Pearl Harbor remembered 70th anniversary!

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Messages 41 - 60 of total 120 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 7, 2012 - 10:46am PT
^Those are great shares, Kris.....thanks.

Uncommon valor.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Dec 7, 2012 - 10:51am PT
Klimmer, flabbergastingly, is absolutely right, Pilgrims.

At the very very highest level, FDR and a few others were fully aware of the Japanese invasion as it was mobilized and approached. Imperial Japan was lead into attacking us by FDR along with his few planners in this. It was a very complicated and long-acting strategy to get us into the war and especially into the european theater to save, frankly, western civilization. It had not been possible to get the public and Congress to budge to engage in yet another world war, especially only twenty years after WWI. Day of Deceit is an excellent research piece on this subject; I highly recommend it. This is not some kind of bullshit hoaxy conspiracy but a very studied and researched position that many military historians have now taken. Too long to go into here; read Robert Stinnett's book.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Dec 7, 2012 - 11:07am PT
WWII was a good cause, but the ones after that were all bad ones, and its true that Americans venerate war and their war heros excessively. I think its essentially a TV sports mentality plus the fact that Americans dont travel much or want to know about other cultures.

I was not convinced by Robert Stinnet's book, and his book follows several others promoting the same theory. It seems to be the grandfather of the JFK assassination conspiracy and the great great grandfather of the idea that 9/11 was an inside job. To prove his point he asks the reader to take his word on various interpretations he makes of codes, but I talked to people at the national archives about it and they say he just doesnt understand the codes.

The worst thing, as it turns out, about pearl harbor and 9/11 is that they gave Americans a sense of entitlement to impose their will everywhere in the world. As I said WWII was a good cause, but the America of today is fighting bad causes and believes itself to be saving everyone else from themselves. Sorry folks but those were your grandparents who did that and you're not the same, in endless ways.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 7, 2012 - 11:16am PT
What do you think about the outcome of the cold war?
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Dec 7, 2012 - 11:20am PT
The cold war? Depends who you ask. If you asked the vietnamese, the American War as they call it, resulted in too many lost land mines.
Borut

Mountain climber
Ljubljana, Slovenia
Dec 7, 2012 - 11:22am PT
Had we not met Russia at Berlin the map of Europe would have looked very different after the war...
Hi Chris.

This is probably not the right place to discuss this, but the American and Soviet troops did not meet in Berlin. They met much more to the West. Berlin was liberated by the Soviets.

Borut
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 7, 2012 - 11:31am PT
That depends on your specific definition. Americans were flying freely over Berlin in P51s while British and American aircraft and crews were free to bomb at will. I understand that the Soviets were on the ground, but we were there too. There is a reason Berlin was divided.

Don Paul, I have a Vietnamese friend - he was a business associate for a few years - who escaped the country as a boat person several years after we left. His perspective on the war and its outcome is very interesting, this thread is not the place to argue this subject.

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 7, 2012 - 11:51am PT
71 years.... time passes so rapidly.

WE must never forget just how unprepared WE were....and what that cost.

The Men and Women who died that day paid the bill for our weakness.

To honor those who died we must never again be that lame, that weak and that clueless.

Peace
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Dec 7, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
My mother's 10th birthday party was interrupted by the news.

My dad was on his way to Japan when the Bomb was dropped. He got lucky, all he had was occupation duty with the 5th Army Air Force. He had a pretty girlfriend over there.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Dec 7, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
My Mom was talking recently, about being in Shanghai as the Japanese took it over, the "Little Green Men" scurrying from house to house. She was 10. My Dad got drafted and served in the Pacific as well. So I guess both of my Parents are WW2 vets.

I was disturbed a few years ago, reading about the USS OKLAHOMA. Seems some sailors were entombed there and remained alive for about 2 weeks. No one came for them. They left something scrawled inside the hull as an account. At some point, the "OK" was towed to the United States, it was lost enroute and a touching bit of history lost.

Last I checked, the wreck remains one of the 10 most major unlocated warships of WW2.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Dec 7, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
Dec 7, 1941
My American Mother had returned from England two years earlier on the second ship out after Britain declared war on Sept 3, 1939. The first ship out had been torpedoed with significant loss of life.

WWII was well underway in Europe. In 1940 France fell, England evacuated Dunkirk and then won the Battle of Britain. Hitler then turned east against his ally Russia. By Pearl Harbor, all of continental Europe had fallen to Germany and Italy. The bloodiest battles of the war were underway in Russia from Leningrad to Stalingrad and the Black Sea. Norway and Finland had fallen, although both countries continued a stiff armed resistance throughout the war.

Only Great Britain and Russia remained free and fighting.
My Father (formerly a pacifist) was already a Sub-Lieutenant in the Royal Navy serving as gunnery officer in a destroyer on the convoys to Russia around the NordKapp of Norway.
Midshipman Frederick Glover, RNVR ca 1941
Midshipman Frederick Glover, RNVR ca 1941
Credit: HighTraverse
Sub-Lieutenant Frederick Glover, RNVR, ca 1941
Sub-Lieutenant Frederick Glover, RNVR, ca 1941
Credit: HighTraverse
One of his first ships was a Lend Lease former American WWI destroyer
Lend Lease destroyers delivered to Great Britain.
Lend Lease destroyers delivered to Great Britain.
Credit: HighTraverse
Royal Navy Destroyer Escort in heavy seas
Royal Navy Destroyer Escort in heavy seas
Credit: HighTraverse
Bridge of Royal Navy Destroyer on convoy duty.
Bridge of Royal Navy Destroyer on convoy duty.
Credit: HighTraverse
Lend - Lease destroyers and the exchange of naval bases (why we now have a major base on Diego Garcia) were the best Roosevelt could get out of Congress.
My Grandfather, Grandmother, Aunt and Niece had been re-located from London to rural England along with about a million other non-essentials (to the war effort).
Credit: HighTraverse
John F Kennedy's father was Ambassador to Britain, until his public defeatism in the Battle of Britain caused Roosevelt to recall him.
Meanwhile America fiddled until Pearl Harbor. In those days it required Congress to declare war. As the Constitution requires.
All Europeans, even Germans and Russians, are grateful to America for finally coming to The War.

There is a reason Berlin was divided.
Berlin was divided by the London Treaty of 1944, nearly a year before it was captured by the Russians who then continued further west. The boundary of East/West Germany was approximately along the lines where The "western" ally armies met the Russians. This left Berlin occupied by and completely surrounded by the Russian army. The city was actually divided in July 1945 when the British, French and American armies occupied their sectors.

An interesting animation of the movement of armies in Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Second_world_war_europe_animation_small.gif
darkmagus

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 7, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
Respect for those that died, but don't get caught up in the propaganda.

The higher-ups need disastrous events like this to occur periodically throughout history, perhaps on a generational schedule. So that we all remain freaked out and will consent to endless war.

That's why the "new thing" is 9/11 and pearl harbor isn't talked about as much. It's not as useful anymore, propaganda-wise.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 7, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
but don't get caught up in the propaganda.

The higher-ups need disastrous events like this to occur periodically throughout history, perhaps on a generational schedule. So that we all remain freaked out and will consent to endless war.

That's why the "new thing" is 9/11 and pearl harbor isn't talked about as much. It's not as useful anymore, propaganda-wise.






How pathetic.
Fossil climber

Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
Dec 7, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
I remember listening to the Pearl Harbor news come in on the radio. I was ten. To give you an idea of the racist mentality of the time, I wasn't much scared by the Japanese, whom most people thought were not a very sophisticated race. But I remember listening to the declaration of war with Germany, and that scared hell out of me.

Humorous note: after the war I was walking down the street with my little brother who was 9, and a couple of people walked by speaking German. Bro said, "What kind of people were those?" I said, "They were Germans." His eyes got very big and he said, "Are they tame yet?"
Gene

climber
Dec 7, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
This is the first Pearl Harbor anniversary I can't pick up a phone and chat with Dad about his experiences back in WWII. I'm sure he and his shipmates are now swapping tales and tipping a few upstairs.

Miss you!
g

Credit: Gene

Credit: Gene

Credit: Gene
QITNL

climber
Dec 7, 2012 - 03:30pm PT
Eye of Diablo to be lit

A handful of volunteers spent a chilly morning last week at the top of Mount Diablo to make sure a bright beacon would shine once again to remember America's darkest day.

The beacon is the Eye of Diablo, lit only once a year, on Dec. 7, the anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. The Eye will be lit after a ceremony at sunset on Friday and turned off again at sunrise the next morning.

(snip)

In 1928, the Standard Oil Co. of California put up a beacon on the peak to guide airplanes. It was moved in 1939 from a steel tower to the present site atop a stone and steel summit building. The beacon is so powerful it can be seen for almost 200 miles.

On Dec.8, 1941, the day after Pearl Harbor, the light was turned off lest it serve as a guide for enemy planes. It was dark for 23 years.

In 1964, Fleet Adm. Chester Nimitz suggested the beacon be turned on every Dec. 7 to honor the memory of Pearl Harbor. Every year there was a ceremony, and Pearl Harbor survivors came to tell their stories. But now, after 71 years, the ranks are thinning. Only five Pearl Harbor survivors are left among the million people who live near Diablo.

Read more:
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Beacon-spotlights-Pearl-Harbor-ceremony-4098492.php

See for yourself:
http://www.mtdiablocam.com/
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 7, 2012 - 03:42pm PT
America's darkest day.

A dark day, no doubt, but I don't think it ranks as the "darkest."

There are more than a few days during the Civil War that rank as much darker than the day of the Pearl Harbor attack.
darkmagus

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 7, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
"How pathetic"

That's a normal reaction to worldview-challenging information or ideas. I would suggest looking into the issue more deeply if you are so inclined, recognizing that your disgust at what I said has been "bought and paid for" (i.e. "programmed") by the media and it's co-conspirators (big business, government).

I don't think I'm alone in my view (expressed in my earlier post). There are many academics and intellectuals and regular-folk that reject the standard-issue history of our country in favor of something more rational and realistic such as what I proposed.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 7, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2019849572_pearlharbor07.html
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 7, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
Darkmagus, I'm willing to consider the possibility that some people at the top suspected that Japan was going to attack, and were willing to let them land a first blow. If that was a decision made at the top, it was a ruthless one indeed, but strategically effective. I don't see that as some sort of "worldview changing" idea.

That also does not change the fact that there is evil at work in the world. Observe the actions of the Japanese at Nanking and other places, Korea for one. Observe the actions of the Germans against their own Jewish citizens or Saddam Hussien against his Kurdish people. Those were not the actions of high ranking American government officials trying to freak us out.

Sadly I am afraid Plato got it right.
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