Cerro Torre, A Mountain Consecrated - The Resurrection of th

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Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 31, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
Werner wrote

Cesare Maestri didn't care when he went crazy on the Cerro Torre.

K&K is the karmic reaction to Cesare Maestri.

Spinning wheels got go round .....

Werner's right, this is a karma thing.

Just like the colonialism of the past brought the seeds of wars in Vietnam and the Middle East, none of it any good.

Two wrongs (the compressor route and the chopping) not adding up to anything right.

Maestri was pissed at not being believed the first time and so went up with some tweak in his heart and a compressor. The energy of the tweak returns with the chop, which is also tweaked.

Egos bring distortion and destruction. Iconic mountains like Torre and Everest attract the actions of egos.

Ironically, the compressor was sort of a visionary idea, ahead of it's time and now a lot of climbing is established with power drills, like it or not. The actions of visionaries are sometimes vindicated by time, as once hang-dogging was shunned but now embraced, and sometimes repudiated. In this case..... both

Peace

Karl
FeelioBabar

Trad climber
One drink ahead of my past.
Jan 31, 2012 - 06:58pm PT

And wasn't the compressor removed once, and then the gov. ordered it returned to it's original place?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 31, 2012 - 07:03pm PT




Photos by Blitzo, courtesy of MountainProject.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 31, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
Blitzo is such a fine photographer!


Speaking of fine photographs, has anyone noticed the amazing cloud formations on Cerro Torre in the back of ALPINIST 37? Great analogue for the divergent opinions present in this thread.



Hey, now if I travel to the Dolomites am I going to get beat up?
photo not found
Missing photo ID#131251
Johnny K.

climber
Jan 31, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
Piton Ron


Anyway Bird might have considered Maestri a pussy but Jim's views have morphed substantially over the years to say the least.
It would be great if he weighed in now.

Even though he hated the act, the route itself was a crowning achievement for a guy previously known as head kahuna of C4.

And what of the chopping now?

I see.That would be great if we could hear what Bridwell has to say about the current subject.


Philo hahaa Awesome post =D
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Feb 1, 2012 - 12:07am PT
Should we dis Hillary next...
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Feb 1, 2012 - 01:39am PT
BlackSpider Wrote:
As far as the names I mentioned, that's all information I've gathered from reading the various online threads, as well as people's blogs and Facebook/Twitter feeds. You can also add Kelly Cordes and Cedar Wright to the pro-chop list. What's also interesting is to read the discussions on this issue on the British climbing sites. Some of the guys there make the pro-chopping folks here seem downright modest in terms of what they are okay with! (for instance, one British old-timer stated that removal of all the bolts by any means or method of ascent was perfectly justifiable).


If you intend to speak for other climbers, you'll need to strive to be accurate, instead of distorting the facts to suit your agenda. It leads to a general distrust of your statements, neither is the topic served by such wholesale distortions.


Case in point: Cedar Wright.
Cedar wrote a lengthy and eloquent post (which is worth reading: post #480). Here's an excerpt where he sums up his position [emphasis added]:

"My feelings? I have to say I'm a bit saddened that they have chopped the route; largely because I like the guys and feel that this is a very polarizing thing to do. There is no doubt they will be remembered for many years as the "choppers." If I had been in their shoes, I would have enjoyed this more pure ascent and then left the bolts intact for others to clip, or not. I would like to be remembered for my climbs and my character, and not for an incredibly divisive and dare I say zealous, act."

Unless you have another reliable source for Cedar's take on this, by what critical methods do you manage to distill what Cedar wrote down to this glaring misrepresentation: "You can also add Kelly Cordes and Cedar Wright to the pro-chop list"?


BlackSpider, unfortunately you cannot be relied on to paraphrase anyone.
Your credibility is wanting.
From this point forward, you'll need to post actual verbatum citations of climbers' written and spoken commentary (and cite the source) if you intend to refer to them and be taken seriously in the debate.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Feb 1, 2012 - 02:10am PT
Who's the blond tranny in Philo's pics?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 1, 2012 - 02:24am PT
Are you joking Gaslover or blind as a bat?
The cad

climber
Does it matter, really?!?
Feb 1, 2012 - 02:30am PT
Tahoe climber wrote:
I still think it's interesting that the Italians (and other anti-chop posters) don't offer a peep about their opinions of removing the bolts in the context of Maestri starting the job himself.
He removed some of the bolts himself, while on the way down from his second near ascent, did he not?
In the absence of any statement from him thus far, I find his action very telling - practically an open invitation to anyone to finish the job, and representing a coming back to sanity after a brief sojourn. I think he realized that it was a mess and a mistake, and began trying to fix it, but didn't have the time, energy or motivation to fix it entirely.

Come on, this issue has already been discussed at least one hundred times.

From Alpinist.com:
Now, instead of letting his [Maestri's] partners join him at the high point, he [Maestri] had a sudden impulse. "[A] devilish plan comes into my mind: I'll take out all the bolts and leave the climb as clean as we found it. I'll break them all, so that whoever tries to repeat our route won't even be able to benefit from the holes we've drilled." On rappel, Maestri chopped some twenty of his bolts; he disabled the compressor, and "toss[ed] down the face anything that might be helpful to others: pitons, carabiners, ropes."

Maestri's chopping of his own route was yet another "phuk u" to the climbing community who didn't believe to his '59 ascent.
How many times shall we repeat this?
Is it so hard to get it?

What if Maestri had chopped the whole route?
Very simple: we wouldn't be here endlessly ranting.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 1, 2012 - 02:33am PT
He sounds like a habitual litterbug.
enzolino

climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
Feb 1, 2012 - 04:38am PT
Only Kruk is allowed ... he is the foreigner ... but I'm sure there are plenty of other mountain talebans who would volunteer to join him!!!

:-)))
enzolino

climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
Feb 1, 2012 - 04:52am PT
On 16 January 2012, American Hayden Kennedy and Canadian Jason Kruk made a self-defined "fair-means"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerro_Torre
LOL
Just a question ... how many "self-defined" definitions of "fair means" exist?

I would list some reference "fair means" styles.
Free solo: climbing with no rope and no protections.
Freeclimbing: using protection just for security and not for progression.
Alpine Style: climbing a mountain or a route in one push without using fixed ropes.
Boltless: climbing a route without using the bolts, neither for protection or for progression.

Further suggestions?
Should we add the KKK definition?
KKK: Fair means does not mean no bolts. Reasonable use of bolts has been a long-accepted practice in this mountain range.
mika

Big Wall climber
Zurich, switzerland
Feb 1, 2012 - 05:16am PT
If any person has the right to talk about fair means on Torre it is David Lama with his fantastic free climb. After this action the climb of the KKK became just another aid climb of Torre.
uli__

climber
Milan, Italy
Feb 1, 2012 - 05:22am PT
is it certified(1) that he didn't put his pinkies in the bolt holes?

(1) it seems that on this particular mountain lack of contrary evidence is not enough to trust alpinist's word as the '59 "presumed" ascent testmony
enzolino

climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
Feb 1, 2012 - 05:26am PT
If any person has the right to talk about fair means on Torre it is David Lama with his fantastic free climb. After this action the climb of the KKK became just another aid climb of Torre.
I absolutely agree ... and it's a pity that his achievement was overshadowed by the KKK action ...
Lama accomplishment is amazing ...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 1, 2012 - 05:44am PT
I absolutely agree ... and it's a pity that his achievement was overshadowed by the KKK action ...Lama accomplishment is amazing ...

Lama's achievement, like Maestri, is overshadowed only by his own previous [bad] choices on the route.
enzolino

climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
Feb 1, 2012 - 06:50am PT
Lama's achievement, like Maestri, is overshadowed only by his own previous [bad] choices on the route.
Well ... at least Lama accepted criticism
http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web10x/newswire-lama-speaks-compressor
I have without a doubt accepted the consequences from my critics and agreed with Red Bull that for the next attempt on this project other tactics will be used, and no additional bolts will be placed for the production. This decision will have consequences on the quality of the production, but I am happy that Red Bull is with me in this resolution. If it turns out that the film project is no longer possible, and the production abandoned, I will not change my plan—to attempt to free Cerro Torre
accordingly adjusted his choice and accomplished his outstanding goal.
I hope KKK would do the same ...
nopantsben

climber
Feb 1, 2012 - 07:40am PT
this entire thread just puts climbing and its community into a bad light.
americans vs. italians/swiss is what it looks like here . of course that's not even the case, but the dumb arguing is shameful.

it's sad that some climber compares the bolts on the the Torre to the Berlin Wall, and it even gets rewritten by KK and then R&I and Alpinst cite that bullsh#t. It makes climbers look like stupid idiots!
enzolino

climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
Feb 1, 2012 - 08:23am PT
this entire thread just puts climbing and its community into a bad light.
americans vs. italians/swiss is what it looks like here . of course that's not even the case, but the dumb arguing is shameful.

it's sad that some climber compares the bolts on the the Torre to the Berlin Wall, and it even gets rewritten by KK and then R&I and Alpinst cite that bullsh#t. It makes climbers look like stupid idiots!
Well ... if you look at any human issue from the perspective of eternity and the infinity of the universe, everything would look like silly ...

Although alpinism is a niche activity, nevertheless is our game. And we are the players. And in this game we play to set up rules, to fight for them, to establish the value of achievement, to break new frontiers, etc ...
So, after all is just a game ... and I'm sure that with many people of the forum - except philo (he is too busy with blonde girls) - we would peacefully laugh and talk in front of a drink ...

By the way ... Italians and Swiss are definetively better than americans ... :-)
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