Pearl Harbor remembered 70th anniversary!

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 41 - 60 of total 190 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Dec 7, 2012 - 11:20am PT
The cold war? Depends who you ask. If you asked the vietnamese, the American War as they call it, resulted in too many lost land mines.
Borut

Mountain climber
Ljubljana, Slovenia
Dec 7, 2012 - 11:22am PT
Had we not met Russia at Berlin the map of Europe would have looked very different after the war...
Hi Chris.

This is probably not the right place to discuss this, but the American and Soviet troops did not meet in Berlin. They met much more to the West. Berlin was liberated by the Soviets.

Borut
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 7, 2012 - 11:31am PT
That depends on your specific definition. Americans were flying freely over Berlin in P51s while British and American aircraft and crews were free to bomb at will. I understand that the Soviets were on the ground, but we were there too. There is a reason Berlin was divided.

Don Paul, I have a Vietnamese friend - he was a business associate for a few years - who escaped the country as a boat person several years after we left. His perspective on the war and its outcome is very interesting, this thread is not the place to argue this subject.

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 7, 2012 - 11:51am PT
71 years.... time passes so rapidly.

WE must never forget just how unprepared WE were....and what that cost.

The Men and Women who died that day paid the bill for our weakness.

To honor those who died we must never again be that lame, that weak and that clueless.

Peace
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Dec 7, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
My mother's 10th birthday party was interrupted by the news.

My dad was on his way to Japan when the Bomb was dropped. He got lucky, all he had was occupation duty with the 5th Army Air Force. He had a pretty girlfriend over there.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Dec 7, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
My Mom was talking recently, about being in Shanghai as the Japanese took it over, the "Little Green Men" scurrying from house to house. She was 10. My Dad got drafted and served in the Pacific as well. So I guess both of my Parents are WW2 vets.

I was disturbed a few years ago, reading about the USS OKLAHOMA. Seems some sailors were entombed there and remained alive for about 2 weeks. No one came for them. They left something scrawled inside the hull as an account. At some point, the "OK" was towed to the United States, it was lost enroute and a touching bit of history lost.

Last I checked, the wreck remains one of the 10 most major unlocated warships of WW2.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Dec 7, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
Dec 7, 1941
My American Mother had returned from England two years earlier on the second ship out after Britain declared war on Sept 3, 1939. The first ship out had been torpedoed with significant loss of life.

WWII was well underway in Europe. In 1940 France fell, England evacuated Dunkirk and then won the Battle of Britain. Hitler then turned east against his ally Russia. By Pearl Harbor, all of continental Europe had fallen to Germany and Italy. The bloodiest battles of the war were underway in Russia from Leningrad to Stalingrad and the Black Sea. Norway and Finland had fallen, although both countries continued a stiff armed resistance throughout the war.

Only Great Britain and Russia remained free and fighting.
My Father (formerly a pacifist) was already a Sub-Lieutenant in the Royal Navy serving as gunnery officer in a destroyer on the convoys to Russia around the NordKapp of Norway.
One of his first ships was a Lend Lease former American WWI destroyer
Lend - Lease destroyers and the exchange of naval bases (why we now have a major base on Diego Garcia) were the best Roosevelt could get out of Congress.
My Grandfather, Grandmother, Aunt and Niece had been re-located from London to rural England along with about a million other non-essentials (to the war effort).
John F Kennedy's father was Ambassador to Britain, until his public defeatism in the Battle of Britain caused Roosevelt to recall him.
Meanwhile America fiddled until Pearl Harbor. In those days it required Congress to declare war. As the Constitution requires.
All Europeans, even Germans and Russians, are grateful to America for finally coming to The War.

There is a reason Berlin was divided.
Berlin was divided by the London Treaty of 1944, nearly a year before it was captured by the Russians who then continued further west. The boundary of East/West Germany was approximately along the lines where The "western" ally armies met the Russians. This left Berlin occupied by and completely surrounded by the Russian army. The city was actually divided in July 1945 when the British, French and American armies occupied their sectors.

An interesting animation of the movement of armies in Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Second_world_war_europe_animation_small.gif
darkmagus

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 7, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
Respect for those that died, but don't get caught up in the propaganda.

The higher-ups need disastrous events like this to occur periodically throughout history, perhaps on a generational schedule. So that we all remain freaked out and will consent to endless war.

That's why the "new thing" is 9/11 and pearl harbor isn't talked about as much. It's not as useful anymore, propaganda-wise.
Fossil climber

Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
Dec 7, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
I remember listening to the Pearl Harbor news come in on the radio. I was ten. To give you an idea of the racist mentality of the time, I wasn't much scared by the Japanese, whom most people thought were not a very sophisticated race. But I remember listening to the declaration of war with Germany, and that scared hell out of me.

Humorous note: after the war I was walking down the street with my little brother who was 9, and a couple of people walked by speaking German. Bro said, "What kind of people were those?" I said, "They were Germans." His eyes got very big and he said, "Are they tame yet?"
Gene

climber
Dec 7, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
This is the first Pearl Harbor anniversary I can't pick up a phone and chat with Dad about his experiences back in WWII. I'm sure he and his shipmates are now swapping tales and tipping a few upstairs.

Miss you!
g



darkmagus

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 7, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
"How pathetic"

That's a normal reaction to worldview-challenging information or ideas. I would suggest looking into the issue more deeply if you are so inclined, recognizing that your disgust at what I said has been "bought and paid for" (i.e. "programmed") by the media and it's co-conspirators (big business, government).

I don't think I'm alone in my view (expressed in my earlier post). There are many academics and intellectuals and regular-folk that reject the standard-issue history of our country in favor of something more rational and realistic such as what I proposed.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 7, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2019849572_pearlharbor07.html
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 7, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
Darkmagus, I'm willing to consider the possibility that some people at the top suspected that Japan was going to attack, and were willing to let them land a first blow. If that was a decision made at the top, it was a ruthless one indeed, but strategically effective. I don't see that as some sort of "worldview changing" idea.

That also does not change the fact that there is evil at work in the world. Observe the actions of the Japanese at Nanking and other places, Korea for one. Observe the actions of the Germans against their own Jewish citizens or Saddam Hussien against his Kurdish people. Those were not the actions of high ranking American government officials trying to freak us out.

Sadly I am afraid Plato got it right.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 7, 2012 - 06:48pm PT
Thanks - Gene, Wayne and Ron especially for their personal stories.

My mother visited Germany in about 1937, with her mother and younger sister. She was then about eight, and mostly visiting family in quiet places, but clearly remembered how scary it was.

Very few of the US's leaders in 1941 can have been truly surprised that the Japanese finally responded militarily to economic and other provocations, or that Germany declared war on the US. Even the so-called isolationists, some of whose behaviour is explained by the near-certainty of the US eventually becoming actively involved, and simply wanting to put it off as long as possible. They might have been unsure as to exactly when and how armed conflict would begin, but US support for Britain and its allies became brazen by summer 1941, and the US had been in a pissing match in the Pacific with Japan since the late 1930s. Lend lease, financial and material aid, navy patrols in the Atlantic... Hitler knew that sooner or later Germany would be fighting the USA, and that wasn't just his weltanschaunng talking. Had he not been busy invading the Soviet Union in June 1941, his declaration might have come earlier.

All that said, the attack on Pearl Harbour, like that on 11/9, had a great deal more symbolic than actual effect. Japan could never have beaten the US, and indeed in the greater scheme, Germany was a much more serious opponent.
Tobia

Social climber
Denial
Dec 7, 2012 - 07:24pm PT
Pearl Harbor is a hard pill to swallow; especially if you have been there and felt the breeze slightly tease the Arizona Memorial.

No one should ever forget sacrifices made by those in uniform in the line of duty on any field of battle (including the streets and buildings of the mainland).



At the very very highest level, FDR and a few others were fully aware of the Japanese invasion as it was mobilized and approached.

Since the card was thrown on the table I have to say "baloney".

Certainly our government was aware of the threat of offensive action by the Japanese; but anyone who thinks that virtually all of our Pacific Fleet and most westerly line of defense was about to go up in smoke as a sacrificial lamb is wrong.




Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 7, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
I have the Stinnet book but believe he is reaching.

We knew that war with the Japanese was imminent, but thought that they would attack the Philippines first.

I just watched Tore, Tora, Tora again and feel it was fairly factual.

I like at the end where Yamamoto says, "I fear all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve."
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Dec 8, 2012 - 12:26am PT
Another question is why did MacArthur get caught by surprise? He was very thorough in assaulting the veterans of the Bonus March, why was he so lax in preparing for an attack the day after Pearl Harbor?


guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Dec 8, 2012 - 12:32am PT
I suggest you read "The Generals" by Thomas Ricks, recently published.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Dec 8, 2012 - 01:28am PT
Also read "Imperial Cruise" by James Bradley for some background about Teddy Roosevelt's efforts at influencing policy in the Far-East and how some of those policies influenced later Japanese actions leading to Pearl Harbor.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 8, 2012 - 01:38am PT
I think there's a lot to the book "Day of Deceit" One of the points being that the director of the Office of Naval Intelligence's Far East Asia section proposed an 8 point plan to provoke the Japanese to attack us and we implemented each and every point.

Now it's possible we didn't know how and to what extent we'd be attacked, and maybe it was a coincidence all our aircraft carriers were out to sea when it happened.

but it's worth knowing it didn't come out of the blue but in fact we intentionally invited an attack because we needed one to get in this important war

That doesn't diminish the courage of any of the sailors involved but we should have blinders on about how things work

Peace

Karl

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCollum_memo

The memo outlined the general situation of several nations in World War II and recommended an eight-part course of action for the United States to take in regards to the Japanese Empire in the South Pacific,[citation needed] suggesting the United States provoke Japan into committing an "overt act of war".[2]The memo illustrates several people in the Office of Naval Intelligence promoted the idea of goading Japan into war:[3] "It is not believed that in the present state of political opinion the United States government is capable of declaring war against Japan without more ado [...] If by [the elucidated eight-point plan] Japan could be led to commit an overt act of war, so much the better."

The McCollum memo contained an eight-part plan to counter rising Japanese power over East Asia:

A. Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore
B. Make an arrangement with Holland for the use of base facilities and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies
C. Give all possible aid to the Chinese government of Chiang-Kai-Shek
D. Send a division of long range heavy cruisers to the Orient, Philippines, or Singapore
E. Send two divisions of submarines to the Orient
F. Keep the main strength of the U.S. fleet now in the Pacific[,] in the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands
G. Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for undue economic concessions, particularly oil
H. Completely embargo all U.S. trade with Japan, in collaboration with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire

Admiral Nimitz turned down the command of the Pacific Fleet [12] so that he would not become the scapegoat[citation needed] if the Japanese attacked the United States by surprise. In a History Channel interview, Admiral Chester Nimitz Jr. described his father's political maneuver: "He said, 'It is my guess that the Japanese are going to attack us in a surprise attack. There will be a revulsion in the country against all those in command at sea, and they will be replaced by people in positions of prominence ashore, and I want to be ashore, and not at sea, when that happens.'"

course it's all complicated and there's nuances, but it's not like we were just whistling in the sun and all of a sudden Japan invades
Messages 41 - 60 of total 190 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
spacerCheck 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

guidebook icon
Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta