Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
Coz, in 1976 I climbed the Maestri/Egger line to the Col of Conquest with John Bragg and Jay Wilson on our way to the first ascent of Torre Egger. I was a supporter of Maestri at that time. Suffice to say that based on what I saw, and didn't see, I came to the conclusion that Maestri and Egger did not even get to the Col of Conquest. Proof......circumstantial, but probably strong enough to get a conviction from the OJ Simpson jury.
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
Coz, lots of details here:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/825943/Cerro-Torre-the-lie-and-the-desecration
Edit: I just reread the entire thread linked above, and think these additional posts are worth sharing here:
Jeff, you have a point about icing, that wouldn't explain the complete absence of rap anchors and the false description of the climbing. G. Davis, concerning your point about desecration and the comparison with the Nose. El Cap is the premiere wall climbing venue on the planet but it lacks something a mountain like Cerro Torre has- ACCESSIBILITY. You can hike to the top of El Ca: hell, Dick Cheney, if he adjusted his pace maker, could do it. To me that factor, accessibility, is what makes a mountain magical. To have pieces of real estate, on this crowded planet, that are extremely difficult to attain fires up my imagination. Its a primitive thing, I get a similar feeling when I'm in an area inhabited by wolves. Using whatever technology it takes to attain these summits seems unfitting. I only wish that there was a mountain (say Torre Egger on top of K2) whose summit would never see a human footprint.
I have never advocated chopping the Compressor Route- I just mourn the fact that it is there.
-and...
Double D, I have been climbing in Patagonia for 35 years. I have seen possibly one occasion when icing (might) allow for an ascent to the col- and that would be unlikely. I have never seen an instance where the icing was substantial enough for ice bollards. Then, there is the problem of Maestri's erroneous description of the climbing. Keep in mind that we are talking about the possibility of Maestri getting to the Col of Conquest. There is also that small issue of getting from the col to the summit- see Rolo Garibotti. By the way, Maestri said that he and Egger found a 60 degree ice passage from the col to the summit. Subsequent exploration of CT has shown that such a passage does not exist.
-and
I have a photo of Toni Egger low on the route with the upper part of the climb to the col showing- it looks drier than when we did it. In my many trips to Patagonia I have never seen ice on the route sufficient for climbing. Even if that happened, there would never be enough ice for V-Threads- where are the rap anchors? Maestris's description of the traverse into the Col of Conquest is completely wrong ice or no ice. Oh! and where did Maestri's 60 degree ice route fron the Col to the summit go to? There is no such thing as 60 degree anything on that piece of mountain real estate.
I know that climbers always want to believe their peers, but this guy is a scoundrel and needs to be outed.
|
|
Sakshama
Trad climber
NY, MAcedonia
|
|
Great theme. I would not like to be a climber heading towards the route and hear that the bolts are taken away. You guys are excellent climbers but you put the route off limits to so many people dreaming going there and climbing it. I'm pro bolts if I may. If only top one percent can climb something that doesn't mean nobody else should. I like to see bolts on every major route in the world. Bring the climbing to the masses. It is a convenience like roads, airports and infrastructure. If somebody is aggravated by some bolts on a Patagonian rock why he is not aggravated by the road he takes everyday to work which after all it is not the way God intended. Tear everything down attitude will bring us back to the stone age.
|
|
bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
|
|
So, I have a question for all those who use the photo shown below to demonstrate what an abomination the Compressor Route is. Do you know if K&K removed these specific bolts?
The point I am trying to make is that in only removing 125 or so of the 450 total bolts, K&K did a pretty poor job of 'erasing' the route. OK, they are just kids and they admitted that they made the decision to chop the route when they were on the summit, but why are a number of you applauding a job that is, at best, 1/3 complete? And, we don't know if they removed the bolts that some of you hold forth as an example of what a travesty the Compressor Route is/was.
I could see K&K climbing the Compressor Route on the way up and deciding what has to be chopped and what should stay when they descend, but doing a climb that didn't use any of Maestri's bolts on the way up and then apparently randomly chopping bolts on the way down smacks of the same style, AKA 'I am going to do what I want and everyone else be damned', as that attributed to Maestri by his detractors. Pretty hypocritical from where I am standing.
I see the exact same act, just a different set of characters and 40 years apart.
|
|
Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
|
|
I see the exact same act, just a different set of characters and 40 years apart.
Dude, give 'em some credit. They didn't use a gas-powered compressor to remove the bolts, so that's an improvement in style.
|
|
SicMic
climber
across the street from Marshall, CO
|
|
( #1640 for easy reference ) Actions which direcly affect others in the climbing community are properly questions of ethics. The primary ethical consideration involves leaving a route unchanged so others may enjoy, as nearly as possible, the creation of those who made the first ascent. Through the years there has been controversy over questions of placing and removing bolts, as well as other questions. Those removing bolts and holds often think everyone should do a route in the best possible style or not at all. This is extreme. Climbing in good style is admirable, but must everyone be forced to do it? A climb is a creation of the men who did the first ascent. To make it more difficult by chopping bolts is to insult those who put it up and to deprive others the joy of repeating the route as the first party did it. If we do not disturb the route done in a shoddy manner (eg the placements of unnecessary bolts), it will do no harm and may provide a good climb for the less capable. And as for the route done in elegant fashion- let it remain as a pinnacle of achievement to which we may aspire. The above definition of climbing ethics has the advantage of avoiding the chancy area of pre-judging the way a first ascent SHOULD be done. This is left entirely to the individual and becomes a question not of ethics but of style.
These sage words by Royal Robbins will be recognized from Basic Rockcraft, written in 1971, before some of the antagonists were born. But the sentiment of respecting the 'first ascent principle' is as timely in 2012 as it was under the masters' pen 40 years ago. If it's true on sport crags and Yosemite walls, it must be true all over the world. That's how style considerations must be judged and viewed. Destroy 'em all, or leave 'em all be. It's the arrogance of argument as to what is worthy that ruins the discussion. Whether in the Dolomites, Yosemite, Gunks, Everest, or some wind-blown spire, it seems this thread has forced us to look into that smelly can of worms to decide what passes muster. We are not to be envied. Nor will we necessarily agree.
To add to the absurdity, someone asked me if I planned to chop the bolts I'd placed on a face climb in Colorado after establishing the first ascent as a free solo. The bolts went a year later and haven't caused me ethical consternation. Due to minimal protection this stretch of rock wouldn't have been enjoyed by other climbers the past dozen years without the bolts, and my desire was for other climbers to be able to safely ascend it. Will I now have to become a zealot against my own consideration, remove the bolts and demand that the community sack up for a hundred foot runout after I remove them? Or can the bolts stay until I again solo the route at some later time and see the blasphemy of my retro bolting ways? Tough call. My solo of a route is not necessarily any more glorious than that of a roped team. Just different. It ain't Patagonia, but it's the same old story. I'd just expect an answer that addresses both questions. Bolts bad, pitons bad, cams bad, chocks and hexes bad, chalk and climbing shoes bad; except when they're all good for our own purposes. It seems like we pick our fight on the rock, with each of us taking what we're most comfortable with. That makes it tough to judge and unravel the true value of the Compressor from 40 years, hundreds of opinions, and thousands of miles.
|
|
uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
|
|
I'm an honest guy so I assume people aren't lying, how about you?
great point coz!
|
|
Akuram
climber
Germany
|
|
I am no expert, just someone who likes to read about climbing mountains that other people have done.
I am not able to do this myself, even if I wanted to or had the possibility.
I came across this argument through an article in a German newspaper and was interested, what experts/climbers think about the decission of the two guys to remove the bolts.
I am somewhat amazed, that a lot of you approve of their actions as I believe the compressor route has been widely accepted as a "historical route" nowadays, even if one does not agree with the way it was established.
The reasoning I read most is that the route now is purer again and how it should be and so on.
I wonder if these two guys would also remove the chinese ladder at the second step on Mt.Everest, because it deprives the climber of a "pure" route to the top?
|
|
philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
|
|
It is my opinion that the Chinese ladder should be removed.
But that would negatively impact the commercial cash cow that is Everest.
|
|
BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
|
|
Donini has spoken what most of us have felt for decades.
|
|
enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
|
|
If someone would have said that the Compressor route is too domesticated in relationship to modern climbing standards, I could have agreed to chop some or many bolts.
If some would have said that the Compressor route's bolts are an atrocity, an act of vandalism and that the bolts were Maestri's insanity which stole the future to younger generations. I this case I would think that, in front of me, I have an ignorant fanatic without lack of respect for previous achievements and I would strongly disagree with the chopping.
I remember how nice it was to climb on many clean cracks on the Nose. It was told me that in the past there were more pitons and I think their removal was a positive choice, which did not disrespect anybody.
The last summer I climbed the Cassin route on Badile. Ahead of us there was a seventy years old guy with the guide. He told me that he climbed the route in 1970, but that in those times was much easier. And it was much easier not because he was younger, but because there were more pitons to pull. And I was happy that we could climb more clean cracks, using modern devices.
|
|
mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
|
I'm pro bolts if I may. If only top one percent can climb something that doesn't mean nobody else should.
That is what it means and that is the way it is.
|
|
Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
|
|
Just woke up this morning. Still really no rain here this year, but cold ... I put on my tinfoil hat, rearranged my newspaper blanket and realized, "Wasn't Donini down there "fishing" when this whole thing went down?".
Just sayin'.
There has been quite a LOT of uneccessary bolting in the massif aside from the CR. Bolts at belays where they are not needed, bolts next to cracks etc. The stunning beauty of the mountains and the purity of the water and the air make Patagonia a place like no other. Maybe we should be more respectful when we climb these sublime peaks.
(smells like classical psy ops stuff to me.)
Carry (that torch) on ...
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
HARD-MAN says: "A true hard man needs no botls."
A true hard man can spell to make his point.
A true hard man is made up of nuts and bolts and eats poseurs .....
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
In my next life, I may go up there with genetically modified tendons and muscles and cruise the thing in pleasant weather with no ice anywhere and wonder what weaklings the previous generation was
:-)
|
|
SicMic
climber
across the street from Marshall, CO
|
|
Update: The bolters and the choppers face off. Agreement imminent.
|
|
Akuram
climber
Germany
|
|
akurum, thanks for chiming in .... maybe we can squeeze another forty years out of this!
Look at it this way. comparing the trade routes on Everest with anything on Cerro Torre is a bit like comparing Deep water sailing with white water kayaking. The chinese ladder solves an annoying bit of real climbing in the middle of a ferociously long and oxygen starved hike while the bolt ladder is akin to building a bridge across all the bits that really matter.
I don't think there are very many who really think the bolts were ever appropriate or justified.
Sorry, again, I am no expert! I might make myself a laughing stock by entering this discussion, but then just ignore me. I was just making a comparison between known aids on mountains.
So you differentiate between necessary and not so necessary?
Who decides what is necessary? By what standards? Two young guys?
Are climbers not always using aids in some kind of form or shape? What would you say to the 80 year old climber that frowns at your NASA-insulated jackets and hardcover boots and all the other up-to-date gear, because it wasn't around 60 years ago.
It is my feeling that something that can only be achieved by a few people, is something extra-ordinary!
Now, should this made possible for a wider range of people by using aids? Is that desirable? The absolute pros would most likely deny that question, but some climbers that are not far off the top pros, would also like to stand at the top of this mountain, may disagree. They also would like to achieve this feat, that until now only the best 1% could have done.
But actually that is not the question here, is it?
The bolts were there and it is not a debate about if they should bolt that route or not, it is a debate about who gave the two young climbers the right to decide for many and remove the bolts, that have been there for decades?
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
So as Jason is Canadian, and Chris Geisler is Canadian and almost climbed it with Jason last year, and Hayden is maybe sort of a bit Canadian, will it be renamed the Canadian route?
|
|
Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
|
|
It will necessarily be "The Chopper route". "The Compressor route" and "The Chopper route". Or "The Canadian Chopper route".
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
If you have seen Cumbre, then "Chopper" seems appropriate.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!