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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Actually Ron, although I don't hold with the Robert Stinnett theory that FDR knew about the attack, he was needling the Japanese deliberately with embargoes of critical resources as he knew that many Americans were strongly isolationist despite the fact that Nazis were already killing hundreds of American seamen.
And we were reading their coded messages faster than they were.
I hold with the school that says the Japanese started World War II, not with Pearl Harbor but with Manchuria four years earlier.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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My Father, ex-pacifist and Midshipman in Her Majesty's Royal Volunteer Naval Reserve.
His first posting was to one of these "Destroyers From Bases" ex US WWI destroyers.
Roughly contemporaneous to the British V and W class destroyers they were not much liked by their new crews. They were uncomfortable and wet, working badly in a seaway. Their hull lines were rather narrow and 'herring-gutted' which gave them a vicious roll. The officers didn't like the way they handled either, since they had been built with propellors that turned the same way (2-screw ships normally have the shafts turning in opposite directions as the direction of rotation has effects on the rudder and the whole ship when manoeuvring, especially when coming alongside), so these were as awkward to handle as single-screw ships. Their turning circle was enormous, as big as most Royal Navy battleships, making them difficult to use in a submarine hunt which demanded tight manoeuvres, compounded by unreliable "chain and cog" steering gear laid across the main deck. Pretty rough duty.
An officer at last: Lieutenant
Final rating: Lieutenant Commander
My Father served as a Lieutenant (gunnery and navigator) on a ship similar to this about 1942
Did at least two convoy duties over the top of Norway to Archangel and Murmansk
Then he did coastal patrols against submarines and aircraft, mostly from various Scottish ports.
He commanded a Landing Craft Tank - Rocket at Sword Beach on D-Day.
Then they removed the rocket launchers and he ferried supplies to the beach for several weeks before returning to a Gunboat on coastal defense.
He was still serving in 1946, commanding a Destroyer towing hulks from Normandy back to England for scrapping.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Although my Grandfather wasn't involved in Pearl Harbor, my GF was a Navy Intelligence Officer and worked at the Pentagon.
My GF was a Russian Codebreaker during WW2. He went through many Russian language schools within the service, one of which was at Boulder, CO.
He never told us exactly what he did, due to his security oath, until the 50 years was up. And then he was happy to tell us all that he worked on.
I miss my Grandfather very much.
They are an entire generation of Heroes.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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It's difficult for American/Canadians to imagine the hardship the civilians of all the other belligerent nations had to suffer.
My Uncle was a Metropolitan Policeman (London Bobby) from before The War (WWII) and throughout. On duty in London through the Blitz.
Meanwhile my Aunt, her daughter and my Grandparents, like all unnecessary civilians, were relocated to a gate keeper's cottage in Arundel. Even though it wasn't a target, a couple of bombs fell nearby.
My family was very lucky to not have anyone seriously injured or killed in The War. One of my Uncles was killed in The War To End All Wars (WWI)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Figures that Klimmer's GF was a Russian codebreaker.
(they were on our side)
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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A postcard sent from my dad, chief engineer on a tanker, picking up a load of oil from Balikpapan Borneo 3 months before Pearl Harbor. Interesting that the Dutch were already censoring mail!
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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May 10,. 1940, Germany invaded and soon overwhelmed Holland.
From Wikipedia
Queen Wilhelmina, her family and the government evacuated to Britain, but during the Battle of Britain her daughter Princess Juliana and her children proceeded to Ottawa, Canada. So the Dutch government ruled the colonies from exile in England. There appears to have been 18 months of calm in the Dutch West Indies. Until the day after Pearl Harbor.
On December 8, 1941, Netherlands declared war on Japan.[10] In January the American-British-Dutch-Australian Command (ABDACOM) was formed to co-ordinate Allied forces in South East Asia, under the commander of General Archibald Wavell[11]. On the night of January 10–11, 1942, the Japanese attacked Menado[12] in Sulawesi. At about the same moment they attacked Tarakan[13], a major oil extraction centre and port in the north east of Borneo. On February 27, the Allied fleet was defeated in the Battle of the Java Sea[14]. From February 28 to March 1, 1942, Japanese troops landed on four places along the northern coast of Java almost undisturbed[15]. On March 8, the Allied forces in Indonesia surrendered. The colonial army was consigned to detention camps and Indonesian soldiers were released. European civilians were interned once Japanese or Indonesian replacements could be found for senior and technical positions.
So I wonder who censored your Dad's mail in Sep 1941? I suppose the Dutch West Indies was preparing for the Japanese attack. They also wouldn't want strategic information getting to Germany.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Figures that Klimmer's GF was a Russian codebreaker.
(they were on our side)
Lol. Do you really think we didn't keep an eye on all of our allies during the great war, and especially even more so today?
And then it turns out right after WW2 they became a foe.
CCCccccccccccoooooooommmmmmm-oooooooooooooooonnnnnnn, geeeeeeeeeeeeeees.
(C'mon, gees)
Get real.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Yeah, we kept an eye on them, but they did a better job of it.
After the White Sands test Truman got word in Europe that the "gizmo" worked so he decided to tell Stalin.
Trouble was; Stalin already knew!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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And then it turns out right after WW2 they became a foe.
They were a foe well before the war ended. Had we not met Russia at Berlin the map of Europe would have looked very different after the war...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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On 8 Dec the Secret Service was very concerned that the Japs might kill
Roosevelt on his way to the Capitol for his speech. At that time there was
a law that the government couldn't spend more than $750 on a car so the Pres
had been riding around in a regular old car. The Secret Service decided he
needed a bullet-proof job and the only one they could lay their mitts on
toute de suite was the one Treasury had confiscated from Al Capone for his tax
liability. When Roosevelt got into the car he asked his driver where the new
car had come from. After hearing the answer the ever quick-witted Roosevelt
said, "I hope Al doesn't mind."
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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At that time there was
a law that the government couldn't spend more than $750 on a car
Lets get that one back on the books!!
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Park Rat
Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2012 - 09:08am PT
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It's December 7, Pearl Harbor day.
The 71st anniversary of Pearl Harbor.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Congressional Medal of Honor
FLAHERTY, FRANCIS C.
Rank and organization: Ensign, U.S. Naval Reserve. Born: 15 March 1919, Charlotte, Mich. Accredited to: Michigan. Citation: For conspicuous devotion to duty and extraordinary courage and complete disregard of his own life, above and beyond the call of duty, during the attack on the Fleet in Pearl Harbor, by Japanese forces on 7 December 1941. When it was seen that the U.S.S. Oklahoma was going to capsize and the order was given to abandon ship, Ens. Flaherty remained in a turret, holding a flashlight so the remainder of the turret crew could see to escape, thereby sacrificing his own life.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Interesting. I just got off the phone with my stepfather, 87, brother of Francis Flaherty. I suggested we make a trip to home depot this afternoon for some things he needs. He wondered if they would be open on Dec. 7. It took me a minute to make the connection.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Klimmer, flabbergastingly, is absolutely right, Pilgrims.
At the very very highest level, FDR and a few others were fully aware of the Japanese invasion as it was mobilized and approached. Imperial Japan was lead into attacking us by FDR along with his few planners in this. It was a very complicated and long-acting strategy to get us into the war and especially into the european theater to save, frankly, western civilization. It had not been possible to get the public and Congress to budge to engage in yet another world war, especially only twenty years after WWI. Day of Deceit is an excellent research piece on this subject; I highly recommend it. This is not some kind of bullshit hoaxy conspiracy but a very studied and researched position that many military historians have now taken. Too long to go into here; read Robert Stinnett's book.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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WWII was a good cause, but the ones after that were all bad ones, and its true that Americans venerate war and their war heros excessively. I think its essentially a TV sports mentality plus the fact that Americans dont travel much or want to know about other cultures.
I was not convinced by Robert Stinnet's book, and his book follows several others promoting the same theory. It seems to be the grandfather of the JFK assassination conspiracy and the great great grandfather of the idea that 9/11 was an inside job. To prove his point he asks the reader to take his word on various interpretations he makes of codes, but I talked to people at the national archives about it and they say he just doesnt understand the codes.
The worst thing, as it turns out, about pearl harbor and 9/11 is that they gave Americans a sense of entitlement to impose their will everywhere in the world. As I said WWII was a good cause, but the America of today is fighting bad causes and believes itself to be saving everyone else from themselves. Sorry folks but those were your grandparents who did that and you're not the same, in endless ways.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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What do you think about the outcome of the cold war?
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