Joshua Tree Ethics

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Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 13, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
Since I first started climbing out at Josh in 1971, the population has expanded in both directions: the top end folk have kept getting better while the noob population has gotten every more frightened, lightweight and disconnected from any sense of climbing history and values.

On one hand we have visitors free soloing up a storm and flashing the testpieces in no time, while a precious few hackers get to chipping, and generally trash the place. It may be that those causing the problem simply don't know any better, having no association to the past. If it's the case that the harm is being done by people in the know, who are simply acting like idiots and poltroons, then it's time to get rope and look for a tall tree.

JL
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Mar 13, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
The talk about "discussing this off line" was obviously NOT what the OP had in mind, eh?

The proverbial "cat is out of the bag" now, and what Locker has stated is the case with many of us here. We all DO give a schitt about what's happened to Joshua Tree, and many of us can become quite verbal about these things.

If Bernadette were NOT sending a message, then I don't really understand the reason behind it.
WBraun

climber
Mar 13, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
I remember years ago there were some French guys bouldering and caking every stupid little edge with tons of rosin powder.

These particular wankers couldn't boulder worth the sh!t to begin with.

It was obscene the amount of rosin they were smearing into the edges screwing up the whole place.

I caught up with these guys one day and told them to knock off this rosin sh!t as it's not needed nor wanted because of the damage it was causing.

The stuff lasted years and made the holds slick as sh!t.

They told me to fuk off.

I came back a few minutes later with several people and we verbally laid it into them and they stopped.

Thus a thread like this is important because the word will get out to offenders .....
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Mar 13, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
Note on the C4 Bulletin board bitd;

"Stop using rosin on the boulder circuit, or you will be encircled in violence!
Especially the french!"
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Mar 13, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
...If it's the case that the harm is being done by people in the know, who are simply acting like idiots and poltroons, then it's time to get rope and look for a tall tree...

JL

I suspect that is also an unauthorized use of Joshua Trees.

Curt
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Mar 13, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
Yes- it is indeed a violation to climb the Joshua trees BTW

JL: ...the top end folk have kept getting better while the noob population has gotten every more frightened, lightweight and disconnected from any sense of climbing history and values.

Oy- that quote reminded me of a conversation overheard just this last weekend (not at JT). Some loud-mouthed girl talked out her ass endlessly to her group for close to an hour. I was pretty annoyed and I am not easily annoyed.

At one point she said something to the effect of: "it's stupid they don't just rap bolt things and make them safe... this isn't like the old days where people had to do all that scary stuff" All but 1 in her posse seemed to agree. *(head palm)*

^^^The poster children for that "frightened lightweight disconnection" that John speaks about. They can clip their way up 5.12-hard so they think they are entitled to alter the entire climbing universe, to make it more convenient for their send.

No sense of history or values indeed.

I don't know what went down out at JT that set Bernadette off. Clearly it was something obvious and unacceptable. I'm happy to hear some locals took steps to rectify. I personally love doing restoration work and wish I lived closer.

There's 1000's of routes out there to choose from that required little to no cleaning, chipping or gardening. I'm happy to spend the rest of my climbing life exploring them.

Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Mar 13, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
Is it the same guys who put the bolt back on Double Cross?
That entry move is unsafe and scary with out a bolt there.
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Mar 13, 2012 - 10:28pm PT
-

They can clip their way up 5.12-hard so they think they are entitled to alter the entire climbing universe, to make it more convenient for their send.

+1

and that goes for everybody! meaning...there is a time to leave the falcons and those yellow-assed FROGS alone...find another cliff if it aint convenient for "your send"

-
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Mar 13, 2012 - 11:28pm PT
Someday all the bolts on all those old classics will fall right off after we have been dead and gone for years, and then a few years later all the retro-bolts will fall off too.


The world is most DEF ending.
FreeCoffee

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 14, 2012 - 08:34am PT
The area of concern is under investigation. When the investigation is complete, I will be permitted to share more details. Thank you all for the discussion and especially to those who facilitated it.

If my OP came off as threatening, I apologize. When I heard of the damage - at this particular place - I was affected on a personal level. Your posts show that I am not the only one who feels passionate about keeping JT wild. I feel fortunate to be in a position to communicate with all interested parties.

Bytheway, Joshua Tree National Park has not counted bolts since Eric Murdoch's study in 2004.
http://www.metla.fi/julkaisut/workingpapers/2004/mwp002-18.pdf

Thank you Khanom for advertising the service project on March 24. We'll be planting about 200 native plants along the swath of old road near the Old Woman and Intersection Rock; as well as, delineating an access trail. The scar can easily be seen from the top of Double Cross, careful on the approach to that -- the bodies are really piling up.

Friends of Josh, AAC, and Threshhold Climbing Gym are among the volunteers signed up for the project. Saturday evening, Damon Corso is giving a slideshow in Joshua Tree proper -- this event is open for everyone, even if you don't have a chance to get your hands dirty during the day.

Be well,

Bernadette Regan
Climber
JT Climbing Ranger
locker

Social climber
CO
Mar 14, 2012 - 08:49am PT

"When I heard of the damage -at this particular place - I was affected on a personal level. Your posts show that I am not the only one who feels passionate about keeping JT wild."...


;-)






Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Mar 14, 2012 - 09:31am PT
thanks to bernadette for the follow-up post. doesn't sound like they're about to close the park to climbing.

and thanks to largo and maid skippian for helping to make the point i was trying to make. there's a generation gap in climbing. there are lots who are scared to death of a trad rack. get out there and engage the youngstas.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Mar 14, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
Bernadette-

If I were not a climber, I would still feel protective of all the rest of the unique environment of the High Desert in addition to the rocks. I really have a special place in my heart for Joshua Tree.

But as a very trad climber, I'm personally offended by those defacing the rocks by chipping, aggressive brushing, gardening, and making a general mess of things. As one ages, the appeal of the high Alpine routes tends to fade along with a general decline in one's physical abilities. Fortunately Joshua Tree lengthens one's active climbng lifespan significantly. Does it bother me that I can no longer send a 5.10d? Yes, it does, but it also doesn't stop me from participating in the activity.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Mar 14, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
Tony Bird: this is off the direct topic, but totally spot on:

"there's a generation gap in climbing. there are lots who are scared to death of a trad rack. get out there and engage the youngsters."

This is probably the key issue for the future of climbing as we know it. It's worthy of it's own thread. Well said.
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Mar 14, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
-

thank god we got berndette as Ranger and not some Nazi asshat fool

-
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Mar 14, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
At one point she said something to the effect of: "it's stupid they don't just rap bolt things and make them safe... this isn't like the old days where people had to do all that scary stuff" All but 1 in her posse seemed to agree.

Sounds reasonable to me. I don't agree but it still sounds reasonable.

Failing to understand someone else's point of view is the first step in a civil war. If you cannot see where they are coming from or why they think that stuff then you will fail to have any useful communications with them. You will also fail if you assume that you are right in a matter that has no physical proof to it and is only based on opinion.

Ignoring the stupid response of "That's the way it's always been done" or the response of "that's the way I like it", answer these questions:

* Why does a climb need to be dangerous?

* Why are bolts bad?

* Why are people with a different point of view always wrong if they are young or inexperienced regardless of their point of view?

I don't take their point of view. I just don't see it as being inherently wrong. It is certainly not traditional to grid bolts things but why are climbers, who should be rebels and dirtbags, so into tradition and so into following the rules set forth by a bunch of old guys that probably did things the old way because they had no choice.

Open your minds or be run out of town by a bunch of youngin's.

Dave
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Mar 14, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
^^^

Dave makes some very profound points up there.

But, as far back as I can remember, like 1976 or so, there has always been this "civil war" between the purists and the people who basically do as they see fit.

Fortunately, the govt entities tend to side with the purists, as far as the "go easy on the bolts" issue.

I don't see a point in time where there will not be retro-bolts, and no persons willing to crowbar those retro-bolts.

Bring some camo epoxy to fill in the holes.

And give the gym climbers a warm bottle to help them sleep at night.

-
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev.
Mar 14, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
that arguement falls flat when considering rock IS NOT a renewable resource and there is only so much of it at any given locale. Even the NPS 2004 report points to the finite...
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Mar 14, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
-


I see "da Brim" catching on with today's young climbers.


-
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 14, 2012 - 04:05pm PT

At one point she said something to the effect of: "it's stupid they don't just rap bolt things and make them safe... this isn't like the old days where people had to do all that scary stuff" All but 1 in her posse seemed to agree.

Sounds reasonable to me. I don't agree but it still sounds reasonable.

Failing to understand someone else's point of view is the first step in a civil war. If you cannot see where they are coming from or why they think that stuff then you will fail to have any useful communications with them. You will also fail if you assume that you are right in a matter that has no physical proof to it and is only based on opinion.

Ignoring the stupid response of "That's the way it's always been done" or the response of "that's the way I like it", answer these questions:

* Why does a climb need to be dangerous?

* Why are bolts bad?

* Why are people with a different point of view always wrong if they are young or inexperienced regardless of their point of view?

I don't take their point of view. I just don't see it as being inherently wrong. It is certainly not traditional to grid bolts things but why are climbers, who should be rebels and dirtbags, so into tradition and so into following the rules set forth by a bunch of old guys that probably did things the old way because they had no choice.

Open your minds or be run out of town by a bunch of youngin's.

Dave


I don't hear "a bunch of old guys" saying there is no reason or purpose for sport climbing. But the converse is also true because climbing does have a history, and only in the last twenty years has the "no risk" mindset been an option.

The answers to your questions are are amply provided not by "opinion," as though climbing ethics are merely ephemeral, subjective whims, rather by the traditions of rock climbing reaching back for over 100 years. These were influenced by the deep ecology movement and athletics, which never held out the promise that you could get something for nothing.

People can surely rewrite climbing traditions but they cannot negate the right of traditional climbs and climbing areas to exist in the first instance. So while the "youngin's" have a right to do as they please, they have no right to reengineer existing routes in order to curry the favor of manifest chickenshits who believe that only duffers are daft enough to brook risk, commitment and a sporting ethic for climbing.


JL
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