Why are Republicans Wrong about Everything?

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Messages 40921 - 40940 of total 45430 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 18, 2014 - 10:18am PT
John...pretty easy to understand...once the bottom line or share holders are the most important thing...decisions will be based on that.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Mar 18, 2014 - 10:20am PT
50. You grew up in America and think you actually understand what real tyranny is.

I remember when the word tyranny used to actually mean something.


...actually, I don't remember. Because I grew up in America.

But at least I know I've never experienced it firsthand.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 18, 2014 - 12:38pm PT
Oh but you do, Dave. Because you've lived for 6 years under Obama. A True Tyrant or a Weak Pathetic Do Nothing. Depending on the day. Or even the moment. Something like that anyway.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 18, 2014 - 01:23pm PT
Bob and HDDJ, I respectfully disagree, obviously. The object of making a profit has given us numerous innovations that bettered every area of our lives, including medicine. I find it quite counterproductive to limit what a medical innovator or service provider receives for a useful innovation or service, while leaving more frivolous innovations or services free to charge as much as they want.

Apparently, we observe different things. In my observations, price controls lead to shortages, because they provide a financial disincentive to supply the good or service whose price we keep artificially low. The last couple of years of the Nixon-era wage and price controls in 1973-74 gave us ample illustration of that. As an additional illustration, the Portal Service has, for years, had difficulty obtaining and keeping good managers, because the difference between the pay of a letter carrier and that of a manager is kept artificially low. Few wanted to take on the burden of management because the extra pay wasn't worth it.

I think, HDDJ, that you observe that people motivated by profit will put their selfishness ahead of their professional duties. Having spent several decades in a profession myself, I can't disagree that some will do so, but my observation is that most will not. The essence of professionalism makes the professionals' desires subservient to those of the client/patient, and most that go through the de facto apprenticeship needed to be a full-fledged professional get sufficiently socialized to respect the professional ethic.

In any case, I'm unaware of any definitive way I can validate -- or invalidate -- my impression of what I've seen, so I'll just have to accept that we disagree.

John
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Mar 18, 2014 - 01:27pm PT
A True Tyrant or a Weak Pathetic Do Nothing. Depending on the day.

It is pretty impressive that one man can be so ineffective and yet so all powerful at the same time.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 18, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
John wrote: The object of making a profit has given us numerous innovations that bettered every area of our lives, including medicine.

Two sides to that John...it has destroy many lives and puts profit over people.

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Mar 18, 2014 - 01:47pm PT
I think that the word "profit" gets a a bad rap.

Every system has incentives. Even "non-profit" organizations have incentives.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 18, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
Philo...JohnM...BobD....

That's a lot of leg humping for your first post of the day!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 18, 2014 - 01:56pm PT
Coz...get some help.

I'm talking about a healthcare system, "socialist" where all have access to healthcare, ALL first world countries have it, we should too. Just an opinion.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 18, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
Coz wrote: Much Love Bob, grow a sack


Funny coming from the seeker.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:00pm PT
John responded
Bob and HDDJ, I respectfully disagree, obviously. The object of making a profit has given us numerous innovations that bettered every area of our lives, including medicine. I find it quite counterproductive to limit what a medical innovator or service provider receives for a useful innovation or service, while leaving more frivolous innovations or services free to charge as much as they want.

This is a great response because it so perfectly illustrates the disconnect between ideological generalizations and reality. I gave you very concrete examples, both anecdotal and fact based, of how relying on profit motive has not and does not achieve the level of health care that our citizenry deserves and you respond with a generalization about the abstract benefits of profit motive.

I agree with you that profit motive can be a good thing...unless it isn't. And so far in this country profit motive has resulted in a lot of amazing advances in healthcare technology but very few in healthcare delivery technology. Nobody is arguing that someone shouldn't figure out how to build a better drug and then make money off of it..it's that they shouldn't figure out how to build a better drug, build a delivery system around it that ensures long term dependence on that drug, spend millions of dollars convincing doctors and patients that this is the drug that they should use and then lobby Congress to both ensure that they are allowed to keep a monopoly on that drug but that the government also won't be able to negotiate down the insane price of it. Those tactics are ALSO "innovations" borne from profit motive and they cause great harm to our nation's sick and our wallets.

Many of the treatment regimens and drug choices that American doctors use are based on studies and innovations borne from the health care systems of France, Australia, England and other much more "socialized" countries. Stop making generalizations about the greater concepts of free markets and profit motive and look at what it has actually produced: a country where health care is so expensive that tens of millions of its own citizens can't access it...and it is not profitable for anyone to care about it.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:04pm PT
Scott wrote: I thought we where good and this was all banter and sh#t talking?

We are good...I just don't agree with your blanket statements about healthcare and people in general. I see people working their asses off at two jobs and barely making it and still can't afford basic healthcare for their kids. The healthcare system in America is broken, the ACA is a step in the right direction.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:06pm PT
but HDDJ, perhaps you miss the real point

that healthcare is not a "right" but rather a privilege that should not be available to all citizens but to those who have the inheritance, assets, income, to pay for it

after all, when people are given free stuff for nothing it hurts others who work hard and pay taxes in addition to fostering a culture of dependency

its all quite simple when you really think about it
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:13pm PT
http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/v9wjc4/fox-news-welfare-academy
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:17pm PT
The republican healthcare system for people without insurance...Go to the ER.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:18pm PT
The problem with the whole health care mess though is the pharm companies, hospital corporations, insurance companies, doctors, and lawyers are all gilding the lilly, which is why the US spends twice as much on health care, as a percentage of GDP, compared to other developed countries. And despite Obummercare, it only gets more expensive each year.

For health imsurance for myself and one child I now spend $25k a year. How does that make sense? How is that affordable?
John M

climber
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:18pm PT
Great post again Hddj.. you are rocking it.

Apogee… I appreciate your kind words, but would you stop with the harassing people.. it does nothing but cause more irritation. It also says that you don't think that others can figure out who is being a dick, and who isn't.

Coz… my experience with our health care system has sucked. Sure I am a fighter, but wouldn't it have been better if I could have spent that energy fighting to get well, rather then having to fight insurance companies to get the care that I needed? There were lots of times when I didn't get care because the insurance company I had refused to pay for it and I couldn't afford it otherwise. This led to long term health issues. I had top quality health insurance. You say we have the greatest system in the world. I say it has serious issues and that other countries do a better job. You seem to gloss over the issues and refuse to examine the realities. I don't know why you do that as you must surely have taken a hard look at the realities in regards to climbing, given the high level of climbing that you have done. I believe that it is fully possible to design a better system then we have right now. One that has both incentives and protections. Other countries sent teams out to examine the best systems in the world and took the best from each of them. Why can't we do that? Instead of just putting our heads down and ignoring the problems all the while chanting "America has the best health care in the world". Except, oops we are falling behind a lot of countries. This is the same issue we have with education. we are resting on our laurels and falling behind. Doesn't climbing give us a good guide here? If you want to be the best, then you have to keep trying and reexamine what you are doing. I'm not saying here that I have all the answers. I am saying that America could do better. I believe in America and Americans.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:19pm PT
The military, fire departments, non profit advocacy organizations - the list of entities that deliver excellence free of the profit motive goes on and on. The much proffered idea that profit is required for either excellence or innovations is an idea that is laughable on its face. Humans strive for excellence because that is what we do.


I read an excellent 3 part series of articles on our health care system in the New Yorker a couple of years back. Apparently, American doctors make twice what their counterparts make in the rest of the 1st world, on average. Drilling down on that, the most voracious gouging occurs in private clinics founded and staffed by docs with the 'new entrepreneurial spirit'. Finally, the clusterf*#k that is our insurance industry adds an estimated 15 to 18% overhead that other 1st world countries simply don't have to pay.

Meanwhile, our health care system ranks no higher than 30th in the world, regardless of which study you go by.

I think we can do better.
John M

climber
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:22pm PT
The military, fire departments, non profit advocacy organizations - the list of entities that deliver excellence free of the profit motive goes on and on.

great point Tvash..
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:31pm PT
And despite Obummercare, it only gets more expensive each year.

true, you can't stop a freight train right away

yet, since the ACA was passed the overall "cost" of the healthcare curve in America is indeed flattening its acceleration, which is the first thing that needs to happen, so far so good

in addition, the ACA is the very soul of Republican trumpeted "free market capitalism" in that it not only removes many of the restrictions for selling health insurance over state lines but also encourages such free marketism by putting more suppliers into more markets,
thereby making them compete for the consumers' business

which is the exact reason why so many Americans are actually getting a little cheaper premiums to pay under the ACA

why it's a conservative's wet dream!

unless of course it was the other political party that made it happen, then it isn't
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