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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Feb 17, 2013 - 06:19am PT
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Cesare Maestri, the spider of the Dolomites, and the enigma on the Cerro Torre route. Article by Mark Synnott in Climbing Mai 1999.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 17, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
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in Alpinist 39, Luciano Fiorenza discusses the notion that the fair-means ascent was a "variant," not a new route, writing: "Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk simply opened a variation, which does not authorize them to pull the bolts."
The point of Ed's excellent post, as well as some of the thoughts of others, is that climbing is a direct-action game, not a philosophical or ethical concept, meaning any and all "rights" are exclusive to those on the mountainside. We might not agree with what comes done on El Cap or Cerro Torre or fill in the blank, but so long as we're down here, our thoughts count for nothing up high. That's simply the way it is, the beginning and end of the story. Everything else really is - just talk.
JL
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Feb 17, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
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That's just a good philosophical point Largo... nothing more... Some people chop, some chip... it's never above ethical reflection...
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 17, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
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it's never above ethical reflection...
Point taken, but it's deluded to think our reflections will have some influence on the person up high. He/she is outside the arena. The only way to be a true participant in this game is to strap on a harness and pull down. Otherwise we really are just talking . . .
JL
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gonzo chemist
climber
Fort Collins, CO
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Feb 17, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
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Just listened to the Enormocast episodes with Hayden Kennedy.
WELL WORTH the listen! I'm glad he got the chance to explain his and J.K.'s side of the story.
H.K. sounds like a solid dude. Thoughtful, and obviously a damn good climber. Sorry he had to receive so much negative blow-back from chopping the abomination.
Now, who's going to get up there and repeat their route??
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 17, 2013 - 10:51pm PT
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Who is going to repeat the route....exactly the point. Hayden and Jayson didn't put up an "elites only" route and then chop the bolt route leaving an ascent from the Torre Valley side accessible to only world class climbers. Their route is 5:11+ A2... hard enough but not out of the range of most current day Patagonia climbers. Hey, Cerro Torre deserves a climb that stretches people and follows a natural line.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Feb 18, 2013 - 10:19am PT
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Absolutely well said Jim.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 18, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
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Phil.....seems like a lot of climbers are more concerned about end results than process.
People who love the act (process) of climbing are in the game forever.
Those who are trophy hunting quit once the walls on their dens are full.
Trophy hunters will do anything to assure success....hunters regularly shoot mountain lions from point blank range once they have been treed by dogs.
Trophy climbers are no different.
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adikted
Boulder climber
Tahooooeeeee
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Mar 22, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
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The South East Face was repeated this January by Luca and Tadej...super strong climbers from Slovenia.....less than a week after they put up a new route on Fitzroy.....strong show!!
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Feb 17, 2014 - 03:45pm PT
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Has anybody else gotten such an e-mail:
I am contacting you because you made a post on a thread about the Cerro Torre bolting controversy.
When it comes to bolt wars, the rock and the climbing community that cares about it always lose. Stunning peaks and cherished crags are left a scarred mess.
The best cure for this problem is prevention. To help avoid bolt wars from starting, we aim to better understand why people on each side feel the way they do. We are conducting a survey to help answer this question. By completing the 10-minute questionnaire below you can help us take the first step. Participants who complete this questionnaire will be entered to win 1 of 2 $50.00 gift cards to www.Amazon.com.
I ask because I want to know if it's safe to click on the link and answer the survey...
My view: The survey should have been out before. The spinning has continued and it's all starting to degenerate into Kruk/Kennedy applause...
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nopantsben
climber
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Feb 17, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
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it's safe..
it's actually pretty interesting.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Feb 17, 2014 - 03:51pm PT
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Thanks!
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Feb 17, 2014 - 03:53pm PT
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Also got it. But have not looked at it.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 17, 2014 - 04:00pm PT
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Has anybody else gotten such an e-mail:
The email comes, ultimately, from Jeremy Frimer. He's climbed a lot at Squamish, and occasionally posts here on ST. He recently became Dr. Jeremy Frimer PhD, and was immediately punished by being given a job in the Psychology Dept. at the University of Manitoba in Winnipeg. In terms of climbing, this is worse than being sent to Florida or Nebraska. Much worse.
He's now overseeing a grad student who is conducting this research.
I haven't had time to do more than look at the first couple of questions and throw up my hands and say "AArrgghhhh! another stupid survey." But that's just me.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Feb 17, 2014 - 04:08pm PT
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Yeah, I got the survey too.
I thought it was fairly interesting, as it asked us to associate some emotional/moral terms to the argument that I normally don't associate with climbing. I'll be interested to see the results.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Feb 17, 2014 - 04:27pm PT
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Interesting, but disappointing that they didn't have the courage to pose the same questions regarding the actions of Kruk/Kennedy - the bolt choppers. They could have gotten much more out of the survey/research. Bad science...
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 17, 2014 - 04:46pm PT
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Psychologists. Grin.
I like to place bolts because:
a) I see it as a service to the climbing community
b) Real climbing is too difficult for me
c) It gives me a boner
I like to chop bolts because:
a) I see it as a service to the climbing community
b) Putting up my own routes is too difficult for me
c) It gives me a boner
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 17, 2014 - 08:07pm PT
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tried to do it but it took too long on dial up.
I sent a rude email to Frimer and he answered with a polite one. He'd never survive the taco.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Feb 17, 2014 - 10:46pm PT
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Re the e mail re survey.
No comment.
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