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Kimbo
Trad climber
seattle
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Jan 25, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
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Cerro Torre is the art and the compressor the desecration - how do you get that so ass backwards?
cerro torre is a piece of rock, sculpted/formed by the impersonal(?) forces of nature; in no way does it fit the definition of "art".
it doesn't give a hoot if someone stuck 10 pounds of metal into it once upon a time; it takes a human with ideas in her/his head for that!
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 25, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
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That's great that you got to state your points Kimbo.
But that facts are in spite of general disagreement Maestri was not swayed from his actions when he was the vanguard nor were K&K.
They changed nothing but the future which has already happened.
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Kimbo
Trad climber
seattle
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Jan 25, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
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i do find the lack of responses to the argentinian's letter posted on a previous page both interesting and telling, a continuation of the seeming arrogance that the "pro bolt-remover" crowd seems to display....
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Kinobi
climber
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Jan 25, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
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@Kimbo
OT: "silly pomp" is, more or less, "blowjob" in Italian.
Great post.
E
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Kimbo
Trad climber
seattle
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Jan 25, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
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But that facts are in spite of general disagreement Maestri was not swayed from his actions when he was the vanguard nor were K&K.
no one listed above fits the definition of "vanguard" (based on their actions on cerro torre).
They changed nothing but the future which has already happened.
it's interesting to ponder the notion that the future "has already happened"....
maybe someone has more on this.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 25, 2012 - 12:51pm PT
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Silly Pomp = Italian Blow Job.
WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
;0
Love it.
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Jean Gurtorju
climber
land of echoes
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Jan 25, 2012 - 12:52pm PT
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Hi guys...
above a photo of Buddha of Bamiyan, destroyed by ignorance, fundamentalism and the inability to understand the thoughts of others, qualities that characterize the Afghan Talibans.
Well, in the K & K's act I see the same qualities: violence, intolerance, the presumption of being right, arrogance towards those who don't think like them and democratically expressed it in the assembly of El Chalten.
This whole story is very sad.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
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Impossible to destroy Buddha.
Can never ever be done ever.
If one "thinks" it can be done then they do not know who "Buddha" really is .....
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jan 25, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
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The vanguard do not ask permission. Neither does the deviant. Kind of hard to see the difference here.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 25, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
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Jean there is not the slightest comparison between these acts.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 25, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
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Now I've heard it all. Comparing the Taliban blowing up ancient Buddha statues or defacing the Mona Lisa to stripping some unsightly machine bolts from a rock face? I mean, seriously?
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jan 25, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
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Ahh, the Taliban make an appearance. Greg Crouch, in his blog entry about the bolt chopping, actually mentioned Auschwitz.
Outstanding!
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jan 25, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
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@Jean
Totally inappropriate metaphor. You are implicitly comparing Maestri's bolts to the buddhas of Bamiyan. While both were acts of religious mania, only one is actual archaeology and a skillful work of art.
Furthermore, you are associating K & K with the Taliban. That's just wrong on many levels.
Try again.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 25, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
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From the interview to David Lama
http://www.lacachania.com.ar/noticia.php?id_nota=193&id_seccion=4
(the last sentence was not so clear to translate)
What's your opinion about what Jason K. and Hyden K did?
They climbed a route without using bolts, that is actually ok, that's their style and it's fine. But what they did during the decent, to remove the bolts, was not very intelligent. I believe they were not entitled to do it.
What do you think about the discussion that was triggered regarding Maestri's bolts? Is it fair to use them to reach the summit? Is it fair to use any mean to achieve the goal?
I think the matter is more about destroying or not. In my opinion, for the first ascent (Maestri's), he was entitled to do on the mountain whatever he wanted to do, and at the same time he should have made his best. In both cases, adding or removing bolts, destroy the route. It's destroying what some body else has done and nobody is entitled to destroy it. The issue are not your skills, whether you're able to climb with or without bolts, but the fact thyt they were on the wall, then who is entitled to add or remove bolts if you're not able to climb (the route)?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 25, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
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above a photo of Buddha of Bamiyan, destroyed by ignorance, fundamentalism and the inability to understand the thoughts of others, qualities that characterize the Afghan Talibans. Well, in the K & K's act I see the same qualities: violence, intolerance, the presumption of being right, arrogance towards those who don't think like them and democratically expressed it in the assembly of El Chalten.
Cerro Torre is the Buddha, the compressor route is the RPG - how is it you guys keep getting it completely ass backwards?
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ALPINEMAN
Trad climber
bogota
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Jan 25, 2012 - 01:10pm PT
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What's your opinion about what Jason K. and Hyden K did?
They climbed a route without using bolts, that is actually ok, that's their style and it's fine.
not correct: 5 bolts
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Jean Gurtorju
climber
land of echoes
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Jan 25, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
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Philo, not only do I think there is the comparison, but I think, as I wrote, that the thoughts behind these acts are the same: violence, ignorance, fundamentalism.
But, as Murakami Haruki in his last great book: "if you do not know by yourself there are no words that can explain it to you."
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MH2
climber
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Jan 25, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
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@Kimbo: i do find the lack of responses to the argentinian's letter posted on a previous page both interesting and telling
The issues here are emotional and appealing to logic and drawing analogies don't settle the dust. It does make some sense to me from my worm's-eye view that the involvement of Cesarino Fava in this story is important and that if the Argentines (or Italians or anyone else) feel that his memory has been disrespected, that shifts my own feelings toward having kept the Compressor business as it was.
http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web08s/wfeature-cesarino-fava-tribute
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 25, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
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They're not fundamentalists, obviously.
In this case it's clearly a forest-for-the-trees sort of deal only instead it's can't-see-the-mountain-for-the-bolts.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 25, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
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But, as Murakami Haruki in his last great book: "if you do not know by yourself there are no words that can explain it to you."
But that statement applies just as much to you as to Phil. In fact it is the fundamental underpinning of all religious argument. As in: "I'm right, of course, and the fact that you deny that I'm right just shows that you are ignorant."
Looking for right, or wrong, or justification in this event is a waste of time. No one was harmed and no one gained money illegally. Many decades ago somebody drilled a few hundred holes in a mountain and put metal bolts in the holes. Many decades later somebody took the bolts out of the holes.
Every day during those many decades, thousands starved. Or were murdered for political reasons.
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