Why are Republicans Wrong about Everything?

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Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:33pm PT
Tvash wrote: I think we can do better.

We can do better, that is the sad part.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
Dropline wrote: For health imsurance for myself and one child I now spend $25k a year. How does that make sense? How is that affordable?
John M

climber

Mar 18, 2014 - 11:18am PT


It that private or Obamacare....seems way out of line?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:36pm PT
For what its' worth, the biggest bozos I've ever dealt with worked at for profit corporations. The most incredibly effective people I've ever worked with have been at a non-profit organization. They all make significantly below market wages, but doing important work attracts the best and brightest, not the prospect of a new Esplanade and a fake set of tits. This organization has rapidly grown and expanded its capabilities at a remarkable rate - in a fiscally responsible manner - no profit motive required.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:37pm PT
The military, fire departments, non profit advocacy organizations - the list of entities that deliver excellence free of the profit motive goes on and on.


You really don't think there is a profit motive in these organizations?

It's all just semantics. They don't call it profit, but there are plenty of folks who reap big rewards.

The better word is incentives.

(BTW, I know a city fireman who's wife has fake tits.)




Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
John,

I find myself in disagreement with your thoughts on weapons. I don't care how many weapons we send to Ukraine, Ukraine cannot successfully fight a shooting war with Russia. Never.

You could make a case that arming them would greatly increase Russian casualties, and it might be true.

But if I were the Russian commander, giving consideration to invading, then if you announced that you were sending arms, I would invade NOW, before those arms arrived.

And you would have precipitated the exact thing that you purport to want to stop......

US hawks simply have to understand that we do not have the power to stop Russia from acting on it's borders. When it does, we can do things that will ratchet up the stress between Russia and the west, but it is hard to understand how that is in our interest.

And the job of the US Gov't is to act in the interest of the US, not Ukraine or anybody else, and not to put the US at risk in the name of a misguided pre-emptive option.

It is too easy for some clumsy soldier to start firing a weapon or a missile, and turn a cold war into a hot war.

Advocating placing military forces on the borders of Russia seems the height of insanity, with the reaction that will predictably generate, and the risks involved.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
My take on Coz's responses, he is bored and just trolling. Smart guy and I think he has a kind heart, would give you the shirt off his back if you needed it.

I just troll back at him. Type A's.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
The incentive to do important work with excellence is the most effective driver there is. We've got human nature all wrong, here.

That's probably a primary reason why American aren't all that happy or satisfied with their lives. We chase after the wrong things.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
That's probably a primary reason why American aren't all that happy or satisfied with their lives. We chase after the wrong things.

outa the park there tvash!

Yes, as a whole Americans are stupid! Or maybe just ignorant
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
Tvash wrote: That's probably a primary reason why American aren't all that happy or satisfied with their lives. We chase after the wrong things.


So true, when I had my little heart attack I took the "flight-for-life" to Albuquerque, had some time to think. Money, houses, cars, never came to mind, just my wife, family and sense of contentment that I had a good life and if it ended, so be it. Felt good, there was no fear.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:55pm PT
Decades ago, I decided that I was going to live the kind of life where if I died on any given day, I could look back and feel relatively fulfilled about the choices and accomplishments I had in my life. It's worked pretty well for me so far, though the thought of leaving this place and some of the people in my life becomes more bittersweet as the years go on.
John M

climber
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:55pm PT
My dads heart attack changed him too. For the better. He was always a good guy, but something of a hard ass. Okay.. a lot of a hard ass. haha… To a point you have to be, but it is easy to go way past the healthy point. My dad did and he had a major heart attack that nearly killed him. Having grown up in the depression my parents were so determined to be successful, that growing up I thought that we were poor. We weren't rich, but we certainly weren't poor.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
Many of the treatment regimens and drug choices that American doctors use are based on studies and innovations borne from the health care systems of France, Australia, England and other much more "socialized" countries. Stop making generalizations about the greater concepts of free markets and profit motive and look at what it has actually produced: a country where health care is so expensive that tens of millions of its own citizens can't access it...and it is not profitable for anyone to care about it.

You mean the "free market and profit motive" in the United States? The one where medical spending was distorted in WWII to get around wage controls, and has been distorted ever since? The one where if I pay my care provider directly, it's not deductible until it exceeds 6% of AGI, and then only if I have enough itemized deductions to make itemization worthwhile in the first place? You mean the one where if I get employer-paid health care, it's deducted from income from dollar one, regardless of whether I can otherwise itemize? That "free market?"

For the record, I was responding to a generalization about the profit motive, specifically that it had no place in the provision of necessary services. How is it that the generalization that it's out of place is OK, but the generalization that it belongs is not? All I'm hearing as a counterargument to mine is that our current system, in which private parties are free to try to make as much money as they can, is imperfect, and that some allegedly non-profit enterprises are praiseworthy. While I could quibble about how altruistically non-profit an enterprise populated by members of a public employee union might be, the real response is "so what? Neither is perfect. Which one is better, and why?"

Given the predicable response, I'm wasting my breath, so I see no reason to continue. I'll let my critics have the last words for the day.

John
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 18, 2014 - 03:00pm PT
John wrote: For the record, I was responding to a generalization about the profit motive, specifically that it had no place in the provision of necessary services.

It does have a place...I agree a 100 percent John...Most of us are talking about one slice of that pie...the US healthcare system.
John M

climber
Mar 18, 2014 - 03:02pm PT
Given the predicable response, I'm wasting my breath, so I see no reason to continue. I'll let my critics have the last words for the day.

thats a cop out John. but I know how you feel. I've got some tough situations coming up and given the predictable nature of our country and the fact that I am bone tired, I don't know if I have another fight in me.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Mar 18, 2014 - 03:05pm PT
It that private or Obamacare....seems way out of line?

Private. I'm older at 57 so my premium alone, on our company policy, is just shy of $1,200. To include my newborn daughter I have to bump up to the family plan at $2,200 a month. It's nice for everyone else at the company that the company pays half but, as the owner of the company, I end up paying both halves.

I've looked at using Obamacare. Premiums are half but there is no out of network coverage. I'll probably have to go that route shortly though.

As for Cosgrove and his tude, I think you have to have some serious tude to put up something like Southern Belle. Consensus thinkers prolly aren't going to have the moxy to git 'er done, so to speak. I had the good fortune of climbing with Scott for a few days some years back, even got to lead him up a few pitches he had to think about (for about 10 secs). Sure he's opionated. So what? How boring the world would be if we all saw things the same way.

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Mar 18, 2014 - 03:10pm PT
You mean the "free market and profit motive" in the United States? The one where medical spending was distorted in WWII to get around wage controls, and has been distorted ever since? The one where if I pay my care provider directly, it's not deductible until it exceeds 6% of AGI, and then only if I have enough itemized deductions to make itemization worthwhile in the first place? You mean the one where if I get employer-paid health care, it's deducted from income from dollar one, regardless of whether I can otherwise itemize? That "free market?"

These are very valid points, the tax codes for individual healthcare costs are ridiculously inconsistent.

But I see these complexities as yet another reason why single payer is the only sensible solution in the US.

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 18, 2014 - 03:10pm PT
What are a human's basic needs?

William Glasser's Choice Theory identifies our evolved human needs as
survival, love and belonging, freedom, fun (learning and striving for excellence, mainly), and power.

When viewed through this lens, our society has some serious issues. One of them is the accumulation of infrastructure that, once purchased, then proceeds to eat our life - without fulfilling any of the needs above. For example, we 'enjoy' twice the per capita living space than any other nation, on average.

We work long hours, at the expense of our health, well being, and relationships doing so, to accumulate enough to have a fighting chance at some security or, if that's not an issue, to feed a money addiction. The relentless stress of this ever present, looming lack of security is something we don't talk about much in America. As tens of other nations have already proven - that stress is a choice - it doesn't need to be there at all to enjoy a modern lifestyle.

And we do not take care of each other. At all. I once had a job that sent me to Europe once a month. I was having dinner in Brussels one morning, and fellow traveller - a Belgian, asked me if he could join me. We got to talking politics. "One thing I don't understand about Americans is how they can sit back and watch their fellow Americans remain homeless. Here, if one Belgian is hurting, all Belgians feel it."

There are probably homeless in Belgium, too, but his point regarding the stark difference in values between the two cultures is salient.

According to Glasser, our society operates on a punishment/reward model - much like you might set up to motivate lab rats. It does not consider what humans actually value - and so it doesn't make us very happy.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 18, 2014 - 03:13pm PT
"Sure he's opionated. So what? "

Nothing wrong with that at all. This thread would be useless without that diversity.

But you get what you give...ad hominems beget ad hominems.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 18, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
It that private or Obamacare
I've looked at using Obamacare

What the hell are you guys talking about? The insurance under "Obamacare" IS private. There is no such thing as "Obamacare" as if it were something like Medicare, it's a nickname for a law - The Affordable Care Act that mandates you to have health insurance. That insurance is almost exclusively private sector.

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Mar 18, 2014 - 04:18pm PT
MY COUSINS FRIEND GOT AN OBAMACARE POLICY AFTER WAITING ON THE WEBSITE FOR NINETEEN HOURS AND AFTER PAYING THREE TIMES WHAT HE WAS PAYING BEFORE HE GOT THE POLICY IN THE MAIL AND IT HAD A RED HAMMER AND SICKLE SYMBOL ON IT AND IT MANDATED ALLEGIANCE TO DEAR LEADER.
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