locker
Social climber
CO
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May 17, 2012 - 08:24am PT
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"...a permitting system..."...
I can't imagine many would actually participate in a permitting system...
So you find a new route you want to do...
You fill out all the proper forms and such...
hand them in and WAIT for "Approval"...
Three years later...
Uh...
I for one am glad that there is no permitting system in place...
;-)
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ana dablam
climber
mother earth
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May 17, 2012 - 08:49am PT
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Socal bolter heard from bernadette
3) They have asked that no actions be taken now. They are reviewing possible actions and if any are to be taken they will occur in the Fall."
That is what is scary.
The NPS does act sometimes, just look at ryan ranch.
What if bolting becomes a pet peeve of someone in charge @ JTNP
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ana dablam
climber
mother earth
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May 17, 2012 - 08:51am PT
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Thats the deal locker -- you get it.
LEts say this straw breaks the camel and the park starts to implement and enforce a permit system.
Babytool (tm) wants to see your papers....you don't got em for the route you just bolted.
Banned for life.
Dont think it can happen? how many sport climbs are up on San Jac in the state park? Climbed at Auburn lately?
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FreeCoffee
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
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A permit system for bolting in the wilderness is in place. The JTNP website, the park's climbing brochure, and Vogel's JT West all instruct you to call the special use office for a permit.
Step 1: Call the Special Use Office 760-367-5545
Step 2: Fill out a Special Use Application: http://www.nps.gov/jotr/parkmgmt/upload/specialuse.pdf
Yes, it is a generic form.
Step 3: The special use office will call you for details. Then the application will be passed on to the climbing ranger for a field visit.
Step 4: After the field visit is complete, the application must pass the approval of all the department heads "squad". Squad meets on a weekly basis. If deemed necessary a NEPA evaluation may take place (National Environment and Planning Agency). Which basically is a full-range of questions addressing every possible impact a new route may have on the park.
Step 5: The superintendent has the final say and must approve the new route.
According to the current Special Use Permit person - John - and the former SUP - Don Roberts (who worked that position for over a decade) No one has ever called to inquire about a wilderness bolting permit. So, this process has never been tested.
However, as we all know, new bolting is happening in JT's wilderness. Despite Randy Vogel's JT West and Robert Miramonte's new guidebooks stating, "vogel p.25 -- it is currently not permitted by the park to place new bolt/fixed anchors in designated wilderness areas." & "miramontes p.16 -- placing additional bolts on new or established routes is illegal."
I will point out again, the bolting at the Underground Chasm is minor compared to the 9 steps that were chiseled into the approach. But those 9 steps are bringing lots of issues to the table.
I appreciate all of your feedback - and I want to continue an open discussion.
In my email to Louie Anderson, I said, "The best thing anyone can do right now - is to let other climbers know that this is unacceptable behavior in a national park, and even more so in designated wilderness."
Thanks again to Todd and his anonymous crew who went out to clean up at the Chasm. Really appreciate it.
Bernadette Regan
JT Climbing Ranger
bernadette_regan@nps.gov
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fattrad
Mountain climber
GOP Convention
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May 18, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
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FreeCoffee,
To this former LEO observer, it seems the approval process would likely take two years for any route. Several on ST have stated that they filed the necessary paperwork and never heard a response, could this be the infamous "government paperwork" problem??????
Let me know if you need help with the chippers/cutters, I can be sworn in as an LEO in fifteen minutes.
TheTool
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 18, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
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Thanks or posting that information Bernadette. One concern about wilderness bolt permits is the requirement of an Environmental Impact Assessment, which could be required pursuant to a NEPA review. If that is the case a bolting permit could take years to get.
Does the park make an informal review of the permit request and only require a NEPA review if deemed appropriate? Would a "garden variety" bolt permit request need a NEPA review? Are there particular parameters which would require a NEPA review?
I read the Superintendents Compendium, I had no idea that Zombie Woof was off limits to all climbing and bouldering. I was shocked learn that snowmobiling is not allowed in the park.
A list of off limits climbs is listed below.
Pictograph Boulder (Township 1 South Range 8 East, Section 36) (beginning at the northwest
corner, 583829E x 3767204N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 583845E x
3767204N; thence southerly to 583845E x 3767190N; thence westerly to 583829E x 3767190N;
thence northerly to the point of the beginning).
Energy Crisis Route (Little Hunk Formation) (Township 2 South Range 8 East, Section 4)
(beginning at the northwest corner, 578242E x 3765552N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence
easterly to 578259E x 3765552N; thence southerly to 578259E x 3765537N; thence westerly to
578242E x 3765537N; thence northerly to the point of the beginning).
Schwarzenegger Wall Route (north end of Rockwork Rock) (Township 2 South Range 8 East,
Section 4) (beginning at the northwest corner, 578510E x 3766002N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83));
thence easterly to 578526E x 3766002N; thence southerly to 578526E x 3765988N; thence
westerly to 578510E x 3765988N; thence northerly to the point of the beginning).
Shindig Route (Indian Cave Boulder) (Township 2 South Range 8 East, Section 8) (beginning at
the northwest corner, 577004E x 3764122N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to
577020E x 3764122N; thence southerly to 577020E x 3764108N; thence westerly to 577004E x
3764108N; thence northerly to the point of the beginning).
Lonely Stones Area #3 (Township 1 South Range 7 East, Section 16 & 15) (beginning at the
northwest corner, 569349E x 3771711N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 569358E x
3771711N; thence southerly to 569358E x 3771701N; thence westerly to 569349E x 3771701N;
thence northerly to the point of the beginning).
The Shipwreck (Township 2 South Range 8 East, Section 8) (beginning at the northwest corner,
576926E x 3763566N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 576950E x 3763566N; thence
southerly to 576950E x 3763541N; thence westerly to 576926E x 3763541N; thence northerly to
the point of the beginning).
Indian Wave area (incorporates previous closures at Chicken Wing, Heavy Metal, and Hell Flake)
(Township 2 South Range 8 East, Section 4) (beginning at the northwest corner, 579284E x
3765501N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 579345E x 3765468N; thence southerly
to 579287E x 3765363N; thence westerly to 579226E x 3765397N; thence northerly to the point of
the beginning).
Zombie Woof (Township 2 South Range 8 East, Section 8) (beginning at the northwest corner,
576396E x 3763680N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 576415E x 3763680N; thence
southerly to 576415E x 3763658N; thence westerly to 576396E x 3763658N; thence northerly to
the point of the beginning).
Maverick Boulder (Township 2 South Range 9 East, Section 23) (beginning at the northwest
corner, 591251E x 3760665N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 591274E x
3760665N; thence southerly to 591274E x 3760644N; thence westerly to 591251E x 3760644N;
thence northerly to the point of the beginning).
Wormholes (Township 1 South Range 8 East, Section 25) (beginning at the northwest corner,
582868E x 3769167N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 582884E x 3769167N; thence
southerly to 582884E x 3769149N; thence westerly to 582868E x 3769149N; thence northerly to
the point of the beginning).
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toadgas
Trad climber
los angeles
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May 18, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
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-
Let me know if you need help with the chippers/cutters, I can be sworn in as an LEO in fifteen minutes
radness! all guns blazing!
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coz
Mountain climber
Northern surly
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May 18, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
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Russ, Bully Boy...?
Never saw u at any meeting protecting any climbing access ever...
I suggest anyone who wants to work hand in hand with land manager do so, it could serve as an education, if u would be so humble.
And hopefully give u a better grip on the real situation.
Otherwise stand down, and let those who really are working hard to protect ur rights not be troubled by ur ignorant rants.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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May 18, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
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If you were a crafty NEPA mgr for the NPS, you'd call putting in new route bolts "Installation of navigation aids" and CATEX the route permits.
Replacing old bolts is clearly a CATEX event under "Replacement in kind of minor structures and facilities with little or no change in location, capacity, or appearance..."
Otherwise you write one programmatic EA (let's face it, bolting routes will never reach the threshhold for significance under NEPA) for the permitting program and then you're not conducting NEPA/EIAP work everytime a permit app comes in.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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May 20, 2012 - 07:58am PT
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"Stand down".... "Bully boy"....again? Sheesh. Get some new lines Coz. Your whole deal is beyond tiresome.
As a suspected chipper (not by me), Josh hold gluer and convicted illegal bolter, this is one you might want to sit out Coz.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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May 20, 2012 - 09:12am PT
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Well said.
Peace
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Ron Anderson
Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
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May 20, 2012 - 09:18am PT
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just a wild guess, but im thinking this whole "bolting process" by the park service has fell upon deaf ears? Bosches were a wee noisy the last time i fired one up..
edit: deaf ears all the way around---climbers still bolting the crap out of things?,, park service not hearing one rattattattatttat from a bosch?
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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May 20, 2012 - 11:03am PT
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How many routes are there in Josh now? Six Hundred Gazillion? Does Josh really, really need still MORE routes? Will there every arrive a day when folks come to agree that a route that gets bolted, gets done once, and then never gets done again -- or maybe sees a small handful of ascents over the next 20 years -- was a route maybe not worth bolting for?
Just some rhetorical questions. Food for thought.
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khanom
Trad climber
The Dessert
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May 20, 2012 - 11:25am PT
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Will there every arrive a day when folks come to agree that a route that gets bolted, gets done once, and then never gets done again...
Already there.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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May 20, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
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Apparently not.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 20, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
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And maybe egos will become passè...
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khanom
Trad climber
The Dessert
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May 20, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
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Woops, sorry bvb, I mis-read your comment and left off the essential "...was a route maybe not worth bolting for?"
I meant of course that there are many many routes that get put up and forgotten, but we all know that, eh.
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locker
Gym climber
DUH!!!...
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May 25, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
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Let's hope a couple to a few douchebags haven't screwed things up to the point that other climbers not involved get fuked over somehow...
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xx--J-Tree Trad Master--xx
Gym climber
Las Vegas
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May 28, 2012 - 12:55am PT
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I think there should be a permit system for impatient people waiting for their turn on Walk on the Wild Side...... BTW who would bolt a choss pile like that anyway?????
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