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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 17, 2011 - 09:19pm PT
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In the process of visiting an old friend yesterday, Skip Allan, and the construction of his new catamaran project we got into a discussion of old climbing gear. You know, when you are around sailors you talk climbing and conversely when around climbers, often sailing will come up.
Well, Skip is a world class sailor but his climbing background is rather bleak. A Stanford alumni he had the advantage of climbing with schoolmate Chuck Kroger in the early days in the Valley. On an ascent of the Higher Spire, sometime during the late 60s or early 70s, he had the misfortune of clipping into an old pin and the dubious luck soon thereafter of falling. He thinks it was on one of the lower pitches. But then again he can't remember who he climbed it with or what year. Often the case with all of us looking back so many years.
During our discussion he wandered over to his tool chest and among all the old broken chisels, screwdrivers and other vintage paraphernalia he produced this piton. I am curious if this could be one of the original pins placed on the first ascent in 1934? I believe most of the gear was of Sporthaus Schuster origin. Stubai, Cassin,Schuster, Holubar, Army?
Big eye, small head, soft metal, not galvanized and no markings visible. Sound like someone you know?
Any ideas?
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 17, 2011 - 10:11pm PT
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Guido! I am not close to being an authority on pre-1970 pitons, but----that does look a lot like one of the classic Sierra Club Knifeblades.
Chuck Wilts shared the "how-to:" for those with a home machine-shop in the Sierra Club Classic "Belaying the Leader."
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 17, 2011 - 10:14pm PT
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It's a piece of metal with a hole in it and rust all over it.
Throw it in the dumpster ......
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 17, 2011 - 10:25pm PT
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WOW! I just found this cool website:
dumpsterdiving.com registered to a WBraun at Curmudgeon Inc. lol
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 17, 2011 - 10:25pm PT
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Werner:
If you don't choose to be incinerated: future collectors will be clucking over “highly collectable Werner-bones.
Collectors will collect, and cluck about their finds.
It’s Human nature.
Most-Everyone has to have a hobby.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Dec 17, 2011 - 10:32pm PT
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Looks like an old army issue to me.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 18, 2011 - 07:38am PT
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It looks like some old army pitons I'd seen, but I have no info on pre- WWII pins, so it could be older. I don't think it's an old knifeblade. I have a couple of old, home-made (not by me) knifeblades that look like they were made according to Wilts's specs, and they're much shorter and thinner.
John
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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Dec 18, 2011 - 11:22am PT
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Guido:
If I was to guess, I would say that piton was from Europe. I used to have a large collection of soft metal pins from the Alps, and that one sure looks familiar. I gave that rack of pins away. Who would of thought that old soft iron pins would ever be of value someday?
Seems like one of the older climbers should recognize it, if their memory still works!
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John Morton
climber
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Dec 18, 2011 - 11:35am PT
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Funny, when I first went to buy pitons there were "verticals", "horizontals" and "angles". I bought some verticals, but soon Chouinard designed his way around the vertical/horizontal thing with his combined Lost Arrow model. Shortly there was no soft iron at all in Yosemite.
Forged tool steel was another matter. Bruce Cook and especially John Salathe made some in classic shapes, and of course knifeblades are impossible in mild steel.
The peg in the photo is certainly not a knifeblade. My European pitons all had stamped markings, so if there are none it would suggest Army issue. So maybe not from the FA - did the US Army show any interest in rock climbing before the war?
John
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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Dec 18, 2011 - 12:09pm PT
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John:
That is a very interesting historical question: when did the US military first become involved in the mountain sports?
Was the 10th Mountain Division the first time technical climbing and skiing were thought of as tactics?
Back to the piton. Could that have been made by one of the early USA piton makers?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Dec 18, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
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True story: I know someone who outbid me for a Werner Braun stamped Friend ..or 2....collectors items. So as a minimum, don't do what he says but do as he does: follow Werners lead and put that old gear on the internetz!
Better option, send it to Ken Yeager with the story and a $100 bill (or without) to help the Yos museum. I've done that one and it's the most satisfying.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Dec 18, 2011 - 01:12pm PT
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When I saw your photo's of the pin, I thought...hmmm...that looks kinda familiar. A friend of mine gave me a couple of pitons he said were Jules Eichorn's.
So, I googled. From wiki:
"In 1934, Eichorn, Robinson and Dick Leonard of the Cragmont Climbing Club assembled the most advanced set of climbing gear then in use in North America, much of which they had obtained from Germany, and successfully climbed Higher Cathedral Spire in Yosemite Valley.[11] This was the first major technical ascent in the valley that later became a mecca of rock climbing.[12] This was the first climb in California to utilize pitons. Writing about this climb, Bestor Robinson described Eichorn's "remarkable sense of balance and ability to stick to next to nothing." [13]"
13: Robinson, Bestor (1973 (republished 1995)). "The First Ascent of the Higher Cathedral Spire". In Galen Rowell. The Vertical World of Yosemite. Berkeley, CA: Wilderness Press. pp. 11. ISBN 911824-87-1.
I'll have to dig up those pins and post a photo.
Interesting...
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Dec 18, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
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dumpsterdiving.com registered to a WBraun at Curmudgeon Inc. lol
BWA HA HA hahahaaaa!!!
Guido for the win once again. My new phrase: Dude, you've been Guidoed!
Beautiful pin by the way.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 18, 2011 - 02:27pm PT
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Here is a photo of a newer military style piton given to me by RDB, and a nicely-rusted one: I found on a 1940's Fred Becky route in the Sawtooths (I am not asserting it dates to Fred though).
The newer unused one is 4" long, the older one is 4 1/4" long and both appear to be a little shorter than the one Guido posted.
It appears that design was standard for many a year. The pitons are narrower, longer, & just slightly (3/16" vs 1/8") thicker at the eye, than the Chuck Wilts Sierra Club Knifeblade.
Question? I always thought of this design as a "knifeblade?" Is it too thick, and thus a "horizontal?"
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John Morton
climber
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Dec 18, 2011 - 05:48pm PT
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True story: I know someone who outbid me for a Werner Braun stamped Friend ..or 2....collectors items. So as a minimum, don't do what he says but do as he does: follow Werners lead and put that old gear on the internetz!
Better option, send it to Ken Yeager with the story and a $100 bill (or without) to help the Yos museum. I've done that one and it's the most satisfying.
Does Ken really have room to collect the old junk? I made a set of Friends about 20 yrs. ago, but eventually got bothered by the dubious looks from partners, and let them provide the cams. The museum is welcome to them, but then I'm not Werner Braun.
Question? I always thought of this design as a "knifeblade?" Is it too thick, and thus a "horizontal?"
Not a knifeblade, look at the Wilts drawing. The knifeblade tapers from .037" to .020" - very thin, which requires forged tool steel. RURPs need that too. Vertical and horizontal types were named for the cracks where they were used, but that all went away with the Lost Arrow. It all looks different in limestone, where they mash any old thing into those wavy cracks and leave them there until they rust away. Or at least they used to ...
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 18, 2011 - 07:27pm PT
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Is it too thick, and thus a "horizontal?"
Way too thick. The knife blade was an evolutionary step in piton development. This thing looks like a Sportshaus Schuster or maybe US Army issue. Possibly a Holubar if it was embossed.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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Dec 18, 2011 - 08:18pm PT
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All three of the pitons pictured above are "vertical" type pitons, for use in vertical cracks.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 18, 2011 - 08:26pm PT
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Sporthaus had a large embossment, Holubar a little smaller and the tip looks too narrow for an Army one?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 18, 2011 - 08:34pm PT
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I used to have one that looked a lot like the third photo down. I retrieved it from a Needles (Black Hills) climb back in the 1950s. It was pitted more than this one and I assumed it was placed by a climber there in the 1930s, perhaps. Wiessner or one of his companions, maybe. It disappeared from my collection some time ago.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2011 - 09:14pm PT
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Some old catalogs shots from the 60s and the "diverse" selection we had:
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 25, 2011 - 03:04pm PT
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Any more ideas on this pin?
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Dec 25, 2011 - 03:11pm PT
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Merry Christmas Guido.Ken
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 25, 2011 - 09:04pm PT
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Merry Christmas to you Ken.
Those Germans don't mess around with their stamps! SS
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R.B.
Trad climber
47N 122W
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Dec 25, 2011 - 09:46pm PT
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The one I have almost just like it is stamped "Austria"; except is has a silver finish to it.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 27, 2011 - 01:04pm PT
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Dam Fritz-what a coincidence, just the other morning I noticed I had run out of dental floss.
I'm a wondering if this is a Cassin, pre-galvinized era? if such an era existed?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Dec 27, 2011 - 01:13pm PT
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LOLOLOL hahaha!!!! Guido!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Still scratching my head over this one. The anvil and eye finishing are about the only thing to assess on a vertical piton
My Austrialpin hardware is buried but that is my best guess. A tiny MADE IN AUSTRIA is all you will find and not even that, often enough.
Cassin usually carried a distinctive stamp but not very early on. Same goes for the plating on Cassin hardware.
Boche might have something similar in his stash...
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1104287&tn=60
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2012 - 11:38pm PT
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Good call Steve and other observant souls.
Hennek is visiting and we took said pin outside in the sun and with the combined eyesight of 132 years we were able to just see the Austria stamp. Reinforced with a giant magnifying glass and sight enhancement paraphernalia and voila the puzzle solved.
I guess the true value of this pin and its sentimental and nostalgic virtue is associated with an early ascent the Higher Spire.
It would be interesting to know more about the era in which these pins were first introduced to American climbing.
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bookie
climber
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When you have an old piton with writing that you can't read, use some white grease pencil or chalk, rub it into the letters and blow/wipe away the rest, maybe you can read it then. I have a box of old pitons just like this one, I think I'll do that sometime.
In 1972 I was working at Kelty Pack in Glendale California and we did a lot of business with the US Army, selling them pitons. I think we were selling to some units in California. We also sold gear to the Air Force Mt Rescue groups. They sent us a purchase order with technical specifications for all sorts of pitons that matched up to old soft iron piton dimensions, and old army pitons, which I didn't know anything about at the time.
So we worked with one of the European gear importers, now it's called Liberty, may have been owned by Sport Chalet. We ordered 500 or so pins from Austria and we eventually got them and sold them to the Army. And I remember they actually paid for them! Maybe a buck each. (We also shipped 100 Kelty Packs to Nepal for the Peace Corps.)
Why they didn't buy Chouinard pitons, or use their own, I had no idea, and I didn't think to ask them. That was just about the time nuts became available, but hey, the Army changes slowly. In fact, I had just gotten out of the Army reserves in 1971, and we still had Garands and BARs.
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bookie
climber
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Identifying old gear is getting harder and harder as the old timers are passing. Is anybody threatening or promising to write a book about old gear, in detail? I know some people have done a lot of research and collecting. O maybe put up a website?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 19, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
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I was tidying up and found a cluster of four what I assume to be Austrialpin soft iron pitons just like the one in the OP.
The only gear mark.
Two verticals the bottom one a match for the OP piton.
Two of the same size horizontals. Hand-formed from a vertical blank.
I have a bigger stash buried somewhere. LOL
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 20, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
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Presidents Day Bump!
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 20, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
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guido dives in dumpster and finds prize .... :-)
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
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Hey Steve, what is the date on that dime-dam it may be worth some dinero.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 20, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
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1944 when liberty was being thoroughly tested.
Elegant little coin and my favorite prop for scale at 11/16" in diameter same as the Eisenhower.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 10, 2012 - 07:33pm PT
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The rest of my Austrialpin soft iron stash...
Same horizontals as posted earlier but in mint condition.
Universal and ring vertical designs.
Lots of the Universals were sold and left around and less of the ring pitons I suspect.
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Zander
climber
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Mar 10, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
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You guys are killing me here......
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| Messages 1 - 39 of total 39 in this topic |
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