Ron Anderson
Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
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Mar 11, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
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So what happens to the next 10 million that enter illegally after the "amnesties"..?
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Mar 11, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
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One reason that we are talking past each other is that many have attempted to redefine socialism ...
That is exactly correct, Dave. Unfortunately, you're going with those that redefined it to suit their particular interests.
Perhaps you'd be interested in how socialists define socialism. That would give you a good place to start. I'd suggest Socialism by Michael Harrington and Socialism on the Defensive and Socialism Re-examined by Norman Thomas.
You might not agree with them or their conclusions, but you'll learn something for sure.
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Dave Kos
Social climber
Temecula
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Mar 11, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
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Gary, I'm pretty sure that I'm using the "old school" definition of socialism. I've read Marx, who wrote his stuff more than a century ago. Harrington is actually an example of one of the more recent authors who are trying to redefine it. (I admit I haven't read Harrington's books, but I'm familiar with his positions.)
I'm not opposed to government policies that are based on socialism. I believe the US should have universal healthcare, that the government should provide plenty of public goods and infrastructure. I also believe in strong government regulation, particularly in areas where markets can fail. But I do believe that, for the majority of economic activity, prices and allocation should be determined by market forces.
In other words, I'm pretty-much a political moderate.
I just think it's absurd that most Republicans refuse to acknowledge that their beloved defense industry is based on a socialist economic model.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Mar 11, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
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Very good, Dave.
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jghedge
climber
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Mar 11, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
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"So what happens to the next 10 million that enter illegally after the "amnesties"..?"
They're given amnesty, granted citizenship, and will vote Democrat.
Meanwhile the Stupid Old White repub base dies - and their worthless party with them.
Good Times!
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Mar 11, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Mar 11, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
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The latino produce pickers live in poverty and work their asses off while working for slave wages...I find it disgusting that Americans think this is an acceptable plight based on the fact that these temporary workers are latino...Studies have found that paying these workers a living wage won't kill the sales of produce...It's the same conservative scare tactic that raising the minimum wage will hurt the economy....Boo!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Mar 11, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
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"So what happens to the next 10 million that enter illegally after the "amnesties"..?"
probably the same thing that happened when Republican Reagan gave amnesty to 15 million illegals
the majority of them did not bother to go through the long and expensive process of becoming US citizens
same thing will happen this time
oh, by the way, "Hispanics" have a very poor record of turning out for elections
so the concept that 10 million illegals will go through the process, become eligible to vote, and then actually vote is not a rationally derived conclusion
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Mar 11, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
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^^^ No but it's funny to scare the little baby Jebus out of repulican'ts and TEAhadists by saying it.
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Dr. F.
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 11, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
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Who will it hurt if 10 million people become new American citizens???
Not me
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Dr. F.
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 11, 2013 - 07:01pm PT
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Dave
you have to call those Gov.s Communist, not Socialist
Communism is a type of socialism that has had good and bad results
No Communist nation would call them selves socialists, they are called Communists.
Communism is as old as Human civilization, it works great for small tribes and villages, communal living, work together as a society! what a novelty!
The 3 examples you use were ruled by extremist Authoritarian leaders, and most often categorized as Far Right Wing tyrannical despots.
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Dr. F.
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 11, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
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Dr. F.
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 11, 2013 - 07:30pm PT
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Dr. F.
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 11, 2013 - 07:31pm PT
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The Party of Whiners
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/03/10/republicans-crying-in-their-beer-how-the-grand-old-party-became-the-pity-me-party/
Ronald Reagan took and built upon mistrust of the government, which set in after the Watergate scandal forced Richard Nixon out of office. He made it OK to ridicule public service. Government workers, after all, were just crooks looking for a way to take money out of your pockets. He envisioned an America where it was OK to have ice cream for dinner. Taking more money out of the tip jar than you put in? That was just setting things right and getting your fair share even if it took away from others. In Reagan’s America, people were homeless or jobless because they wanted to be and deserved no help from their fellow Americans.
But then Reagan took that distrust and aimed it in another direction. It wasn’t just government that was the problem, it was the Democrats. It wasn’t the party of Nixon, but the party which stood in opposition to Nixon which was the problem. He used the power of the bully pulpit to hammer the idea into people’s heads, without ever saying so, that Republicans were the “responsible” party, and Democrats were weaklings, unable to govern effectively. The Democratic party, being the actual party of responsibility, ignored this and kept working to keep this nation afloat, even as – enter stage right – came the Gingrich Revolution. By assuring people they were the victim and letting them wallow in “woe is me,” Reagan in turn created the foundation upon which Newt Gingrich built, and now we have a Republican party which does not govern, but instead sits in wallowing self-pity. Nothing is their fault; it is the fault of government, lazy people on welfare, or people on an unemployment vacation. The party of “personal responsibility” wants to take no responsibility for their own actions, or results.
So, when they find themselves on the losing side of any debate, they are quick to throw about the blame. You will find them blaming losses on non-existent organizations like ACORN, the demands of the slut vote, and the fact that Obama promised “free crap.” At no point do they sit down and say, “what did I do wrong?” It is always someone else who gets the blame. Just recently, Marco Rubio‘s rebuttal to the State of the Union address offers some prime examples:
“In fact, a major cause of our recent downturn was a housing crisis created by reckless government policies.
We don’t have to raise taxes to avoid the President’s devastating cuts to our military.
And tonight, he even criticized us for refusing to raise taxes to delay military cuts – cuts that were his idea in the first place.
“The real cause of our debt is that our government has been spending 1 trillion dollars more than it takes in every year.”
All of these, of course, are Republican ideas now being blamed on the President. The spending cuts, the deregulation push resulting in economic collapse, and most of all, the budget, with all that spending and deficit that Rubio is complaining about, have been created by the Republican controlled House of Representatives. By blaming the President, Republicans are attempting to shift blame which they rightfully deserve. And this is but a single speech given by a single member of the Republican Party. You find other examples in Paul Ryan blaming Obama for Medicare cuts he proposed, how the Democrats are to blame for gun violence, not the NRA, or even how Democrats are buying votes. They call the President a con man, a bully, and far, far worse. They seek to blame the President, when their own policies and programs are the ones at fault.
The problem is that the GOP image was built on the illusion of being “the strong ones.” Recall the attacks against Democratic candidates as being soft on crime/terror/communism/fill-in-the-blank. They presented themselves as tough as nails, the cowboys. Now they are the crybabies, unable to handle not getting their own way. In fact, it comes down to a much more basic concept, something every 3rd grader understands. The Republicans are nothing but a bunch of bullies.
Fact is, they never were tough; they never had workable ideas. They just puffed themselves up and went after what they viewed as a weaker opponent in order to try to mask how fragile they actually were. Ever since Richard Nixon destroyed whatever progress the Republicans had made in this country, they have been puffing themselves up to appear bigger, stronger and more confident. In reality, they had not a clue what they were doing. And now, the bullies got a scratch and are running home to mommy.
They had control of all three branches of government, which they’d claimed would herald in a conservative utopia. Instead, we had two recessions in a single presidential administration. We had the housing market collapse. We had banking institutions relying on government handouts simply to function. Our entire economy ground to a halt. We had a lost decade. Despite their promises, they could not deliver. And what do they do? They blame everyone but themselves, even now.
Right-wing windbag Rush Limbaugh, as ever, can’t grasp what is going on, believing that Obama is some mad genius strategist. But not only that, he’s a mad king, a tyrant with absolute power. Limbaugh fails to grasp that the only thing Obama is doing is acting in the same manner an adult does when a child is throwing a tantrum. He is standing there, and letting the tantrum work itself out, not lifting a finger in any way, shape or form.
The Republican Party is at the point where they either grow up or be relegated to the dustbin of history. Their fairy tale, that they can have their cake and eat it too, is over.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Mar 11, 2013 - 07:36pm PT
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Excellent post good Doctor.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Mar 11, 2013 - 07:59pm PT
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In Reagan's defense, his "government is the problem" speech specifically (and in the same breath) cited "this moment" as when government was "not the solution to our problems." Reaganites seem to forget that.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Mar 12, 2013 - 08:01am PT
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 12, 2013 - 09:51am PT
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your government at work:
a mere 800 pages of new regulations...in ONE DAY!
total obamacare pages to date (even before full implementation)?
20,000 pages
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Mar 12, 2013 - 09:57am PT
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The entire CRF isn't much more than the picture bookworm posted.
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