet here they've been used heavily. But, sponsors are happy. There's a video. Names and photos in magazines.
The video is bad, shows drilling holes for bashees and even shows heavy hammer blows to remove a obviously deeply drilled hook.
The second ascent? More sponsors involved. A blog. A DVD on the way. More drilling. The drilling starts even before the second ascent has stepped up on the rock, which would seem not to support the idea that the second ascent was ever really serious about being mentally prepare for what an "A6" might throw at you.
The big achievement of the second ascent is to show how poorly the FA party did. Evidently, Palmada is strangely unable or unwilling to to top-step in his aiders. The route's not A6. Etc, etc.
Here, online, it's become, The other guy, look at him, he's worse than me.
This whole affair is so negative, depressing. It's sucked me in, and here I am, whining online about a route I've not seen and people I've never met. Every opinion of mine expressed here is based on second-hand info.
My last word, for now. Sorry if anything I've said is mistaken.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Sep 26, 2012 - 11:01am PT
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The second ascent? More sponsors involved. A blog. A DVD on the way.
Where are the sponsors? I don't see any on Jensen's blog. As for having a blog and updating along the way, that's practically standard procedure these days on the climbing interwebs. A DVD? The only DVD I've seen mentioned in this thread is the upcoming Wings of Steel DVD about Ammon's second ascent of that route. I don't see any mention from Jensen of a DVD about this. Hell, his last post basically advocated chopping the entire thing other than the rap anchors.
More drilling. The drilling starts even before the second ascent has stepped up on the rock, which would seem not to support the idea that the second ascent was ever really serious about being mentally prepare for what an "A6" might throw at you.
It's more than a bit disingenuous to claim that drilling a single ground belay bolt for upward pull on a solo anchor and to avoid using a contrived belay higher up "would seem not to support the idea that the second ascent was ever really serious about being mentally prepare for what an "A6" might throw at you."
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Sep 26, 2012 - 11:16am PT
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I hope I don't find what I'm expecting to find.
Retro-drilling on Weird Science? Yeah, I hope you don't find that either.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Sep 26, 2012 - 11:20am PT
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hey Black Spider:
http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/?page_id=27
Jensen's own words:
Thank you for your support!
Many thanks to those of you that have sponsored this ascent so far. We are making good progress toward our goal of $2000, which will cover the cost of ropes, certain specialized gear, food, and travel expenses. Those of you that have sent me checks so far have really encouraged me with your contributions and wonderful notes and letters. Thank you!
When the ascent is finished, I’ll be sending all contributors a DVD documentary of the ascent. And I’ll add nice, large, high-quality picture-prints to those of you that have contributed $100 or more.
I still need more funds, so if you haven’t contributed yet, please consider helping me make this ascent. Be a part of climbing history, get the DVD, and enjoy the satisfaction of helping a “poor climber” bag this important second ascent!
End quote.
As for the "contrived" hook anchor. How would anyone would know it was "contrived" from the ground?
Plus Jensen's rope soloing. You get to the end of the rope, 200 feet up, all you do is tie another on, and keep going. The rope does not move up and down through the pieces, so you can keep stretching a pitch out as far as you want. You can plan ahead, have a spare lead rope tied in with all the spare gear on the ground.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Sep 26, 2012 - 11:29am PT
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Jensen's own words:
Thank you for your support!
Many thanks to those of you that have sponsored this ascent so far. We are making good progress toward our goal of $2000, which will cover the cost of ropes, certain specialized gear, food, and travel expenses. Those of you that have sent me checks so far have really encouraged me with your contributions and wonderful notes and letters. Thank you!
When the ascent is finished, I’ll be sending all contributors a DVD documentary of the ascent. And I’ll add nice, large, high-quality picture-prints to those of you that have contributed $100 or more.
I still need more funds, so if you haven’t contributed yet, please consider helping me make this ascent. Be a part of climbing history, get the DVD, and enjoy the satisfaction of helping a “poor climber” bag this important second ascent!
End quote.
Didn't see that but I didn't read the blog all that closely. Curious if he's actually still planning to make it given how the second ascent turned out compared to what he was originally thinking it might be. Richard? Still planning the DVD or did the route put you off from making it?
As for the "contrived" hook anchor. How would anyone would know it was "contrived" from the ground.
Jensen mentions that a good crack system is easily visible from the ground at the length where a pitch would logically end.
Plus Jensen's rope soloing. You get to the end of the rope, 200 feet up, all you do is tie another on, and keep going. The rope does not move up and down through the pieces, so you can keep stretching a pitch out as far as you want. You can plan ahead, have a spare lead rope tied in with all the spare gear on the ground.
Is it really worth doing that just to avoid placing one ground bolt, which seems to be the issue here?
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Sep 26, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
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420 bump
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Sep 26, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
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It's 4:20 somewhere.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Sep 26, 2012 - 02:23pm PT
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So let me get this straight. No one should have ever done an sa. Richard should have just turned around when he saw what it really was, but then he wouldn't have been able to tell the tale?
Dont you guys see? By leaving these travestys you are doing more harm than good.
Maybe if people had decried infitada more or gone and made an honest route out of it then pelut never would have got the idea that this style is cool.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
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Sep 26, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
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This is great. I thought that the Wings of Steel dramz was over.
My only regret is that my spanish isn't better.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Sep 26, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
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I thought that the Wings of Steel dramz was over.
Some people have drama queenery as part of their DNA.
Others really do like sloppy seconds.
Sometimes it's the same team. Umm. Person. Eww.
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turd
climber
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Sep 27, 2012 - 02:19am PT
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Remember the time that spanish guy said american climbers get criticized less than foreign climbers? And he said it to Richard Jensen?
That was awesome.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Sep 27, 2012 - 02:39am PT
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Lol!
I for one am glad Richard followed through and made a statement that Pelut's "route" was not acceptable and effectively erased it.
Pelut's "route" is still there though, and should serve as an example of what not to do while "climbing".
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Sep 27, 2012 - 10:26am PT
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Gear beta for the third ascentionist:
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Sep 28, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
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Looking forward to your report Jer!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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Sep 28, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
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what the hell is that Chief? "washing" the faces that get rained on?
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Sep 28, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
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what the hell is that Chief? "washing" the faces that get rained on?
Nah. They're cops, practicing their pepper spray skills.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 11, 2012 - 06:40am PT
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Still no news, Jeremy?
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 11, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
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Ahh, I was wondering when this thread would rise back to the top of the stack.
Okay, here's some of my observations and photos of the start of the "Danger" route.
Here, the photo of Pelut, laughing, smiling, pointing at a new bolt, accusing Richard of being "scared"
What I did not notice in that photo was that there is a bashee, even lower! Pelut is holding on to it in the photo.
If Richard's bolt is at chest/collarbone height, then this bashee is at base of ribcage/navel height, while standing on the ground. Bashee looks old, stained reddish, so I assume this is Pelut's bashee. Why is it there? Lame. Very lame.
There are FOUR bashees and a bolt in this picture. Lower middle of pic, is the Jensen bolt. Even lower, to right, is the Pelut bashee. Three more bashees are fixed, higher, each within a foot or so of each other (click on the pic to see a bigger version). The Tomahawk is mine, tapped with rock (yes, that one in the pic, forgot a hammer) from standing on the ground. Not much rock left to play with. It's the smallest size Tomahawk.
There are two bashees and a bolt lower than my basic, neat, caveman-style beak placement, placed while standing on the ground. I could reach the next bashee up.
Another photo, taken from the trail looking higher up the first pitch:
I counted about 40 drilled holes (not placements in cracks, just holes in blank rock) on pitch 1, including those filled with rivets/bolts. Probably at least 30 drilled by FA party, more drilled by SA to bypass the flared holes left by the FA party.
A big mess.
Kor, Ingalls, and Hurley set the bar high in 1962. The Fishers is no place for beginners to pound holes.
Pelut, please take some classes, some basic aid instruction classes with someone who knows how to use aiders. Northern Spain has some of the best free climbers in the world, Iker Pou, Josune Bereziartu, etc. but the standard for aid climbing appears very poor.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Oct 11, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
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Yowza!!!
Jeremy-
Yer mom called Pelut "LIGHT DUTY" Last night during our weekly Baccarat game!!
BWHAHAHAHHA!!
She said she could have done it with 3 holes.....
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Oct 11, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
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Who removed Jensen's bolt and hanger in Crunch's photo?
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 11, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
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Who removed Jensen's bolt and hanger in Crunch's photo?
Maybe Paul Ryan?
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 11, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Oct 11, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
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This is all really terrible. The video from the FA pretty much gave the rest of us a good idea of what was already up there. This is only if the A6+ rating didn't tell you already. I mean really, A6+? I was still thinking A5 was not real with lots modern gear. Not sure why Richard really felt the need or want to do this, even after reading through most of this thread. Different ways of thinking for different people.
I will say that Silvia Vidal will always be one of my heros of wall climbing. This whole deal has nothing to do with what country we are from. It has to due with a lack of respect for the natural.
To rivet hanger, Beyer and his style have been disliked by many American climbers. I think of Beyer as a rebel wall climber. The whole idea of rating aid climbs the way he does is madness. His ethics and way about doing things have been disapproved by many. Yet, I call Beyer the better aid climber over Pelut.
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Oct 11, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
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Was Romney involved? That does it then, I'm not voting for those guys!Stealing hangers, not patching bolt holes! :)
BTW- nice photos Crunch.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 11, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
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Beyer pushed aid as far as he could go. He was climbing in the Fishers before Birdbeaks were available, so all he had for thin seams were RURPS and bashees/copperheads. Way scary.
Birdbeaks, followed by Peckers, Toucans and now Tomahawks revolutionized what was reasonable and possible in the desert.
Some pics from a trip to Spain a few years back. The free climbing there is superb:
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Oct 11, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
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Sooooooo lame. What a jerkoff. Where are the shitters when you need them.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 13, 2012 - 05:02am PT
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Oct 14, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
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Any pictures of the damage Jeremy?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 15, 2012 - 04:49am PT
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I was climbing, my friends, a thing that I usually do (instead of watching the routes with binoculars from the ground)...
Jeremy, you wrote "I just can only imagine", so "chalked up crack climb" is just an imagination, isn't it?
And in Hot parad'ice, you saw drilled heads every 20 feet? Just a clue, new videos on the net and no drilled heads, just peckers...
And by the way, no photos at all? The camera is broken, or there's no even need to prove anything, just write an opinion and wait for the faithful ovation of the American community?
I do think again that there's no way with you, Americans! Keep being the blind guardians of the Towers and increasing your imbred cofficient, dudes!
But at least try not telling lies...
Be well all of you, and try to discover the aid climbing routes in Picu Urriellu, even people from Russia go there to climb'em in winter!
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Gagner
climber
Boulder
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Oct 15, 2012 - 10:56pm PT
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Hi RIvet Hanger - Jeremy and I did indeed climb in the Fishers, but took a morning off to scope the new route on KingFisher. You may be misinformed because we did clearly see several holes with bashies in them on the start of the first pitch. The crack up high is interesting - we were never willing to do the drilling to get up to it. It is now all white and seriously looks like it is massively chalked from bottom to top. I know better though because it's an overhanging seam on Fisher Tower stone, so that would not be possible. Do you know what happened up there to cause that?
Crushers pictures, and my binocular inspection of "Look Out..." are very disturbing, as are the chain anchors installed by Richard that are clearly visible. If Pelut comes back to the Fishers I would ask him to contact me so I can share the sustainable tactics we use.
Paul
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 16, 2012 - 05:16am PT
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Hi Paul,
You've been there and not me, that's a fact, but in all the photos and videos I've seen (which, I insist, have absolutely public access on internet) don't tell exactly the same. It would be really interesting that Jeremy and you could upload some pics to accompany your explanations...
By the way, I'm glad to read a moderate condemnation of Jensen's actions and I think Pelut will be pleased to share a meeting with you, he has yet offered his hospitality if you come to Europe.
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 16, 2012 - 05:18am PT
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(which, I insist, have absolutely public access on internet)
I tried to find those videos but couldn't find them. Can you link to the videos?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 16, 2012 - 05:41am PT
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Come on Raymond, try it best!
It's really easy, just put the right words on Google. You know the name of the FA team, the name of the route and the Tower in which the adventure took place...
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 16, 2012 - 09:24am PT
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You mean the holes belonging to Pelut, the ones belonging to Jensen, the bolts and rivets belonging to Jensen, the mysterious holes on Intifada, the little holes drilled by the same Beyer or the bathooks on Wings of Steel?
All these questions have been treated before, just press previous on the right side of this thred and read...
By the way, keep improving your Google skills, perhaps you'll find even some pics...
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 16, 2012 - 09:41am PT
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I meant the holes belonging to Pelut. You know the holes filled with bashies and other things. The holes on the route that this thread is about. I do not remember that you have made any clear statement about those holes but I might have missed them among all insults. I neither remember that Pelut has made any clear statements about those holes.
Maybe you don't know this but google works different in different countries and it seems to be much easier to find information about Peluts climbs when using the spanish google.
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 16, 2012 - 09:44am PT
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I still don't really understand what the videos and a few pics prove. They just show a very small part of the route in question and there are only a few placement where it is clear what the placement is.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 16, 2012 - 10:57am PT
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"The holes on the route this thread is about". Nothing about the holes made by Jensen and the shinning anchor chains...
I haven't neither seen any clear statment about the actions of Jensen on the route, or perhaps I haven't read'em because of the huge amount of taunt, jokes, cliché, lacks of respect and insults for the FA team. Jeremy and Paul haven't uploaded any pics of the final result of Jensen's actions, by the way, although Paul at least condemns a little bit this action. And they claim the new route seems a "chalked up" new route when seen from the ground. Any intention of repeting it and then talk. Why? Just go there, look it through binocles and give your opinion... Prejudice? But no surprise at all if we have in account that the first reaction of Aslaksen when he knows someone has made the SA of Weird Science is saying: I'll be there in a couple of weeks to check out Pelut's havoc on my route. Too much prejudice against no-american climbers and a huge feeling that Towers just belong to the little aid-climbing community, that's the problem since my point of view. But in fact, nothing new, it's all I have said since the beginning.
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 16, 2012 - 11:09am PT
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Still no answer. Just red herrings about other routes and climbers.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 16, 2012 - 11:19am PT
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The same to you Raymond.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Oct 16, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
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RH is the definition of a troll.
-Constant repetition of the same idea over and over so people will feel compelled to point that out
-Ad hominem attacks to incite people to defend themselves and others
-Unwilling to post links and instead telling you to go find them yourself thus making you chase your tail for things that there's no reason to belive exist
-Obvious oversimplification of the issues to lure people into making the obvious rebuttal
-Refusal to concede any point without various proofs so that people will need to return to the thread with acceptable "evidence" then ignoring that evidence to return to earlier repeated points in order to inflame the person who just did the extra work to provide the evidence who now feels like their time was wasted.
Granted, the thread wouldn't likely stay on the front page without him and thus, we wouldn't have a constant forum for Jeremy, Crusher, Jensen, et al. to make Pelut's actions better known.
Normally would say don't feed the troll, but he serves a good purpose in this case, so troll on.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Oct 16, 2012 - 07:29pm PT
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And they claim the new route seems a "chalked up" new route when seen from the ground. Any intention of repeting it and then talk. Why? Just go there, look it through binocles and give your opinion... Prejudice?
Funny, this post from Rivet Hanger seems to be exactly why Jensen chose to continue the route instead of bailing: because if he hadn't and had just reported that from below the rest of the climb was a bunch of drilled bashie holes, he'd have been criticized by the route's defenders for not actually climbing it.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 17, 2012 - 03:00am PT
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Thank you.
This thread has gotten so silly that it's now clear to me that, with this POS route, I was going to get criticized by somebody no matter what.
But the big picture here is now clear, regardless of RH's dodging and nit-picky criticisms of the SA:
1) Ridiculously-hyped "route"
2) Unnecessary, drilled-up, hyped "hook anchor" for (joke of a) rating
3) Totally manufactured, artificial-"difficulty" non-line
4) Huge, drilled bashie holes on average about every 24 inches
5) Virtually every placement drilled (with a heavy hand)
6) Non-forthcoming FA tactics
7) Unrepeatable with sustainable tactics
8) Basically a beat-senseless, utter botch-job
Now I'm the last guy to dicker over this or that placement, and there are NO "perfect" aid routes. The spectrum of "widely acceptable" tactics is huge, with MANY people hating this or that particular tactic.
But THIS thing was completely beyond the pale by ANY measure. THIS thing was not even a CLIMB. And that's what needed reporting.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 17, 2012 - 05:33am PT
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So let's troll!
-Constant repetition of the same idea over and over so people will feel compelled to point that out. I agree, always the same idea: the treatment to FA team and the Jensen's actions are not far away the same. Pelut is not American and that's why he does not deserves any respect although he has repeated Intifada, Weird Science, opened new hard routes in the Towers and around and has repeated hard aid routes in Europe that obviously none of you know and don't have any intenttion to know. A SA of an American man who was there alone it's enough to discredit...
-Ad hominem attacks to incite people to defend themselves and others. Not the half of ad hominem attacks, lies and jokes to FA team. Just llok older posts...
-Unwilling to post links and instead telling you to go find them yourself thus making you chase your tail for things that there's no reason to belive exist. They do exist, even Raymond has been able to find'em. If you find out a FB profile, you should be able to find the web page of this brand profile. It's really easy!
-Obvious oversimplification of the issues to lure people into making the obvious rebuttal. Rebuttal?
-Refusal to concede any point without various proofs so that people will need to return to the thread with acceptable "evidence" then ignoring that evidence to return to earlier repeated points in order to inflame the person who just did the extra work to provide the evidence who now feels like their time was wasted. Pelut was in the Towers last summer and contacted Jensen many times via web and absolute NO ANSWER although it's clear Jensen hat internet access. More evidence than that? Normal people would at least answer and have a meeting to talk about, unless your intentions don't include this possibility and just include bolts and rivets...
Granted, the thread wouldn't likely stay on the front page without him and thus, we wouldn't have a constant forum for Jeremy, Crusher, Jensen, et al. to make Pelut's actions better known. Wasn't exactly Pelut who created an ex-profeso web month ago to reveal the supposed fake of the route, and of course, he does not retrobolt a route when making a SA... He didn't even made that when repeating Intifada or opening Look out. Normal people usually first do climb and then explain...
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 17, 2012 - 05:48am PT
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Rivet hanger, what about the many drilled holes filled with bashies on Look out danger! ?
Is that good aid climbing style in Spain?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:09am PT
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Obviously that's not a good aid climbing style anywhere, Raymond.
But your reference is someone who decides to bolt the route and climbs alone...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:12am PT
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Prejudice?
Let me tell a little story....
When I was a graduate student and teaching assistant at UC Santa Barbara, I had about fifty under-grad students in one of my sections. I was responsible to lecture three times a week, proctor exams, and grade all homework and papers for my section. The main term paper was to be submitted in three drafts, giving two opportunities to rewrite (and, hopefully, improve).
The first draft from one student was so bad that I gave it an 'F' grade and asked the student to come to my office so that we could discuss strategies for radical improvement.
After about an hour of discussion with the student, I was becoming increasingly aware that the student utterly lacked the ability to "get" what I was trying to convey because the student suffered from a complete lack of basic writing skills, and I suggested that the student visit the campus writing center to get help with the basics of writing. That was the point at which the student played the race/gender/prejudice card:
"Well, there is the other explanation for why you failed my paper."
"Really? What's that 'other explanation?'"
"Well, I am a black woman, and you are a white man...."
At that point I told her: "We're done here. I will be immediately taking your paper and your 'suggestion' to the course professor as well as to the academic standards committee, and I will be filing a complete report about this matter. With your one sentence you are gunning at my entire career. So let me explain this for your benefit. Your race, ethnic heritage, gender, or any other such thing is completely irrelevant to the grade I gave you. I don't care if you are a purple-with-pink-polka-dotted transgender person; this draft was complete crap, and I graded it as crap and encouraged you to come get help making it into something other than crap. You have refused help and turned this into something else. Now this crap will see a 'wider audience.'"
She started crying and apologizing, but the damage had already been done. We must report ALL such exchanges!
I did what I had said. The result for her was that she was failed from the entire course, and her play of the race/gender card was made a part of her permanent academic file. Had she taken my help and suggestions instead, she would have almost undoubtedly passed the course and just moved on.
RH (and any other lurking FA supporters): The FA of Weak Sauce was an EPIC botch, and not one single point you've tried to make changes that fact.
Even IF it were true (and it's not) that I didn't respond to Pelut's communications, that is irrelevant. The FA was still an epic botch.
Even IF it were true (and it's not) that I went up there TO discredit Pelut, that is irrelevant. He still did what he did on the FA (and I've proved it), and the FA was an EPIC botch.
Even IF it were true (and it's not) that I totally botched the SA, that changes nothing about the facts of the FA, and the FA was an EPIC botch.
Even IF it were true (and it's not) that we pissy Americans are ALL totally prejudiced toward non-American climbers, THAT changes nothing about the tactics of the FA, which was an EPIC botch.
Just as with my former student, there is an OBJECTIVE fact of the matter regarding the FA of Weak Sauce, and that FACT is that the FA was an EPIC botch, a complete and utter FAIL. Not one of your "arguments" or accusations changes anything about that fact. My student wrote a crap paper and got graded accordingly. Pelut put up a CRAP route and got graded accordingly.
Now, imagine that my former student had gone all over campus (about 35,000 other students) spraying that her paper was the FINEST paper EVER written, that it was far, far, FAR (!!!!) better than ANY other paper ever written. EVER! Think about how FAR apart such claims would have been from reality! Imagining that scenario will give you SOME sense of the VAST disconnect between the claims and the reality regarding the FA of Weak Sauce. And THAT's what arouses MY ire, not some prejudice!
Weak Sauce not only was NOT the hardest, most impressive aid climb EVER done (as was claimed), but it was at the absolute opposite end of the spectrum. It was arguably the biggest and most pitiful BOTCH JOB ever done.
Even with the unenviable tactics Beyer employed on the FA of Intifada, he at least had a LINE there, and a pretty cool one at that. He used the FEATURES of the rock! Pelut should have learned something from it. By contrast, Weak Sauce has no LINE, and its FA was not even a CLIMB. It is just virtually-random wanderings all over a mostly blank wall, drilling the whole way. Even what features there are were drilled!
So, give up the pathetic "race card" in this discussion. It makes you look as petulant and foolish as was my former student. And it changes nothing about the EPIC FAIL that was the FA.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:16am PT
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Since my point of view Richard, for you the route was yet a botch months before you even drilled the first bolt 2 m above the ground, that's the problem...
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:16am PT
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My reference?
So you agree that the route was put up in bad style but you still defend the route?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:22am PT
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But your reference is someone ho decides to bolt the route and climbs alone...
Be crystal clear, RH. No more vague "suggestions" on this point!
ARE you saying that I am lying about the FA? If so, be specific! EXACTLY how am I lying?
And what do the tactics of the SA have ANYTHING to do with the tactics of the FA? I reported on the tactics of the FA.
Explain, and be CLEAR about it. To help you with that, here are specific questions you can answer:
1) Does Pelut deny drilling his way up the route, with the drill used for virtually every placement?
2) Does Pelut deny drilling big holes in blank rock and filling them with massive bashies that he (in most cases) jerked out, leaving blown-out, useless holes that would need re-drilling to be useful?
3) Does Pelut deny drilling a hole (on average) every 24 inches up the route?
4) Does Pelut deny trenching heads for virtually every placement where there was anything resembling a "seam?"
5) Does Pelut deny drilling massive holes and filling them with wooden wedges that he removed?
6) Does Pelut deny claiming that the route was A6+?
7) Does Pelut deny that he was utterly ignorant of the fact that Intifada had been significantly down-rated something like 18 YEARS prior to his ascent of it?
I could go on and on, but that's a good start. Answer those questions and explain EXACTLY what you are trying to float about my integrity and honesty.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:25am PT
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the route was yet a botch months before you even drilled the first bolt 2 m above the ground
EXACTLY right!
The route was what it was two years before I ever got there. The FACTS of the FA were established before I ever got there and REGARDLESS of any pre-conceived notions I had about it. There are just OBJECTIVE facts, and my (fabled) pre-conceptions changed nothing about those facts.
It's not like BECAUSE I had these (fabled) pre-conceptions that the FA was a botch. It was a botch because of what PELUT DID. PELUT made it a botch, not me.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:25am PT
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Don't ask me, ask FA team. But all these questions could have been explained talking with Pelut and Ster last summer, but you DID NOT EVEN ANSWER their request! They were in Moab for more than a month!
Why were you hiding? You need answers now, not in June?
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:29am PT
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Don't ask me, ask FA tema. But all these questions could have been cleared talking with Pelut and Ster last summer, but you DID NOT EVEN ANSWER their request! They were in Moab for more than a month!
Why were you hiding? You need answers now, not in June?
This only make you look stupid. Do you really believe that there is no chance that Richard didn't check for new comments on his homepage during that time?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:48am PT
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And one final post for now....
RH, you keep referring to the respect we should have for Pelut because of his (many?) other (supposedly) awesome ascents.
Were those ascents as "awesome" as his ascent of Weak Sauce?
I can't speak to those other ascents. I can only speak to THIS one, so I limit my comments to what I actually observed.
Here's what I observe about Pelut's climbing, as DEMONSTRATED by Weak Sauce:
1) The guy can't even man-up enough to get a placement below his waist before he's groping for another one, even on less than vertical rock.
2) The guy is HEAVY-handed with ALL he does to the rock. Maybe Crusher thinks it's okay what we saw in the video, with Pelut BEATING kilograms of rock loose so that he could BURY that pecker almost to the point of invisibility; but MOST aid climbers are going to call what we saw in that video clip EXCESSIVE and heavy-handed! I saw that and much more on Weak Sauce.
3) The guy has NO ability to route-find. The "route" that is Weak Sauce made virtually no sense. He just wandered at random from useless "feature" to useless feature, drilling and trenching the whole way.
4) The guy has no aesthetic sense about using the FEATURES of the rock and conforming himself to what the rock presents.
5) The guy got into "drilling mode" and, consequently didn't even employ MANY natural features that WERE there to be had (if he had used a light touch).
Again, I could go on and on. But, like my former student, Pelut evidenced that he didn't even know the BASICS of good aid climbing. But then he sprayed to the whole world that he was THE MASTER! So much the master, in fact, that NO other route in history had even come close.
So, I'm not talking about Pelut's other ascents. I don't presently respect him as a climber because of what I CAN observe and HAVE observed first-hand. And I don't presently respect either him or YOU, because you have so lamely tried to dodge the FACTS of the FA by shifting attention to the (necessary) tactics of the SA.
You don't like the first bolt? It's right next to the first drilled bashie Pelut placed (you can see him gripping his bashie as he points to my bolt). So who gives a crap? It's irrelevant, as is EVERY bolt/rivet I drilled on the SA. NONE of them matter, because they were ALL just necessary drilling to GET UP the PILE that was left behind by the FA. There was NO "good style" to be HAD on that "route!" And I did the SA in FAR, FAR better style than the FA. LOL
Pelut left a "route" that could ONLY be climbed on the SA with a LOT of retro-bolting, and I do not apologize for doing what needed to be done to get that job done. It's just a sad, sad state of affairs. There's NOTHING to be proud of in the SA, and if somebody wants to go chop the POS, more power to them! But the SA does document what was done on the FA, and the facts of the FA cannot be changed.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:58am PT
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Stupid me... I can't resist now that I'm back into this increasingly stupid thread....
They were in Moab for more than a month!
Why is the failure to communicate ALL on me in your mind? I was not "hiding." I was there on the route in plain sight!
IF Pelut was in Moab during my SA, then WHY didn't he come to the route even ONCE during that whole month?
Until I had worked my way almost halfway up, I was coming down every weekend (three times) to restock on water (hot, hot, HOT!) I literally could not CARRY enough water up there. So I was in Moab repeatedly, AND Pelut knew from my blog that I was on the route. He obviously knew where the route was!
If Pelut was SO interested in meeting with me, then WHY didn't HE arrange to meet with me? And even without e-contact with me, All he had to do was go the the PARKING LOT now and then, or hike up to the route ONCE, and he would have connected up with me.
Don't try to float this BS! And, again, it's totally, completely irrelevant. The FACTS of the FA are what they are, regardless of whether I met with Pelut or not.
What do you think... that I would have met the man and changed my report because I would have LIKED him, or something like that? I saw what I saw. I documented what I saw. And nothing about what I saw was going to be changed by meeting with Pelut.
Another lame, pathetic red herring on your part. Give it up. It doesn't float (except perhaps belly-up like the dead fish that it is).
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 17, 2012 - 11:01am PT
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Again a lack of rigorousness before giving an opinion, something that could be solved just reading previous posts!
Look at Jensen's web page (http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger); and you'll find out that Pelut contacted him during June, and specially at the beginning of August to have a meeting with him because he was in the Towers. But, oh surprise, no answer given (well, yes, given at mid september after you had written it in this thred). A good explanation could be that Richy didn't have internet access? No, my friends, mysteriously Jensen posted on this thred on August 7th but didn't even answer Pelut... Cooperation attitude?
By the way, Jeremy took this picture from Pelut's video that everybody can see on youtube...
But, oh surprise, Jensen also has his own version of the hook anchor, a little bit different. In addition of bolts and rivets, he also is weak sauce because drills the holes deeper to place angles!
And by the way, Richy, you don't really see a line there? Curious because the photo is yours and 1rt pitch seems to me a clear small crack...
So, why should I/we belive Jensen's report? He was out there alone...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 17, 2012 - 11:41am PT
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Be very careful calling me a liar, RH. If you want to back that up, then get over here to the States, meet with ME, and say it to my face. I've paid my dues for decades in the climbing community to demonstrate that I tell the truth. Pretty easy for a simpering weasel like you to pop off from across the sea. Say it to my face, and we'll see who's still standing, and I mean that. I don't lie. You've crossed the line with your hopeless "defense" of the indefensible.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 17, 2012 - 11:50am PT
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Wow, Jensen, stay calmed!
I don't see I've called you liar. These pics are taken from youtube and the web page you created, everybody can check it out, so no explanation? Pelut has had to bear much more s%it than this...
By the way, I see that when it's necessary you are synthetic. That's good!
And it's not with me that you should have a meeting, ironic and didactic that didn't even answer Pelut's meeting requests.
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 17, 2012 - 11:59am PT
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One problem with you rivet hanger is that you seem to see evidence where there really is no evidence.
Having access to internet is not the same thing as reading everything posting on the internet, not even the same thing as looking if there are any new comments on his own webpage.
Youtube videos showing cables sticking out of holes do not prove that the depth of the holes is not enough to almost fit a whole angle.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 17, 2012 - 12:03pm PT
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Ok Raymond, once I drilled a 1 meter deep hole on granite to place a alumihead, it makes full sense.
Come on, man. At least it reinforce the No-American climber prejudice theory...
And yes, someone who creates an ex-profeso web page months ago to discredit the route it's obvious that do not have any system of alarm when new posts on your own webside. All post are answered 2 days after in the worst cases, but Pelut one's from 4th August on...
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Oct 17, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
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KITTEN FIGHT!
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 17, 2012 - 12:27pm PT
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Ok Raymond, once I drilled a 1 meter deep hole on granite to place a alumihead, it makes full sense.
Sorry, but I do not know much about the practice of drilled copperheads so I do not know why he drilled that deep. Nice exaggeration though. That did your argument so much better.
Come on, man. At least it reinforce the No-American climber prejudice...
Why is Pelut quite about the drilling and the depth of the holes?
And yes, someone who creates an ex-profeso web page months ago to discredit the route it's obvious that do not have any system of alarm when new posts on your own webside...
I don't know if that is obvious or not.
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Oct 17, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
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why does Pelut need this other guy to defend him, where is he?
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Oct 17, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
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I miss the ponies
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 17, 2012 - 02:24pm PT
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he also is weak sauce because drills the holes deeper to place angles!
why should I/we belive Jensen's report? He was out there alone...
I don't see I've called you liar.
So, you don't see where you're calling me a liar? Hmm... strange. Let me clear it up for you.
I didn't drill any holes deeper. I've said that before. So, when you say that I did, you call me a liar.
My pictures show what PELUT did on the route, and I didn't change anything to make things look worse. My being alone up there has nothing to do with this because... wait for it... I'm not lying about what I found.
The picture you show as "proof" about the hook anchor demonstrates nothing of substance. As I said before, no picture shows the LOWER placement, the one below the hook anchor, the one that is another DEEP hole. That picture you recently posted is no exception. The gloved hand and helmet obscure the part of the rock where that placement is. And no picture I've seen shows what that LOWER placement is.
As I've said before, I don't know what Pelut put in those holes. What I do KNOW, however, is that they were drilled out deep enough to take baby angles almost to the eye before I got there.
But, again, as I've said ad nauseum, ALL of this talk about particular placements misses the big point. And I wouldn't even be having this discussion if only a few placements here and there were at issue.
THE issue here is NOT about this or that particular placement. THE issue is that Pelut drilled a bashie ladder for about 1000 feet up the side of the Titan. There was no "line" there. And if you think that the 35-foot seam at the start of the first pitch is sufficient to demonstrate a "line," then you are even more out of touch with climbing reality than you already seem to demonstrate that you are.
For the last time... I reported and documented exactly what I found on the route. I didn't lie about it in the slightest, and I didn't change anything about what PELUT did on the FA.
Furthermore, I didn't go up there to "discredit the route," as you keep insisting. My blog was originally for friends and family who contributed money to help me pay for the ascent. (If that's comparable to ongoing corporate sponsorship, then smite me!) Until I started this thread on the Taco, nobody but friends and family had been to the blog.
And the blog said nothing about discrediting the ROUTE. The most negative thing I had to say before the SA was that I doubted the RATING! I was pretty confident that the A6+ rating was a JOKE, because I simply don't believe in A6, must less A6+. And, RH, even YOU must admit that Pelut was IGNORANT about Intifada when he did it. So, yes, I did believe that I was going to down-rate the route.
But, all that said, I also believed that the route would be hard and a real test. So, I was NOT about going up to "discredit the route." I thought that the ROUTE might well be the real-deal, even if it was over-rated.
It wasn't until I was well into the first pitch and was seeing Pelut's tactics that I was angered and started THIS thread, starting the public discrediting of the ROUTE! So, be clear about this... I didn't start my blog or the route with ANY intention of "discrediting the route." My discrediting of the route started ONLY after I was ON the pile and saw what Pelut had done. And, even THEN, I became determined to finish the thing to see ALL the way up if there was ANYTHING worthy on the heap. I wanted to report on it completely and fairly. I have done exactly that.
So, don't try to float this as me doing the SA with the predetermination of discrediting the route, and then screwing the route up and lying about it TO discredit it. Not the slightest aspect of that theory has any merit.
If you keep floating that theory now, you ARE calling me a liar, and there's no dancing your way around that. So, DECIDE! Either I'm lying or I'm not. If I'm not, then Pelut totally and completely botched this ascent. And if you say that I AM lying about ANY of what I'm reporting, then, again, you need to get Stateside and have the huevos to tell me that to my face.
And, btw, I had exactly ZERO duty to meet with Pelut. The posts in which you say he was asking for a meeting were not clear to me. He wrote in Spanish, and Google translate does a terrible job of it! The impression I got from his few posts was that he'd like to sit down for a drink sometime. There was no timeline suggested and no sense of urgency at all. I honestly had no idea that he wanted to meet with me RIGHT THEN.
If there was that much urgency, and he was right there in Moab for a month, then the duty was on HIM to meet with me, not the other way around. I was there. He knew where to find me! I owed him NOTHING, and nothing he would have said to me at that time would have had the slightest effect on what I reported about the route. So, you are, yet again, throwing out a dead red herring. The most you can say is that I was "discourteous." Oh well. If so, it wasn't intentional. And, even if I was, big deal. It changes nothing about the material facts of the FA.
RH, I'm literally starting to think that you are not Pelut's friend but are instead his enemy. Everything you are writing seems DESIGNED to subtly make Pelut look worse and worse. If your comments and arguments are what count as a "defense" of Pelut, then Pelut doesn't need ANY enemies with "friends" like you!
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 17, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
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Well, since my point of view, both pics are eloquent enough, and it's clear that you made the holes deeper to place the angles, at least the one above the the hook anchor as seen on your own photo...
If at this objective fact seen on both photos, the fact that you directly bolted the route is added (I guess that first you put the rivet/bolt and then you hang on it, a thing that obviously change the risk, although only you know this...), your credibility is seriously in doubt since a rational point of view. But as everybody in this thred seems that won't never admit this (prejudice against non-american aid climbers), I have to repeat it ad nauseum... Well, as supertopo is followed worldwide, at least your inexactitudes won't remain as a complete truth.
And by the way, Pelut at least has had the bollocks to upload his own photos about your havoc of the route, something that is quite clear that I didn't do last summer...
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 17, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
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But as everybody in this thred seems that won't never admit this (prejudice against non-american aid climbers), I have to repeat it ad nauseum... Well, as supertopo is followed worldwide, at least your inexactitudes won't stay as a complete truth.
Why is it that you are the only non american that defend Pelut here on supertopo if most of them agree with your view?
I still have a very hard time understanding how the issue can be about prejudice when Pelut clearly put up the route in very bad style.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 17, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
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Hey, I was weak as an aid climber, ok make that climber, but at least I top-stepped!
"If the piece yer standin' on ain't at yer knees then ya better have a gud excuse."
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Oct 17, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Oct 17, 2012 - 06:36pm PT
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RH,
How good of head did Pelut give to make you so stoked on him raping the Titan?
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
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RH,
How good of head did Pelut give to make you so stoked on him raping the Titan?
Now bringmedeath, be nice. You know full well that RH has said that he doesn't always understand all of our slang terms.
I'll translate for you RH
Bringmedeath asked how good Pelut was at giving you oral sex in order to make you so focused on defending his actions of forcing himself up a route that the Titan did not consent to.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 17, 2012 - 08:53pm PT
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Ah yes...the Compressor Route of the Fisher Towers.
Heh... not quite. I'm sure that Maestri got better than 24 inches between drilled placements. BTW, I was never clear from your report. Did Pelut add holes to your route?
RH: Now you can't deny that you are calling me a liar. You have no huevos, saying that from across the sea. But, no problem. At this point you've succeeded in adding the final, bottom of the barrel level of discredit to the whole sordid affair. When the best you can say to "defend" this crap is that I lied, well, I doubt you're gonna find that gets much traction in the international community. Good luck with that.
If Pelut has "friends" like you, he doesn't need enemies.
'Nuff said.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 02:27am PT
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Indeed, and well stated.
IMO Richard, at this point the facts of the matter are crystal clear to anyone who matters and has been paying attention.
We've also successfully hit the 500 post target set up earlier in the thread.
I'd say we can call it a day until a third party cleans it all up. Meanwhile...
But first, below this post we present a bunch more drivel from Rivet Hangar.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 18, 2012 - 03:36am PT
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Yeah Richy, according to Crunch pics, you also put rivets/bolts every 24 inches, and although putting eurobashies as you call them is not a good style, everybody can understand that the risk is not exactly the same...
Maestri Route's Tower is a good definition of what you did, or exactly a rivet/bolt ladder. This picture is yours, and it doesn't seem that you exactly went to the last step of the aider to place them... 24 inches?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 18, 2012 - 03:43am PT
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And to others asking for morbid fascination, thank you for translation and the answer is: the same kind of oral sex that your respective mothers used to practice in every corner of their native town before meeting your alcholohic daddy, but with a big difference, I never swallow the load as they always did... ;-)
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 03:48am PT
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This picture is yours, and it doesn't seem that you exactly went to the last step of the aider to place them... 24 inches?
I would suggest that you at least show a pic of one of Richards rivets if you want to make an argument about how high he steps when placing a rivet :)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 18, 2012 - 03:50am PT
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RH, at this point you're obviously so far gone that it has become quite entertaining (in a sort of fascinated-horror sort of way).
Your first pic actually shows three of Pelut's holes in the same space as two of mine. The third hole is between the two really obvious ones, in a more crumbly area of rock. So, that pic actually MAKES my very point! What a laugh!
And the second pic is showing two of Pelut's "mini-bolts," not mine at all. Also, that's an overhanging area, where placements would naturally be closer together anyway, so I wouldn't even bash on Pelut if this were the only example of his hole-distance. Sadly, this is FAR from being the only example.
Keep posting! You are just showing yourself to be more and more Pelut's ENEMY, not his friend. The climbing community is just getting more and more evidence about WHAT an utter botch the FA was, as well as seeing the sorts of wild, outrageous "arguments" you must resort to for a "defense" of the pile.
Keep it coming. LOL
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 18, 2012 - 03:59am PT
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Let's look at your supplied pic a bit more closely, RH. We actually see that Pelut drilled three holes in a shorter span than I drilled two. And, unlike particularly that middle blow-out, what I did is sustainable drilling. If the route lasts, before too many years pass the majority of Pelut's blown-out holes will become obscured by erosion and mud... Good-bye botch job!
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 18, 2012 - 04:03am PT
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Well, since my point of view it shows a bolt ladder...
At least this time you don't accuse the FA of hiding the holes with mud as you did on Intifada. But still no explanation of angles in the hook anchor...
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 04:06am PT
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But still no explanation of angles in the hook anchor...
Yes, why don't Pelut answer that one? Cant you ask him to make a comment about those holes and all other holes on the route?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 18, 2012 - 04:31am PT
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But still no explanation of angles in the hook anchor...
You know the really funny/ironic part about this aspect of the SA? I didn't even FIND the "hook anchor" until I was cleaning the pitch. I went right past it during the lead, because that small ledge was so covered over by flowing mud! So, the irony to me is that I was amazed at how deep those holes were through that section, because they were much deeper than other places on the first pitch. But I didn't then realize how those deeper holes related to the "hook anchor."
Only during the clean did it start to make sense to me, because those much deeper holes are exactly above and below the "hook anchor," right where they would need to be if you wanted more secure placements there on the FA! So, laughably, I wouldn't even have known WHERE to drill out holes deeper IF my nefarious purpose was to discredit the "hook anchor" by drilling/lying. MOST of the holes on the route are not that deep. So, why are they only that deep just above and below the "hook anchor?"
Again, I await an account (with pic-proof) of what the FA team used in the lower of those two angle holes. And HOW big/deep of special bashies did Pelut use in THOSE holes, even if they were bashies. They sure weren't going anywhere!
"Hook anchor...." Yeah, right. Drilled hooks and DEEPLY drilled holes fore and aft.
As Raymond repeatedly asks, let's hear Pelut answer for himself. You, RH, are doing him no service at this point.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 18, 2012 - 06:04am PT
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Well, at the moment only Jeremy and Paul can pic-proof things if they want, but what I say is that your credibility tends to zero having in account what you did on the route and what yourself uploaded in your web page. A web page created on March 31 although you started the SA on mid May and in which you don't even answer Pelut's meetings request, something that a normal people would have done...
Let's see (pics come from Jensen's web page and this supertopo thred)...
Storm of applause and a huge ovation! Superhoero of aid-climbing!
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 06:30am PT
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Mighty respectable RH, but there's a few points I'd like to make with some photos of my own if I may...
Your arguments are innately ad hominem, and irrelevant. What say you, gunsmoke?
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 06:59am PT
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Why didn't Pelut himself comment about all the holes that it is now claimed that Rickard drilled on the second ascent while claiming that it was Pelut that drilled those holes?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 18, 2012 - 06:59am PT
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I say prejudice against non-american aid climbers, my friend!
For umpteenth time, a rational person would say, ok, perhaps the FA team didn't openend the route with in a good style (so let's put down in words), but since the SA was a complete destruction (retrobolting) of the route since the first meter, and since it is pretty clear that at least he lied on the angle above the hook anchors, this man has a very poor credibility although in the past he has said the true about WOS. In addition, he didn't answer Pelut meeting requests on a web page that he had ex-professo created 1,5 months ago to even begin the SA, so how can we know that all that he shows is true? Can we wait until he releases the so announced video? And in addition, we cannot ignore that the FA team had repeated well-known hard aid-climbs (remember that Intifada is A4+/A5 rated, so perhaps nobody should write they should learn to climb...) and have opened new hard routes, so perhaps they deserve a little bit more of respect than the one showed specially at the beginning of this thred. More or less is just this what rational people would expect to find...
But again I do not expect anything else than new hoax, taunt, etc...
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 07:35am PT
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I really do not know if you are a troll or just stupid. You have not proved without a doubt the richard lied about the deep holes around the hook anchor because it is impossibly to tell the depth of the hole from a video. Over and over you say that rickard should have answer a post on his homepage a month after the last activity on that site and written in a language that I am not sure if Richard understands (and the google translations is not really that good).
You just see things in pics that no one else sees. If you for example look at the picture of the first pitch that you show above you see that the peckers is below the cooperheads and that it is impossibly to see what pelut is attached to.
I just find it strange that you want more and more information from everyone except Pelut. If pelut at least had said that he didn't drill a lot of the placements on the route we would at least have a situation where words stands against words. Now is it Richards words against your imagination.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Oct 18, 2012 - 09:26am PT
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 09:28am PT
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Any change of position expected as I told...
Why should anyone change position when your posts do not show or prove anything new?
I am thinking about going to Montserrat with a hammer and chisel to chip a couple of routes behind the monastery (or maybe even glue on some holds on the monastery so people can get in a good workout without having to walk far from the restaurant). If someone complain is it only to play the prejudice card.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Oct 18, 2012 - 09:52am PT
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It's about goddamn time we had some PowerPoint graphics.
HO
LEE
FUKK
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 09:57am PT
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I say prejudice against non-american aid climbers, my friend!
For umpteenth time, a rational person would say, ok, perhaps the FA team didn't openend the route with in a good style (so let's put down in words), but since the SA was a complete destruction (retrobo
Sweet Pete, our new line of SmarTrolls - the RH-500s - is ready to hit production, but as the prototype demonstrates, the RH can't learn. WHY CAN'T THE RH LEARN???
...Oh well.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 10:14am PT
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Look, Rivet Hanger,
I'm going to say this once, as politely as possible.
This is Luna. She is an Alicorn, essentially a goddess of the night. She was imprisoned in the moon for a thousand years by her sister Celestia, goddess of the day, due to a potentially genocidal falling out between them. She was restored by the Elements of Harmony and she and her sister patched things up. And now, she's hanging out with ducks.
Adorable baby ducks.
This has as much bearing on the quality of the FA as anything you have thus far presented.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHERE I AM GOING WITH THIS?!
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oct 18, 2012 - 10:29am PT
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Well Rivit.. I do admire your tenacity, but I agree that your defense may be doing Pelut more harm than good at this point. The arguments are getting insane and there are some fundamental differences in perception about ethics and what constitutes "destruction" that we will never agree on.
I say prejudice against non-american aid climbers, my friend!
Rivit. I can assure you this has nothing to do with Pelut being "non American" American climbers are passionate about discussing ethics in general. Had the FA been done by an American I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that this thread and all the arguing and attacks would be no different. The criticism of Pelut rest on his tactics and his outrageous claims, not the fact that he is a Spaniard. Battles rage all the time and to my knowledge, this is the first time a foreigner has been at the center of it. so I'd put that accusation to rest.
This thread doesn't hold a candle to the WOS debate which has something like 2000 posts from arm-chair critics on this site alone. Richard defended himself for years against his fellow Americans and in the end he was vindicated so we have every reason to believe what he says to be totally true. Even you agree.:
For umpteenth time, a rational person would say, ok, perhaps the FA team didn't openend the route with in a good style (so let's put down in words), but since the SA was a complete destruction (retrobolting) of the route since the first meter, and since it is pretty clear that at least he lied on the angle above the hook anchors, this man has a very poor credibility although in the past he has said the true about WOS.
Consider me a nuetral bystander BTW. As a conservationist - any hard nailing anywhere, by anyone, on any piece of rock, seems abhorrent to me. My opinion has zero weight but I'll stand behind the Fischer Towers since they have no voice. The best outcome for this whole ordeal would be for a third ascent to chop it all. Remove every piece of metal (and wood?) and let the mud flow and erase this travesty. The towers deserve better.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 18, 2012 - 10:33am PT
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This could be a metaphoric story about how prejudices should be left apart? Or even in the case of existing, racinality should prevale over them?
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 10:40am PT
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Just in case I'm being unclear, your arguments have all the sense of Pinkie Pie acting as a detective, the wisdom of Twilight Sparkle deciding that time travel is a good idea, and the precision of Derpy Hooves conducting surgery after drinking a case of whiskey. Your buddy Pelut desperately needs a new PR guy, and in any case you're remaining intentionally blind to just about everything that anyone in this thread has been trying to tell you regarding Pelut and his climbing style and ethics.
If you were to remove your own blinders of "this is all just american prejudice", open your eyes and take a good, frank look at the mess this FA was, you would have to admit that you know what Pelut Pony's cutie mark would be...
By the way, could you do me a favor and post something just below here that reinforces your stubborn, insistent, relentless, and even _magical_ refusal to understand or acknowledge what anyone has been trying to tell you?
Ah, there we are, thank you!
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 18, 2012 - 10:41am PT
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Ok, justthemaid I agree partially with your vision, but since my point of view, you should condemn with more enrgy Jensen's actions. And I do repeat that I only speak in my own name, don't be tricky...
I'll introduce another fact. Check out the Look out! Danger! uploaded on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny7dT0CpKZg); and tell me how many bashie holes do you see? Will Jensen release a video showing his ascent as announced? Will he explain why he placed 2 bolts 2 meters on the ground as Pelut showed in a pic and that I'd love Jeremy and Paul could confirm or not? Is this fact compatible with trying to climb a really hard aid climbing route?
And by the way, you really don't use wood to wedge some pieces? Check out the video and you'll se more wedged pitons than bashie holes... And of course, you won't see three angles arround the 1st belay...
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 10:45am PT
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Will he explain why he placed 2 bolts 2 meters on the ground?
Are you dense or something? He did this earlier in the thread.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 10:51am PT
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What you're failing to get - over and over and over - is that Jensen's SA and you or his or anyone else's ambivalence about going through with it - does not let Pelut off the hook.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 11:10am PT
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Aye.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 18, 2012 - 11:12am PT
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I just know some land manager is gonna use this thread at an upcoming conference.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Oct 18, 2012 - 11:32am PT
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This is a classic thread: rock (well, mud) climbing, hook anchors, ponies and lots 'o controversy. Would that route go free if you used the bashie holes as finger pockets?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 18, 2012 - 11:36am PT
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Sure, no danger at all, bolts have yet been placed and even chain anchors! Well, the typical thing someone expects in a hard aid-climbing route...
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 11:42am PT
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This thread is worthless without Pelut, is he scared of the mean Americans?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 18, 2012 - 11:49am PT
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more likely he's scared of the f*#king ponies
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
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Sure, no danger at all, bolts have yet been placed and even chain anchors! Well, the typical thing someone expects in a hard aid-climbing route...
Since "Look Out! Danger!" isn't a hard aid-climbing route, as is apparently mostly A1/2 with a few sections of A3, bolts and chain anchors are hardly out of place.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Oct 18, 2012 - 12:54pm PT
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Ugh RH, To repeat what you refused to read earlier.
Quoting Blackspider upthread
RH Says: What I think is that your ego was hardly wounded by the not-so-megahyperextreme A5 WOS (just A3+, isn't it?) and you had to discharge your frustration somehow. You downrated Intifada from A6 to A4+ and Ammon downrated your A5 to A3+. Beyer was a little bit more right than you anyway...[/Quote]
Blackspider responds:
This is a completely apples-to-oranges comparison because the aid climbing grade scale has been widely readjusted over the past 30 years, and many "A5" routes from the same rough time period as Wings of Steel are now considered A4 or even A3/+. Also, Ammon had access to modern gear (small cams, etc.) that the FA team didn't (don't know how much this affected the grade but he made a point of mentioning that it helped on certain pitches). Whereas Intifada has been subject to downgrades by multiple parties without any reference (that I can tell) to "new wave/old school" grading discrepancies, nor does newer equipment appear to be a factor; it was just over-graded.
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
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It really is something wrong with rivet hanger.
I'll introduce another fact. Check out the Look out! Danger! uploaded on youtube ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny7dT0CpKZg); and tell me how many bashie holes do you see?
Will Jensen release a video showing his ascent as announced?
No as he has already have told you.
Will he explain why he placed 2 bolts 2 meters on the ground as Pelut showed in a pic
He already has explained why he placed one bolt. If you look at Pelut's pic again you would see 1 bolt.
Is this fact compatible with trying to climb a really hard aid climbing route?
Yes, good anchors is usually allowed on hard aid climbs.
Check out the video and you'll se more wedged pitons than bashie holes...
The video evidence again... Do you realize that it is possibly to place hundreds of bashie holes without showing all of them on video?
And of course, you won't see three angles arround the 1st belay...
You are so dense. Richard said that the holes could take angles not that Pelut necessary had placed angles.
Well, WOS has been downrated for SA team (Ammon and Kait) from A5 to A3+... Not so scary as FA team claimed.
already explained a couple of times.
But just a difference, Ammon showed much more respect for the route and didn't retobolt it and reported the ascent after and not 1,5 months before...
I believe that it was well known before the ascent that ammon would climb the route and that it was going to be a film and article about the climb. Not a large difference from making a homepage about a project.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 18, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
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RH: Since you ARE now flat-out accusing me of lying, I will ask you what would have motivated me to lie.
Oh, right... your theory is that I was pre-motivated to "discredit the route," so I went up there TO drill out the route and lie about it to "discredit the route."
Okay, what would have motivated me to do that?
Oh, right... your theory is that I was motivated by my prejudice against non-American climbers.
FAIL
The problem you face now is that it is clear to everybody that the ONLY "defense" you have of Pelut and this "route" now is to claim that I substantially and materially lied about the tactics of the FA. That's going to be a mighty hard case to make....
1) I have a multi-decade history in the climbing community of being brutally honest about everything I've done on my ascents. I've been honest even when it clearly wasn't in my interest to be so honest. So, you'd have to come up with some theory of motivation that would explain why SUDDENLY I abandoned my honesty and integrity JUST to discredit this one particular route. Do you really think that your "prejudice" theory (in the absolute absence of ANY evidence to support it) is a strong enough motivation to make me abandon decades of brutal honesty?
2) The documented history of my motivations for the ascent, coupled with what my friends and family can attest, clearly reveal that I went up on the SA believing that it was going to be a hard, worthy route. Over-rated, to be sure. But hard and worthy nevertheless. Look at the first post of this thread, for example. I was shocked and dismayed at what I was finding on the route! So, it's documented, and witnesses can certainly attest, that I did NOT go up on the SA TO discredit the route. The route discredited itself. I didn't need to "help" it discredit itself.
Finally, you claim that I could say anything I wanted because I was alone.
Two responses:
1) If I would have done the SA with, say, Mark Smith, you would then just claim that we are both liars. If I would have brought up two people, you would then just claim flat-out conspiracy! The bottom line is that this all comes down to the demonstrated integrity of the SA participants. Numbers don't matter. Integrity matters. And I have demonstrated integrity.
2) You claim that Pelut was in Moab during much of my ascent. Wow... just wow. So, let's get this straight. Pelut is IN Moab. He's reading my blog and sees what I'm reporting as I go. He (supposedly) is trying to meet up with me. But he doesn't hike up to the route ONE TIME... just ONCE during my whole ascent to check things out?!?!? If I was "alone" during the ascent, it's only because Pelut couldn't be bothered to come up there to document for himself how I was (supposedly) destroying his route. If our roles would have been reversed, you can bet your bottom dollar that I would be camping out at the base of the route with my various cameras, monitoring EVERYTHING the SA was doing on the route! But Pelut just can't be bothered. Far easier for him to let his proxy (you) float hopeless theories.
Ridiculous!
This whole exchange really does make the case about why a FULL SA had to be done. Pelut-defenders will grasp at the tiniest of straws to "defend" this "ascent." Fortunately I DO have the credibility on every level to have reported on the TRUTH of what that FA was. And TRUTH is what I have reported.
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pelut espania
Big Wall climber
Espania
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Oct 18, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
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Note: my English is no so good but I try :)
Americans big wall on the mud is very hard and I try my beast to make good root for all not just Americans. But now American lieing peros talk the excriment about my skil and soul and SA lies are to muck to endure so I will wish you a male penis en your madres ojo bastardo from my steely penis from Espania! Viva Pelut!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 18, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
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RH: There's something fundamental that you clearly fail to understand.
As soon as you pull out the drill at an anchor, it is IMPOSSIBLE to be "heroic" at that point. You keep saying that Pelut did these "heroic" things at anchors, and you submit pictures showing a rat's nest of cordage and slings. You contrast that with my simple bolt anchors, claiming that my anchors are "weak."
EVERY one of Pelut's anchors had drilled bashies except for the one anchor I never went to (the one at his Hilton ledge, because I bivied 20 feet to the left of that spot). I can't speak to that one anchor, because I didn't visit it. But I can speak to EVERY other one. And many of his anchors consisted of just 2 or 3 bashies drilled into blank rock.
See if you can wrap your (obviously) pea-brain around what I'm going to try to explain to you here.
Once you pull out the drill at an anchor, you can MAKE that anchor anything you want it to be. You are NO LONGER conforming to what the rock presents you. You are DOING TO the rock what you please.
At that point, the ONLY question concerns what you are going to put into the holes you drill. YOU get to decide how dangerous the anchor will be. The ROCK is not deciding it for you. YOU are deciding with the drill.
There is a substantive difference between conforming yourself to the rock and drilling! It IS heroic to takes risks to conform yourself to the ROCK. But there CAN BE no "heroism" in ANY drilled anchor. It's impossible in principle. Here's why....
Pelut drilled 2 and 3 bashie anchors. Why was that "heroic," while 2 or 3 bolts in that same spot is not "heroic?"
Well, on your line of thinking, the bashies are "heroic" because (I guess) they are not as secure as bolts.
Okay, well, since Pelut, with the drill, was solely deciding just HOW "heroic" an anchor was going to be (remember that he's NOT conforming to what the rock presents), then WHY didn't he drill just ONE bashie and call that good?
Why didn't he sling that one big hummock (as you show in one picture) and call that good all by itself? Why did he drill bashies at that anchor too?
Why didn't he drill TINY bashies instead of BIG ones?
Why didn't he drill one, single, tiny copperhead and call that good?
Why didn't he drill one, single bathook and call that good?
Why didn't he just chisel out a single, small finger pocket and have Esther hang herself from that while belaying? THAT would have been FAR more amazing than what he did!
THOSE scenarios would have been MUCH more "heroic" than what Pelut did!!!
But he didn't do any of those things. He DRILLED, but he made his anchors basically secure BY drilling.
But as soon as you are DRILLING to make your anchors secure, then why not make them truly SECURE? If you are after drilled-security, then GET IT! And if you are not after security, then keep going until you can have totally natural anchors, conforming yourself to WHATEVER the rock gives you. And if the rock doesn't give you enough, so that you HAVE to drill at anchors, then DRILL IT RIGHT and have a secure anchor!
Once you are drilling at an anchor, make it GOOD, because there is ZERO reason to make it bad! When you are conforming to the features of the rock, you can be heroic. When you are not employing features in ANY sense, then you CANNOT be heroic.
If Pelut was after "heroic" anchors, he should not have used the drill AT ALL at ANY of his anchors. It is a totally ARTIFICIAL distinction to claim that Pelut's anchors were somehow heroic, yet mine were weak. BOTH sets of anchors are just drilled anchors.
My anchors are HONEST. They are good, bolted anchors in blank rock. Pelut's anchors are DISHONEST. They are "artificial difficulty," claimed to be "hard," but are really quite secure. And his anchors just draw an ARBITRARY line of "difficulty," when, in FACT, he could have made them much, much more "heroic" than he did. Conversely, he could have made them much, much better than he did. Artificial difficulty is not "heroic" in principle, because you are NOT conforming to what the rock presents. When you abandon features and drill in blankness, HEROISM is right out the window!
He gets NO respect for his drilled anchors. And my drilled anchors are completely comparable to his, while being HONEST.
(Oh, btw, I didn't drill out any new trenches, as you are NOW claiming. If there's a trench, Pelut drilled it. And that includes the MANY in that first seam, some 1 foot apart from each other. Guess he was a bit haired out at the start of the first pitch, because he SEWED it up with trenched heads!)
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splitclimber
climber
Sonoma County
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Oct 18, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
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uh oh. the trolling just took a step up in the aiders. :)
Richard - I think you have made your point well. the troll will never end if you keep feeding it.
+1 - for removing all traces and let the tower reclaim itself
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Oct 18, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
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This is such a riveting thread.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 18, 2012 - 04:31pm PT
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Finally, from Pelut:
SA lies are to muck to endure....
No, bud, SA TRUTH is too much for you to endure. And your own video clips show your incompetency. You can float whatever "explanation" you want, but calling me a liar is not among your viable options!
You drilled that route bottom to top. You drilled a LOT, drilling much more than was even necessary HAD you been willing to stand up in your aiders!
You drilled at anchors, even the "hook anchor," and you drilled virtually every placement you stood on! And THEN, you claimed the world's greatest difficulty.
The hubris you demonstrate, even in your video clips, is ASTOUNDING, particularly given that your video clips demonstrate incompetency rather than heroism!
You based your RIDICULOUS rating on a late ascent of Intifada AFTER that route had been down-rated for almost 20 YEARS, and after the tactics Beyer employed were WIDELY and publicly discredited! And you thought of Intifada as being some "standard" of hard, American aid climbing, when Intifada was actually no standard of ANYTHING at all. And, even yet, Intifada DOES follow a natural line, which your "route" does NOT do! It uses FEATURES of the rock, which your "route" does not do.
It must have been really disappointing for you to keep finding those seams to be totally bottomed and useless. Well, I guess not, actually, because you were just in DRILLING MODE and so could just trench the whole way up them!
And your "E.T." feature that you found so fearsome... why so fearsome, Pelut? It was totally solid, and you just drilled bashies across three feet under it anyway, not having the huevos to go anywhere NEAR it!
If you are so bad-ass, here are some questions for you....
WHY haven't you done a SINGLE El Cap route?
WHY haven't you done even a moderate El Cap route. Your proxy likes to chide about the (supposed) down-rating of Wings of Steel. So, at A3+, that's only a moderate El Cap route! Almost EASY! So, before you call me a liar (safely from across the sea), go climb WoS and see what a merely "moderate" American route is. That will teach you a fundamental point about how ridiculous it is for you to even TRY to float that I'm lying about your POS "route."
Look, bub, even if I were a liar, I didn't NEED to bring your POS down to my level. Even a MODERATE American aid climb is FAR beyond the level of your POS. So, I didn't NEED to lie about what I found on your POS, and neither you nor your proxy can offer any believable motivation I might have had for lying about your POS.
Intifada was NO STANDARD, yet you thought it was hard. And if you had even one nut in your sack, you would have done some moderate El Cap routes and then some hard ones. But you don't have the sack to climb even a moderate route like WoS. You are truly and obviously desperate to call ME a liar.
You came over here in absolute ignorance of our standards, our ethics, our history, or our typical tactics (particularly on sandstone, which is a WHOLE NEW DEAL of its own), and you proceeded to DRILL UP a NON-LINE and then spray to the world that you had set a NEW STANDARD of aid climbing difficulty. And it was ALL, completely, in toto based upon utter IGNORANCE.
Then your proxy gets on here and spends months trying to "defend" your travesty in ten different ways, finally getting beaten down to the level of accusing me of lying. And you, realizing that that ridiculous, last-ditch effort is your last vestige of hope, cling to it. But YOU know better. When you look in the mirror, YOU know better. YOU know, and you are starting to realize the extent of it, YOU know that you totally botched this thing and that you were RIDICULOUSLY ignorant on every front.
You came over here to show the world what a bad-ass you are. But your big mistake was in touting a route as your STANDARD that I did the SA of, and your second biggest mistake was in basing your ridiculous rating on that "standard," which could ONLY have the effect of making me curious (and skeptical). THAT led me to do the SA of your pile, and, unfortunately for you, everybody in the climbing community that knows me KNOWS that I do not lie. So, you could not have had a worse (for you) SA, because I'm about the last climber your last-ditch "lie" theory is going to stick to! So, all you succeeded in doing was to show the world how incompetent you are and the level of hubris you have. That's it.
The whole thing is pathetic top to bottom. And I would have let this go months ago, except that your proxy, and now you, try to float this crap about me lying.
Buddy, if you knew a shred of American climbing history, you would know that I will fight to the end of the Earth for my reputation for honesty and integrity! I am tenacious at a level you cannot even IMAGINE! But, of course, you are, yet again, IGNORANT.
And, if you were reading my blog, and you were IN Moab during my SA, then WHY didn't you come to the route to document HOW I was lying? You COULD have come there during most of the SA to show the world how I was botching your route and then (supposedly) lying about it. YOU had the opportunity to set the record straight at the very time the record was being formed! YOU were there! And you supposedly wanted SO MUCH to meet with me.
Then, WHY didn't you?
What a huge, steaming pile of bovine excrement!
So, why don't you just apologize humbly and thoroughly for your UTTER BOTCH JOB, admit that you have been entirely ignorant about everything (including how to aid climb at a world class level), and go back to school?
If you now moan about how "harsh" that is, tough! YOU are the one claiming I'm a liar, so face the music about what you have done! Pony up to the world about how you really blew it this time.
Honestly, if you would do that, you would find me not your enemy. I have no ax to grind with you, OTHER than that you are now calling me a liar. To me, ethics are between people, not between people and the rock. I don't give a rodent's testicle about what you did on the Titan itself (I'm different from many here in that respect). I CARE about the ethics of what you DID compared to what you CLAIMED, including your spraying about how awesome you are, when you clearly are not. I CARE about what climbing IS and what it MEANS. And I very much care about being called a liar!
So, just come clean, apologize for what you did, and in my mind it's over. Keep calling me a liar, though, and you are in for a real fight. And I mean that, believe me!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 18, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
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Keep calling me a liar, though, and you are in for a real fight. And I mean that, believe me!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 18, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
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Now he's the critic and someone else is in the hot seat... a little too ironic dontchya think?
Poor dingleberry has been pissed at me every since I dissed on his squeeze, Beyer. Pity. It distorts judgement. So much so that he can't distinguish the difference between being unjustly in the hot-seat and being justly in the hot-seat.
And, yup, I don't take kindly to being called a liar. What about you, dingleberry?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 18, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
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Splitclimber is right. I'm done here. Pelut or his proxy want to keep publicly floating the "liar" bit, and I'll pursue other avenues.
Ghost, I'm not QUITE as bad off as either of those two. Getting there, but not quite yet.
I AM pissed now, though.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 18, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
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*Yawn* Just woke up, time to see if I missed anything...
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Oct 18, 2012 - 08:16pm PT
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Pelut-
each time you use the drill it is considered a hole in the "hole count" This includes drilled copperheads or "bashies".
on the titan route, how many holes on each pitch and for each belay?
on the kingfisher route, how many holes on each pitch and for each belay?
lastly, on weird science, did you drill any holes or was the bolt kit left on the ground?
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nah000
Mountain climber
canuckadia
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Oct 19, 2012 - 01:04am PT
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there are really three separate issues here:
1. was the original climb misrepresented? nobody vehemently disagrees with this at this juncture (except pelut). even rivet hanger at points seems on the verge of acknowledging this. why anyone is writing multi page screeds about this when, effectively, no one disagrees, is just, like: wow, man.
2. was the original climb a botch? read the answer to 1.
3. does the original botch justify the second botch? even madbolter acknowledges his route has value only possibly as a rappel route and he'd be fine if someone else chopped it. in this regard rivet hanger for all of his either trolling or defensive rhetoric has a point if one cares more about the results on the rock then one does about the intent on the ground.
three points of explication:
1. what i have to respect about madbolter is he is willing to say things that not many would agree with.
from half a dozen posts ago he says: "I don't give a rodent's testicle about what you did on the Titan itself (I'm different from many here in that respect). I CARE about the ethics of what you DID compared to what you CLAIMED"
this is an interesting idea. while madbolter may not care what happens to the rock as long as it is honestly reported, i can't agree. the rock is a shared resource and what is done to the rock by another climber is something i care about. even if it is unreported and i stumble upon it.
2. for someone who claims that he doesn't care about another climbers acts, only their honesty, madbolter sure makes a lot of judgments about how close together and how heavy handed pelut's placements are.
starting with the fifth sentence of the original post madbolter reports: "This is the most contrived, manufactured, worthless "line" I have ever even heard of, much less seen. The FA team apparently couldn't even reach more than about 18 inches, because that's about as far between placements as I've seen so far. And virtually every placement is heavily drilled/trenched!".
hmm, i must be missing the part where he is not caring about what is done to the rock by another climber. so while he might claim that he's not interested in the role of high priest of "aid style", his words belie a different reality. in case he's open to his own ambitions a piece of unsolicited advice:
if you want to be the high priest of "aid style", and publicly call out another climber with worldwide public ridicule, that's fine. if you've earned your position as high priest you'll probably even be taken seriously. if the only justification for your route is that "i'm a ground up fundamentalist so in order to "discover" whether the first climb was a botch job or not, i had to to ground-up a similar line with tons of new holes", that's also, arguably, maybe, admirable. but in case you really do care about the style aspect of your high priest role, you better be willing to turn around and erase it (or at minimum have a plan to, once people have had a chance to see the evidence). in the age of the interwebz, if you want to hold others to your religion, and stay a high priest, you have to be willing to bear the cross of your own shortcomings.
and if a person isn't able to see the hypocrisy, given the history of dramz we're all aware of thanks to said interwebz, methinks they may have stared into the abyss a trifle too long.
3. so while the rock may not care what a human's actions are, a lot of people do. and to me it's a lot like art. the only people who care what a piece of art is supposed to be or what the "narrative" is, are those who are too attached to their own temporary relevance in a certain area of "expertise". at the end of the day the only thing that really matters is what is on the wall.
imo, what is left on the wall now, when i ignore the narratives, are two botches.
tl;dr: fundamentalism makes the whole world go blind.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 19, 2012 - 04:05am PT
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I give it up, I've said and brought evidences and indications of my opinion (which at last, is just that in spite of direct threats becuase of two contrasted photos)... Now, you'll say that are no evidences and we'll begin a new loop again, with very very short texts.
So, ok, I it GIVE UP, you and specially supercute ponies WIN! I don't know the translation in English, but Catalans say "Time puts things at the right place". We'll see...
Nevertheless, I just hope that Jeremy or Paul will decide to upload some pictures of their last Tower's trip (well, Jensen was not lying, because it's obvious that an experienced hard aid-climber knows that if you can place a BD angle, you'll place a head and fill the rest of the hole with, mud?... my God! For anyone who knows basic things about aid-climbing it is almost an insult!).
Anyway, all you should have in account that a new porposal of really hard aid-climbing route has become for God's action the "Maestri Route of the Towers". Applause and ovation as a show of respect!
So, advice for next possible repetition, take one of this or give a call to Kennedy and Kruk:
Be well!
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 19, 2012 - 04:22am PT
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give it up, I've said and brought evidences and indications of my opinion (which at last, is just that)...
Your opinion have been clear all the time but I don't know what evidence you have brought though.
About the deep hole with bashies you have to ask Pelut. I don't know why he did that but my guess are that he did it to achieve manufactured difficulty. Especially manufactured difficulty that looks more difficult than it is. A deeper hole with a bashie is probably safer than a shallower hole with a bashie and it might look better and more impressive to same people compared to a bolt, rivet or drilled angle.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 19, 2012 - 04:52am PT
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I break my promise but i cannot avoid it...
A deeper hole with a bashie is probably safer than a shallower hole with a bashie but it might look better and more impressive to same people compared to a bolt, rivet or drilled angle.
It also says much...
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 19, 2012 - 05:03am PT
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It also says much...
Yes, it says much about Pelut's climbing style. The hook belay wouldn't be very hard core if the first placement after the belay was a bolt or drilled angle so he obviously placed something else. He seems to have decided that a deeply drilled hole with a bashie would make the hook belay look hardcore without being to dangerous.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 19, 2012 - 05:29am PT
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Rivet Hanger said-
I give it up,
I it GIVE UP, you and specially supercute ponies WIN! GOSPODI! This may change the very course of history, from a dark and ruined world shall arise Supertopo - reborn as SUPERTOPIA! A nation free from prejudice, wooden pegs, and butthurt, and dedicated to freedom, ponies, and rock climbing ethics policing! Oh happy day! A new and fragrant dawn for humanity! A SHINING and GLORIOUS-
I break my promise but i cannot avoid it...
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 19, 2012 - 10:04am PT
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This thread is gold.
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pelut espania
Big Wall climber
Espania
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Oct 19, 2012 - 03:54pm PT
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The root is A6- and now destroyed for all Americans by the SA who shouyld really watch the Olefsky video on how to do the aid. We did a nice line and it will stand as a monumente to all Espania! These new guys are telling all Americans things that boldness is not alive in our soles and they are wrong!
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Ricardo-Cristobal Marquez
climber
Barcelona
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Oct 19, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
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I am more Espanian than you are so you can mack on my concha. Puta.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 19, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Oct 19, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Oct 19, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
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so Pelut=
can you answer HOW MANY HOLES DID YOU DRILL?
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pelut espania
Big Wall climber
Espania
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Oct 19, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
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can you answer HOW MANY HOLES DID YOU DRILL?
Woold that be including your madre mi amigo?
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Oct 19, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
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I would like to know, from the actual first ascent party members, how many times did the drill come out to play. A Valid question.
-------------
Then, the team notes in the press release of doing the RAD NEW ROUTE ON KINGFISHER WAHOOOO
(and we repeated weird science)
no comments? like wow that first pitch was bad ass and I could have died! I went climbing with Jeremy shortly after that lead and he was raging over how bold it was.
-------------
Get Grossman in this discussion- some jackoffs attempted to repeat Jolly Roger and said nothing of the lower hooking pitches (then bailed) for Grossman to later find out the second ascent had improved hook placements because they believed the flake broke off.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 19, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
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Ha ha, who's the Pelut imposter? Brilliant
Aye. It's a bit obvious, but funny. =)
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 20, 2012 - 11:28am PT
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It's a bit obvious
This is Supertopo.
The majority of the people reading this thread are just now putting the pieces together.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 20, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
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This is Supertopo.
The majority of the people reading this thread are just now putting the pieces together.
Sometimes their special talent for arguing gets in the way of critical thinking...
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Oct 20, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
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Richard put up a stupid route next to an even stupider route to prove that it was stupid. Time to collect some hangers.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 20, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
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Richard put up a stupid route next to an even stupider to prove that it was stupid.
I think that's the long and short of it. Mission accomplished, sounds like the next step is chopping both.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Oct 20, 2012 - 02:06pm PT
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gdavis-
you are not too bright are you?
the larry, you are 100% correct.
pelut esp. is no jeff batten, nor is his "defender" RH.
how-many-holes?
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 20, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
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Yeah, where is the actual Pelut? I'd like to hear from him.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Oct 20, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
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What's up with the Beyer bashing? That guy has put up more routes then everyone on this thread combined.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 21, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
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What's up with the Beyer bashing? That guy has put up more routes then everyone on this thread combined.
You're right.
How many routes do you need to be abstained from guilt? Could I possibly buy one of these Indulgences from the local Bishop?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Oct 21, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
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His style has improved over the years. It's sad that the hardman Internet climbers hold onto grudges for a quarter century or more. Any of you bashers ever climb with the guy? I've done several new routes with him and don't think you could question the style we climbed in. Always ground up, minimal drilling, no power tools, etc. The other thing is he's still putting in new lines while the vast majority of the critics have retired to talking sh#t on the Internet. If you guy have a pair go repeat these lines and see for yourselves.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 21, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
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Talking sh|t is about all most of these guys are good for anymore. But I'll take a stab. I'm still feeling let down and dirtied from Weak Sauce. Tell me about your most highly-recommended Beyer route within 8 hours of Denver (four corners area, for example). Hopefully his style HAS improved. I'm mighty curious.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Oct 21, 2012 - 06:29pm PT
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Hahaha now John Kelley is talking sh#t about sh#t talkers. And with all the sh#t talking you do (prezwoods) isn't that a little hypocritical?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Oct 21, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
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Check out the Kelley/Beyer on Mt. Moran in the Tetons. If it's too hard go for the South Buttress Drifter also on Moran. Both are unrepeated.
Prezwoods, aka Kelsey Gay, is a known retro bolter. He's done a lot of harm to the local climbing scene here. So many new bolts that the Chugach State Park proposed a fixed anchor ban last year. He claims the two are unconnected but that's bs.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 21, 2012 - 07:02pm PT
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"Never Mentioned?" What does that even mean? Please tell me what grandiose responsibility I had that I didn't rise to. I believe we've been all around this bush before in other contexts. Any particular reason you feel it needs further discussion in yet another context?
I believe you did Hole World shortly before I did WoC, and I didn't know about it. What month/year?
What drilling are you talking about, specifically?
Always been totally straightforward, with nothing to hide, as you know.
Topos, Kelley?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 21, 2012 - 07:15pm PT
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Kelley, I'm not a mountaineer, and both routes you just mentioned seem to not be strictly big walls. What was at issue was Beyer's big wall/aid climbing tactics. Comparing mountaineering style is apples/oranges. What strictly big wall/aid climbs could you refer to?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Oct 21, 2012 - 07:15pm PT
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Topos are in the 2001 AAJ
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Oct 21, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
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Check out Whirl of Hate (5.10 A4) also on Moran
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Oct 21, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
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I wouldn't call any of the three " mountaineering" routes. There're just rock climbs.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 21, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
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From Wikipedia....
No trails to Mount Moran have been maintained for over twenty years, and any approach overland requires a great deal of bushwhacking through vegetation, deadfalls and bogs along the perimeter of Leigh Lake. Instead, most climbers choose to canoe from String Lake, across Leigh Lake and then pick their way to their respective route; but even this may require some overland route finding. As a result, most climbs on Mount Moran tend to take several days even when the technical portion of the climb is comparatively brief.
Accurate?
Sounds like the bushwhack-to-climb-ratio is the "too hard" part of these routes. Again, anything new from Beyer in the four-corners area?
Edit: Also, it looks like the routes you mention all range from 1998 to 2001. Anything recent?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Oct 21, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
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The approach to the South Buttress is easy. I mean very easy. Paddle a canoe across Leigh Lake and follow the unmaintained but good trail up the valley. Less then an hour of walking. Almost no bush wacking. The Tetons are awesome. They don't suffer from the bullshit that the valley does.
I'll ask him what he thinks are his best more recent aid routes in the four corners area are. I think most of his newer lines are free routes though.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 21, 2012 - 08:00pm PT
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Thanks for the info! I'll look into this more. The Tetons are further than I'd like, and with my job it's hard to get away just for recon. But I'm intrigued! Thanks again.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Oct 22, 2012 - 12:11am PT
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Ask Beyer about Martyr's Brigade, & the random & wanton chopping, then get back to me. F*#k that guy.
Ego-centric as#@&%e.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 22, 2012 - 01:17am PT
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from half a dozen posts ago he says: "I don't give a rodent's testicle about what you did on the Titan itself.... this is an interesting idea. while madbolter may not care what happens to the rock as long as it is honestly reported, i can't agree. the rock is a shared resource and what is done to the rock by another climber is something i care about. even if it is unreported and i stumble upon it.
Too much to say to fit in even one of MY posts, and that's saying something! The whole idea of a "shared resource" and what that implies is a vast topic.
But, understandably, my nuances of meaning could not be captured in my "rodent's testicle" line. In a nutshell, people have far too much to say about style (what is done "to" the rock) and far too little to say about climber-to-climber relations. If you look at most "debate" threads on the Taco, you see the same thing again and again: treating PEOPLE with utter disrespect, while fuming about respecting the ROCK.
With RARE exception (Weak Sauce) being one of them, climbers care about CLIMBING, and that means (at minimum) trying to conform oneself to what the rock presents. So, to me, what the FA team did on Weak Sauce matters FAR more in the sense of the UTTER disconnect between what Pelut claimed and anything resembling "climbing!" The "what" of what Pelut did matters most to me in terms of what it means for integrity and climbing.
We can dicker 'till the cows come home about relatively fine points of style, and we can even claim that these discussions are "ethical" discussions. But those discussions shrink in significance alongside a "route" that was not even CLIMBING.
That is the sense in which I mean that I don't give a rodent's testicle about "what" was done "to" the rock. To me, it's not "nothing!" But it is almost nothing compared to what was done to integrity and to what climbing means. If THIS is "climbing," then what almost all of us have been striving to do better and better at, spanning decades, is a complete hoax.
for someone who claims that he doesn't care about another climbers acts, only their honesty, madbolter sure makes a lot of judgments about how close together and how heavy handed pelut's placements are.
See above. These things are significant primarily insofar as they speak to CLIMBING.
hmm, i must be missing the part where he is not caring about what is done to the rock by another climber. so while he might claim that he's not interested in the role of high priest of "aid style", his words belie a different reality.
We are ALL trying to be "high priests" of "style." Read what's posted on the Taco that counts for "ethics." What a joke!
in case he's open to his own ambitions a piece of unsolicited advice: if you want to be the high priest of "aid style", and publicly call out another climber with worldwide public ridicule, that's fine.
Wow, did you ever miss the point. Have we been on the same thread? I have as much right as anybody here to "call out" another climber after what I observed. And what I've done here is not "ridicule." Maybe that's what some here have done. But I've tried to keep things to a factual level. In response, I've been chided, derided myself, and even called a liar as attempted "defense" of this non-climb. Talk about shooting the messenger.
if you've earned your position as high priest you'll probably even be taken seriously.
Is this something like earning the "right" to do a new route on El Cap? BS! Facts are facts. I reported facts. I don't lie about facts. They are what they are. If you see ANY "gray areas" about this non-route's hype, tactics, and misinformation from the FA team, please step up and make them clear. Otherwise, I think that ANY reasonable person is going to decry this non-climb without any help from ANY "high priest." Where you got the idea that I was going for "high priest" is totally beyond me.
if the only justification for your route is that "i'm a ground up fundamentalist so in order to "discover" whether the first climb was a botch job or not, i had to to ground-up a similar line with tons of new holes", that's also, arguably, maybe, admirable. but in case you really do care about the style aspect of your high priest role, you better be willing to turn around and erase it (or at minimum have a plan to, once people have had a chance to see the evidence).
Too much to say here than can reasonable fit!
Nutshell: If you look at the FA team squirming as it is, just imagine it after a "rap inspection." Give me a break!
And why is it "on me" to erase it or have a plan to? When did that become my special responsibility?
You see, the whole problem with climbing "style" is that the climbing community has NEVER gotten clear about how to "self-police" or if it even should. And if it should, then WHO gets to be "chief of police," and who gets selected to employ the "force?" Ever since Robbins tried it, it's been clear that even the "holy" aren't holy enough to be trusted! And the wide disparity in views about "style" should be sufficient to keep us basically humble when it comes to employing force!
There are MANY here that even decry the use of ANY sort of driven gear (heads, pitons, etc.) in aid climbing. So, pick the "purest" climb you want at the Fishers or on El Cap for that matter, and I guarantee you that there are MANY that believe it was done in VERY poor style.
Wow... so FAR from thinking of myself as "high priest," I have the opposite perspective. I know a non-climb when I see one, because what I've just seen is at the absolute end of the spectrum. The only next step is literally to lean a giant wooden ladder against the Titan and call it a "climb!" Do ANY of us need to be a "high priest" to "call that out?"
The problem is that of "force!" I don't remember who uttered this famous quote, but it is timelessly true: "We have every right to speak, but no whatsoever to compel."
So, I don't care if the route is chopped now or not. We all make our individual decisions about what we think is right. Those of us that DO, instead of just TALK, portray our views on the rock. If somebody is SO sure that their view is right that they are prepared to chop a route, this would probably be the most likely candidate in history to gain a consensus. More power to you. But, far from thinking of myself as some sort of "high priest," I wouldn't make that decision. I was just trying to get up in the best possible style, given the pathetic "line" the FA team chose, and see and accurately report what was really done there.
in the age of the interwebz, if you want to hold others to your religion, and stay a high priest, you have to be willing to bear the cross of your own shortcomings.
As do we all, since we ALL have 'em!
and if a person isn't able to see the hypocrisy, given the history of dramz we're all aware of thanks to said interwebz, methinks they may have stared into the abyss a trifle too long.
You had me until this point. You had me thinking that your was about the most REASONED argument I'd seen on the Taco for a long time. But then you punted and jumped on the "history of drama" bandwagon. And that's just pathetic. Let's stay focused on FACTS, shall we? Leave the spun "interpretations" out of it.
so while the rock may not care what a human's actions are, a lot of people do. and to me it's a lot like art. the only people who care what a piece of art is supposed to be or what the "narrative" is, are those who are too attached to their own temporary relevance in a certain area of "expertise". at the end of the day the only thing that really matters is what is on the wall.
Well, that just spun out of control after you, well, lost control of it. What are you saying here?
If it's a lot like art, should we care or not? You seem to say that the only people that do care are those that have gotten caught up in a form of "evaluation" that isn't relevant or is missing the point or some such thing. But if "evaluation" about such things as "expertise" and "style" are not relevant, then there's nothing to care about. But, you DO care about "what is on the wall," whatever that means. HOW do you care about "what is on the wall" without discussion of "narrative" or some such thing? "What is on the wall" is not just "there!" There's a STORY behind it... a HUMAN story, and that's the only reason it matters.
Are we all supposed to be "environmentalists" in the strictest sense? Is that what you mean? Careful with a step onto that slope!
If so, then ALL aid climbing with driven gear must STOP! But that lets a LOT of the self-proclaimed high priests on the Taco off the bus! (Not too hard to name them. That's for sure!) And that means that MOST (by FAR) of the "respectable" big wall climbs (past and present) are really indefensible farces!
Do you think that you "get" what is on the wall without ANY discussion of "narrative?" WHAT about "what is on the wall" really matters? WHY does it?
What the FA team did "on" (better would have been to say "to") the Titan is insignificant compared to their perspective of CLIMBING, which is what I care about. And that is always worth talking about, as we can (hopefully) all learn from each other perspectives in (basically) reasonable and honest discourse.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 22, 2012 - 01:59am PT
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just wondering why you drew a topo showing you're route going to the top without joining another route for the last five pitches. I'd think an Honest person would mention that in their topo.
You drilled a belay anchor in the middle of an A1 pitch of mine, you're 14th belay.
That's "your," since you are obviously in nit-picky mode now.
Wow, so ignorance of your recently-done route becomes an honesty issue on my part? Again, you didn't do it long before I did WoC, and I was unaware of it. My original topo reflects my unawareness, and my original topo DID note that the top two pitches were a ladder I didn't drill (you can BET I wasn't taking "credit" for THAT in the "climate" of that time!).
Unlike you, I was never a bowed-down-to-be-worshiped demi-god of the Valley. Decades of willful and intentional slander pretty much kept that from happening! (Thank God! LOL!) So you'll excuse me if I was not privy to everything taking place there in anything close to real time.
Hmm... fill me in a bit here, would you? If Mark and/or I had done multiple pitches of full-on drilling and named our route "Hole World," would WE have gotten kudos for it as you did? Just curious. Could YOU do any wrong in that era? Oh, and there was Shipley's "machine headwall." Yeah, guess those were "routes worth drilling for."
But, so as to not be accused of "dodging" (here's the "drama" again, and, note, the multi-decade critics are the ones that just can't leave the bone alone), I'll answer your specific question. My 14th anchor was at the end of a long pitch, so I ended the pitch where it made the most sense to me under the Pinnacle of Hammerdom. It wasn't A1 at that point of the pitch, as I remember, but, honestly, it's been too many years now for me to remember that anchor in ANY detail. I do remember that I was running the rope out during the whole route, as much as possible.
If those two bolts (that have no effect on the rating) get your panties in a bunch after all these years (nay, decades), I'd suggest getting over it. I didn't do you nor the rock any harm.
I was never your enemy. Why have you been mine over the decades? Why can't you let it go?
But, if you want to nit-pick, tell us your best, your PUREST, your most perfect route... the one that's still in pristine condition, so I can go do it and nit-pick comparably.
The big mistake some, like you, are making on this particular thread is floating the misguided claim that ONLY the "perfect" can "judge." So, the claim is: How dare Jensen set himself up as "judge," when he has been far from "perfect" himself?
What a joke. I've never claimed "perfection!" But any CLIMBER should be able to see that THIS was a non-climb, and that's what I reported. There's NO "nit-picking" to report that this thing was far, far beyond the pale... FAR beyond anything any of us have seen before.
What's always galled me are the "high priests" of "holiness" that claim the right to nit-pick every other route not done by them or their cronies, when THEY are not holy themselves.
If you can find ANY correlation between decades of THAT and what this thread has been about, then, there's nothing more to talk about.
*
Cross-post: Now Beyer is "bad-ass?" Wow... have I been warped into some alternate universe? Intifada was not even hard (and we repeated it very shortly after the FA, using exactly comparable gear), and he didn't honestly report what went on there. AND he trenched when it wasn't even remotely necessary to trench... even if you are (now) calling trenching all good BITD. WAS that all good BITD? Can we get clear even about that?
So, let's see.... we now have the current desert-rock "masters" calling Beyer a "bad-ass," and Crusher says that Pelut's bashing and bashing on the rock (removing kilograms) to OVER-drive a pecker that was bomber 40 hits ago... it's all good. No wonder Pelut is confused! I sure am! Guess I'm just nit-picking.
See my point from my previous post? We're ALL awash in inconsistency... such is the nature of aid climbing. Let's quit ripping at each other!
But Weak Sauce was not even a CLIMB, by any measure, and there's no inconsistency in saying that. My whole "report" on this thread. If THIS thing can't come under fire from ANYBODY in the climbing community (high priest status or not), then ALL talk of "acceptable" style is groundless.
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Andrew Barnes
Ice climber
Albany, NY
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Oct 22, 2012 - 02:54am PT
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Out of curiosity, I watched the video of the pecker being bashed in and also counted the number of hammer hits. I counted approximately 111 hammer blows on the pecker - there were probably more, since I likely mised a few. I'm thinking, ONE HUNDRED AND ELEVEN blows of the hammer is probably just like sinking a bolt. Really sad.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Oct 22, 2012 - 05:47am PT
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It's funny how all of you aid climbers talk sh#t about each other. My route is harder then yours, my style is better then yours, it's endless. Why are some praised for taking out useless bolts and others are criticized for doing the same thing? Martyr's Birgade removed part of the captains compressor route. Who cares? Why do you guys all hate each other? Shitting on peoples ropes, ratting out people for tossing bag, what a joke.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 22, 2012 - 05:57am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 22, 2012 - 06:48am PT
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It's funny how all of you aid climbers talk sh#t about each other. My route is harder then yours, my style is better then yours, it's endless. Why are some praised for taking out useless bolts and others are criticized for doing the same thing? Martyr's Birgade removed part of the captains compressor route. Who cares? Why do you guys all hate each other?
It bears repeating.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Oct 22, 2012 - 10:09am PT
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madbolter1 uses Wikipedia to get approach beta in the Tetons?
That is beyond the pale.
or as he might put it: THAT is beyond the pale.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Oct 22, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
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Richard, you are questioning and accusing others of poor form and even at times yourself. I am curious if you and Mark really drilled bathooks instead of rivets or bolts on Ring of Fire?
How do you feel about people filling those holes?
Not trying to call you out on anything. Just curious as I hate bathooks and find them lame. I've just always prefered to fill the hole, with at least something.
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Oct 22, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
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I haven't been following this thread recently, so perhaps I shouldn't be commenting, but from what I've glanced over I'm amazed that this has gone to 600 posts. Seems to me that the issue, bringmedeath, well one of the big issues, is that the route wasn't repeatable. Not a case of "I don't like your rivet; will chop it and put in a bolt" or "I don't like your trenched head; will replace it with a rivet, how do you feel about that?" Rather, it's a case of the style in which the route was put up wouldn't support a repeat ascent. Who's heard of filling holes with wood dowels and then sawing them off? So here's my summary. Climb was done without regard to local ethics. Climb was unrepeatable. Jensen attempted SA. Jensen had to make choices about how to do the SA, or if an SA should even be done. Whatever choices he made, some on this site would find in it an opportunity to flame Richard and every noteworthy climb he has ever done. However, it is clear that the choices Richard made were reasonable choices that any reasonable climber might make. If almost anyone else had done the SA and made a report thereof, this thread would have ended long ago. LOD isn't A6+. LOD was done in very poor style. LOD is currently repeatable, although in a different form than existed for the FA. LOD isn't worth doing as a third ascent. Jensen, in his advanced age, was willing to attempt a route rated at the top end of the spectrum and finished it even when the climbing was ugly. Anything beyond that probably isn't worth the time to write.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
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I hate bat hooks and find them lame.
I've just always preferred to fill the hole, with at least something
LOL
A bat hook fills the hole although temporarily. :-)
Richard .... nice interesting report/analysis of your desert climb .....
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 22, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
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Thanks, Werner. Appreciated.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 22, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
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As I've tried to express, there is no "purity" to be had in aid climbing. No matter where you happen to draw the line, including what you put into holes (including bat hooks), a large number of people will think it's "bad style."
To me the issue comes down to two primary points:
1) Drilling should be sustainable/repeatable! For example, bat hooks on El Cap rock should be good for decades (properly drilled), while they are simply not sustainable at the Fishers. Drilling that is not sustainable requires that subsequent ascent parties MUST climb with the drill, and that necessarily means proliferation of holes.
2) Routes should depend primarily upon natural features. THIS is what makes a route a CLIMB, as THIS is what "conforming to what the rock presents" is all about. The lines we draw about what counts have lots and lots of fuzziness! That's not a bad thing, as long as we're keep our debates focused upon what matters, which is to CLIMB (with the "conform" aspect foremost in mind).
With all the (good and useful) debate about style, we're debating WITHIN the rubric of CLIMBING. What distinguishes this "route" and the tactics employed on it, is that it's off the chart. It's off the spectrum of debate about CLIMBING, because there was virtually no attempt made on the part of the FA team to conform themselves to what the rock presented.
This was no "drilled headwall" or "overdrilled compared to natural placements" effort. On this "route," virtually every placement required the drill, and "features" were not even a significant consideration. When the troll Pelut (God knows?) says, "We put up a nice line," I have no, nada, zip, zero idea what that CAN mean. My SA "put up a much nicer line" with far fewer holes, and I still would not "vouch" for it! So the FA was indeed beyond the pale, and we've never seen anything like it... much less one so hyped as the new standard of awesomeness.
So, yes, I'm happy to debate style, what should go in holes, etc. 'till the cows come home. But none of that is relevant to this "route," because all such debate is about CLIMBING, and this "route" was none of that.
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BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
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Oct 24, 2012 - 12:37am PT
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Bringmedeath (jake) what have you climbed in the last 10 yrs? Last route with Pirate Jamie was your last climb?? Yet you act like some authority....
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pelut espania
Big Wall climber
Espania
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Oct 24, 2012 - 05:40pm PT
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You are all so wrong with the lies and Bueyer slanders but keep on talking Americans we know it is A6 and you can not be as bold to do it as it was done.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 24, 2012 - 10:54pm PT
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You are all so wrong with the lies and Bueyer slanders but keep on talking Americans we know it is A6 and you can not be as bold to do it as it was done.
I do wish the _real_ Pelut would speak a few words about his thoughts on all of this...
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:32am PT
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Why bother??? Nothing to say!!! Go climb the Empire State Building it will be a7!!!!
I'm over being nice. They aren't.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:21am PT
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Well Mike mostly it's just that I don't know as RH or this Pelut Espania troll speak for the ACTUAL Pelut.
It would be interesting to know if - on review of all of this - Pelut would have elected to do things differently than he did.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:29am PT
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I certainly hope so.... What was pelut's real taco name?? Gonna have to scroll back and find out. RH may think he is defending pelut but as Richard says he certainly ain't doin him any favors....
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:54am PT
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Aye.
Maybe I'm giving Pelut the benefit of the doubt more than is warranted, though I would like to think he is reasonable enough to hold an honest and humble discourse on the matter at this point.
Ech, time will tell.
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chris v
climber
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Oct 26, 2012 - 01:23am PT
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chris v
climber
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Oct 26, 2012 - 01:32am PT
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posted this on the wrong page earlier. here it is again:
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Oct 28, 2012 - 10:52am PT
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Peluts real taco name is Un Des Tants... I still can't get over this classic...
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Oct 28, 2012 - 11:34am PT
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you would think so....
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Similarly bumped, to annoy the OT political posters.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Trying to surpass Da-Dweeb meritorius personal contributions to this thread, I just want to point out that in Desnivel nº316 (paper edition november 2012) you'll find a complete report of new Pelut's route in King Fisher and the SA of Weird Science.
If you can get it in the States, Richy, you'll find a complete photo gallery in addition to all those on internet of the route for your possible SA new attempts (in which you'll need Peckers instead of rivets, bolts, and shinning anchor chains under the desert sun).
And for Jeremy and Paul, I hope you'll post a TR if you decide to do a SA.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Heeeyyyy, RH,
I'm glad you FINALLY agree that on Weak Sauce I needed rivets! Finally we're on the same page about THAT drilled-up PILE of an FA!
So, you're saying that Pelut's FA on Kingfisher is different?
I'd be shocked if that were true.
Peckers, huh? You mean like every 18-inches, with bashing the HELL out of the surrounding rock in order to BURY them (every 18-inches) until they were no longer even visible? Is THAT what you mean by "needing peckers?"
Honestly, after seeing what Pelut calls "climbing," I wouldn't waste the gas money to even go SEE it, much less climb it.
Pelut has NOTHING to contribute to the climbing community except entertainment value... a sort of sick, fascinated-horror "entertainment."
And even THAT has worn pretty thin.
Nope, not interested in any more.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Hey Richy!
First of all, thank you for being synthetic, I know it's really hard for you!
Considering that you define yourself as a philosopher, teacher, author, consultant and climber (in this order? DaVinci wasn't the half!) I thought you were a little bit more clever and you knew yet the meaning of a word called sarcasm... So, don't get me wrong!
As I told you a lot of times, supertopo is read worldwide, so some objective facts and my personal opinions are there for everybody.
And yeah, Peckers! I appreciate a lot your resignation from a SA (Black Diamond has not contacted you to pay your spendings, yet? What's wrong with them? They must be impressed for your Maesttri Route in the Towers!), but considering your tendency to make holes deeper, I'm sure that with your fancy hammer you'd be able to by-pass all the route with just a bunch of angles (and some more bolts if the situation gets too much scary for an old fart as you). And about placing gear every 18 inches, you did the same on Intifada according to the pictures on your web page, so don't try to make others belive that you go to last step of the aiders in these situations. Perhaps time and living from old past glories don't let you remember that, although again, it is an objective fact that everybody can check out whenever.
And keep giving your opinion about Pelut, since my point of view you do nothing more than increase the sensation of prejudice against non-american aid climbers.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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prejudice against non-american aid climbers.
See, this is where people just laugh you out of the room. There are many non-american aid climbers who were/are respected or revered in the US climbing scene. Bongard, Falco, Humar, etc.
It's not where you come from, it's what you leave behind. And what your buddy Pelut the galoot left behind was a steaming pile of runny feces.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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So, if it's just a question of what you leave behind, Jensen left tons of steel and I do not see people just laughing out of the room... No prejudice?
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Ya because Richard puts bolts in his holes rather that ruining the rock with that bashie crap. When are you going to understand?? 1 hole = 1 bolt no matter what you shove in there.
Oh wait.... You're not. Carry on looking like an idiot.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Well, it wasn't QUITE a ton. At least, certainly not a METRIC ton. I'm sure of that.
And it was 1/3 of what Pelut did on the FA. LOL
Oh, wait, I'm considering HOLES when I say 1/3. But to YOU, "holes" are empty, so they don't WEIGH anything. But the bolts/rivets I left behind DO weigh something. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
I see your point now!
WOW, for the FIRST time I get what you are saying!!! I'm slow sometimes.
The issue in whether a climb was decent or not is the total WEIGHT of what was left behind in the rock. How DENSE can I be? I should have SEEN what you were trying to say all along! SO sorry!!!
I take back EVERYTHING I said about Pelut before. Actually, Weak Sauce was BRILLIANT! It WEIGHED almost nothing!!!
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Richard does not puts bolts if he must drill the rock!
Have a look to Ammon report of SA of WOS and you'll find out that he made more than 145 bathooks (as himself claimed in the original topo, all must be said). I do not speak native American English but I guess a bathook is little hole to place the hook! Look the pictures on Ammon and Kait blog!
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raymond phule
climber
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And by the way, where do you see heads in Kingfisher Pelut's photos?
He might have learned to not include his "bad placements" in his photos?
Why don't you try a SA and then talk?
So you could listen to what he says in the same constructive way as you listen to Richard now?
What other people say and what their pics show don't seem to matter that much to you.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Because everybody can see that Pelut placed a lead head and Richy even placed an angle...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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THE thing you don't seem to GET, RH, is that trying to trash ME doesn't save PELUT! LOL
Even IF what you say about me were true, which it isn't, all that would mean is that I'm a goofball. But that wouldn't change ANYTHING about the FACTS of what Pelut does when he "climbs." (I put quotes around that, because I don't even admit that Pelut CLIMBS.)
So, keep talking, but the facts about PELUT don't change.
:-)
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raymond phule
climber
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Have a look to Ammon report of SA of WOS and you'll find out that he made more than 145 bathooks
I really doubt that you can backup that claim.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Wooden wedges are an strange thing for you? My God, if you ever climb on limestone and conglomerate you'll learn a lot of things!
And I see that perhaps you don't know what a lead head is.
Hahahahahahahaha, Jeremy doesn't know how to use wooden wedges!
Too much prejudice, Jeremy! At least Paul is much more reasonable than you...
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this just in
climber
north fork
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RH TFSTFU. You sound like a f*#king idiot.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Come on Raymond, write on Google page "Rock and Ice december 2011". Don't make mistakes please, otherwise perhaps won't work. And click the first option. You'll see the magazine and you can read it. The article begins in the page 60!
What's your opinion now?
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raymond phule
climber
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Because everybody can see that Pelut placed a lead head and Richy even placed an angle...
What everyone could see where a wire sticking out of a drilled hole. How deep the hole was and what kind of gear he put into the hole cant be seen.
I am still waiting for Pelut's response to to the deep holes around the hook anchor.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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I disagree with bathooks too. Even in solid granite with enough repeats those holes will wear down over time and need to be re-drilled. I understand that they were used to keep the commitment level high, but I still don't agree with the practice. That being said, at least bat hooks are repeatable for a little while. Unlike blown out bashie holes.....
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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LOL... the only reason anybody is still responding to your insanity on this thread, RH, is that it keeps calling attention to what a world-class HACK Pelut is.
You're no friend to him, that's for sure.
Keep it coming....
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Totally legit disagreement, Mike. I am sympathetic with your argument.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Another perjudice...
Why don't you laugh at Jeremy style, is he 3 inch tall? Is he scared of falling down? Isn't he able of going to the last step of the aiders? All these things according to some opinions seen in this thread when giving an opinion about Pelut.
But a reasonable and informed people will think that he is making an A4 pitch and everybody who knows about this kind of climbing knows that he won't risk to blow everything away...
But, as Pelut comes from Catalonia, all we can show our imbred coefficient and laugh! We are Americans, dude!
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raymond phule
climber
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"What's your opinion now? "
that i am not going to pay 4 dollars to prove you wrong.
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pelut espania
Big Wall climber
Espania
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Hola my American dog amigos! I drill and then I fill as all holes should be filled by the metals of some sort. My root will stand up to A6 lies of the lying American dogs who want to go machismo on my bold efforts on the great mud of USA rock. Gracias to RH as he es mi amigo and we do have the rough sexo after my boldness is fini on the roca that is A6. Viva Espania!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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ROFL
Well, gotta get some work done....
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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RH hysterically talking about Jensen on Weak Sauce sounds a bit like Mimi hysterically talking about Jensen on WOS.
RH = Mimi?
I kid! I kid!
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raymond phule
climber
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Rivet hanger, did you read the rock and ice article and found out that you where wrong?
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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RH is obviously a troll. No one is that stupid.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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define "stupid"
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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I was thinking RH might be Mimi or grossman.. It's kinda interesting that they haven't touched this thread......pure speculation on my part though.....no offense intended.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Nah. Don't get me wrong - when it comes to Richard they're mean-spirited, but they tend to be a bit more shrewd. The RH/Pelut trolls are fiercely, staunchly, consummately, even magically terribad, even by Captain Queeg and Shrieking Mimi's standards of output.
RH/PelutEspania are intriguing though, aren't they? If Rivet Hanger is indeed a troll, he certainly has taken us all for a ride...
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Troll, other people talking under a false name, insults, Richy's threats, is Pelut 3 inches tall but not Jeremy or Richy, the mantra "if you drill, you fill" it's only for foreigners, almost any kind of self-criticism...
Well, I think American-aid-climber imbred-coefficient is harder than it seems or in many cases it's just a matter of pure ignorance...
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raymond phule
climber
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I don't believe that rivet hanger is a troll. One of the reasons is that he often post when most Americans sleep.
His irrational and stupid posts are probably mostly because people have said bad things about his hero.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Hmm. You make a compelling point.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Nov 13, 2012 - 10:43am PT
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No photos Jeremy?
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badreligion
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Jan 22, 2013 - 10:02am PT
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A litle respect David is Catalan the same land that Silvia Vidal one of the best ... May be the route is not correct but Richard didnt act like a climber he looks like a american marine !!
In our land aid climbing is still alive and there is a sauvage and traditional methods that in yosemite can increase the grade etc ok no matter just the way he made this was very bad .
Richard say in 2009 " American team will know the Truth about this route " that´s explains hismentality like tea party ...
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Jan 22, 2013 - 10:40am PT
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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"notreallyanaidclimber" it's a great name for you and Jensen!
The problem with the American high inbred coefficient aid climbing community is that do not even know what a wood wedge or a lead head is, some basic things that in Europe has been used for years because in addition of granite, here we also do climb on soft rocks like conglomerate, sandstone or limestone. Perhaps the "new wave" stopped in the late 70's?
That's why all of you and God Jensen keeps thinking that FA drilled so many holes and even lifted up a saw to cut the wood when they just placed lead or wood+piton in natural holes! But instead of asking first, Jensen turned the route into a bolt ladder on the pretext of "if you drill, you fill", when they didn't really drilled. My God, the same "person" that in Wings of Steel drilled more than 150 batholes! A great example of coherence for the next generations (have a look at Ammon's report on Rock&Ice #198 december 2011)! Or maybe it was just pure blind rage against foreign climbers...
And in addition, a lot of Catalan climbers come every summer to repeat hard aid routes like Sea of Dreams or Zenyatta Mondatta in Yosemite, including Pelut. Perhaps you should come to Europe to climb and learn some other tactics...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Yes, learn new and valuable tactics like placements 70 or even 80 cm apart! Up yer game!
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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What is it about wood wedges you guys don't get. They aren't sustainable, neither is trenching. These tactics are not acceptable in North America. We don't come to Spain and tell you guys how to treat your rock, so why don't you give us the same respect and go home if you're not willing to play by our rules! Artificially manufactured danger is just that. Artificial!
Go climb a building!
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Wood wedges are not sustainable? My god!
If you fill a hole with wood and then place a piton, that's not a sustainable tactic? The wood can be removed without difficulty...
If you fill a little hole with lead wich has a little wire, isn't sustainable tactic? The lead can be removed with ease...
Wow, here in Europe are widely used. Come to Spain and France and you'll see!
Or is just a problem of fear? Because hanging on a ladder of leads is not the same that hanging on a ladder of rivets...
I begin to understand a lot of things! My god, my god, my god!
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
|
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What do you do when you realize that you couldn't be a better troll than RH even if you tried?
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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No wood wedges aren't sustainable because each time you place and remove it, especially in a mud infested place like the fishers, you damage the rock, requiring a bigger piece of wood. Pretty soon you're bringing 2x4's up with you.
I don't think you really understand how fragile the "rock" is. It's not even really rock. More like petrified mud or to use a term that you might understand, really old wet dirt.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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DON'T TRY IT IN THE USE, THESE ARE NOT SUSTAINABLE TACTICS!
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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And then, beaks do not damage the rock? Obviously the mud can resist better against iron than against wood...
And what's up with coppers and aluma heads? They can be used in the Towers as they are sometimes used (even for the same Jensen)?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
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Lead, yeah, that's good for the environment.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
|
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I mean really. Who fukking cares?
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raymond phule
climber
|
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when they just placed lead or wood+piton in natural holes!
Cool! They found a completely natural line of perfect holes spaced a convenient distance apart.
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raymond phule
climber
|
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aid routes like Sea of Dreams or Zenyatta Mondatta in Yosemite, including Pelut.
When did Pelut climb in Yosemite? Which routes did he climb?
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Paul Brennan
Trad climber
Ireland
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This still alive? At least its climbing related. Interesting to see wall climbers bashing each other, and non aid climbers bashing certain aid techniques. I think what's needed is an impartial party, with no cloud of controversy hanging over them (not offering judgment on you Richard, just an observation) to do the 3rd ascent and report back to clarify what's going on up there. Or that Spanish guy could go to Yosemite and do the 2nd ascent of some Klaus route. There must be some unrepeated ones. It wouldn't definitively prove anything, but would strengthen his case.
In reference to all the vaunted aid horror shows of europe, where are they? I might have to move back to Ireland soon, but don't want to give up wall climbing. Information on interesting European walls would be appreciated.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
|
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Hey Rivet Hanger
Lead used like this:
What is this called?
Is this called plomo?
And pitons and wedges in holes:
What is this called?
is this called empotradura?
Thanks!
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BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
|
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American high inbred coefficient aid climbing community
Can you please give us this equation? And how are you calculating your coefficient? Please take into account striking a beak 69 times and beating it into submission will change your calculation.
And when you run the numbers for this rather complicated problem you've discovered please also take into account gear placements every 6cm(Spanish standard) vs. every 2-3 meters (USA standard)
would be a factor.
Spanish rating A6
Yosemite rating A1 bolt ladder.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
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Don't worry Klaus, he wouldn't be able to follow one of your routes as they aren't an unbroken line of holes.
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notreallyanaidclimber
Trad climber
CO
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Rivet Hanger,
ahora eres tu quien peca de xenophobo. antes que nada no soy Americano, y para que quede claro no estoy de acuerdo con lo que hizo Jensen, y si los Fisher fueran mi tierra ya hubiese quitado los parabolts y rivets que el coloco.
My questions seemed valid ones and were very respectful.
I simply want to understand if this "issue" is the result of a significantly different approach to aid climbing ethics between the North American and Spanish communities, or if Pelut is an independent thinker that has invented his own ethic. I think this would be good to know.
so here are my questions again:
 Are "hole counts" not kept during ascents in Villanova, Montrebey, Montserrat and aid climbing routes in general?
Can you use chisel and hammer to enhance placements at wish in those places?
is the concept "if you drill it, fill it" new to Spanish aid climbers?
is the concept that "a hole is a hole is a hole" new to Spanish aid climbers?
This questions are not meant to be critical. I am asking out of curiosity. I have "trad" climbed a fair bit in Spain (Roca Regina, Terradets, Villanoba, Montebei -solo en Aragon-, Puig Campana, Ordesa, Pedriza, Riglos, etc, etc) but have never done any aid climbing.
Obviously wooden wedges are very useful in many kinds of rock. In the Dolomites they have been used since the first pitons were made, and are still very much in use today. I certainly don't argue their value, they are obviously a crucial tool, but my questions are completely unrelated to wooden wedges and their validity.
cheers
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notreallyanaidclimber
Trad climber
CO
|
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Paul, Crusher, Jeremy, etc
I wonder if some of the concepts that you have outlined in this thread (a hole is a hole is a hole, drill-fill, sustainable -repeatable- first ascents, etc) are compiled in some sort of north america aid climbing "manifesto" or "declaration of intent". Does Middendorf have something of the sort in his website? The closest I have come up with are the introductions to Chris Mac's aid books. May be his new book How to Big Wall climb has such a chapter?
A compilation of the current "agreed" or "in use" standards/ethics (what is the right word?) for aid first ascents in NA would make a great lead article in the AAJ. Of course ethics/standards are an evolving thing, so it would not be intended as definitive, nor would it be intended as "the law of tha land" (god forbid), but it might help inform folks like Pelut and might avoid similar problems in the future.
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notreallyanaidclimber
Trad climber
CO
|
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Crusher recently published a great piece about this discussion in this year's AAJ, "Look Out! Danger! A plea for restraint in the Fisher Towers of Utah" (AAJ 2013, pages 82-87).
It is narrower and more targeted than the "AAJ lead article" I had suggested in the post above many months ago, but surely for the better as it addresses very well this discussion.
I wonder if Crusher can ask permission from the editors to post his piece here for everyone to read? Surely very few people in this forum get to read the AAJ.
It would have been interesting for Crusher to get in touch with Spanish aid climbing luminaries such as Adolfo Madinabeitia, Silva Vidal, Pep Masip, Jesus Galvez, etc to know if there is consensus regarding aid climbing ethics in Spain and if so what that is.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
|
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Did I mention I love this thread :)
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pelut espania
Big Wall climber
Espania
|
|
Hola mi amigos y pero Americanos! El Crusher is not the aid man so his American dog like ways do not know about the A6 and Spanish mens with the grande sac. Do my roots then dribble on with your miedo as I am aid man and you are American dogs and puto sissy mens. Viva Espania!!!!!
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WBraun
climber
|
|
American dog like ways do not know about the A6 and Spanish mens with the grande sac.
I was in Mali Africa and saw up front your "Spanish mens with the grande sac."
A 5.9 crack bolted because you couldn't climb it.
You're a total poseur and sh!t talker.
It won't help you one iota as everyone else can see besides you that you're just plain full of sh!t .....
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pelut espania
Big Wall climber
Espania
|
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WBraun you stupido americano! You do not listen mi amigo, are you deaf or something? Espanish man has very mucho macho aid sac and free climbing en Mali es no sac. 5.9 is no A6. Mali mens are no sac and Espania aid mans are mucho sac. Comprende mi pero Americano?
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WBraun
climber
|
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I've been to Spain and hung with the best there.
So you're still full of sh!t pelut ......
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Gagner
climber
Boulder
|
|
Notreallyanaidclimber -
Good question about ethics ... many areas have their unique ethics, generally "agreed" upon over a period of time by the people who climb there the most and who put up FA's. When I visit a new area I'm rarely putting up FA's on the first trip, and take some time to learn the style and ethics of the area. Most of these are "unwritten", but tomes from Deucy, Chris Mac and others provide some broad based overarching generalizations.
I thought Crusher's article came out well, and took an unbiased approach that presented the facts - as those facts are very visible. I hope everyone that visits the Fisher Towers whether to repeat routes or to climb new routes reads and embraces the area's generally agreed upon styles and ethics, just as I would if I was climbing in Spain, or anywhere else for that matter.
Paul
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
|
|
The Fishers are far different from the clean granite of Yosemite. You can take some mud, moisten it in your mouth, and "plug" trenched heads. If you alter the rock in the valley, it is there for all to see for the next 10,000 years or more.
I know that we have all heard the stories regarding Beyer's ethics, and be they true or not, outsiders might come in to repeat his super high ratings, thinking that they are doing the hardest aid routes on the planet.
They see his technique and apply it to new routes, so these things spread to others, particularly those not plugged into the Fisher scene, like Crusher. I've heard that when you do put some moistened mud to cover a trenched alumihead, it is often visible as a patch of lighter colored rock.
There are many fer sure hard routes in the Fishers. What needs to come forth is an understanding that trenching or drilling holes, and then hiding them, in an attempt to befuddle the second ascent parties, is just lame. It needs to be written about in the mags, in an attempt to put this to a stop.
I've discussed this at length with Duane Raleigh, who in his old age is not at all into trenching or drilling. They would do all kinds of crazy stuff, such as tossing ice tools over knobs and jugging up to them in order to pass blank ground. Naked Lunch is supposed to be like that, and very hard.
I've also heard that beneath the mud, the cutler is so hard that you can bend a rurp if you try to pound it into blank rock. You can trench an A1 head into it no problem. When you clean the pitch, you try to cover the trench by moistening some mud and filling it, but as said above, they are still visible.
The mud-covering-hole technique needs to be stopped, and when they are seen, they need to be brought to attention, so that this crap stops.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
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Base, I am not so stupid as to impugn your knowledge of geology, but how
could any sandstone be hard enough to bend a RURP?
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
|
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how could any sandstone be hard enough to bend a RURP?
For example Eldo sandstone is bullet hard. Pressure and time, grain size probably comes into play, other aspects of the parent material was well.
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Rudder
Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
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It's not clear whether you repeated their route, failed on their route, created your own route. Perhaps all three. It's a mess.
You sure picked a pile of sh#t upon which to make a statement, eh?
Do I support what Jensen did?
No.
In case you missed it, I wrote in this thread that Richard should have come down after seeing the crap on the first and second pitches. I, in no way, defend his continuation of the line. A line of worthless bolt hangers is just that. A monument to vanity. As is a line with worthless holes.
RJ reminds me a lot of Fred A. Leuchter, Jr., seriously.
Ironic how he has taken on the Grossman role for this drama (outsider doesn't conform to the locals and gets his route chopped). If the ropes were still there would he have...? ;)
Sorry, I'll go back to minding my own business, I just thought this thread was funny.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Ironic how he has taken on the Grossman role for this drama (outsider doesn't conform to the locals and gets his route chopped). If the ropes were still there would he have...? ;)
Don't know who you are, but you have posted some amazingly clueless and intentionally offensive "material" recently. You seem to have a hard on for me. Are you a Grossman proxy or fanboy?
It's easy to talk trash when you're anonymous, "Rudder." Care to be as public with your real name as you are with your drive-by shootings?
And, since you seem to have missed it, the route is not "chopped." There never was a route there. All I found was a line of holes: big, deep, blown-out from yanked-out, bomber lead-heads, and drilled on average about 24 inches apart. If we're calling cratered holes every 18 to 24 inches a "route" now, then let me know what's next on the downward spiral. See, I don't think that qualifies as "climbing" or as "putting up a route."
Do you, "Rudder?"
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Huge difference between Grossman never touching Wings of Steel and berating it versus Jensen going up and seeing LOD firsthand and reporting on the tangible things he found.
But it's so much harder to troll with facts do carry on.
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notreallyanaidclimber
Trad climber
CO
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Thanks for your response Paul. You, Crusher and Jeremy have made some very valuable contributions in this discussion and I agree that Crusher's article in the AAJ is very good. I am sure it will be referenced time and time again in the future and it clearly applies to the wider aid climbing scene, not only to the Fisher Towers. Makes sense that Pelut might have been partly inspired to trench and chip after repeating Beyer's Intifada.
The fake Pelut in this forum cracks me up. Nothing like an english speaker that knows a few words of spanish attempting to write in spanglish. He might want to note that dog is written with 2 "r"s: "perro" and not "pero". He is surely having fun with his contributions.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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+1 to fake Pelut poster.
How long before Rivet Hanger posts?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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It is hilariously rich that pseudo-Pelut is far more worth reading than any real-Pelut could be.
And where IS RH? He's long overdue. Of course, he just keeps repeating himself ad nauseum, so pseudo-Pelut is the one really worth reading. lol
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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I'm here aragin, Richy!
First of all I'd like to put the people in two groups: Steve, Paul and Jeremy, among others, who deserve all the respect. And then, someone who doesn't respect the FA and treats the authors with the same hate as we has treated 30 years ago... Really ironic!
I haven't read the Cruscher's AAJ article, I'll do for sure as I read Jensen's book.
I'd like to point out some objective facts:
You keep having wrong prejudices about Catalonia and Europe in general, although you keep absolutely unknowing some techniques widely used in Europe (wood wedges, leadheads, etc...). In a wider sense, sadly, this is the typical attitude of USA in the world, whereas the world tries to improve looking at what's new in the States, a lot of Americans not even try to understand and keep the cliché (which is easier than trying to understand a thing).
Silvia Vidal, Pep Masip and Pelut know each other and sometimes they even do climb together as they all are Catalans and ours is a little country... And I guess that maybe Medinabeitia and almost for sure Jesús Gálvez come often to climb to Catalonia. The aid climbing ethincs in Catalonia, Spain and Europe are widely agreed, and I guess you won't find any difference in their opinion (it's very funny to think that Pelut inspired himself when he repeated Intifada; drilled holes and other tricks are older than aid climbing itself, and the ethics about that is really clear in Europe). But what you will find there is a thing called respect. Respect for other's routes. As Crusher did on Hot parad'ice, you can repeat a route and give your opinion, which can be excellent or really bad, time puts the things in the right place, but I make sure there is a big consensus in the Spanish aid climbing community about what Jensen did on the Titan...
Pelut and Ester have repeted some of the most difficult routes in the Fishers (doesn't mind if they are rated A4, A5 or A6). Intifada or Weird Science are good examples of that. I think we'll agree that not everybody can face those climbs. In the same way, they've done and keep doing SA of hard aid routes in Spain, even in winter. And they've put new routes on the Fishers in addition of Spain.
Talking about Oju peligru! all your reference is Jensen's ascent. Needless to talk about Wings of Steel and all the opinions it created, but as an objective fact, from the original A5 rating, McNeely purposes A3+, and as far as I know, a hook is a hook now and 30 years before... And as far as I know, a bathook and a bathead is the same in the Fishers that in Yosemite, a thing not so obvious to Jensen since he justifies his new route under the pretext of drilled holes (although he finds wood wedges and doesn't know wtf they are).
In addition, he was there absolutely alone, and if the locals prefer a bolt ladder instead of a supposed A6+ because Pelut is a foreigner, I think everything is clear. Because for me that's the drama, the almost absolute lack of criticism on what Richy did there alone... For a rational person, the criticism should include both Pelut and Jensen.
And about the distance between the gear, I do not see a significant difference between how Jeremy Aslaksen places his gear in an A4 pitch (weird science) and how Pelut does in an A4 pitch (Hot parad'ice)...
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raymond phule
climber
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The aid climbing ethincs in Catalonia, Spain and Europe are widely agreed, and I guess you won't find any difference in their opinion (it's very funny to think that Pelut inspired himself when he repeated Intifada; drilled holes and other tricks are older than aid climbing itself, and the ethics about that is really clear in Europe).
What do you mean? I am from europe and have done some aid climbing in europe and USA and I had european friends that aid and free climbed at a high level at many places in the world.
The aid climbing ethics I know about are really skeptical about drilling at all and drilling holes to put heads in them where considered really bad style.
Do you say that drilling holes and putting heads in them and later pulling the heads are good style in Spain and the rest of Europe? Is it a common practice in Spain?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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European you? Really? Impossible if you are a climate change skeptical...
No, it isn't at all a good style, although sadly you can find them in some routes in Europe (added after FA) as you can find them in Yosemite...
So, is a good style to drill bathooks and batheads even in a FA (more than 130 if I'm not wrong)? If you drill, you fill? Always? In what cases?
Why do you accept than Oju peligru! had drilled heads when Richy didn't even know how to use the gear? Because, as an European, do you know how a wood wedge is used? Have you ever placed a lead head?
So many questions, my friend, but no crticism towards Jensen's actions...
Do you like shinning bolt ladders and anchor chains in the Fishers?
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raymond phule
climber
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European you? Really?
Yes as I had said before, why do you believe that I mostly post between 7 and 22 CET? I believe that you would be taken a little more serious if you listen to other people instead of immediately listen to your prejudice.
No, it isn't at all a good style, although sadly you can find them in some routes in Europe (added after FA) as you can find them in Yosemite...
So, is a good style to drill bathooks and batheads even in a FA (more than 130 if I'm not wrong)? If you drill, you fill? Always? In what cases?
Why do you accept than Oju peligru! had drilled heads when Richy didn't even know how to use the gear? Because, as an European, do you know how a wood wedge is used? Have you ever placed a lead head?
So many questions, my friend, but no crticism towards Jensen's actions...
Do you like shinning bolt ladders and anchor chains in the Fishers?
So it is not good style in Spain but you still seem to defend the style when Pelut used on the fisher towers. It really hard to understand what you mean sometimes.
You change the subject as usual.
You still do not understand that at least some of the holes where blown out and couldn't be used anymore.
Changing the subject once again to what Jensen did.
Why don't you just admit that Pelut's route seems to have been done in very bad style?
No, I have never used a wooden page och lead head maybe because all my aid climbing have been in granite. I just doubt that you could say much about European aid climbing ethics because I believe that the ethics are likely different all over Europe. I doubt that you for example know a lot about the aid climbing that has been done at the granite cliffs in northern Norway. I am not sure but I believe that the aid climbing ethics in northern europe has had more influences from Yosemite than Spain.
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raymond phule
climber
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Impossible if you are a climate change skeptical...
Your edit.
What are you talking about? Have you read some of my posts on the forum and thought I where skeptical to climate change? Do you believe that there are no people that are skeptical to climate change in Europe.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Do you know the name of your European country? If you write at night on internet doesn't mean you write from Europe... I live in Barcelona, but you cannot know that for sure... I could be writing from Bozeman (Montana) at midnight... And about climate change, I heard about a single European guy who were a climate change skeptic. Were you!
The thing is that you trust Jensen, a thing that I do not.
And according to Crusher's report, no drilled holes in Hot parad'ice. Jensen drilled more than 130 holes in WOS but he can drive to Mohab, belive that he climb LOD and get an ovation. My God!
Trollveggen has been a common destination for wall climbers all around Europe... Camí dels somnis was a FA from a catalan team...
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raymond phule
climber
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What can I say? I just advice you to try listen to other people instead of trying to put everything into your preconceived world view based on your prejudices. You seems to claim that I am an American because I disagree with your posts... You think that people disagree with the way Pelut put up his route simple because he is from europe...
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raymond phule
climber
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I really do not understand why people continue to edit there post after they had posted it the first time. You need to read it several times to find all information
"And about climate change, I heard about a single European guy who were a climate change skeptic. Were you!"
What the hell are you talking about? There are still many Europeans that are skeptical to climate change. What about Swensmark, Hudlum (or something similar).
About the troll wall. Is it common to drill holes and fill in copperheads or lead heads in them on the trollwall? The trollwall is neither in northern norway.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Thanks for your advice!
No, I just know that you don't say where you are from, and yes, I say that there are big perjudices against non-american aid-climbers and even with an american aid-climbers considered as foreigners in some places. The most ironic thing is that Jensen did in the Towers what he has tried to show for the last 30 years...
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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No, in Troll wall is not good to drill batheads, as it isn't anywhere around Europe. Some people have done that and do that, in FA, SA, and so on as you can see even in Yosemite and as the same Jensen did on WOS...
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raymond phule
climber
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I have said that I am from Europe and I would say that is enough information and it is consistent with everything I have written on this forum. There is no reason that you would start to believe me more if I gave you more details. You have already shown that you do not believe what other people say.
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raymond phule
climber
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Why do you talk about Jensen all the time?
You have said that batheads are bad style in europe. It is clear that batheads where used on Peluts route (clearly seen in pictures (also peluts own pictures) but you seems to be unable to put together those two facts and say that Pelut's route where done in bad style.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Yes, I do belive what Crusher says, what Paul and Jeremy says, when its a first hand information...
And sorry for the edit, but as long as English isn't my mother language, I edit the post for changing some mistakes.
But, do you really trust Jensen version?
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raymond phule
climber
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Yes, I trust Jensen version much more than your version. I don't believe that anyone that have been there and seen the route say that there are not a lot of drilled holes that have been filled with heads.
The editing really isn't about changing the language but written whole new sentences and paragraphs.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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But if Jensen find a wood piece and doesn't know wtf is! And begins to elucubrate about that, when simply is a wood wedge for a piton! A A1 technique in Europe!
I do not see drilled holes since you can place lead heads in places that a copper or an alu wouldn't work, but even if they were, don't you think the most rational thing would have been repeat the route as FA made or bail and explain that? It's a matter of respect!
Who is Jensen to go there and do what he did when himself made more than 130 drilled holes on his own route? If I follow the same ideas, next week WOS should be a shinning bolt ladder! Don't you see the contradiction? And don't you see teh hate and perjudice in the first 100 of this tread?
Steve made the SA of Hot Parad'ice and he enjoyed. He sais he wouldn't have done the route like the FA team, but he respected it, made a supertopo trip report and even an AAJ article.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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And the comment denying to have a meet with Pelut to talk about it?
Erased? I cannot belive!
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raymond phule
climber
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But if Jensen find a wood piece and doesn't know wtf is! And begins to elucubrate about that, when simply is a wood wedge for a piton! A A1 technique in Europe!
Yes, he made a mistake about those.
I do not see drilled holes since you can place lead heads in places that a copper or an alu wouldn't work,
There are round holes seen in the pics.
but even if they were, don't you think the most rational thing would have been repeat the route as FA made or bail and explain that? It's a matter of respect!
Once again. The holes where blown out and couldn't be used to climb the route. Yes, he could have bailed and I believe that he should have but then should you and pelut only have said that the climbing above where much better and that he bailed because he was not good enough.
Who is Jensen to go there and do what he did when himself made more than 130 drilled holes on his own route? If I follow the same ideas, next week WOS should be a shinning bolt ladder! Don't you see the contradiction?
This is just a redhearing that is irrelevant to this route.
And don't you see teh hate and perjudice in the first 100 of this tread?
No, I see not much prejudice. I see people being angry about what they can see in Jensen pictures. I don't know why you think prejudice is necessary part of that.
Steve made the SA of Hot Parad'ice and he enjoyed. He sais he wouldn't have done the route like the FA team, but he respected it, made a supertopo trip report and even an AAJ article.
Yes, and it is a possibility that that route was done in a much better style than pelut's first route.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Because Jensen was never good enough for that route, Raymond!
He didn't know wtf wood wedges were and he also failed with lead heads.
When you clean up a leadhead, it usually gets round because you need a chisel to remove the whole lead (that's why you see the rounded holes and Pelut with a chisel on youtube video; and a chisel it's also needed to place them; so if you see a man with a chisel it's because he's gonna place-put out a lead). But you can use them again! But Jensen went there with all his prejudice and his ego of "A6 rating killer", saw the rounded holes and thought "these f*#king spaniards are a cheats". They've useing alu or coppers and destroyed the holes once on the anchor. When he found out the wood, thought the same, it's still written in his webpage (maybe will be erased soon). So, instead of try to keep in touch with the FA team and ask for information, he acted like a dumbass, a thing that nobody seems to recognize...
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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And now, don't come back saying that leads are not sustainable. Coppers or alu aren't neither. I remember a good tread of Mark Hudon explaining his point of view about deadheads, the placements of a head vs microcams, etc.
It happens also in pitons A2 routes. You see the original topo and the route today, and instead of the bunch of blades of the topo, you'd better bring a bunch of big angles or bongs...
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raymond phule
climber
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So you once again have the view that drilling a hole, place a lead head, use a chisel to remove the lead head such that the hole get even larger, is a good and sustainable way to aid climb?
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TwistedCrank
climber
Bungwater Hollow, Ida-ho
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How can you be an "A6 Killer" when A6 has never existed to begin with?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Right, from A6 to A4+ and from A5 to A3+...
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raymond phule
climber
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"Right, from A6 to A4+ and from A5 to A3+... "
You really should learn about the change in aid ratings that have happened over the years. Many routes where rated A5 in the eighties and is now rated much lower (and not only due to further ascents doing them easier).
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Yes, but a hook is a hook now and 29 years ago!
And again, to place a leadhead you don't use the chisel to drill the hole, you use it to fill the hole the best way you can. And the chisel isn't like the ones used to remove a head, is thinner and does not have a blade. The more lead touches the hole surface, the better it holds the weight!
Example:
Do you see the hole on the right, next to the leadhead placed? Well, that's perfect for a leadhead. But what's up when you remove it? Probably the hole will get a little bit more rounded... And if you are as stupid, full of prejudices and ignorant as Jensen, you'll think the FA team lied.
But it happens in ALL the routes when you use pitons, leadheads, hooks, beaks, etc. That's the difference between aid climbing and clean aid climbing.
So, that's life! Some routes get harder and some gets easier after some ascents. That's why some route ratings change, but at least in Europe, no one downrates a A5 route to A3+...
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raymond phule
climber
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So your latest version of the route is that it already existed a lot of nice rounds hole on the route 20 inches apart such that Pelut didn't drill any holes for his lead heads?
You show your ignorance all the time. There have of course been early A5 routes that have been downgraded to A3+ also in Europe. It has been a change in the method of grading aid routes and new wave A3+ is often really hard. I also believe that sandbagging have been very common.
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pelut espania
Big Wall climber
Espania
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Hola mi Americano perrrro putos!
Aqui are the facts:
Americano putos can no do A6
Only Espania mans can do A6
Joshnson and Wings of e'steel is no bueno
All Americanos are weak and scared but Kohl is rock God and must be from Espania!
I am best aids climber in Catalonia and el todo mundo! And I am Espanish man.
The only bueno nailing on my US trip was Jeremys madre!
Viva Espania!!!!
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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My opinion about the route is worthless...
But LOD wasn't exactly a leadheads placements every 50 cm. And probably they wouldn't be round until the pitch was cleaned. But as long as I tried to explain it to you and you don't arrive to understand it (I'll make you a drawing later), I'm glad you recognized that Jensen was wrong with the wood wedges and his absurd theories. You could check out Jensen's photos on his webpage, but, oh surprise, they've vanished... Is it magic?
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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And according to Crusher's report, no drilled holes in Hot parad'ice.
I did not say there were no drilled holes in Hot Parad-Ice.
There are many holes in Hot-Parad_ice.
They are not natural. They are in blank sections of rock. They are created, made, forced. Made with a hammer and something.
I asked Pelut, and he said he did not use a drill.
Some of them look like they are made with a cold chisel, which, because the cold chisel steel is tempered so very hard, and because the Fisher Tower sandstone is so soft, can create a hole that is deep, precise, a bit fat (wide) but great for stacking two Birdbeaks/Peckers. Many holes looked like this.
I asked Pelut. Pelut told me he used pitons, and sometimes pounded them in to entirely blank bits of rock. And he bent lots of them. In places, sharp pitons can be pounded straight into the rock. It's very slow, and expensive, as you will destroy many pitons in the process.
So, the holes are not made with a drill, but they ARE drilled holes. Many, many!
On Hot-Parad_Ice the holes are usable by a second ascent party. We did use them (or about half of them, as they were so close together). There is no other choice, as they rock is utterly blank in places-no crack, no seam, nothing. The holes are still there, easily usable by a third ascent party.
Lots of pictures here:
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/HOT-PARAD-ICE-KINGFISHER-Second-Ascent/t11890n.html
Crusher
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raymond phule
climber
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Yes, I am sure that it is just my fault that I don't think that what you say make much sense.
Some questions. Do you believe that Pelut:
Drilled holes where he put in lead heads?
If yes how many?
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MisterE
climber
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Hola mi Americano perrrro putos!
Aqui are the facts:
Americano putos can no do A6
Only Espania mans can do A6
Joshnson and Wings of e'steel is no bueno
All Americanos are weak and scared but Kohl is rock God and must be from Espania!
I am best aids climber in Catalonia and el todo mundo! And I am Espanish man.
The only bueno nailing on my US trip was Jeremys madre!
Viva Espania!!!!
LOL! Hope you are getting some care for your Immunity Deficiency, best aids climber...
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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When I think about drilled holes, I think about a round hole made with a chisel or a bit to place rivets, made to place a head or a hook inside.
The holes you found, as you reported in the trip report, were made as you explain. Indeed, I've seen the destroyed iron hawk (which are made of chromoly steel and the brand is cheaper than BD)...
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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The holes you found, as you reported in the trip report, were made as you explain. Indeed, I've seen the destroyed iron hawk (which are made of chromoly steel and the brand is cheaper than BD)...
Exactly. The whole point of Aid climbing as i understand it, is to try and conform to the rock, and use what it gives you, not create your own placements by bashing pitons into blank rock and call it A6...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Strip away all the posturing, RH, and you are left with this SIMPLE, hard, cold fact:
Pelut drilled holes about every 24 inches (on average, many much closer) ALL the way up the Titan. Virtually every placement.
That is NOT a route; I don't care WHAT you put into those holes. And it is NOT A6, not A6+, not A5, not A-ANYTHING! It's a hole-ladder bottom to top, and THAT is not climbing.
For you to claim I was not good enough is a complete joke. What Pelut did (and expected other climbers to do) is NOT sustainable on that sandstone. And my earliest posts about not knowing what the wood was for are later (on my own site) revamped, as I even have pictures of holes with wooden wedges and pitons. So, I did figure out what Pelut had done in some of the holes. And I have EARLY pics on my site showing the lead-heads, so I knew from the start what he was doing with those. I KNEW what was happening. I just wasn't willing to do THAT to the rock on the SA.
And the real joke in your posts is that you call the wooden wedges with pitons A1. But if that's true, then HOW could Pelut have claimed A6+ if he was doing A1 with a hole every 18 inches through the "crux" of the route? What a laugh!
The irony is that I did complete the route SO THAT idiots like you could not later claim that I had not seen the whole route, so that you could not claim that the climbing was much different higher up than wherever I might have stopped because I had gotten sickened enough by what I saw! But I did see the WHOLE pile through, bottom to top, so that that claim could NEVER be floated. And I climbed it ground up, rather than rapping the route, so that nobody could claim that I didn't see it from a leader's perspective. If people think I should have stopped, tough. Then no honest SA was possible (I think, exactly as Pelut intended); so the ridiculous rating would have stood forever, and it was all a lie. Sorry, dude, no A6+, no A5, not even A4. Just a bottom to top drilled ladder.
What I did was convert the route to something HONEST, and in so doing I placed a LOT less permanent metal than Pelut would have done if he had been honest about the steaming pile! And that's because I (unlike Pelut) know how to top-loop on steep rock. I don't live in my third-loops like a weak pansy, filling the rock with "protection" three times as often as is needed (ALL drilled, btw). As MY long history shows, I'm actually willing to take long falls.
And all your harping on WoS is really quite hilarious. You fixate on the rating, but you are clueless. If anything has come out of the SA, it is that WoS is HARD, technical, and that you are going to fall a LOT and take LONG ones. You ARE going to get hurt. I'll repeat, you ARE going to get hurt. So if that's only "A3+," then Pelut's pile was A0-! LOL
There was nothing on LOWS (I stick by my rename) that was even slightly stressful. It was a bottom to top JOKE! LOL
Goofball, I did the fifth ascent of the Sea of Dreams, back before it got all drilled up, and I didn't add ONE hole. I did the SA of Intifada and didn't add ONE hole. Pelut can claim neither. Pelut just drills and drills.
And then he drills some more. He drills until EVERY placement is drilled. He drills and drills on EVERY climb he does. He drills when it is not even remotely necessary. He drills not to piece a route together, bridging blank sections! He drills (and CLOSE together) because he is chicken-droppings. He drills and drills and drills and drills and drills. And then, because he is chicken-droppings, he drills even more. He even back-drills, thinking he doesn't have ENOUGH metal in the wall yet, because he is chicken-droppings.
That's pathetic on ANY continent, because it is NOT climbing.
End of story.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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The whole point of Aid climbing as i understand it, is to try and conform to the rock, and use what it gives you, not create your own placements by bashing pitons into blank rock and call it A6.
Big Mike +2
You nailed it; pun intended. :-)
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WBraun
climber
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Good post Richard.
Good post .......
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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The only thing remaining to be sussed out on this thread is the identity of
'Rivet hanger'. Show us some cojones and tell us who you are!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Thank you, Werner.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Hey, madbolter, remind me, how far off the ground was the first belay, the "hook belay" on Peligru!
It was rather less than a ropelength, yes?
And Big MIke: YEAH!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Depending on where you ground-anchor, it's somewhere between 85 and 100 feet off the "deck." I ran out a 170-foot pitch to bypass it and reach a good crack system. I placed a single 1/2-inch bolt below the initial seam (very close to Pelut's initial drilled lead-head, btw), which easily enables reaching the crack system.
And, to remind, the hook anchor is deeply drilled! Deep, angle-taking holes fore and aft, and the hooks themselves sit into deeply-drilled pits.
The fact that we now know that Pelut was driving wooden wedges and pitons into at least some of the holes explains the depth of the holes fore and aft. I got mostly-buried angles, but perhaps he used wedges and other sorts of pitons. Don't know. But it was no "death anchor."
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BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
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I can't believe you all are having a conversation over the InterDewb with two retarded people.
RH and Pelut.
It's been repeated and confirmed POS line up the Fishers... End of Topic.
Use the time you would reply in gearing up for another climb.....
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Also, did WBraun just get trolled by a Pelut impersonator?
Man, that alone is worth reading the deluge of new posts...
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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You Jensen drill in your own FA! And the you acuse the others to drill. My God, how can you be so stupid!
It's clear you knew what a wood wedge was used for, and a leadhead (you called'em bashies first?), very clear in your own webpage... Come on, run and change it all the information there as you've done with the comments and the pictures!
And yes, wood wedge + piton is a A1 technique as a Pecker is a A1 technique if you place only one and the placement is perfect. As far as you make the holes deeper to place an angle inside, you must belive that a piton is only valid if placed till the eye, don't even know that you can place just some milimeters of the piton and then tight it up with a little cordelette... You even arrive to elocubrate with a special kind of pitons. Sick minded!
And very funny you justify yourself for not have added drilled holes in Intifada and Sea of Dreams (which is now plenty of drilled holes, btw! As far as Yosemite is plenty of foreigners, they must be the blame for that, because american aid-climbers have a very strict ethics) when no one has acused you of that. Is your conscience betraying you?
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oh, hello Rivet Hanger!
Remember, you are not the pieces. You are the board on which the game is played.
Also, as before, so again, going after Richard will not change peoples' opinion about Pelut, nor will climbing the "racism because foreigner" tree yield much fruit.
If you need a reminder, here's Princess Luna and some swans.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Ha, ha, that sure looks like fun.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Is Steve "Crisher" Bartlett a chicken? He, as Jeremy Aslaksen, places gear about every 20 inches in a A4 pitch...
Meanwhile, Jensen has big bollocks and places bolts and rivets instead of heads and peckers...
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raymond phule
climber
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Did Pelut drill holes and place lead heads in those holes on LOD?
If yes how many such placements did he make?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Richard,
Could you please fix the gallery image links in your blog?
All the links yield blank pages in my browser (google Chrome).
Here is an example:
http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/?gallery=holes-and-rivets
I had to wade in to the post 299 of Sep 21 2012, before I could see any of your photos (the photos rehosted on supertopo).
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1827613&tn=299
Also, the first photos by the apparently real David Palmada "Pelut" (un de tants) are at the bottom of the above page, and his the stacked wood wedge and piton shots are on the next page.
One suggestion (which will be lost in this huge thread) - you could have avoided placing that belay bolt at the base, by using the suggested haulbag full of rocks, and extending that with a spare rope to the base (locking biner on it there). Then you could have still made it past the "hook belay".
Incidentally, the "hook belay" photo shows the hooks up high, but the weight is really on those good deep leadheads/batheads at the next level down - I think everyone could see that without even going onto the route, once they understand what those are (they are not in common use in the USA). It also looks like the highest 2 pieces above Esther but below the hooks are bolt hangers or piton heads. Actually as a staged "sketchy belay" photo, it is not that different from the famous "RURP belay" shot in Yosemite Climber. There the rope goes out of the frame to where the leader/photographer is anchored, probably on solid gear.
The rating? Strange they would rate it harder than Intifada - that appeared to have one legit A4+/A5 pitch, judged by the second and third ascents. Maybe it is much easier now?
I see 3 pitches rated A5 on Pelut's topo. Maybe it seemed harder/scarier doing the FA of those pitches than repeating Beyer's route.
As for the A6+ pitch, maybe the "hook belay" seemed scarier than the anchors on Beyer's route. Or maybe they knew that anchor was good (with all the deep leadheads/batheads they used and later cleaned), and added the hooks to make it look scary. The photo looks that way to me - the hooks are "backup". The lead line goes through them, but just out of the frame is the deep leadhead/bathead seen in the video.
Using the A6+ rating could be seen as simply relative to Beyer's rating of Intifada. So we should not expect it to line up with the accepted aid ratings. The magazine editors did not seem to realize this, though.
Richard's clear topo shows:
900' route.
First 650' - about 280 drilled aid holes on the FA - just a few short crack sections.
Last 250' - follows cracks - only 2 drilled aid holes.
That's kind of a bad ratio of drilling to crack aiding - a lot like Harding's route on the Porcelain Wall. Or the original Dawn Wall up to Wino Tower.
http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/danger_topo_mine.jpg
So I don't think Pelut and Esther did anything worse in terms of extent of hole ladders than the poorest of Harding's drillfests. Although one could definitely argue the amount of rock removed in their drilling was larger per hole than the equivalent rivet. Apparently they seemed to think that leaving less fixed metal was better and justified the larger holes. The more frequent holes also added to the "impact". It's somewhat encouraging to see that Pelut's newer route uses smaller holes (chiseled/pinned beak slots), although they still have twice the impact they should, due to the short spacing. (This assumes the route is worth the impact in terms of drilled/total pitch lengths - I'd like to see that ratio well under .5). On the other hand, people grid bolt sport crags in America and few people seem to care that the routes could be done with half the bolts....
However, using Harding's worst climbs and grid-bolted sport crags as standards for the extent of hole ladders on hard aid climbs is unacceptable. We would like to see something more challenging than a route where over 70% of the upward progress is from drilled/pinned holes. If you are bold, show me videos of a clean ascent of something like Zodiac or the Muir Wall. If you're really good, don't take a hammer along. If you fancy yourself extreme, try to get up even a pitch or two on Wings of Steel (with no hammer).
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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I agree with Cummins in one aspect. Since photos are not available anymore in Jensen's webpage, people can look at Jensen's and Pelut's pics between 299 and 320 more or less on this thread.
Here some examples of considered drilled holes (or euro bashies according to Lord Jensen terminology; altough he yet knew what a wood wedge and a leadhead was; altough he could even see the saw marks on the wall when wooden wedges are cut at home...) which definetelly aren't:
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Why are all of the cables fubar?
Oh, right, we are not dealing with a journeyman here...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Sorry about the links. A couple of months ago we migrated the whole site to a new server, and my (apparently too superficial) testing indicated that all came across correctly. I'll try to get everything working later today or this evening.
RH, the only response I have left for you is very simple: you keep using veiled language to accuse me of lying. So, let me get clear about what you are really accusing me of lying about. Did I fabricate many-dozens of pictures? Did I drill something like 100 new holes that Pelut didn't drill and then attribute that drilling to him? I'm just curious (in a fascinated horror sort of way) about exactly what you think I did.
I don't lie in any substantive details (no human being can every be 100% objectively accurate on all points). I documented as thoroughly and carefully as I could. And the route is a worthless pile that is not "climbing."
Oh, I forgot one point: Any comparison with Harding's drilling ratios (on his worst climbs) is missing the point. Harding never drilled and then came back and called the result something it was not; and he never overrated his routes by 3-5 number grades and called them the hardest things in the world. Harding was no hack and no pretender!
Had Pelut reported the route as it was, nobody (including me) would have given the thing a second thought: "Guys, there's this new route on the Titan. I call it, 'Look Out; Hole Ladder.' It's a line of large holes, spaced about 18 to 30 inches apart, and you fill the (now somewhat blown out) holes with wooden wedges and particularly-shaped lead-heads. I rate it A3. Pretty cool."
Read THAT (accurate) account of the "route," and Pelut would still have gotten some flack for admitting that basically all he did was drill. But he didn't report THAT, and, unlike Harding, he had the international temerity to rate the heap A6+ and suggest that it was the hardest thing ever done.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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At least he had a hot spinner sub-man.
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pc
climber
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Perhaps they can use some of that 6+ aid to claw back them $2000 euros...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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LOL... I had not realized the underlying nature of RH's (Pelut's) resistance to the truth coming out. There was MONEY (not an insignificant amount) riding on his version of the "route."
Uhh... who is motivated to lie here? Too, too funny.
Great catch, Crunch!
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Hey, aren't those the same people who awarded Monsanto the Global Food Prize?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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That page 106 problem is fixed now. At least, I've tried it in Chrome and Firefox, and it works in both of those now.
Thanks, Clint, for pointing it out!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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are f'ing kidding me? $ was involved?
now I have to go back and read this thread over.
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MisterE
climber
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Why are all of the cables fubar?
Oh, right, we are not dealing with a journeyman here...
Great point, Mucci
and great find crunch!
$2700 and Spanish pride.
A volatile combination to oppose.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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I wish. More like $2700. Of course, in a few weeks it could be about $15000 if Congress doesn't get its ducks in a row.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Richard,
Thanks for fixing the gallery code - I can see all the photos for the links I've tried now (through late June so far).
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Cummins, the comments were also deleted and haven't been replaced. Maybe if you ask Jensen... At least in honour of the objective facts.
And look Richy, I do clearly say that you LIED. Besides a mixture of prejudice an absolute lack of knowledge about the gear used by the FA team. You are ridiculous when you write in your own post nº 319 "Sawed-off, splintered, wooden peg. The saw marks on the wall are still visible, two years after the FA!". The saw marks! The wood wedges come cut from home, stupid!
You also are ridiculous when you claim that Pelut made drilled holes and you show photos like this:
Since you didn't even know what a lead head was (I've seen the alu and coppers you left on the ground, besides some rivets and bolts, but no leadheads; In addition you call leadheads bashies or even eurobashies!), your ignorance impeded you to realize that the holes you found were not drilled holes. As I have explained, when a leadhead is removed, the remaining hole in a soft rock like those of the Fishers is a rounded hole, that can be used again for the following party, by the way. I can agree with locals that maybe that's not a long-term sustainable method as in the case of smashing a pin against blank rock, but as Crush says, how many people are going to repeat routes like that? Anyway, that's another thread and that would have been a good critics about the route if you had respected the FA. But what you did, blinded for your perjudice, hate and ego was claiming the FA team made a hole ladder, and what's worse, when they proposed to have a meet with you repeteadly to talk about, you rejected. That's not the behavour of a honest person. I wasn't there and the photo is yours, but the red circles are, since my point of view, also candidate placements to place a leadhead, which would be rounded if FA team would have used'em.
It's also funny you claim the FA team were a couple of chickens for placing the gear every 20 inches (50 cm). As you can see in Crush and Aslaksen own photos, they do also place the gear in a similar distance. In your hard and technical WOS, your potencial long flights were assured for a rivet (which as far as I remember Ammon didn't pull out any of them although they've been there for 30 years and probably justify the A3+ rating), whereas a hard peckers or leadheads pitch would probably end with a hit-against-something (ground?) in case of even a slight mistake. As Crush said about Hot parad'ice: Two thoughts on this: it's one of the best, most sustained, technical aid pitches I've ever done, but also has a number of placements that are small holes (see the other photos) that appear to have no connection with any crack system or other feature. Bent a lot of pitons tying to make them work! Your hate impides to realize that's an acceptable way to do a SA and the following opinion/critics and even publish an article in AAJ, but acting as you did, only makes clear your prejudices and your fanatic and sick personality. Because although your absolute ignorance, I honestly think that you didn't never had the intention to do the SA in the same way FA team put up the route. You just were attract for the A6+ proposal and your inner beast or Sauron's eye as other call it, couldn't be controled.
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raymond phule
climber
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So you see holes in the spots that you have circled? I can't see any holes.
About the distance between the placements. Crusher say that he only used about half of Pelut's placements. I believe more in that than what you think that you can see in some pictures.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Pere Larocalla,
It seems you are more interested in a "fight" than in understanding the truth.
This is a "child's" approach to an argument.
The child just wants to "win" the argument.
They do not care about understanding the truth.
Did you have siblings and argue this way with them?
It is boring and meaningless to an adult, sorry.
(You are not the only one with this problem, and none of us is perfect,
but I think you would do a better job of defending Pelut if you stick with
points that make sense and not attack everything with ludicrous ideas.)
You ask the same questions over and over.
Richard has answered most of them 10 times, but you keep asking again
and ignoring the answers.
So why should he bother repeating it again if you don't read or remember what he writes?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Yes, mine it's the only child attitude although objective facts I bring. Total lack of child's attitude when instead of respecting the original route Jensen created a new route under the absolute ignorance and some rules that even he dosn't follow (how can you blaim others of drilling if you drill in your own routes?).
Can I go now to WOS and put a bolt or rivet in every drilled placement he and Smith made? Bathooks and batheads are ccepted in Yosemite?
Come on!
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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And don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Pelut. He has enough hair in his balls to defend himself if he wants, but it's really sad the absolute lack of critics and even ovation for his actions.
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raymond phule
climber
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Yes, mine it's the only child attitude although objective facts I bring
I don't think that you bring a lot of objective facts to the issue. You just shot all over the place and some things of what you write might be correct and interested but it is hard to find those when so much is just ridiculous or completely of topic.
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nah000
climber
canuckistan
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Rivet hanger: you're jumping the shark, man.
if you're going to troll you need to try and keep your assertions within the realm of plausibility.
posting a photo with a line of holes in a mostly hole free wall, where the holes are in a straight line and at regular distance apart and then claiming "your ignorance impeded you to realize that the holes you found were not drilled holes"?!?!? by this i'm presuming you're trying to say with a straight face that the straight line of holes was "natural"?!?!?!
hahaha. thanks for the entertainment.
errr, at least i hope your intent is to entertain.
'cause if you're not trolling and are rather mentally or emotionally stunted enough to believe the bullshit you're spewing well, then i might actually feel bad. i'd feel bad because i'm either laughing at someone who is a few bricks short of a load as they say, or maybe a twelve year old climbing fan of pelut's who hasn't been let down by his heroes yet.
regardless, i sincerely hope you're a bored american working the night shift on a mind numbing corporate job somewhere in the midwest, and are just trying to give yourself a few laughs at the expense of strangers.
'cause if you're really a spaniard, with a modicum of climbing experience and intelligence and you can't see through your own bullsh#t, i feel sorry for you. you've definitely got a tough row to hoe in this lifetime.
in case you are serious: while you might have a point about some of madbolter1's tactics, you completely undermine your own position, when you continue to blindly argue bullshit that can actually be smelt over the internet.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Thank you, nah000.
I wrote Bozeman but I could have written Knoxville...
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nah000
climber
canuckistan
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Rivet hanger wrote: "Thank you, nah000.
I wrote Bozeman but I could have written Knoxville..."
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. i haven't laughed this hard in a while.
i respectfully bow to your mastery of the dark arts.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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The ones on Harry Potter?
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nah000
climber
canuckistan
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hahaha.
you are seriously the hero we need but not the one we deserve...
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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RH: Can I go now to WOS and put a bolt or rivet in every drilled placement he and Smith made?
Now that would make for a particularly entertaining sequel to the movie.
I say go for it!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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instead of respecting the original route....
There IS no respecting the original "route," because there WAS no "original route." A line of drilled holes (regardless of what you put in them) is not a route.
This is the one and only point that matters in this whole discussion. Everything else is peripheral to this one, crucial point! And it is the one point you seem determined to never understand.
Oh, and (ROFL), I would URGE you to take a stab at WoS, since you seem so fixated on it. And, yes, PLEASE go ahead and fill all the unfilled holes you find... fill them with bolts, rivets, wooden wedges, lead-heads, or whatever you wish. Just let us know when you're gonna make the attempt, because I want to come meet you and video your effort. If you can make it up 60 feet (that's about 20 meters), I'll salute you. Seriously: 20 meters. Let's see what you've got. For all your TALK, let's see if you've got 20 meters of WoS in you.
Since we ALL know that you don't have it in you, let's get settled on the ONE and only point that matters: a line of drilled holes is NOT a route, is NOT respectable, is NOT A6+, is NOT worthy of any awards or money, and is NOT worth talking about any more.
I'm done.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Thank you for saying that. Given the differences we've had, I really appreciate that from you. All the best to you!
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 10, 2013 - 03:18am PT
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Richy, the difference between you and normal people is that only a sickminded does what you did...
It will be funnier to put a new route claiming A7 rating and wait your webpage report and laugh aloud at your comments about eurobashies and wood remains. I still doubt about the name of the route between "I see saw marks on the wall" or "Are bathooks and batheads holes to fill?"...
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 10, 2013 - 03:39am PT
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Rivet Hanger, it's over.
At this point all you're doing is making Richard look better for having such a rabid troll as yourself on his heels.
It's time to walk away before I reveal that you and I are actually the same poster.
But since I know you won't, in the above picture, which of the adorable baby swans are YOU?
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oct 10, 2013 - 04:03am PT
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An enjoyable write-up Crunch. A good synopsis, an enjoyable presentation of the history (including your own history), a thoughtful proposition for future behavior on the Towers. A few typos here and there.
Well written, thanks for this.
EDIT: Also, I have a pony Gak picture...
If you want me to post it...
Gak is back...
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notreallyanaidclimber
Trad climber
CO
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Oct 10, 2013 - 08:11am PT
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That is Crusher's 2013 AAJ article by the way.
Thanks for putting it up in your website Crusher, and thanks for all your great contributions to this discussion, which to me goes well well beyond the Fishers.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 10, 2013 - 10:05am PT
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From his American Alpine Journal, 2013.
Crusher -- "A new generation in Yosemite, including Walt Shipley, Steve Gerberding, and John Middendorf, rejected trenching."
Charlie Porter years before rejected trenching also ......
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 11, 2013 - 04:23am PT
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Thank you a lot Steve for the AAJ article. Very well written!
However, it's a little bit disappointing. I think you miss out some important things and insinuate other aspects that aren't exactly real, but as long as supertopo isn't the place to express'em, I won't. Nevertheless, one point that should be cleared since my point of view is the translation of Pelut's interview on Desnivel given the implications.
Altough my lack of deep knowledge of English language, the sentence Sí, "Intifada" para mi es la VÍA! should be translated as "Yeah!, "Intifada" for me is the ROUTE!". Translate it as the WAY (in the sense of the way to follow) isn't the sense of the sentence at all and may incline the reader to think a thing that isn't. Indeed, I think the sentence is out of context, since the question and the answer is as follows (and the knowledge about Castilian of the American aid-climbing community may be as limited as my English knowledge):
//¿Hay mucha diferencia entre esta vía y la que repetisteis el año pasado?
Sí, “Intifada” para mi es la ¡VIA! Es una línea brutal, genial, súper bien hallada. Una vía para disfrutar (siempre sin olvidar donde estas), una línea que sigue un sistema lógico de fisuras. Nuestra vía, a mi entender, es más pesada y dura. Para abrir un largo tardaba de 15 a 17 horas. Demasiado incluso para un fanático como yo.//
"¿Is there a lot of difference between this route and the one you repeated last year? Yes, "Intifada" for me is the ROUTE! It's an awsome, great line, really well found. A route to enjoy (without forgetting where you are), a line that follows a logic crack system. Our route, I think is busier and tougher. It took me from 15 to 17 hours to complete a pitch."
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Deekaid
climber
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Oct 11, 2013 - 10:56am PT
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It took me from 15 to 17 hours to complete a pitch."
Maybe because all that drilling takes so long?
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 11, 2013 - 11:41am PT
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the sentence Sí, "Intifada" para mi es la VÍA! should be translated as "Yeah!, "Intifada" for me is the ROUTE!". Translate it as the WAY (in the sense of the way to follow) isn't the sense of the sentence at all and may incline the reader to think a thing that isn't.
Thanks for the alternative translation, River Hanger.
I think it works both as "way" and as "route." The context suggests that Palmada admires Intifada as a climb (the line, the experience, the challenge, the route, but also he admires the style, the method the way that Intifada was established.
But maybe I have that wrong.
In the American Alpine Club Journal there was a very tight limit on number of words. The version I linked to I added the original wording (and a link to the Desnivel interview) specifically to allow anyone who could speak the original language to understand better what he said.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 11, 2013 - 11:46am PT
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"It took me from 15 to 17 hours to complete a pitch."
There it is;
It takes 15 to 17 hours to complete a pitch and then it's confirmed it's A6. (heavy sarcasm) :-)
Anyways ..... kinda funny and stupid.
And I'm stupid for even giving it any thought to begin with ...
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 11, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
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Here's an article from Barabbas (an online climbing store in Spain) by Palmada about Hot-Parad-Ice.
Hey, Rivet Hanger, what's MO+ mean (on the topo, first pitch)?
Also, maxima vibracion. "vibracion"? Is this some spanish or catalonian climbing slang?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 11, 2013 - 12:22pm PT
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... y entro en un estado de bloqueo mental...
Well, at least he was honest on that point.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 11, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
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No, MD+ comes from the classic alpinism rating used in Europe (sorry, don't know if you use it in the States). Originally from French TD (très difficile) translated as MD (molt difícil in Catalan and muy difícil in Castilian).
As he didn't know exactly how to rate the first pitch of Hot parad'ice since he repeated Weird Science after and trying not to awake the abnormal beast that dwells inside some individuals but at the same time as a deep sarcasm, he rated the pitch as MD+.
You can alse see the digital version of this magazine here: http://www.barrabes.com/actualidad/e_cuadernos/CT_64/flash.html
I disagree on your interpretation between way and route (I may be wrong having in account English isn't my mother language). For me are clearly different things and the context leaves that clear.
Since my point of view, although the tight limits on number of words in AAj, among others, I find really disappointing that you didn't even mentioned Pelut made the SA of Weird Science...
And to others, buy Jensen's book (yeah, that object made of paper with ink marks and few drawings inside) wings of steel and if you don't get asleep after the third page yuo'll find out how much took Smith (because he made the tougher pitches, btw!) to complete a pitch on that route...
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 11, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
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No, MD+ comes from the classic alpinism rating used in Europe (sorry, don't know if you use it in the States). Originally from French TD (très difficile) translated as MD (molt difícil in Catalan and muy difícil in Castilian).
As he didn't know exactly how to rate the first pitch of Hot parad'ice since he repeated Weird Science after and trying not to awake the abnormal beast that dwells inside some individuals but at the same time as a deep sarcasm, he rated the pitch as MD+
Pitch 1 (MD+) is A4.
Pitch 2 (A4+) is A3, maybe A3+. That's where the video if Pelut hammering a Pecker, like, 50 times, was taken.
Pitch 3 (A3) took me about 20 minutes. It's A1+.
Pitch 4 (A4+) is A3.
The rest is up and over the caprock. The usual annoying A1/5.9
We had it pretty easy. Pelut was careful to leave holes that were usable. And so many of them that we could pick and choose, ignore the more flared ones.
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Joshua Johnson
Boulder climber
Boulder
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Oct 11, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
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Mad Science pics?
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little Z
Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
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bump
Ricardo-Cristobal Marquez lives on!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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More like Gabriel García Márquez me thinks...One Hundred Holes of Solitude.
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