Why are Republicans Wrong about Everything?

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HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Mar 26, 2014 - 07:34pm PT
a) He feared for his life - a fear that is not, even in the remotest sense, unfounded, given the agencies he was dealing with.
It's highly unlikely he would have been killed. Knowing about what he knows is extremely valuable.
He didn't have the cojones to face what is arguably still a fair and open legal system. Excluding of course Gitmo.

b) He is smart and knew full well what the government had in store for him
Yup. A thorough debriefing and a long time in federal prison.
Knowing you're in for a rough ride if you're caught is never an excuse for criminal behavior.


c) His agenda was simply to enable America to have this conversation, and he would not be able to inform that conversation from solitary confinement.
See my response to b), above.
Innocent until proven guilty is one of the most basic principles of our legal system.
In the narrow interpretation of the law you are correct.
However prima facie he has admitted guilt. In public, several times.

I haven't yet made up my mind if I approve of what Snowden did although I certainly approved of Ellsberg. Ellsberg gave himself up when indicted. Was tried in open court, and served his prison term. His actions helped to shorten that war. All entirely rational acts for a man who believed the Vietnam War was illegal and desperately wrong for his Country.
And most of us demonstrating on campuses and in the streets were willing to go to prison if prosecuted.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 26, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
Dirtbag wrote: I happen to also think OJ is a murdering puke, even though a jury of knuckleheads decided otherwise.

What proof did they present to convict him. Gloves that didn't fit??

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 26, 2014 - 07:39pm PT

again

but to your original point, how exactly is the Obama Administration stifling "freedom of the press" by wanting Snowden to answer for breaking our laws?

huh?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Mar 26, 2014 - 07:39pm PT
Read about what the NSA actually used its powers for
Been there and still doing that.
I really don't like what they're doing. I believe much of it is illegal. I'd likely be fully behind Snowden if he hadn't run to Russia (that wonderful freedom loving nation). What do you think Putin would do with a Russian that did the same thing? Hanging or firing squad or disappearance?

Consider it my old fashioned moral principle that if you deliberately break the law you should be punished for it. If you are CERTAIN the national interest and security are bettered by your lawbreaking, you should take your medicine. No one forced or bribed (as far as we know) or blackmailed Snowden into his actions. His was an act of Free Will and the consequences are part of that action.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 26, 2014 - 07:41pm PT
OJ?

evidence?

are you serious, Bob? or maybe you didn't actually watch the trial.....

here you go
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/simpson/evidence.html
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 26, 2014 - 07:46pm PT
Being exiled seems to be a serious consequence to me. By all accounts, Snowden's not a Russophile, particularly. He wants to come back.

This isn't about Snowden, though.

This is deciding whether or not we believe in the Rule of Law or want to live under Big Brother. Lest we forget: the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board has already ruled the NSA's actions unconstitutional.

It's also about oversight. History proves over and over again that not enough of it leads to abuse of power.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 26, 2014 - 07:50pm PT
Norton...the LA cops doomed that case from the start. The were like Keystone cops.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Mar 26, 2014 - 07:54pm PT
It's also about oversight. History proves over and over again that not enough of it leads to abuse of power.
I absolutely agree. Which is why, had Snowden faced the music, I'd be fully behind him. So would a lot more Americans.
I'm not particularly against him right now. He might be too young and naive to know the details of the Vietnam War and Ellsberg.
If does know about Vietnam and Ellsberg, then he really is a coward.


Bob d'A
yup on OJ
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 26, 2014 - 07:58pm PT
Tvash said
Being exiled seems to be a serious consequence to me. By all accounts, Snowden's not a Russophile, particularly. He wants to come back.

He didn't win Putin's good graces by giving him nothing. If you folks find yourself seeing Snowden as either 100% hero or 100% villain you are 100% wrong. There is nothing cut and dry about this.
John M

climber
Mar 26, 2014 - 08:05pm PT
He didn't win Putin's good graces by giving him nothing.

the propaganda value is huge.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 26, 2014 - 08:17pm PT
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 26, 2014 - 08:21pm PT
They way the US treats whistle blowers is VERY different than in Ellsberg's time.

The government has been working on its legal theory in an attempt to prove that such whistleblowers intend to harm the US because terrorists can read released information on the web - a standard formerly reserved for actually handing our enemies damaging state secrets. They tried it on Manning but dropped that charge early on.

Intent to harm can carry the death penalty.

This ain't no '70s style weenie roast anymore.

When whistle blowers are treated like terrorists, be very afraid.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 26, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
tvash

but to your original point, how exactly is the Obama Administration stifling "freedom of the press" by wanting Snowden to answer for breaking our laws?
WBraun

climber
Mar 26, 2014 - 08:44pm PT
Jonathan Pollard was a real traitor.

Now the stupid zio traitor Hillary wants have him freed.

Hillary the stupid Democrat zio traitor along with the stupid criminal McCain should both be thrown out of the USA.

No protest from the MSM fools since they're all being told what to report and
they're only focused on Snowden.

These are the same fools Norton follows.

Can't make this stupid sh!t up ......
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 26, 2014 - 09:14pm PT

STFU Braun

you are an ignorant and bitter old man wondering around Yosemite

now go back to worshipping your Lord Buddha
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Mar 26, 2014 - 09:37pm PT
Tvash,

Do you consider Mr. Snowden a candidate for immunity from prosecution under first amendment protection granted to freedom of the press regarding the US Constitution ?

If he had agreed to piss into a bottle as an obligation for employment before he did what he did, does that establish his forfeiture of civil rights regarding freedom to express publicly what he learned, VS. what his employment obligations required him to abide by ?

Those human resources department types do hoe a hard row...

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 26, 2014 - 10:56pm PT
I believe Snowden should be granted immunity from prosecution under the Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989 because that is exactly what he is.

The Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board has already ruled the NSA's conduct illegal and an abuse of its powers. It was also unethical. Snowden did this country an enormous service by exposing that conduct.

We should frog march James Clapper out of his office for lying to Congress under oath about illegal spying on millions of Americans.

ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Mar 26, 2014 - 11:15pm PT
U.S. Plummets in Global Press Freedom Rankings
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-stearns/us-plummets-in-global-pre_b_4770182.html

...but it's not Obama's fault.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 27, 2014 - 01:44am PT
If you folks find yourself seeing Snowden as either 100% hero or 100% villain you are 100% wrong. There is nothing cut and dry about this.

On that we agree for sure, HDDJ.

John
jammer

climber
Mar 27, 2014 - 03:17am PT
Tvash, still waiting for your explanation on how the Obama administration has supposedly attacked the freedom of the press. Details?


^^^Just saw the link about the Snowden thing. If that's all it is, seriously, who cares. I don't really expect to see the Patriot Act get through another administration anyway. It pisses too many of us off. How are those NSA offices faring in the municipalities which cut their utilities, anyway?

Also, am I the only one clued into the fact that the GOP put that thing into effect, and are now the ones screaming for it to be abolished since they no longer have the toy?
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