Alex Honnold come out of the closet...

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BDoog

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 6, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
...as an atheist. Here's the project:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/802369111/a-better-life

Click to donate...or flame on below.


grover

climber
Northern Mexico
Mar 6, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
popcorn popping.....

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 6, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
Looks like an interesting project. Wonder why the "writer" needs 100 grand to get it going?

JL
BDoog

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
Who do you think made the mountains you climb?
~ Joseph Bryde

:-P
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Mar 6, 2012 - 12:27pm PT
Define "atheist".
BDoog

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
Define "is".
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Mar 6, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
^^^

that explains a LOT

Honnold is Satan's tool
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 6, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
No...no...no.... Satan is one of the tools in the tool-box of the Church. An other of their tools is God. Honnold is his own tool.
Gene

climber
Mar 6, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
I thought there were no atheists in foxholes or on unroped 5.12s 2,000 feet above the deck. An atheist maybe, but the lad has huge amounts of faith.

g
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 6, 2012 - 12:55pm PT
That's my lad Alex, proud of you, just don't run for political office in this country- we are stuck in the Middle Ages.
surfstar

climber
Santa Barbara, CA
Mar 6, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
WTF?

I should give you money for a book that tells 'believers' that athiests are leading happy lives despite non-belief?

I guess its like passing around a collection basket that funds missionaries.

How much do I have to pledge to get a T-shirt that says "I'm not saving myself and I'm okay with that."?

Some of the internet fund raising now-a-days would shame homeless beggers.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Mar 6, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
I too, lead a happy life...
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 6, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
The video link in there has Pat Slobertson saying "There is no fellowship between an atheist and someone who's a believer."

I beg to differ Pat. I have many friends who are people of faith who I have significant relationships with. I respect them for reasons other than their belief system and they have the maturity to do the same for me.

I don't discount or ignore the historical or current need for spirituality or belief for many people. But this idea that we need "your" version of spirituality or God running the show is past.
Gene

climber
Mar 6, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
Channeling Survival…

The video link in there has Pat Slobertson saying "There is no fellowship between an atheist and someone who's a believer."

I beg to differ Pat. I have many friends who are atheists who I have significant relationships with. I respect them for reasons other than their belief system and they have the maturity to do the same for me.

g
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Mar 6, 2012 - 01:27pm PT
Hey, Pat Robertson just said that prayers could have stopped those tornadoes in the Midwest.
Seriously, this guy does more harm to Christianity than all the atheists in the world combined.

Gene

climber
Mar 6, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
The Reverend Pastor Robertson is an oxymoron.

g
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 6, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
Every serious inquiry into the efficacy of prayer has come up with zilch. Prayer cannot be shown to have the slightest effect on the outcome of events with the possible exception of a few placebo cases.
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Mar 6, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
Yeah so science hasn't been able to prove there is any scientific value in prayer, shocker.

The power of prayer is individual and for some people, it provides something for them that can't be quantified. And the absolute opposite for others.

It's best to just leave it at that because when you start pushing your beliefs that prayer is bogus, you're doing the exact same thing as Bible thumpers telling you you gotta find Jezuz or you're gonna burn in hell.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 6, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
Gene Rocks.
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Mar 6, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
Prayer cannot be shown to have the slightest effect on the outcome of events with the possible exception of a few placebo cases.


...a contradictory statement.

Sugar pills can be effective!

Like worthless "psychological protection" below a difficult climbing move.

Tell an unknowing patient his sugar pills are powerful medicine and observe the results.
WBraun

climber
Mar 6, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
come out of the closet...

Huh? Everyone is gay?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Mar 6, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
when you start pushing your beliefs that prayer is bogus, you're doing the exact same thing as Bible thumpers telling you you gotta find Jezuz or you're gonna burn in hell.

utter nonsense
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Mar 6, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
when you start pushing your beliefs that the earth revolves around the sun, you're doing the exact same thing as the Pope's cardinals telling you the sun revolves around the earth.

utter nonsense, too
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 6, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
It's funny that someone would tell the guy not in the closet to come out.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 6, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
I think he meant to say comes instead of come. You can't change anything on a thread title.
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Mar 6, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
-

honnolds a gay atheist
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Mar 6, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
Cool -- I mean Alex was never in the closet.
The man wasn't hiding is believes -- & isn't using religion to hide behind.
BDoog

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
I think he meant to say comes instead of come. You can't change anything on a thread title.

Correct. Typo on the original post.

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 6, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
his facebook page = lol...

"Alex, it's not too late, let the lord save you! Let him show you the light! It doesn't have to end here."

"I hope you don't kill yourself before you find out how wrong you are, otherwise, won't you be surprised when you meet your maker face-to-face. I'm praying for you to see the light. This explains a lot about why you're out there risking your life, you don't think there's anything to live for but the last thrill. I feel sympathy for your family and friends, you and they deserve better."

Seriously, how f*cked up is that one? How wrong you are? Seriously?

Santorum voter.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 6, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
Let them pray, let them pray, let them pray.....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Mar 6, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
from his wiki page,
When asked about his religious or spiritual views, he described himself as a "militant atheist."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Honnold

cool, times are changing

(sam) harris and (alex) honnold, 2020

.....

Santorum voter.

lol
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 6, 2012 - 02:24pm PT
In the 60's if you fought for civil rights you had to be militant. Today, if you are an athiest you are forced to be, or accused of, being militant...but, yes, the times they are a changing.
Silver

Big Wall climber
Nor Nev
Mar 6, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
All I know is

















































The guy can climb like no one I have ever seen.



Russ n Werner there's a cute couple.


Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 6, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
In one of the very early climbing media interviews with Honnold, years ago, he said

"I’ve been reading a bunch of god-hating books recently. The Natural History of Religion, which attacks organized religion. This guy I was traveling with had some and now I’m on a kick. ... Um, I mean, I hope you’re not really into religion or anything."

BDoog

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
(sam) harris and (alex) honnold, 2020

Two very inspiring people.
BDoog

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2012 - 02:31pm PT
In the 60's if you fought for civil rights you had to be militant. Today, if you are an athiest you are forced to be, or accused of, being militant...but, yes, the times they are a changing.

A militant atheist might bombard you with reason, a militant theist might bombard you with...a Boeing 737
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Mar 6, 2012 - 02:31pm PT
-


FACT: Honnold's gonna die


...just like we all will, sooner or later
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 6, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
A militant atheist might bombard you with reason, a militant theist might bombard you with...a Boeing 737

Oh-LOL! Snackbar!

Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Mar 6, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
He is just a kid - leave him alone.
He's at the stage that any intelligent, non-authoritarian, human being reaches.
The rebellion against the authority, hypocrisy and lies of religious indoctrination.

It starts to get a little more complicated when you are surrounded all day by folks whose loved ones have died or are dying.

My wonderful, little, sensitive 8 year old daughter brought me a poem she had written yesterday. It was a page long and rhymed perfectly and was really beautiful. It was about her love for god and Jesus.

The obvious of all this is apparent to anyone but the most programmed cultests.
But all the reasons and human dynamics are where it gets, interesting, complex and it is definitely not back and white.

Imagine your daughter dying or you mother talking about how she is looking forward to seeing your dad in Heaven.
Imagine what you would say in these situations.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Mar 6, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
Every serious inquiry into the efficacy of prayer has come up with zilch. Prayer cannot be shown to have the slightest effect on the outcome of events with the possible exception of a few placebo cases.

I prayed for LEB to be banned.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Mar 6, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
All the reasons and human dynamics are where it here interesting, complex and it is definitely not back and white.

Exactly. When the polar opposites dismiss one another they do so at the cost of the human truth.

DMT
WBraun

climber
Mar 6, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
Riley's got it right .....
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Mar 6, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
-

in fact, you may have a lot more to lose by NOT believing.

just say a few simple prayers, accept a Saviour, and you may enjoy eternal life.

BUT...

reject the above, and you might risk damnation. Billions of years of standing waist-deep in molten white-hot sulphur, while having invisible demons constantly poke you with sharp, pointy pitchforks, while they also devour your slowly-rotting flesh, one tiny bite after another.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 6, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
human truth...so elusive, so elusive.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 6, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
I think it's more or less the person you are on this world that makes you what you are. Not where you're sent after you pass.


"I'm hard,
Jehovah said i was born in the pearly gates f*#k him,
I didn't wanna go to heaven anyway
but my momma had me on my knees with my hands gripped,
talkin about some praise the lord shit"
Urizen

Ice climber
Berkeley, CA
Mar 6, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
Take a look at the stated career credentials of the people scheduled to appear in the book. To me, the equation of "blogger" and "meaningful life" is about as plausible as the power of prayer.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 6, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
define "is"

That's an easy one...

"GOD "IS" love" 1 John 4:8

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." - Revelation 1:8

"God is..."

Hebrews 12:29, 1 Corinthians 1:9,25,30 3:17, 4:20, 14:25,33, Psalm 7:11, 10:4, 14:5, 33:12, 46:1,5, 47:5,7, 48:3,14, 50:6, 54:4, 56:9, 59:9,17 62:7,8 68:15,20, 73:1,26, 74:12, 75:7, 84:11, 89:7, 94:22, 99:9, 115:3, 118:27, 144:15, Deuteronomy 3:24, 4:7,24,31, 6:4,15, 7:21, 10:17, 20:4, 33:27, 2 Cor 1:18, Romans 1:9,18,19, 2:2,24, 5:5, 6:23, 11:23, 14:17, 1 Sam 4:7,22, 10:7, 2Sam 22:33, Galatians 3:20, Job 27:3, 31:2, 33:12, 36:5,26, 37:22, 1 John 1:5, 3:20,3:33, 4:16, 5:9, Matthew 12:28, Philippians 1:8, 3:19, Proverbs 30:5, 1Thessalonians 2:5, 1 Timothy 4:4, 1 Chronicles 17:2, Acts 10:34, 28:28, Hebrews 13:16, Ephesians 4:24, Galatians 6:7, Genesis 20:11, 21:22, 31:50, 41:28, Mark 1:15, 12:29, John 6:33, 13:31, Luke 7:28, 10:9,11, 11:20, 16:16, 17:21, 21:31, 2 Timothy 2:9, Matthew 3:9, 22:32, Nahum 1:2, 2 Kings 8:7, Isaiah 8:10, 12:2, Exodus 20:20, Jeremiah 3:23, Daniel 2:47, Hebrews 6:10,11:16, Joshua 1:9, 23:3, Leviticus 21:12, Ecclesiates 5:2, Daniel 9:14, Numbers 6:7,23:19,21...etc.,

"God IS greater than man." Job 33:12



‎"For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar" (Romans 3:3,4). Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Author of all absolutes, Moral, Material, and Mathematical. Do the math: 2+2=4. Anything else is a lie."

"It really is that simple isn't it?"


"It's really that clear cut! The equations that govern our universe are not simple at all. In fact, they require the mind of an omniscient God, and the power of an omnipotent God. The singular God who has thus identified Himself in creation and salvation is the Lord Jesus Christ. PERIOD. What at Savior! He is Lord of all!"
KlimbIn

climber
Mar 6, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
BUT...

reject the above, and you might risk damnation. Billions of years of standing waist-deep in molten white-hot sulphur, while having invisible demons constantly poke you with sharp, pointy pitchforks, while they also devour your slowly-rotting flesh, one tiny bite after another.

I normally don't join in to these ridiculous conversations BUT THIS, this quote, how can one hold this sort of idea/belief? it's beyond comprehension.
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Mar 6, 2012 - 03:26pm PT
^^^

while you stand waist-deep in molten white-hot sulphur, you ALSO must wear "da Brim" sun-protection hat!
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Mar 6, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
There's a caveat to Pascal's Wager:

God knows if you really mean it!
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Mar 6, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
^^^

THAT means that Pascal is being poked by demons while wearing "da Brim"
dave

climber
Earth
Mar 6, 2012 - 03:30pm PT
I am lord of all! I 'is' lord of all! I was lord of all! I be lord of all! I is always gonna be lord of all! ( I think that covers past present and future)

You can donate to my cause on Pay pal, the virtual offering bowl, I will deliver you from sin and deliver myself to a killer crag of my liking!

Oh ya and the mountains I climb, they were created by geological processes!
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 6, 2012 - 03:30pm PT
Exactly, it's beyond you Klimbin...that's why it makes no sense to you.

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints” (1st Corinthians 14:33).

The Bible is NOT supposed to make sense to unbelievers... “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are FOOLISHNESS UNTO HIM: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1st Corinthians 2:14).

Isn't this what you just said Klimbin? if it's not then it sounds really really close.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 6, 2012 - 03:35pm PT
I'm done, see ya!
dave

climber
Earth
Mar 6, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
UH here I fixed your typos truth dweller

"For dave is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all crags of the saints” (1st Corinthians 14:33).

The Bible is NOT supposed to make sense to unbelievers... “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of dave: for they are FOOLISHNESS UNTO HIM: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1st Corinthians 2:14).

Carry on
gonzo chemist

climber
Fort Collins, CO
Mar 6, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
"Billions of years of standing waist-deep in molten white-hot sulphur, while having invisible demons constantly poke you with sharp, pointy pitchforks, while they also devour your slowly-rotting flesh, one tiny bite after another."


bring it on, bitchez!
Gene

climber
Mar 6, 2012 - 03:48pm PT
"Billions of years of standing waist-deep in molten white-hot sulphur, while having invisible demons constantly poke you with sharp, pointy pitchforks, while they also devour your slowly-rotting flesh, one tiny bite after another."

Sounds like a typical day in my first marriage!

g
Slabby D

Trad climber
B'ham WA
Mar 6, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
Some might view Alex Honnolds exploits as as perfect example of why one should try and foster a well developed relationship with "god".

No doubt he feels an intense and profound sense of connection to the everything during and after his solos ( I know I do and I use a rope!) but look at what he has to do and risk to achieve that.

I think many people out there develop their own sense of connection to the universe through the divine. There's nothing wrong with that and that's where I think many of these modern day atheists get it so wrong.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Mar 6, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
If religion is all about peace and righteousness, why is it the basis for most conflict?

Riddle me that.

I'll take science, please.
nutjob

Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
Mar 6, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
This started off as a simply-scoped short answer, but morphed into a stream of consciousness

Brandon, here's the short "world according to nutjob" version: People have a deep emotional need to feel accepted, to feel comforted, to feel taken care of. Religion is an institutionalized way to meet these basic human emotional needs, to satisfy what is not otherwise met through one's own beliefs and personal industry, one's family, work, or society. It creates a shared belief system to define a group that members are a part of, and the foundational beliefs provide comfort and a sense that someone else will provide for their wellbeing (spiritually if not physically). But some or many people in any large human organization will seek personal gain and use others' emotional needs to further their own objectives (e.g. money/power/control/pleasure).

If these belief systems take the easy route of excluding others to make the members feel accepted, then the very existence of a different set of beliefs that purports to be the truth triggers a life-or-death response. Even if a monoculture of the religon could be established, there would be off-shoots that reflect individual differences and preferences, and these would then be polarized into conflict because each system demands that it be the only right one. Judaism/christianity, sunni/shia, catholic/protestant, etc.

But now consider all these religious systems coexisting in a kind of game theory with different strategies running in parallel. Who do you think is going to become more prevalent in the world... those who say make lots of babies and go convert the world, or those who say "just hang out in harmony"?

So as a species, we are doomed to religious conflict until we can enforce a ban on religions that create identity by excluding others.

But by definition a group is a collection that is distinguished from others. So to avoid religious conflict we have to take away groups? What about that fundamental human need to feel a part of something?

So we help people feel a part of one big connected unified harmonious world, problem solved? Except for the human management of this organization, the inevitable power struggles and interpretations of what is the right way to handle things. And then you get splinter groups and different sects and we're back where we started.

Sometimes I wish I was a pot smoker. This would be a good time to take a hit and look out from a nice belay ledge and focus on simpler things like how cool the top of a sparrow looks.

ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Mar 6, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
citibank execs gonna drop him, he's toxic
steveA

Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Mar 6, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
Nutjob-- NICE!
jstan

climber
Mar 6, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
BDoog appears to be a new avatar.

You know not what you do.

Search on "religion vs. science"

Consider deleting your OP so as to give Alex a break.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Mar 6, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
I apologize for helping to further the crap on this thread.

Honnold is his own person.

Who the hell are we to critique his every movement?

He climbs well and lives his life however he likes. That's freedom.

Leave it at that, all the god sh#t is just that, sh#t.

Religion is a personal issue and our opining should not be written in Honnolds context.

Don't use someone else's story to propagate your opinions.

Climb on bro.

WBraun

climber
Mar 6, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
That's it now everybody git back in that closet.

Don't be comin out now .....
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 6, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
Alex clearly indicated by his inclusion of his name that he wanted to do "missionary" work.
Gene

climber
Mar 6, 2012 - 04:33pm PT
Alex clearly indicated by his inclusion of his name that he wanted to do "missionary" work.


We can only respect that as an acceptable and common position and wish him well.

g
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Mar 6, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
I think many people out there develop their own sense of connection to the universe through the divine. There's nothing wrong with that and that's where I think many of these modern day atheists get it so wrong.

 You can learn about your true connection to the universe through science or science education.

 Through the divine (the higher powers) is one thing; through the ancient deity Jehovah, God of Moses and modern Abrahamics (Christians to Muslims to Jews) is quite another.

 The modern day atheists get it wrong only in foiling themselves against theism. -When you grew up enough to determine astrology was bogus, a false idea system of history, you didn't start running around calling yourself a non-astrologer or non-astrologist. It's bad strategy to pick a name or label for yourself that's the opposite of whatever it is that you don't believe in. Should Dems call themselves non-Repubs? No, because it would be bad strategy.

P.S.

The response that the name "atheist" is expedient because everyone knows the term so use it is lame. It's time the world had a new name for those modern progressives or modern secular "elites" who because of their education in science and general modernity see beyond ancient theology (or theism) and its misconceptions if not superstitions for how the world and its life works.

Somebody get on this.
Jody

Mountain climber
Mar 6, 2012 - 04:40pm PT
Well, he better hope he is right.
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Mar 6, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
ha Pat is an atheist too.

Credit: ???
Walleye

climber
The Hot Kiss on the end of a Wet Fist
Mar 6, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
To paraphrase Yogi: Get back, Loretta!
Gene

climber
Mar 6, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
The response that the name "atheist" is expedient because everyone knows the term is lame. It's time the world had a new name for those modern progressives or modern secular "elites" who because of their education in science and general modernity see beyond ancient theology (or theism) and its misconceptions if not superstitions for how the world and its life works.

Somebody get on this.

That rant is almost religious in its fervor. Can somebody give me an AMEN? HALLELUJAH!!

It’s all cool, Bro. LOL! You go your way. I'll go mine. When we meet, let's be friends.

g
WBraun

climber
Mar 6, 2012 - 05:21pm PT
So what have you ever climbed?

Besides being a constant preacher.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 6, 2012 - 05:21pm PT
What a person believes or doesn't believe is none of our business. Maybe someday Alex will have a "boundary experience" and he will get another take on himself, but that's none of our business as well. Putting value judgements on what believe or purport to know is the heart of ignorance IMO. People usually follow and are led by their direct experiences, whatever they are.

JL
Walleye

climber
The Hot Kiss on the end of a Wet Fist
Mar 6, 2012 - 05:24pm PT
Well said, John..
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 6, 2012 - 05:26pm PT
Okay, Im back...

Hey Brandon,

"If religion is all about peace and righteousness, why is it the basis for most conflict?"

Because its not about "peace and righteousness," but it has, is, and will bring separation...

" Luke 12:51-53 KJV

Jesus speaking: "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

...for you either believe, or you don't, there's no in-between...


James 1:8-18 KJV

"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted: But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away. For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways. Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

WBraun

climber
Mar 6, 2012 - 05:41pm PT
Go away you one dimensional freak .... ^^^^
LuckyNeck

Trad climber
the basement of Lou's Tavern
Mar 6, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
Go away you one dimensional freak ....

+1
luggi

Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
Mar 6, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
All I hear are crickets
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Mar 6, 2012 - 06:16pm PT
I'll take science, please.

Science!


Cheers!
DMT
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Mar 6, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
Largo wrote

What a person believes or doesn't believe is none of our business. Maybe someday Alex will have a "boundary experience" and he will get another take on himself, but that's none of our business as well.


Which aspects of people are "our business?" Particularly when that person publishes their beliefs under their name to promote them. Of course this is a topic for discussion or nothing is.

Putting value judgements on what believe or purport to know is the heart of ignorance IMO. People usually follow and are led by their direct experiences, whatever they are.

I fine with this though. I think it makes a lot less difference what you "Believe" and a lot more difference how you "Are" For me the Spirituality of a person is in how open their heart and mind is, if they have peace, and how they treat people, and not what they "believe" which goes away as soon as they stop thinking about it, which is most of the time

Peace

Karl

JL
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Mar 6, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
I agree- it's none of our business.

Go Alex. I like you even more now.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Mar 6, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
Well, If Alex changes his mind this flow chart may be helpful for choosing an appropriate religion.


Credit: justthemaid
jstan

climber
Mar 6, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
Which aspects of people are "our business?" Particularly when that person publishes their beliefs under their name to promote them. Of course this is a topic for discussion or nothing is.

We all have had experiences in which we merely expressed our ideas and had them used in ways we had no way of predicting. Absent specific information we can't know that Alex knew this would be a project. We all get late evening cold calls like this.

Alex is a quite admirable youngster who handles himself well despite his youth. During his development do we want to pretend he is just one more weird "american celebrity"?

JOEY.F

Gym climber
It's not rocket surgery
Mar 6, 2012 - 06:55pm PT
Will it be known as the thank gaia ledge ?
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Mar 6, 2012 - 07:06pm PT
At what notoriety lumen factor should we begin caring about a climber’s belief system?

Does any climber remember Warren Harding’s beliefs concerning determinism and the problem of incompatibilistic evil. I, personally, am dying to ask Beth her pronouncements about karma and reincarnation.
jstan

climber
Mar 6, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
We should begin to worry about anyone's belief system only when that system begins to interfere with the performance of their duties as a citizen.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Mar 6, 2012 - 08:14pm PT
^^^^^

Good post
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 6, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
"duties" as a citizen...and what are these citizen's "duties," and what principal standard are you basing them on? Name your source.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Mar 6, 2012 - 09:26pm PT
I think Jstan is suggesting obeying civil law as duties of a citizen.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Mar 7, 2012 - 02:21am PT
We should begin to worry about anyone's belief system only when that system begins to interfere with the performance of their duties as a citizen.

That's written as if exploring someone's belief system was an inquisition intended to defame

I think when people are doing superhuman death-defying things, you're curious what's in their head and how they are wired for this.

I'm fascinated to know Dean Potter's inner relationship with Spirit and the subtle powers in mind, body and such

I might not share Alex's view but I'm totally down for Alex. Super guy!

Peace

Karl
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Mar 7, 2012 - 07:02am PT
Credit: Jim Clipper

I liked Gene's post ...
mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Mar 7, 2012 - 07:13am PT
Nice post Lolli. My family and I feel the same way. There is a huge difference is respecting someone's beliefs and believing in them.
Cheers
soaring_bird

Trad climber
Oregon
Mar 7, 2012 - 07:40am PT
Call out to the Lord for His forgiveness,
and He shall lift you up on.....


Wings of Steel !
jstan

climber
Mar 7, 2012 - 08:39am PT
I think when people are doing superhuman death-defying things, you're curious what's in their head and how they are wired for this.

Everything we do, we do after carefully seeking a balance. I am not against curiosity. I do worry that some public expression might have contributed to a later tragedy. What will I think then?

BITD nearly everyone soloed at one time or another. Our response then was to say nothing, for reasons like the one I just stated.

Now the fact is if I were to learn what is in someone's head, the only way this would happen is by hearing what they themselves said. That requires no public expression or even public expression of interest by myself.

I do what I do for the reasons above. Possibly I am overstepping by expressing even these things. I hope not.

This is all very serious.
BDoog

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2012 - 08:39am PT
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 7, 2012 - 09:12am PT
Putting value judgements on what believe or purport to know is the heart of ignorance IMO

There you go again.

People who have beliefs (mental holdings) based on their science education have a right to evaluate them, valuate them, put value judgments on them, however you want to say it. -And where would they be without this right, otherwise ability?

Beliefs in religion or science aside, you have beliefs yourself that you value. Everyone does. You might call it being human.

Who's wearing the pointy hat today?


Back in the corner, Fruity.

Had you the discrimination required, you'd understand that what I am saying is that it is none of our business to evaluate someone's ELSES beliefs. We should continually evaluate our own, but what Alex believes or does not believe about, say, spirituality, is strictly his own business and by and large will be a reflection of his own direct experiences and how he interprets same. In any case, this is all an inside job - and outside of my immediate purview.

Unless you have the same direct experiences as someone else, you have nothing but your own thoughts per what someone else believes, and in this case psychology has been pretty thorough in showing that your evaluations will be relative to your own experiences (projections). This, IOW, is the "heart of ignorance."

That clear enough?

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Mar 7, 2012 - 11:50am PT
Now that's rich you calling me out on a lack of discrimination, lol!

Your post is clear but your reasoning once again is a wee-bit choppy. Religions make a mess of beliefs, their nature and their role in our lives. Beliefs matter. They are not inconsequential. They are the best predictor of behavior. That is the point that you fail to note.

Here's your error, plain as day.
it is none of our business to evaluate someone's ELSES beliefs

Sure it is. When they translate to action or behavior that is injurious, deleterious, counterproductive in community or society.

This is so elementary it's amazing we need to elaborate on it. But again, I think it because religions muddy the water so.

How much do you care about your community? How much do you care about getting involved? It hangs on your answer and it hangs on the subject and circumstances.

People have beliefs in science, in rockclimbing, for example in regard to safety, etc.; people have beliefs in ideology and politics. If I care about preserving the earth the way my ancestors experienced it then the beliefs of land developers, for instance, should concern me. Or perhaps better: If I care about preserving the natural fresh water creek that runs through my property while a property developer upstream has the belief that re routing it better serves the community by way of enriching his plans for a golf course renovation then it should be my business to evaluate this person's belief and to stand up against it insofar as it's bs.

We gotta get real here, that's what I'm for. Rockclimbers aren't THAT stupid.

If your belief is drill baby drill, I am going to critique otherwise judge your belief. If your belief is Jesus will protect us believers even as the CO2 gets to 500ppm, and then to 700 ppm I am going to challenge your belief.

One might even argue it is one's civil duty to make someone "ELSES" deleterious beliefs concerning his community go away. All the more so in a democracy. All the moreso if it's a democracy that prides itself on being educated, wise, in the practices of living and doing no harm.

But ain't all this obvious? Sure it is. The link between belief and action is clear. Bad belief, bad action. Bad belief, bad behavior. Only one's defense of Abrahamic religion keeps this principle from being clearly understood, clearly enunciated, and often.

Good on Alex for voicing his beliefs regarding ancient theology. And good on all others for same. No more free passes for religions (esp the Abrahamic religions) or their whacky beliefs. Things need to change. I'm sick of the Pat Robertsons to Frank Grahams to Sarah Palins running so much of the show with their ignorance and obscurantisms. Bronze age superstitions - esp those that have been institutionalized (empowered through institution) - need to end the sooner the better. Time is now.

.....

I know you're interested in free will, causality and determinism, facing up to human mortality. Read Encountering Naturalism, by Thomas Clark. It's the source, change your life. :)

.....

Bdoog's video speaks truth, eh? Time is now, challenge this crazyiness.

Be the change you seek in the world.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Mar 7, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
One might even argue it is one's civil duty to make someone "ELSES" deleterious beliefs concerning his community go away. All the more so in a democracy.

Well that particular belief, that its one's duty to reeducate her fellow citizens? Has led to the point of a sword as often as not.

One can have a noble belief and the implementation plan of Stalin, there the belief is overshadowed by the reality. This has played out countless times in our collective histories and whenever I read or hear of someone going on about how its their duty to 'make someone else' do something? It raises the hair on the back of my neck.

Semantics to an extent I am sure, but not all mad scientists are well-intentioned, either.

DMT
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Mar 7, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
It's very questionable whether somebody's beliefs are none of our business, if they have gone to the trouble of expressing them.

If you want your beliefs private, don't tell them.

Supertopo is full of debate about beliefs, regarding bolting, ethics, style and all kinds of preferences.

Belief in this world can translate into all kinds of things that affect us all, Dispensationalists who believe a great war is needed in the mid-east. If somebody believes I"m going to Hell for an eternity of torture, it can affect our relationship.

My intention is to love everyone, but the subject of what people believe is obviously significant and the main reason I see for people avoiding it are fear of judgement and discomfort with beliefs and our differences as a whole

Peace

Karl
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Mar 7, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
Sounds true enough. Personally I am unmoved by some random 20-something year old's belief system and desire to voice it. A big whatever, for me.

DMT
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Mar 7, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
-

Personally I am unmoved by some random 20-something year old's belief system and desire to voice it.

Huh?

Are you talking about Honnold?


MANY BELIEVE THAT HONNOLD IS A GOD


-
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Mar 7, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
well, dmt, I don't disagree with any of that.

at the end of the day, one's either stood on the sidelines or gotten involved, to each their own I guess.


scientists, like knife handlers, are only tool users, for better and worse


we'll see by century's end how some things have turned out, as it's already beyond the 11th hour in many a venue. by century's end? yeah, I plan on being around, lol!

One can have a noble belief and the implementation plan of Stalin

for sure,

so may the winds of fate be with us and not against us.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Mar 7, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
scientists, like knife handlers, are only tool users, for better and worse

Nope. Scientists create the knife and others wield it - and THAT is the fundamental problem with implementation. The ideologues mostly get other people to implement and suffer the consequences.

There is the notion that its a duty to reeducate a fellow citizen to disabuse her of some belief deemed harmful to society, check.

Then there is the act, the act of destroying someone's belief - this is where ideal rubber meets the road of reality. I'm guessing this is the avenue largo is standing on when he says its no one's business.

I'm distrustful of ideals that not only depend on but call for this sort of action. It matters not to me that 'they do it too.' That's been my point all along actually. Ideology itself is harmless, its the implementation where the blood letting begins.

DMT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Mar 7, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
Then there is the act, the act of destroying someone's belief -

Look, if Rashid's belief is that the 12th Imam wants Israel wiped off the earth before he returns and this belief prompts him to give one million bucks every year to Hezbollah, then it needs to be destroyed. And if you want to sit on the fence and just observe things, and say "it matters not to me" that's your choice of course. I don't like the fact that evolution unfolds in fits and starts either, that it's so inefficient, often blind and ruthless, but it is what it is.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 7, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
Now that's rich you calling me out on a lack of discrimination, lol!

Your post is clear but your reasoning once again is a wee-bit choppy. Religions make a mess of beliefs, their nature and their role in our lives. Beliefs matter. They are not inconsequential. They are the best predictor of behavior. That is the point that you fail to note.

Here's your error, plain as day.
it is none of our business to evaluate someone's ELSES beliefs

Sure it is. When they translate to action or behavior that is injurious, deleterious, counterproductive in community or society.


I could nip pick this apart, with all of it's silly pronouncements and so forth, but where you totally loose your way is in your fictitious beliefs per the power of beliefs and ideas. This issues from a fundamental misunderstanding about psychology, which is the systematic study of human behavior.

The way you have it figured, Fruity, is that person ingests information, preferably scientific facts and figures that are "proven" correct, and which in mind fashion their beliefs which drive their behaviors. This is all very logical - and very wrong. It leads you to the obsessional dashing of symbolic religious doctrines believing that because some people take these things as literal truths, they in turn develop beliefs and act based on said beliefs. The cause is the thought distortion (false belief), and the effect is the whacky behavior.

But in fact the vast majority of behavior is driven by a combination of instinct/experience. Next up the ladder of importance is feelings. And finally, thoughts and beliefs - which are by far the least powerful driver per behavior.

You've heard it said many times: Knowledge availed us nothing.

What that means, and it's been proven over and over and over again, is that even the most profound insight into a problem or a behavior often has little to no effect on changing the behavior. If this were not so, psychoanalysis would be the most effective therapy in the world, per behavior modification. But of course all you end up with is a well analyzed problem and little change in behavior or feeling tones. The truth is that we have to act our way into feeling differently about things. We can rarely think our way there, and it is always a very inefficient way to effect change because thinking is so weak per behavior modification.

Acting gives us direct experiences which is what drives behavior. For instance, is South Africa they were educating the white folk about blacks, till the whites had a firm understanding about the blacks being every bit as human as the whites. But nothing changed till said white folks went and stayed with the blacks and had direct experiences of their humanity. "Humanity" went from being a belief of concept or idea to a plain and demonstrable fact of life. Behavior chanced accordingly.

Conversely, people growing up with and directly experiencing dire poverty are apt to have financial insecurities regaredless of what they "know" about having a fat bank account and a solid job.

And so far as educating people with scientific facts and figures and having them act in a more rational and humane way, we know more facts now than ever before and we're still bombing the sh#t out of the place and turning to fat turds like Rush L. for political advice. The problem, more often than not, is the instinctual energy of aggression, and our lack of having workable strategies to channel it effectively. The religious doctrines you so ignorantly defame in many cases provided the container and mythology to check aggression - not perfectly, for sure. But all of our information has not moved up one inch forward on the moral or behavioral front.

More later.

JL

socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Mar 7, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
My artsy contribution to this long winded thread:

XKCD credit...
XKCD credit...
Credit: socialclimber

and this:

XKCD credit
XKCD credit
Credit: socialclimber

Finally this:

XKCD credit
XKCD credit
Credit: socialclimber

but what you really need to do is this:

ovrdoz.tumblr.com
ovrdoz.tumblr.com
Credit: socialclimber

and this is just for good measure (experince, not the old spice):


Charles
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 7, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
There will be no Atheists on Judgement Day . . .



John.1:1 -14 (KJV)
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[7] The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
[8] He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
[9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



"God has given him a name which is above every name – that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord…" Philippians 2:9-11.



Revelations 20:11 – 15 , 21:1 – 7 (KJV)
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev.21
[1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
[2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
[5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
[6] And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
[7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.



King of Kings: Every Knee Will Bow, Every Tongue Confess
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIlXWOnbTlM

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 7, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
That's because there will be no judgment day, just another glancing blow from an asteroid.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Mar 7, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Mar 7, 2012 - 06:47pm PT
Mark Twain's Letters From the Earth:
Letter II
"I have told you nothing about man that is not true." You
must pardon me if I repeat that remark now and then in
these letters; I want you to take seriously the things I am
telling you, and I feel that if I were in your place and you in
mine, I should need that reminder from time to time, to keep
my credulity from flagging.
For there is nothing about man that is not strange to an
immortal. He looks at nothing as we look at it, his sense of
proportion is quite different from ours, and his sense of
values is so widely divergent from ours, that with all our
large intellectual powers it is not likely that even the most
gifted among us would ever be quite able to understand it.
For instance, take this sample: he has imagined a heaven,
and has left entirely out of it the supremest of all his delights,
the one ecstasy that stands first and foremost in the heart of
every individual of his race -- and of ours -- sexual
intercourse!
It is as if a lost and perishing person in a roasting desert
should be told by a rescuer he might choose and have all
longed-for things but one, and he should elect to leave out
water!
His heaven is like himself: strange, interesting, astonishing,
grotesque. I give you my word, it has not a single feature in
it that he actually values. It consists -- utterly and entirely --
of diversions which he cares next to nothing about, here in
the earth, yet is quite sure he will like them in heaven. Isn't it
curious? Isn't it interesting? You must not think I am
exaggerating, for it is not so. I will give you details.
Most men do not sing, most men cannot sing, most men will
not stay when others are singing if it be continued more
than two hours. Note that.
Only about two men in a hundred can play upon a musical
instrument, and not four in a hundred have any wish to
learn how. Set that down.
Many men pray, not many of them like to do it. A few pray
long, the others make a short cut.
More men go to church than want to.
To forty-nine men in fifty the Sabbath Day is a dreary,
dreary bore.
Of all the men in a church on a Sunday, two-thirds are
tired when the service is half over, and the rest before it is
finished.
The gladdest moment for all of them is when the preacher
uplifts his hands for the benediction. You can hear the soft
rustle of relief that sweeps the house, and you recognize
that it is eloquent with gratitude.
All nations look down upon all other nations.
All nations dislike all other nations.
All white nations despise all colored nations, of whatever
hue, and oppress them when they can.
White men will not associate with "niggers," nor marry
them.
They will not allow them in their schools and churches.
All the world hates the Jew, and will not endure him
except when he is rich.
I ask you to note all those particulars.
Further. All sane people detest noise.
All people, sane or insane, like to have variety in their life.
Monotony quickly wearies them.
Every man, according to the mental equipment that has
fallen to his share, exercises his intellect constantly,
ceaselessly, and this exercise makes up a vast and
valued and essential part of his life. The lowest intellect,
like the highest, possesses a skill of some kind and takes
a keen pleasure in testing it, proving it, perfecting it. The
urchin who is his comrade's superior in games is as
diligent and as enthusiastic in his practice as are the
sculptor, the painter, the pianist, the mathematician and
the rest. Not one of them could be happy if his talent were
put under an interdict.
4
Now then, you have the facts. You know what the human
race enjoys and what it doesn't enjoy. It has invented a
heaven out of its own head, all by itself: guess what it is like!
In fifteen hundred eternities you couldn't do it. The ablest
mind known to you or me in fifty million aeons couldn't do it.
Very well, I will tell you about it.
1. First of all, I recall to your attention the extraordinary fact
with which I began. To wit, that the human being, like the
immortals, naturally places sexual intercourse far and away
above all other joys -- yet he has left it out of his heaven!
The very thought of it excites him; opportunity sets him wild;
in this state he will risk life, reputation, everything -- even his
queer heaven itself -- to make good that opportunity and
ride it to the overwhelming climax. From youth to middle
age all men and all women prize copulation above all other
pleasures combined, yet it is actually as I have said: it is not
in their heaven; prayer takes its place.
They prize it thus highly; yet, like all their so-called "boons,"
it is a poor thing. At its very best and longest the act is brief
beyond imagination -- the imagination of an immortal, I
mean. In the matter of repetition the man is limited -- oh,
quite beyond immortal conception. We who continue the act
and its supremest ecstasies unbroken and without
withdrawal for centuries, will never be able to understand or
adequately pity the awful poverty of these people in that rich
gift which, possessed as we possess it, makes all other
possessions trivial and not worth the trouble of invoicing.
2. In man's heaven everybody sings! The man who did not
sing on earth sings there; the man who could not sing on
earth is able to do it there. The universal singing is not
casual, not occasional, not relieved by intervals of quiet; it
goes on, all day long, and every day, during a stretch of
twelve hours. And everybody stays; whereas in the earth
the place would be empty in two hours. The singing is of
hymns alone. Nay, it is of one hymn alone. The words are
always the same, in number they are only about a dozen,
there is no rhyme, there is no poetry: "Hosannah, hosannah,
hosannah, Lord God of Sabaoth, 'rah! 'rah! 'rah! siss! --
boom! ... a-a-ah!"
3. Meantime, every person is playing on a harp -- those
millions and millions! -- whereas not more than twenty in the
thousand of them could play an instrument in the earth, or
ever wanted to.
Consider the deafening hurricane of sound -- millions and
millions of voices screaming at once and millions and
millions of harps gritting their teeth at the same time! I ask
you: is it hideous, is it odious, is it horrible?
Consider further: it is a praise service; a service of
compliment, of flattery, of adulation! Do you ask who it is
that is willing to endure this strange compliment, this insane
compliment; and who not only endures it, but likes it,
enjoys it, requires if, commands it? Hold your breath!
It is God! This race's god, I mean. He sits on his throne,
attended by his four and twenty elders and some other
dignitaries pertaining to his court, and looks out over his
miles and miles of tempestuous worshipers, and smiles,
and purrs, and nods his satisfaction northward, eastward,
southward; as quaint and nave a spectacle as has yet
been imagined in this universe, I take it.
It is easy to see that the inventor of the heavens did not
originate the idea, but copied it from the show-ceremonies
of some sorry little sovereign State up in the back
settlements of the Orient somewhere.
All sane white people hate noise; yet they have tranquilly
accepted this kind of heaven -- without thinking, without
reflection, without examination -- and they actually want to
go to it! Profoundly devout old gray-headed men put in a
large part of their time dreaming of the happy day when
they will lay down the cares of this life and enter into the
joys of that place. Yet you can see how unreal it is to them,
and how little it takes a grip upon them as being fact, for
they make no practical preparation for the great change:
you never see one of them with a harp, you never hear
one of them sing.
As you have seen, that singular show is a service of
praise: praise by hymn, praise by prostration. It takes the
place of "church." Now then, in the earth these people
cannot stand much church -- an hour and a quarter is the
limit, and they draw the line at once a week. That is to say,
Sunday. One day in seven; and even then they do not
look forward to it with longing. And so -- consider what
their heaven provides for them: "church" that lasts forever,
and a Sabbath that has no end! They quickly weary of this
brief hebdomadal Sabbath here, yet they long for that
eternal one; they dream of it, they talk about it, they think
they think they are going to enjoy it -- with all their simple
hearts they think they think they are going to be happy in
it!
It is because they do not think at all; they only think they
think. Whereas they can't think; not two human beings in
ten thousand have anything to think with. And as to
imagination -- oh, well, look at their heaven! They accept it,
they approve it, they admire it. That gives you their
intellectual measure.
4. The inventor of their heaven empties into it all the
nations of the earth, in one common jumble. All are on an
equality absolute, no one of them ranking another; they
have to be "brothers"; they have to mix together, pray
together, harp together, Hosannah together -- whites,
niggers, Jews, everybody -- there's no distinction. Here in
the earth all nations hate each other, and every one of
5
them hates the Jew. Yet every pious person adores that
heaven and wants to get into it. He really does. And when
he is in a holy rapture he thinks he thinks that if he were
only there he would take all the populace to his heart, and
hug, and hug, and hug!
He is a marvel -- man is! I would I knew who invented him.
5. Every man in the earth possesses some share of intellect,
large or small; and be it large or be it small he takes pride in
it. Also his heart swells at mention of the names of the
majestic intellectual chiefs of his race, and he loves the tale
of their splendid achievements. For he is of their blood, and
in honoring themselves they have honored him. Lo, what
the mind of man can do! he cries, and calls the roll of the
illustrious of all ages; and points to the imperishable
literatures they have given to the world, and the mechanical
wonders they have invented, and the glories wherewith they
have clothed science and the arts; and to them he uncovers
as to kings, and gives to them the profoundest homage, and
the sincerest, his exultant heart can furnish -- thus exalting
intellect above all things else in the world, and enthroning it
there under the arching skies in a supremacy
unapproachable. And then he contrived a heaven that
hasn't a rag of intellectuality in it anywhere!
Is it odd, is it curious, is it puzzling? It is exactly as I have
said, incredible as it may sound. This sincere adorer of
intellect and prodigal rewarder of its mighty services here in
the earth has invented a religion and a heaven which pay
no compliments to intellect, offer it no distinctions, fling it no
largess: in fact, never even mention it.
By this time you will have noticed that the human being's
heaven has been thought out and constructed upon an
absolute definite plan; and that this plan is, that it shall
contain, in labored detail, each and every imaginable thing
that is repulsive to a man, and not a single thing he likes!
Very well, the further we proceed the more will this curious
fact be apparent.
Make a note of it: in man's heaven there are no exercises
for the intellect, nothing for it to live upon. It would rot there
in a year -- rot and stink. Rot and stink -- and at that stage
become holy. A blessed thing: for only the holy can stand
the joys of that bedlam.

Charles
bit'er ol' guy

climber
the past
Mar 7, 2012 - 06:55pm PT

All

you

need to know

is right here

enjoy th truth

you have time

and it's free
luggi

Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
Mar 7, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
All supertacoians you need to ask yourselves why we allow the same few people turn posts into their personal babble concerning their own opinion then bash those that come with facts opposing their personal opinion. We must rise up and shout to the world..."We are not going to take this anymore" Put these avatars in their place...if they post...leave it..let it die. The original post is the most important anyway. Die you imperial bastards...we will never, ever quit.


Credit: luggi
jstan

climber
Mar 7, 2012 - 09:04pm PT
Here on ST we have had heart felt and self assured proclamations that this or that religious group “are not christian". Now we have even had a presidential candidate deliver his edict that Mormons "are not christian".

When the US invaded Iraq did the Sunni and Shia unite to repel a hated aggressor? No they did not. They took the opportunity to break into each other’s homes at night so as to kill their neighbors in their beds. This by religious groups who split off from christ’s teachings only 700 years after christ. And who retained many of the stories and texts of their original religion.

Beginning with Nixon’s southern strategy for regaining power one of our parties undertook a joining of politics and religion. If you look at our current news you see no difference between politics and religion. Go against the prophet and you will be stoned. Even Congress persons have had to apologise to Rush Limbaugh for voicing positions that did not agree with his sacred text.

When religions are practiced in this way, cultural fractionation and collapse result. Consider. Now we even have "republicans" and "conservatives." In time, between even these two there will also come slaughter in the dark.

When Nixon climbed onto the back of this tiger, he knew not what he did.






A person must first be a citizen of the whole. And a believer second.

We have got it backwards.



Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.

Render unto God what is God’s.

zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 7, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
Nope. Scientists create the knife and others wield it - and THAT is the fundamental problem with implementation. The ideologues mostly get other people to implement and suffer the consequences

uh Teller, Oppenheimer ... The Manhatten Project.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 7, 2012 - 09:35pm PT
jstan has it. Divide and rule isn't the way of democracy, especially when the division is based on religion.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Mar 7, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Mar 8, 2012 - 12:47am PT
Really like that "F it" surfing pic

Beautiful..

Cheers everyone..
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 8, 2012 - 12:58am PT
You know there are 2 great climbers separated by many years, and in many ways years ahead of their time. Both are/were willing to go for it in their own way. I admire both for their climbing prowess and abilities to push the envelope to levels I will never attain, but I'm certainly inspired by both of them . . .



Tobin Sorenson -- Faith: Born Again, Christian

Alex Honnold -- Faith: Atheist




Both have faith for sure. However, I believe the evidence for Faith in GOD The Father, GOD The Son -- Jesus Christ, and GOD The Holy Ghost is overwhelming.


"The fool has said in his heart there is no GOD."




Please try to argue with these great founding fathers of modern science and try to tell them there is no GOD. Good luck with that.


Men of Science, Men of God: Great Scientists Who Believed the Bible [Paperback] Henry Madison Morris (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Men-Science-God-Scientists-Believed/dp/0890510806/ref=wl_it_dp_o_npd?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1865WQN9L6H4P&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G


Scientists of Faith: 48 Biographies of Historic Scientists and Their Christian Faith [Paperback] Dan Graves (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Scientists-Faith-Biographies-Historic-Christian/dp/082542724X/ref=wl_it_dp_o_npd?ie=UTF8&coliid=I21FDD0VAHZFKS&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G


The Science of God: The Convergence of Scientific and Biblical Wisdom [Paperback] PhD Gerald L. Schroeder (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/The-Science-God-Convergence-Scientific/dp/1439129584/ref=wl_it_dp_o_npd?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2SQ55G8RH04OC&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G


Scientists and Their Gods
Henry F. Schaefer III
http://leaderu.com/offices/schaefer/docs/scientists.html


NOVA: Newton's Dark Secrets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdmhPfGo3fE


Theistic Evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 8, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
One of the great things about climbing is that out on the sharp end, questions about whether or not Mary was a Virgin didn't count for anything. It was always just me and a rock wall and everything else was immaterial.

Sometimes I can get that simple now, but it takes a while.

JL
BDoog

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
However, I believe the evidence for Faith in GOD The Father, GOD The Son -- Jesus Christ, and GOD The Holy Ghost is overwhelming.

You throw the word evidence around in a clever way. Of course there's evidence that people have faith. Is there evidence that a fatherless savior son died for our sins? No.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Mar 8, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
That he took the time to phrase it that way shows he understands the difference. I appreciate his discrimination. Its hard to dispute his statement on face value innit?

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Mar 8, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
uh Teller, Oppenheimer ... The Manhatten Project.

Neither man used the weapon, others took that decision and still others delivered it. Teller and Oppie (and others) made the knife.

DMT
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 8, 2012 - 02:13pm PT
Glory to God for you Klimmer!

Ceaser: 0

God: Eternity
Gene

climber
Mar 8, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
I loathe the ‘us versus them’ aspect of these discussions. No matter if you are an ‘us’ or a ‘them.’

jstan - good post. The marriage of religion and politics goes back forever. Sad. For a great example of that dubious relationship, let me remind you of the Battle Hymn of the Republic. How many thousands did that tune get killed?

g
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Mar 8, 2012 - 02:35pm PT
I loathe the ‘us versus them’ aspect of these discussions.


When you discuss core personal beliefs the conflict is inevitable, but really, its ME vs allayall, I'll lampoon every perspective hahahaha.

SCIENCE!


DMT
Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Mar 8, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
If there is a God/god, no one needs to defend him.

Re: Alex, he's a young'un. A person can learn much in life if they care to.

lynne
Gene

climber
Mar 8, 2012 - 02:44pm PT
Dingus,

We disagree on much but still agree on a lot. Our disagreements haven’t diminished my respect for you and, hopefully, likewise. We are both part of the same tribe.

At least in this life. ;-)

g
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 8, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
Klimmer, 72% of the members of the Academy of Sciences have no belief in a personal god, 7% believe in one and the rest are agnostics.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Mar 8, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
We disagree on much but still agree on a lot.

Oh no worries bro it wasn't personal. I write the way I do on poipus.

My point is while we make seek out and align with fellow travelers at the core its always 'personal-view vs. the-world.

I truly don't care, at the core, what beliefs others may hold. Actions, not thoughts, are what do harm (or not). No one has the right to force another's beliefs, an inalienable right imo. I don't accept mind-f*#ks as a solution regardless of the self-declared nobility of the intentions behind the force.

DMT
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 8, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
A bit of education on the parable of "Caesar's penny"...

Luke 20:24-26 KJV

"Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Cćsar's. And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Cćsar the things which be Cćsar's, and unto God the things which be God's. And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace."

Render:

- Original: α ̓ πο δ ι ́ δ ωμ ι - Transliteration: Apodidomi - Phonetic: ap-od-eed'-o-mee - Definition: 1. to deliver, to give away for one's own profit what is one's own, to sell.

You see, Caesar would sell what he THINKS is rightfully his, for his own profit. God left his perfect, righteous world to come down to this sinful unrighteous place, in the form of stinking flesh, to be sold out for thirty pieces of silver, suffered, was ridiculed, spat on, punched, whipped, lashed with cat and nine tails until he was unrecognizable, and nailed to a cross as an innocent man, where He eventually died from His own injuries, not for His own profit but YOUR PROFIT, a gift, a free gift of eternal life back with Him for eternity. But there is one small requirement that most, just as they did back then, will reject, and that is to accept that gift. This is the saddest part of His love story to mankind.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 8, 2012 - 04:27pm PT
Would you please give the incessant proseltyzing a break? All you do is spew your damn jewish zombie fairy tale bullsh#t, over and over and over again.

We get it, you can't think for yourself. You are beholden to some incoherent, internally contradictory set of fables to soothe your existential angst. Whatever turns your crank, but frankly I'm beyond tired of your continual, tiresome god bothering freak show. STFU or beat it.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 8, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
Thank you Elcap... Glory to God, God is good!
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Mar 8, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
luggi

Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
Mar 8, 2012 - 09:32pm PT
for those that knock peoples faith in God...have you ever read or studied the subject that you all are authorities on. I don't mean sunday school lessons, what priests tell ya, or the door knockers..Don't make ill informed statements if you have no background to back it up. It is poor form. Therefore those should not knock a subject they have now real knowledge about IMO. Don't read excerpts from others on the Internet...just force yourself ...research...get the beta before you slam/judge read the Book like you would study a route that you were going to do this weekend.. Just give it a try...pick it up with either a closed or open mind and try it. Then if you want to have a debate on the subject matter we wil be on equal footing.

On another subject that has been bantered about, I understand that religion to mean obedience to the word of God...not some mystical man made cathedral in some dingy part of town with a whiskey breathing preacher asking for cash for your salvation.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Mar 9, 2012 - 04:22am PT
I admire both for their climbing prowess and abilities to push the envelope to levels I will never attain, but I'm certainly inspired by both of them . . .


Wishing happiness and long life to Alex.

I liked Mike Reardon but lampooned him a little during his short years of public ascendancy. I felt pretty wretched about it after his death. Live and learn...value and take pleasure in individual's strength and spirit, be patient with frailties.

...makes living with others smoother...(and living with yourself less burdensome)
YoungGun

climber
North
Mar 9, 2012 - 06:02am PT
for those that knock peoples faith in God...have you ever read or studied the subject that you all are authorities on. I don't mean sunday school lessons, what priests tell ya, or the door knockers..Don't make ill informed statements if you have no background to back it up. It is poor form. Therefore those should not knock a subject they have now real knowledge about IMO. Don't read excerpts from others on the Internet...just force yourself ...research...get the beta before you slam/judge read the Book like you would study a route that you were going to do this weekend.. Just give it a try...pick it up with either a closed or open mind and try it. Then if you want to have a debate on the subject matter we wil be on equal footing.

Nice try, but I've read the Bible in its entirety multiple times. I've read John Calvin, Alvin Plantinga, Darrell Bock, Ravi Zacharias, Soren Kierkegaard, Cornelius Van Til, Simon Conway Morris, G. K. Chesterton, and virtually everything written by C.S. Lewis. That pretty much covers the best literature you can find on Christian philosophy, history, theology, and apologetics. Have YOU?

I've also read extensively on scientific methods, evolution, physics, economics, mathematics, biology, and come to the conclusion that they offer a coherent and TESTABLE perspective on the universe and our place in it. Religion, in contrast, offers an incoherent and antiquated theory on life which is not testable.

I may be an atheist but I know more about Christianity than most Christians. If more Christians started looking into simple things like: how the Bible was constructed, why certain manuscripts are included and others are not, why certain versions are chosen over others, and so on, they might be pretty disturbed. But it never was about an intelligent or educated take on the world, it's always been about giving up all of that for an incoherent and implausible fable. So it's pretty rich of you to come out and act like the atheists on the forum are the ones making decisions without educated consideration of both sides.
jstan

climber
Mar 9, 2012 - 06:49am PT
So it's pretty rich of you to come out and act like the atheists on the forum are the ones making decisions without educated consideration of both sides.

Young Gun was being very gentle when the word "rich" was chosen. "Self-righteous" could as easily have been used in its place.

When I was eight or nine all on my own I started reading the bible. Just to be a little more educated. I got as far as all of the begetting and stopped there. I figured people who were so vitally concerned with bloodlines and status probably would not have information I would find useful. Many decades later all of the arguments we have over who is a "real christian" and who isn't persuade me my decision at an early age was most likely correct.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 9, 2012 - 06:54am PT
Nicely said jstan and impressive reading YounGun. A survey asking religious questions of different groups found atheists to be the best informed.
Beautiful_Corn

Big Wall climber
Brooklyn Park, MD
Mar 9, 2012 - 07:55am PT
My grandfather became a Baptist minister during his retirement and devoted himself to serving as a chaplain in a hospital offering comfort to the sick and dying. He spent his free time learning Greek and studying pre- King James translation Bible scriptures. I was watching PBS with him once when I was maybe five years old and there was some program that showed a large group of Muslims (I think they were women?) kneeling on prayer mats in an outdoor setting and praying in unison. My grandfather said something like "That's incredible... it's a shame they are praying to the wrong god." I didn't realize it at the time but that comment was what started me on the path to non-belief.

When I was a little older I read "The Picture Bible" probably one hundred times. I found it fascinating and it probably did a lot to shape me. I also read the King James translation and the NIV version quite a bit, though not nearly as much.

I appreciated (and still do) the messages of honesty, fairness, the "golden rule", and other humanist types of morality taught by Jesus and others. I still couldn't stomach the idea of a god in the sky, even as a child. Today I consider myself an atheist (still trying to get my head around the igtheist thing).

According to this guy, my parents have doomed me to hell because they bought me The Picture Bible. Whatever...

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/the_picture_bible.htm

Oh wait, I'm going to hell anyway because my parents raised me United Methodist. Here's an excerpt from that website:

"Honestly, The Picture Bible is extremely ecumenical (i.e., acceptable by many different religions). The Picture Bible wouldn't be offensive to many false religions today; including: Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-Day Adventists, Catholics, Lutherans, Church of Christ, Unitarian Universalist, United Methodist Churches of Christ, and many more. In sharp contrast, the Word of God offends all these groups, which is why they follow their own teachings instead of God's Word."

Here's what I often think to myself:
What do we call the religion of the ancient Greeks? The Romans? The Aztecs? The Mayans? Native Americans? Aboriginal Australians? Africans? Etc., etc. ad infinitum... MYTHOLOGY. In thousands of years Christianity, Islam, and Judaism will be thought of in the same way. Just more myths from long dead civilizations.
WBraun

climber
Mar 9, 2012 - 08:08am PT
The minute one uses sectarian religion as an argument you're screwed.

It will lead you no where and completely bewilder you and turn you into an atheist.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 9, 2012 - 08:46am PT
Young gun.....please, get off the "knowledge" kick...you sound like my son, and everybody else that prefers "riches" over humility. All that Bible knowledge and not once sharing the meaning behind the greatest love story ever told. Then again, this is fitting for someone that doesn't "know" the Word of God, but rather someone that knows alot "about" His Word.

I just had the PRIVELEDGE of literally sitting at the feet of my father in law who was recently diagnosed with a stage 4 glioblastoma brain tumor. He told me of an incredible vision he had while, of all things, sitting at his bedside, urinating in a urinal and dozing off.

My father-in-law is ex Filipino military and Philippine National Police and held himself at a standard of excellence and military bearing. It wasn't appropriate to cry for this was a sign of "weakness." He admitted to "wanting to know everything" he could "everything that interested me." The more knowledge the better. Mr. B holds a masters in business administration and a bachelors in industrial engineering. He retired at the rank of Colonel in the PNP, and played a mean game of tennis at the age of sixty.

"I was traveling at a high rate of speed Gary, as if something was propelling me forward. It was fast, incredibly fast! I've experienced flight on aircraft before and I know what high speed feels like but this was like no other," he shared with me, his voice starting to tremble, and tears starting to well up in his eyes. He stared straight ahead at the wall behind me.

"When I stopped there were two figures in white standing in front of me. One was a male, and the other was a female, about the size of my daughter. They were talking to each other but I couldn't hear them or understand what they were saying. It felt as if they were discussing what to do with me but I can't really say," he described while tears ran off both our faces, snot hanging to the carpet below me. "All of the sudden I was moving very quickly again, so fast, back to where I came from. When I opened my eyes, there I was, still sitting at the bedside with the urinal in my hand."

"I realize now that I am nothing, for all I've been doing is inhibiting His Knowledge from working through me like a clean vessel. I realize now how limited I am, and how limitless God is!"


Edit: Mr. "B" accepted Jesus Christ as his savior back in 1993 at a international police training seminar in Ft. Lee Virginia and has wishes of going back home to the Philippines to preach God's Word. He is currently in rehab after brain surgery. Please pray for him.
YoungGun

climber
North
Mar 9, 2012 - 09:13am PT
Young gun.....please, get off the "knowledge" kick...
If you're reading the thread, you will see I am responding to someone who argued that atheists were making ill informed decisions. My reply was to dispel this notion. See, there's continuity and dialog -- not everyone is just showing up to SPAM a zillion Bible verses and then disappear and call it a conversation.

Your response is basically the layman's version of the multi-volume work of Alvin Plantinga in Warrant and Proper Function, Warranted Christian Belief, etc. That is, if someone experiences something and forms belief on the basis of that experience, the fact that others don't share that experience does not invalidate it.

The problem is that this justifies belief in all kinds of things, not just religious experiences. If you go into the woods alone and see a unicorn, when you come out of the woods and tell me about it there's no real way I can disprove or invalidate your experience other than just saying "you're crazy" which amounts to an accusation of irrationality.

The crux of the Plantinga argument revolves around the likelihood that the human brain is functioning properly in an appropriate environment. So the question is: if we have evolved on the basis of random genetic mutation and natural selection, how likely is it we have also evolved to think rationally?
luggi

Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
Mar 9, 2012 - 09:16am PT
Hey Lolli...have I studied...somewhat...am I an expert? by no means. I have studied the time that is being discussed in the old Testament which gave me an much better understanding of the life that was occurring during those times. I have studied apologetics and other forms of religion. For example...Spiritualism, Scientology, Free Masonry, The Way International, The Baha'i Faith, Unitairan-Universalist Association, Unification Church (moonies), Christian Science, New Age Movement, Jehovah's witness, and LDS and some on the Qur'an.

I am and was like most here..just found something that made sense to me and the more I looked the more informed I was. What is difficult is being able to remove all the stigmas that man has attached to the original documents. For example...IMO the evidence provided in the Bible provides the most accurate historical depiction of what transpired during those times then any other source. Even today, if anyone looks, all documents of history are written generations latter, some much, much later. If you throw in the writings of lets say the historian Josephus, you now have an independent non biblical person supporting the original documentation. Where else in history does man have that kind of evidence that something occurred and documented first hand per say.
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Mar 9, 2012 - 09:22am PT
-

One thing we know for sure...

Honnold is too fuking smart to post on this thread.


-
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 9, 2012 - 09:33am PT
Your knowledge is vanity (nothing).
Naitch

climber
Seneca area
Mar 9, 2012 - 10:36am PT
Wow, all this just because Honnold. Guess he has the power to evoke both in the climbing and epistemological worlds.

Why can't we all just appreciate diversity and respect and learn from each other!

Some day I'll write more but as a summary....was raised in an evangelical household and continued in that realm until the end of high school. In the 60s i started exploring the world outside of that narrow world view (who didn't during that era). Later came back to the fold read all kind of x'ian apologetics, studied linguistics and eventually went overseas to translate the bible for a bibleless tribe in papua new guinea in order to convert them. Started reading tons of other stuff, anthropology, science, etc. (what else do you do with your spare time in the middle of the jungle). Interacted with many people from other countries and world views during my time over there.

Long story short, instead of the 'heathen' being converted, I was "converted". There are many different ways to view the world and live in it based on culture, environment, etc. They all have their good points and they all have their blind spots and fundamentalist/legalistic zealots that take things to extremes. I'm at a point where I consider myself an agnostic and can appreciate many different religions/world views and can learn from them and am the "richer" for it.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Mar 9, 2012 - 10:39am PT
Wow, all this just because Honnold. Guess he has the power to evoke both in the climbing and epistemological worlds.

On no Honnold is not needed nor is he the inspiration for this discussion. This program is regularly scheduled.

DMT
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad surfing the galactic plane
Mar 9, 2012 - 10:41am PT
Oh no Honnold is not needed nor is he the inspiration for this discussion. This program is regularly scheduled!

Hahahaaaaaaaaaa!!

DMT hit the nail squarely on it's head, once again!
Gene

climber
Mar 9, 2012 - 10:53am PT
Oh no Honnold is not needed nor is he the inspiration for this discussion. This program is regularly scheduled!

See the second post in this thread and have a seat on the couch.
YoungGun

climber
North
Mar 9, 2012 - 11:22am PT
Truthdweller: Your knowledge is vanity (nothing).
I spent years of free time reading about your religion because I desperately wanted to know the truth and to understand the world around me. It's pretty insulting for you to write what I have learned off as nothingness obtained in the pursuit of my own vanity. Disappointing that you are not able to do better than this kind of ad hominem attack response.
jstan

climber
Mar 9, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
Young gun.....please, get off the "knowledge" kick...

TD:
You are criticizing someone for the way they think and reason. This smacks of a very deep intolerance. Sunni and the Shia seem to have such a deep intolerance. I trust this characteristic does not also reside among christians.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 9, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 9, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
It's okay to have a mutual respect for other religions and their beliefs (unless you're an extremist, then you basically want to cleanse the world of everyone not within your beliefs to the T) but as soon as someone is an Atheist, then they're immoral, disgraceful, sc#m-of-the-earth human beings, for.... why?

Oh, yeah, that was directed at you "Truthdweller"
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Mar 9, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
There's as much chance of no God as no chicken or egg!
luggi

Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
Mar 9, 2012 - 05:24pm PT
Lolli

Understanding is not equal with accepting. I'm a coldhearted cynical bastard underneath, suspicious of hidden agendas and slippery cowardness.


If one understands a concept are they not accepting of the facts presented in the concept for the understanding to take place. ie..a complex mathematical formula..if you do not understand the concept, the facts to solve the problem are meaningless.


edit...it makes sense in my head...I am sure there are flaws with the logic that will be pointed out.
WBraun

climber
Mar 9, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
None of these guys here can think for themselves. None of em.

The minute they get hurt they run off to some physical therapist who tells them what to do.

One who can think for them selves can figure it out by themselves.

Thus it proves.

Everyone is stupid and needs to be told by someone what to do.

Who's telling you .... :-)

cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Mar 9, 2012 - 05:43pm PT


OBEY.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 9, 2012 - 09:38pm PT
Jan, no, actually, it was the Lord Himself that is ..."criticizing someone for the way they think and reason," that, "smacks of a very deep intolerance." Your "trust" is also, vanity.



"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." - Genesis 6:5


"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts..." - Isaiah 55:7a

"The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity." - Psalm 94:11

"The thoughts of the righteous are right: but the counsels of the wicked are deceit." - Psalm 12:5

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." - Isaiah 55:9

"I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;" Isaiah 65:2

"O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?" - Jeremiah 4:14

"Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it." - Jeremiah 6:19

"Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." - Matthew 15:11

"And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain." - 1 Corinthians 3:20

"...for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth." Genesis 8:21b

"... imagination of their own/evil heart." Jeremiah 3:17, 7:24, 9:14, 11:8, 13:10, 16:12, 18:12, 23:17, Luke 1:51.

"Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity." - Psalm 62:9

"The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity. - Psalm 94:11

"Man is like to vanity: his days are as a shadow that passeth away. - Psalm 144:4

"The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem...

"I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem. And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith. I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit." - Ecclesiastes 1:1,12-14





"Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob...For I beheld, and there was no man; even among them, and there was no counsellor, that, when I asked of them, could answer a word. Behold, they are all vanity; their works are nothing: their molten images are wind and confusion. Isaiah 41:21, 28-29




...and to save the best for last:

"...verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah."
Psalm 39:5




Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 9, 2012 - 09:47pm PT
None of these guys here can think for themselves. None of em.


Glory to God for that Werner!

Now THAT comment means EVERYTHING, the Truth if I ever heard it!


Philippians 4:13:
"I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."
Paul_in_Van

Trad climber
Near Squampton
Mar 10, 2012 - 11:36pm PT
What a waste of electrons. Who the hell cares what Alex thinks or believes on the religious front.

TD, you come across as a closed minded religious nut. YG, may not have your belief system, but to his (her?) credit he is trying to have a reasonable conversation (however pointless).

I feel dirty for even getting involved.

P
Longstick

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Mar 11, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
Has anyone met a Christ-follower based on a scientific proof (evolution vs creation), archeological evidence, or analytical analysis.

Folks like me tend to be drawn to Him not out of our good-sense and sound-judgement. More akin to sensing an empty life, broken and needful. ... and a hand reaching out to me. His hand...His words...His truth....forgiveness and life. Don't get me wrong, I did not abandon my brain...though some would suggest. For reasons not worth mentioning. And yup, I embrace fully the truths of His life, words, miracles, and resurrection.

I find the account of Jesus betrayal the night before the crucifixion ...interesting. Timely, too. Now as Easter approaches. It illustrates my point: Peter chopped off the ear of another follower...that man was probably much like Peter...perhaps a bit of a zealot and brash. But, then ..his ear was healed, blammo... healed on-site by Jesus. Are you kidding me? Why that miracle did not stop them in their tracks is a window into mankind. Who did that man and those witnesses to the miracle think Jesus was? Shouldn't they have fallen down in awe...and wonderment?

Nope. Jesus was not what they wanted. His life, they were not drawn towards. Their interests, well they were elsewhere. That is the stuff repeated every day.

And so it seems to go.
jstan

climber
Mar 11, 2012 - 07:26pm PT
Nope. Jesus was not what they wanted. His life, they were not drawn towards. Their interests, well they were elsewhere. That is the stuff repeated every day.

And so it seems to go.

A seminal inference.

Jesus if he yet exists, has to be tortured by his failure.

Has he been consigned - to Hell





by us?
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Mar 11, 2012 - 08:43pm PT
One day Jesus will bid us to come out of the closet...
photo not found
Missing photo ID#240691
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.







Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 11, 2012 - 08:46pm PT
TD, you come across as a closed minded religious nut. YG, may not have your belief system, but to his (her?) credit he is trying to have a reasonable conversation (however pointless).

I feel dirty for even getting involved.
Thanks Paul, glory to God for your remarks. I cant help but to see the striking similarities in you're remarks as Festus replied to Paul (once Saul) who was describing his conversion, "with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad."

It would be fitting to reply, to you, just as Paul did to Festus, "I am not mad, most noble Festus (Paul); but to speak forth the words of truth and soberness." - Acts 26:24-25

"Closed minded"? ABSOLUTELY...to the world's system!

Romans 12:2 KJV

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

It's about time I got my "brain-washed" from all the lies in this world!

Only the truth makes free Paul,

Glory to God
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 11, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
How did Jesus (God) fail jstan?
Patrick Oliver

Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
Mar 13, 2012 - 06:53am PT
All through my life I've been surrounded by all sorts of
individuals and all sorts of beliefs or lack of belief. It has
never really concerned me, because I have always liked people.
When I met Royal, for example, he was an atheist. He was young
and very self-confident. Alex actually reminds me quite a bit
of Royal. Both were a bit ahead of their time, or certainly leaders
in their day. Later in life Royal had some personal experiences
that changed his way of seeing things. Layton too converted to
his religion. I wasn't about to love Layton any less, no matter how much
I may have disagreed with some of the dictates of his religion.
I've had the best time in the world with powerful atheists, such as
Higgins and Kamps, and I do not love them any less because of
their take on life. I have had the same good experiences with Frost,
a man who always seemed about as honest and spiritual
as a person could be, in my experience, genuinely true. Everyone
is imperfect, though, and has shortcomings. Kim Miller, a devout
friend is an inspiration as a climber and person... and so forth.
My love for these people, and there are countless others I haven't
named, simply does not
hinge on what they believe. I think it might be kind of conditional,
to say the least,
to love people only if they adhere to my perspective on life. I would
have nothing to learn from anyone if I had it all figured out
to a tight molecule. And
whatever I believe, in general I feel one should keep relatively quiet
about it. If you believe, pray in the closet as the scriptures say.
Don't pray to be
seen of men, as these television evangelists do. If I understand John
Long, he is saying what we believe is personal and mostly can only be
understood by us as individuals. I agree with that. Yet people get
on their high horses and from all points along the spectrum of
belief, from atheist to fully committed spiritually. Individuals
sound their call of confidence in their own view of things and
often seem threatened by the differing views of others.
Life is such a fantastic mystery, so very deep and beautiful, so
eternally complex. Why would I ever want to think I have it all
figured out, in the short course of years that is my life?
For myself, I think, I must in large measure stand back and
try to observe, rather than make all my determinations at such
a young age as... oops I'm 65 now. But that's a young age in some
relative sense, I suppose. When I hear my friend Jim Donini say,

"Every serious inquiry into the efficacy of prayer has come up
with zilch. Prayer cannot be shown to have the slightest
effect on the outcome of events with the possible
exception of a few placebo cases,"

I will say... First of all, Jim, I don't attack you for saying
such a thing. I will admit it struck me at first as incomprehensibly
inexperienced. Yet I believe you are real and feel that way. I don't
have to disagree with you. Rather maybe you could view me more
like a colleague on a debate team, and prior to some big debate
perhaps where I, your mate, ask you a few things that I know
others might ask. For example, where do you
find these "inquiries?" How can anyone
measure the complexity of experience among so many millions of
people? It seems so simple to make a broad one-sentence
exclammatory remark. One could as easily say,
"According to every inquiry into the subject, no one who climbs
has ever had a very profound experience." Well, maybe that's
not the best analogy, but yours and that statement feel
related. I can't imagine such
inquiries are very accurate or all-encompassing or of much
worth at all, to whatever degree beyond primitive they in fact
exist, and in consideration of how many people are involved
through an infinity of decades and centuries. Clearly when so
many people (on both sides of the belief spectrum)
are intelligent, that's not going to be the deciding issue.
When Einstein said he believed in God, one can imagine
he took in a little science
along the way and did not dismiss too many possibilities. It
was interesting to watch Dylan go from Jewish to Christian,
in his spiritual investigations, and then around other
turns after that. We're speaking of people who may not
have it all right, but whom, I would hope we can agree,
are intellectually curious and searching?

I put forth no argument here, as to whether or not prayer works
or whether or not God exists. I do, however, question the worth,
of comments that seem to negate one way of thinking or another,
in a broad convenient sweep..., when the world of experience is
so infinite and immeasurable and when it probably is
completely beyond even the richest imagination to tap,
except in the slightest way,
the depths of experience that make up humanity at large.
When people tell me things that seem strange or far fetched,
why do I need to doubt them? Even when people say they don't
believe, I must first respond with a certain respectul acceptance
of their experience, and I must trust their point of view -- whatever
my own beliefs might be.
ground_up

Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
Mar 13, 2012 - 08:00am PT
" I don't pray to god , I pray to Joe Pesci ..why? Cuz he seems
to be the kind of guy that gets sh%t done" George Carlin
Naitch

climber
Seneca area
Mar 13, 2012 - 08:10am PT
Well stated Pat.
Gene

climber
Mar 13, 2012 - 08:11am PT
Nice post, Patrick Oliver!

g
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Mar 15, 2012 - 05:03am PT
Mark 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Psalm 14:1 The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”

Ezekiel 33:8 "When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,' and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require from your hand.

John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Luke 15:11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.

13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.

“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

25 “Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27 ‘Your brother has come,’ he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’

28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’

31 “‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”






Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 15, 2012 - 06:44am PT
NASA Scientist Fired for his Faith

I'm very careful not to talk about my faith or my beliefs at work. I suppose we all must be careful no matter what side of the fence you are on . . .

But this is ridiculous. He was the most senior researcher on the project with excellent reviews for all his many years/time at JPL. Yes, he shared a few DVDs with co-workers. Doesn't sound as though he was holding a gun to their head or forcing them to watch. He shared some DVDs on Intelligent Design because they seemed to be interested in it.

Then JPL fired him. Perhaps he should bring up JPL's founder, Jack Parson, and his dark history in the occult? He had others in JPL involved in the occult in the early days of JPL also. You can read all about it in the book "Dark Mission: NASA's secret history" by Richard Hoagland and Mike Bara. There may even be an occult connection today safely hidden from everyone's view. Dark Mission suggests so.

NASA has a direct Nazi Germany connection. Google "Operation Paperclip." It's well known now that Hitler and his officers within the Nazi Party were heavy, heavy into the occult. Read the book, "The Nazis and the Occult: The Dark Forces Unleashed by the Third Reich" by Paul Roland.

All of our modern science founding fathers of Faith would be rolling in their graves: Aristotle, Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Newton and on and on.

So it begins . . .



http://news.yahoo.com/video/science-15749654/nasa-scientist-fired-for-his-faith-28596512.html



Edit:
By the way, Google "March, Mars, 322, Skull and Crossbones, the occult, and Georgia Guidestones" and you will get an eye full. And yes they are all connected in some bizarre way. 3-22 happens to be a high power evil holy (actually unholy) day for the occult world.


Further Edit:

There is only one true GOD (The Trinity) -- The GOD above all others (YHWY and YESHUA). But there are many GODs. Even the Bible says so.

Isn't it funny how some people can't get there head around the idea that there is more than just us out there. That there is more intelligent life out there. And this intelligent life or intelligent spirits or entities are far more advanced than we are.

These people take on a idealogical fixed-in-stone view that there is no GOD or GODs out there. They point to Evolution all happening on its own without a designer as evidence (the evidence doesn't suggest this, but they ignore the evidence contrary to their wishful view), and therefore proof positive that GOD doesn't exist or GODs don't exist.

Yet, there are people in positions of power in government and other institutions that not only know that GOD exists or GODs exist, but that they even actively worship and allow themselves to be manipulated by GOD's enemies -- Lucifer and his host of Fallen Angels. Those into the occult and all of it's many factions and practices. They not only know that GOD or GODs exist, they hate the one true GOD and purposefully rebel against GOD and serve their master and the enemy of GOD, Lucifer, the god of this world. And sometimes they don't even hide it.



So you have those who know that GOD is indeed real, and believe, and have faith and worship GOD. Those of Faith.

Then you have those who know that GOD is indeed real, but choose to purposefully rebel against GOD, and hate GOD, and choose to go with GOD's enemy and all who rebel against GOD. Those who have Faith, but who rebel against GOD.

Then you have those who aren't really sure what to believe, whether GOD exists or not. The Agnostics. Those who are clueless and can't make up their mind just yet one way or the other.

Then you have those who say and believe that GOD or GODs don't exist, and never did and never will. The Atheists. These are those who have their heads buried in the sand, with their eyes closed, and their fingers in their ears. All the evidence in the World seems to not matter. They don't want GOD to exist, so they believe he never has or that he ever will. It is willful ignorance.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 15, 2012 - 07:35am PT
I'm curious.... And I sincerely mean no offense.

How do intelligent people that really believe in one organized religion or another reconcile the existence of at least another 15 current 'mainstream' religious belief systems? What about the 1000 religions that have existed since we began to scrawl on rock walls?

I understand the need for some kind of spirituality, but I fail to see in this modern age how one chooses to believe in just one set of evolving stories and strange rules clearly created by other men often over thousands of years. (i.e. the jewish carpenter, the bull, the sun-god, etc....)
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Mar 15, 2012 - 08:30am PT
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Mar 15, 2012 - 09:20am PT
What about the 1000 religions that have existed since we began to scrawl on rock walls?

There can be only one God, or none!

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
BDoog

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2012 - 10:16am PT
go-B, why do you reject Islam?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 15, 2012 - 10:19am PT
My prayers were answered as I am still here.
Yours weren't as I am still here.
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Mar 15, 2012 - 10:41am PT
It's not that I reject but that I accept...

Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
luggi

Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
Mar 15, 2012 - 10:59am PT
BDoog..let me provide some background for Go B and some differences to the Qur'an. I am sure he does not know and it might be good info for others:
I think he is getting at is the God of Muhammad The God of the Bible and do Muslims and Christians worship the same God?

A) It is a matter of Linguistics, for some this is All there is to it. Note though that both Christians and Jews settled in Arabia long before the time of Muhammad. There are references to Jewish dietary laws and biblical verses and allusions to biblical verses verses or passages in the Qur'an.

Allah the theos and elohim/el/eloah....Allah was in use in pre-Isamic times. Some say it referred to the moon god worshipped in pre-Islam Arabia. More likely, allah comes from the Syriac alah and the Aramaic elah. Allah was used as a term for "God" by Arab's, Jews and Christians before the time of Muhammad and there is later evidence ms. evidence of Arabian OT and NT translations using the Arabic Allah for "God".

Both Muslims and Christians hold that only one God exits... in comes down down quickly before I loose more people that there is a Referent and sense...Predicates define who "God" is and what"God" has done. Ok here it is...Both True Qur'anic Muslims, and true Biblical Christinas do not act as though you can pour any content into the word Allah or T=theos or elohim, nor do they believe that one can pour any content into the words. The Qur'an and the Bible teach that one cannot, should not, must not do this either. ..

Now for the crescendo...

The Qur'an..Allah is strictly "one" one without a second, one person, bible different
Say not Trinity: Desist "Sura" 4:171
Jesus is only a prophet "For God is one God: Glory be to Him: far exalted is he above having a son. Sura 4:171
Jesus was not crucified on the cross, they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them..Sura 157.
Some say that the Qur'an affirms the virgin birth. But is does not because the predicates concerning the virgin birth in the Qur'an and in the Bible are different. ..

I could go on but now it gets really heated and probably would not add to this discussion but to only incite and polarize sides.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 15, 2012 - 11:09am PT
There is only one true GOD (The Trinity) -- The GOD above all others (YHWY and YESHUA). But there are many GODs. Even the Bible says so.

Isn't it funny how some people can't get there head around the idea that there is more than just us out there. That there is more intelligent life out there. And this intelligent life or intelligent spirits or entities are far more advanced than we are.

These people take on a idealogical fixed-in-stone view that there is no GOD or GODs out there. They point to Evolution all happening on its own without a designer as evidence (the evidence doesn't suggest this, but they ignore the evidence contrary to their wishful view), and therefore proof positive that GOD doesn't exist or GODs don't exist.

Yet, there are people in positions of power in government and other institutions that not only know that GOD exists or GODs exist, but that they even actively worship and allow themselves to be manipulated by GOD's enemies -- Lucifer and his host of Fallen Angels. Those into the occult and all of it's many factions and practices. They not only know that GOD or GODs exist, they hate the one true GOD and purposefully rebel against GOD and serve their master and the enemy of GOD, Lucifer, the god of this world. And sometimes they don't even hide it.



So you have those who know that GOD is indeed real, and believe, and have faith and worship GOD. Those of Faith.

Then you have those who know that GOD is indeed real, but choose to purposefully rebel against GOD, and hate GOD, and choose to go with GOD's enemy and all who rebel against GOD. Those who have Faith, but who rebel against GOD.

Then you have those who aren't really sure what to believe, whether GOD exists or not. The Agnostics. Those who are clueless and can't make up their mind just yet one way or the other.

Then you have those who say and believe that GOD or GODs don't exist, and never did and never will. The Atheists. These are those who have their heads buried in the sand, with their eyes closed, and their fingers in their ears. All the evidence in the World seems to not matter. They don't want GOD to exist, so they believe he never has or that he ever will. It is willful ignorance.
coz

Mountain climber
Northern surly
Mar 15, 2012 - 11:19am PT
Klimmer,

How do you know there is only one true God, because your little bible tells you so?

Doesn't it seem likely than when the bible was written, many God's existed in peoples' minds.

But, by telling one group their God was the one true God, they became willing to kill, torture and maim, all who didn't believe in a one true God, not to mention take all their resorces.

Do people like yourself, Lynne, TD, understand it's extremely arrogant to tell all of us who the one true God is?

Do you not see, the intolerance, racism and violence that manifest from this sort of myopic thinking.
WBraun

climber
Mar 15, 2012 - 11:21am PT
Even the Bible says so.

Klimmer

Well that's not good enough alone.

The atheist, agnostic, modern material science, has not seen God according to their realizations.

So you just want them to agree to blind faith on your words here alone?

Never gonna work that way.

They must have absolute proof.

Summon Bonnum or the ultimate original source of all energies ......
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Mar 15, 2012 - 11:21am PT
The question to ask yourself is, do you believe that at one point a talking snake existed?

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 15, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
do you believe that at one point a talking snake existed?

Ever seen the film Bruno?

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 15, 2012 - 07:15pm PT
And again I mean no offense to anyone's beliefs as I am simply curious of how those who truly believe or "know" that their version of God is the right one when so many disparities exist just on our own tiny planet. Rather than compare and contrast Christianity with Islam, take it back 3000 years and compare Christianity with the Egyptian pantheon. There were advanced civilizations way back then just as convinced Apollo really did load up his chariot with the sun and drive it across the sky. I'm sure people back then were killing each other over such critical differences such as were there 4 horses or 2 pulling the load. Nothing has changed, just the stories.

I suppose I should extend that question to athiests as well. How can you absolutely "know" there is no God in a universe with so many yet unexplained wonders?

The older I get the more I realize I don't "know" a goddamn thing.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Mar 15, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
Greg

The "talking serpent". Dude, did anyone think that we would have cell phones, internet, and yadayada could go on forever. What's so crazy about snake talk?
Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Mar 15, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
Coz, don't think I ever ever said that or did that. Pretty much all I express here is that jesus is my best friend. My friend.....don't try to push my beliefs on anyone. Cheers and miss seeing you. Haven't been to Josh in forever. Hope to see you at the Gordo fest. lynnie
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 15, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
"G"od vs. "g"od...there is only one "G"od...even the bible differentiates that.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 15, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
Hey Pat, you're of the Mormon faith no?
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Mar 15, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
If you search for truth, and open your mind to the most apparent truths of reality, and reject unbelievable miracles that can never be repeated, and myths based on ancient stories that never happened.

The more reasons you will realize that All religions are Wrong, and based on false beliefs, myths, and hallucinations

The truth is nothingness, just like the Enlightened ones told us
There is no God, no spirits, no after Life, there is nothing past the Human imagination.
There are no spiritual entities or cosmic consciousness beyond the physical brain.
There is only nothingness, life, energy and matter.
luggi

Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
Mar 15, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ok which one of ya lifted the rock?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Mar 16, 2012 - 01:40am PT
Because there has been no evidence of a talking snake ever existing, considering that it was supposed to have existed in the past.

Phones, cars are manmade inventions. Are you saying that in the past we invented a talking snake? That doesn't sound like the story I remember, pretty sure it was Satan talking through a snake.

Of course, perhaps snakes might evolve into a higher form of being that has mastered cogniscent thought and speech but, lacking hands, could never create out of matter the subtleties in their mind? Even millions of years ago these snakes could have existed, and just as Mankind developed a stable enough food supply and could begin banding as tribes and creating nations the Snakes were stomped out of existence, the clear second animal on the food chain to their warm-blooded brethren with Metacarpals?





Of course, the same book that claims existence of a talking snake also claims the world was created in seven days, men come back from the dead and kind of recommended rape.


I'm not saying there is no God, and Jesus was a total badass, but that story is bullsh#t. :)
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Mar 16, 2012 - 01:45am PT
I really have no idea what this whole thread has been about, by the way. As an aside.




eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Mar 16, 2012 - 04:40am PT
Then you have those who say and believe that GOD or GODs don't exist, and never did and never will. The Atheists. These are those who have their heads buried in the sand, with their eyes closed, and their fingers in their ears. All the evidence in the World seems to not matter. They don't want GOD to exist, so they believe he never has or that he ever will. It is willful ignorance.

Since I'm one of them, let me tell you that you're about as off-base as you can be here. I don't not WANT God to exist. I merely think that it's silly to believe in him/her/it in the exact same way that it would be silly to believe in Apollo or Zeus. There's nothing really all that Active about this stand. It feels like breathing.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 16, 2012 - 06:34am PT
There it is again, little "g" god...thank God it aint referring to God.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 16, 2012 - 06:46am PT
Lolli,

Hope... hehe... a Monthy Pyhonesque answer to that: I can stand the pain, I can do that, it's the hope I cannot stand, it's the hope that leaves me in despair...

The gospel of resignation... gelassenheit...

Among the men of action Don Quijote is a greater hero to me than God. I'm still not at the level of the Don, thank god. Though I think Jan, WBraun and Largo are.
Norwegian

Trad climber
Placerville, California
Mar 16, 2012 - 07:13am PT
navigating the spiritual gradient
is best done while intoxicated with
any agent other than fear.

down and up rise and fall higher and lower;
these maxims are irrelevant
upon a multi-dimensional fabric with infinite axis.

handbaskets are my preffered method of travel, here.

i'll combat any god who attempts to cast me judgement.
i'll gamble with the devil and take in myself all of his sin.
i'll breath rain into the desert
and very compliment her asse that appears to be an amusement park.
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Mar 16, 2012 - 07:23am PT
Romans 10:1 Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”

19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,

“I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”

20 And Isaiah boldly says,

“I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”

21 But concerning Israel he says,

“All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people.”



Luke 11:27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
dirtbag

climber
Mar 16, 2012 - 07:34am PT
Dirtbag 1:1 "Ye who thunpeth boreth the fukk out of me."
YoungGun

climber
North
Mar 16, 2012 - 07:34am PT
Song of Solomon 8:8: "We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts: what shall we do for our sister in the day when she shall be spoken for?"

Honestly, I don't see the point to posting strings of random bible verses. Most Christians seem incapable of holding a dialog, or doing much besides regurgitating little numbered aphorisms.
jstan

climber
Mar 16, 2012 - 07:39am PT
Honestly, I don't see the point to posting strings of random bible verses.

I suspect the practice is intended to be Pavlovian.

The speaker's intention is to apply it to us but was something that was originally used on the speaker.
Norwegian

Trad climber
Placerville, California
Mar 16, 2012 - 07:48am PT
when one surrenders his ability
to think for himself,
he then defaults to echoing
ancient errors.

go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Mar 16, 2012 - 07:54am PT
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.


1 Peter 1: 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

Norwegian

Trad climber
Placerville, California
Mar 16, 2012 - 08:31am PT
bogi,
your resistance to wisdom is admirable.
your persistent commitment to ignorance is questionable,
buy hey,
live on man! as you see accurate.
just please don't go shoutin down my rabbit hole.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 16, 2012 - 09:16am PT
That's the saddest, most profound aspect of it all, Norwegian (jstan, et al), for a mind such as yours, to be blinded to Wisdom as well as being corrupted by your own wisdom. Wake up bro, for when you humble yourself and let true Wisdom establish your mind, will and emotions, you will understand above all that you can ever think and imagine! Then, and only then (that's a decision) will you finally "understand," as opposed to "misunderstanding" everyone else, or more simply put, making a fool of yourself. I don't say that to be hurtful but, really, am seeing myself, when the "wisdom" out there in the world used to fill my senses.

"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and let him RETURN (for we were once sinless) unto the Lord, and he will have mercy on him; and to our God for He will abundantly pardon." - Isaiah 55:7
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 16, 2012 - 09:48am PT
So, if all you bible quoters have some time to spare, how about commenting on the old (circa 1999 or 2000) "Letter to Dr. Laura."

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

coz

Mountain climber
Northern surly
Mar 16, 2012 - 09:49am PT
TD,

I assume you're a vet, if so thank you for your service.

I believe in a higher purpose, and I'm not closed to the fact that an intelligent design is behind our planet.

I find science often wrong and the musing of guys like Ed Hartoney and Craig Fry, as mystifying as your own.

Why is it so hard for you three not to have an answer, to embrace the unknown, to go out into the world without any preconceived knowledge? Do you feel better if you can know you have an answer, does it stop your fear of death and what lies below the swimmer in a deep sea?

TD, you need to understand that you do not know the answer, your God is at best a theory and there is no proof.

You have to live and and let live, and not cram your view of the world down everyone's throat.

I go to church, I pray, I burn candles and believe in the after life, but my God is personal, it is my own belief, you don't speak for me, you have no right to tell me my God is false, nor does Alex have the right to claim my God doesn't exist.

This crap about a one true God, or no God is just that, scared people grasping to know the unknowable.

fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Mar 16, 2012 - 09:52am PT
go-b was a very fun dood BITD.



TheTool
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 16, 2012 - 09:57am PT
Ghost, that letter is still priceless!

Now get over here to receive your lashes you dirty blaspheeeemer!
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Mar 16, 2012 - 10:03am PT
Why is it so hard for you three not to have an answer, to embrace the unknown, to go out into the world without any preconceived knowledge?
What unknown?
Please tell us what unknown you are referring to.

If you can define it, its not unknown.

Scientists are the first to embrace the unknown, and then we study it, and know it.

Preconceived notions are what the God Believers have, if you have no preconceived notions, you would not believe in something only written in stories and from peoples minds, that are no more believable than a dream or a drug trip.
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Mar 16, 2012 - 10:05am PT
^^^

the important thing is, SCIENCE can admit to being wrong...it is not real science if it cannot...whereas the religious folk tend to just say CAUSE THE BIBLE SEZ SO (insert other holy books, if you wish)

take a look around you, where would we be without the scientific process? fundamentally, science is a humanistic pursuit that works for the gradual betterment of all mankind...knowledge is NOT folly and pure vanity

you don't wanna know the grotesque details of the countless diseases that science has overcome

without the scientific process, we'd all still be wallowing in the muck!

-
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 16, 2012 - 11:46am PT
Coz,

I'm just enjoying posting to threads just as you are. The joy and peace I receive from responding was unimaginable, literally, I COULDN'T imagine, before I became a member of Reformers Unanimous International and started studying the Word of God. That being said, and hearing responses such as yours, "cramming it down others throats" just humbles me, and further strengthens the Truth. That response right there probably baffles you as to why I would respond that way, but it's the Truth, and the Truth made me free (John 8:31-32). There is nothing BUT evidence to support the Word of God and if you're willing to lend an ear it's available.

I'm attending the last night of a conference entitled, "Encourage the Discouraged" tonight and I can't wait to have my world rocked, again, on another Friday night instead of where I used to spend them.
luggi

Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
Mar 16, 2012 - 12:03pm PT
The bible as well as scientists have independent validation of the work. What validates the bible is archeology and non biblical writings the supporting what the bible said occurred. Weather one believes the documentation is a different situation.

I am not a scientist..however has anyone proved the "big bang"...the super collider that is being built have they proved anything and does it actually work or is it a theory with no written proof. Has science proven there is no God as written about in books, scrolls walls. People that believe in God aren't afraid of science...it seems people that believe only in science are afraid of God. I pose a question or something to ponder...it seems easier for people to believe only in something that is tangible..and if that is the case do scientists/people that believe only in science believe in luck, chance, karma and so on and can science prove any of that. I think it is more difficult to have a faith and believe we have a true purpose in our lives other then it was by a freak collision that started life started and we as a people still managed to survive by luck and no sense of purpose.
WBraun

climber
Mar 16, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
Modern science is nihilistic due to not understanding the science of the soul.

Watch anyone when they say "ME" they point to the heart or chest.

Never to their head.

The spirit soul (individual) is seated within the heart.

When someone makes mistake they generally point to their head or bang their head, etc etc.

Youngun -- "Religion generally relies on making theories ..."

Stupid statement and making up sh!t again .......

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 16, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
TD,

Using your own words, what makes you believe that your God and your book(s) are the only "right" path? Were you brought up to believe these things from an early age? I'm fascinated by people who absolutely believe in their one version of God as well as those who absolutely believe there is no God at all.

I have had long talks with folks who have knocked at my door offering me salvation through their God's graces. I believe I frustrate them however and they rarely return. That's not my intent.

jstan

climber
Mar 16, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
Luggi:
In your post you use the word "proof" repeatedly. The idea of "proof" in an absolute, permanent, and inviolable sense is a fiction. A fiction that only misleads us.

In high school you studied Euclid's plane geometry in which theorems were proven. Euclid was a genius and he knew that were one of his starting axioms not correct in some particular place, his proof was not correct - in that particular place. Euclid gave us a process we could use to move more logically based upon our observations. That is what science also does.

An absolute truth has not yet been found.

Edit:

Werner:
Which meaning of the word "soul" would you like to have science work on?

By the way, none of the definitions below possess observables allowing quantification.

1soul noun \ˈsōl\

Definition of SOUL

1
: the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life
2
a : the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe
b capitalized Christian Science : god 1b
3
: a person's total self
4
a : an active or essential part
b : a moving spirit : leader
5
a : the moral and emotional nature of human beings
b : the quality that arouses emotion and sentiment
c : spiritual or moral force : fervor
6
: person <not a soul in sight>
7
: personification <she is the soul of integrity>
8
a : a strong positive feeling (as of intense sensitivity and emotional fervor) conveyed especially by black American performers
b : negritude
c : soul music
d : soul food
e : soul brother
See soul defined for English-language learners »
See soul defined for kids »

BDoog

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 16, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
Interactive universe
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 16, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
Fear

Thanks for sharing.

I have had short talks with people coming to my door to convince me there is a god and that I should believe in him or end up in hell. I ask them how they know there is a god and they always end up telling me it's written in the book. I ask them which book and they say the bible. I then tell them there is a book where it is written that god is dead, the author being Nietzsche. Then they soon leave.

When someone near and dear to me is in trouble there are times when I fold my hands and pray to God.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 16, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
Toadgas,

From a humanistic point of view I agree with your statement...but from a spiritual standpoint, it means nothing (vanity). I made the decision to believe in God (God is spirit), therefore, the battle isn't carnal, but spiritual, and it's not about me, but about Him, God, God gets the glory, for science, scientists, medical progress, E=mc2, suffering, etc. And with that I'm also finding out that we've been lied to, with all our wonderful "stinkin' thinkin'!"

MAN, God is good!
luggi

Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
Mar 16, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
Jstan...got it thanks....
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 16, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
TD

If you go to the "Encourage the Discouraged" show tonight and one of the encouraged tells you to fight the devil growing in the east and that dying for your country fighting this devil will bring you to heaven - be sure to discourage the encouraged.

By the way: GOD is not great.
BDoog

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 16, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
Many in the recovery movement are brainwashed. Faith can be an addiction too.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 16, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
God is absolute.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 16, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
Prove it.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Mar 16, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
i got an idea,

it's called,


mind your own bidness, and you won't be postin mine,

go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Mar 16, 2012 - 02:07pm PT
John 14:1 “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And you know the way where I am going.” 5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 16, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
Marlow, thank God for your pain...that's good! Glory to God!
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 16, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
michaeld,

Absolute

AB'SOLUTE,a. [L. absolutus. See Absolve.] 1. Literally,in a general sense,free,independent of any thing extraneous. Hence, 2. Complete in itself; positive; as an absolute declaration. 3. Unconditional,as an absolute promise. 4. Existing independent of any other cause,as God is absolute. 5. Unlimited by extraneous power or control, as an absolute government or prince. 6. Not relative,as absolute space.

Absolve

ABSOLVE',v.t. abzolv',[L. absolvo,from ab and solvo,to loose or release; to absolve,to finish; Heb. to loose or loosen. See Solve.] To set free or release from some obligation,debt or responsibility; or from that which subjects a person to a burden or penalty; as to absolve a person from a promise; to absolve an offender,which amounts to an acquittal and remission of his punishment. Hence, in the civil law,the word was used for acquit; and in the canon law, for forgive,or a sentence of remission. In ordinary language,its sense is to set free or release from an engagement. Formerly,good writers used the word in the sense of finish,accomplish; as to absolve work,in Milton; but in this sense,it See ms to be obsolete.

Solve

SOLVE,v.t. solv. [L. solvo.] 1. Properly,to loosen or separate the parts of any thing; hence,to explain; to resolve; to eclaircise; to unfold; to clear up; as what is obscure or difficult to be understood; as,to solve questions; to solve difficulties or a problem. When God shall solve the dark decrees of fate. 2. To remove; to dissipate; as,to solve doubts. - Noah Webster
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Mar 16, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
Looks like a great project....

But I guess this is the problem with being an atheist....

I'm not too interested in others atheism....

I've got my own and I have no guilt about it.


Here's what I can bank on:
When confronted by a true believer, and if it becomes overly tense, I will test their faith:
'Oh yeah? Your a true believer? You believe everything in the bible? You follow the scriptures?

So, why don't you kill me?
If you believe so deeply and you really really think that god exists and is watching your every move and knows your thoughts... Then you should stone me to death and send me to hell. For your god told you so.
And don't give me that sh#t about man made laws... You're working on a higher level - you have the blessings of your imaginary friend.
Come on, do it!

Wait....

Where you going?

I'm still alive!!!'


(Note to the theists of ST: Please feel free to stone me if you ever see me. I'm sure it would only take a pebble strike to the head to do the trick. Don't worry, if the job is done right I won't be mad. And I won't be ghosting you... those don't exist neither!!!)
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 17, 2012 - 12:20am PT
TD

You says: "Marlow, thank God for your pain...that's good! Glory to God!"

You're a strange man. There is no pain, only a great calmness. Have you got pain? Make the world a better place to be! At present I think you may be confusing yourself with your God.

Have a nice night and a bright day!
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Mar 17, 2012 - 06:02am PT
Hook line and sinker!
photo not found
Missing photo ID#241233
John 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 17, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
Marlow,

I sensed an uneasiness of mind; a disquietude; a bit of anxiety; possibly a solicitude for the future; hence "pain," in your response.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 17, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
Ok TD. What does that tell you about your sensing?
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 17, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
It tells me to, "thank God for your pain...that's good! Glory to God!"

Again, when I see responses such as yours, I see myself at one time. I'm free from that now and I, "thank God" for it, for "He first loved (suffered for) us"!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 17, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
The question to ask yourself is, do you believe that at one point a talking snake existed?


Maybe not. But some of us old timers remember a talking horse, Ed by name.

Dig it:

A horse is a horse, of course of course,
and no one can talk to a horse of course,
that is of course, unless the horse,
Is the famous Mister Ed!

Go right to the source and ask the horse.
He'll give you the answer that you'll endorse.
He's always on a steady course.
Talk to Mister Ed.

People yak-it-ti-yak a streak
and waste your time of day,
but Mister Ed will never speak,
unless he has something to say...

A horse is a horse, of course of course,
And this one will talk 'til his voice is hoarse.
You never heard of a talking horse?
Well, listen to this...

I am Mister Ed

--


You see. There is a God.

JL


Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 17, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
Thanks for the memories JL...that was good!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 17, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
And then there was the Friendly Giant, a delightful program that included Rusty the Rooster and Jerome the Giraffe, both of whom could talk. Not to mention Angie and Fiddle, the Jazz Cats - but they couldn't talk. I saw it all on TV - it must be true. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Friendly_Giant
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 17, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
I always liked this one as well:


Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale,
A tale of a fateful trip
That started from this tropic port
Aboard this tiny ship.

The mate was a mighty sailing man,
The skipper brave and sure.
Five passengers set sail that day
For a three hour tour, a three hour tour.

The weather started getting rough,
The tiny ship was tossed,
If not for the courage of the fearless crew
The minnow would be lost, the minnow would be lost.

The ship set ground on the shore of this uncharted desert isle
With Gilligan
The Skipper too,
The millionaire and his wife,
The movie star
The professor and Mary Ann,
Here on Gilligans Isle.


So this is the talel of the castways,
They're here for a long, long time,
They'll have to make the best of things,
It's an uphill climb.

The first mate and the Skipper too,
Will do their very best,
To make the others comfortable,
In the tropic island nest.

No phone, no lights no motor cars,
Not a single luxury,
Like Robinson Crusoe,
As primative as can be.

So join us here each week my freinds,
You're sure to get a smile,
From seven stranded castways,
Here on "Gilligan's Isle."

Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 17, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
OT, but now that we're bringing back the classics, how about this one JL:

Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 17, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
...and this one:

go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Mar 17, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
Balaam’s Donkey
Numbers 22:21 Balaam got up in the morning, saddled his donkey and went with the Moabite officials. 22 But God was very angry when he went, and the angel of the LORD stood in the road to oppose him. Balaam was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him. 23 When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with a drawn sword in his hand, it turned off the road into a field. Balaam beat it to get it back on the road.
24 Then the angel of the LORD stood in a narrow path through the vineyards, with walls on both sides. 25 When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, it pressed close to the wall, crushing Balaam’s foot against it. So he beat the donkey again.

26 Then the angel of the LORD moved on ahead and stood in a narrow place where there was no room to turn, either to the right or to the left. 27 When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, it lay down under Balaam, and he was angry and beat it with his staff. 28 Then the LORD opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam, “What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?”

29 Balaam answered the donkey, “You have made a fool of me! If only I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now.”

30 The donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?”

“No,” he said.

31 Then the LORD opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown.

32 The angel of the LORD asked him, “Why have you beaten your donkey these three times? I have come here to oppose you because your path is a reckless one before me.[a] 33 The donkey saw me and turned away from me these three times. If it had not turned away, I would certainly have killed you by now, but I would have spared it.”

34 Balaam said to the angel of the LORD, “I have sinned. I did not realize you were standing in the road to oppose me. Now if you are displeased, I will go back.”

35 The angel of the LORD said to Balaam, “Go with the men, but speak only what I tell you.” So Balaam went with Balak’s officials.

36 When Balak heard that Balaam was coming, he went out to meet him at the Moabite town on the Arnon border, at the edge of his territory. 37 Balak said to Balaam, “Did I not send you an urgent summons? Why didn’t you come to me? Am I really not able to reward you?”

38 “Well, I have come to you now,” Balaam replied. “But I can’t say whatever I please. I must speak only what God puts in my mouth.”

39 Then Balaam went with Balak to Kiriath Huzoth. 40 Balak sacrificed cattle and sheep, and gave some to Balaam and the officials who were with him. 41 The next morning Balak took Balaam up to Bamoth Baal, and from there he could see the outskirts of the Israelite camp.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 17, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
Then you should stone me to death and send me to hell. For your god told you so.

Jingy,

Not quite:

"Jesus said unto him (doubting Thomas), Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matthew 22:37-40

You see, it's not about you.
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Mar 17, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
No, of course not. Got a great reminder of that today, holy roller church group at the ropes course. Spent twenty minutes coaxing and coaching a kid up the climbing wall, dealing with his fear of heights, telling him to trust the rope, how to use his feet, reminding him to breathe, step-by-step-by-step beta. A small crowd of his friends and family also shouting encouragement, basically repeating everything I told him, but way louder.

Finally, after what seemed forever he got to the top.....




Wait for it......











"PRAISE JESUS! PRAISE JESUS! YOU MADE IT!"


Luckily, they were able to interpret my big grin as some form of endorsement. Heh.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Mar 17, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
You see, it's not about you.


Funny.... Someone else once told me the opposite:


(however the republitard removed the post immortalizing their personal view on me after the fact:
They either cam to feel shamed by what they had written.... or

They figured out that through time others may be able to clearly determine their weak stance)

Too bad for you... you missed out "Truthfeller"
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 17, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
349 Folks have pledged $28K (3/17/12)! Have you pledged?

Not sure why Alex's opinion on this is that important, though he says:

I was approached about appearing in this book and I think it's a great idea. It annoys me that most folks assume atheists are somehow immoral. I think I lead a rich and full life and I'm happy to support this project. If anyone else is so inclined check out the web site, the author is trying to raise funds to make the book a reality.

Mitt Romney would pay the whole $95K if his opinion counted as much.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 18, 2012 - 03:12am PT
TD

To recapitulate:

You said: “Marlow, thank God for your pain...that's good! Glory to God!”

My answer: You're a strange man. There is no pain, only a great calmness. Have you got pain? … ”

Your respons: “I sensed an uneasiness of mind; a disquietude; a bit of anxiety; possibly a solicitude for the future; hence "pain," in your response.”

My answer: “Ok TD. What does that tell you about your sensing?”

Your respons: It tells me to, "thank God for your pain...that's good! Glory to God!" Again, when I see responses such as yours, I see myself at one time. I'm free from that now and I, "thank God" for it, for "He first loved (suffered for) us"!”

To sum it up:

You read an “uneasiness of mind; a disquietude; a bit of anxiety” and so on, into my post. I tell you that I am calm and I ask you what that tells you about your sensing (that is: when I am calm and you read uneasiness of mind, anxiety and so on into me). And you repeat: “It tells me to, "thank God for your pain...that's good! Glory to God!" and then you add that when you see my respons you see yourself at one time and declare that you are free from that now.

Conclusion:

This is a perfect example of projection TD. You are projecting your own old thoughts and feelings (uneasiness of mind; a disquietude; a bit of anxiety and so on) into me and then declare to be free from them. At the same time - through this projection - you prove that the old way of thinking is still there inside your mind and heart. You strive to be free of it by reading it into other people. That’s strange. Not unusual, and not necessarily dangerous if you are not put into a position of authority.

I will not keep on showing you your mind in operation unless you yourself want to. Do you want me to challenge your thinking?
WBraun

climber
Mar 18, 2012 - 07:19am PT
This is a perfect example of projection TD.

So are you, you don't even know the guy at all.

Mirror mirror on the wall .....
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Mar 18, 2012 - 07:30am PT

Proverbs 16:20 He who heeds the word wisely will find good,
And whoever trusts in the Lord, happy is he.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 18, 2012 - 08:51am PT
Lolli

You are right. I am not projecting my own thoughts and feelings into TD. I am using the thoughts and feelings he is describing to me.

WBraun

I don't expect valid data, sound reasoning or conclusions following from valid data and sound reasoning from you... LOL... I see you as Largo's, God's, "the-main-server-of-life's" and maybe also TD's own spinning choirboy... There is no shame in being a spinning choirboy in the world of today, but it does not add anything to our knowledge. It's your choice.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 18, 2012 - 10:06am PT
I don't expect valid data, sound reasoning or conclusions following from valid data and sound reasoning from you... LOL... I see you as Largo's, God's, "the-main-server-of-life's" and maybe also TD's own spinning choirboy... There is no shame in being a spinning choirboy in the world of today, but it does not add anything to our knowledge. It's your choice.
--


The reason we chide and heckle and laugh at you Marlow and tell you to get back into that corner is owing to your glaring blind spot: That it never apparently occurred to you that there is "knowledge" beyond measuring, and that said knowledge is built on valid data and is not a refutation of sound reasoning nor yet is it the imaginings of a "spinning choirboy," whoever that is. But wait, there's more. You've gone so far as to place intellectual virtue on your own blind spot, and that is what makes some of us wonder if you're not working the "shine" when no one is looking.

That'll kill you, Marlow.

JL
jstan

climber
Mar 18, 2012 - 10:13am PT
"knowledge" beyond measuring,

Not following you John.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 18, 2012 - 10:43am PT
Largo

You say:
“The reason we chide and heckle and laugh at you Marlow and tell you to get back into that corner is owing to your glaring blind spot: That it never apparently occurred to you that there is "knowledge" beyond measuring, and that said knowledge is built on valid data and is not a refutation of sound reasoning nor yet is it the imaginings of a "spinning choirboy," whoever that is. But wait, there's more. You've gone so far as to place intellectual virtue on your own blind spot, and that is what makes some of us wonder if you're not working the "shine" when no one is looking.”

My answer:
You are as usual setting up your own strawman and then start talking to him.

I'm not talking valid data just as "measurable" data, whatever that is to you. In this instance the words of TD and TD's own reasoning are valid data as good as any.

Show me the blindness you indicate Largo, and do it in an honest way. Use my own words as data, use your own reasoning and conclude in a way that gives other people the chance to examine your reasoning. What you do now is what you usually do. You conclude from the top of your ladder of inference. Your reasoning is sloppy and hermetically self-confirming.

My reasoning is serving me well. My reasoning has a self-healing effect since I never have to fight imagined persons, strawmen, ghosts and windmills.

You're absolutely free to chide and heckle and laugh at me. Your problem is that this is telling a story about you, and not about me. If I had been chiding and heckling and laughing at you, that would have told a story about me. There are some simple facts in life you still have to learn Largo.
jstan

climber
Mar 18, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
More generally, we just don’t know what to do with the internet and end up wasting a lot of time,

I have to ask. How many of us discuss all of the time with others questions like social security and the, now, many wars? Is it not true in this age of the automobile and tract houses - we generally avoid talking to each other? Discuss only safe topics?

Then we come to the internet where many people adopt a personality entirely unlike the one they display face to face – and try to talk important issues. Are we surprised by the mess that results?

We are able to talk about unimportant issues, like whether it is raining out. Everyone has a great time. What is the difference between the important and the unimportant?

One difference is that for the important, one feels the need to correct others. What one person thinks is true affects us. This is a very touchy issue in any forum, even when everyone is displaying their true face to face personality. Many is the colloquim I have sat through where someone not understanding the issue has advanced something clearly wrong and were just ignored. Correcting their understanding was not the purpose of the meeting. Even something as vital( to them) of their understanding, was not considered important to the group.

In a reasoned culture, data is considered one avenue for reaching agreement. So here we find yet another barrier to good use of the internet, in addition to that presented by the faux personality problem. A significant number of people place no value or credence in data.

We could just admit defeat and give up. Unfortunately nature’s answer then obtains. People just start killing each other. As people are doing now, most places where you look,

One form, albeit a rather unimaginative one, of population control.

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 18, 2012 - 07:46pm PT
Marlow, you need to bone up on your terms. "Straw man" arguments are not what you are saying - unless you are using this term to indicate that I have not refuted your "position" on reality, as logical and well reasoned as you purport it to be.

In fact what you have repeatedly offered are argumentum ad hominem attacks on spirituality whereby you ascribe all kinds of silly, faux literary slogans and superstitious religious traits to anything that does not square with a quantifying, bottom-up materialist model. And even going the next step and insisting that for the lack of physical evidence, all things/non-things spiritual are merely imagined. You apparently missed the Reynoso's argument about the folly of doing this - but I won't repeat it here.

Are so-called spiritual realms concrete in the way that Half Dome and El Cap are minerals. Nobody sober is saying that. Insisting that said realms must be minerals, so to speak, shows a rigidity of mind which at once preserves your extant world view and your blind spot. Placing virtue on your blind spot, citing you capacity for clear thought and well-reasoned materialist arguments per issues that are clearly otherwise makes you the left-brain equivalent of a hayseed or a yokel.

Approaching spirituality with suspicions, logic and sanity are prerequisites. Insisting that the spiritual conform to your existing, materialist POV is like trying to lyback the generator Crack. Lybacking is an invaluable technique. But the Generator Crack demands something else. To insist that lybacking is the only valid technique is to misrepresent both lybacking and the Generator Crack, and shows, rather clearly, that while you understand some of the terrain, you are totally in the dark on the rest of it because it looks nothing like your home turf.

But nobody's going to beg you off your corner of the world. That requires a giant step into the unimaginable. And that's not for everyone - that much is a certainty.

JL
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 18, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
Marlow,

Really, its a lot simpler than the confusion you are creating. We are obviously at odds as to, "that," with which I am "free" from. Allow me to explain:

that = sin

I am free from the power and penalty of sin. By your response, I saw myself, as I once was, a sinner, eternally separated from God upon my physical death. I may be wrong about you on this but either way, my response was in this context.



What I see happening here, between our exchange, is beautifully elaborated on in these verses. Please take a moment to read:

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:"


Why?.....................


"29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord" 1 Corinthians 1:18-31.



Edit: God is much greater than us Marlow, glory to God!
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 18, 2012 - 08:40pm PT
MAN God is good!
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 18, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
Shaking my head in awe, WHAT A GOD!
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 18, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
All the glory to you heavenly Father, for saving a worm like me.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 18, 2012 - 08:53pm PT
You're f*cking crazy man.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 18, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
Crazy about His Word Mike....I don't know what else to say but, thank God!
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 18, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
...and you're not the first to respond like that:

"And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad. But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness." - Acts 26:24-25 KJV
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 18, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
Wait, there is a guy in the bible named Festus?

Lol.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 19, 2012 - 08:23am PT
...and Michael, he was an angel.
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Mar 19, 2012 - 08:43am PT
Yeah, Marlow, stop all those argumentum ad hominem attacks on spirituality, ya left-brain equivalent of a hayseed or a yokel!
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Mar 19, 2012 - 09:41am PT
-



AND it came to be...that Festus begat Uncle Fester


vvv

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRK6LTgg-Gc



-
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 19, 2012 - 09:52am PT
My angels.

photo not found
Missing photo ID#241460
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 19, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
Largo

You says:
"In fact what you have repeatedly offered are argumentum ad hominem attacks on spirituality whereby you ascribe all kinds of silly, faux literary slogans and superstitious religious traits to anything that does not square with a quantifying, bottom-up materialist model. And even going the next step and insisting that for the lack of physical evidence, all things/non-things spiritual are merely imagined. You apparently missed the Reynoso's argument about the folly of doing this - but I won't repeat it here."

Answer:
Once again you build your own strawman with the qualities you want to put into him and then start talking to him. There is no clear connection to what I have written. It's an abstract rant: "argumentum ad hominem attacks on spirituality whereby you ascribe all kinds of silly, faux literary slogans and superstitious religious traits to anything that does not square with a quantifying, bottom-up materialist model". The rant is your choice. You're off on your own trip hearing like the deaf. As argumentation it's very primitive.

Cintune

OMG! ... LOL...
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Mar 19, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
MAN God is good!

woMAN god
even greater.

modern western religion
is just an excuse for
having a
religious
experience.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Mar 19, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
If you think that someone is closed minded because they cannot see your point of view then you are being closed-minded in not seeing the possibility that your point of view is wrong.

You all need to open your minds to all of the the possibilities, not just the ones that fit your current beliefs. Maybe Marlow needs to accept that there may be a spiritual side of things and maybe WB and Largo need to accept that maybe there is just the physical and nothing more.

Until the people at both sides of an argument want to hear what the other is saying, there is only monologue, not dialogue.

Dave

P.S. Someone here needs to go to Wikipedia and look up "Straw Man". Misrepresenting an opponents position is so commonplace here that pointing it is fairly... pointless.

rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Mar 19, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
Oh, I forgot to say "I LOVE ST!"

Dave
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 19, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
You all need to open your minds to all of the the possibilities, not just the ones that fit your current beliefs. Maybe Marlow needs to accept that there may be a spiritual side of things and maybe WB and Largo need to accept that maybe there is just the physical and nothing more.
-----


What made you think we haven't considered that "there is just the physical and nothing more?" If a merely physical explanation was satisfactory to me I would accept it at once. It is not, though not because it would preclude any beliefs in doctrine or scripture, but rather because bottom-up materialism is riddled with holes as a logical construct nor does it square with my direct experience.

I have been rallying here for months that people open up their minds to the possibilities that just maybe they are betting against themselves, that reality is perhaps larger and more inclusive that what they can measure, and in turn I am told to open up my mind to a smaller view of reality, but at least one that we can demonstrate in material terms. Now who is close minded?

Next, Supertopo's own freckled stepson, Marlow, denies that he has all along championed a materialist POV that dismisses the entire spiritual universe as peopled by so many "spinning choirboys," rubes, charletans and delusional wankers who lack the discipline of mind to get it right and to stick with the facts. IMO, all subtleties and nuance are lost on this silly boy who has never bothered marching out of basecamp, but would speculate on the upper reaches anyhow. He'll just think his way there and call it good. But it never works that way - we can easily see why.

But all kidding aside (Marlow is an easy mark and it's my folly to keep screwing around with this but it's a riot), if I am indeed addressing a straw man with my arguments (rants), then what, exactly are you saying per the spiritual (NOT the religious) world above and beyond the standard materialist swill that it is all imagined, is based on beliefs entirely supplanted by hard science, has no material proof - as required for something to be "real" and authentic - is not soundly reasoned, is illogical, is fear-based, is yet another incarnation of Biblical God stuff, and (fill in the blank).

Curious to hear this one . . .

JL
WBraun

climber
Mar 19, 2012 - 08:44pm PT
Have you ever seen the wind?

You've never seen it, yet it exists ......
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Mar 21, 2012 - 09:23pm PT
The question to ask yourself is, do you believe that at one point a talking snake existed?

Usually out the side of their mouth!

When someone takes the parking spot you've been waiting for or runs ahead of you to beat you to the end of a line when you were almost there, you say you were just snaked!

Being a snake isn't cool, and that is bona fide!
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 21, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
I knew this reminded me of something.

Hubert Lindsey, Berkeley CA
Hubert Lindsey, Berkeley CA
Credit: zBrown

BITD Hubert Lindsey was a prosletizer (favorite phrase "bless your {wicked, dirty, sinful} heart sinner"), who I ran into in Berkeley. He drew a small crowd and folks argued with him till they got bored. Hubert never did get bored and he stuck with it till he died in 2003. Some few folks have come forward and testified that he changed their lives (kinda wonder if he changed their deaths or afterlife). So what?
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
can we get back to how RAD A. Honnold is?
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 22, 2012 - 06:20am PT
First, "he" didn't change anybody's lives, God did through Hubert Lindsey.

"So what?"

If only I/everyone could ever see their "children" again after I/they leave this earth.



Edit: Alex is RAD!
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 22, 2012 - 06:49am PT
That story reminds me of this story of Hezekiah:

2 Chronicles 30:1-10, 18-20 KJV

"And Hezekiah sent to all Israel and Judah, and wrote letters also to Ephraim and Manasseh, that they should come to the house of the Lord at Jerusalem, to keep the passover unto the Lord God of Israel. For the king had taken counsel, and his princes, and all the congregation in Jerusalem, to keep the passover in the second month. For they could not keep it at that time, because the priests had not sanctified themselves sufficiently, neither had the people gathered themselves together to Jerusalem. And the thing pleased the king and all the congregation. So they established a decree to make proclamation throughout all Israel, from Beer–sheba even to Dan, that they should come to keep the passover unto the Lord God of Israel at Jerusalem: for they had not done it of a long time in such sort as it was written. So the posts went with the letters from the king and his princes throughout all Israel and Judah, and according to the commandment of the king, saying, Ye children of Israel, turn again unto the Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and he will return to the remnant of you, that are escaped out of the hand of the kings of Assyria. And be not ye like your fathers, and like your brethren, which trespassed against the Lord God of their fathers, who therefore gave them up to desolation, as ye see. Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the Lord, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever: and serve the Lord your God, that the fierceness of his wrath may turn away from you. For if ye turn again unto the Lord, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the Lord your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him. So the posts passed from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh even unto Zebulun: but they laughed them to scorn, and mocked them..."

"...But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, The good Lord pardon every one That prepareth his heart to seek God, the Lord God of his fathers, though he be not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary. And the Lord hearkened to Hezekiah, and healed the people."
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:03am PT
...or when Paul spoke:

Acts 17:22-34 KJV

"Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. So Paul departed from among them. Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them."
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 22, 2012 - 07:27am PT
...and finally, after being tortured, as Jesus Christ was being lead to His glorious death:

Luke 23:27-43 KJV

"And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry? And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death. And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God. And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar, And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself. And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 22, 2012 - 11:46am PT
First, "he" didn't change anybody's lives, God did through Hubert Lindsey.

Actually these people changed their own lives, perhaps under the influence of Hubert.

When you say God did it, how would you know? Are you saying God is responsible for everything that happens? Say that someone says something stupid, is that God talking out the other side of God's mouth?

I would guess that people are walking away from you faster than they did from Hubert. BTW bless your dirty little heart, sinner.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 22, 2012 - 11:53am PT
You do realize quoting the bible doesn't prove anything right TD?
I can quote stuff from the Book of Scientology for you, here let me google something real quick.

googleing


Trillions of years ago, long before anything as we know it existed, there were countless immortal beings known as “thetans,” who found themselves bored with eternal life. In an effort to rid themselves of the doldrums, they decided to collectively create the universe and everything in it. Their hope was to have a realm in which to play the “Game of Life” and pass the time. But the thetans soon faced a problem on which they had not planned. As “spiritual” beings, they could not function within their “physical” creation. The thetans solved this dilemma by building bodies for themselves, the human form being only one of many different appearances.

Take that Adam and Eve.
Besides, doesn't God only accept 144,000 people into Heaven before he Master Locks those gates?

What makes you so special? Heaven is full I hear.


I believe everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, it's when people like you start pouring it out and telling us we're wrong for not believing it that p*sses me off.

Those books were written to make you BELIEVE them. Word for word. And if I'm completely wrong and your God is real, wouldn't I be the first for him to forgive? Or would he be a hypocrite by forgiving a non believer?

I went to a Catholic school for 8 years. 45 minutes of bible study every morning for the first 6 years, 1.5 hours for the next two. I know it pretty well. I don't know it verse for verse like you do.

And I hope to GOD you didn't type out those quotes word for word.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 22, 2012 - 12:51pm PT
No reason to get angry over someone quoting from their favorite book. I think what I see simply as 2000 year old stories makes sense to certain people who are lost either due to traumatic circumstances or who were otherwise looking for answers. You could find salvation in a IRS document if you looked hard enough.

Endless cut n' pasting of such texts is a little pointless though TD... If you could offer more of your own interpretation that'd be much more interesting.
WBraun

climber
Mar 22, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
michaeld ..... you're really weird.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 22, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
The power of the spirit around 2005:

"Since the Middle Ages, Limbo has been for Catholics a place (in Dante's vision, a castle) where the souls of unbaptised children go. Aborted foetuses, too. But a 30-strong commission of theologians established by John Paul II has concluded that a nicer destiny is necessary - namely that all children who die do so in the expectation of "the universal salvation of God", whether baptised or not. "In effect, this means that all children who die go to Heaven," a papal source told the Times earlier this week.

The Pope's announcement will end centuries of heartlessness typified by Pope Pius X (1903-14), who declared Limbo to be a place where the unbaptised "do not have the joy of God but neither do they suffer . . . they do not deserve Paradise, but neither do they deserve Hell or Purgatory". What a revolting invocation of deserts! Instead, the Catholic church now believes that God wishes all souls to be saved.

Today Limbo's children will be able to scamper with their satchels and protractors towards Heaven, where - fingers crossed - God will make Heavenly sandwiches for packed lunches."
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 22, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
Ah WBraun is right. I'm really f*cking weird. Don't get mad at him.

No reason to get angry over someone quoting from their favorite book.
And, I'm not mad? I'm just speaking the sense in my mind. I guess i'm more Realist than Religious. Kinda hard not to be. But hey, i'm young dumb and full of... well a lot of things, opinions being one of them I suppose.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Mar 22, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
The weirdest one here is Werner

He says that human were living on earth for Trillions of years,
life forms live on all planets
matter is temporary

and back in the Day, Humans could levitate 200 ton rocks with ease!!!

Of course he doesn't have any proof for these things being true, he read about them in some book, so in his mind, they must be true.

But everything we say, according to Werner is wrong, because its not written in the book he believes.

Its all about which book you believe, according to the believers.

Or you can not believe any book, and be free from the shackles of Religion.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 22, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
Everyone should believe in what makes them feel the best about them selves.

Don't shove it down other people's throats, or tell them they're wrong. If you're going to, then prove they're wrong.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Mar 22, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
I can Prove Werner wrong.

The earth is only 4.5 billion years Old!!!
How could humans live on earth before the Big Bang even happened?

All we need is one human to levitate a pencil to prove that levitation is possible, but No one can.
No one has ever levitated pencil with an accountable witness watching.

Matter (atoms) can not be created or destroyed, so hence is Not temporary
Pluto is too cold for any life to live on.

Case closed.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 22, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
Though watching Stephen Hawkins universe show thing on Netflix is kind of interesting. The Alien episode, where there could be life under sheets of ice on a moon around Jupiter or Saturn or something. Kind of cool. That guy is smart... Or quite creative nonetheless.
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Mar 22, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
Actually, I thought the scientology move was quite funny.
Thanks for the laugh Michael!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 22, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
I think what I see simply as 2000 year old stories makes sense to certain people who are lost either due to traumatic circumstances or who were otherwise looking for answers.


There are only so many stories and we are still telling the same ones to ourselves over and over and over. If you think you can replace these narratives with facts and figures, you are simply telling yourself another narrative - a very, very old one.

JL
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 10:37am PT
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/22/atheist-rally-billed-as-coming-out-moment-for-nonbelievers/?hpt=hp_t3

Westburo Baptist Church is going to be at an Atheist Rally to protest it. That should make the holy church look really good in front of those damned pesky Atheist devils!


If you aren't familiar with the WBC... I used a Louis Theroux video because he's kinda funny and really chill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmIr9P-vkSQ
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Mar 23, 2012 - 06:06pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#242012
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Mar 23, 2012 - 06:08pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#242013
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Mar 23, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#242014
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
Just an (ugly?) rumor maybe, but I heard someone posted a link to this page on Mr. Honnold's face page and he decided to go back in.

Anyway, if you search routes for "God" and "Devil", god comes out a winner 10 to 1. So I guess we can put this to bed huh!

You got a ten times better chance of going somewhere if you are looking for god, than if you go looking for the devil.

Edit: thanks go-b for the clearest presentaton of levitation technique yet.

luggi

Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
Mar 23, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
Michaeld..be careful when you quote from a science fiction writer...just saying
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 23, 2012 - 06:36pm PT
That being said, where is the proof that God isn't science fiction, and the bible isn't a science fiction novel?

PLEASE do not think I'm a Scientology believer... I do not have nearly enough money to be one.
luggi

Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
Mar 23, 2012 - 07:27pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

don't want to elaborate on already stated material...

readers digest....

Several authors, archeological evidence to support...and independent documentation from historians of the time.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Mar 23, 2012 - 08:18pm PT
Good Science fiction is better researched and more plausible than that
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
it's when people like you start pouring it out and telling us we're wrong for not believing it that p*sses me off.

I'm sure I haven't done this. As a matter of fact, I know I haven't. Glory to God for the persecution and evil, for His sake, for it was just this that nailed Christ to the cross and gave mankind the opportunity to accept his free gift. God is good.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 23, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
ZBrown,

I would guess that people are walking away from you faster than they did from Hubert. BTW bless your dirty little heart, sinner.

Sinner? You betcha!

Romans 3:10 KJV

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

Romans clarifies that one though for those that are saved:

Romans 6:1-23 KJV

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 24, 2012 - 05:50am PT
Mistaken Majority

“I am Thy servant…. It is time for Thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void Thy law…. Therefore I esteem all Thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way” (Psalm 119:125-128). “Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge, that I might make thee to know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?” (Proverbs 22:20,21). “As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (Luke 17:26,27).

Traditional sayings that many recite, Such as, “The majority rules”, Though widely accepted, are often not right, Embracing the dogma of fools.

IThe time has now come to examine the facts That many ignore in their pride, Regarding the truth of the Lord and His acts Of judgment when He was defied.

Historical judgments of God in the past Were never performed without warning, Yet in many ignored Him until at the last, When judgment then silenced their scorning.

Has not God recorded these things in His writing In Scripture and history’s pages? Has not He provided salvation, inviting A refuge in Christ through the ages?

We see an example from history taken: Majority crowds held their sway When Noah was mocked, yet they were mistaken, Till flood waters swept them away.

Lord, we are Your servants, redeemed by Your grace, Convinced that Your Scriptures are true. We’re seeking the favor alone of Your face, No matter what others may do." - Brother David Hall (http://quiettimepoems.blogspot.com/);.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 24, 2012 - 05:54am PT
dogma of fools

Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 24, 2012 - 06:03am PT
"The first indication of foolishness is misunderstanding." - RU Third Talk

"He that is slow to wrath is of great understanding: but he that is hasty of spirit exalteth folly." -- Prov 14:29

"Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools." - Ecc 7:9

Understand - See Under,see Stand (1828 Websters)

Under - Beneath; below; In a state of pupillage or subjection; In a less degree than., less than.,inferior to.,in a state of bearing or being burdened;,liability or obligation,In subordination to; in the state of protection or defense.

Stand - To be upon the feet; to be fixed or set; To remain upright; to have a certain position or location.

When we are in submission,less than,in a position of being up underneath and bearing the weight of a person,who may be exhibiting their shortcomings,we are actually in "a state of protection or defense." It is when we "stand-up" instead of to "under-stand" that person that we make ourselves vulnerable.

"He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down,and without walls." - Prov 25:28
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 24, 2012 - 06:08am PT
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 24, 2012 - 06:15am PT
Actually these people changed their own lives, perhaps under the influence of Hubert.

When you say God did it, how would you know? Are you saying God is responsible for everything that happens? Say that someone says something stupid, is that God talking out the other side of God's mouth?

I'm not sure why you're questioning when you've already answered your own question...???
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 24, 2012 - 06:24am PT
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 24, 2012 - 06:27am PT
Are you saying God is responsible for everything that happens? Say that someone says something stupid, is that God talking out the other side of God's mouth?

Again, where Paul is speaking to those that have "obeyed from the heat this form of doctrine:"

" Romans 6:16-23 KJV

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 24, 2012 - 06:44am PT


The Power of the Spirit!
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Mar 24, 2012 - 07:31am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#242064
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Mar 24, 2012 - 07:31am PT
Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are being taken away to death,
And those who are staggering to slaughter, Oh hold them back.
12 If you say, “See, we did not know this,”
Does He not consider it who weighs the hearts?
And does He not know it who keeps your soul?
And will He not render to man according to his work?
13 My son, eat honey, for it is good,
Yes, the honey from the comb is sweet to your taste;
14 Know that wisdom is thus for your soul;
If you find it, then there will be a future,
And your hope will not be cut off.

21 My son, fear the LORD and the king;
Do not associate with those who are given to change,
22 For their calamity will rise suddenly,
And who knows the ruin that comes from both of them?



Psalm 24
The King of Glory Entering Zion.
A Psalm of David.
1 The earth is the LORD’S, and all it contains,
The world, and those who dwell in it.
2 For He has founded it upon the seas
And established it upon the rivers.
3 Who may ascend into the hill of the LORD?
And who may stand in His holy place?
4 He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
Who has not lifted up his soul to falsehood
And has not sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive a blessing from the LORD
And righteousness from the God of his salvation.
6 This is the generation of those who seek Him,
Who seek Your face—even Jacob.
Selah.


7 Lift up your heads, O gates,
And be lifted up, O ancient doors,
That the King of glory may come in!
8 Who is the King of glory?
The LORD strong and mighty,
The LORD mighty in battle.
9 Lift up your heads, O gates,
And lift them up, O ancient doors,
That the King of glory may come in!
10 Who is this King of glory?
The LORD of hosts,
He is the King of glory.
Selah.


This is no game!






Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 24, 2012 - 08:01am PT
...to those that haven't obeyed that form of doctrine, our who are not "saved", or, "born again,"

John 8:42-47 KJV

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."

Revelation 20:15 KJV

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 24, 2012 - 08:34am PT
When you say God did it, how would you know?

Because of the "fruit" it produces, the result, the outcome. The product of an apple tree is an apple, a peach, a peach, etc.

Galatians 5:22-24 KJV

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Through the use of God's Word Hubert Lindsey produced lasting fruit:

" Luke 15:7 KJV

I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 24, 2012 - 08:38am PT
go-B and Truthdweller,

Way to hang in there.




go-B,

Thanks I needed to read and hear this . . .


Psalm 24
The King of Glory Entering Zion.
A Psalm of David.

1 The earth is the LORD’S, and all it contains,
The world, and those who dwell in it.
2 For He has founded it upon the seas
And established it upon the rivers.
3 Who may ascend into the hill of the LORD?
And who may stand in His holy place?
4 He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
Who has not lifted up his soul to falsehood
And has not sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive a blessing from the LORD
And righteousness from the God of his salvation.
6 This is the generation of those who seek Him,
Who seek Your face—even Jacob.
Selah.


:-))
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 24, 2012 - 09:02am PT
Klimmer,

Just responding with God's Word makes it all worth it, the joy and peace it brings is unfounded, nothing in my life comes close, Climbing became an addiction, a good addiction, if there is such a thing, but it didn't change my life the way God's Word has. Climbing isn't the truth, and it won't make you free from the bondage of sin. Jesus Christ is the Truth, and the Truth made me free, glory to God!

Although the minority, more peoples hearts will be pricked and will make the same decision that you and I did, as well as GoB, and others, and their lives, too, will be changed forever.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 24, 2012 - 09:31am PT
Sorry TruthDwelling Man, but I'm gonna have to walk away now. I've got a bible and can read it myself without you indexing it for me.

As Hubert and I both said "bless your wicked heart".

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 24, 2012 - 09:59am PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 24, 2012 - 11:03am PT
KING of Kings: Every Knee Will Bow, Every Tongue Confess
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIlXWOnbTlM

"Every Knee Will Bow, Every Tongue Confess: Isaiah 45:23 and Philippians 2:9-11"



Even Alex will bow and confess. We all will.







Alex, guess who gave you that incredible talent and confidence?

You might want to thank him for it.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 24, 2012 - 11:59am PT
I still don't get how quoting the book of "god" makes "god" real.

Can you quote something else? Maybe factual evidence of GOD?

I don't care about the people who wrote the book. They've had to exist at some point.

Find me physical signs of god. And don't say fruit, or any other physical object that science can explain.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 24, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
Alex, guess who gave you that incredible talent and confidence?
I'd imagine the skill came from climbing for hours non stop. His tendons being as strong as a bulldozer.

His mind? Confidence. But i'm sure you have an excuse for how God gave him that...

If God gave it to him, why not you? Are you not chosen? Why aren't you special? Go free solo Half Dome RNW to prove your god exists.

Sometimes it comes in the shape of a pill. You're telling me God made Viagra and gave the power for crusty old men like yourself to erect and last for s long, pleasurable time? Or was that science... No, science doesn't exist.


Did God make the terrorists of 9/11 kill 3000 people? (They claim he did)
Did God cause the Tsunami in Japan that killed 15,000 people?
Did God create Cancer, AIDS, etc?

Maybe you believe in God because "he" fears you into believing him?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Mar 24, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
There's no arguing dogma, there's no real discussion of deeply held belief. That's why I just shut the blinds and ignored the knocking when the religious proselytizers came by today. It must be a basic survival instinct to convert others to our way of seeing the world, from politics to religion. The more those around you see things the way you do, the better. It probably doesn't even matter what the substance of those beliefs are, as long as the group can come around them and support each other.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 24, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
Find me physical signs of god.
-----


When a DVD of Baby Jesus is not forthcoming, these conversations usually end. It is easy to see why.

What's perhaps more interesting is the question/thought experiment: Is it possible for you to imagine that you could be shown or might come to directly experience "proof" sufficient to answer your request. And if so, how might that alter your view or yourself and the universe?

JL

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 24, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
Mar 24, 2012 - 12:05pm PT


"Alex, guess who gave you that incredible talent and confidence?"

I'd imagine the skill came from climbing for hours non stop. His tendons being as strong as a bulldozer.

His mind? Confidence. But i'm sure you have an excuse for how God gave him that...

If God gave it to him, why not you? Are you not chosen? Why aren't you special? Go free solo Half Dome RNW to prove your god exists.

Sometimes it comes in the shape of a pill. You're telling me God made Viagra and gave the power for crusty old men like yourself to erect and last for s long, pleasurable time? Or was that science... No, science doesn't exist.


Did God make the terrorists of 9/11 kill 3000 people? (They claim he did)
Did God cause the Tsunami in Japan that killed 15,000 people?
Did God create Cancer, AIDS, etc?

Maybe you believe in God because "he" fears you into believing him?



That which is good is of GOD.

That which is bad is not.

There is a god of this World that does incredible evil to try to hurt the real true GOD and to try to destroy mankind, that he loves so much. Yes, Lucifer and the fallen angels have some limited powers and can even guide man-made events, as well as natural events on this Earth to some extent.

Read the Book of Job in the Bible. The curtain is pulled back for a moment for us to see what can spiritually take place in the background.

This world suffers from the wrath of Lucifer. "Misery loves company" as they say. He and his angels are already judged and doomed. They want to take as many humans down with them as they can. It will get worse before it gets better. This is the only way they can hurt GOD, and it does hurt GOD. One day it will get better. GOD triumphs and brings an end to Lucifer's reign. I look forward to that day, very longfully and hopefully.

Our good and wonderful inherited abilities and talents all come ultimately from GOD. He made everything, but he also gave us free will to do what we will. Some use these talents and abilites for good, some don't.

Alex's abilites and talents are inspirational. They are good. But he should give credit where credit is due.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 24, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
That which is good is of GOD.

That which is bad is not.

You do realize that this book is just making it sound like everything good that happens is because of god, but everything that's bad is happening because of the devil, right?

Pop out of fantasy world and tell me how you can believe this stuff please.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 24, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
There are many empirical evidences and "proofs" that weigh in the favor of GOD's existance and what he has said is wholly true in The Holy Bible.

He also came down in person and lived among us and showed us the way. And then at the end of that Earthly life he also laid down his life for us. He loves us that much. Death has no hold on him. He has concured and has power over death and therefore has given us salvation and hope.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 24, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
Credit: michaeld
luggi

Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
Mar 24, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
Michaeld....proof...well that is a definite tall order especially when people are skeptical and need rock hard proof of something before they believe it to be possible. This is my down and dirty stab at it. When one soldier survives and the rest of his squad is killed or severely injured. He or she will eventually ask "why them and not me" Some would say to them "wow your are lucky" or "count your lucky stars it was not you". However have you ever tried to wrap your head around that concept. What is luck? How do I find it...can I get more of it. Does it really even exist, can science prove that the concept of luck is available to anyone. At least with ones belief in God...not the religion part.. just God one can at least have some faith/belief in there might be another purpose for their lives as to the reason they survived. For me I prefer idea that there is a plan for my life, I am not just here out of some lucky "big bang", and I know that my life does have purpose.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Mar 24, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
Michaeld....proof...well that is a definite tall order especially when people are skeptical and need rock hard proof of something before they believe it to be possible.
One of the chief ironies of the fundamentalists in this country is they ask that people set aside their skepticism on one hand and then completely disregard scientific theories that meet rigorous standards of proof on the other.
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Mar 24, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
^^^

Yes, quite ironic that the Godiots would have us believe that for which there is absolutely zero evidence, and disbelieve the scientific theories which have massive amounts of evidence supporting them.
luggi

Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
Mar 24, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
Jebus...I once heard a statement that strikes a cord with me. The church...just the original concept.. was perfect until man walked in.

edit.. Lennox...really...show me the formula for luck....and that was a bs comment asswipe...like being labeled...and yes I am can get pissed. Back up your spew!
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Mar 24, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
"luck is probability taken personally"

--Penn Jillette




edit-- There ain't no such thing as luck, just like there is no god, so there is no way to provide scientific evidence-- and btw, speaking of spew, isn't a luggi something you cough up and spit out?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Mar 24, 2012 - 05:07pm PT
@luggi

"I hear crickets."

-Isn't that how you said it once...

.....

If someone's interested in climbing (nowadays), a beginner that is, you might encourage them to take a climbing class or two or go outdoors, spend some time in the hills, and get some experience. It'd just be common sense.

But how does one (politely) tell somebody in today's politically correct society to take some science courses to learn how the world works or to acquire a science education?

If only one could test science education on the rocks we'd have a lot of posters on this thread either decking off of 5.5 or failing to pull it. It's a shame they don't know this before posting their opines.

Truly, it's rather discouraging. But full steam ahead anyways.

.....

"it's a system that for centuries was comfortable with zero accountability"

Today's religions are historical institutions that are now learning lightning fast that the world is no longer comfortable with their being "comfortable with zero accountability." Finally at long last, in unprecedented measure, informed communities are holding their feet to the fire. (Not just regarding pedophilia, either.) In the interest of better practices.

I count this as a +1.
luggi

Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
Mar 24, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
You quote a magician and a juglar that made into showtime. Nice for the scientific community to buy into your post. Say what you will about my avatar...in the big scheme of things...shalom

HFCS..you are right...crickets...but science has not proven everything...they and even doctors cannot explain all that happens around us or to us. There is crap that happens to us that has no explanation. So how do scientists explain things that have no explanation scientifically.
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Mar 24, 2012 - 05:34pm PT
but science has not proven everything



And I could say that religion has not proven anything, but then I too might be guilty of argumentum ad ignorantiam.


God and Luck are human constructs. People have always had a tendency to take events personally.

If the crops were bad, it was because there was too much fornicating and God was angry and we'd better sacrifice some virgins. Or, My buddies were all blown up, and I alone survived--I'm either very lucky or God has a plan for me. It's all the same.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Mar 24, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
There is crap that happens to us that has no explanation. So how do scientists explain things that have no explanation scientifically.

What things can't be explained?
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Mar 24, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Mar 24, 2012 - 06:24pm PT
Luggi- I think the phrase "Science has not yet proven everything..." would be more appropriate. You are right, we don't know everything. But every day our knowledge base is expanding. Every day we gain a better understanding of the world around us.

I doubt we could ever know everything. It seems that whenever we answer one question we create several more. But to me the beauty of science is its adaptability. Even when our scientific understanding is wrong we learn and our knowledge base grows.

One of my problems with our most popular religions is that they are limited by bronze age dogma. They are incapable of adapting to new information or admitting their old beliefs could be inaccurate. I don't care for such stagnation.

That said, I'm not anti-religious. I just don't want religious people from any religion forcing their religious beliefs on others. If my religion told me that same-sex marriage is wrong, I would avoid marrying anyone of my same sex. End of story. Sadly, that is not good enough for many religious people.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Mar 24, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
There is crap that happens to us that has no explanation. So how do scientists explain things that have no explanation scientifically.

Mathematically.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 25, 2012 - 12:57am PT


The Power of the Spirit!
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 25, 2012 - 01:35am PT
The Power of the SPRIT!
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 25, 2012 - 01:38am PT
The power of the spirit.
perswig

climber
Mar 25, 2012 - 03:05am PT
^^
Thanks for that, Marlow.
Had to look up Vik Muniz, "Pictures of Garbage", and Waste Land. Beautiful stuff.

Dale
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Mar 25, 2012 - 08:24am PT
We all need a rest day...

Hebrews 4
The Believer’s Rest
1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”

although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”; 5 and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.” 6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,

“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

...but it takes faith and trust!


I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say

I heard the voice of Jesus say, “Come unto Me and rest;
Lay down, thou weary one, lay down Thy head upon My breast.”
I came to Jesus as I was, Weary, and worn, and sad;
I found in Him a resting place, and He has made me glad.
I heard the voice of Jesus say, “Behold, I freely give
The living water; thirsty one, Stoop down, and drink, and live.”
I came to Jesus, and I drank Of that life-giving stream;
My thirst was quenched, my soul revived, And now I live in Him.
I heard the voice of Jesus say, “I am this dark world’s Light;
Look unto Me, thy morn shall rise, And all the day be bright.”
I looked to Jesus, and I found In Him my Star, my Sun;
And in that Light of life I’ll walk, ’Til traveling days are done.
Lyrics by Horatius Bonar (1809–1889)
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 25, 2012 - 09:38am PT
I easily forget to mention the "Our Lord Cleese is Great"-point Lolli. I'm a lazy boy. Thanks for reminding us!
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Mar 25, 2012 - 11:08am PT
Colossians 2
You Are Built Up in Christ
1 For I want you to know how great a struggle I have on your behalf and for those who are at Laodicea, and for all those who have not personally seen my face, 2 that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God’s mystery, that is, Christ Himself, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument. 5 For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.
6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 25, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
"The right wing in American likes to think that the United States government was, at its inception, highly religious, specifically highly Christian, and -- and more to the point -- highly biblical." This was not true of that or any later government -- until 2000. Wills is particularly shrewd in delineating Karl Rove's part in bringing this about: While crediting the former White House advisor's mastery of electoral technologies, Wills argues that "his real skill lay in finding how to use religion as a political tool . . . . He shaped the hard core of the Republican Party around resentments religious people felt over abortion, homosexuality, Darwinism, women's liberation, pornography and school prayer . . . . Rove made the executive branch of the United States more openly and avowedly religious than it had ever been, though he had no discernible religious belief himself. His own indifference allowed him to be ecumenical in his appeal to Protestants, Catholics and Jews."
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 25, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
Around 2009 And still today?

"The news that Creation, Jon Amiel's biopic of Charles Darwin, made it all the way through the Toronto Film Festival - at which it was the opening-night feature - without securing an American distributor proves once and for all that the only kind of science the American religious right is prepared to put up with is science-fiction.

However, I'm astonished to learn that its producer, Jeremy Thomas, is "astonished" at the lukewarm American interest in the movie. The briefest glance at the low priority granted to science during the Bush administration is enough to show that - where objectively verifiable facts are concerned - the American right has taken a giant leap backwards, down to the knuckle-dragging, bulging-forehead stage of the evolutionary table. Just don't try telling these folks that their grandaddy was a chimp: they may have the smallest brains in America, but they also have the biggest guns.

All summer, thanks to the rancorous healthcare debate, we in the US have been favoured with an extended look right down the gullet - the yawning maw - of the fundamentalist American right. If we thought we had buried the hatreds of the past when we elected a black president a year ago, this summer was a salutary reminder that you just can't kill ignorance and religious bigotry, especially if large and wealthy corporations put their money behind it. This is a country where billionaires like Howard F Ahmanson Jr use their vast fortunes to inseminate such science-hating think-tanks as the Discovery Institute and the public-stoning-friendly Chalcedon Foundation - whose essential mission is, to quote Ahmanson himself, "The total integration of biblical law into our lives" (Handmaid's Tale alert!). People of this disposition cannot accept that we are somehow related to monkeys. You can say that about the new president, but not about the ape-like thugs shouting down US senators nationwide throughout August.

In contentedly secular Britain, meanwhile, Darwin's bicentenary has prompted a surge of national pride, which is perfectly appropriate when your country has produced the Einstein, the Galileo, the Turing of the natural sciences.

In America, the right has demonised On The Origin Of Species as if it were Mein Kampf ("Darwin: a racist, a bigot and 1800s naturalist whose legacy is mass murder" says Christian website Movieguide), with the result that a field theory condoned by 99% of scientists is only believed in by a paltry 43% of US citizens."
Jody

Mountain climber
Mar 26, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
You atheists better hope you are right.
SeanH

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Mar 26, 2012 - 06:01pm PT
You atheists better hope you are right.

Don't know you, so not sure if your comment should be taken at face value, but... as an atheist, I really hope I'm wrong! It would be really great, if after my body died, my consciousness lived on in some other plane, and even better if my loved ones were there.

On the other hand, if there really is a higher power/omnipotent creator, I can only hope he/she/it doesn't fault me for believing what logic and the sum of all of my experiences compels me to.
jstan

climber
Mar 26, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
Two days ago I was pouring concrete and for some reason thought of a valid test to see if there are actually any true believers out there.

All you do is call Ready Mix and ask if anyone has told them, "Don't measure the amount of water you put into the mixer.

God is taking care of me."

My guess is they have never received this instruction. Not once.

If they have not it proves one of two things.

1. There is no one who actually believes this stuff.

2. True believers never build anything.

You choose.

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 26, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
Why should the Atheists hope they're right?

Lol Jstan, i'll say it for them.

"Joseph was a carpenter, and a believer."

/yawn.

And that Moses guy built an ark while everyone else died. And somehow repopulated? I was never really sure where that story was going... And the ark is now some how on the moon? Wtf Mate.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
And that Moses guy built an ark while everyone else died. And somehow repopulated? I was never really sure where that story was going... And the ark is now some how on the moon? Wtf Mate.




C'mon. How long are you guys gonna use that joke regarding an "Ark on the Moon"? I called it that tongue-in-cheek, and to get a rise out of you all. It worked big-time.

C'mon it isn't Noah's Ark on the Moon. If anything it is an ET "Ark" of sorts. A Mothership if you will.

Heck, even Transformers: Dark of the Moon called the craft on the backside of the Moon an "Ark."

I stand vindicated.




You do all know that validation of UFOs/ET is evidence that points to GOD being real don't you?

If ETs are actually masquerading Fallen Angels/Nephilim/Demons, then GOD is real and what he says in The Good Book is true.

Ponder that.

You might want to read Leslie Kean's Book on UFOs/ET. They are here and its a real phenomenon.
UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record [Paperback] Leslie Kean (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307717089/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC?ie=UTF8&coliid=I7M5ZMCRSCLAU&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G



Even the famous PhD Jacques Vallee, who is not a Christian, figured it out. ETs are demonic.

Messengers of Deception: UFO Contacts and Cults [Paperback]
Jacques Vallee (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Messengers-Deception-UFO-Contacts-Cults/dp/097572004X/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2G9FMZ5NRK1P4&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Mar 30, 2012 - 01:30am PT
So can ET's go to heaven...?
Patrick Oliver

Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
Mar 30, 2012 - 03:47am PT
Of course I jest with you, Stannard, because I know you jest, but
it dumbfounds me that you ever made it through a first grade
science class, or should I say logic class... Then again, if I recall,
Einstein flunked out somewhere along the line too... so, pray tell...
By the way, wasn't that how they used to mix cement in the old days...
to eyeball it more or less? Or you'd receive the mix and be left to add
water until it was enough? Shows what I know...
jstan

climber
Mar 30, 2012 - 06:50am PT
Pat:
Or so would I have thought until I started pouring concrete in ten ton lots. Concrete technology has come a very long way.
Patrick Oliver

Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
Mar 31, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
Of course I was just funnin'...
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Apr 1, 2012 - 11:49am PT
The question ALL people need to ask is do I have to answer to God for anything and can I come before Him on my own merit, or do I need a savior?


Romans 3:23 for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.


1 Peter 2:22 “He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth.”

23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25 For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now (WILL) you <have> return-<ed> to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls(?).

Revelation 19:9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”



I hope to see you on that day!!!


Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 1, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!”
I hope to see you on that day!!!

The lamb is getting married? And you hope that I'm invited to its wedding so that you can see me there?

So far, I haven't received my invitation, but then, I'm not sure where they're going to hold the wedding. I don't think it's legal for sheep to get married in the US.
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Apr 1, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
Ghost, that was baaaad!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Apr 1, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
Mar 30, 2012 - 01:30am PT

So can ET's go to heaven...?



MD,

If ETs are indeed what the evidence is stacking up to suggest (read the books on those who ask these questions and have studied abductions over a very long period of time) they are: interdimensional Fallen Angels, Nephilim, Demons, then the answer is no.

The Bible, Jesus Christ, plainly states that Hell was created for Lucifer and his angels. If man chooses to follow Lucifer's ways, then they are headed there also. The Bible is very clear on this.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 3, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
Will to be Well

“Bless the Lord, O my soul… Who healeth ALL thy diseases” (Psalm 103:3). “When Jesus saw him… He saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?” (John 5:6).

The question is simple that’s posed to the soul
As God seeks to heal, to strengthen, and bless:
The Savior is asking us, “Will you be made whole?”
The answer is no, or the answer is yes.

Some may reply that it’s more complicated,
Suggesting that sometimes our soul is too ill.
That isn’t what Jesus our Savior has stated;
It’s rather a matter of personal will.

How strange are the attitudes blocking His healing!
Should not every soul long at last to be well?
The Gospel is plain that the Lord is revealing,
Yet many are choosing the doctrines of hell.

O Lord, we give thanks for the mercy that cures
The deepest diseases in souls that are found!
We know that Your healing forever endures,
Procured by Your mercy and truth that abound!
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 3, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
Well f*ck, i'm an interdimentional Nephilim.












I'm screwed.
BDoog

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2012 - 09:55am PT
Bump. Honnold's still an atheist.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 5, 2012 - 10:37am PT
*verse number and bible quote.*

See, God exists because of *insert reason here*.

So yeah.
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Apr 5, 2012 - 10:54am PT
Bump. Honnold's still an atheist.
And then?
Now there's the deal breaker, NOT!


Deuteronomy 6:13 You shall fear only the LORD your God; and you shall worship Him and swear by His name.

Deuteronomy 10:20 You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve Him and cling to Him, and you shall swear by His name. 21 He is your praise and He is your God!

Luke 4:8 Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’”
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Apr 6, 2012 - 05:10am PT
^^^^
Revelation 3:13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Apr 6, 2012 - 07:10am PT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2012 - 09:55am PT
Bump. Honnold's still an atheist.


Like I said before, there will be no atheists on the Judgement Day.

Every knee shall bow before GOD (YHWY) and Jesus Christ (YESHUA).

You will either be under his grace and forgiveness, or you won't.

Your choice.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Apr 6, 2012 - 08:35am PT
Why wouldn't God let us Atheists into heaven.
I thought he was all about love and compassion.

We didn't do anything wrong, we have done more for Religion than anyone, asking so many penetrating questions, seeking to understand the existence of God!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Apr 6, 2012 - 09:42am PT
At some point you have to stop your stubbornness and believe and accept GOD's love.

This has to take place before your life ends here on Earth. Everyday is an opportunity to come back to GOD. Everyday.

It won't take place on The Day of Judgement. Forgiveness of Sins and our atonement through Jesus Christ's blood shed for you and me takes place on this side of eternity.


It would kinda be like a student learning his grade on an exam and not doing well, and the teacher going over the answers on the test afterwards, and then having the same student come up and say, "Hey, I know all the answers now. Can I have an A?"

Sorry, you were supposed to pass the test before all the answers were given out. There will be no grade changes after the answers are given out, and long after the test is over.
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Apr 6, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
Exodus 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 6, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
Maybe you believers are the stubborn ones...

Judgement Day would be sick, I've been watching a lot of Zombie movies, i'm psyched.

Your response?

*quotes another bible verse*


/sigh.
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Apr 6, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

Jesus saves us from the devil's end!
WBraun

climber
Apr 6, 2012 - 05:43pm PT
13 “You shall not murder.


It's really "Thou shall not kill."

You guys don't even follow the commandments instead interpret them to make it fit for yourselves.

Anyways if you use "murder" why are you murdering all those animals and eating them?

You don't have dominion over them so don't give me that bull.

So called Christians kill and murder everything in sight .....
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Apr 6, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
That's another Drink
Cheers Werner

This one is Pure Classis Werner at His Most Enlightened!!
It's really "Thou shall not kill."

You guys don't even follow the commandments instead interpret them to make it fit for yourselves.

Anyways if you use "murder" why are you murdering all those animals and eating them?

You don't have dominion over them so don't give me that bull.

So called Christians kill and murder everything in sight .....
WB

There are so many religious threads going now
Which religious thread should we post on?
I hate having to Cross post
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Apr 6, 2012 - 06:21pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#243579
photo not found
Missing photo ID#243581
photo not found
Missing photo ID#243580

John 4:13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 6, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
How do I get some of that water?


Do you have some of that water?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 6, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
I hate having to Cross post

Yeah, but since it's Easter, Cross posting is okay on Friday. And then you can resurrect your post on Monday (I guess that would be "bump it" in modern internet terminology.)
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 6, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
Tor, the god of thunder. Thursday is his day.
etc. etc. etc. for all the other gods

Lolli is spot on. And just for her...

Thor
West Face of Mt. Thor
West Face of Mt. Thor
Credit: Ghost

Freya
Below Mt. Freya
Below Mt. Freya
Credit: Ghost

Bredablik
Baldur's castle, Mt. Bredablik
Baldur's castle, Mt. Bredablik
Credit: Ghost

Odin
Mt. Odin
Mt. Odin
Credit: Ghost

Asgard
Mt. Asgard, Home of the Gods
Mt. Asgard, Home of the Gods
Credit: Ghost
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Apr 7, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
2 Corinthians 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
luggi

Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
Apr 7, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
CHRIST IS RISEN INDEED! Happy Easter!!!
 Evidence for the Resurrection
"And declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of Holiness, by the Resurrection from the dead." Romans 1:4
In 1815, all of Europe agonized in suspense waiting for news of the impending battle between the Duke of Wellington and the French emperor Napoleon. For over 25 years Europe had been convulsed by the French Revolution, the mass executions of French nobles, the guillotine, and two decades of Napoleonic wars, which had turned all of Europe into a battlefield. Just when they had thought that the threat was over, with Napoleon defeated and in exile on Elba, Napoleon had returned, mustered a huge army and marched to destroy the British Army under the Duke of Wellington. People waited in great anticipation for news of the critical battle, which would decide the future of all of them.
A sailing ship semaphored (signalled with coded flags) the result of the decisive battle. A signalman on the top of Winchester cathedral decoded the message from a ship in the channel: "Wellington defeated..." then fog obscured the ship and the message was sent out throughout the British Isles: "Wellington defeated!" Shock and depression spread with the devastating news. Then several hours later, when the fog lifted, the signal was completed: "Wellington defeated the enemy"! As the full message of the decisive victory at Waterloo was proclaimed throughout the land there was tremendous rejoicing. Wellingtons' victory at Waterloo ushered in 99 years of peace in Western Europe.
The bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead is tremendously important. Death is man's greatest enemy, and it has conquered all men - but Christ. Cities and nations, like people, are born and grow for a season, and then fade away. Homes, clothes, even vehicles, wear out and eventually go back to dust, just as do their owners. The Bible describes this universal reign of decay and death as "the bondage of corruption" (Romans 8:21). In science it is recognised as the Second Law of Thermodynamics - the Law of Increasing Entropy. Left to themselves, every system tends to become disordered, to run down and eventually die. All the founders of great religions and movements have died and you can visit their graves. Zoroaster, Confucius, Buddha, Muhammad, Marx, and Lenin. They are all dead and decayed in the grave. But Jesus Christ is alive!
So, what difference does that make? You may ask. The Resurrection of Jesus Christ is vitally important because it demonstrates Christ's victory over death, it gives hope to all mankind, it shows that eternal life is available to believers, it points to the ultimate triumph of God over all evil, and it provides an indisputable proof that the message about Jesus Christ, as both Judge and Saviour, is true. "Because He has appointed a Day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man Whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead." Acts 17:31
The Research of Skeptics
The Resurrection is so important and foundational to Christianity that it has been targeted for the most relentless attacks. Frank Morison, a lawyer, determined to disprove the Resurrection and thereby undermine Christianity. The result of his exhaustive investigations was his conversion to Christ and the publication of his book: "Who Moved the Stone?" which decisively demonstrates the overwhelming evidence for the Resurrection.
A skeptical university lecturer, Josh McDowell, determined to disprove Christianity by investigating evidence against the Resurrection. The result was his conversion to Christ and publication of the monumental: "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" which exhaustively and conclusively presents documentation and evidence upon evidence substantiating the historical truth, factual accuracy, archaeological evidence, manuscript evidence, fulfilled prophecies, transformed lives, and other indisputable evidences which support the fact of the Resurrection of Christ from the dead and the truth claims of Christianity.
Thomas Arnold, Professor of History at Oxford University, one of the greatest historians of the 19th Century wrote: "I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better, fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair enquirer, than the great sign which God has given us that Christ died and rose from the dead."
Simon Greenleaf, recognised as one of the most skilled legal minds ever produced, developed the Harvard Law School. He is recognised as the top authority on what constitutes sound evidence. Simon Greenleaf made a thorough and exhaustive examination of the objective evidence and the testimony of the four Gospel writers, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. In his book: "The Testimony of the Evangelists" (Baker, 1874) he concluded: "It was therefore impossible that they could have persisted in affirming the truths they have narrated, had not Jesus actually risen from the dead, and had they not known this fact as certainly as they knew any other fact."
Simon Greenleaf declared that any court of law, if presented with the evidence of the Resurrection, would have to give a verdict in favour of the integrity and accuracy of the Gospel writers and the fact of the Resurrection.
One of the most popular books ever written, and most successful films ever produced, Ben Hur, was a result of a skeptical challenge to General Lew Wallace to the authenticity of Christ's Resurrection, and a careful examination of the evidence.
What are the facts? The religious leaders, the Pharisees and Sadducees, who had campaigned and conspired to have Christ arrested and executed on trumped up charges, had a compelling interest in disproving any claims of the Resurrection. They had presumed that the execution of Jesus would eliminate this threat to their religious power base and silence His supporters. These Jewish religious leaders had great concerns about the corpse of Jesus and they approached the Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, for a military detachment to secure the tomb (Matthew 28:62-64).
The Roman governor's priority in the volatile province of Palestine was to preserve peace and stability. He recognised the political problems that would ensue if anything happened to this religious Teacher whom he had three times declared innocent, and ultimately washed his hands in front of the crowd declaring, "I'm innocent of this Man's blood" (Matthew 27:24). His wife had warned him: "Don't have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of Him." (Matthew 27:19)
Pilate was only too aware that a travesty of justice had taken place, and the last thing he needed was a review of his shameful conduct and dereliction of duty in this case. Ensuring that the victim's corpse remained buried was definitely in Pilate's political interests as well. "'Take a guard', Pilate answered. 'Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how'. So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard." Matthew 27:65
The Roman Guard
As the chief priests had approached the Roman governor, and as the Greek word Koustodia is used to describe the detachment of soldiers, it was evidently a Roman guard. If only a temple guard had been used, there would have been no need to approach Pilate to issue the order. Additionally the concern of the guards after the Resurrection to be protected from consequences from the governor (Matthew 28:14) confirms that those guarding the tomb were Roman soldiers. The detachment would have consisted of at least sixteen soldiers with four men placed directly in front of the entrance of the tomb, on duty, at any time. Under Roman military law any guard who deserted his post, or who fell asleep on duty, would face crucifixion. Typically, if Roman soldiers allowed a prisoner to escape they would face the same sentence as the prisoner - in this case crucifixion.
The seal placed on the stone at the entrance to the tomb signified the administrative authority, and only an authorised officer of Rome would be permitted to break the seal. Anyone breaking a Roman seal without permission would be tracked down and executed.
Although the intention of the religious and political leaders had been to ensure that the phenomenon of Jesus ended at the tomb, their extraordinary security measures have only served to confirm the truth that they had murdered an innocent Man and that Jesus Christ was truly the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, "the firstborn from the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth... the One Who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forever more." Revelation 1:5,18
Christ's Victory Over Death
"Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men. But the angel answered and said to the women, 'Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus, Who was crucified. He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold I have told you'. So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word. And as they went to tell His disciples, behold Jesus met them, saying 'Rejoice!', so they came and held Him by the feet and worshipped Him. Then Jesus said to them, 'Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me.'" Matthew 28:1-10
Attempts to Avoid the Truth of the Resurrection
To explain away the empty tomb, the enemies of the Gospel have had to resort to some desperate deceptions. The first was to suggest that the disciples had stolen the body. This incredible theory suggests that those same disciples who had slept in the garden, fled at His arrest, denied Him before a young woman, were hiding in fear behind locked doors, could have unitedly overcome sixteen professional Roman soldiers, dared to break a Roman seal, moved a two tonne tomb stone, just to steal a corpse! A dead Messiah would have served absolutely no purpose for the disciples. What possible motivation could they have had, even had they possessed the ability to overcome the military, political and logistical obstacles? They had nothing to gain and everything to lose. Everyone of the disciples suffered severe persecution, most dying as martyrs for the Faith. Would you die for a lie?
Did Jesus Really Die?
Others have questioned whether Christ had really died on the cross. Perhaps He only fainted? This swoon theory would have us believe that the Roman soldiers, who were professional killers, (the centurion in charge, would most probably have supervised dozens if not hundreds of executions), had failed to ensure that this high profile political prisoner was not actually dead. Considering the vicious flogging which the Lord had already endured, the excruciating torture of crucifixion, and the spear thrust into His side, with blood and water flowing out, all provide convincing evidence of death.
Yet, those advocating the swoon theory would have us believe that One Who had endured such savage flogging, crucifixion, and a spear thrust to the heart, could not only have survived the legendary Roman military efficiency, but that He was revived on a cold slab in a cold tomb. Further that He somehow disengaged from the grave clothes, and one hundred pounds of spices, ointments and wrappings which had effectively mummified Him, rolled away the two tonne stone, overpowered, or eluded, the Roman soldiers, and somehow found and impressed the disciples with His Deity? These suggestions have only to be mentioned in order to be dismissed as unbelievable.
The Empty Tomb
Another desperate attempt to explain away the Resurrection of Christ has been that they went to the wrong tomb. All of them. Mary Magdalene, Peter, John, the other women, all went to the wrong tomb. Somehow neither the Pharisees, nor the Sadducees, nor the Roman soldiers, nor Joseph of Arimathea, whose tomb it was, thought to point out that the tomb was in fact still occupied! However, this theory is also impossible, as the tomb was not in a cemetery, but in a garden privately owned by Joseph of Arimathea. There was no other tomb in that garden.
The Absence of the Body
All that the Roman and Jewish leaders had to do in order to end Christianity forever was produce the corpse of Jesus. But they couldn't do it. Even when the Apostle Peter stood up on the day of Pentecost and proclaimed: "Therefore, let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." Acts 2:36. "And with great power the apostles gave witness to the Resurrection of the Lord Jesus." Acts 4:33. And many thousands in Jerusalem, including many Pharisees, came to faith in Jesus Christ.
The Crisis of Credibility
To the Jewish religious leaders, this was their worst nightmare, a disaster. The proclamation of the Resurrection of Christ undermined their power and credibility. Thousands of their followers now believed that they had condemned an innocent Man, the Messiah Himself. The new religion of Christianity was undermining the power base and credibility of the Pharisees and Sadducees. If the body of Jesus could have been found, Christianity could be stopped dead in its tracks and the threat to the religious status quo would have ended. Since they desperately needed Jesus' corpse, the Jewish leaders would have used every means at their disposal to hunt it down and find it - if that was possible.
The Testimony of Eye Witnesses
However, we are not only dealing with the empty tomb, and the absence of the body, but the testimony of eyewitnesses. On at least twelve separate occasions Jesus Christ was seen after rising from the tomb. Mary Magdalene (John 20:11-18; Mark 16:9); the other women (Matthew 28:8-10); Peter (Luke 24:34); the two disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:13-35); ten of the disciples (Luke 24:36-43; John 20:19-24); all eleven disciples, eight days later (John 20:24-29); seven disciples by the Sea of Tiberius (John 21:1-23); to five hundred at one time (1 Corinthians 15:6); to James (1 Corinthians 15:7); to all eleven apostles, and others, at the Ascension (Acts 1:3-12); Paul (Acts 9:3-8); and John (Revelation 1:12-18), all saw the Lord bodily raised from the dead.
To explain away the testimony of all these eyewitnesses, enemies of Christianity suggest that these were merely hallucinations, perhaps as a result of hypnosis or hysteria. However, while hallucinations tend to be unique psychological experiences of an individual, we are here dealing with a large number of individuals, who at different times, in different groups, in different places, both indoors and outdoors, on a hilltop, along a roadside, by a lake shore, all saw the Lord. They saw Him, they ate with Him, they saw the wounds in His hands and in His side.
And far from being gullible, it would appear that His disciples were very skeptical and slow to believe. Thomas declared that he would not believe that Christ had risen unless he personally placed his fingers in the nail prints in His hands and feet and his hand in the wound in His side.
The Transformation of the Disciples
Not only do we have the testimony of the eyewitnesses, but the dramatic transformation of the disciples. The Resurrection of Christ from the dead transformed the disciples' grief to joy, their cowardice to boldness, their skepticism to faith and their doubt to determination. It turned Saul, the persecutor of the church into Paul the apostle of the church.
It also transformed society and history. It changed the Jewish Sabbath into the Christian Lord's Day. What else could explain the replacement of Saturday as the Jewish day of rest into Sunday as the Christian Lord's Day? The Resurrection transformed a Jewish remnant into the worldwide Christian Church. Over 2-Billion people worldwide describe themselves as Christians who believe in the Resurrection of Christ from the dead. The very existence of the largest religious movement in the history of the world is another powerful evidence of the truth of the Resurrection.
Jesus Himself had prophesied His Resurrection from the dead. And because of His fulfilment of this, we can be absolutely certain that Jesus Christ is God with us, as He claimed. By His Resurrection we can know that our sins are forgiven through His blood sacrificed on the cross of Calvary: "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that Whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:14-16
Because of Christ's death on the cross we can rejoice that our sins are paid for - we are forgiven, justified by faith.
Because of Christ's Resurrection from the dead we can rejoice in the prospect of eternal life.
Because of Christ's Ascension we can know that He has all authority and that His Great Commission will be accomplished on earth.
Because of the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost we do not need to trust in our own abilities, but in His power alone. "Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit says the Lord."
William Sangster - the church leader and hymn writer - suffered from increasing paralysis which finally prevented him from even being able to talk. On his last Easter before he died, he wrote: "How terrible to wake up on Easter and have no voice to shout, 'HE IS RISEN', far worse, to have a voice and not to want to shout!"
We serve a risen Saviour! Death is defeated. Christ has risen - victorious over death, hell, satan and the grave.
Jesus Christ is the Resurrection and the Life. He who believes in Christ, though he may die, yet shall he live (John 11:25).
coz

Mountain climber
Northern surly
Apr 7, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
Go B and crew.

Sun God Ra.

Google it.

You guys need to not take things so literally.

Faith is a metaphor....
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 7, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
This thread is like a celestial "What is Mind?"
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 7, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
Proof of the resurrection..... in the bible.


Jesus Christ.


Oh gawrsh am i to be smited?!?!
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 7, 2012 - 09:14pm PT
Thanks again Mike, your comments only strengthen God's Word and bless those that continue to glorify Him. Praying for you.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 7, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
Thanks man
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Apr 7, 2012 - 10:04pm PT


Matthew 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Apr 8, 2012 - 04:50am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#243721


"May God pity a nation whose factory chimneys rise higher than her church steeples"
John Kelman

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

May God pity us who have no need for our maker or place for our God.
Praise God from whom all blessings flow and to Christ Jesus the risen King of Kings and Lord of Lords!
And may the Holy Spirit take away our heart of stone and give us a heart for God!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 8, 2012 - 05:11am PT
They're simply peddling religion. Not a personal conviction of any kind, just a standard set up same-for-all religion.
It's good business and tax free for each hooked they can catch. They're tradesmen, merchants for churches.
jstan

climber
Apr 8, 2012 - 06:28am PT
It feels like they're trolls, a few people working in callcenter environments set up to react to certain keywords.

The fascination we all have with things and expressions that evidence originality, like this one from Lolli. may be a product of human adaptability. The trait that allowed the few hundred homo sapiens who survived the climate changes of some 100,000 years ago, to go on and do all that has been done.

If that same trait exists among the religiously inclined, one has to conclude that had Jesus or Mohammed never lived at all, the believers would be out there right now, trying to create them. Perhaps both of these prophets are just such creations anyway. Religion is an expression of the believer and a creation by the believer.

God absolutely must be all powerful if a believer suffers from a sense of helplessness. They create someone who does not suffer from their own affliction. (Those who do not feel god must be all-powerful, are religious for other reasons.) The personal testimonies and histories we have seen here on ST speak very directly to this need for power. (Sometimes just the power to control one's self.) This is why religion is perhaps the most aggressive and pitiless field of human endeavor. It has to be so if it is to project the desired sense of absolute power.

Go-bee's public account of how he heard god speaking to him when he was in mortal terror speaks further, to the basic response coming from within himself. When he felt threatened he did an obvious thing. He ran away. Who wouldn't have? Well, another might just as easily have done another equally obvious thing. He might have gathered together the others who were there, and have confronted the adult. Saying, "you cannot hurt us all. Most of us will get away and we will bring back good people who will treat you as you need to be treated. So either get out of our way or let's get this on."

When it comes to specific human responses there is no obvious correction that can be taken. There are corrections but they all are unobvious, are very difficult, and uncertain of success.

It seems to me, this is why the problem is of long standing.
darkmagus

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 8, 2012 - 08:24am PT
Great post, Lolli! It's a great question for the believers, but they don't seem to take it as seriously as they should. I'm not a believer myself, hell, I'm the Dark Wizard, though I went to church a lot as a kid. The only churches I've been to in California are Cathedral Peak and once in Fresno for a wedding...
WBraun

climber
Apr 8, 2012 - 08:39am PT
Not a personal conviction of any kind, just a standard set up same-for-all religion.

Just plain licking the outside of the jar will always result in stupid mental speculative conclusions like this ......
luggi

Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
Apr 8, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
Billy Graham once stated that if there ever was a country that would go to hell because of their religion it would be the United States of America. Why would a man who loves God before everything else make a statement like that?

Lolli there is a distinction between religion and christianity.

I am most likely more like you and others then you think. I am just providing another perspective and information.
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Apr 9, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
Patrick Greene, Longtime Atheist Activist, Announces Conversion To Christianity
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/04/patrick-greene-atheist-christianity-conversion_n_1404196.html
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Apr 17, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
Not sure if this was posted, but here is the latest. solo.

http://www.rockandice.com/news/1910-another-day-another-alex-honnold-free-solo
labrat

Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
Apr 17, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
Onsite solo! Chills me to the bone just thinking about it....
iep

climber
Apr 17, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
i heard that the dude also did Zion's Shane's Buttress on-sight cordless, a couple of weeks ago.

he wrote "Wet, and it started snowing on top."
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 26, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
I heard he's still an Atheist.
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
Apr 28, 2012 - 06:58am PT
Nice try!

Deuteronomy 10:14 To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Apr 28, 2012 - 10:59am PT
Apr 8, 2012 - 01:47am PT
Klimmer is real, he's just in a crisis, but I somehow doubt go-b, truthdweller, luggi et al are.
It feels like they're trolls, a few people working in callcenter environments set up to react to certain keywords. What do we know of them as persons? Nothing. They disclose nothing personal, it's pure marketing. They're simply peddling religion. Not a personal conviction of any kind, just a standard set up same-for-all religion.
It's good business and tax free for each hooked they can catch. They're tradesmen, merchants for churches.

...I wonder if they believe themselves? It's like they had to put in a clause in contracts that they had to use that shampoo themselves too...


Lolli,

They're all real despite my crisis (Lol). I will survive GOD willing. Thanks for your care and concern (sarcasm).


Personally, I like the approach that go-B and Truthdweller et al. take. Just quote the pure word of GOD. It pierces and enters into the heart like nothing else can. GOD's words are powerful. They work like nothing else can. They are living words. They will change you one way or another. You'll either respond positively to his words and love them, or you will respond negatively to his words and hate them, because they convict.

Either way, you will be changed. You won't be the same.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 30, 2012 - 11:16am PT
Nice try!

Deuteronomy 10:14 To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.

Thanks, I really needed that.

Thanks to that Dooter Romney guy for the proof the G O D exists.


Just quote the pure word of GOD.
How is it a pure word if it came in the form of another persons publishing?

I think the Bible needs a dictionary section.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
May 1, 2012 - 06:33pm PT
I miss Truthdweller and go-B's word of their god.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
May 1, 2012 - 06:56pm PT

To lift your eyes to heaven

When all mens' eyes are on the ground,

Is not easy.

To worship at the feet of the angels

When all men worship only fame and riches,

Is not easy.

But the most difficult of all

Is to think the thoughts of the angels,

To speak the words of the angels,

And to do as angels do.
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
May 6, 2012 - 06:08am PT
Psalm 92:4 For You, O Lord, have made me glad by what You have done,
I will sing for joy at the works of Your hands.
go-B

climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
May 7, 2012 - 05:00am PT
Psalm 90

A prayer of Moses the man of God.


1 Lord, you have been our dwelling place
throughout all generations.
2 Before the mountains were born
or you brought forth the whole world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God.


3 You turn people back to dust,
saying, “Return to dust, you mortals.”
4 A thousand years in your sight
are like a day that has just gone by,
or like a watch in the night.
5 Yet you sweep people away in the sleep of death—
they are like the new grass of the morning:
6 In the morning it springs up new,
but by evening it is dry and withered.


7 We are consumed by your anger
and terrified by your indignation.
8 You have set our iniquities before you,
our secret sins in the light of your presence.
9 All our days pass away under your wrath;
we finish our years with a moan.
10 Our days may come to seventy years,
or eighty, if our strength endures;
yet the best of them are but trouble and sorrow,
for they quickly pass, and we fly away.
11 If only we knew the power of your anger!
Your wrath is as great as the fear that is your due.
12 Teach us to number our days,
that we may gain a heart of wisdom.


13 Relent, Lord! How long will it be?
Have compassion on your servants.
14 Satisfy us in the morning with your unfailing love,
that we may sing for joy and be glad all our days.
15 Make us glad for as many days as you have afflicted us,
for as many years as we have seen trouble.
16 May your deeds be shown to your servants,
your splendor to their children.


17 May the favor of the Lord our God rest on us;
establish the work of our hands for us—
yes, establish the work of our hands.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
May 7, 2012 - 07:24am PT
Is it just me or does it seem peculiar that people think various religious texts are the "Word Of God".

The Bible, in particular, seems to be the most honest to me and has an extensive Bibliography built right into it.

So if I read certain passages, I know it's not the word of "God" but of Matthew or Luke.

And the first page claims it's the "King James" version.

Seriously, we know at least the Bible has been written and edited hundreds of times over thousands of years by hundreds of both normal people and major political figures.

I'd expect more from "The Word Of God"
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
May 7, 2012 - 08:03am PT
as john denver once put it, life ain't nothing but a funny, funny riddle. i think it may have a correct answer, and i think believers and atheists are both wrong.

not that the working hypothesis i've come up with will solve many problems, great or small, or prove much more satisfying, at first, than either of the above forms of belief. but if this hypothesis is homing in on the truth, it will offer something you won't get from the others: a future.

this announcement is brought to you by the klimmer ark-on-the-moon thread, via a little book i read about a year ago which brought home, somehow, the fact that ufos are for real. it was one of those key logs that can loosen up a logjam.

my working hypothesis--the IDH (interdimensional hypothesis), rather than the ETH (extraterrestrial hypothesis to explain ufos and related phenomena)--posits the existence of "superior" intelligences in the realm which advanced physics is only beginning to plumb in sophisticated laboratories like CERN and fermilab--a strange, mostly theoretical "multiverse" (rather than "universe") of several dimensions (5? 10? 11? 26? 48? the number seems to change with every genius who comes along), wherein "superior" (at least technologically superior) beings are able to pop in and out of the human milieu, and who have quite possibly been manipulating us through religion and historical events for a very long time.

that's the nutshell of how i've come to view these things, and it engages, rather than ignores or fantasticates, the anomalous and paranormal phenomena which so many, bound to tight and narrow beliefs, seem compelled to stamp out--a major theme in our OT threads on this forum. it also offers insight into the many mythologies of the past and the archaeological "wonders" which so many "scientists" prefer to ignore. consider that all the myths and fantastic epics of the past, right down to the mainstream christian one we're saddled with in the europeanized world, are quite possible, mostly true, reports of the interdimensional realm interacting with our earthly one.

what this does not give us is the easy, absolute, deus-ex-machina which our klimmers, go-Bs and truthdwellers crave. it also does not give us the lonely, ironic existence of your garden variety atheist. it does define a spiritual realm, however, and offer a handle on a reality (for want of a better word) which may have a future.

several writers and researchers, perhaps most notably jacques vallee, have paved the way for this hypothesis. if you don't think you have all the answers, take a look at it.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
May 7, 2012 - 08:05am PT
Is it just me or does it seem peculiar that people think various religious texts are the "Word Of God".

It is not just you. I understand the quest for spiritual enlightenment that some here discuss but the absolute belief in third-person information that was written down then translated many times back when there was no accountability for political and spiritual (one in the same) leaders just seems absurd. Trusting God is one thing but trusting naturally greedy humans with your everlasting soul seems stupid.

The ones who will not question the authenticity of the Bible do not deserve anything that comes from it. They really are sheep to their shepherd god with no more mind or soul than a sheep.

With God, there is no freedom. The walls of the prison are not visible but the punishment for escape is severe.

Dave
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
May 7, 2012 - 08:11am PT
[quote]if you don't think you have all the answers, take a look at it./quote]

Books, movies, and speculations from any person of any faith or of no faith will never provide an answer. People can only weakly speculate and make up crap to spew onto other people but it's all mental gymnastics where you end up at the other end of the balance beam with nothing more than you started with.

A rational person might say that they have an entertaining theory but they would also say that the universe is vast and anything we can know is so small that it is indistinguishable from zero.

We know zip, ziltch, nada, nothing. But it is somehow in our nature to fill the void with whatever our heads can dream up.

Dave
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
May 7, 2012 - 10:02am PT
I think it'd be lols if Klimmer was a different kind of bible thumper than Go-B, who was a different kind of bible thumper than TruthDweller, who was a different kind of bible thumper than Klimmer, who was a diff....
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
May 15, 2012 - 04:22pm PT
http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t2#/video/us/2012/05/15/dnt-woman-sees-jesus-in-bachelor-show.wpbf

jesus is real.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
May 15, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
I saw Jesus at McDonalds at midnight...

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