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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Jan 25, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
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Totally irelevant, I know...
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Jan 25, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
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Yeah! Sweet pics. Now we're gettin somewhere.
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rampik
Social climber
the alps
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Jan 25, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
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nice pics on a via ferrata, like in dolomiti
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bmacd
Mountain climber
100% Canadian
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Jan 25, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
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Lovegasoline - you mean of course, after Jason and Hayden free climb the north face of the North Twin this spring ? 13 hours on Cerro Torre is a romp in the park for these 2 super alpinists, compared to the 3 days they will likely need on their return to North Twin.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 25, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
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Damn John those pics were as refreshing as a slideshow! I guess I knew you'd climbed Cerro Torre, but had completely spaced that out.
But I respect your opinion too bvb.
Just a throwaway comment Dingus. If that thing were sitting in a museum it'd lose the mythic, spectral power in has in those photos, hanging there like a lost testament to Man's folly in the Mountains.
EDIT: A thought just occured to me (it happens sometimes.) How would people feel about all those bolts if they'd been drilled by hand? If the compressor were removed from the equation? Would they have still been such low-hanging fruit?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Jan 25, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
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Cheers, Bob.
That compressor is actually a pain in the butt--you have to climb over it, and it catches all your ropes and slings, and turns the whole belay into a clusterf*#k. When we were there it was locked in with swaged cables--this was in 1993 and after it had been removed, brought to the ground (by helicopter) and replaced by a film crew.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 25, 2012 - 05:51pm PT
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Great pics Deuce4.
Would you elaborate on this...
this was in 1993 and after it had been removed, brought to the ground (by helicopter) and replaced by a film crew.
I remember hearing some rumor of this.
Has Maeestri's Compressor all ready been on the ground?
Or is it alpine myth?
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Conrad
climber
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Jan 25, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
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Duece and I climbed the route in the summer 93/94. It was an enjoyable day out with fine weather. While we climbed to the ice cap we didn't find a reasonable way to surmount the mushroom. It fell off later in the season and is a unique bit of ice that changes year to year.
Humans are the dominant species on this planet. Our control of the natural environment, both intentional (Hoover Dam) and unintentional (Co2 emissions), is our signature. By extension we have brought this ethos into the mountains. The Cable Route, Chain Reaction, the ladders and ropes on Everest, aircraft support are but a few examples of how we use machinery to climb peaks. I'm guilty of all of this stuff - I justify it selfishly as being fun and having some over arching value to society. It doesn't. We are out having fun and playing a grand game of fort. (Forts are little stick huts children make when they are about 10 years old. Expeditions are an extension of youth playing fort.)
In 2007 our climbing team pulled the aluminium ladder on the Second Step of the NE Ridge of Chomolungma. While we pulled off the first free ascent, placing our own gear and belaying, we were required to reinstall the ladder by the Chinese Mountaineering Association. The ladder is part of the 1975 ascent and has significant historic and economic value to the host country. It would have been cool to take the ladder down and require all subsequent climbers to haul up a #4 cam, a 2 x 4 block to stack it with and a few knife blades. Mandatory free climbing. It would have been a statement. Alas the ladder was set back into place and we continued on our way.
Taking down dams is common practice. Once they have served their useful life and we begin to understand their impact on the greater environment it makes sense. Times change, technology adapts and we progress as a species. The pulling of Maestri's bolts is akin to taking out dams. We have moved on from this style of climbing and can accomplish greater climbs with less equipment. This is the direction climbing is going towards. Removing this "dam" on the Torre is a step in this direction.
Hayden and Jason have given the mountain some of it's strength back, made it a bit more of a challenge and in the process stirred the hornet's nest. The historical route is no longer. We lost that. Cerro Torre is stronger. This is a good progression.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Jan 25, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
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Yep, the compressor has already been moved around. I think it was put back after pressure from the locals because of similar historical arguments.
The film history of Cerro Torre would be interesting.
Herzog's film, Scream of Stone, is hands down the best climbing film ever.
I don't know many details of the film that removed the compressor (or why), helicoptered to the summit, and supposedly chain-sawed a cave on top which has been rumoured to have collapsed the snow bridge to the summit mushroom (and prevented many parties from attaining the "true" summit), but I believe it was a separate film from Herzog's, several years later.
Until recently, I wasn't aware that Leo Dickenson produced a film on Cerro Torre, but would like to see it.
What other films took place on this ferocious peak?
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Conrad
climber
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Jan 25, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
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Thanks for the fine pics John. You posted while I was typing. Ermanno - playing fort. Classic.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Jan 25, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
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Nice post, Conrad. Twas a fine day of climbing (after many weeks of going nuts in the huts!). The weather was our Christmas present (or was it Boxing Day), I recall.
cheers!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 25, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
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If the route was an abomination from the get go, had no ethical justification for existing, if it disfigured and polluted the glorious Cerro Torre, then where was the honor and moral courage of all the locals (i.e., lovers of Cerro Torre) over the past 40 years?
Good question. But do you really have any doubts that it was anything but what you describe, particularly given the photos?
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eagle
Trad climber
new paltz, ny
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Jan 25, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
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what a couple of pricks for chopping the bolts. i don't care how fast or what style they climbed the route in, now they will probably sell them on ebay and cash in. who do they think they are...a couple of superheros? maybe i'll start climbing again and replace them with 3"x1/2 shiny new rawls and then spray paint them the color of the rock. patagonia here i come.
oh yeah don't worry, i'll use the same holes
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 25, 2012 - 07:23pm PT
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sorry again for my bad English
Your English is just fine. Our Italian and Spanish, on the other hand, mostly ain't so hot.
Conrad, John: Thanks for the photos and posts.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jan 25, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
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If you so strongly advocated chopping the Compressor Route why didn't you chop this route at some point in the past 40 years? Why now the chopping, 40 years later?
-----
Because 40, 30, 20, and so forth years ago, nobody had established a route around all those bolts. The bolt removal followed from the "Fair Means" ascent, which rendered the CM bolt ladder needles - at lease in the eyes of Kennedy and Kruk, who never called me to ask if it was okay. Did they call you? If you come to understand (not necessarily agreeing) why nobody asked for our OK - without jumping to evaluations and demonic berating - you will see things clearly.
JL
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 25, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
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Deucy - can you please post some captions to your photos? Otherwise we don't know who and where and what.
Anders - YES! Post up all of those Mountain Mag articles as we would all love to read them. Please post in a high enough resolution so that they are easily readable. [compare to Steve Grossman's scans, which are a bit too low res]
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KDD
climber
bishop
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Jan 25, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
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i wish the boys would have picked a dicey weather window and climbed it with retro gear and equipment while placing new bolts on lead with a hand drill sight unseen
thats it
kevin daniels
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mr-p
Trad climber
Invisible City
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Jan 25, 2012 - 11:31pm PT
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How is that any climber, if we take the word to imply love and respect for the mountains, can reconcile and justify a compressor suspended by cables, in one of the most remote and beautiful ranges on earth, to be "history that needs to be preserved" ?
All the arguments about choice, locals making decisions, respect for the first climbers, etc hide behind the moral relativism typical of those who are not directly affected by something, never having to draw a line between right and wrong.
Jason and Hayden had the balls to do more than an outstanding climb: they took a stand to undo some of the harm inflicted by an egotistical maniac, in search of personal glory. Maestri perpetrated one of the biggest atrocities in the history of climbing. Finally, some vindication.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 26, 2012 - 01:18am PT
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Great post Drugo!
Great post Bruce!
You got the point ... many of climbers (especially italians) are not pissed by the chopping action itself, but by the lack of respect towards our predecessors, towards climbing history and against locals' opinions ...
I've read that about 40 people who wanted to "lynch" K&K ... who are the real locals and the real foreigners?
How can K&K pretend to have the right to climb Cerro Torre and, on the summit, arbitrarily decide to chop the bolts?
Rolando Garibotti always preached to chop the bolts. He is a local. So, why he didn't do it himself?
Ignorance cannot be blamed, until when it is used to diffamate and vilify people.
And when I read this article
http://www.pataclimb.com/knowledge/articles/CTbolts.html
“Cesare Maestri drilled the many long bolt ladders not to connect natural features but to avoid them, tackling blank rock that he could overcome at a 15-bolt-per-hour pace with his compressor and drill, altering Cerro Torre’s natural challenges in a way unseen on any other mountain of such magnificence. Most of the 400 bolts he placed are unnecessary by anybody’s standards, even those from back in 1970 when he placed them.” I realize how much ignorance there is on this issue.
I wonder what the author of this article was thinking when he mentioned the „standards of the time“.
All these routes listed below were climbed in Maestri's time and are located in Dolomite … a UNESCO’s heritage … and the number of bolts, and the length of the routes show that, in those time, to place many bolts was not such a big issue in Dolomite.
1959: Torre Trieste, South Face, Ignazio Piussi, Giorgio Radaelli, 800 m, 330 pitons, 90 bolts, 45 wooden wedges
1960: Roda di Vael (Toni Egger route), Cesare Maestri, Claudio Baldessari, 400 m, 400 pitons, 20 bolts,
1966: Taè, South face, Ivano Dibona, Diego Valleferro, Luciano Da Pozzo, 400 m, 170 pitons, 180 bolts
1966: Tofana di Mezzo, East face, Ivano Dibona, Luciano Da Pozzo, Diego Valleferro, 400 m, 180 pitons, 70 bolts
1968: Punta Gíovannina (Tofane), South West face, Ivano Dibona, Diego Zandonel, 320 m, 150 pitons, more than 100 bolts
Now, were all these climbers insane?
Sometimes, to sublimate style and ethics, human beings have to explore experiences that in future can have lower value. But this is a necessary part of climbing process and evolution, from which everybody learns.
All the routes listed above and many others are parts of Dolomite … a UNESCO’s heritage … and nobody ever thought to remove the bolts because they are “insane” … on the contrary the aid routes became an opportunity for young generations to apply the “free climbing” paradigm …
http://www.up-climbing.com/en/contributions/mountaineering/dolomites--freeing-aid-routes
So … Silvo Karo can relax …
… the future is not compromised. And David Lama (after the admitted mistakes), Lynn Hill, Todd Skinner, Alex Huber, Bubu Bole, etc demostrated that new generations can face new challenges coming from the past, without necessarily destroying and vilifying climbing history, like, on the contrary, Rolando Garibotti, Kennedy and Kruk did.
What's more funny of this issue is that some people still believe in Maestri’s insanity ...
In truth … I wonder if … insanity is just in the eyes of the beholder …
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Cesare Maestri (enzolino already explained) was a man who sought fame and glory and he did the kind of climbing routes at that historical moment seemed the future; the "direttissime" and "super-direttissime", piton after piton, bolt after bolt.
Let us know!