Why are Republicans Wrong about Everything?

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 47541 - 47560 of total 52579 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 4, 2013 - 11:20am PT
The problem is that Bush and now McConnell and Boehner just weren't/aren't conservative enough. If only they were more conservative, our problems would be solved and the electorate would forever reject statism.

I wish you were kidding, dirtbag, but too many actually believe that argument. That's actually an intellectual kin to the argument both left- and right-wingnuts make: All of America's problems are caused because we [choose one] [ ] left wing progressives or [ ] right wing patriots compromised rather than going all in.

John
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 4, 2013 - 11:30am PT
You don't know much about the political process, do you, Sketch?

Not as much as I should.

But I've got a good nose.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 4, 2013 - 11:39am PT
Lezarain...Most of our problems are because big business chooses who will represent the voters while truly representing big business.. Big business calls the shots and writes the script for what's going to happen in America..The political system is all about special interest and the voters have been left out of the equation....How do we solve this problem...?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 4, 2013 - 11:43am PT
she's lip syncing <br/>
she's lip syncing

Credit: Wade Icey
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 4, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
I wish you were kidding, dirtbag, but too many actually believe that argument. That's actually an intellectual kin to the argument both left- and right-wingnuts make: All of America's problems are caused because we [choose one] [ ] left wing progressives or [ ] right wing patriots compromised rather than going all in.

John

Except that's a false equivalence. When a couple of non-partisan political commentators identify one particular political party as the root of our political dysfunction, people should take note. In their 2013 book "it's Even Worse Than it Looks," Mann and Ornstein wrote:


"One of the two major parties, the Republican Party, has become an insurgent outlier — ideologically extreme; contemptuous of the inherited social and economic policy regime; scornful of compromise; unpersuaded by conventional understanding of facts, evidence, and science; and dismissive of the legitimacy of its political opposition. When one party moves this far from the center of American politics, it is extremely difficult to enact policies responsive to the country’s most pressing challenges."

Curt
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 4, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
Wade.. Yeah.. Knucklehead Smith...
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 4, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
rj,

I would modify your diagnosis slightly. Well-funded special interests largely control what both parties do, but not everyone recognizes the extent to which a special interest constitutes "big business." Are government employee unions "big business?" What about the plaintiffs' bar? Most don't think of either of these groups when they think "big business," but both are very big businesses considering the dollar volume they represent, and both spend huge amounts of money on the Democratic Party to make sure that their special interests get protected from the people.

Fortunately for us, most special interests, have opposite well-funded special interest willing to spend for the other side. In a way, it reminds me of a lithograph with which many lawyers are familiar, entitled "The Lawsuit." The picture has a cow with the plaintiff pulling on the head, the defendant pulling on the tail, and the two lawyers milking the cow. Substitute "elected officials" for lawyers, and it bears a disturbing resemblance to current government.

The best we can do is simply to pay attention, but that's becoming harder every day as "news" sources specialize in entertainment reinforcing our irrational beliefs, rather than objective information. If we got our information from more substantial sources than television, where 20 seconds constitutes an in-depth story, we might have more rational elections, but logic always has its limits. Prop. 13 is a classic example.

Although I'm sure many will disagree, Prop. 13 in California was really a grass-roots reaction to what a substantial majority of California voters felt was a staggering increase both in their taxes and in the size and direction of spending by the California governments. I'm also quite certain that most California voters in 1978 knew exactly what was at stake in that election. I don't think it had the effect for which most of its supporters hoped -- although it did, at least, keep property tax increases from forcing them from their homes for a few decades.

All of this really goes back, though, to the arguments we've made in this thread and its predecessors. We argue by showing our opponents are imperfect, and therefore [sic] we are better. As much as I mistrust the judgment of the average voter, I have yet to find a better alternative. So I can gripe, but I'm also grateful my life doesn't depend on the good graces of, say, Vladimir Putin.

John
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 4, 2013 - 01:03pm PT



http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/11/03/Civil-Rights-Leaders-React-to-VA-Dem-Lt-Gov-Candidate-Refusing-to-Shake-Opponent-s-Hand
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 4, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
And another former Republican finally sees the light:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/04/charlie-crist-florida-governor_n_4213223.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

Curt
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 4, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
Except that's a false equivalence. When a couple of non-partisan political commentators identify one particular political party as the root of our political dysfunction, people should take note. In their 2013 book "it's Even Worse Than it Looks," Mann and Ornstein wrote:

I'm quite familiar with It's Even Worse Than It Looks, but "nonpartisan" doesn't necessarily mean objective. Both Brookings (where Mann works) and the American Enterprise Institute (where Ornstein works) are "nonpartisan," but both have agendas. Brookings is about as far to the left as AEI is to the right. Although I consider Ornstein a liberal/centrist, I'm also quite aware of his connection to Al Franken, which I think clouds his judgment on this issue a bit.

That said, I think their diagnosis was spot on for the latest House Republicans bungle and, to my mind, the Republican congress during most of the Bush II Administration. Their diagnosis is dead wrong, however, when applied to, say, the California Legislature. Mann and Ornstein's description of congressional Republicans holds equally true for California Democrats. The source of the problem is exactly the same: the wingnuts control the California Democratic Party, and have a core of beliefs unencumbered by reality.

I also disagree with their exemption of the Democrats from hyperpartisan dysfunction. Where was any compromise attempt in, for example, the Affordable [sic] Care Act? What about in economic policy generally? I particularly laugh when I hear the excuse that the majority cannot govern. The Republicans are doing nothing the Democrats didn't do when the Republicans had the presidency and one or more houses of Congress. All you need to do is look at Obama's quotes and votes as a Senator to see the hypocrisy in that charge.


Here in the San Joaquin Valley, I'm used to politicians whose pragmatism overwhelms their partisanship. For that reason, the wingnut leaders of both parties hate both our Democratic and our Republican representatives and legislators. Before this last election, the radical left mounted a rather outlandish campaign against Jim Costa, a "Valleycrat" representative. His crime: failure to be sufficiently green, because he actually cared about what would happen to farmers, farmworkers, and residents of his district if the purists had their way. Republicans here face similar opposition from the right, for the "crime" of voting to end the shutdown, or supporting immigration reform, or actually voting for higher taxes to pay for what we need. Fortunately, those primary challengers almost always lose, but only because the gerrymander that infects the state as a whole can't draw districts here that favor extremists. We're just too cussed independent.

Finally, I'd ask you to consider a party that has no room for Joe Lieberman. Is such a party really in the mainstream more than the Republicans? I think not.

John
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 4, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
Well John, since you're obviously partisan, I can see why you claim Mann & Ornstein are not objective. To a Republican, anything not originating from Fox News or Breitbart is not objective and is left-leaning.

I have little respect for Lieberman anymore. He is the sole reason that the public option was removed from the ACA.

Curt
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 4, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
And another former Republican finally sees the light:

You mean "the light" as in "I want to be in office, but my party won't nominate me?" Rather the same way in which Bloomberg is a Republican in New York City.

Still, you make a good point. If Crist keeps his political views intact and can still get the Democratic nomination for governor, I would say good on the Democrats. Time will tell.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 4, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
I have little respect for Lieberman anymore. He is the sole reason that the public option was removed from the ACA.

Thanks for making my point.

John
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 4, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
Where was any compromise attempt in, for example, the Affordable [sic] Care Act?


That example just doesn't' work, John.

For the Democrats, what would have been the point in compromising? Zero Republicans were going to vote in support of Obama's key legislative goal, no matter what was in it. For the Republicans, "Obamacare" was all about "Obama" and had nothing to do with "care." Their only goal was to defeat Obama, and they were quite unified in that goal.

And that's the crux of the situation. Someone said it upthread quite succinctly: "Repeal Obamacare is a slogan, not a policy."

Compromise requires both sides to recognize that there can be "win win."

The Republicans believe the only way to win is to ensure the other side loses. They seem to have reached the point that they don't care if anybody wins.




JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 4, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
The Republicans believe the only way to win is to ensure the other side loses. They seem to have reached the point that they don't care if anybody wins.

I think you're painting with too broad a brush, Dave, but recent Republican stunts make me less sure of my position. We'll see what happens in the next go-around on the budget/continuing resolution/debt ceiling charade. I'm not particularly sanguine on the prospects of my party acting like a grown-up. If the centrists in both parties weren't afraid of alienating their bases, they'd be closeted right now about fixing both the health care bill and the budget mess. I'm not holding my breath.

John
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 4, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
That example just doesn't' work, John.

For the Democrats, what would have been the point in compromising? Zero Republicans were going to vote in support of Obama's key legislative goal, no matter what was in it. For the Republicans, "Obamacare" was all about "Obama" and had nothing to do with "care." Their only goal was to defeat Obama, and they were quite unified in that goal.

And that's the crux of the situation. Someone said it upthread quite succinctly: "Repeal Obamacare is a slogan, not a policy."

Compromise requires both sides to recognize that there can be "win win."

The Republicans believe the only way to win is to ensure the other side loses. They seem to have reached the point that they don't care if anybody wins.

I read this and had to double check to make sure I was at the right thread.

You summed up the GOP's problems , without a bunch of childish, unnecessary insults.

Kudos to you!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 4, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
You summed up the GOP's problems , without a bunch of childish, unnecessary insults.

Kudos to you!

That's Dave's m.o., Sketch, and there are several others here like him. You just need the equivalent of a noise blanker to up the S/N ratio.

John
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 4, 2013 - 02:41pm PT
Nah...I can be a real jerk sometimes.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 4, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
From the
Ya'll ain't gonna believe this sh1t
department:

Sorry I can't post it. Check out the link.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/11/haley-barbour-washington-dc-99306.html
Bharata

Mountain climber
Pune
Nov 4, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
Credit: Bharata

Messages 47541 - 47560 of total 52579 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews