Discussion Topic |
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 29, 2012 - 11:04am PT
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MAY YOU BURN IN HELL!
Forest Service to drop fees at most national forests
Death of the 'Adventure' Pass
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Feb 29, 2012 - 11:07am PT
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oh yea.
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Lokesh
Mountain climber
Big Bear California
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Feb 29, 2012 - 11:27am PT
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Its the reason I quit the Forest Service as an FPO in the 90's
I refused to write tickets for the Adventure Pass
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Feb 29, 2012 - 11:39am PT
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I must confess to having mixed feelings on the demise of the Adventure Pass. I guess I'm a Dudley Do-Right for always having had one, but it was also a huge Pain-in-the-A** to have the pass in the right car on the right day, in a place where I could actually find it. What I liked about it was that the fees collected were (supposedly) applied directly to the upkeep and repair of local N.F. infrastructure.
I'm guessing that most Tea Partiers and their ilk find little value in financially supporting something like a National Forest, so as their influence grows, congressional funding for maintenance of infrastructure in the National Forests will likely diminish. It seems fair that those who visit and enjoy the forest, even if it's just to park and hike cross-country to a crag, should shoulder some financial responsibility for its upkeep.
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Dick Erb
climber
June Lake, CA
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Feb 29, 2012 - 11:40am PT
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Hooray!!!!!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Feb 29, 2012 - 11:44am PT
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you need to wake up, dosXX, and stop letting yourself get shoved around.
OPINION
GETTLEMAN, District Judge:
The Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act (“REA”)
prohibits the United States Forest Service from charging fees
“[s]olely for parking, undesignated parking, or picnicking
along roads or trailsides,” for “hiking through . . . without
using the facilities and services,” and “[f]or camping at unde-
veloped sites . . . .” 16 U.S.C. § 6802(d)(1)(A), (D) & (E).
Despite these clear prohibitions, the Forest Service collects
fees from all drivers who park their vehicles in a mile-wide
piece of the Coronado National Forest running along the 28–
mile Catalina Highway, the only paved road to the summit of
Mount Lemmon, a heavily used recreational area an hour’s
drive from downtown Tucson, Arizona.
The Forest Service was exceeding the scope of its authority
under the REA by charging fees to those who drive to Mount
Lemmon, park their cars, then picnic, hike, or camp in nearby
undeveloped areas. Plaintiffs also sought to enjoin the Forest
Service from collecting such fees. The district court granted
defendants’ Rule 12(b)(6) motion to dismiss. Plaintiffs
appealed. Because plaintiffs are correct that the Forest Ser-
vice’s fee structure contravenes the plain language of the
REA, we reverse the district court’s dismissal of Count I2 and
remand to allow plaintiffs to pursue that claim.
you can thank these folks for fighting the good fight:
http://www.westernslopenofee.org/
and i'll bet the sunsabitches will be back.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 29, 2012 - 11:47am PT
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Dos XX, I doubt that many or even most who celebrate today's news are Tea
Partiers. I assume they are, like me, believers that paying to use our
national heritage is like paying to sleep with my wife. Wait a minute,
those other believers, uh, never mind...
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Feb 29, 2012 - 11:50am PT
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Tony -- I get where you're coming from, but the USFS is not the Evil Empire. I've found the vast majority of USFS personnel, from upper level managers to rangers, to be dedicated to preserving some of the best places on the planet, and willing to do so while getting paid sh*t.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 29, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
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assume they are, like me, believers that paying to use our
national heritage is like paying to sleep with my wife.
The Forest Service charged people a fee to sleep with your wife?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Feb 29, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
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I suppose the $80 Annual Everything Park Pass will now be discounted by $35, to reflect the fact that it no longer serves as an annual Adventure Pass anymore.
It's only fair.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 29, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
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Ghost,
Bet they had to pay up front, and no rough stuff.
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Dick Erb
climber
June Lake, CA
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Feb 29, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
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Good one Ghost. I wonder how much.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 29, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
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Ghost, I was just trying to redo that while you posted but gave up in the hope that
you would do the clarification for me, as you did so well.
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D'Wolf
climber
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Feb 29, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
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Nothing personal, Dos XX, but USFS personnel know going in what they will be paid and yes, they're pretty decent people overall. If the career path doesn't fit their financial goals in life they can make other choices, just as the rest of us.
The USFS is supposedly funded by civialian tax dollars; not my fault that the dollars they should receive are allocated elsewhere (stolen) by the Dept. of Interior for other purposes - that sucks for sure. However, that does not give them the right to willingly and knowingly violate the law. I pay my taxes, I should be allowed to recreate on MY land without further "fees". I don't want nor need excessive "land management" by the USFS or BLM.
And, actually, I think you're incorrect about your "tea party" comment; most conservative "tea party" types do not want excessive government involvement of this nature, but definitely do support the idea of Natl. Parks, etc.
Cheers,
Thom
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Feb 29, 2012 - 12:13pm PT
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Not to mention most of the fees ended up going to wipe out more of our lands to put in RV parking/camping areas and going (surprise) to install infrastructure for the sole purpose of collecting the fees themselves.
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nature
climber
CO
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Feb 29, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
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About time. nothing like a program that operates in the red in most places.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 29, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
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Sorry about that Reilly, but I couldn't help myself.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 29, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
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Ghost, I don't mind playing the straight man for you. :-)
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D'Wolf
climber
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Feb 29, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
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Sadly, they may do an end-around: invest their own money (actually OUR tax dollars) on "improvements" that fall under the category of "ammenities", then begin charging the fees again to recoup the money spent plus future profits.
Next fight will be to stop the process of "improving" these recreational areas.
Thom
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Feb 29, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
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Around here ( SBNF ), all the *improvement* money was squandered paying rangers to check for pass compliance.
They put up a whole bunch of signs warning against parking anywhere without your *pass*, but that's it for improvements.
It was just a scheme to take money out of your pocket, and give it to un-productive Federal "workers".
Improvements? Not one damn thing to show for all that money around here.
I still have to piss in the dirt where I park, bring my own water, and pack out my trash. Just like it always was.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Feb 29, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
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What SteelMnk said. A ridiculous amount went to enforcement, and from the get-go it was a money grab. They would find somewhere people used largely BECAUSE it was free, install a kisok sign and occasionally a trash can, call it "improvements" and start charging.
About damn time. Many thanks to the West Slope folks for fighting the good fight for many years.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 29, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
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I wonder if we're gonna get charged now for them to take the signs down?
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Urizen
Ice climber
Berkeley, CA
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Feb 29, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
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So far it appears that the federal court ruling only affects the USFS. That still leaves much to be done: fighting day-use fees charged by the BLM, and outrageous backcountry permit fees charged by the NPS in places where, by definition, users are not making use of amenities, facilities, or improvements--except for those spiffy office buildings where you have to pay the fees.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Feb 29, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
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dosXX, i don't want to get on your case, but you are a naďf. the forest service took orders to enforce a bad law, and you can bet that the top supervisors were essential to the push, while people of conscience, like lokesh here, were resigning.
want to take a good look at the consequences of this? drive up to newcomb's and savor what the station fire left behind. that fire was even investigated by congress. chief ranger holding the line on expenses while people in the field were crying to send planes in before it got out of control. meanwhile, before and after this great holocaust to our forest, they had armies of forest service and related personnel--everyone from student interns to captains from the local fire departments--doing the only thing the forest service has known how to do for the past 10 years: put adventure pass tickets on windshields all weekend long.
do they need the money? if you think they need the money, go on up to the million-dollar interpretive center they built at blue ridge, several years after the AP program began. they had a perfectly good, perfectly serviceable, wonderfully interesting and well-docented interpretive center going at chilao. there was no need for this stupid development, except to PR the AP.
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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Feb 29, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
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Now if they would only open Williamson!
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Gary
climber
That Long Black Cloud Is Coming Down
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Feb 29, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
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It was just a scheme to take money out of your pocket, and give it to un-productive Federal "workers".
No, it was used to subsidize the big timber companies. Rather than charge them the market rate for taking our timber, they tried to take the money from us.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Feb 29, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
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I feel better now. The timber people actually produce something usefull.
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Feb 29, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
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Oh, my. Feeling pretty lonely here ;-)
If I thought that the US Congress was as concerned about the welfare of the National Forests as I am, I'd be less concerned about the loss of funds from a locally collected and locally applied fee for actual visitors to the forests. But here are the stats.
Annual USFS congressional appropriations, following the 2010 mid-term elections (when 44 Tea Party-endorsed candidates were newly elected to the U.S. House and Senate):
2010: $6.1 billion
2011: $5.9 billion
2012: $5.6 billion
2013: $5.5 billion
That's a cumulative loss of $600 million in funding in just a few short years.
As a frequent forest visitor, I feel responsible for, rather than entitled to the benefits of recreation in the National Forests when Congress is shedding its responsibility.
EDIT:
Source of appropriation information
http://www.fs.fed.us/aboutus/budget/
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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Feb 29, 2012 - 01:37pm PT
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The adventure pass is not dead yet; According to the NFS site, it is still required in Los Padres National Forrest. However, I doubt the enforcement will be strict as the locals (Santa Barbara) have rarely purchased the thing in the past, mostly with impunity.
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Gary
climber
That Long Black Cloud Is Coming Down
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Feb 29, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
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I feel better now. The timber people actually produce something usefull.
Yeah, and while you cover their costs, they make the profit. Pretty good deal, isn't it? Gotta love capitalism at work.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 29, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
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Gary, it is called 'state capitalism' as practiced in China and Venezuela, to name a couple.
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Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
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Feb 29, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
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In the article it says the government went to far for charging for access. So when do I get my refund for the passes I bought?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Feb 29, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
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Dos xx said: "...I get where you're coming from, but the USFS is not the Evil Empire. I've found the vast majority of USFS personnel, from upper level managers to rangers, to be dedicated to preserving some of the best places on the planet, and willing to do so while getting paid sh*t. "
and
"As a frequent forest visitor, I feel responsible for, rather than entitled to the benefits of recreation in the National Forests when Congress is shedding its responsibility."
This fee was total bullshit and as Coz said, screwed over the poor. As far as that goes, if you don't think 5.5 million is enough to spend (I believe it's a lot more, nothing, I MEAN NOTHING is stopping you from sending the extra money in, I can get a link so you can do so since you are so damned supportive.
Or is it just meaningless lip flapping on your part?
Wait, was that $5,500,000? No - my mistake, I misread that, apparently $5,500,000,000.00 isn't enough. So send your money right on in there if YOU think it's the best use of your money. I don't, f*#k em.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Feb 29, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
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putting dosXX figures into perspective, in talking about federal priorities, that's $ 0.0006 trillion.
please don't feel alone, dos--we're not ganging up on you. just talk about the whole picture.
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neversummer
Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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Feb 29, 2012 - 02:06pm PT
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You aint gonna charge me to go to my church no more...nananananana
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Feb 29, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
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I do want to note the USFS is part of the Dept of Agriculture, and the Park Service & BLM are in Dept of Interior.
I always was slightly curious about how that came to be.
While reading a John Muir Bio this winter (John Muir Apostle of Nature), I finally got the explanation.
It was the result of a long-term struggle between Muir (conservation) & Gifford Pinchot (wise-use of forest resources).
Pinchot won the long struggle: when Congress gradually moved administration of the Forest Reserves,established in 1891, from Dept of Interior to Dept of Agriculture. Congress then established the Forest Service, with Pinchot in command, in 1905.
Pinchot also adopted the word Conservation for his "wise-use" policies and left Muir with being a------"Preservationist."
The National Park Service was finally established in 1925.
By contrast the BLM (Bureau of Livestock & Mining) is a recent creation.
The Bureau of Land Management was formed during a government reorganization in 1946, combining two former federal agencies -- the General Land Office and the U.S. Grazing Service.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 29, 2012 - 02:35pm PT
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It was just a scheme to take money out of your pocket, and give it to un-productive Federal "workers".
No, it was used to subsidize the big timber companies. Rather than charge them the market rate for taking our timber, they tried to take the money from us.
Yer both wrong.
The whole program was driven by a congrescritter from the midwest with NO USFS land in hs district, BUT he did have the contractor that collected the fines and did the paperwork as a constituent.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Feb 29, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
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Yay, whee hoo, huzzah!!!
Fuk that ripoff.
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Barbarian
Trad climber
New and Bionic too!
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Feb 29, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
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And, of course, the Fed will gladly issue refunds to those who have previously purchased Adventure Passes....
hahahahaha
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em kn0t
Trad climber
isle of wyde
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Feb 29, 2012 - 05:16pm PT
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Four thumbs up!!! -- Brutus is celebrating from his new home in the firmament. He abhorred the Adventure Pass concept.
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Reeotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, AZ
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Feb 29, 2012 - 05:25pm PT
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Aw shoot!
I always enjoyed writing nasty little tirades on those fee envelopes . . .
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Feb 29, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
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Wendell (TGT) is spot on. I think the congressman was from Ohio, but I'm not sure. The c*#k sucker sold out our land to get some pet project legislation of his own passed.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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personaslly, ive never had a wildrness permit,, pass, hiking ticket or any other such non sense...You have to draw a line somewhere.
there's a reason for that, ron, if you live way out in nevada. the adventure pass only targeted national forests close to larger urban areas--los angeles, denver, tucson were among them. my bro in alaska never got this nonsense. urban people are docile, backcountry rednecks take potshots at unpopular rangering.
the other buzz on this travesty was that it was heavily promoted by the theme park industry. people should get used to paying for their recreation. will it be a picnic up at switzer or a trip to disneyland this weekend?
i only know of one individual who was hauled into court for refusing to display the AP. his name is bob bartsch. i met him about 10 years ago close to the top of mt. baldy. he was in his 80s then, and i think he's still kicking like a mule. bob started a one-man assault on this "law", putting anti-AP literature on windshields right next to those tickets (which, in the tradition of orwellian newspeak, declared that "this is not a ticket"). they tried to make an example of him, basically selective prosecution to discourage dissent. here's to you, mr. bartsch.
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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I've never paid one penny towards the Adventure Pass!
I did get a ton of the fake tickets, most got thrown away, but I saved a few as souvenirs.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Fantastic news!
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craig mo
Trad climber
L.A. Ca.
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It should have happened a long time ago
It was supposed to be a new revenue stream not called a tax,
I hope that this is true i have always hated this idea of fees for access
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Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
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Let's recall the origin of this outrage. The Disney corporation was disturbed that there might be recreation opportunities that were free and that Disney might be at a competitive disadvantage. They applied political pressure to get this "inequity" rectified.
For more detail see: http://articles.latimes.com/1999/aug/29/local/me-4839
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apogee
climber
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Just received this notice from the Western Slope No Fee Coalition...seems the USFS is thumbing their nose at the District Court that ruled the Adventure Pass illegal, and plans to continue it's implementation.
This update wasn't posted on the Western Slope website when I received the email, but probably will be soon:
http://westernslopenofee.org/index2.php?display=yes&pageid=23
Here's a cut & paste from that email blast:
FOREST SERVICE DEFIES FEDERAL COURT
Will Continue To Charge Recreation Fees Ruled Illegal By 9th Circuit
In a press release issued March 1, 2012, the US Forest Service said they will continue to charge recreation fees that were recently ruled illegal by a unanimous decision in the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.
The Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act (FLREA) allows the Forest Service to charge a fee for use of developed recreation sites, but it prohibits charging those who don't actually use the developed facilities. The Forest Service has been evading the prohibitions in the FLREA by charging a fee for all uses within areas they designated as High Impact Recreation Areas, or HIRAs. There are 96 HIRAs nationwide. The agency claims that within a HIRA they can charge a fee for any use because developed facilities are provided, regardless whether they are used or not.
In a ruling that is binding in nine western states and sets a nationwide legal precedent, the 9th Circuit emphatically disagreed. Writing for the panel, Judge Robert Gettleman likened the Forest Service's HIRA argument to a restaurant patron confronted with an unexpected entry on his bill:
"If told that the fee was for ten bottles of wine that the patron's group neither ordered nor drank, the patron would rightly be outraged. He would not find much solace in a waiter's explanation that the wine cellar contained ten bottles, which the patron could have ordered if
he wished."
In their press release, the Forest Service says the ruling will have no effect on their recreation fees. They cite an internal review of HIRAs that has been underway since spring 2011, implying that the review was somehow the result of the court decision despite the contradictory timeframes. The internal review resulted in a recommendation in January to jettison the HIRA terminology, although what changes, if any, would result on the ground was uncertain. The review's findings were to go to regional citizen advisory committees, a process that could take over a year.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 13, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
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i told you they'd be back. to kill a vampire, you have to drive a stake through its heart.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Mar 13, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
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I don't care how many stakes you have Tony, if they have too much money, (they clearly do, despite FS protestations otherwise and you can tell they're over funded cause they pull this kind of crap) they'll keep rolling this bullshit our way as long as we keep sending them way too much scratch.
Thanks for that info on the leisure industry helping to effect this crap Eric. Time for a ground swell Disney protest?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 14, 2012 - 01:45am PT
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I don't care how many stakes you have Tony
I thought the only stake we needed was called the US Congress' Appropriations
Committee. One cross look from them ought to send those FS lackeys scurrying
to pick up trash tossed out of logging trucks instead of holding the people's
heritage hostage.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Mar 14, 2012 - 01:58am PT
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Speaking from a wholly self-interested point of view, does the following mean that Forest Service can't bust you for sleeping in the pullouts along US 120 to the east of Tioga Pass?
The Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act (“REA”)
prohibits the United States Forest Service from charging fees . . . .
“[f]or camping at undeveloped sites . . . .” 16 U.S.C. § 6802(d)(1)(A), (D) & (E).
Sounds like it.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Mar 14, 2012 - 07:59am PT
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Just received this notice from the Western Slope No Fee Coalition...seems the USFS is thumbing their nose at the District Court that ruled the Adventure Pass illegal, and plans to continue it's implementation.
I could have told you that would happen. I figured the local districts would continue to create their own policy regardless of any court ruling. Rincon.. your collection of unpaid "tickets" isn't finished yet. ;)
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
The Coast
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Mar 14, 2012 - 11:15am PT
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USFS launched the Adventure Pass under the auspices that
the funds would be used on projects that would benefit
the visiting public. Improved facilities near trail heads,
trail work, and staffing in the field. Three things I've
never seen at our congested Los Padres in Santa Barbara.
It appears they have turned the forest over to the Rocky Mountain Concessioner and washed their hands of the matter.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 14, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
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what you don't understand, reilly, is that the lackeys are in congress. beck's link tells you who calls the shots.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Mar 14, 2012 - 03:23pm PT
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I bought a day pass or two, and got a couple tickets I never paid....but out of easily hundreds of days/nights I was parked without a pass, thats not bad. My truck is memorable, and its been a regular all over san jacinto area for the 11 years ive had it. I can only imagine someone in the fs was watching out fpr me
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 14, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
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Tony, you need to hie yourself to the eye doctor if you didn't see the
sarcasm dripping from my post. I may not be the brightest bulb but I'm
not the most naive either. Besides, I grew up in Chicago. ;-)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 14, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
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uff-dah, reilly--that's the trouble with typing--all the vocal inflection is lost. my apologies. i grew up in chicago too.
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Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
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Apr 28, 2012 - 10:37pm PT
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I saw this last night. If you are heading up the hill it's just past red box/Mt. Wilson Road.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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I just got a ticket for not having a pass today. I was bouldering at Horse Flats but not parked in the campground, I was parked up the road at the other trailhead. I thought they were doing away with the pass in undeveloped area? What gives? In the past when I received a ticket I either ignored it or sent a letter in with the ticket saying I was using the wilderness for religious reasons and they never followed up, but that was back when the program started. We'll see what unfolds I guess?
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nature
climber
SoSlo, CO
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is it a ticket or a "notice of none compliance"?
if it's the latter you can just toss it.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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It says "this is not a ticket" so I am guessing a notice of non compliance. I think they are just trolling to get what they can before everyone knows its over.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i saw that sign too, tfish--it marks the boundary between an area where the pass is required and one where it isn't. i believe it's intended to soak the weekend picnickers at switzer's. you don't need it to enjoy hiking through the ash of the angeles national charred area, but you need it at baldy trailhead, and i recently got a ticket at horse flats too, for not displaying the pass quite according to government specification.
if you're confused, that's probably the way it's supposed to be. several of us have noticed that the area closure signs around williamson are gone. negligence, lack of concern, reopening, who knows. don't expect anything like credibility to come out of this outfit.
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nature
climber
SoSlo, CO
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Batrock, I'd check around a bit more but my guess is you are right - the are tooling around to get what ever you volunteer to them.
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Sparky
Trad climber
vagabond movin on
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Oct 24, 2012 - 07:21pm PT
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http://westernslopenofee.org/index2.php?display=yes&pageid=41
CALIFORNIA HIKERS SUE TO AXE ADVENTURE PASS
October 24, 2012
The U.S. Forest Service's "Adventure Pass" is being challenged in federal court by four southern California hikers. Under the Adventure Pass program, visitors are required to display a pass on their vehicle when they park on the Angeles, Cleveland, Los Padres, and San Bernardino National Forests, even when they do not use any developed facilities.
In a civil suit filed yesterday, Alasdair Coyne and Richard Fragosa, both of Ojai, John Karevoll of Running Springs, and Peter Wiechers of Kernville are asking the Los Angeles District Court for relief from having to pay a fee just to go for a hike in many popular parts of the four forests.
A similar fee on the Coronado National Forest in Arizona was struck down in February by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco. Writing for the unanimous three-judge panel, Judge Robert Gettleman said, "Everyone is entitled to enter national forests without paying a cent." That decision is binding in nine western states, including California, but the Forest Service has not yet made any changes to its Adventure Pass fee program, which is one of the largest in the nation.
"It should now be possible to go for a hike in your local forest without having to risk a ticket if you don't pay an access fee," says plaintiff Alasdair Coyne, Conservation Director of Keep Sespe Wild, a Los Padres watershed organization based in Ojai. "Eight months after the Arizona court ruling is quite enough time for the Forest Service to bring their other local fee programs into compliance. The Forest Service is not above the law."
Recreation fees on federal land are governed by the 2004 Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act, or REA. Fees are authorized under the REA for use of campgrounds and day use sites that meet certain minimum requirements, but fees are prohibited for some activities, even where those requirements are met. The activities for which fees are prohibited include parking, passing through without use of facilities and services, camping in dispersed undeveloped areas, and general access.
The hikers challenging the Adventure Pass are represented by public interest attorneys Matt Kenna of Durango, Colorado, and René Voss of San Anselmo, California, with support from the Colorado-based Western Slope No-Fee Coalition.
"The 9th Circuit ruling is quite clear that forest visitors who don't use developed facilities can't be charged a fee," said Coalition President Kitty Benzar. "Yet fee signage across southern California's four National Forests, as well as information on the Adventure Pass website, says you must pay just to park your car to access trails, rivers, lakes, and undeveloped backcountry. People are being intimidated into paying illegal fees under threat of federal prosecution. We are confident this lawsuit will put a stop to that."
The Forest Service has 60 days in which to respond to the lawsuit.
Read the lawsuit here http://www.westernslopenofee.org/pdfuploads/01-Adv._Pass_RecFee_Complaint_10-23-2012_Signed.pdf
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Oct 24, 2012 - 07:32pm PT
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I have never bought an adventure pass, and was never ticketed....maybe once or twice. I have done countless multiday trips parking on weekends at humber park in the height of summer. Never a ticket. I had an unmistakable POS truck and have been a san J local since 1999
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Sparky
Trad climber
vagabond movin on
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Oct 24, 2012 - 07:35pm PT
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Same. Never bought one and only had two tickets which I threw away. Had to renew my licence since those tickets. No problems. The adventure pass is total bullsh#t.
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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Oct 24, 2012 - 08:52pm PT
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I agree with Coz the fees to utilize our recreation areas keep the poor from taking advantage. Think of all the rangers driving around all day with nothing to do in jtree. Instead of us paying for 10-20 LEO's to do this as their daily activity we should use the blue phones in the campground to notify one ranger who should stay at the ranger station when there is a problem.
Peace Eric
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Oct 24, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
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our scofflaw forest service has had its adventure pass struck down multiple times by the court system, and yet it insists on--the best word i can think of--perpetrating this walt disney corporation-conceived travesty.
think the adventure pass is dead? every busy weekend up in the san gabriels there's armies of volunteer rangers patrolling every trailhead, ticket pad in hand. it's the only thing the forest service is good at. they're not very good at fighting forest fires any more.
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Onewhowalksonrocks
Mountain climber
portland, Maine
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Oct 24, 2012 - 11:19pm PT
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I stopped at the visitor center in Los Padre National Forest to ask about the Adventure Pass. I was told we don't need them if we stay on a road. Been climbing up there for the past four years never a problem. I haven't seen anyone use them at all up there.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:08am PT
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Instead of us paying for 10-20 LEO's to do this as their daily activity
More like 1-3, and they are busting ass from one place to the other. All the rangers I've met in the park have been courteous, cool, mostly were climbers as well and all really felt like regular people just trying to keep the park happy and healthy.
Oh, there was one cu.nt that worked in Indian Cove...
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:24am PT
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Gdavis I have met a few "ok" LEO rangers but far more "tools". We successfully had two removed to other assignments for being "tools" by writing letters. What do they do? I still stand by my statement that if there is a problem (camping dispute, dog, drunk, vandalism, harming wildlife) you can contact a ranger via the blue phone. Cuts down on the
need for them to drive all over for no real purpose. Crimes aren't really
happening for them to bust ass driving all over. Just my opinion.
Peace Eric
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 25, 2012 - 01:34am PT
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"In a civil suit filed yesterday, Alasdair Coyne and Richard Fragosa, both of Ojai, John Karevoll of Running Springs, and Peter Wiechers of Kernville are asking the Los Angeles District Court for relief from having to pay a fee just to go for a hike in many popular parts of the four forests. "
These are true Americans that deserve all of our respect.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jun 27, 2016 - 06:22am PT
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Agree with Tony and Apogee. Todays news, years after congress mandated that they cease with the BS, 4 Californians have won the right to walk in the woods without getting a ticket. IN CALIFORNIA. There has been a hodgepodge of lawsuits, pretty much overwhelmingly won by citizens, that have restated that this is the law, however, I don't believe that this is accepted throughout public lands by the Forest Circus yet. So your results may or may not be the same and you may or may not get a ticket for following the law and doing what is right. I would say that if the bureaucrats were to be held personally responsible for not following the law, they would fix this affront in other states much faster and without so much angst. Note that if you choose to use the facility's, you still need to pay for the pass or get a ticket. So the title of the thread, from 4 years back "RIP - Adventure Pass", has not come to pass.
Full text of the settlement:
http://www.westernslopenofee.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Settlement_Agreement-with-signatures_amended.pdf
If anyone else supports this effort, you can send some $ to these folks to offset mail and other costs: http://www.westernslopenofee.org/about/
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 27, 2016 - 06:34am PT
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I'm with Da Wolf.....
In truth, the adventure pass was a watershed moment for me. It was the proverbial straw that broke the dam open and represented the first time I simply said "Enough".
I never bought one, I never cared.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 27, 2016 - 06:45am PT
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Didn't you have an interagency pass? That always satisfies the requirement.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 27, 2016 - 08:43am PT
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If memory serves, when they first came out with this POS, it was only in a few areas (frequented by your truly) and wasn't covered by any other fee, tax, surcharge, penalty, admission or pass that was out there.
It may have changed as they decided to expand the bilking program.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 27, 2016 - 08:48am PT
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Does this mean that I no longer have to show my Senior Pass when I want to go look at the Point Loma Lighthouse?
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 27, 2016 - 09:02am PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^ Handicapped people have always been free I think.....
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dikhed
climber
State of fugue and disbelief
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Jun 27, 2016 - 09:06am PT
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don't you mean differently abled?
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 27, 2016 - 09:35am PT
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Oh, you mean like retarded? Yeah, that.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 27, 2016 - 10:30am PT
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Yeah coming from Estupido and a guy who goes by dikhed. Did your mommies write this stuff for ya.
Do you share the same mother? She appears to be as stupid as the two of you, which may explain giving birth to two Zika virus babies.
Get back to your little sandboxes before you soil your diapers.
I'm sure everyone is dying to hear the results of your recent lobotmies.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 27, 2016 - 11:11am PT
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It was a good guess apparently.
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dikhed
climber
State of fugue and disbelief
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Jun 27, 2016 - 11:29am PT
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Do you share the same mother?
yes, yours
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 27, 2016 - 01:00pm PT
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Sorry ass_hole, my mother is dead and since you don't know where she's buried, you must be practicing your necrophiliac preoccupations on your own and/or Estupido's. Not that you could tell the difference or would care.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2016 - 02:53pm PT
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Could we just get back to beating on the Forest Circus, please?
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dee ee
Mountain climber
Of THIS World (Planet Earth)
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Jun 27, 2016 - 06:20pm PT
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They still enforce this crap in So Cal.
Even after I finally gave up after years of not having one (and purchased one) a certain dickhead, low life, Lake Elsinore methhead ranger continued to take me on as his personal cause. I ended up in court when he continued to give me tickets even though I displayed my Adventure Pass.
I think that prick is gone now.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2016 - 07:57pm PT
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Nothing like government by the people for the people, eh?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 27, 2016 - 08:31pm PT
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Enforcement seems to be selective. Couple years ago I parked at the Devils Slide trailhead (humber Park) and as soon as I got out of my car a patrol ranger heading up asked to see my trail permit, which I had. He did not ask to see an Adventure Pass, I had forgot to bring my annual Pass. I never leave my annual pass in view, I am afraid it will get ripped off. I have never been cited.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 27, 2016 - 08:46pm PT
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I LOVE the Pt. Loma Lighthouse!
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| Messages 1 - 92 of total 92 in this topic |
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