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Klienaman
Trad climber
Flagstaff, Az
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Nov 10, 2004 - 01:26pm PT
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Call me crazy but I'm a fan of ball nuts/Sliders for some free climbing applications. Like with all micro gear the smallest sizes are a bit dodgy, but I've taken a fall on one of the larger Sliders and am still here to tell the tale.
Kliena
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 10, 2004 - 09:47pm PT
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I love cam hooks and hate ball nuts.
I'm a cheap bastard and my parter also fixed a ball nut at the base of the circle on Zodiac. No problem, he sported me one and I didn't even ask.
I can't say that I have evidence to support my hate for ball nuts. Probably cause they fix easy, are expensive and not great for free climbing.
If I had more I'd take em though, as a last resort thing to try
peace
Karl
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Nov 10, 2004 - 10:45pm PT
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I've carried ball nutz on a million walls, because I like to imagine myself a clean trickster, and used em once that comes to mind. In the desert, scared the scheisse out of me, then it never came out. Free slider on Moses, circa 1996, whoever wants it!
Cam hooks and those micro Wild Country cams have made sliders obselete in my book.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 12, 2004 - 09:12am PT
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Gads, ball nuts. I hate the things. You used to find them stuck everywhere all over the Captain. I found like four or five fixed in the Nine O'Clock Roof on Zed-Em.
I haven't had the things on my rack in years. The only one I liked was the gold one.
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cybele
Ice climber
finally, west of the Mississippi
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Nov 12, 2004 - 06:02pm PT
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Will someone who uses the zero cams comment on the smallest purple size as compared to the next up, the green? I use the hell out of the green size, just love it and the grey and yellow. I noticed that above the yellow size (I think next is blue?), the profile of the unit (the axle length?) is longer than the comparable camming unit of another brand (alien, maybe?), so I never bought above yellow. I believe one advantage of the yellow zero over the TCU (would purple be similar, I forget? The grey Zero cam is a little smaller than the grey TCU, I think) is that the zero cam has 4 lobes so might be more stable in roofs, and other places it fits, no? I never got purple zero cam, the teeniest, cause it looked silly in the store, but after doing A3 clean it seems it would be a really nice thing to have for shallower thin placements where the blue ball nut would be hanging out a little. Before I spend the 55 bucks, I'd like to hear if fans of the various zero cams think purple places ok despite its tiny range. How bout removal? I haven't ever had any problem getting out green and larger. But purple looks like, maybe harder. Seems it would have to be jammed in there to even work, but maybe not. I'm curious. ?? I use the blue, red, and gold ball nuts a lot, like them a lot. They are in good when the trigger gets harder to pull. I do "set" them. And I look for the placement direction that uses the rock to the advantage, fits the shape of the ball nut. One of the mainstream aid climbing books has a nice picture of this idea (forget which). I truly hope I'm not annoying anyone posting my opinions though I'm a noob. I am an admitted gearhead, and I am small and light, and my favorite is this thin stuff, love smallest micronuts zero cams ball nuts etc. I posted primarily to solicit opinions from other thin clean aid fans who can recomment either for or against the purple zero cam.
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Demented
climber
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Nov 12, 2004 - 06:08pm PT
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Very cool. She seeks to climb hard aid. E, you’re a lucky man.
Regards,
Sewellymon (aka Brick, the famous author/ .screen writer)
p.s. sorry I’ve no response re; tiny cams. I’ve not seen the sharp end of hard aid in, oh,,. .. my entire lifetime?
.. so I am not worthy. Yet. someday i'll seek to climb hard aid, too tho
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cybele
Ice climber
finally, west of the Mississippi
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Nov 12, 2004 - 06:30pm PT
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Hey where'd my posting go? Clicked backspace and it went poof. But, Demented, funny, I had your first version up and then
on the next computer over E pulled up the page with a new version, editing in action, haha. Anyway he is NOT such a lucky guy when he has to sit as long as it takes me to do leads... feel SORRY for him! !
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Demented
climber
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Nov 12, 2004 - 06:32pm PT
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yea. me writing "Wow . a woman who seeks to climb hard aid" sounds sexist. plus, i figure you'd cut my nuts off and i am so whipped as it is, i gotta try and keep what's left.
want act 2 of "E stars in Made for TV Madness?"
nah... but it'd be great if it were a cartoon
E- did you ever draw those outragious "topos"? Fish and all them who were bored and dirty in Camp 4 made eleborate shizt-spewing drawings. they were maximum cruel
fish- you should scan one and post it. if you saved any from the Great Days
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cybele
Ice climber
finally, west of the Mississippi
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Nov 12, 2004 - 06:36pm PT
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D (Brick) : want act 2 of "E stars in Made for TV Madness?"
E : Yes Jeff I want it, lay it down, baby.
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Demented
climber
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Nov 13, 2004 - 02:12pm PT
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E- I do have a creative plot I could flesh out into a short script. I'll do it soon enuff. Fun spray. Hope people laugh.
cya,
Jeff
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Sitting at home all miserable and thought I might post up something climbing related.
I picked up one each of the 2 smallest sized ball nuts by Camp. I know a fair number of people hate these things, but I have had a couple people tell me that they can work really well with some practice. Even picked up a skinny piton and a small hammer to help clean the suckers. So far I've just played with them; no serious placements. I think they could be useful in these thin cracks under the overlaps, particularly on El Grandote at Tahquitz where there is a staircase of 'em on the third pitch.
Anybody use these? Any use or cleaning tips?
Both the blue and the red ones (two smallest) are rated to 8KN each. Just to be clear, I'm planning on using them free climbing.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Here's my post on the subject from two years ago on MP. Most of the post is a quote from Joe Healy eleven years ago, lifted from rc.com.
Ballnuts are specialty pieces which (in the two smallest sizes) can provide protection in thin cracks that won't take the smallest cams. They are tricky to place, potentially unstable, and can be difficult to clean. If you intend to rely on them, you'll have to practice and test placements quite a bit to get a feel for what will and will not work. You can't just plug 'em in, so (on harder climbs) you need both mental and physical fortitude to hang on and get them placed correctly.
The following post from Joe Healy on rc.com is by far the best account of how to use Ballnuts that I've seen http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2352968;search_string=ballnuts;#2352968:
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"A popular myth about Ball nuts is they either come out easy or get welded easy - neither is true and both are a result of bad placements and operator error. Well placed Ball nuts are way better than today's "Microcams" and come out easy. I've taken multiple big [free] dives on about every conceivable placement and never had a single one not simply come right out. That said, 98% of my use of them is for free climbing and there are probably aid situations where unavoidable rotation and undesirable movement can cause problems, but while the following comments apply equally to aid climbing, they are derived from decades of using and falling on them free climbing...
For the ball nuts you kind of have to mentally scope everything way, way down to where you are working in the land of millimeters and 1/64". By this I mean it is really worth sitting down with a ball nut and examining it with a macroscopic if not near microscopic perspective to really understand how and why it works and how it can work optimally. The first thing to notice is the relationship of the size of the ball to the blade/paddle slot; second is to really be cognizant of the total range of travel of the ball over the blade/paddle and the slot it houses. On most of them the ball can travel from beyond to slot to before the slot when you retract the spring.
The name of the game is where over the course of that travel will make the most secure placement. Another very important consideration is the "cinching" it will want to do in a fall or if you "set" it. That cinching/setting action by definition implies some amount of ball travel in the slot is going to take place. Anticipating and accomodating that ball travel is the name of the game in using them effectively. To do that you need narrower starting placement where the ball is only about a 1/4 of the way up from the initial bottom edge [widest] of the slot. That will mean when it cinches up in a fall or you set it hard it should end up cinched up to somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 of the way to the end of the blade/paddle/slot. This is the most essential aspect of using ball nuts.
The other important aspect of using them is the [material] strength, texture, and topology of the crack you are placing it in. Obviously the harder the material the better. Surface texture does count in terms of how fast the blade travels in the cinching/setting process - completely slick, polished rock better be damn hard to stop the travel whereas a slightly rougher surface (such as our basalt here) is better as the blade/paddle cinches slower. As for topology, ideally you are looking for at least a slight constriction or contusion as opposed to an absolutely parallel sided affair.
The key to placing them is to get your face and eyeballs in there to the macro level and really understand all three aspects of any potential placement - hardness, texture, and shape. Placing ball nuts is not a slam and jerk affair, but rather requires close inspection, precise placement that takes advantage of every subtle feature, and most of all the resulting placement has to guarantee that the ball ends up in a position relative to the blade/paddle such that there is no possibility of the piece cinching up so much that the ball rides right over the end of the blade/paddle.
Again, to be clear, that means at max load in a fall the ball has adequate slot to travel and still not run off the end. So a placement where the ball starts out 2/3's of the way out the blade/paddle may not hold by the time it really cinches up in a fall unless it is in really hard rock and the topology of the placement won't allow it to travel far."
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Additional observations:
(1) When placing, you want to get the ball to "stick." Under load, the "paddle" travels, not the ball. If the ball moves, the piece will probably blow. So in addition to getting the ball in an appropriate spot on the paddle so it doesn't run off the end under load, you want to find the best "sticky" spot for it. This could involve texture, mini-protrusions, or constrictions.
(2) Ballnuts should be set and tested with jerks. You better be holdin' on hard with the free hand when you do this, because if they do come out it could easily cause a fall.
(3) Rotation can make Ballnuts blow. Think carefully about rope motions and slingage.
(4) To remove, you have to reverse the paddle wedging action, and the trigger isn't always effective enough. Tapping on the edge of the "paddle," i.e. pushing the paddle in a little bit, will free up the ball to be further triggered. Unfortunately, the edge of the paddle in the smallest Ballnuts might be too thin to tap easily with a nut tool. Rotation, mentioned above as being bad, can sometimes facilitate removal.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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A more pressing question is why does the thread author on front page say Guido, and then the OP is by Ben?
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Great post and link rgold. Thank you very much!
Just looking at the ball nut, the round brass slider is the part that sticks and the steel base should slide a bit to lock the piece into place. It seems to me that the placement should in a relatively parallel crack to maximize surface contact, but using the micro contour to seat the thing in the most stable position possible. Point well taken on direction of force and placement of the ball nut.
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Rankin
Social climber
Winston-Salem, North Carolina
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I carry a #1, #2, and #3 Ballnut on my free rack as they can be the best piece available sometimes. They're quite strong, 7 kN for the smallest and 8 kN for the rest. Getting them to set can be tricky but not that bad really.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Methinks Bruce has it right!
Why is Guido (joe faintovic) listed on the thread, but Ben is
the top entry???? Inquiring minds want to know!!!!
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