tarek
climber
berkeley
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Apr 25, 2012 - 08:59am PT
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Russ is right. These bartacks are not daisy chain bartacks, nor is the webbing daisy chain webbing. It's way stronger than tubular webbing, for example. I'm not dumping my harness, either.
As we all know, however, even one fatality due to a design flaw with this much jabbering behind it would be extremely costly for BD, so it's not really about the numbers. It's about the amount of effort/cost required to modify the design, if needed. I may be naive, but I'd bet that BD has tested the possible misuse of their harnesses and are satisfied with the results. If you tie in through a gear loop (has happened), after all, yer gonna die, so we know there are also acceptable scenarios of potential misuse.
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gf
climber
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Apr 25, 2012 - 09:10am PT
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Piton Ron
I think your movement to boycott BD should be part of a broader organization: may I suggest in no particular order:
The Workers' Revolutionary Party (Trotskyist), or perhaps the the Revolutionary Communist Party (leninist)
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 25, 2012 - 10:05am PT
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I'm still not seeing it....
Could somebody draw a really simple picture of what the situation is that could cause that harness to fail?
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stich
Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
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Apr 25, 2012 - 10:43am PT
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I just bought a new BD harness that obviously has this construction and I'm not concerned. The quick release buckles were of some concern a while back, but that too is not on my mind anymore.
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Apr 25, 2012 - 11:10am PT
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Still wouldn't it be smart of them to redesign an intellectually more secure tie in point ?
"Perception is everything" - Don Juan, Journey to Itxlan
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miwuksurfer
Social climber
Mi-Wuk
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Apr 25, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
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If you tie in through a gear loop (has happened), after all, yer gonna die, so we know there are also acceptable scenarios of potential misuse.
Metolius' gear loops are rated to 10 kn. I believe BD was having issues with their gear loops breaking under normal circumstances even. So maybe say "if you tie into the gear loop of a BD harness yer gonna die."
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Apr 25, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
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If I had no background here, I would hold my tongue.
But the fact is: I know about defects.
They usually only show up in the field and mostly it's minor BS.
Dingus hit the eyeball. Nice head shot. And with the silencer.
"Run Away! Run Away!" (KNIGHTS ALL YELL TOGETHER) "Run Away!"
I wish there were a way to take a photo, in a similar manner, of WB"s brain so we could see the defect(s), if any. Could have used a similar device at TNF in the seconds shop.
Shoot, Werner...you're the most useful guy on this forum for practical sense and knowledge.
Doesn't make him God. Or His son; but, still, Werener Saves!
He never really raves, he just gets fed up with the stoops.
Turds can never hurt him.
Nicely put, cogent, wise remarks, "Veah-nach."
By the way, it's the usual thing to pronounce an other's name in the manner that the person himself does. Never heard him say "Veah-nach."
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Apr 25, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
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Ron and COZ : cover your eyes... Move along.
I'm glad we have BD. I was glad Yvonne sold if to the employees bitd.
I think they have made my time in the mountains better. I do think they care if I die because of a fault in their gear.
Anyway, just saying....... Thanks.
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coz
Mountain climber
Northern surly
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Apr 25, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
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Here's the deal, remember Russ and others the problem was pointed out to me by Peter Metcalf himself. I'm not making anything up, I only wanted to go public because BD refuses to. And the fact that I know of the problem and hadn't said anything made me feel bad. Now you know and if you continue to use their harnesses it's your choice. I personally will not, or allow any of my clients or friends do so.
If you are tied into your rope and you're clipped into an anchor, and you attach your belay device separate from your knot, the force applied to your harness will be the same as the force applied to a daisy chain pocket. It doesn't have anything to do with webbing, I 'm talking about the force applied.
In other words, take your harness, tie in your rope, clip the belay device into the belay loop and pull in different directions.
Seems pretty simple...
We don't know if there has ever been an accident, I just know for a fact, they refused to address the issue because of the cost. I was amazed they were aware of a problem and refused to fix it.
I don't have a beef with BD, sorry, I still use plenty of their gear, I do however have a beef with some of their products. The fact that they put cost benefits above people safety is a fact, Metcalf claiming otherwise is an out right fabrication.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 25, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
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Wasn't there a death on Touchstone due to another manufacturer's device being used in an unanticipated manner that it was not designed for?
Didn't they subsequently come out with a specific counter-indication?
If Coz's scenario is unanticipated and not part of the design and rarely employed is that reason enough to just wait for another death before doing something about it?
This is just an example of the less than stellar morality embodied by the BD corporate culture.
And gf, I make most of my money as a capitalist pig with a conscience. Not a commie by a long shot.
Hell I've even thought about buying a share of BD just to attend the stockholder's meetings!
And who's gf are you anyway?
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Just got back from a trip and looked at my BD harness.
Note the difference between it and the harness in the photo DMT posted (copied here).
This seems to mitigate the potential "daisy chain" stress problem as the pocket won't be pulled apart so directly in my harness.
I highly doubt, btw, that the type of webbing involved does not matter in the case of either harness. Different webbing will likely hold stitches differently, and thread is also important. But what do I know?
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disgrunter
Social climber
Uk
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Nov 11, 2012 - 11:42am PT
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what im reading is shocking,
Although we maintain product liability insurance in amounts that we believe are reasonable, there can be no assurance that we will be able to maintain such insurance on acceptable terms, if at all, in the future or that product liability claims will not exceed the amount of insurance coverage. Additionally, we do not maintain product recall insurance. As a result, product recalls or product liability claims could have a material adverse effect on our business, results of operations and financial condition.
my very kind girlfriend just bought me a brand new pair of BD serac's. She was told at the shop (UK) that because these are ppe they cannot be returned even if not used. I was well chuffed (happy), a shiny new pair of crampons. I then decided to check reviews on the net and found that they are some what dubious. I cant return them to the shop,,,,, absolutely raging. Try selling these on ebay,,, doubt ill get anywhere near the retail price she paid due to their reviews, how can i climb with any confidence,, yes i am a beginner but confidence matters a lot,
here it comes,, fukin yanks,,,sort it out,,,, :)
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gf
climber
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Nov 12, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
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Not wading into the issue -but, wait for it
Fecking wingeing brits
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disgrunter
Social climber
Uk
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Nov 13, 2012 - 02:41am PT
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hhahaha, guess ill find someone to buy them or ill die trying
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