Cerro Torre, A Mountain Consecrated - The Resurrection of th

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Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 24, 2012 - 06:53am PT
Official photo of El Chalten Climber Riot:


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 24, 2012 - 07:08am PT
Ignoring that statement, would you agree that anybody can go to a foreign country and chop an historical route without the approval of the locals?

I know that Maestri somehow did the same, nevertheless I'm interested to your answer, if you want to reply.

The notion of the compressor as a "historical route" is the first problem I have with your question. Other than the bolting unfortunately happened, I find nothing "historical" about the route beyond the sad fact it was not 'historically' cleaned up up shortly after the debacle occurred. The second is of the notion of "locals" in this context. Rolo makes the point there are effectively no "locals" when it comes to CT beyond those who love it and have invested time there to climb it.

The only arrogance in my eyes is Maestri's rape of the stone and any efforts to right that tragedy by repairing the stone to the degree possible are welcome (spoken as a non-local, but someone who still aspires to make the trip).
giggio

climber
Milano, Italy
Jan 24, 2012 - 07:16am PT
The 2007 meet and "democratic vote" was little more than a farce. There was no democracy at work because few, if any, true "local climbers" were present. The assembly participants were clearly not a good "sample" of this "particular universe". The decision was nowhere close to being a "community agreement".

Just one question: did you set up a similar meeting involving all the "real locals"?
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jan 24, 2012 - 07:19am PT
Questions for Rolo:

"and I certainly did not see them anywhere when two of us went to chop those bolts."

1) Did you chop Lama's bolts? If so, who added these bolts and why? The climber or his film crew? [It is hard to follow the entire story from over here, so please give us a bit of a recap.] Where were the bolts you chopped located, how were they installed, and when did you do it? What is the condition of the holes now?

"The police played along with the mob and that is quite worrisome. The police should have detained the mob and not the two people in question."

2) Are you kidding? Was there really some kind of mob scene? What happened?! That's amazing.

It would be really great if someone could find and either link or scan and post Ken Wilson's editorial[s] from Mountain Magazine back in the day, and perhaps Reinhold Messner's comments from back then too, please.

enzolino

climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
Jan 24, 2012 - 07:43am PT
The community of climbers that made and make the history of these mountains, that love them dearly, that "take care of them" has existed since well before the town of El Chalten was established (1985 aprox) and populated (1990s).

Although I reside in Chalten, place of residence to me means nothing. A "local" in my view is anyone that devotes himself passionately, in deed, to a given place, regardless of his/her nationality or origin. Silvo Karo is surely a "local climber" although he is Slovene and does not speak a word of Spanish. Ermanno Salvaterra with his more that 50 bivys on the walls of Cerro Torre is surely a local too, the most local of all locals. True locals, in the ethnic and historic sense of the word don't exist here. Place of residence or origin are of little substance.

The 2007 meet and "democratic vote" was little more than a farce. There was no democracy at work because few, if any, true "local climbers" were present. The assembly participants were clearly not a good "sample" of this "particular universe". The decision was nowhere close to being a "community agreement".

Also, I wonder where were these "self appointed locals" in 2010 when Lama's film crew added a bunch of bolts to "their" "historic route"? I did not see them rioting outside of Lama crew's residence, or taking Heli Putz -the head rigger- to the police, and I certainly did not see them anywhere when two of us went to chop those bolts. Was this lack of involvement on their part some sort of selective "historic preservation" since the Lama bolts would have made the mountain even more accessible?
Besises the questions appointed by the others, do you believe that someone who "devotes himself passionately, in deed, to a given place, regardless of his/her nationality or origin"
 would throw the aluminium capsule of more than 200 chilograms on Cerro Torre's Glacier, after climbing the Route, like Salvaterra did in 1995?
 changes the toponym of the area and re-write history just because of his arbitrary and disputable choices and ethics, and just because "he" climbed there?
Do you think that Kennedy and Kruk are "real locals"?

At least, what you called "a little more than a farse", was an attempt to take a decision on a broader basis than that of two boys who decide suddenly to chop the Compressor route on the top of Cerro Torre.

To me, all this issue rather suggests that the driving force of this campaign and these choices, more than the love for a mountain, is the insane love for his own and huge Ego and integralist climbing fundamentalism.
Randisi

Boulder climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Jan 24, 2012 - 07:49am PT
Check out this thread:

It's Time to Remove the Half Dome Cables, started by none other than our own Jim Donini:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1460794/Its-time-to-remove-the-Half-Dome-cables
enzolino

climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
Jan 24, 2012 - 07:49am PT
The notion of the compressor as a "historical route" is the first problem I have with your question. Other than the bolting unfortunately happened, I find nothing "historical" about the route beyond the sad fact it was not 'historically' cleaned up up shortly after the debacle occurred. The second is of the notion of "locals" in this context. Rolo makes the point there are effectively no "locals" when it comes to CT beyond those who love it and have invested time there to climb it.

The only arrogance in my eyes is Maestri's rape of the stone and any efforts to right that tragedy by repairing the stone to the degree possible are welcome (spoken as a non-local, but someone who still aspires to make the trip).
Healyje,
I disagree but I respect your opinion as far as you extend your concept of "historical routes" to all climbs with bolt ladders, such as the Nose or others ... otherwise, I would think that you have a double standard and such a narrow tunnel vision concerning ethics in climbing to have very low credibility ...

Although I find it a bit fundamentalist, I really respect who pursues cleaner and wilder mountains ... but in this case I have strong doubts concerning the action of Garibotti and his followers ...

As far as the concept of "locals" concern, I'm afraid but to me Garibotti's view is too much blurred and self-centered ...
enzolino

climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
Jan 24, 2012 - 07:54am PT
Check out this thread:

It's Time to Remove the Half Dome Cables, started by none other than our own Jim Donini:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1460794/Its-time-to-remove-the-Half-Dome-cables
Thanks for the link ... it's interesting ... I didn't like them very much ... but it also looks a bit elitistic from climbers to remove them ... but I would agree with that ...

But I think routes like the Nose or Lost Arrow are a different issue ... they concern the climbers rather than the hiker domain ...
f˛radaiball

Social climber
italy
Jan 24, 2012 - 08:08am PT
@rolo
1. Che l'assemblea sia stata poco pi¨ che una farsa non sei tu a deciderlo, altrimenti sei un arrogante come chi ha tolto i chiodi. C'eri anche tu all'assemblea?
2. Se volevi imporre la tua idea, bastava che mostrassi il tuo disaccordo e quello di un bel gruppo di persone, facessi convocare tu una regolare assemblea, con validi motivi per annullare l'altra, e ovviamente non chiamando chi ti pare, ma con dei corretti criteri, volti a tutelare innanzitutto le popolazioni residenti nelle nazioni in cui si trova la Patagonia. Non ti Ŕ piaciuta l'assemblea, perchŔ non ha dato il risultato che tu speravi? Se veniva deciso di togliere tutto, l'assemblea era regolare?
3. Sei d'accordo con chi ha tolto i chiodi ? Gli hai consigliato tu di toglierli? Sei contento che l'hanno fatto, e l'hai manifestato a loro?
4. Tutto il resto Ŕ dare aria ai polmoni
5. Chiedere Ŕ lecito, rispondere Ŕ cortesia: vedi tu


bye
f˛radaiball

Social climber
italy
Jan 24, 2012 - 08:16am PT
"Also, I wonder where were these "self appointed locals" in 2010 when Lama's film crew added a bunch of bolts to "their" "historic route"? I did not see them rioting outside of Lama crew's residence, or taking Heli Putz -the head rigger- to the police, and I certainly did not see them anywhere when two of us went to chop those bolts. Was this lack of involvement on their part some sort of selective "historic preservation" since the Lama bolts would have made the mountain even more accessible? "

Rolo throwing down the gauntlet!

Great post all around rolo.

la polizia interviene quando c'Ŕ da far rispettare delle regole, non siete nella foresta

sapevate benissimo che le regole c'erano, ma avete voluto oltraggiarle, ed avete provocato l'intervento delle forze dell'ordine (che non si chiamano cosý tanto per...)

oltretutto, se da questo momento dovesse esserci una restrizione della libertÓ di svolgere l'arrampicata, azione adottata in molte altre zone di arrampicata, sarÓ esclusivamente per responsabilitÓ di chi le poche regole attuali non le ha rispettate, sapendo di provocare una battaglia, nella quale Ŕ logico che intervengano le forze di polizia

non tentate di scaricare le vostre responsabilitÓ su "assemblee assurde", perchŔ non ci sono pi¨ polli da prendere in giro
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jan 24, 2012 - 08:23am PT
Angry guy said:
non tentate di scaricare le vostre responsabilitÓ su "assemblee assurde", perchŔ non ci sono pi¨ polli da prendere in giro

Which, according to google, means "do not attempt to download your responsibilities on "assemblies absurd" because there are no more chickens to tease."

"No more chickens to tease."

Literal translations of idiomatic expressions are weird.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 24, 2012 - 08:25am PT
otherwise, I would think that you have a double standard

There is no single standard. Every climber hosts double (triple, quadruple, etc.) standards. Its not really something to get all twisted up about. What applies in Patagonia on Cerro Torre doesn't have to apply to El Cap or Squamish and in fact in most cases will not apply.

Its just the way it is. Ethics are inherently local and applying a global (unicorn) standard is a waste of effort.

Climbing ethics as applied in practice are not one-size fits all.

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 24, 2012 - 08:26am PT
Please don't tease your chicken when I'm around. Its very disturbing.

DMT
f˛radaiball

Social climber
italy
Jan 24, 2012 - 08:31am PT
purtroppo il pollo inquietante che vedi, Ŕ la tua ombra
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 24, 2012 - 08:34am PT
Could we get a more skilled translator in here please.




Climber riot?

Makes me think of the police chief in Young Frankenstein.
enzolino

climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
Jan 24, 2012 - 08:36am PT
There is no single standard. Every climber hosts double (triple, quadruple, etc.) standards. Its not really something to get all twisted up about. What applies in Patagonia on Cerro Torre doesn't have to apply to El Cap or Squamish and in fact in most cases will not apply.

Its just the way it is. Ethics are inherently local and applying a global (unicorn) standard is a waste of effort.

Climbing ethics as applied in practice are not one-size fits all.
That's right ... but as you tolerate multiple standards, I don't like fundamentalism and arrogance ...
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Jan 24, 2012 - 08:38am PT
Given that you can't scratch yourself on the Nose without holding up another team, having it appear in someone's vacation photo album, and/or becoming part of the high def show at the bridge, it makes me wonder...

If people came to chop summit bolts on the Nose, would the vigilante response happen on route? It kind of makes me laugh to imagine an angry mob pacing 50 ft. above the choppers waiting for them to finish doing their thing.
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Jan 24, 2012 - 08:48am PT
wow, I had not realized how much Italians love climbing bolt ladders! Psyched for k & k! Great job boys!
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Jan 24, 2012 - 09:02am PT
Kalen-

You have no idea..

Mucci
enzolino

climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
Jan 24, 2012 - 09:15am PT
I want to add a few words ...

Nobody ever mentioned "residents", and I consider Rolo a "local" in Patagonia ... and it's quite evident that he cares a lot about that place ... but this doesn't mean that he has to make of his belief a foundamentalist religion and Patagonia his temple ...

And if we apply his concept of "locals" ... well ... in his 1970 climb, Maestri spent 54 days on Cerro Torre and 28 on the hamac ... in comparison "actual locals" are sissies ... :-)

Alright guys and girls ... I'm going to climb ...

Bye ...

PS. Italians are lazy ... if they would chop the Nose's bolt ladders, they would do it from the top, with a nice american girl ... spending a romantic night on one of those beautiful ledges eating pazza and pizza and doing something else ... ;-)))
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