Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 10, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
My Three Goals for SuperTopo Forum in 2012; what are yours?
Many thanks to everyone who contributed to the Improve SuperTopo 2012 Thread. That is, and will hopefully continue to be, a great place to post concrete, fix-it style improvements for the SuperTopo Forum.
Now here more generally is what I hope the SuperTopo Forum can achieve – the overall feel of the Taco.
1) Inspire, educate and humor each other
As I see it this is the whole point of the Forum; what the Forum is on its best days. There are a lot of amazing people here from wildly different backgrounds. It’s great how many different styles of information come forth, from people sharing wild winter ascents in the High Sierra to how to make the ultimate van conversion.
2) Preserve history
A lot of Historical Gold has been posted here from Yosemite, Colorado, Alaska and around the world. I love the fact that a web search for old climbing history often directs the searcher to the SuperTopo Forum. Best of all, many of the people who made that history post here! Some people have asked if this historical stuff is safe here. Answer: Yes. We have been around since 2000 (the Stone Age in climbing Forum time) and are not going anywhere. We have a business model learned from living in Camp 4: even with low income, you can always keep your expenses even lower. (And grab leftover pizza from the Curry Deck when necessary).
3) Have the most open home for discussion on the Internet
For good or bad, SuperTopo is the least moderated, least categorized, least divided up forum out there. One page, simple layout, post em' if ya got em' That is what people love and hate about the Forum, myself included.
There is always a tough balance between letting things be open and uncensored vs. creating a place where negative rants can push out all the good stuff. I appreciate the reminder emails from users that we can't just let EVERYTHING fly here at the risk of turning off the people who come to contribute, become inspired, and share awesome climbing/life adventures (see Points 1 and 2 above).
Since anyone can post as many times as they want, there is the ability for a person or group to steer the entire Forum to reading what they want by bumping their topics to the top. If a person or group chooses to do that, the Forum is no longer as free and open a place because they are taking disproportionate control of what the rest of the Forum sees listed on the top. We hope people will not abuse this power and for the most part people don't.
We depend on people to self-monitor. And when things get out of hand, which they sometimes do, we depend on Forum members to point this out.
OK, enough from me. What is your favorite part of the Forum? Where do you want to see the discussion headed? Post your thoughts here, or, more importantly, dig up your best, most hilarious, most inspiring stuff and post it on the Forum.
Many thanks to all that contribute here,
Chris McNamara
PS: While some forums have long rules lists, ours is pretty short and simple. It shows up on the right anytime you make a post and here it is:
Thanks for joining the conversation!
Our goal with the climbing Forum is to provide a resource for climbers of all skill levels and experience to get information about climbing and climbing destinations.
Please help us keep the climber's Forum a friendly and informative resource. If you find posts that are objectionable, please let us know. Although we can't control the content posted to the Forum or route beta sections, we will delete objectionable or offensive posts as we become aware of them.
We appreciate your support!
My First Forum "Video Reply" Post!!
This video below touches on what I have said here.
The original longer version that rambles on after 4 minutes is here. (My dad and wife recommended a tighter edit and I agree).
Thanks, Chris. Ever thought about getting a resident MD/PT or the like to contribute on a regular basis regarding climbing-related injuries and rehab? There's only so much Ron gomez can respond to, and since I'm currently redshirted it was on my mind...
Locker has all that covered. What are the rest of us sposed to do?
Keep him well supplied with glue so that he can continue to do his job.
But seriously, my only quibble with Supertopo as it has evolved is the ability of a very few people to wreck things for the many. One way they do this is though massively bumping threads that only they are interested in, and you've addressed that in your OP. The other is by turning disagreement into personal attack. When it gets to the point of threats, or of "You're a big f*#king douchebag", well, that's where a lot of us just disappear from threads we'd otherwise participate in.
Thanks for giving us a home.
Edit to add: I just watched the vid and you also addressed the second point I made, so no complaints from me.
5:55 in the video -- I hear this as saying that excessive posting (even without any offensive content), taking up all the forum bandwidth, is grounds for account deactivation.
Also, that explains some of the recent deactivations. It makes sense to me.
Way to go, sound philosophy all the way around. +1 for how you think and how you've left the forum uncategorized, otherwise it wouldn't be the dynamic forum it is, I don't think.
Hey, add a Donate button somewhere!
P.S.
Or perhaps, better, have a Donate Drive once a year, like Wiki. Yes, model on Wiki, with one or two inspirationals, personals, etc.. in the form of a sidebar. Certainly wouldn't be hard in this venue.
That was a well put impromptu talk Chris. Thanks for helping to clean this place up in a thoughtful way. Maybe I'll start coming back more often like I used to.
Thanks much Chris. It can't be easy being the father of this "thing" and this informal video of yours upthread is a very disarming continuation of your fundamental, friendly and highly motivated engagement with national and international climbing and with us. I am glad to see you doing what you can to keep Supertopo a place of real esteem, wit, and community; please don't doubt that many of us are with you on these goals and guidelines. Thanks tons!!
hey there say,chris... wonderful to hear from you...
and say,
the one page forum, is the best i've seen...
the ol' epilepsy forum that used to be so helpful to folks, to just click in to use... you'd see a list on the side, and click any of the (say 10 selections) and THEN still see a full page (or a one other click that simply offered all newest post, on one page, and since this was serious health issues, THAT was good to have)
WELLLL, THEY CHANGED IT ALL TO BE MORE MODERN AND FANCY, :o and many folks that were quality long time poster can not even be found anymore,
:( everything is piled over every thing, very sad.... :(
folks leave then, unless they are strong hard core computer folks that love to sit and dig through stuff...
or folks that are so in need of help and support that they have to fight extra hard for it, :(
welllll, YOU HERE, are easy to see,
easy to use,
and easy searches...
and it only take a CLICK to get to the next page of a WHOLE other 30 titles on a page all EASY TO FEW and easy to hit FIRST OR LAST POST...
also--trip report button, :) not too many buttons, so NOT all that awful overlapping hidden stuff... and trip reports SHOW on the regular page...
very good job for us simple folks on dial up, too....
PLEASEEEEEEEEEEE keep it simple, :)
lastly, neat, for videos, i myself can't do them with dial up, but wonderful they are, i must say...
this year is very busy for me, so i can only drop in and read fast, or reply fast, this year--but it WORKS wonderful...
god bless... thank you for making this supertopo open and friendly, and may the posters keep open to resepct your wishes are well, as to
how to handle discords, so they will not get 'dissed' = as in
DISconnected from us all....
:)
*sure wish the picture uploader has only ONE browser window to hit and sit through, though, hard for dial up... :) (takes twice as long for the picture to go through the systems)...
Wow, I was thinking you guys were all a bunch or ball cuppers.
But that was seriously cool.
Well said....
My goals?
Climb and meet with as many climbers, friends and ST folks as possible.
Been here since 2001 which is about 9 years longer than I usually stick with anything.
Literally been able to climb with 100's of people on here and that is a joy of my life that I cherish.
Climbing is everything to me but family comes first so ST is a great substitute for community when I can not always be in the community or on the rock. ( holy sh#t my stupid phone just tried to auto-correct rock to cock...glad I caught that)
Cheers to everyone!
Added goals - climb EL Cap again and then do another year end cumulative TR .
as a mostly lurker and one who tries to stay out of the more acrimonious stuff ... thanks very much Chris for everything you have done here, hosting this space, and this message too.
It's not an easy thing to create a community, I get the impression a lot of people tried that in real life in the 60s-70s with very mixed results, and after over 15 years online in various places I can see it's not easy in electronic space either. Your attempt to stay mostly hands off yet keep things from getting out of hand is both admirable and, never mind the glitches, I think impressively successful.
Chris, I think you are going about this all right. Take your time, make the moves you have been making with the Forum, spend time building gearlab etc. and whack the moles in as little time/effort/energy as possible.
I like your goals for the forum. Thanks for spelling them out so clearly.
I also liked seeing so many climbing threads on page 1 this morning! That's why I'm here.
My goals? First - get this brace off may back and get back on the rock. Second - Last time I was up on the Big Stone was Nov 1981. Seems like a long enough break. El Cap 2013!
Goals are fine but you're dealing with the reality of the ST community which will continue to support threads with a high religious, political or gossip content.
Everyone who posts here needs to read this. Especiallly people who post too much non-climbing stuff.
Chris:
I get what you are saying about knott moderating. The last thing anyone has time to do is go around editing other people's posts. Good.
You also say that you don't offer warnings to people who are crossing the line, but that when they do cross the line, you simply whack-a-mole them, often in response to emails of complaint from other forum users.
May I suggest one change to this strategy? If you start to receive repeated complaints about a user, have a form letter to that effect that you can email to this person, something along the lines of, "you are being an idiot, and unless you clean up your act starting right now, we will delete you." Send it once and then if the person doesn't heed, delete them. This seems more than fair, since your video post also suggests that you are willing to consider the petitions of those you ban, which is a good thing to do.
I think such a warning strategy might save us months of wading through annoying, irrelevant and unproductive posts from people like fattrad.
Here is an example - someone who has made 300 posts since January 22, all of which are non climbing. Clearly this is in direct opposition to Chris' forum goals outlined above:
The person linked above does knott even climb, and has cluttered this forum with over 21,000 annoying posts! Do you realize that this single non-climber user has made more than ONE PER CENT of all posts on this CLIMBING forum? You talk about one person using too much bandwidth unfairly. Take a look at the average number of words this person makes per post, and apply that to the one per cent above. How does it grow then? Two per cent? Three per cent? Do you "get" what I am saying here? If you are going to pull a few weeds out of your garden, this one might be worth pulling, too.
Thanks, Chris. It's excellent to know that you read emails, and act on them.
Thanks for the wonderful response, Chris! When you started all this, you could not have imagined the great value that the forum would have for so many of us. We reconnect with long lost friends, trade beta and get advice, support each other, read about amazing adventures of others and re-live some of our own. THis forum is a unique and valuable resource for many people and as noted above, has some of the best history of climbing to be found anywhere. Many thanks for putting up with us and for keeping the forum up and running.
Over the 2 1/2 years I have been hanging around this fire, I have had opportunity to meet in person many of the posters here, including many that post what I consider to be harsh, rude, insensitive, and downright nasty things. However, in person, these same posters are actually quite wonderful people.
What confounds me is why so many must be so outrageously nasty while around the virtual campfire. It's almost as if a whole different personality, ala Sybil, is inherent in countless people here.
Perhaps if everyone would treat others as if you were talking to them as a guest in your home, the issues that can plague this place would melt away. We might all end up with more friends as well....a pretty nice result, in my opinion.
It's called the 'Online disinhibition effect' Cragman. It's not only here on the taco, but other sites, emails, etc. Puzzles me as well. I try to only be me here and in person, but know of folks that revel in being the biggest tool they can online. Baffles me.
you can always keep your expenses even lower. (And grab leftover pizza from the Curry Deck when necessary
That made me hungry.
Were it not for this forum, I would not have met some great new friends and been re-united with old friends.
Excellent goals, and many thanks CMac!
Bump threads to the top only when someone new posts to it. A thread is bumped only when somebody who has not yet posted to it, posts to it. This would reward threads that bring in participation from the widest range of users.
If the same few people are posting over and over to a thread, then it is a private conversation and they can bookmark it to get to it. It does not need to be bumped to the top for those few people to find their thread.
Paul above has it right on. More than any other change, addressing the problem of the same 10 yakkers dumbing down every single thread, with their constant display of THEIR personality, would be a huge improvement.
Consider from time to time, "not posting". Maybe the topic is not an area where you have specific knowledge and the OP is hoping for some in-depth discussion on a climbing topic. It sucks then for that thread to go to 100 posts of mostly stupid, one-liners. It makes it so you can no longer access the info from the post, when it's buried in a mountain of crap.
Great post from CMac looking forewards. And a "nuking explanation" at the level of abstraction needed. I'm glad you do not get into details about why individual posters are nuked because I think that would end up in endless argumentation.
By the way - sad news from Norwegian climbing will soon reach some of you. Two excellent climbers have died in the Kjerag area. One of them is very well known internationally. The names are not official yet.
Yes, I agree Spider. It has to be a balance and one shouldn't be afraid to post, one line or 20. However, a small minority of posters on the site, post to the majority of all threads. So, they are who we get.
I have the utmost respect for Chris, but the people mentioned in the video who emailed complaints to him, come off like a bunch of self righteous tattletails or something.
Can we have a canadian section (free of political and religious debates because **it bores the f*#k outta us**)
Most Canadians consider ALL politicians to be liars/thieves/scumbags. So if you strongly identify with a political party, you are (or want to be) one of the above.
SuperTopo with a "Canada" tab. The mind boggles. As though we don't cause enough trouble around here already.
It would be this very wide but thin tab along the top of the page, wide enough to think it was part of the frame. The word Canada would be crunched down and hard to read, probably in italic font too.
And right below it would be the big garish American tab and you probably wouldn't notice the canada option there unless you were looking for it.
Chris, I wholeheartily concur. I noticed that you were not making eye contact with the camera and couldn't help but wonder, was this footage shot with one of those solar beardcams?
haven't you posted that you are a Christian? Maybe I am mistaken. The conclusion I reached from the beatitudes (amongst countless other passages) was to BE a bleeding heart liberal.
you've got an edit button there bluey. unless you're so bloody sure about demonstrating that your supertopo goal is to see the bar set at your particular brand of ugly,
i'd suggest trimming it back to language due the gentle lady.
Bluey is just reacting to the liberal bias he sees on ST.......remember that old right wing saw about the media liberal bias.....yeah, and I can sell you a bridge in Brooklyn.
From a social standpoint:
I agree to keep moderation light. The forum is fun because it's wild. Much like many climbers around the world. However, there are many intelligent climbers around the world as well. the whole purpose of the forum is to discuss climbing and related stuff. There are thousands (millions?) of other forums on the internet to discuss random nothings. Not that I dislike random nothings, but if you aren't going to police, than it becomes a USEABILITY issue, which brings me to...
From a technical standpoint:
Allowing users to quickly and easily navigate to EITHER the serious technical thread on gear etc.. OR to the political yelling match is the crux. Useability is what the web is about. Ideally, the forum would not be a forum at all. Forums have been around without much change to their format for over a decade. The future of online discussion is nested commenting with moderation and "karma" points, like you see on Reddit.com. Unfortunately to migrate the 1.5 million posts from the current database to that kind of format would be a pretty serious undertaking, at least from my perspective. Maybe some code guru could take it on.
But maybe there's a way to change what's already here to take the edge off of a couple of the issues here. The main problem, from my perspective is simple. It's all about the most recently commented upon topic bumping to the top of the front page. That's great for keeping the conversation going, but not so great for almost all other purposes, like finding a thread you want, or getting perspective on what's been posted when. This is especially apparent to me on the Trip Report section. The other problem with putting the posts with the most recent comments on the top is that it gives trolls too much power. The best way to kill a troll is to ignore it. But the troll knows that their comments will be seen if bumped to the top of the forum.
So here's two ideas. One is to split the front page into either 2 rows or two columns side by side. The top one is ordered by the date the post was posted on. Most recent ones go on top etc. This does not change until a new topic comes along, thus bumping it down. Then the 2nd column or row performs per usual.
The 2nd idea is like the first, but probably a better option. Leave the display how it is, but provide a "sort by date" option at the top and well as a "sort by last post" option. Then the users could browse how they want. Ideally the preference would be stored in a cookie for later. To really shake things up, the default view could be chronological instead of by last post. For the trip reports, I feel that's how it should be. For the front page, I'm not sure. It could decrease trolling but may also decrease participation.
Anyway, I actually don't come to the forum very often, so I offer this up with a grain of salt and digress to the members with much more invested here than me. I don't know all the ins and outs. Just a couple ideas to think about.
First off, let me say I've learned a great deal from lurking here. When the time comes when I have something significant to contribute to trip reports, etc., I will do so. Until then, I feel no need to chime in on every other thread.
Yes, keep the moderation going with a light hand. I can't see how it could practically be otherwise. BUT, please empower individual users to clean up the signal/noise ratio themselves with filtering tools. Let me "mark as read" every BS thread so that I never have to see it bubble up again. This is not cutting edge technology. Every Usenet newsreader client has had this capability for the last 20-something years.
If you can get this interface fix done you accomplish two things: You end the discussion about whether "real" climbing posts and OT posts should be split into separate areas (it'd take the wisdom of Solomon to judge one from the other). And you put it back on all of us to clean it up ourselves -- in a way that doesn't infringe on anyone's right to post or anyone else's sense of what's appropriate or inappropriate.
My goal for the next year is for my little girl to continue growing as a 5.12a climber and for our family to have many memorable Eastside trips.
CMAC,
I hope you read Blacksun's and Paul Martzen's posts above. And note, to date they have each posted only once on this thread. They actually had something to say but again their substance is buried in poop.
In short, take the power from the troll and attention seekers by changing the format so that the most recent post does not place that thread at the top of the list. We're hearing loud noise to signal ratio from just a very few.
Eh it seems ok for folks to see how things are done elsewhere and suggest some point improvements here, duddnit locker?
My only counsel would be the same as in the past... don't use phpBB and DON'T make this place look like 10,000 other forums.
A nice filter and some different post display rankings would be very useful tools for many folks, I think they are great ideas to toss into the R&D bucket, don't you?
cheers to locker--go for the gold! 50,000? 100,000? an even million?
lest we forget, there are physical limits to computer memory, even though it takes place at the molecular level which, i believe, is something like 10 to the -9 power meters. still, it consumes silicon. be sure to recycle your bottles.
"lest we forget, there are physical limits to computer memory"...
This of course is a GUD point and why I personally often go through my photo's here, and try and DELETE older ones that either I no longer like, or have been repeated, or complained about, or whatever...
Point being, perhaps it would benifit the site if we ALL went back and did some "House cleaning" on our own posts???...
Not sure how much it could be helping...
But it MUST help, some...
Mine is a LARGE task being such a prolifc poster...
"A nice filter and some different post display rankings would be very useful tools for many folks"...
A BANDAID!!!...
MIGHT do them better to deal with their INNER issues and why the fuk something as simple as an internet forum bothers them so...
It really is as easy as DON'T OPEN A THREAD that isn't interesting to you...
and if you open it and don't like what someone has posted...
MOVE ON!!!...
How fuking hard is that???...
But people STAY put and FOCUS on what bothers them...
They HYPER FOCUS and COMPLAIN and WHINE and CRY...
When all they have to do is just IGNORE it...
You done now?
I certainly would appreciate filter and sorting capacity. I don't really care if that represents some moral failing or impulse control issue on my part. I think many users here would appreciate such tools. That is all I am saying.
Many thanks to everyone for their awesome feedback and support!
The positive comments in this thread make me optimistic the Forum will continue to improve and inspire.… maybe even more so than it has in the past.
I got an email from one of the authors I mention in My Home Solar Panel TR "You have a lot of smart comments on your site--it's rare to find that in forum postings these days." Which was very cool to hear from an author I respect and who has never seen the site before. More confirmation that at its best, the forum is pretty sweet.
One suggestion we hear is the need to better inform people when their posts are objectionable. We are improving that process right now.
And it sounds like we should make more videos. Send your suggestions on topics. What do you want to know about SuperTopo? What topics do you want to see covered in videos? I am planning to make more how to aid climb videos shortly. I have also thought of making a video tour of the SuperTopo shipping center where Steve in Shipping (aka Dad), Summit, and myself ship out all the books. I have also thought of doing video tours of each guidebook. Let me know what you want to see.
And love the technical ideas on how the forum can be improved. We are always review those. Feel free to post them here or over at this thread
PS: I may have to write a trip report about drinking that 5 liter beer. I finished it, solo, but it was an adventure.
Speaking of filters, I have this crazy idea that will likely never fly, but it's a revolutionary idea...
What would this forum be like if people filtered themselves? As in, resisted the urge to post at every whim throughout each and every day?
Wat it boils down to is that it seems like a very select few make 95% of the posts here, and their constant, unrelenting presence disproportionally affects the flavor of the forum, for better or worse.
//I love how some people complain about having to search a couple of pages back to find whatever it is they wish to read...
As if that's a fuking HARD thing to do...
What a bunch of whiny, lazy, Mofo's!!!...
BIG FUKING DEAL!!!...
So hard to do!!!...
"Ouch!!! My finger hurts"...//
Hi Locker,
I'm not really afraid to put a little work into finding a post, so yeah, no problem searching back a few pages. The problem I have, is once you find the post, it's now got 800 posts or whatever, of mostly garbage that isn't relative at all to the topic. I've got better things to do than input all of that into my head and if that's true for a nobody like me, I'll bet a lot of the Jellos and Rgolds do too.
Not trying to whine and I suppose it's a losing battle but I'm not sure about the "don't fix what aint broke".
Hardman, that's about exactly what I'm trying to say too.
As in, resisted the urge to post at every whim throughout each and every day?
Brilliant! Ok, you get 100 posts per month. After that your quotas up until the end of the month. How many would have to find something else to do, like go climbing after day one? Too funny.
Isn't this what LEB did? Posted to every single thread, thereby monopolizing? There are a few that are no different. And funny, she actually changed. If she can do it, ask yourself if you can too!
And how much would that cut into the meager marginal revenues this site provides?
Keyclicks is assummed to relate to eyeballs, and eyeballs make money. If this place is ever to be sold for the big bucks, you can't be cutting into the keyclicks.
Locker, it's not that his point is useless. His point has validity and so does yours. And Roks too; I had never thought about key clicks. For the record I've enjoyed much of Rox and Locks sh#t. You don't tend to monopolize. But you know you can cross over that line. And yeah, I know there's is no rule but there's still a line. It's possible to contribute without holding down the spray button.
I really like David Plotnikoff's idea about a "mark as read" feature. That puts it in the control of the reader what they want to view, and doesn't change the forum at all for those who want it to stay the same.
I like this option much better than the "kill script" option that a lot of people use (which I do not want to use ).
I also like the idea of a "click to donate to the forum" button. These funds could be used for features and code upgrades that people want.
Yeah, limit the threads content, limit the most prolific posters to a hundred a month
It was a joke Rok.
That last "Where is this?" post was a great one, and old timey, so it pertains directly to the history of the mountains in Europe. And it went less than 20 posts, not because it wasn't good, but because the topic got expired in 20 posts.
Nothing wrong with that. A thread's greatness isn't determined by it's post count. On climbing topics sometimes the smaller is better. You know, less is more?
Thanks Chris. I have been unable to access ST at work for more than a week whike all other climbing sites work just fine. I wonder if some of the nastier material on here is causing it to be blocked.
I’ve been reading this site since its inception and the past few years have watched it circle the drain as far as any worthwhile content. The forum has become grossly over-represented by a few people with pretty obvious mental issues, social inadequacies and FAR too much time on their hands.
But I still drop by a few times a week and you know why? To find out who fukking died. So for me, and I doubt I’m alone, the site has become an obituary column. Pretty sad if you ask me, because it had potential to be a great place at one time. If I want to read trips reports, gear reviews, etc., I go to Mountain Project.
And to all the machine gun posters out there, here’s a suggestion: for EVERY post you make, make a commitment to get off your ass and do 10 pullups, or run a mile, or go for a bike ride. Anything. You’ll thank me for it someday.
I’ve been reading this site since its inception and the past few years have watched it circle the drain as far as any worthwhile content. The forum has become grossly over-represented by a few people with pretty obvious mental issues, social inadequacies and FAR too much time on their hands.
Take a look at this; hardest I've ever laughed. I took a look at my SuperTopo member messages and found this hillarious personal letter from RokJox, who goes by Lance. And now he's coming off on all the whiners who tattle to Chris and want to see changes. This is funny!
Can you say, HYPOCRITE?
Arne
Hi Arne;
Thanks for the guidebook, I'll try and look at it soon.
Here is something I have been sending to a VERY few, carefully selected ST Posters. It's gone out to a dozen or two people so far, mostly women actually. Your last letter makes me think you might be sympathic to the issue...
I have a message from Chris Mac that he actually suggested I share. As the world now knows, I talked with him over the weekend on the phone. (From the posts on the Topo, you'd think I called Homeland Security or something.) He said he will review everybodys concerns with a more decent site if you will email your stories/feelings to him and include the word "COMPLAINT!" in the subject line so he SEES it. He get hundreds of email spam a day, and just doesn't read most of it.
Do it SOON. It came from HIS mouth. "EMAIL THOSE YOU THINK HAVE A PROBLEM AND ASK THEM TO EMAIL ME" (or words to that effect).
I publically (online) complained about some of the things I was annoyed with, and THAT caused a fuss, when it got out.
I don't like the atmosphere on ST any longer. People are being dumped on, almost constantly. If some don't like what is being said, they have developed techniques to destroy th conversation. I did it, a lot of people are doing it, some much more than most. Especially to the women. Some have had all manner of vile things done, and not just on the site or with words. I have gotten some emails from some of the girls and they have had outrageous problems. There is NO reason women should be treated so poorly.
And I suppose somehow Men must fit in there too.
Many people have had pretty major problems just being nice decent people on that site, and its almost ALL from the same Five Guys. LOCKER and the four hoursemen; Pate, Skipt, Cosmic and the other guy, I can't remember his name.
One woman we ALL respect had pictures of her sold/given to a porno site with HER REAL NAME. She just got married, and says she does NOT post TR reports any more, because she is afraid of what would happen. I have had SEVERAL stories now sent to me like that.
One woman reports she has had all manner of lies about her sex life posted until when she Google's her name, she says the pages are full of it, and other things. Just "fun and games". Nothing serious, right? (Right.)
LEB right now has a photo circulating (FAKE) of HER on her knees with triple E's dragging the floor, its AWFUL. And a pack of bastards bitching that she wasn't pretty as a young woman. Its NOT true and its MEAN and VULGAR and calculated to HURT for NO reason. ITs a VICIOUS attack. It's certainly NOT funny or gentle and playful. They drove her away once, they want to do it again. Her only real "crime" is a baffling desire to talk with climbers. I don't understand it, but its there.
And then their are MY problems, that I never actually have explained, (and won't), but PISS ME OFF. I see no reason to accept a hatchet job like Lockers "amusing" campaign as "fun"
PLEASE pass this on to any others you think would be interested and have had problems, But DON'T let this get out to the Bad Actors, we already know what they think acceptable behaviour is.. DON'T TRUST FATTRAD for instance! If in doubt, leave them OUT. Far better too few than to be drowned out by spambots like Locker and Cosmo.
If we do it quickly, Chris's email list should begin to look pretty interesting with "COMPLAINT!!!" showing up over and over in the subject line, and the same kind of issues in the body of the message.
PLEASE don't hold back, this is it, Be BOLD and HARSH and TRUTHFUL, and MAYBE he will take some action in slapping down those who are causing so much pain. If nothing else, just say how you'd like to see the hurtful behaviour cut back a LITTLE bit.
It's NOT about censorship, it about maintaining a place where discussion and discourse can be had without it being shouted down by FIVE guys who can make a HUNDRED POSTS AN HOUR to drown out that discussion. And we KNOW that when THAT doesn't work, they do REALLY dirty tricks. ESPECIALLY to the WOMEN! There is NO excuse for that.
I believe we can actually make a change for the better. At least for a while.
I DON'T think this should get out to the general population of the Supertopo website just yet. Please allow the women especially to have a chance to say their piece,
Anyway, thats what I sent out to a couple dozen people total. It sounds sorta whiny even to me, but I don't know what else to do. I'm not used to trying to be an activist.
If you were just to copy your last email and forward it to Crhis Mac at Chris@supertopo.com, it would be enough.
RJ you may be right, but then again I may be right. I work for the government and do spend too much time on line but no one I work with has had these issues with facebook and other sites that people around here spend way more time on.
Thanks for the guidebook, I'll try and look at it soon.
Here is something I have been sending to a VERY few, carefully selected ST Posters. It's gone out to a dozen or two people so far, mostly women actually. Your last letter makes me think you might be sympathic to the issue...
I have a message from Chris Mac that he actually suggested I share. As the world now knows, I talked with him over the weekend on the phone. (From the posts on the Topo, you'd think I called Homeland Security or something.) He said he will review everybodys concerns with a more decent site if you will email your stories/feelings to him and include the word "COMPLAINT!" in the subject line so he SEES it. He get hundreds of email spam a day, and just doesn't read most of it.
Do it SOON. It came from HIS mouth. "EMAIL THOSE YOU THINK HAVE A PROBLEM AND ASK THEM TO EMAIL ME" (or words to that effect).
I publically (online) complained about some of the things I was annoyed with, and THAT caused a fuss, when it got out.
I don't like the atmosphere on ST any longer. People are being dumped on, almost constantly. If some don't like what is being said, they have developed techniques to destroy th conversation. I did it, a lot of people are doing it, some much more than most. Especially to the women. Some have had all manner of vile things done, and not just on the site or with words. I have gotten some emails from some of the girls and they have had outrageous problems. There is NO reason women should be treated so poorly.
And I suppose somehow Men must fit in there too.
Many people have had pretty major problems just being nice decent people on that site, and its almost ALL from the same Five Guys. LOCKER and the four hoursemen; Pate, Skipt, Cosmic and the other guy, I can't remember his name.
One woman we ALL respect had pictures of her sold/given to a porno site with HER REAL NAME. She just got married, and says she does NOT post TR reports any more, because she is afraid of what would happen. I have had SEVERAL stories now sent to me like that.
One woman reports she has had all manner of lies about her sex life posted until when she Google's her name, she says the pages are full of it, and other things. Just "fun and games". Nothing serious, right? (Right.)
LEB right now has a photo circulating (FAKE) of HER on her knees with triple E's dragging the floor, its AWFUL. And a pack of bastards bitching that she wasn't pretty as a young woman. Its NOT true and its MEAN and VULGAR and calculated to HURT for NO reason. ITs a VICIOUS attack. It's certainly NOT funny or gentle and playful. They drove her away once, they want to do it again. Her only real "crime" is a baffling desire to talk with climbers. I don't understand it, but its there.
And then their are MY problems, that I never actually have explained, (and won't), but PISS ME OFF. I see no reason to accept a hatchet job like Lockers "amusing" campaign as "fun"
PLEASE pass this on to any others you think would be interested and have had problems, But DON'T let this get out to the Bad Actors, we already know what they think acceptable behaviour is.. DON'T TRUST FATTRAD for instance! If in doubt, leave them OUT. Far better too few than to be drowned out by spambots like Locker and Cosmo.
If we do it quickly, Chris's email list should begin to look pretty interesting with "COMPLAINT!!!" showing up over and over in the subject line, and the same kind of issues in the body of the message.
PLEASE don't hold back, this is it, Be BOLD and HARSH and TRUTHFUL, and MAYBE he will take some action in slapping down those who are causing so much pain. If nothing else, just say how you'd like to see the hurtful behaviour cut back a LITTLE bit.
It's NOT about censorship, it about maintaining a place where discussion and discourse can be had without it being shouted down by FIVE guys who can make a HUNDRED POSTS AN HOUR to drown out that discussion. And we KNOW that when THAT doesn't work, they do REALLY dirty tricks. ESPECIALLY to the WOMEN! There is NO excuse for that.
I believe we can actually make a change for the better. At least for a while.
I DON'T think this should get out to the general population of the Supertopo website just yet. Please allow the women especially to have a chance to say their piece,
Anyway, thats what I sent out to a couple dozen people total. It sounds sorta whiny even to me, but I don't know what else to do. I'm not used to trying to be an activist.
If you were just to copy your last email and forward it to Crhis Mac at Chris@supertopo.com, it would be enough.
I’ve been reading this site since its inception and the past few years have watched it circle the drain as far as any worthwhile content.
If you really believe that, I'm VERY curious what you consider "worthwhile" content.
I've been reading and writing on this forum since the get-go, back when we didn't even need a username or login. The content here in the last few years is vastly superior in every way. There may be twice as much offtopic bs and vitriol too, but some of that comes along as a natural byproduct ofthe 10-fold increase in users over that time. The whole notion that suddenly all the posters of "worthwhile" content packed up and went away is comical.
Had a student check and they could not access the site as well. If employers are starting to block due to inappropriate material there will be a lot less posting. Do you know how hard it is to type on a phone.
Mike, typically if you are being blocked by a filter at your employer, it will alert you that you've triggered the filter. I get blocked from all kinds of places that are silly, for example if it is classified as a "blog" I can't access it, even if it's say Time Magazine's regular news coverage but calls itself a blog.
Google pics is blocked by one server, but I can re=route through our alternate and the it's not. "Personal" sites are blocked, but they allow access to Facebook (a serious case of WTF?!).
It is very, very unlikely that recent content on the forums has anything to do with your access issues.
Well, not that we are having a serious discussion about the issues of blocking users, here is Chris all-the-time-Farley working his way around prohibitions on talking to women.
Is there no end of Chris Farley all-the-time Farley: a jacket with a too much stuffing just waiting to explode. Just a tiny little prick and whoosh, it all comes out.
So, nowadays you're on the warpath then and treat everybody like sh#t, is that it? That's what it looks like to me.
What's really funny is how you were just brown nosing Locker and dogpiling on me about whining and then we get to see who's really the whiner. Locker knows.
Oh, my sides are aching right now, this is really fun!
This, campers, is why SuperTopo sucks: Chris starts a thread on his thoughts about the Forum and Rokjox and Ionlyski (but it could have been any number of other posters) have a snit, about something, but god only knows what.
No different from you then Roger. Cloggin up the thread with all your Farley crap. I couldn't figure out why you were doing that; kind of like the ponies I guess. Anyway, I agree with you and that's my point.
Rokjox/Lance, relax. I wouldn't have pulled that out after you gave it in trust but you don't look so good right now. Go back to version 1. You don't make a very good bully. You're doing exactly what you were crying about before. It doesn't matter if it's women or not. Your spray of hate stinks.
IGNORING THE SNIT ABOVE... Here's a suggestion for CMAC:
Add a "Flag as Inappropriate Button".
Have a database - if a particular user's posts are frequently flagged by a large number if different people, then take a look: if you agree, dump the person.
(the different people requirement prevents a single poster from getting many, many flags from the same person, possibly as revenge. There are other ways of doing that - e.g. limiting each poster to one flag per day, or something)
I appreciate the supertopo forum..........I enjoy the greatness, ignore the stuff that does not interest me, stay away from the negetive posts as much as possible, and try to contribe meaningful, entertaining, and upbeat posts......supertopo is like an awesome buffet.....just choose what you like for your plate, don't get what you don't like, don't over-eat, and enjoy what you pick.......
Have a database - if a particular user's posts are frequently flagged by a large number if different people, then take a look: if you agree, dump the person.
Good Idea.
I love the Taco for many reasons:
Most salient are: The Totem Pole thread, Castle Rock Spire, Stoney Point, Southern Sierra and many, many more show the true value of ST.
Many of the "old gang" are right here... almost everyday.
It is sort of how camp 4 was BITD... you needed to be tough and stand up for yourself. If you let folks know something was getting under your skin, you could get piled on fast. But that is just the way climbers are. But one thing was clear, one didn't HATE on someone. You dont like a person,-fine, give em room and look for room for yourself. As long as they climbed and had respect for the Stone they could stay at the fire.
But if some ass started breaking into cars, stealing gear, pissing on tents and otherwise acting in a horrible fashion... it was time to go get the RANGER.....
C Mac: like it or knot you need to be the Ranger.
Please follow your heart and do what you must do to save this place.
OH Yea, to answer the topic... 3 goals on the Forum: (same as my climbing) #1:Be Positive #2 Stay Positive #3 Play nice
I appreciate the supertopo forum..........I enjoy the greatness, ignore the stuff that does not interest me, stay away from the negetive posts as much as possible, and try to contribe meaningful, entertaining, and upbeat posts......supertopo is like an awesome buffet.....just choose what you like for your plate, don't get what you don't like, don't over-eat, and enjoy what you pick......
Todd, I agree, but what do you do if a big STEAMER gets tossed into the BLANQUETTE DE VEAU???? Sort of hard to eat around it.
The messaging function should probably be turned off. Seems like alot of dubious stuff is being spread under the radar (so to speak). If I need to say something that important to you, I can look up your number in the phonebook.
When the messaging function returned actual addresses to the user, I also saw that as a security flaw. Indeed, a 'bot once came through ST and apparently stole every address for purposes of spam. It was OBVIOUSLY insecure.
It is no longer wired that way.
And I would MUCH rather receive an email from a "dubious" person than a PHONE CALL. REALLY! Think about it. Use ME as an example.
I do NOT ordinarily publish my phone number, it is NOT in any current ordinary phone book most certainly, even IF you know my full name and location. Moreover, I AM posting under a pseudonym, and there IS a reason for that, even if it is not an impenetrable identity. I may not be trying to be invisible, but I ain't in witness protection either. Others may have far larger reasons than I do, but you will never know that either, because they will NOT tell you, you ain't got a need-to-know. THATS security.
If you NOW remove the messaging feature, you remove a most valuable method of association and communication that complements the ST's public pages.
There ARE good reasons for people to be able to email each other privately, and its a safety mechanism. It allows people to coordinate, to debate and discuss issues personally and presumably privately, before or instead of making that issue blatantly public.
Destroying that is not advancing the community OR security.
Even when the emails are used for ugly purposes (as it has, rarely, been used), it provides the recipient a warning and a link to the threat without requiring a response or even an acknowledgement of receipt. If the sender does not receive a reply, he never even actually knows if the email addy is a valid or a broken one with the present system. It helps that it has been mentioned occasionally that it seems broken for some people (even if it is not). And it can now be specifically turned OFF on an individual basis. Security is maintained. Hell, security is ENHANCED.
The email feature provides a service, a convenience, a warning, and perhaps even evidence, if needed.
It should be left alone, it is now secure, it IS useful and it does promote good will overall. It is also a safety feature, a popoff valve on the small boiler that ST may occasionally become.
I always thought Chris Farley was funny for about 15 seconds, and then he became tiresome. For his humor to remain fresh he needed to always push the envelope, to be more outrageous--but it was only funny for 15 seconds. He had to die young; he had nowhere else to go: SuperTopo hadn’t been created yet.
But I give the guy credit for making it his own.
I posted all my Farley crap because it clogged up the thread with more or less useless pictures of a guy who was famous for acting stupid. It was a stand-in über-poster. I also wanted to express my freedom of expression: I can post whatever I want as long as Chris doesn't ban me.
Sort of a,
Missing photo ID#237426
response to the self-serving justifications of “The forum is just fine for everyone as it is.”
I was also at the time trying to use my own face and identity here, as nothing but another climber, but that was before I decided to go on a war footing. Later, I began taking on the Che Guevara visage to symbolize my new commitment to fighting back HARD. Total war if necessary.
Up to several times a week with from 1 to 8 (or rarely even more) guys at a time, according... remember, I'm currently free/retired/unemployed. I am also within 15 minutes to an hour from a couple dozen different venues according to what I want to do.
My vote is to break this forum up into categories. I realize the changeover and archiving would be horrendous but there are way too many divergent topics on one page. For me, it takes too much time to plough through so I stay away. Some organization would be greatly appreciated!
Also, some sections should be moderated and some not.
Luke
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Let us know!