Occupy Wall Street Thread Reposted

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Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 4, 2011 - 03:39pm PT
I'm going to paste that whole dang thread here (if it works) I don't appreciate it when threads get nuked after hundreds of post when the OP has a whim to destroy it. I figure that it's an important phenomena in our society at this point, which is mostly being covered on the net by the people and often ignored in the mainstream press, so I take it as my duty not to ignore it here

So without further adieu

+++++++




cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA

Oct 2, 2011 - 11:37am PT
This could be the start of more to come...



Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area

Oct 2, 2011 - 11:41am PT
What's their beef?


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 2, 2011 - 11:42am PT
I don't know. I've been looking for information. Almost seems bigger in the minds of the participants than anyone else. I have friends in NYC who haven't been saying much about it and they are usually quite active in such things.

It sounds like a worthy protest and I would like to know more details. Best of luck to them... hope it gains momentum.

Marines on Wall Street

http://www.in5d.com/occupy-wall-street-the-marines-are-coming-to-protect-the-protestors.html


Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area

Oct 2, 2011 - 11:43am PT
What are they protesting?


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 2, 2011 - 11:44am PT
y o u


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.

Oct 2, 2011 - 11:44am PT
Chaz, I'm guessing that this will be lost on you, but it seems as if their main problem is the super wealthy putting profits above their fellow humans, and screwing us in the process.

:)


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 2, 2011 - 11:46am PT
and the corporate influence in politics


We the Corporations of the United Stocks of Uhmerikuh


Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area

Oct 2, 2011 - 11:48am PT
So, what do they intend to do about it?



ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn

Oct 2, 2011 - 11:50am PT
clearly, they are protesting The Man


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 2, 2011 - 11:51am PT
Protest, genius.


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands

Oct 2, 2011 - 11:51am PT
They are protesting Wall Street's "obsession" with what they consider outrageous profits,
and all done by manipulating paper that is ultimately "secured" by the work done by the middle class, as in massive mortgage backed derivative trades all backed by common folk making their mortgage payments on time.

They are protesting the rich shareholders against the middle class "struggle".

They are protesting the trillion dollar TARP "rescue" of Wall Street while main street got no bailouts.

ETC


Unlike the Tea Party, THIS citizen uprising is indeed truly and honestly grass roots.

It receives no corporate startup or continuing funding, as the Koch Bros and Tea Party.

This grass roots effort could have real legs, especially as the Class Warfare, the inequity of held wealth in this county, continues to grow and grow and grow, highlighting the us against them divide.


All just my opinion, of course.


Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno

Oct 2, 2011 - 11:52am PT
Shut down Wall Street.





Anonymous, understood to be a loose-knit group of internet activists, tweeted: "We are glad to tell you that mastercard.com is down and it's confirmed."

Another message read: "There are some things WikiLeaks can't do. For everything else, there's Operation Payback."

Mastercard was not immediately available to comment but repeated attempts to load the site met without success.

So-called distributed denial-of-service (DDoS) attacks also appeared to have been launched against PayPal, PostFinance, and the Swedish prosecutors office.

"We can confirm that there was an attempted DDoS attack on paypal.com," a spokeswoman said.

"The attack slowed some payments down for a short while but we remained fully operational throughout."

DDoS attacks, which are illegal in the UK, involve overloading a website with requests so it stops working.

"While we don't have much of an affiliation with WikiLeaks, we fight for the same reasons," the Anonymous group said in a statement on its website.

"We want transparency and we counter censorship...


Similar stategy, different tactics, and coordinated or not...


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 2, 2011 - 11:52am PT
I agree, this is the tip of the iceberg.

These clowns honestly think they can protest their way into the pockets of others. That they can get around taking people to court and proving they have been damaged.

They have no case. They have nothing other than to make themselves nuisance and whine about it in public.

If they were serious, and they really were damaged by rich people like they claim ...then they would have a case. But, unfortunately, they weren't damaged as they claim so they squander their time and ours with nonsense protest.

We have laws and the associated remedies in this country. We should demand the protestors use them just like the rest of us have too.

If they have been damaged as they say. Take the perp to court. Get out of the streets and quit hurting people that have nothing to do with the "so called" damages.


Skip


Timmc

climber
BC

Oct 2, 2011 - 11:58am PT
They appear to be non partisan- thought the right wingers will feel most threatened.
I respect their right to protest and wish them luck.


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
skipt, pull the elephant size tea bag out of your mouth and wake the fuk up.


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:04pm PT
Skip, I can only assume that you believe the protest is about our recent financial woes.

IMO, the last couple of years are the proverbial straw. What I'm reading suggests the vocal support of a major paradigm shift in how we conduct business as usual.


Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:04pm PT
Government simulates cyber attack for training
Reuters


Idaho Falls: The lights went out. Hackers had infiltrated the chemical company's computer network. The firm's own experts ran around from computer to computer trying to fight back and regain control. "We're flying blind," the chief executive of the fictitious ACME chemical company said. The cyber attack exercise was part of a week long training program that the Department of Homeland Security offers to industries to help them learn how to deal with intrusions into their computer networks.

The exercise is carried out in Idaho Falls where the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has programs focused on cybersecurity for industries, in partnership with the Idaho National Laboratory, which conducts nuclear research and also has expertise in the technology used by many industries. The city with a population of about 55,000 is surrounded by potato farms, has an airport with one baggage carousel, and a dairy that still delivers milk to homes. DHS is concerned about growing cyber threats to industries and conducts the training exercise about once a month. The sessions, aimed at raising awareness about how to deal with a real cyber attack, have been attended by representatives of the energy, oil and gas, and transportation sectors, among others.



Maybe I got tangled up in some wash from somehting like this.

Internet wouldn't let me onto three banking sites last night for hours. Other stuff worked OK. SLLoooowwww screens.


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:06pm PT
Skipt...I think they are protesting keeping the wealthy out of their pockets...Activities like exhorbitant credit card interests , inflated grocery costs , energy supplies...Activities like supressing middle class wages...I'm glad we still have the right to protest injustices in America , a constitutional right...RJ


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
We are all tea partiers now.

Our government has let us down.


Skip


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
When the rich get money from the tax payers, it is "good for the economy."

When the tax payers get services from the rich paying an equal share of taxes it is "class warfare" and "socialism."

When skipt posts anything, it is pure idiocy.


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:16pm PT
People do not appreciate this riot nonsense. They want to be left alone and allowed to do business with people they want.

The only monopolies are those granted by government.


Skip


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:18pm PT
It ain't a riot, bro.


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:28pm PT
Why aren't they protesting Obama and Solyndra??? How about GE?

Dodd and Barney Frank?

Eric Holder and Fast and Furious?

Oh yeah, that's o.k......


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:30pm PT
cuz yer a fuking moron, that's why.


Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:30pm PT
Because they can't tell the difference between hating the game, and hating the player.


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:34pm PT
Occupy Wall Street has been dubbed the largest gathering of highly educated people in opposition of something. Or some such moniker.

When wicked smart people feel this passionately about something, it would do us some good to listen to what they have to say, whether we agree or not.

It ain't a partisan issue, it's an issue of respect.


Lolli

Mountain climber
We lose ourselves in work to do and bills to pay

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:35pm PT
We are all tea partiers now.

Our government has let us down.


Skip


That Royal "we" again... isn't that very odd indeed?
I thought Americans were republicans.


Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
What's their solution to the problems they're spotlighting?


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:38pm PT
I thought Americans were republicans.

No, we're conservatives. And hence the revolt known as the Tea Party.


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
A glimpse into the protests;

http://zombietime.com/day_of_fail/

losers. All of them....


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
This ain't a riot bro'

This ain't a matter of rich people "stealing" money ... bro'

If it was you all would have a case. You don't.

I can assure you that point will be brought up over and over.

Because, if it is good enough for victims of violence to have to take people to court in order to seek remedy, then it is good enough for a bunch of rioting bozo's.


Skip


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
cutting edge blurring... a blog from a Sept 17th event... you've out done yourself.


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
The Banksters virtually bring down the world economy, using LOTS of fraud and dangerous techniques in the process, and NOBODY goes to jail and there's hardly any criminal investigation.

Some people non-violently protest that and Hundreds are arrested or cited.

And some of you squarely blame the protesters.

You are cuckholders

The Bankers broke plenty of laws. They are negotiating for immunity from state attorney generals as we speak. Why do that if you are innocent? No accountability, no personal or corporate responsibility. They got HUGE government bailouts and still aren't living up to their side of the bargain by loaning again.

but yeah, all that responsibility speech from the GOP is just for poor people

cuckholders

Peace

Karl



Edit


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:42pm PT
WE are a nation made up of immigrants who have a wide range of opinions on a myriad of topics. Not, as Bluering says, a nation of conservatives.



rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
The Tea Party...Puppets on a string ...A front for the Koch bros cajoling the financially oppressed to protest taxation of the elite...A noble cause...


spidey

Trad climber
Berkeley CA

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:47pm PT
This is a link to their first "official statement"...

http://getgrounded.tv/2011/10/02/grounded-news-first-%E2%80%98official%E2%80%99-statement-from-the-occupy-wall-street-movement/


Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:47pm PT
Bluering,

As a well known supporter of the people in uniform, can you emphatically state they don't feel cheated for their service ? Iraq and Afghanistan were about oil acquisition. even arch Republican Greenspan admitted that on retirement.

Maybe people really getting shot at for principles would like the reason to be valid.

Jim


Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:51pm PT
WEll then, you'll want to see this.

A message from anonymous about the wall street protests.


http://ampedstatus.org/a-message-from-anonymous-concerning-occupywallstreet-and-the-bankers-video/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hOit6CzX6M8

V for President!


Lolli

Mountain climber
We lose ourselves in work to do and bills to pay

Oct 2, 2011 - 12:59pm PT
I thought Americans were republicans.

No, we're conservatives. And hence the revolt known as the Tea Party.


Bluering, do you really mean that? :-D
You're not a republican?

You know, if you don't believe in the republican idea, the Brits do have a monarchy. I guess they're the best choice, the other monarchies would be too... too leftist for you, I'm pretty sure.
The Brits might have people opposing to public protest marches, you'd have a hard time to find that in the other monarchies. It would be considered quite normal to protest against Wall Street. It's called "free speech" over here, you see.
Don't know much about Tonga though, they have a monarchy too, btw.


spidey

Trad climber
Berkeley CA

Oct 2, 2011 - 01:00pm PT

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/30/occupy-wall-street-protests-new-york_n_989221.html

Occupy Wall Street: NYPD Arrests 700 Protesters On Brooklyn Bridge [LATEST UPDATES]
Occupy Wall Street


Hundreds of people protesting Wall Street abuses were penned in and arrested by police Saturday, two weeks into an ongoing demonstration that has become known on Twitter as #OccupyWallStreet.

Centered at Zuccotti Park since September 17, the gathering that began as a call to arms from anti-consumerist magazine AdBusters has shown no sign of a slowdown.

The movement aims to "express a feeling of mass injustice," according to the group’s declaration for the occupation of New York City released Friday. The injustices include the foreclosure crisis, work place discrimination and student loan debt, among a list of others.

As HuffPost reported recently, the movement is less about specific policy demands and more about an expression of opposition to ever yawning economic inequality driven by Wall Street and its allies in Washington.

Calling themselves an American revolution, the protesters say they plan to stay in the park indefinitely.

Greg Basta, an official with New York Communities for Change, said that the organizers were encouraged by police on Saturday to march on the street area of the Brooklyn Bridge, instead of the walkway, then subsequently arrested them for marching in traffic. Two lead organizers, Jonathan Westin and Pete Nagy, were penned in by police. Westin managed to exit the police pen, but Nagy is missing and presumed detained by police, Basta told HuffPost.

"Police say some demonstrators spilled onto the roadway Saturday night after being told to stay on the pedestrian pathway," the Associated Press reported.

Similar demonstrations started Saturday in Washington and Los Angeles.

Shon Botado, a protester staffing a first aid station in New York, told The Huffington Post on Friday that he’s not leaving “until change is made to the financial structure.”



Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.

Oct 2, 2011 - 01:02pm PT
maybe,,,just maybe,, its the start of something good in this country.


khanom

Trad climber
The Dessert

Oct 2, 2011 - 01:03pm PT
Don't hold your breath. Like all dissent in recent times, it will be suppressed.


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.

Oct 2, 2011 - 01:10pm PT
Ron, I sure hope this gains momentum.

Again, it's not a partisan issue, some here have blinders on in regards to the news. It IS NOT a political issue, it's more broad than that.

It seems to be about fairness and accountability and I hope it is about empathy for your fellow man trumping greed.


Lolli

Mountain climber
We lose ourselves in work to do and bills to pay

Oct 2, 2011 - 01:13pm PT
I hope too it does gain momentum.
There's so many who have lost their homes, lost their jobs, have no health care, lost their retirement funds, while jobs have been outsourced and profits and personal bonuses have gone through the roof. They play not only with Americans, they play with world economy too.


spidey

Trad climber
Berkeley CA

Oct 2, 2011 - 01:20pm PT
Here is a look at the protest in action...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fockzr7rXys#!



Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada

Oct 2, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
In Canada, banks are allowed to loan 7 times more than the assets they hold. This is conservative compared to the amounts loanable that only exist through gambling on people paying on time(same as Canada) in the USA.

If free enterprise was truly free, the institution you put in and borrowed your money from would prosper or fail on their ability to perform.



khanom

Trad climber
The Dessert

Oct 2, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
I can't believe so few cops stopped that group of protesters. In some other countries they would have just steam-rolled the cops and kept right on going.

To me this says a lot about our seriousness. I just don't think we have the conviction to really act.

I mean people are getting killed in protests in the middle east and we let one line of a couple of dozen cops stop a column of thousands?

It's embarrassing!!


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 2, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
I haven't seen any footage of the protesters being violent. What is the official justification for the arrests? How many tea baggers got arrested? What if these protesters had shown up with loaded guns?


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca

Oct 2, 2011 - 01:34pm PT
Yeah, it's an inherently profitable business if you don't get super greedy.

A bank sells you a CD for $100,000 and pays 1/2 % interest on it these days. From that deposit they can loan out S1,000,000 of computer generated money for a mortgage and charge 5% on that money. 5% of 1,000,000 is $50,000 and to earn that they only had to give out $5,000 plus their overhead.

Nobody else has that sort of profit margin. It's only by leveraging, fudging and fooling dangerously that they can't make their business a cash cow, which it is, except the CEO don't want to take cuts in their multi-million dollars salaries to pay for bad calls they made trying to make ever greater profits

peace

Karl

Edit


Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area

Oct 2, 2011 - 01:35pm PT
Weschrist,

They didn't listen to the cops. That's why they got arrested.


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca

Oct 2, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
We didn't listen to the British, that's how we got America

Edit


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 2, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
tsssssss!

Seems like the police orders to disassemble a peaceful demonstration contradicts the Constitutional Right to Peaceably Assemble. For reference, that is the one that comes BEFORE the one about guns.

So let me get this straight... conservatives with a history of rants about killing Obama can "peaceably assemble" with loaded guns and signs about niggers, but liberals can't peaceably assemble if it contradicts an order by one person with a gun and pepper spray?


Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno

Oct 2, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
"if they earned less bonus incentives in new contracts than the year before, then they got none of it."

That statement makes absolutely no sense, Cleo.

Did they earn less bonus, receive fewer incentives to sign contracts, or sign fewer contracts?

I have worked for and with consulting engineering firms and have not found your statement (confusing at it is) true for most companies in my industry.


Lolli

Mountain climber
We lose ourselves in work to do and bills to pay

Oct 2, 2011 - 03:07pm PT
The police must have a reason to act, I assume? I assume that not even in the USA a police officer can behave as he pleases? Since it's one of the basic rights to demonstrate in a democracy, wouldn't that be a pretty serious offence, to act without a cause?

It's rather stupid by the police to stop a march if it's peceful. If enough people feel that their justified right to express their opinions are thwarted, it will too easily turn into violence instead. Hopefully numbers will grow, so it will be a real civil rights movement.


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 2, 2011 - 03:14pm PT
All the usual suspects on this thread screamed at the top of their lungs for years telling us that Obama was the answer to all this Wall Street Greed.

We tried to tell them that no politician of any party will ever stop this. That the real answer is to limit government so that they don't have the power to hand over trillions of our dollars to greedy people.

But, they said we were wrong. They said what we needed to do was give more and more power to government. And more money to wall street. After all we were having a global meltdown.

Obama got to even lead the charge.

Now these same clowns want to cover all that up. They want to tell us they have the answer all over again. That what we need to do now, is give more power to government (Gee, who could have predicted) so that they can take other American's stuff without providing them due process.They tell us that it's because the rich didn't act fair.

More to the point: These same clowns don't offer the same due process they demand terrorists get.

These Obama drones flat out do not get it.

They always have an answer. And, it always involves either giving Government all power. Or telling us that anarchy is the only answer.

Give it up, drones.

You look foolish.


Skip


Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Oct 2, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
be afraid be very afrAID

FOR THIS IS A SMALL SAMPLE OF THINGS TO COME

or not.

just load up the 12 gauge and buy a big bag of bisanti rice,



Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada

Oct 2, 2011 - 03:21pm PT
Skip,

What does this have to do with Obama or even Bush ? It has more to do with enforcing the law. The law is not being applied to a sector of criminal behavior that includes a revolving door for lucrative jobs as private pirates or federal overseers.


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 2, 2011 - 03:24pm PT
Gee Jim,

I have been saying that if a case could be made feel free to make it.

I was told over and over on this thread that I didn't understand what I was saying.

Now you back up my point.

Thanks.


Skip


Lolli

Mountain climber
We lose ourselves in work to do and bills to pay

Oct 2, 2011 - 03:27pm PT
It's quite easy to be caught up in the political threads.
I better stop.
:-)


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 2, 2011 - 03:31pm PT
I don't care what we do, as long as we don't interfere with the current tax breaks for the rich... that would be Socialism, or Marxism, or Communism, or something.


Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada

Oct 2, 2011 - 03:31pm PT
Skip,

your points can rise or fall on their own merits.

Unfortunately for your thing about less government, less government (no enforcement of law) is why whole scale rip offs are explained away as just economic bad luck. You know, unsophisticated investors and all the other pablum criminals feed people.


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 2, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
We need the government to determine which Dr's go to jail for removing which rapidly reproducing cells in a woman's body... as long as they don't tell corporations which toxic chemicals they can dump into waterways, which endangered species they can harvest to extinction, what they can pass off as "food," and what taxes they pay... that just wouldn't be fair.


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.

Oct 2, 2011 - 03:37pm PT
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
be afraid be very afrAID

FOR THIS IS A SMALL SAMPLE OF THINGS TO COME

or not.

just load up the 12 gauge and buy a big bag of bisanti rice,


Don't forget the bath salts.





skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 2, 2011 - 03:45pm PT
The people organizing these protests are using people and their passions for nothing more than a fundraising event.


Skip


Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Oct 2, 2011 - 03:46pm PT
that makes sense.


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.

Oct 2, 2011 - 03:47pm PT
OK, here's an example of how I conduct business.

I recently finished a project where I was building a playground for a local nonprofit. We bid on it at a discounted hourly rate. We finished early and below budget. The three of us that were equal partners on the project took the dividend on the bid and gave it back to the nonprofit as a charitable, tax deductible donation.

I made exceptional money despite the intentional pay cut, and managed to give a cool thousand dollars back to the community center.

Not sure if this fits into this conversation, but I suspect it does.


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands

Oct 2, 2011 - 03:51pm PT

+1 for doing business that way Brandon, especially for a non profit


Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Oct 2, 2011 - 03:55pm PT
you can not buy a country,

you have to earn it,


what that means is beyond my comprehension,

niners win again, wtf?

lucy, you have some splainin to do,

ricky retardo

late nite hero for insomniacs, methodists, narco snorters, you name it, we got it at rays chowder house,



skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 2, 2011 - 03:59pm PT
Unfortunately for your thing about less government, less government (no enforcement of law) is why whole scale rip offs are explained away as just economic bad luck. You know, unsophisticated investors and all the other pablum criminals feed people.

Jim,

Your argument rests on the fact you cannot comprehend the difference between less government and no government.

Just because we can agree that government has its legitimate purpose does not mean we have to agree on all things past that point.


Skip

EDIT: Dr. Sprock, white face jive is disgusting....


Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there

Oct 2, 2011 - 04:01pm PT
ST full of smart theory flies out the window when I read the first few of this thread today...

They (the protesters) are calling themselves the 99%.

They are calling for equality.

Good source of information so far has been Democracy Now.

http://www.youtube.com/user/democracynow

For more on the occupy wall street story:
http://www.youtube.com/user/democracynow#p/a/u/0/RSvutn9aNKE





skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 2, 2011 - 04:09pm PT
Brandon is a better example of how to go about helping one another.

Certainly much better than taking rich people's stuff without due process.

I suggest we all take his example. Start making a difference on our own.

We can even have a motto:

WE can DO IT!!! Yes WE Can!!! WE don't need government to tell us what to do!!!


Skip


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 2, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
The people organizing these protests are using people and their passions for nothing more than a fundraising event.

Holy sh#t skipt, yer on a roll! What do you expect, after Fux News had such a great success with Tea Baggers?

Certainly much better than taking rich people's stuff without due process.

How about gambling on derivatives, taking tax payer money to give executives bonuses, and spending millions on lobbyists to make sure nothing changes? That seems to be working for the corporation funded Rupert Murdoch/Fux News "grass roots" Tea Bagger movement.


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands

Oct 2, 2011 - 04:19pm PT
Ok I give up.

Just exactly WHO is behind these protests?

Who is this organized group that rounded up the protestors?

And who exactly are the people or organization that will get this "funding"..

And where does this funding come from?

Honestly, I have been reading everything I can find, and can't see answers to the above.


Edit: one more question: the names of rich people that these protestors have taken money from illegally, as in without due process, please?





weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 2, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
Norton, Michael Moore and Al Gore started it.


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands

Oct 2, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
How did Michael Moore and Al Gore have money taken from them by these protestors without due process?


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 2, 2011 - 04:22pm PT
They didn't. They just hate our freedoms.


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands

Oct 2, 2011 - 04:30pm PT
Ah, got it now, thanks Wes.

I would have thought ACORN was behind the protestors.


Or more likely Anchor Babies.


Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada

Oct 2, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
Skip,

No where did I imply less government equals no government. Where there is less government there has to be less governing and in some instances, no oversight. The con artists always rise to these occasions when an industry is allowed to snow authorities into thinking they are worthy of self regulation.


Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Oct 2, 2011 - 05:02pm PT
blue collar anarchy is on the way


Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there

Oct 2, 2011 - 05:04pm PT
Brandon-

Your post above is exemplary and commendable of your business model. It is, on the face of it, fair and equitable for both parties (though, taking a look from a purely capitalist standpoint you may have walked backwards naked through a corn field)….

You have to understand that this/your standard is not the standard for the current/recent, and past business model…. Greed is.

And that is the problem.

That seems to be the reason for the failure of the American model.
That seems to be the reason for the failure of America.

And that seems to be the reason for the occupy wall street.


Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area

Oct 2, 2011 - 05:08pm PT
Norton writes:

"I would have thought ACORN was behind the protestors."


A.N.S.W.E.R. is.

http://www.answercoalition.org/la/

Same thing.





cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted

Oct 2, 2011 - 05:15pm PT
There is a huge number of Americans who simply don't realize that they've been victimized by Wall Street – that they've paid inflated commodity prices due to irresponsible speculation and manipulation, seen their home values depressed thanks to corruption in the mortgage markets, subsidized banker bonuses with their tax dollars and/or been forced to pay usurious interest rates for consumer credit, among other things.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/occupy-wall-street-drawing-the-battle-lines-20110927


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 2, 2011 - 05:26pm PT
"This Monday, 5pm, in Los Angeles there will be an emergency Mass March in Solidarity with the Wall Street Protesters who were arrested and those brutalized by New York City Police."

I'm going to be occupied by a pork taco around 5pm tomorrow... unless something else materializes.

oh...

http://www.occupytogether.org/


Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno

Oct 2, 2011 - 05:50pm PT
Did any of you click the second link after the link I posted? the one where V explains the goals and strategy of the Occupy WS?



Its labeled as being from Anonymous. and explains the crowd control methods the police will use, the kinds of clothing and equipment you should bring, and how to defend or "de-arrest" someone.

But I didm't see a way to link it seperate.



I kinda think it cute. An organized protest for a decentralized purpose.

Can dissent be coming back? Dissent is a mean social weapon when the right man can realize it. Abbie Hoffman was an ultimate poweer center, because of his sense of humor in planning events. THere were others.

I wonder who is Anonymous ...





nature

climber
back in Tuscon Aridzona....

Oct 2, 2011 - 05:53pm PT
Good luck with the march.

They will get Tooled.

the Pigs will f*#k up.

The pigs won't be held accountable.

same sh#t, different state.

not use to it?



and the fat ones will just shoot you....


TGT

Social climber
So Cal

Oct 2, 2011 - 05:59pm PT
The "stopped clock" got it correct today.

http://www.infowars.com/occupy-wall-street-protesters-call-totalitarian-government-re-election-of-obama/



Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands

Oct 2, 2011 - 05:59pm PT
Chaz, please try to understand that ACORN was a community benefit organization that received Federal Funding, and OccupyWallstreet receives no Federal Funding, and appears to be without "sponsors" or ANY funding.

Do you understand therefore that ACORN is not similar to OccupyWallstreet?


I honestly cannot see how in the world you could come that conclusion.

Perhaps you will list the very specifics of the similarities of their respective origin, organization, funding, and degree of true grass roots spontaneity?


TGT

Social climber
So Cal

Oct 2, 2011 - 06:06pm PT
Norton, this has been in the works for at least two years now. Andy Stern (SCIU), other ex ACORN functionaries and a host of both anarchist and communist organizations have been planning it for several years. There's even audio tape from the planning meetings last year and early this year.



Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands

Oct 2, 2011 - 06:14pm PT
TGT,

Can you direct me to the Communist organizations involved with this protest?

Just a quick link detailing their involvement, thanks.



skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 2, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
It's like Canadians don't read their own words:

No where did I imply less government equals no government.

Here are your words:

Unfortunately for your thing about less government, less government (no enforcement of law) is why whole scale rip offs are explained away as just economic bad luck

"less government (no enforcement of law)"

No Jim. You didn't "imply less government equals no government" you flat out said it in all its glory.


Skip


Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area

Oct 2, 2011 - 06:18pm PT
Norton writes:

"Can you direct me to the Communist organizations involved with this protest?
Just a quick link detailing their involvement, thanks."



Here you go, Norton:

http://www.answercoalition.org/la/


Lolli

Mountain climber
We lose ourselves in work to do and bills to pay

Oct 2, 2011 - 06:22pm PT
nature,
you make it sound as were you a third world dictatorship country. Voices brutally beaten down, as a protest in China.
Do you really believe it will be what happens?


Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno

Oct 2, 2011 - 06:26pm PT
Synergistic, decentralized, unrelated scamming and planning, Skippy.

Timelines converging, but without cellular interactions.


Groups don't know when, but at the right time, North Korea and Syria will add their teams to the internet convergence, strengthening the effect of the DOS that wipes out our silly banker owned coin of the realm, the Chase-Banko'merica electron. No backbone, no bank, no bank, no commerce, no currency (greenbacks) in circulation, no accounting systems in the cloud, for however many days they can keep the run going.

Bankers are insufficient to maintain an electronic currency security, and guaranteeing the success of the nations security that the currency represents. The government is required to be the backer of the currency. Its time they moved into the 21th century and secured our nations new electronic system of everyday trade, by nationalizing it and putting it under the Dept. of the Treasury. If anyone is going to make a percentage tax off of every dollar spent in common trade, it should be the US Government,(that is the ONLY agency that is allowed to lay a general fee of such magnitude) and be used to run the other stuff.. The bankers have appropriated a governments function, and it was not recognised at the time.

By the right people...

((It makes sense if you don't think about it...))


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 2, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
Who is SCIU?

Morons.

There's even audio tape from the planning meetings last year and early this year.

Great, where's the link?

I have audio tape of your mom.


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands

Oct 2, 2011 - 06:42pm PT
Ok TGT and Chaz,

I have read the link, it is simply a news account of the protests from a minor media source, and calls on readers to do likewise.

I don't see anything proving the assertion that Communist are behind the protestors.

The link is not helpful in this regard as it says nothing about that.

But you directed me to you as if it did.

Perhaps you can give me the direct link from a major credible source to read where you personally learned of Communist involvement?


Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada

Oct 2, 2011 - 06:56pm PT
Skip,

To clarify:

Less government can and does sometimes lead to no enforcement of law. That was the intention of what I wrote.

Now, if you're a fan of industrial self regulation, I hope you weren't choking on some of that delicious bagged salad that was poisoning people a while ago...


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 2, 2011 - 07:00pm PT
Jim,

I don't have a clue as to what the hell you are talking about.

First you tell me that what I mean by "less government" means "no regulation" which it doesn't.

Then you tell me that what I mean by "less government" means "self industrial regulation" which it doesn't.

What more can you get wrong?

Honestly, if you want to know what I think you need to ask.


Skip


Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada

Oct 2, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
Ok Skip, I'll ask.

What do you think about the political and social relationships between employees of the SEC and employees of various Wall Street institutions ?
Cintune's link up thread is a good start concerning the journalism of Matt Taibbi. You don't have to like Taibbi, but his writings about Wall Street can be very illuminating.

Jim


Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada

Oct 2, 2011 - 07:21pm PT
I said "if you are a fan of industrial self regulation". That's different than stating you are a fan.


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 2, 2011 - 07:23pm PT
Less Government = Less Cronyism

I think the relationship between Wall Street and Washington is way to cozy.

I support less government that focuses on real regulation and less cronyism.

Repeal Dodd-Frank NOW!!!


Skip


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands

Oct 2, 2011 - 07:32pm PT
Chaz, where is the link between COMMUNISM and the wall street protestors?

TGT?


John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California

Oct 2, 2011 - 07:35pm PT
Less Government = Less Cronyism

Whatever vacuum less government creates will be filled by private enterprise. Private enterprise has its share of cronyism.


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 2, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
Moose,

Your argument gets us nowhere.

If you are doing business with someone you don't like it is for 1 of 2 reasons.

Either you are stupid. Or, you are forced.

And, since I don't think you are stupid, I will ask you who is forcing you...


Skip


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands

Oct 2, 2011 - 07:51pm PT
Chaz, where is the link between COMMUNISM and the wall street protestors?

TGT?


John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California

Oct 2, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
There are plenty of reasons one doesn't have much choice of who they do business with. And lots of circumstance that don't require government to provide the force.

The only options I have for high speed internet are ATT and none.

Is ATT forcing me to use them? Nope.. But my only other choice is dial up, and that aint high speed internet. I don't have an angle on satellite from my house. I could from across the street, but satellite is 3 times as much as I am paying.

So what kind of choice is that?


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands

Oct 2, 2011 - 08:27pm PT
FAIL

as usual


Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California

Oct 2, 2011 - 08:41pm PT
Whatever vacuum less government creates will be filled by private enterprise

Yep. I think you are really onto something there!


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 2, 2011 - 08:48pm PT
There are plenty of reasons one doesn't have much choice of who they do business with. And lots of circumstance that don't require government to provide the force.

The only options I have for high speed internet are ATT and none.

Is ATT forcing me to use them? Nope.. But my only other choice is dial up, and that aint high speed internet. I don't have an angle on satellite from my house. I could from across the street, but satellite is 3 times as much as I am paying.

So what kind of choice is that?

John, do you use cellular access (g3-g4) or do you use cable?


Skip


Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Oct 2, 2011 - 09:02pm PT
wall street and communism?

who is manipulating stock,

china?

no way,

right?

i better say goodbye before i cry


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 2, 2011 - 09:21pm PT
The real reason Dr. Sprock cries is because his whitey tighty ass is showing.

He takes his cue straight from the KKK.

"Let's all put on black face and do the shuck and jive together."

What a dope....


Skip


Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno

Oct 2, 2011 - 10:13pm PT
Some of you guys don't seem to appreciate how unique these protests are. They are similar to the g-whatever protests of the last few years, but his is pointed directly at American big banking business.

Not the Army, not the political conventions, its a modern and recent backlash at what people have perceived as financial risk engendered by the Big money boys, we used to trust a little more...


I kinda like it, its cute.




I will like it even more if it becomes a little MONSTEROUS protest. Its what we need. Wisconsin for Washington DC.


Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Oct 2, 2011 - 10:56pm PT
some people get rich, others eat sh#t and die


it is a generation of swine out there



skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 2, 2011 - 11:05pm PT
Let's all put on black face and shuck and jive in concert.

Come on, Dr. Sprock does it. So, it must be OK.


Skip


Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Oct 2, 2011 - 11:17pm PT
your right, time for an avatar update

howa bout a baby's arm holding an apple, would you like to see that?

google tommy lee


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:20am PT
Dr. Sprock,

Would you like to see your mentor

Google Nathan Bedford Forrest.


Skip


Lolli

Mountain climber
We lose ourselves in work to do and bills to pay

Oct 3, 2011 - 04:02am PT


Credit: Lolli



khanom

Trad climber
The Dessert

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:56am PT
That was then... And Lennon's words aren't as relevant. "They" know how to handle non-violence perfectly. The NYPD has it down.

But how would the react to people who actually stood up to them? I wonder.


FortMental

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:59am PT
Your argument gets us nowhere.

Thank you SkipT for arguments that do! Every "Occupy Wall Street" protester deserves a Congressional Medal of Honor for having the balls to do something no one is willing to do to save American civilization from itself.

You want to kill this movement? Hand every protester a free i-Pad. Guaranteed instantaneous lobotomy.


squishy

Mountain climber
Sac town

Oct 3, 2011 - 08:00am PT
Occupy Sacramento 1st meeting...protest is planned for the 6th...oh yeah!

There were tea baggers and progressives ready to help..







Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY

Oct 3, 2011 - 09:19am PT
That was then... And Lennon's words aren't as relevant. "They" know how to handle non-violence perfectly. The NYPD has it down.

But how would the react to people who actually stood up to them? I wonder.

I wonder what would have happened if when confronted with arrest, the thousand(s) of protesters on the Brooklyn Bridge immediately sat down and tightly locked arms with one another in one huge inseparable knot?

One benefit of the arrests is that although they have been protesting and marching en mass for weeks, the mainstream media has deliberately avoided reporting it. The mass arrests yesterday has got the media engaged and got you all talking about them. That in itself is a measure of success for the protesters. They now have the nation's attention. Let's see what the next step is.


fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention

Oct 3, 2011 - 09:30am PT
Now ordering up the LASD "Heat Ray" to handle the crowds.




The evil one


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 10:20am PT
What are they protesting FOR

ANSWER: Other people's money.

What do they have to LOSE

ANSWER: Their Union benefits


Skip

EDIT: This was in response to Dingus who pulled his post.


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:07am PT
After a few days of banging drums and annoying locals, the Wall Street protests have finally incurred the wrath of New York City. Around seven hundred were arrested over the weekend and Mayor Bloomberg has spoken ominously about clearing the streets. They’ve put on a good show but the general feeling is that they’ve failed to engage a sceptical public. Given the scale of America’s economic and political crises, this is surprising. But then the protesters and their message are doomed to fail. There’s something oddly un-American about both.

Polls show that more than two-thirds of Americans think corporations and banks have too much power. They are correct. For example, liberal commentator Sally Kohn points out that “members of the congressional supercommittee charged with reaching a bipartisan deficit reduction solution have received $41 million from the financial sector during their time in Congress … At least 27 current or former aides to supercommittee members have worked as lobbyists for financial sector interests.” Congress has become a trading floor upon which influence is bought and sold for the price of a campaign donation. It’s about time someone kick started a revolt.

But the Wall Street protesters are the wrong crowd to do it. This photo, of a lady sitting next to a sign titled “Corporate Freeloaders!” while having her photograph taken with an IPad, goes to the heart of the problem. Never trust the political rhetoric of young white hippies: it is undermined by their fabulous wealth and their complete detachment from reality. They travel the world from riot to riot – a cause on every continent, a ring in every orifice. They might have the diet of a North African peasant, but these spoiled brats are professional agitators financed by a generous trust fund.

One thing that is especially irksome about their movement is its pleasure seeking. This protest, like countless others, has been described as having a “carnival atmosphere”. Doesn’t that seem a little less than revolutionary? During the Red Scare of 1919-1920, America was torn apart by union strikes and anarchist bombs. Clashes between labor and nationalist mobs in Cleveland, Ohio were only broken by mounted police. Two people died, forty were injured and 116 were arrested. Compare that grim, cheerless struggle for workers’ rights with this report from the Wall Street protests, which briefly swelled when it was announced that Radiohead would be playing in Zuccotti Park: “While hundreds of people have camped out overnight in the plaza during the two-week old sit-in for social change, an online announcement that Radiohead was en route jammed the plaza. “I actually think it's kind of ridiculous,” said a dreadlocked 20-year-old who identified himself as Pigpen. “The only reason 500 people are here is because they think Radiohead is going to be here.”” Radiohead’s appearance turned out to be a hoax and the crowd dispersed. According to the New York Daily News, “Organizers were red-faced.”

The protesters’ bigger problem is that the Credit Crunch has discredited the Left as much as the Right. Both sides have taken money from Wall Street and both sides have contributed to its financial nosedive. In 2008, Barack Obama gathered more money from hedge-fund and bank employees that he did from any other group. His appointments in office were lifted straight from the very financial institutions he spent the election criticising. Under his administration, the Federal Reserve gave $3.3 trillion in bailout money to overseas corporations without asking what the cash was for. American liberalism has become a byword for monopolistic capitalism. It supports Wall Street and big manufacturers by guaranteeing that they won’t go under. It simultaneously delivers billions of dollars to contractors, public service workers and welfare recipients as part of a strategy that is laughingly called Keynesian. As The Commentator has noted, across the Western World it is the ham-fisted, interventionist Left that is to blame for our economic woes by messing with the natural cycles of the free market. Capitalism doesn’t need to be abolished. It needs to be unleashed.

Compare the aimless Wall Street protesters with the folksy savvy of the Tea Party. The Tea Party was started by ordinary folks who hate the corporations just as much as they hate the government. They have experienced the nightmare of foreclosure, or of a chain store opening across the street and killing their trade. They know that the bailout was driven by financial lobbyists, and they hate every congressman who voted for it. They are what the novelist Chilton Williamson once called, “Country and Western Marxists”. What differentiates them from the Wall Street protesters is culture. They are recognisably American in their ideals and appearance. And they get that the American people don’t want to see the free market curtailed by yet another social democratic contract. Best of all, the Tea Party won’t take to the streets to get what they want. They understand that the path to reform of Wall Street begins at the ballot box. The Tea Party represents an American vision of the future. The Wall Street protesters are a horrible reminder of its past mistakes.


Gary

climber
Desolation Row, Calif.

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:09am PT
What are they protesting FOR

ANSWER: Other people's money.

What do they have to LOSE

ANSWER: Their Union benefits


Skip
This only shows how manipulated and totally clueless you are, skip. Start thinking for yourself with an open mind, stop letting Rush Limbaugh do your thinking for you.


Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:16am PT
A suggestion Skip.

If you are going to revisit posts, it should be for grammatical reasons only. It's frustrating to reply to your ideas when you reconstruct a former post after the fact.

If you have more to add, just post it. Backtracking is like some weird, expedient time machine.


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:17am PT
Barrack Obama got more money from Wall Street and Hedge funds than any other group.

Now he sends his Union Thugs out for another shakedown.

It's time for real Americans to take their country back from stupid trust fund liberals.


Skip


fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:17am PT
Now ordering up the LASD "Heat Ray" to handle the crowds.




The evil one



skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:18am PT
If you are going to revisit posts, it should be for grammatical reasons only.

Asswipe,

As much as you want to enact your slave holding mentality it won't fly.

You don't make the rules.


Skip


JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:24am PT
They've come by the hundreds all accross America to protest Wall Street, and they wonder why the world doesn't stop what we're doing and immediately do what they ask, whatever that is.

Sorry -- been there, done that. I was a student at Berkeley from 1969-73. We thought we had a monopoloy on intelligence, and couldn't understand why we weren't running the world. It never occurred to us that our observation about who wasn't running the world might contradict our assumption about our superior intelligence.

John


Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:26am PT
Name calling....

Any way, If you want your logic taken seriously, don't be revisionist.

Slave holding mentality ? Huh? You rightly called me on not being clear. Can you accept your written imperfections ?


CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:30am PT
You have to understand that this/your standard is not the standard for the current/recent, and past business model…. Greed is.

And that is the problem.

That seems to be the reason for the failure of the American model.
That seems to be the reason for the failure of America.

And that seems to be the reason for the occupy wall street.

This is a very naive argument. First of all, do you really think greed just came into existence in the last few years? The problem is that the Government has completely distorted the incentives in the markets. In regards to the financial industry, Banks used to take in money from depositors, and loan it out to people who used it to buy houses, etc. They were VERY careful about who they loaned it to, because it was their money. THAT was greed! What we have now is a system where Banks don't even want deposits, because they can borrow money from the Treasury that they don't have to insure, at near zero rates, and then buy Treasury bonds with it. Banks still make some home loans, but they are quickly stamped with the Government's seal of approval so they are insured by Uncle Sam. Who cares what happens to them after that? It's no longer their money.

The problem is not greed. The Founding Fathers knew enough about human nature to factor that into our system. The problem is distorted/mismatched incentives.


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:32am PT
Nicholas D. Kristof offers advice:

http://video.nytimes.com/video/2011/10/02/opinion/100000001084589/advice-for-the-wall-street-protesters.html

Thanks


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:34am PT
Jim,

I really don't care what you think.

Honest, I don't.

You hound and hound me. You demand I respond to your incessant nonsense. All the while you put words in my mouth I don't say.

It is ridiculous.

BTW, how much did you pay in American Income tax last year?

Why is it you think your opinion is worth more than those who do?


Skip


Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:40am PT
Skipt, awesome essay. I especialy liked all that stuff about "natural cycles of the market" and "unleashing capitalism". That last up natural cycle we had back in 08 was pretty sweet but then the liberal interventionists must have done something and that why we are riding this natural down cycle which isn't so sweet but we now know that unleashing capitalism once again will cure everything.

I did notice one small typo which i took the liberty of fixing for you:

Compare the aimless Wall Street protesters with the folksy suckers of the Tea Party.

your welcome - any time i can be of help



Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:41am PT
Skippy:



WOW: That post above about how lame and un American and Un-Tea-party the Occupy wall Street guys are set me to wondering where it came from.

I copied the first paragraph and looked for exact matches. On first blink, it looks like that shows up 266,000 times, in all manner of blogs, news services, forums and other places where people read bullshit propaganda.

That is the OFFICUIAL ANSWER to the Occupy Wall Street, and so far, I dom't even see an atribution. Where did the original verbiage come from, and who?




Edit: I got it down to abou 16 sites, although that thing looks plagerized about 10 times...


fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:42am PT
Turn them to french fries:


http://sheriff.lacounty.gov/wps/portal/lasd/!ut/p/c4/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3hLAwMDd3-nYCN3M19LA0_nEDPvMJMAQ39jA_2CbEdFAFVdgp4!/?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/wps/wcm/connect/lasd+content/lasd+site/home/home+top+stories/aid+unvealed


I worked a couple of shifts with Bob Osborne.



The evil one


Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:43am PT
Hound you ? That's funny.

How about reply to you and try to understand your point of view. If I thought you were a joke,I'd just ignore it. I've said many times that I simply like good ideas, be they right or left.

What would be appropriate ? getting all thin skinned and thinking you are hounding me and I should be afraid because I got called "asswipe" on an internet forum ? Or Just rolling with it like in real life.


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:44am PT
Jim,

Go away.


Skip


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:45am PT
It doesn't matter who it came from, or how accurate or informed it is. It only matters that skipt and clones BELIEVE it and spread it. Religitards are good at spreading propaganda without any attempt to understand or validate it. That's why Repugnikunts pander to them.


Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:45am PT
Also I didn't demand you respond to my incessant nonsense. You asked me to ask you for your answer.


Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:48am PT
Occupy Wall Street protests spread across U.S. to Boston, Los Angeles and Chicago

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2044704/Occupy-Wall-Street-protests-spread-U-S-Boston-Los-Angeles-Chicago.html

— The demonstrations have already spread to Los Angeles, Boston, Chicago, Denver and Seattle - and the arrests of 700 people in New York have only strengthened protesters' resolve.




How many of them fry units you think you got, Fattfried? Looks like you may need to put in another order. Wonder when the Wave reaches Boise?

We were on the trailing edge of the 60's and 70's, too.


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:49am PT


Occupy Wall Street: A Sad Display
The occupation and threats amount to little more than mob rule, writes Jonathan Hoenig

By JONATHAN HOENIG

There's something rather sad about the "Occupy Wall Street" protests which have been underway for over two weeks in New York, Chicago, Boston and other major US cities.

In earlier generations, civil disobedience like the Montgomery Bus Boycott or women's suffrage movement used nonviolent protest to combat blatant violations of individual rights.

The dreadlocked bands of youth camping out in New York's Zuccotti Park, however, are hardly Freedom Riders. Their demands range from "ending the modern gilded age" to "ending joblessness," although as an asterisk on their "Declaration of the Occupation notes, "these grievances are not all-inclusive."

The blog n+1 reported proposals ranging from a lifetime guaranteed income to the removal of the New York's iconic Wall Street bull sculpture.

On the heels of the "Occupy Wall Street" demonstrations in New York, protesters have gathered in downtown San Francisco. WSJ's Geoffrey A. Fowler reports.

And while it would be easy to write off these so-called protests as diffuse expressions of general twentysomething malaise, as they have grown, they have developed into something more dangerous: Organizing and promoting an "occupation" distinguishes this effort as that of a mob.

There is no right to disrupt traffic or occupy other people's property, no matter if it's one lunatic individual or the 99% of the public protesters claim to represent. What's so lamentable about "Occupy Wall Street" isn't even their collectivist goals but the means by which they go about to achieve them: force and intimidation.

Inspired by the "Occupy Wall Street" demonstrations in New York, some 100 people gathered Sunday outside the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago to protest inequities in the nation's financial system. WSJ's Jack Nicas reports.

Merriam-Webster defines "occupy" as "to take or hold possession or control of," which is exactly what the protestors have done. Just yesterday, 700 people were arrested in New York blocking cars on the Brooklyn Bridge. "These are our streets, we will occupy them" proclaims the Chicago group's fliers. Yet it's not the ideas they hope will persuade onlookers, but their obstruction. For more than two weeks they've camped out in front of the Chicago Board of Trade and other financial centers, banging drums, barking demands and disrupting people working in neighboring offices.

Capitalism, the system "Occupy Wall Street" so feverishly wants to bury, operates on the principle of voluntary trade, not occupation and threat. Capitalism treats men not as sacrifices for the public good, but as independent individuals with their own lives. From the professional on the trading floor to the kid selling lemonade, investors know that if you want something from someone else, you can't simply demand it by occupation, you have to trade for it, just as others must trade with you.

That's the justice protestors are seeking to destroy.


Skip


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:49am PT
You asked me to ask you for your answer.

skipt, you did, honest. I knew it was a load of sh#t when you asked, but I let Jim pursue it without saying anything.

Jim, you are wasting your time. skipt has proven countless times, beyond any shadow a doubt,that he is incapable of providing any form of useful contribution.


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:51am PT
.
.
.
.
.




http://www.occupytogether.org/


,
,
,
,
,
,


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:53am PT
Jim,

The reason I had to tell you to "ask me" is because you kept putting words in my mouth.

You flat out wouldn't stop. So, I offered you a rhetorical remark about how to have a legitimate discussion.

If you want to know what I think just ask me. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Evidently you didn't quite get the concept.

Here is proof: You finally asked me and I answered you. Unfortunately, you have yet to respond to it. Instead, you changed the topic and started lecturing me on what posts I can respond to and how.

What to do.....


Skip


fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:54am PT
I like mine extra crispy:

http://sheriff.lacounty.gov/wps/portal/lasd/!ut/p/c4/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3hLAwMDd3-nYCN3M19LA0_nEDPvMJMAQ39jA_2CbEdFAFVdgp4!/?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/wps/wcm/connect/lasd+content/lasd+site/home/home+top+stories/aid+unvealed



The evil one


Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
Well Skippy, I am surprised!

You can't seem to find ANYTHING to post that sounds at all positive.

And every word you've posted in those long rips of somebodies editorials sounds
Gene

climber
Oct 4, 2011 - 03:45pm PT
Will Karodrinker now please nuke his string of OCCUPY threads?

Appreciated,
g
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 03:47pm PT
hell yea Karl. off with their heads.
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 03:48pm PT
gene,

no.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2011 - 03:51pm PT
I have to post the rest of the thread in a couple posts cause the whole thread doesn't fit in a post

++++



Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
Well Skippy, I am surprised!

You can't seem to find ANYTHING to post that sounds at all positive.

And every word you've posted in those long rips of somebodies editorials sounds like its written by exactly the same group, maybe even the same guy! Same voice, same command of imagery and vocabulary, same illustration and examples.

All Same-same. Sounds like a professional paid to produce propaganda, not exactly unbiased even a little.







Here is the biggest thought you need get in your head.


Even the largest fires begin very small and weak.



This is a small fire, and its not got its theme worked out, the signs and slogans are still being devised. But this could catch, the soil is dry and the people are inflamed at corporate/political bullsh#t.

(Can a corporate-persona attend a riot?)

The Tea Party look old and dispassionate compared to these guys.














Burn baby, burn!


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:01pm PT
Capitalism, the system "Occupy Wall Street" so feverishly wants to bury, operates on the principle of voluntary trade, not occupation and threat. Capitalism treats men not as sacrifices for the public good, but as independent individuals with their own lives. From the professional on the trading floor to the kid selling lemonade, investors know that if you want something from someone else, you can't simply demand it by occupation, you have to trade for it, just as others must trade with you.

That's the justice protestors are seeking to destroy.


Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:05pm PT
Occupy Wall Street: A Sad Display
The occupation and threats amount to little more than mob rule, writes Jonathan Hoenig

By JONATHAN HOENIG
Skipt, it's rude, and violates copyright, to post an article without full attribution of the source, and a link. Or maybe you do not respect private property rights.


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Hoenig

Jonathan Hoenig (born September 10, 1975) is managing member at Capitalist Pig hedge fund and a regular contributor to Fox News Channel's Cashin' In.

Really, a contributer to Fux News? I never would have guessed.


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
Anti-Wall Street Protests Spread to Other Cities
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x5014162
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/04/us/anti-wall-street-protests-spread-to-other-cities.html?hp
http://www.occupytogether.org/

Edited on Mon Oct-03-11 02:35 PM by RedEarth
Source: NYT

Three weeks into a protest against corporate abuses and Wall Street power that has led to hundreds of arrests in New York, similar demonstrations are popping up in other cities across the country with the aid of social media and with the same loosely organized structure as the original demonstration.

On Monday, protesters were camped out in Los Angeles near City Hall, assembled in front of the Federal Reserve Bank building in Chicago and marching through downtown Boston to rally against corporate greed, unemployment and the role that financial institutions have played in pushing the country into its continuing economic malaise.

........


The groups have committees responsible for welcoming, security, transportation, art and the news media. Each has its own Google group. The arrests Saturday of more than 700 protesters on the Brooklyn Bridge for blocking the roadway have energized the movement, and on Monday, new protests were planned for other cities, including Memphis, Tenn.; Allentown, Pa.; and Hilo, Hawaii, according to organizers.

Later this week, rallies are scheduled for Detroit; Portland, Ore.; Minneapolis; and Baltimore, as well as in cities that rarely see such civil disobedience — Mason City, Iowa; Mobile, Ala.; Little Rock, Ark.; Santa Fe, N.M.; and McAllen, Tex., according to Occupy Together, an unofficial hub for the protests that lists dozens of demonstrations planned for the next week, including some in Europe and Japan.



When the rich, elite 1%, immorally, unethically, and greedily abuse the rest of us 99%, this is what happens.

Wealth and opportunity should be for everyone, not just for the rich, elite 1%. The rules of the game should not favor the 1% only and screw everyone else. Nor should our government be all about protecting the rich elite 1%.

This is supposed to be a government, a democracy, for the people and by the people. Right now it isn't. I think the people want to see it changed equitably, to just and fair.


What is GOD's advice to the rich elite of the World towards the rest of us, and to the poor of the World?

There is your answer.

There is a right and wrong here.


Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:09pm PT
What differentiates them from the Wall Street protesters is culture. They are recognisably American in their ideals and appearance.

So true and i'm glad someone finally had the courage to point this out. I mean, how can anyone take seriously those who must surely be trust funders easily identifiable by nose piercings and dreadlocks? With looks like that, it really dosn't matter what they say.

We went through this nonsense a decade or so ago when a bunch of hackey sack playing, bongo druming grannies and mere kids had the nerve to claim that we were logging off our valleys at what they claimed to be a "unsustainable rate", as if they somehow knew better than industry. Well really all you had to do was look at them and compare to the hard working boys with the saws to know that they had no credibility. Now decades later the proof is in the pudding.

remember, if they look funny, they probably are


Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
Capitalism, the system "Occupy Wall Street" so feverishly wants to bury, operates on the principle of voluntary trade, not occupation and threat. Capitalism treats men not as sacrifices for the public good, but as independent individuals with their own lives


Who, John Galt? You quoting Ayn Rand, Skippy?


Attribute the blatant propaganda, Skippy, we like to see the names of the propagandist. Good to know somebody still makes a living the old way. By Lying about motivations and reality.







Bitching about Capitalists crying over the unfair tactics. That's rich, because they always call "the body of the people" unfair. Corporate-persons are a fiction used to spread money and influence around without naming the actual man/men who are doing it.

But corporations cannot deal with the body of the people well, the people are usually too big to bribe with cash, and that is the trade of capitalism. The bigger the capitalist and the bigger the problem, the more he wants to solve problems by throwing money at politicians.


These guys are going to be spending a LOT of Corporate Donations To Political Events and Candidates this coming year. IT's their answer to the Morality of Human Needs.

Lets see if Americans are all THAT Stupid, STILL.


Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
Ah, more revising of a post. OK:

Naturally I paid no American income tax because I am a Canadian.

Why do I have an opinion about the American economy and the recent unpunished criminal behavior of Wall Street operators equal with those that do pay American tax?

Because our North American economies are intertwined and what happens in Canada, The United States and Mexico affects everyone. The recent run at the communal cash in the marketplace that is considered private by those playing with it, reminds me of hero Reagan's blind eye to the opportunities presented by American Savings and Loan institutions. That went well for the depositors.

Now there it a nascent protest against similar behavior and the bitter feelings of being scammed are not washed away by a resurgent economy like in the 80's. This won't go away.

So why should I care as a foreigner ? Because globally and particularly for Canada, the American economy can pull everyone down like the Titanic. I have many friends who's real savings and collaterally their investment earnings were reduced by half after the sub prime mortgage scam hit the fan.

It can be assumed it was their own fault for playing stocks but only if there was honest representation from Lehman Bros.and all the other blood suckers.



weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:16pm PT
Bruce, top quality sarcasm! Nice work.


blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:20pm PT
Skipt, it's rude, and violates copyright, to post an article without full attribution of the source, and a link.

I agree it's rude, but if it violates copyright without full attribution, methinks it violates copyright with attribution as well.


Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
I did not put words in your mouth. Remember I said "if you believe..." not you believe.



skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:26pm PT
When the f*#k are you going to stop this stupid nonsense, Jim?

I quoted what you said.

Here it is:

It's like Canadians don't read their own words:

No where did I imply less government equals no government.

Here are your words:

Unfortunately for your thing about less government, less government (no enforcement of law) is why whole scale rip offs are explained away as just economic bad luck

"less government (no enforcement of law)"

No Jim. You didn't "imply less government equals no government" you flat out said it in all its glory.


Skip

More to the point:

You asked me a question. I answered.

You are a whack job.


Skip


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:34pm PT
skipt has got to be used to it by now.


Lolli

Mountain climber
We lose ourselves in work to do and bills to pay

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
Trolls have to be quite oblivious to such trifles.


Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:38pm PT
Shouldn't skipt and his fellow travelers should be beating up us Canadians for inspiring the whole thing? The 'movement' was started by Adbusters Media Foundation, which is based in Vancouver.


Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
Yeah, the American Billionaire Capitalist is ever so concerned that I remain an independent individual that they want to outlaw unions, collective bargaining and the efficacy of the vote in American Politics. Each of these things is under attack because they are effective defenses against the Big Businessman's abuse of wealth and power.

Nothing unusual about abuse of wealth and power, its what it's called to do.

For instance: Remember Parker Bros Monopoly? Once you got control of the Monopoly board, do you remember what happened to the other players? How much did it matter any more if you Passed Go, and if you got that $200.00 bucks? When you could charge $2000 bucks for the luck of the next necessary spin, did circling the board (I.E. personal-production) matter to you?

No, you began getting your money (living) through the destruction your investments made on the other players having to associate with you and your various properties. If you could strip $2000 bucks off a player just before he passed Go, that was satisfaction indeed for the holder of Park Place Properties!, and it made the $200 tax return look pretty feeble...


Monopoly was popular because it taught people about the causes of the LAST Great Depression. We need to learn from it still. A great simulation game, one of the best since Chess.






You're losing Skippy. Never bet against the Body of the People when they are looking for respect and decency from an oppressive overling. In the end, even a billionaire is only a single man who cannot forever deny the body of the righteous revolutionaries who form the host he feeds on. They can scratch him off like a dog does a flea.

What billionaire doesn't depend on the society around him to feed, clothe and care for him? Every billionaire depends on his society exquisitely for everything he craves as human being, and he should damn well pay as a big share of expenses as we do for his big prerogatives. From he who great things have been granted, great things are expected. Is that a paraphrase?

The riche man ain't THAT different, ain't half that special when it comes down to it, when he is dead he will be missed less than he thinks. One more dead rich man ain't going change much, really. He wealth will remain and finally "Trickle Down" at least a little ways.


Occupy Wall Street.

The more I hear it, the better the Idea sounds.


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
Chase bank recently donated 6 million to the NY police department. Wonder if that makes them even more inclined to protect Wall Street from inconvenience?

http://www.jpmorganchase.com/corporate/Home/article/ny-13.htm

Edit


Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:46pm PT
Funny how these dependable right wing shills suddenly see "mob rule" and "intimidation by thugs"...but when the Teahadists were showing up to public events armed to the teeth, well they were just "real Murcans" exercising their 2nd amendment rights.

Intimidation by armed right wing lunatics? No way!! Not those freedom loving, keep yer government hands off my medicare, patriots.


TGT

Social climber
So Cal

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:49pm PT
John Moses Browning has a solution.



















































































Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
^^^ Man ain't that the truth. When those Arizona racists showed up at the Obama rally with guns some conservatives were virtually saying prayers over their holiness, lol.

DMT


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:51pm PT
Shouldn't skipt and his fellow travelers should be beating up us
Canadians

I would rather have you pay American Income tax so you can put your money
where your big mouth is.


Skip


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:52pm PT
If the NYPD cops are as noble as they were portrayed to be during 9/11, they would use that $4.6 Million to help the people.

They won't. They are now nothing more than corporate body guards.


Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
Overall Canadians pay higher taxes than the US, and are mostly glad to do so. Taxes buy us not only a stable economy, but civilization.


Piton Ron

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:54pm PT
Browning had some world beater designs.

The potato digger wasn't one of them.


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
The left simply cannot make up its mind if we need totalitarian government
or anarchy.


Skip


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
Overall Canadians pay higher taxes than the US, and are mostly
glad to do so. Taxes buy us not only a stable economy, but
civilization.

Sounds like you have it all covered. Feel free to comment on Canadian
politics to your little hearts content.

When you pay American Income tax we will take you seriously on ours.


Skip


Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada

Oct 3, 2011 - 12:57pm PT
We do put our money where our mouth is. We are free to invest in the American economy as Americans are free to invest in ours. We also are bound to and comply with NATO obligations.


Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:03pm PT
There is ever a conflict of interest within the Police between the RichMan/Corporations and the Poorer Masses. One seems to be served far better overall.

If a culprit cannot be found, he will be assigned. We have to presume the new wave of "enhanced interrogation" and the Newly instituted enhanced "Judicial Execution" policies will greatly expedite this assignment policies.

So far neither Awalaki nor Osama have protested their sentence or its execution. This is an improvement over Saddam and that whole Kangaroo Court process that Iraq and US(A) used to use. Extraordinary Extradition and Guantanamo, they are expensive. So formal, and the prisoners always have the potential of talking, if they should live so long.

Shooting an indicted Criminal in the head on sight is ever so much more efficacious. ""Trial" THAT, Perp!"







skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:04pm PT
What rox is saying is that Obama and his paid thugs are totalitarian
socialists.


Skip


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:06pm PT
Obama will save us, you'll see!




TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:08pm PT
watching with interest...not this thread, the event.


not sure if this link has been posted:
http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution


TGT

Social climber
So Cal

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:08pm PT
Browning had some world beater designs.

The potato digger wasn't one of them.

Yep, but the other really good photo of him with his face recognizable is behind a water cooled .50

Too much collateral damage.


Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:11pm PT
But the Wall Street protesters are the wrong crowd to do it. This photo, of a lady sitting next to a sign titled “Corporate Freeloaders!” while having her photograph taken with an IPad, goes to the heart of the problem. Never trust the political rhetoric of young white hippies: it is undermined by their fabulous wealth and their complete detachment from reality. They travel the world from riot to riot – a cause on every continent, a ring in every orifice. They might have the diet of a North African peasant, but these spoiled brats are professional agitators financed by a generous trust fund.

One thing that is especially irksome about their movement is its pleasure seeking. This protest, like countless others, has been described as having a “carnival atmosphere”. Doesn’t that seem a little less than revolutionary? During the Red Scare of 1919-1920, America was torn apart by union strikes and anarchist bombs. Clashes between labor and nationalist mobs in Cleveland, Ohio were only broken by mounted police. Two people died, forty were injured and 116 were arrested. Compare that grim, cheerless struggle for workers’ rights with this report from the Wall Street protests,


Pure idiocy.

The Occupy Wall Street Protesters have professed their non-violence.
The Occupy Wall Street Protesters are plugging into the tradition of non-violence civil disobedience. They are not throwing bombs into offices, doing targeted assassinations, or burying people alive and executing children like the Bolsheviks.
Instead of shooting people in the face, they are singing songs, chanting, marching. This is to their credit.


Furthermore, the protesters look more like average people than the tea party buffoons. The blandness of the average midwesterner is a scary visage to a New Yorker. We cringe at the thought of folks like that ... they look like zombies. Image 2,000 of your 'average American' walking en mass across the Brooklyn Bridge: we'd think we were being invaded by alien body snatchers.


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:14pm PT
The Tea Party is a better description of a group committed to non violence.

They understand completely they have the numbers to throw the Obama cronies out and install a real constitutional government.


Skip


TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:15pm PT
keep on trollin skip


Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:16pm PT
So did the Patriot act One(?), or Two(?) give the government the right to kill "fugitives" who are ACCUSED of crimes (but not in a court), in foreign nations, on sight, with a killer hit team?

Just queerious, if you understand. So how far does THAT go? Some people are calling the Occupy Wall Street people Economic Terrorists...

...I used to think that kind of thing was illegal, for like the last 700 years? Way back when the King of England (GOD Bless He's Dead!) used to pull that sh#t against the Irish and the Scotch.


But so was "Enhanced Interrogation" AKA "cruel and unusual punishment" without a Trial. Ah, the old days, of Terror Trials. "DUNK HER!"(Waterboard him!). "If she dies, she was innocent!"(If he dies he was guilty!)

Naw, none of them is innocent, they are ALL guilty, including the living. IF they wern't guilty, we wouldn't have shot them, would we? What might these guys have said had they been allowed to live until a PUBLIC TRIAL COURT ordered their execution? Who cares; It'd just add to the confusion and the people (History) got no right to know. Anyway, you sue for your rights afterwards, nobody respects them before the court says to, and that puppy ain't gonna testify, he-he.





SkIPT:
actually Skippy, you are right as far as you go about me calling down Obama.

I don't like what is going on, the extension of the Bush Policies is far too seamless.



Human rights are being violated and ignored at the same time. I don't like it for sh#t when my nation goes Fascist. Look it up, Fascism is always associated with big business getting together with government to tighten the controls on society, production and "capital" (Freedom, Power and Wealth).


I think it sucks "S H I T B I G" frankly.

What do you think?


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:16pm PT
This photo, of a lady sitting next to a sign titled “Corporate Freeloaders!” while having her photograph taken with an IPad, goes to the heart of the problem.

I'm betting that iPod was purchased fair and square with money the holder earned... which is more than can be said for most of Wall Street.




The Tea Party is a better description of a group committed to non violence.

Which is why they show up with guns, you know, cuz they are peaceful.


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:19pm PT
keep on trollin skip

If these violent protest clowns had the numbers behind them they would just show up at the polls and vote people in who agree with them.

They don't. So they make noise and throw garbage all over the place. And, hope beyond hope that the Canadians show up to defend them.


Skip


Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:21pm PT
That would be nice. We've certainly helped out before.


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:24pm PT
How have they been violent Skippy? Let me know, bro.


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:26pm PT
How have they been violent Skippy? Let me know, bro.

Brandon,

Have you ever been snipe hunting?


Skip


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:27pm PT
Not sure what that means, bro.


fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:27pm PT
"Release the hounds"


Montgomery Burns




The evil one


Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:28pm PT
Same thing can be said of the tea partiers, skippy.


If htey had the numbers at the pools, Sarah Palin would be President.


How many are there Occupping Wall Street, and what way are they going to vote. How committed are they?


And how big is the fire of protest gonna spread in the next year?

You GROW your enemies, the more you oppress him, the stronger he becomes...

Do you think the Right is that smart to understand what that means? ...Not so far...



Big turnouts is always good for the Democrats.



Burn Baby, Burn!


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
Brandon,

Have you ever been snipe hunting?

Not sure what that means, bro.

That is classic.


Skip


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
If [they] had the numbers at the [polls], Sarah Palin would be President.

What Rox is saying is that it was disaffected Democrats that gave the Republican party a historic 65 seat win in the house. Another historic win in state houses and governorships all over the country.

On a side note: Hey Rox,

Is yours what they teach you when you learn how to cypher and do your numbers in sewer architect school?


Skip


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
You're classic.

Googled it. It's a turn of speech I hadn't heard before, kind of like the term open minded applies to you.

You seem incapable of hearing anything that doesn't align with the talking points you shoot up. Face it, you're addicted, bro.


blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
Don't give the police an excuse to kick your arse. Remember, they like to do it and they're getting paid to do it. (And if you know what average NY cops make, you'll see why they'll gladly kick arse even if they didn't think it was so much fun.)


malabarista

Trad climber
Portland, OR

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:35pm PT
I'm somewhat sympathetic, we've all been robbed by these powers -but this kind of protest is just too much "I'm the victim" mentality for me. "We the people" have been robbed indeed, but I wonder where the outrage should really be directed. We bought into and continue to buy into this system. This kind of protest is like asking the robbers to save us. If people stop buying into it, and stop expecting that it will ever repay them for the theft, that's what will change it.

"Friends are more valuable than money"


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
^^^Word^^^^

Wonderfully said.

If you don't mind, may I add: "Cronyism takes two sides"

Thank you.


Skip


atchafalaya

Boulder climber

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:44pm PT
"they have the numbers to throw the Obama cronies out and install a real constitutional government"

What is a real constitutional government?


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:47pm PT
What is a real Constitutional Government?

Start here:

http://www.amazon.com/Liberty-Tyranny-Conservative-Mark-Levin/dp/1416562850


fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:51pm PT
"Greed, for want of a better word, is good"

Gordon Gekko




The evil one


Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:57pm PT
It has surely not escaped skipt's attention that the Occupy Wall Street peaceful patriotic unarmed demonstrations started on September 17th, which is your Constitution Day. True Americans.

One of the fatal flaws of the tea party/right wing movement is that it denigrates its opponents as not being "true" or "real" Americans, both implicitly and explicitly. The right wing has no monopoly on patriotism, although it's big on jingoism and cheap nationalism.


fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention

Oct 3, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
Oooooops, corrected.

"What good is money if one cannot use it to oppress his fellow man"

Montgomery Burns


The evil one


CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA

Oct 3, 2011 - 02:01pm PT
When the rich, elite 1%, immorally, unethically, and greedily abuse the rest of us 99%, this is what happens.

Wealth and opportunity should be for everyone, not just for the rich, elite 1%. The rules of the game should not favor the 1% only and screw everyone else. Nor should our government be all about protecting the rich elite 1%.

This is supposed to be a government, a democracy, for the people and by the people. Right now it isn't. I think the people want to see it changed equitably, to just and fair.

Our country is a democracy, but it was not founded on redistribution and entitlements. Tell me where that is guaranteed in the Constitution? Opportunity exists for everyone - but wealth must be earned. This is a capitalist economy - if we want prosperity, we have to allow capital to flow to where it can be the most productive. That means Government cannot pick favorites anymore, and cannot redistribute wealth for the sake of social engineering.


atchafalaya

Boulder climber

Oct 3, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
Skipt, no links please...

Surely, you can have an original, (i.e., plagarized) view on what a "real constitutional goverment" is?


Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.

Oct 3, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
The actula positive thing about this i see, is that people, no matter the party affiliation, are FINALLY getting tired of the same ol...Hopefully, this is ONLY the tip of a MT EVEREST of vocal and visible opinion to come. Its a good tiny start and a good sign that we are closer to an END bottom so we can finally start building again.


skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
One of the fatal flaws of the tea party/right wing movement is that
it denigrates its opponents as not being "true" or "real" Americans, both
implicitly and explicitly.

One of the fatal flaws of foreigners who take sides on American politics
is that they never defend the tea party/right wing when the very thing
happenes to them.

It's like they are blind or something.

Would you like to see what people on this very forum say about Republicans?

Would you like to open your eyes?

Where was Anders when tea party people were being beaten by SEIU thugs
when they were having a protest rally?

What say you Mr. Canada?


Skip


Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada

Oct 3, 2011 - 02:06pm PT
Please elaborate Skip.


Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno

Oct 3, 2011 - 02:12pm PT
CYPHERS?


I don't cut cyphers. Cyphering was for math majors.





Honest to god, you'd be amased at just how much engineering succumbs to the point/slope formula you learned in about 5th grade. The ultimate all purpose formula for grading and drainage, sewwer, storm drains, centerlines, parking lots, septic systems, leechfields, irrigation topo, surveying, drafting, curb gutter and sidewalk, estimating drop, distance or quantity, amoong a whole lot more.

In drafting, having some draftsman who was able to run the numbers every 50 or 100 feet along a road centerline to jot them on the plan, or the elevation of the spot on the curb 28 feet away at 2% cross-slope in his head, used to be pretty economic compared to having some high dollar engineer figure them with his calculator, write them down, THEN draft it, spending hours working. Probably doing the it hard way, to boot... and that was true in Autocad modelling, too.

I can do it faster and type it than I can temp the computer in displaying it by the rules of the automated software.




Point/slope formula rules.

Geometry is the universe, the draftsman is its translator. The Engineer or Architect is the boss... and the boss don't do the work.


TGT

Social climber
So Cal

Oct 3, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
An engineer is someone that puts a $500 dollar saddle on a $5 horse,

and then gets the client to pay for a unicorn.


If you are so gud at it Rox, when are you going to get a job?


fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention

Oct 3, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
Rokjox,


Personally, my favorite is multiple regression analysis.


The evil one


TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT

Oct 3, 2011 - 02:19pm PT
“there is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody…Part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.” Elizabeth Warren


TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT

Oct 3, 2011 - 02:21pm PT


Credit: TKingsbury



skipt

Mountain climber
Washington

Oct 3, 2011 - 02:44pm PT
Personally, my favorite is multiple regression analysis.

That is some tough stuff.

It really is.


Skip


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca

Oct 3, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
It's funny that someone would support the many tea party protests, ostensibly protesting higher taxes when no taxes have been raised,

but diss the Occupy Wall Street protesters when the Bankers crashed our economy and hosed the housing market and harmed us all.

Who really cost the people money? If you are unselfish, or selfish, the bankers have been the cause of great suffering to yourself and others and have escaped any criminal liability. Have they been proven innocent? No! They just got a pass. WHat happened to responsibility and accountability?

Just for poor people, I get it

Peace

Karl

Edit


malabarista

Trad climber
Portland, OR

Oct 3, 2011 - 04:40pm PT
If you really want to protest the Wall Street system, you don't have to invest in it. I don't anymore. I don't believe in the us versus them thing on this. We (the collective) bought in to this system (Wall Street) knowing the game was rigged. At a certain point a few years ago I'd had enough, and sold all my investments. I'm out. That is the real protest. I am free to spend my capital on whatever I choose and invest it in other things. I do stand in spirit with the protesters whenever they protest using my tax dollars to bail out "Wall Street", which I want no part of saving since I'm not invested in it. I think if you are talking about "reforming Wall Street" it's barking up the wrong tree. It's rigged and it's always been rigged.


"Wall Street has nothing to do with creating capital for businesses, its original goal. Wall Street is a platform. It’s a platform to be exploited by every technological and intellectual means possible." -Mark Cuban

Source:

http://blogmaverick.com/2011/08/08/what-business-is-wall-street-in-2/


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 3, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
This is a capitalist economy - if we want prosperity, we have to allow capital to flow to where it can be the most productive.

You are assuming that unrestricted capitalism works. Plenty of reasons to think it does not. The only arguments I have seen in favor of unrestricted capitalism are tainted by aggressive indoctrination.



malabarista, not everyone affected has invested. I have no debt and have never invested in the wall sheet, nor have I inherited anything other than a strong work ethic. I still can't find a job, they just aren't there. I still have to pay my taxes so corporations that are "too big to fail" can give executives huge bonuses. I still have to pay higher food prices. Your argument is flawed.


malabarista

Trad climber
Portland, OR

Oct 3, 2011 - 04:58pm PT
I'm lucky that I've never had a problem yet getting a job since my field still seems to be in demand. I am very lucky and grateful for that luck. I still think people have to quit participation in this sham of a system as much as possible for the protest to have any meaning. How many people are out there protesting while still dumping money into their 401K?

I would be fine with discontinuing social security as long as the government is willing to pay me back everything I put in with modest interest. If they try to steal what we people actually paid in to the system which was to be guaranteed for retirement then there should be a revolution.


jstan

climber

Oct 3, 2011 - 05:01pm PT
A while ago I posted the real Dow Jones showing long term real rate of increase is less than 2% and the last decade has been a no-winner. The plot shows to gain you have to actively trade. Something everyone says small investors are unable to do. And the dollar cost averaging brokers propose as a solution makes sense only if there is in fact an upward trend. Which there is not and has not been for more than ten years.

Don’t believe the data? Read the Wall Street Journal.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204831304576592822485984958.html

European nations, flirting with recession, can't agree on how to climb out from under their pile of debt. The U.S. is careening toward a budget fight that threatens to shut down the government. China's mammoth economy may be downshifting.

Economic fragility world-wide is causing investors to retreat from stocks. Traders signal offers on S&P 500 stock-index options in Chicago on Friday.

And across the financial markets, a sea change is taking place. Investors are abandoning the time-tested "stocks for the long run" optimism that dominated since the late 1980s. Instead, there is a widening belief that the mess left behind by the housing bubble and financial crisis will be a morass to contend with for years.

In a historic retreat, investors world-wide during the three months through August pulled some $92 billion out of stock funds in the developed markets, according to data provider EPFR Global—an exodus that more than reversed the total amount of money investors had put into those funds since stocks bottomed in 2009. The withdrawals matched the worst three-month period during the depths of the financial crisis.



fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention

Oct 3, 2011 - 05:02pm PT
malabarista,

You haven't seen my results.



Anyway, just got off the phone with Bob Osborne. Funny that he remembered me and the Hear Ray is on it's way to NYC. Turn the setting to 7 and burn the toast.


The evil one


CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA

Oct 3, 2011 - 05:16pm PT
but diss the Occupy Wall Street protesters when the Bankers crashed our economy and hosed the housing market and harmed us all.


Karl, do you really think Bankers crashed our economy? It had nothing to do with this?



Credit: CrackAddict


This is the total credit market debt from 1920 on as a percent of GDP (so it is inflation adjusted). You see, all Wall Street does is peddle whatever we produce. Unfortunately our main export in the last 25 years has been debt. The biggest culprit here is the Fed though - the steepest sections of this graph correlate strongly with very low interest rate regimes. What banks do makes very good sense in the context of the sandbox they are given. Right now there is no incentive to even take deposits - it is cheaper to borrow at a negative effective rate from the Fed and loan it back to the Government to misallocate, which leads to recession after recession. The longer we try to avoid the pain by bailing out, printing money, stimulating, etc., the longer our economy stays disfunctional and the worse the eventual pain.

In order to get out of a recession, capital has to fall into the hands of those who can make a profit with it, on average. Government has NEVER been able to do this. Right now our ROI on government spending is about 20%(!). When the government bails out or throws stimulus at politically connected companies, the return is not much better than this (see Solyndra). Artifically low interest rates make the situation far worse: Companies that should never see the light of day get capital, creating an economic Galapagos full of companies that would never be able to compete in a tighter economy.

Bad companies have to go bankrupt. Jobs will be lost, but the long term cost of the alternative is far worse.

Again, you can throw every bank CEO in jail right now, but unless structural changes are made, we are not getting out of this funk.


CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA

Oct 3, 2011 - 05:23pm PT
You are assuming that unrestricted capitalism works. Plenty of reasons to think it does not. The only arguments I have seen in favor of unrestricted capitalism are tainted by aggressive indoctrination.

Nobody is arguing for "unrestricted capitalism", whatever that is, but Government needs to get out of the way unless there is a compelling reason to think the private sector cannot function correctly without them (i.e., in cases with a misalligned profit motive). But if you make the argument that capitalism itself does not work, please give an example of a country that has become wealthy without it.


TGT

Social climber
So Cal

Oct 3, 2011 - 05:39pm PT
In the old days, class warriors were proverbial men of the people who made an effort to match their lifestyles with their rhetoric. Not now. When President Obama rails about "millionaires," we expect that in a few hours our Class Warrior in Chief will golf with Wall Street fat cats to hit them up for campaign money. We presume that the First Family prefers Costa del Sol, Martha's Vineyard or Vail to a passé Camp David.

If director Michael Moore or New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg warns us about impending rioting and class strife, we assume both live in huge homes and are multimillionaires. The new class-warfare coalitions are comprised mostly of the less well-off and the very well-off, one wishing for ever more state help, the other rich enough to not mind bestowing it. No wonder both demonize as greedy and racist Tea Baggers those in the middle who are most likely to feel the cost of ever more government.

....



Post Modern Class Warfare.


Class warfare is now not about brutal elemental poverty of the sort Charles Dickens or Knut Hamsun once wrote about. It is too often the anger that arises from not having something that someone else has, whether or not such style, privilege or discretionary choices are all that necessary. Endemic obesity, not malnutrition, threatens America — including the nearly 50 million Americans who are on food stamps.

These are hard times, with high unemployment rates and economic stagnation. But we are not a nation of the malnourished and starving who are preyed upon by idle rich drones who pay no taxes. And a government that borrows $4 billion a day and spends $2 trillion more a year than it did just 10 years ago is hardly stingy.


http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson100311.html


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA

Oct 3, 2011 - 05:50pm PT
Nobody is arguing for "unrestricted capitalism", whatever that is, but Government needs to get out of the way unless there is a compelling reason to think the private sector cannot function correctly without them (i.e., in cases with a misalligned profit motive). But if you make the argument that capitalism itself does not work, please give an example of a country that has become wealthy without it.


Yep.

Solyndra is an example of unrestricted socialism gone wrong. All the capitalists were saying it was a bad deal, and it was. Yet gov't forced it upon us, and we taxpayers lose.

Are any of those stupid anarchists in Brooklyn bitching about that???


spidey

Trad climber
Berkeley CA

Oct 3, 2011 - 06:08pm PT
Something is Happening, and you don't know what it is...do you, Mr. Jones...


spidey

Trad climber
Berkeley CA

Oct 3, 2011 - 06:11pm PT
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/catherine-crier/capitalists-of-america--u_b_992786.html

Capitalists of America -- Unite! (Why Adam Smith would be marching today)
Posted: 10/3/11 03:24 PM ET

That's my rallying cry for the protestors on Wall Street, for the millions of citizens who are unemployed, for the anti-government Tea Partiers and for the nation's small business owners and entrepreneurs. It is time to expose the imposters and reclaim capitalism for the American people.

Today, Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations is considered a Bible for capitalism, but when published in 1776, it was a blasphemous challenge to the big business, big government mercantilism in Europe. Smith's free market theories expanded economic opportunity, promoted competition and encouraged innovation, in large part, by attacking the "concentrated wealth and power" of Britain's commercial elite.

More than taxation without representation, it was the corrupt British economic system that ignited the American Revolution -- just read the entire Declaration of Independence. This insidious corruption was a major focus of Smith's economic treatise. Smith's theories dovetailed beautifully with Thomas Jefferson's political manifesto, and his writings became the framework for our capitalist philosophy. But as both men learned in their lifetime, theory and practice are rarely in sync.

In a Faustian bargain, our leaders pay homage to Smith's ideals, but from the outset, they have ignored his model in favor of rapid national expansion and global economic power. What we call capitalism is, in fact, the American version of mercantilism. Ludwig von Mises, a libertarian economist, summed up its benefits rather nicely: "Capitalism gave the world what it needed, a higher standard of living for a growing population." Measured thusly, the results have been breathtakingly successful, but if the goal is the long-term viability of our economic and political democracy, we are in serious trouble.

Just as Jeffersonian democracy operates best on a small scale, Adam Smith believed his self-correcting free markets were ideal for small businesses in a domestic economy. Integrated in their communities, these businesses would be influenced directly by the needs and demands of consumers, and any dangerous or abusive conduct would rarely affect the broader economy. But Smith treated large, powerful companies very differently. He said big business was led by "an order of men...that generally have an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public", and he referred to powerful corporations (then known as joint stock companies) as "unaccountable sovereigns" that were as dangerous to free markets as tyrannical governments. Unrestrained, they had the power to shape society and governments for their own purposes, and consumers would pay for "all the extraordinary profits" while suffering from "all the extraordinary waste", the inherent fraud and abuse, that accompanies such immense economic power.

Smith stated emphatically that a strong government, acting through democratic and legal institutions, was the only entity capable of challenging such corporate power. Smith supported necessary government regulations, labor and human rights, public education, and progressive taxation to ease the economic and social inequities he knew would occur in a capitalist system. Without these "liberal" measures, social and political unrest would threaten a nation's stability and his free market economy could not survive.

While Thomas Jefferson applauded Smith's theories, the 'father of American conservatism', Alexander Hamilton, denounced this philosophy as nonsense. Hamilton intended to establish America as a global powerhouse in short order. He was thinking big and didn't have time for Smith's small-scale, go-slow approach. Britain's mercantile system was elitist and abusive, but Hamilton knew it was the engine that drove England's powerful economy. As Secretary of the Treasury, he planned to use that very system to propel America onto the world stage.

Both his plan and its execution were brilliant. Hamilton set out to consolidate power in the new federal government by controlling the money supply, tariffs and trade and by managing the nation's industrial development. Farmers and shopkeepers couldn't provide the revenue he needed, nor could they finance the commercial development and infrastructure necessary for America to play in the big leagues. Hamilton needed big money and powerful partners in the private sector.

To accomplish this, he used the courts and Federalist Congress to institutionalize a powerful federal government and corporatist economy, a practice continued by his successors. The myth that corporations are somehow "persons" and equivalent to the human beings Adam Smith was liberating in his free market utopia is possibly the most successful coup in the history of the world, achieved with the stroke of a judicial pen in 1886.

Despite warnings by prescient Republican presidents like Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt and Dwight Eisenhower, the American system has morphed quite predictably into a dog-eat-dog economic Darwinism, and the **big canines have rigged the game in their favor.

Flying the capitalist flag, the really big guys have completely corrupted Smith's free market philosophy. They use their concentrated wealth and power to buy off politicians, skate around regulations, abuse their privileges and sometimes, break the laws to win. When their politicians and corporate-sponsored "citizen" groups insist that small government and the market itself are sufficient checks, that further controls are a socialist plot to destroy capitalism, they are counting on our collective naiveté to win the game. They are destroying free enterprise by abusing the very freedoms intrinsic to a market economy.

That so many conservatives, adamant that they are defending true capitalism, would fail to make this distinction, gives credence to the power of the "big lie." They have so internalized this nonsense, that again and again, they are willing to defend transnational behemoths over the well-being of the American economy.

As one (somewhat mysterious) financial trader said in a BBC TV interview last week, a crashing economy is a brilliant opportunity for savvy insiders to make a killing. The economic well-being of a nation or its citizens is not a major factor in the world of transnational commerce. Predicting that the economic crisis will deepen, he summed up his message with a smile -- governments don't rule the world, Goldman Sachs rules the world.

For true American patriots who believe in a vibrant free market economy, it is time to recognize we've been sold a bill of goods. The real enemy in the battle for American capitalism is not socialism; it is global corporatism. For true patriots, conservatives and liberals alike, the stakes could not be higher.

My new book, Patriot Acts -- What Americans Must Do to Save the Republic, examines the true nature of our constitutional system, how it has been interpreted and manipulated by conservatives and liberals since 1789, the effect of partisan ideology on this democratic system, including the economy, national security, health care, education and immigration, and how modern politicians betray the founding principles, constitutional system and economic capitalism that all Americans, left and right, profess to defend. Patriot Acts can be preordered on-line and will be released on November 1, 2011.

Patriotacts.com, catherine@patriotacts.com


John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California

Oct 3, 2011 - 06:15pm PT
Yet gov't forced it upon us, and we taxpayers lose.

I totally agree!

Just like Iraq.. 1 trillion dollars versus half a billion. those damn socialist.

Why can't they think big like the Republicans?


Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you

Oct 3, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
If the tea baggers and the progressives are getting together that can only a good thing!

Kick ass boys!!

Thieves, crooks and corrupt sociopaths.
I've seen enough of it personaly and nationally to last a life time.
Revolution!!


spidey

Trad climber
Berkeley CA

Oct 3, 2011 - 06:26pm PT
You know something? [Wall Street] will get it. They'll get it all from you sooner or later, 'cause they own this f*in' place. It's a big club, and you ain't in it. You and I are not in the big club. ... The table is tilted, folks. The game is rigged. And nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care. Good, honest hard working people ... continue to elect these rich c*suckers who don't give a f*** about them.

-George Carlin


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:07pm PT
I'm not saying bank bailouts were good. They should have been allowed to fail if they made bad decisions.

But blaming "wealthy" people on this problem is somewhat misguided. This was a Fannie/Freddie problem coupled with some other factors.

The anarchists demonstrating are mostly lazy anti-capitalist commies. They can go f*#k themselves for all I care. Go to work, get a job!

Quit being a PITA to people who choose to go to work and lead responsible lives!~


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:17pm PT
Government needs to get out of the way unless there is a compelling reason to think the private sector cannot function correctly without them

Uh... if government isn't going to restrict corporate greed, who is? I think the private sector has proven it cannot function correctly on its own.


China seems to be doing pretty well without capitalism.


Spidey, thanks for the post:
Just as Jeffersonian democracy operates best on a small scale, Adam Smith believed his self-correcting free markets were ideal for small businesses in a domestic economy. Integrated in their communities, these businesses would be influenced directly by the needs and demands of consumers, and any dangerous or abusive conduct would rarely affect the broader economy. But Smith treated large, powerful companies very differently. He said big business was led by "an order of men...that generally have an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public", and he referred to powerful corporations (then known as joint stock companies) as "unaccountable sovereigns" that were as dangerous to free markets as tyrannical governments. Unrestrained, they had the power to shape society and governments for their own purposes, and consumers would pay for "all the extraordinary profits" while suffering from "all the extraordinary waste", the inherent fraud and abuse, that accompanies such immense economic power.

Smith stated emphatically that a strong government, acting through democratic and legal institutions, was the only entity capable of challenging such corporate power. Smith supported necessary government regulations, labor and human rights, public education, and progressive taxation to ease the economic and social inequities he knew would occur in a capitalist system. Without these "liberal" measures, social and political unrest would threaten a nation's stability and his free market economy could not survive.


Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:20pm PT
"if you don't like the world, don't bitch and moan, do something about it!"

bill graham rock promoter

his shows always started at 8:00 pm

never 8:01, always 8. dude was badass



FortMental

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:20pm PT
China seems to be doing pretty well without capitalism.

Umm.... Excuse me?


Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:22pm PT
Weschrist writes:

"Uh... if government isn't going to restrict corporate greed, who is?"


In a free country, what business does the government have restricting anybody's *greed* ?


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:23pm PT
yer excused, now get the fuk out of here.



In a free country, what business does the government have restricting anybody's *greed* ?

That IS the business of government in a free country when crooks are concerned, moron.


Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:28pm PT
The historical arc of the liberal activist:

Street demonstrating --- legitimate political power in government ---failure of policies and values --- back to the street



Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:29pm PT
That IS the business of government in a free country when crooks are concerned, moron.

Some of the greediest people on the planet are in government. And most of the corrupt ones.


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:33pm PT
A well spoken young lad. Never made it on Faux News. They were probably too busy covering important stuff, like the Jackson trial.

http://youtu.be/6yrT-0Xbrn4


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
This whole she-bang resulted from many things;

Fannie/Freddie basically forcing banks to give loans to losers.

The repeal of the Glass-Stiegal Act.

Reapealing the 'uptick rule' in bond/stock trading. (A big one!!!).

Short selling.


In short, yeah, there needs to be regulations in a free-market system. But to pin this on rich right-wingers is misguided. The lefties soak the system and the rules just as much.

Put the regs back into place. Wealthy people create jobs. Let them continue to do so. It's the traders who are f*#king us!


Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
Never made it on Faux News.

But I bet he made it on CBS,NBC,ABC, Reuters,AP, NPR, and CNN


Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:44pm PT
I think it's pretty clear from watching the rapid economic rise of East Asia that state managed capitalism is far more efficient than the individualistic laisez faire version practiced in America. It doesn't matter if it is managed by the left (China) or the right (Singapore) or moderately democratic, center leaning, right regimes (South Korea, Japan, Taiwan), what's important is having professional economists running the country instead of hack politicians backed by selfish and greedy corporate interest who care only for their own welfare and that of their company and not the country and its people as a whole.

All of these successful economies also level the playing field by government sponsored basic services to their citizens such as education and health care.


Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:45pm PT
only smart people should breed.

no wait, i sound like hank jr

global warming is gonna kick everybody's ass, so screw politics because...




































































your gonna die!



bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
what's important is having professional economists running the country instead of hack politicians backed by selfish and greedy corporate interest who care only for their own welfare and that of their company and not the country and its people as a whole.

Like Paul Krugman???


Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:48pm PT
state managed capitalism

If ever their were an oxymoron this is it.
You ought to float that by the spoiled brats currently stinking up the NY streets.


dirtbag

climber

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
Glad you agree that Krugman should have a greater role.

;-)


ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:50pm PT
punkz!!!


Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:50pm PT
oh yeah, lets bring back warren greenspan,


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:51pm PT
Put the regs back into place.

yeah, less government!

The top 10% have 80% to 90% of stocks, bonds, trust funds, and business equity...
William Domhoff, UCSD

Yeah, the rich don't have anything to do with the stock market, it is just the traders.


Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:53pm PT
sorry, i meant alex greenspoon


Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA

Oct 3, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
spoonex greenale


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA

Oct 3, 2011 - 08:01pm PT
The top 10% have 80% to 90% of stocks, bonds, trust funds, and business equity...

And they just lost their asses in the past 2-weeks. Is it becuase of them of gov't lack of policy? Uncertainty due to lack of leadership and misguided Keynesian policy?

Or is it because of stout leadership and faith in markets?

The man in the WH breathes uncertainty and distrust of our current direction.

EDIT: Greenspan was a putz too.


Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA

Oct 3, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
The top 10% have 80% to 90% of stocks, bonds, trust funds, and business equity...

Yes and the top 10% of pro athletes make nearly that much relative to the other players. Where would those teams be if the players making less confiscated the earnings of the top 10%?


Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY

Oct 3, 2011 - 10:28pm PT
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego

Oct 3, 2011 - 10:35pm PT
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."




Lovegas,

Right on!




OK SuperTopians, let's take a moment for a teach-in. We have a great teachable moment here. Let's not waste it.


What's going on for real?




Occupy U.S.A., with Jeff Madrick - Countdown with Keith Olbermann (Prof./Author of The Age of Greed)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x621442
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0o1DpNSkpc

Moore From The Street, with Michael Moore:Countdown with Keith Olbermann
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x621447
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXVz3378pcQ

Tomorrow the World? with Michael Moore - Countdown with Keith Olbermann
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x621452
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXJcjonMckY

OccupyWallStreet Protester - DESTROYS - Fox News Reporter!!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x621083
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yrT-0Xbrn4




The Bible on the Poor
or, Why God is a liberal
http://www.zompist.com/meetthepoor.html



Luke 12:48 (KJV)
" . . . For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:21pm PT
Crack wrote

This is the total credit market debt from 1920 on as a percent of GDP (so it is inflation adjusted). You see, all Wall Street does is peddle whatever we produce. Unfortunately our main export in the last 25 years has been debt.

It's more complicated than that. Wall Street Created much extra debt without responsibility by loaning to people who couldn't afford it, telling them housing was only going to appreciate, and then offloading that risk from themselves by securitizing it, and then further leveraging with CDOs. They sold that crap to other suckers who had no way of knowing what was truly inside those securities and the credit-worthiness of those loans were lied about. This was made possible by deregulation, greed and often Fraud. (Cooking the loan books and much more)

The biggest culprit here is the Fed though - the steepest sections of this graph correlate strongly with very low interest rate regimes. What banks do makes very good sense in the context of the sandbox they are given. Right now there is no incentive to even take deposits - it is cheaper to borrow at a negative effective rate from the Fed and loan it back to the Government to misallocate, which leads to recession after recession.

I'm all for getting rid of the Fed, which you will note is NOT a government body and is comprised of Banksters! It's an insane and crude scam that Banks are able to take the gift that they have given themselves by having a negative effective rate and milking it at the people's (Government's) expense while not loaning to the people. Yes the structure is wrong. It should be changed but don't blame government. Government not truly existing is the problem. Private industry deregulated has already proven more corrupt.

Government is screwed up here because they have been bought GOP and DEM alike by big business and are populated by a revolving door of big Wall Street criminals like Larry Summers and Geitner and the rest, All former executives of the same firms that sodomized the country.

So yeah, I'm critical of Government too, but getting rid of government isn't the answer, it's already been done by selling out to Wall Street control which is why nobody went to jail for the 2008 crisis while LOTS of people went to Jail for the S&L crisis back d
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 4, 2011 - 03:52pm PT
power to the people

rite on karl

hey karl, how many different girls have you slept with?

do they all have the same response or is each one a little different?

what if you get a screamer while camping in a public campground?

duck tape?

tweezers?

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2011 - 03:53pm PT
This will probably finish the posting
+
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca

Oct 3, 2011 - 11:21pm PT
Crack wrote

This is the total credit market debt from 1920 on as a percent of GDP (so it is inflation adjusted). You see, all Wall Street does is peddle whatever we produce. Unfortunately our main export in the last 25 years has been debt.

It's more complicated than that. Wall Street Created much extra debt without responsibility by loaning to people who couldn't afford it, telling them housing was only going to appreciate, and then offloading that risk from themselves by securitizing it, and then further leveraging with CDOs. They sold that crap to other suckers who had no way of knowing what was truly inside those securities and the credit-worthiness of those loans were lied about. This was made possible by deregulation, greed and often Fraud. (Cooking the loan books and much more)

The biggest culprit here is the Fed though - the steepest sections of this graph correlate strongly with very low interest rate regimes. What banks do makes very good sense in the context of the sandbox they are given. Right now there is no incentive to even take deposits - it is cheaper to borrow at a negative effective rate from the Fed and loan it back to the Government to misallocate, which leads to recession after recession.

I'm all for getting rid of the Fed, which you will note is NOT a government body and is comprised of Banksters! It's an insane and crude scam that Banks are able to take the gift that they have given themselves by having a negative effective rate and milking it at the people's (Government's) expense while not loaning to the people. Yes the structure is wrong. It should be changed but don't blame government. Government not truly existing is the problem. Private industry deregulated has already proven more corrupt.

Government is screwed up here because they have been bought GOP and DEM alike by big business and are populated by a revolving door of big Wall Street criminals like Larry Summers and Geitner and the rest, All former executives of the same firms that sodomized the country.

So yeah, I'm critical of Government too, but getting rid of government isn't the answer, it's already been done by selling out to Wall Street control which is why nobody went to jail for the 2008 crisis while LOTS of people went to Jail for the S&L crisis back during the First Bush days.

Which brings up a another point. Seems like there is this Boom Bust cycle, that seems engineered by Wall Street and the Fed that always manages to bust right at the end of a presidential term limit. Doesn't matter whether it's GOP or DEM. Dotcom busted after Clinton, housing busted at the end of Bush, Carter went out with a Bust, and then the S&L.

And after all these busts, the super-rich last-guys-standing, who have made bank on the boom, buy up all the losers in the bust.

Just watch it

Peace

Karl

Edit


Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Oct 4, 2011 - 01:04am PT
karl, how many chicks?



Lolli

Mountain climber
We lose ourselves in work to do and bills to pay

Oct 4, 2011 - 02:25am PT
I think it's pretty clear from watching the rapid economic rise of East Asia that state managed capitalism is far more efficient than the individualistic laisez faire version practiced in America. It doesn't matter if it is managed by the left (China) or the right (Singapore) or moderately democratic, center leaning, right regimes (South Korea, Japan, Taiwan), what's important is having professional economists running the country instead of hack politicians backed by selfish and greedy corporate interest who care only for their own welfare and that of their company and not the country and its people as a whole.

All of these successful economies also level the playing field by government sponsored basic services to their citizens such as education and health care.

+ North Europe


exactly.


gf

climber

Oct 4, 2011 - 02:30am PT
It's the traders who are f*#king us!
Far be from me to defend short-sellers, but all they are doing is amplifying bad calls by countries (97 asian meltdown anyone), banks or individuals.
But then again, the best way to outlaw short sellers is to outlaw poor judgment -and i don't think we can outlaw people voting repub :/


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego

Oct 4, 2011 - 06:01am PT
Want to know the background of what happened to us financially?

Want to know why people are marching and protesting?



Inside Job - Download the FULL Movie

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xekoka_inside-job-download-the-full-movie_shortfilms


Good short review of the movie:
http://www.sbs.com.au/films/movie/7817/Inside-Job-


If you haven't seen this movie yet, then you must. There were 2 9-11s. One near the beginning of Bush's time in office and then the economic 9-11 right at the end. Gee, both on his watch. Who would of thunk? What are the odds of that?


gf

climber

Oct 4, 2011 - 06:07am PT
Thank goodness for the movie to tell us what happened, it just makes me want to get out in the street, wall or main and tell the man that I'm as mad as hell and aren't going to take it anymore. Oh hang on, I just noticed that the cows got out and i'd best go close the barn door. be right back


Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California

Oct 4, 2011 - 06:38am PT
Good grief, here we go with the “general welfare” clause again as if the whole Constitution were spun around it. It is one of six clauses in a perambulatory statement explaining why the actual document was written. And while yes, it is there, it is clearly the most softly stated of the six, beginning as it does with the word “promote.” Read it again if you will.

Each of the other five clauses is stated with more assertive language, for example “provide for the common defense.” To form…, establish…, insure…, provide…, and finally to “secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity” are all more definitive statements. To promote does not mean to insure or to provide or to establish or to secure.


dirtbag

climber

Oct 4, 2011 - 06:57am PT
Yeah, the preamble doesn't really mean much.


Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California

Oct 4, 2011 - 07:08am PT
I didn't say it doesn't mean much. I just think the words are very carefully chosen. I like words and think they have meaning.


TGT

Social climber
So Cal

Oct 4, 2011 - 07:18am PT
Then there's the little problem of the tenth amendment that overides all that proceeds.


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 4, 2011 - 09:26am PT
Yes and the top 10% of pro athletes make nearly that much relative to the other players.

To suggest the top players (richest Uhmerikuhns) do not influence the success of the NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL, etc (stock market) would be absurd. And yes, I expect nothing less than absurd from blurring.


Where would those teams be if the players making less confiscated the earnings of the top 10%?

Where they belong, playing a GAME on the streets or wherever. Not treated like gods while teachers get paid squat to dodge bullets and babysit kids who have been sold the fairytale that they can be part of the machine, a TOP athlete, if they just spend their money on Gatorade(R) or Nike(R) or whatever(R) instead of something useful and real.


spidey

Trad climber
Berkeley CA

Oct 4, 2011 - 09:29am PT
+1 for Inside Job - watched it last night, gives a great explanation for what really happened with interviews with the banksters, footage from congressional testimony, interviews with economists, etc.

Even the professional economists are in on it. They all get paid by the banksters too.


fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention

Oct 4, 2011 - 09:35am PT
Karl is correct for the most part, BUT, no one points guns at the heads of consumers to buy homes, Harleys, take out more credit cards, flat screen TV's, etc. And think about all of the jobs that get created to produce those houses, cars, bikes, TV's!!!!111666

The regulators dropped the ball watching Wall ST, the street can get carried away.


Karl,

I'm still a homeless person, a squatter.




The evilone


khanom

Trad climber
The Dessert

Oct 4, 2011 - 09:38am PT
...no one points guns at the heads of consumers to buy homes, Harleys, take out more credit cards, flat screen TV's, etc.


Ever watch TV?


TGT

Social climber
So Cal

Oct 4, 2011 - 09:56am PT
The French Revolution is the template for all mob uprisings, and the signal event of that lunacy was an attack on a prison housing only half a dozen prisoners.

As best anyone can tell, the storming of the Bastille was instigated by a rumor that the laughably impotent King Louis XVI was about to stage an attack on the National Assembly. Or perhaps they were upset that the inept finance minister, Jacques Necker, had been fired. Or they thought the Bastille was an eyesore.

(The only other possible cause was recently ruled out when it was conclusively determined that France had no teachers unions in the late 18th century.)

No one is sure -- but a good time was had by all! Except the prison administrators murdered in the attack.

Liberals love mobs because rioting and anarchy is their path to power.

Making sound proposals based on facts and logic is not their metier. Issuing impossible promises to the easily fooled is their specialty. For more on this, see "The 2012 Democratic Platform."

The entire Democratic Party is currently promising to "save" Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid in their present form. According to Obama's own Treasury Secretary, Tim Geithner, in less than 10 years, spending on those three entitlement programs, plus servicing the national debt, will consume 92 cents of every dollar in the federal budget.

The Democrats are openly lying to voters. It is a mathematical impossibility for these programs to continue without major reform now, or complete bankruptcy later -- and not very much later.

But Democrats' real achievement has been in destroying the family, and thereby creating an endless supply of potential rioters.

When blacks were only four generations out of slavery, their illegitimacy rate was about 23 percent (lower than the white illegitimacy rate is now). Then Democrats decided to help them! Barely two generations since LBJ's Great Society programs began, the black illegitimacy rate has tripled to 72 percent.

Meanwhile, the white illegitimacy rate has septupled, from 4 percent to 29 percent.

Instead of a "War on Poverty," it should have been called a "War on the Family."

The vast and permanent underclass created by the welfare state is a great success story for the Democratic Party, which now has a loyal constituency of deadbeats who automatically vote for the Democrats to keep their Trojan horse "benefits" flowing.

It's the Democrats' "heroin dealer" model of government.

Apparently, it takes a lot of government workers to minister to the poor, inasmuch as government employment has skyrocketed in tandem with the family's disintegration. As long as Democrats are serving their principal constituency -- recipients of taxpayer money -- they don't care what happens to the rest of society.

They champion any mob that will increase their political power. Liberals promote welfare dependency, class warfare, endless government programs staffed with public sector workers, street protests, coddling criminals and physical attacks on their ideological opponents. This is how they create reliable Democratic voters.

True, government employees are doing jobs we don't want done, can never be fired, are bankrupting the country and periodically break out in mob violence.

True, also, that the children of broken families sometimes burn city blocks to the ground or kill their great-grandmothers with swords. But what a voting bloc!


http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2011-08-17.html


weschrist

Gym climber
left sac

Oct 4, 2011 - 10:00am PT
Warning... the above link is a transvestite donkey witch masturbating to her own scat.


spidey

Trad climber
Berkeley CA

Oct 4, 2011 - 10:01am PT
Wow. what a bunch of drivel. (edit - referring to Coulter's article above)


fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention

Oct 4, 2011 - 10:01am PT
TGT,

I'm not much of a Coulter fan, but she is spot on with that one. The Dems have created a permanent welfare class and the votes that go with it.


The evil one


FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA

Oct 4, 2011 - 10:02am PT
Kris I can't believe that you don't understand the importance of the preamble to the constitution.
Each & every word is of the utmost importance, it's setting up the whole constitution.
It was writen by Gouverneur Morris. The job was given to him for many reasons. The most important one being that Gouverneur had not signed the Declaration of Independence, because he thought that working people could not govern them selfs. Without the ruling class to govern them they would kill each other & steal what was left. By 1787 he had radical change he understood that all people have a right to self govern & that the sole job of goverment was to care for it's people.


fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention

Oct 4, 2011 - 10:23am PT
Fry them with the Heat Ray.



The evil one


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca

Oct 4, 2011 - 10:24am PT
See Inside job! Might as well know why our rear ends sting


Want to know the background of what happened to us financially?

Want to know why people are marching and protesting?



Inside Job - Download the FULL Movie

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xekoka_inside-job-download-the-full-movie_shortfilms


Good short review of the movie:
http://www.sbs.com.au/films/movie/7817/Inside-Job-


Edit


spidey

Trad climber
Berkeley CA

Oct 4, 2011 - 10:26am PT
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jared-bernstein/occupy-wall-st-this-is-no_b_994388.html

Occupy Wall St.: This Is Not a Head Scratcher

Last night I heard a story on NPR about the Wall St. protest that is now spreading to other cities. The gist of the story was: "what are these protests really about? What do they want?"

I'm sorry, but that's just not a head scratcher. Do these news analysts think it's a coincidence that they're occupying Wall St. as opposed to Columbus Ave north of 79th?

As Andrew Sorkin put it today (after writing that the message was "at times...hard to discern"):

... the demonstrators are seeking accountability for Wall Street and corporate America for the financial crisis and the growing economic inequality gap.

I'm not saying everyone down there is ready to give a clear exposition of the facts of the case, but commentators can stop scratching their heads now.

I've been writing about these problems for decades. Sometimes they've gotten a little better, but mostly they've gotten worse. Before the downturn, the share of income held by the top 1% was 23.5%, the highest since 1928 and more than twice the 10% level of the late 1970s.

These are growth shares, as in they have to sum to 100%-when one group's share goes up like that, everybody else's has to shrink.

That doesn't mean real income values can't rise for other groups, of course (though it does imply slower relative growth, compared to the high end). But in fact, the middle class and the poor haven't seen that either... the decade of the 2000s saw middle-incomes decline in real terms for working-age households. The recession just made those incomes fall faster.

Protest movements are often born of two interacting injustices: the lack of opportunity and the lack of accountability by the persons perceived to be blocking that opportunity.

Given the facts of the income distribution, the trends in real middle-class incomes and poverty, the failure of policy to do much to change these trends, the government bailouts of the only class that's benefited from the recovery so far, the absence of clear punishment/accountability for the financial and political institutions that helped inflate the debt bubble that continues to squeeze economies across the globe, and the dysfunctionality of the current political system (they're arguing more about whether they can keep the lights on than whether they can help solve the economic problems), the more interesting question is what took so long for such protests to show up?


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca

Oct 4, 2011 - 10:36am PT
Ann C is a ^*&(()&

She decries all this additional money supposedly going to the poor! Without mentioning the MUCH GREATER increase in military spending

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=125

By Richard Kogan
Revised March 6, 2008

Some may think the President’s recent attempts to squeeze domestic appropriations are being made in response to an explosion of domestic discretionary funding during his Administration’s first six years. But this is not correct: there has been no such funding explosion for domestic discretionary programs. Between fiscal year 2001 (the last year for which appropriations levels were set under President Clinton) and fiscal year 2008, funding for domestic discretionary programs has been more constrained than any other area of the budget and has shrunk both as a share of the budget and as a share of the economy. In contrast, appropriations for defense and other security-related programs have increased more rapidly than any other area of the budget — even more rapidly than the costs of the “big three” entitlement programs: Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.

Then the Idiot writes

But Democrats' real achievement has been in destroying the family, and thereby creating an endless supply of potential rioters.

When blacks were only four generations out of slavery, their illegitimacy rate was about 23 percent (lower than the white illegitimacy rate is now). Then Democrats decided to help them! Barely two generations since LBJ's Great Society programs began, the black illegitimacy rate has tripled to 72 percent.

Meanwhile, the white illegitimacy rate has septupled, from 4 percent to 29 percent.


Of course she claims Democrats destroyed the family without any citation or evidence. You have to wonder what the illegitimacy rate would be if the GOP's position of banning Abortion were enacted.

But here's a bit more from the link regarding spending

There has been no rapid rise in funding for domestic discretionary programs in recent years; in fact these programs have shrunk both as a share of the budget and as a share of the economy.
In contrast, funding for defense and related programs has exploded. Since 2001, it has jumped at an annual average rate of 8 percent, after adjusting for inflation and population — four times faster than the average rate of growth for Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid (2 percent), and 27 times faster than the average rate for growth for domestic discretionary programs (0.3 percent).
Funding for defense and related programs has shot up by 2 percent of GDP in just seven years. It is expected to take more than two decades for Social Security to grow by 2 percent of GDP.

Even when costs for Iraq, Afghanistan, and the “global war on terror” are excluded, funding for the regular defense budget has risen at a stunning rate that dwarfs the growth rates for all parts of the domestic budget.

The combined effect of the Administration’s tax cuts and its defense spending increases (including the war) has been a budget deterioration equal to 3.3 percent of GDP since 2001. By contrast, increases in costs for all domestic programs combined have cost a little less than 0.6 percent of GDP.

The GOP has taken to talking sh#t out of context and just saying what they want you to believe, not what's true. It is the military budget that has more than doubled since 2001. Why don't they care?

Peace

karl

Ps, The "Welfare Class" doesn't vote as much as you think. Better beware if they start cause there is a lot more very poor than very rich


Edit


Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...

Oct 4, 2011 - 10:38am PT
The GOP has taken to talking sh#t out of context and just saying what they want you to believe, not what's true. It is the military budget that has more than doubled since 2001. Why don't they care?

Because defense spending is as close as they are ever going to get to defending their country. Plenty O democrats in that lineup too. The more you spend the bigger the patriot you can pretend to be! Yee HAH!

DMT


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca

Oct 4, 2011 - 10:46am PT
Everyone in this country should be required to listen to the farewell address of this Republican Military General Turned President

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY

Peace

Karl

Edit


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands

Oct 4, 2011 - 11:03am PT
Karl is correct:

The poor simply do not vote, or do vote at a rate much lower than the "middle class".

And Fattrad, the fact is that American capitalism simply cannot create enough jobs for anywhere near "full" employment. In that sense, capitalism is a "failure".

So that leaves us with tens of millions of Americans who, not by choice, will never find jobs and contribute any tax dollars from earned income to society at large. FACT

So, what to do with "them"?

That question was answered over 50 years ago when "we" decided that we would not let Americans live anymore without some kind of safety net.

Safety net means "welfare", food stamps, SS and Medicare.

Now you can be an ignorant ass and say the "Dems" created this situation, but the fact is that abject poverty existed in America long long before any social programs existed.

Why don't you try pulling your head out of your ass and propose solutions to problems instead of sitting in the bleachers and repeating tired old talking points like a child.


atchafalaya

Boulder climber

Oct 4, 2011 - 11:08am PT
"Now you can be an ignorant ass and say the "Dems" created this situation, but the fact is that abject poverty existed in America long long before any social programs existed.

Why don't you try pulling your head out of your ass and propose solutions to problems instead of sitting in the bleachers and repeating tired old talking points like a child."

Because stupidity has been around even longer then poverty?


10b4me

Boulder climber
Happy Boulders

Oct 4, 2011 - 11:20am PT
reminds of the people that walk around wearing Che Guevarra t-shirts while living in a capitalist country.
but hey, I liked Che


Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...

Oct 4, 2011 - 11:21am PT
Saw one of those guys in the Minneapolis airport last week... middle aged geezer, his Che shirt under a flannel long sleeve, (seriously) and a nice vente Star Bucks clutched in his pudgy mitt... hahahahahahaha!

DMT


Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY

Oct 4, 2011 - 11:26am PT
Ksolem:
Good grief, here we go with the “general welfare” clause again as if the whole Constitution were spun around it. It is one of six clauses in a perambulatory statement explaining why the actual document was written. And while yes, it is there, it is clearly the most softly stated of the six, beginning as it does with the word “promote.” Read it again if you will.

Each of the other five clauses is stated with more assertive language, for example “provide for the common defense.” To form…, establish…, insure…, provide…, and finally to “secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity” are all more definitive statements. To promote does not mean to insure or to provide or to establish or to secure.

????



Ksolem, apparently you do not possess the language skills of the framers.
Allow me to alleviate your ignorance.
Here's a language lesson for you.

promote|prəˈmōt|
verb [ trans. ]

ORIGIN late Middle English : from Latin promot- ‘moved forward,’ from the verb promovere, from pro- ‘forward, onward’ + movere ‘to move'.

1 further the progress of (something, esp. a cause, venture, or aim); support or actively encourage : some regulation is still required to promote competition.
• give publicity to (a product, organization, or venture) so as to increase sales or public awareness : they are using famous personalities to promote the library nationally.
• Chemistry act as a promoter of (a catalyst).
2 (often be promoted) advance or raise (someone) to a higher position or rank : she was promoted to general manager.
• transfer (a sports team) to a higher division of a league : they were promoted from the Third Division last season.
• Chess exchange (a pawn) for a more powerful piece of the same color, typically a queen, as part of the move in which it reaches the opponent's end of the board.
• Bridge enable (a relatively low card) to win a trick by playing off the higher ones first.
DERIVATIVES
promotability |prəˌmōtəˈbilətē| noun
promotable adjective
promotive |-tiv| adjective




That's right: PROMOTE!


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.

Oct 4, 2011 - 11:31am PT
That's pretty funny Dingus, and one reason why this well meant movement is probably ( and unfortunately) doomed for obscurity in the annals of history.

This thread has degenerated to a point where I just kinda wanna nuke it.

But that's not very democratic I guess.


CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA

Oct 4, 2011 - 11:32am PT
I'm all for getting rid of the Fed, which you will note is NOT a government body and is comprised of Banksters! It's an insane and crude scam that Banks are able to take the gift that they have given themselves by having a negative effective rate and milking it at the people's (Government's) expense while not loaning to the people. Yes the structure is wrong. It should be changed but don't blame government. Government not truly existing is the problem. Private industry deregulated has already proven more corrupt.

Government is screwed up here because they have been bought GOP and DEM alike by big business and are populated by a revolving door of big Wall Street criminals like Larry Summers and Geitner and the rest, All former executives of the same firms that sodomized the country.

So yeah, I'm critical of Government too, but getting rid of government isn't the answer, it's already been done by selling out to Wall Street control which is why nobody went to jail for the 2008 crisis while LOTS of people went to Jail for the S&L crisis back during the First Bush days.

Which brings up a another point. Seems like there is this Boom Bust cycle, that seems engineered by Wall Street and the Fed that always manages to bust right at the end of a presidential term limit. Doesn't matter whether it's GOP or DEM. Dotcom busted after Clinton, housing busted at the end of Bush, Carter went out with a Bust, and then the S&L.

And after all these busts, the super-rich last-guys-standing, who have made bank on the boom, buy up all the losers in the bust.

Karl, I think you are right on with many of these points, esp. about the Fed and it's interplay with the banks. But I don't believe deregulation had anything to do with our problems, and in fact I don't believe any real deregulation occured (congress chose NOT to regulate derivatives, but that is not deregulation). Getting rid of the Glass-Steagall act did nothing because banks already had workarounds. There is a strong correlation between the amount of regulation a country has and its level of corruption - politicians impose barriers, and make money by granting people exemptions to these barriers. Regulation is seldom made to solve real problems. For example, a very simple regulation that would do more than the entire Dodd-Frank is to make financial institutions carry collateral for any derivative they write, for example if a Credit Default Swap could potentially pay out $1 Million if a company defaults, the financial institution should have to keep that million in reserve (which they hate to do).

The best regulation is RISK. That means everyone plays with their own money. People who buy worthless mortgage backed securities suffer the consequences when their value goes to zero. Pension funds lose the money and have to answer to their employee unions, their managers are FIRED. A big part of our problems is this bailout entitlement, where there is an arbitrary "the loss stops here" mentality. This causes bad decisions to be reinforced, and bad money managers to double down (pension funds are now making even riskier bets to try to make up what was lost in 2008). Nothing will get better unless people have to suffer the consequences of their actions.

The boom-and-bust cycle is a simple consequence of easy money that gets misallocated. Money goes into investments that should never see the light of day, usually because of government subsidies (i.e. housing programs) and this creates a positive feedback loop in the price that always overshoots - because the price is based on projected price appreciation, not intrinsic value. When the market corrects, as it always does, this works in reverse. Sure there are losers who get "bought up" in this bust, but a fool and their money were lucky enough to get together in the first place. If you want to end (or at least minimize) this cycle, get rid of the Fed and let interest rates rise to the value the Market sets. The prime mover of the housing boom was when Bush pushed interest rates to near zero after Sept. 11. The spread between the prime rate and Fannie Mae bonds was close to 7%- guaranteed return, and of course it was far greater for sub prime. This was the updraft that caused bankers to lie, beg, borrow, steal, etc.


Captain...or Skully

climber
Where are you bound?

Oct 4, 2011 - 11:32am PT
I'd nuke it just to piss off the 'Tards.


Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...

Oct 4, 2011 - 11:35am PT
Right on Brandon, agree with the Cap'n... nuke it. Its good for the monkeys.

DMT
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2011 - 03:55pm PT
Sprock

hey karl, how many different girls have you slept with

If I slept with them, it means they're "different" But, like a private corporation, I don't publish my numbers

Peace

Karl
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 4, 2011 - 03:59pm PT
It's really funny that some people think the Tea Party protests are great but these are bad... LOL.

It's amazing to me that otherwise intelligent people can be so blinded and one sided.

The right wing loonies claim there is something wrong with these protests, but claim they want freedom of speech.. haha, only if it suits their interests.

I wish the Tea Partiers were more Libertarian than the lame old conservatives they of course turned out to be.

I wish these protests concentrated on the undue influence of money in our political systems and how most people are suffering but the very rich are doing better than every. But of course the left wing loonies will make it all about crazy unrelated stuff.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 4, 2011 - 04:01pm PT
But greed is good.


GOP GOP GOP GOP


BAHAHAWAHAHA
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 4, 2011 - 04:10pm PT
Greed is good.

And the fact that almost 10 million American kids under 6 years old aren't getting enough to eat is even better!

Ideologically I think you should be able to keep everything your earn. But practically what happens when the rich (top 0.1%) start controlling 99% of the wealth, and get richer and richer when everyone else gets poorer and poorer. Because that's were we are headed if current trends keep going. Is that what you want?

The interviews of protesters I have heard were with recent college graduates that can't find jobs and have huge students loans (more wealth concentration). But they are just lazy welfare recipients who just want the money from other people's hard work right?
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 4, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
ford will add 6000 jobs ,

20 million minus 6000 still equals 20 million if you round off to the nearest digit

woodie guthrie, gas up the van

Woodrow Wilson "Woody" Guthrie (July 14, 1912 – October 3, 1967) is best known as an American singer-songwriter and folk musician, whose musical legacy includes hundreds of political, traditional and children's songs, ballads and improvised works. He frequently performed with the slogan This Machine Kills Fascists displayed on his guitar. His best-known song is "This Land Is Your Land". Many of his recorded songs are archived in the Library of Congress.[1] Such songwriters as Bob Dylan, Phil Ochs, Bruce Springsteen, Pete Seeger, Joe Strummer, and Tom Paxton have acknowledged their debt to Guthrie as an influence.

Guthrie traveled with migrant workers from Oklahoma to California and learned traditional folk and blues songs. Many of his songs are about his experiences in the Dust Bowl era during the Great Depression, earning him the nickname the "Dust Bowl Troubadour".[2] Throughout his life Guthrie was associated with United States communist groups, though he was seemingly not a member of any.[3]

Guthrie was married three times and fathered eight children, including American folk musician Arlo Guthrie. He is the grandfather of musician Sarah Lee Guthrie.[4] Guthrie died from complications of Huntington's disease, a progressive genetic neurological disorder. During his later years, in spite of his illness, Guthrie served as a figurehead in the folk movement, providing inspiration to a generation of new folk musicians, including mentor relationships with Ramblin' Jack Elliott and Bob Dylan.

Woody Guthrie was inducted into the Oklahoma Music Hall of Fame in 1997.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 4, 2011 - 04:20pm PT

you are jesus
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
Rox, after this post it bumps to a whole new clean page and all good
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2011 - 04:41pm PT
Skip

Those who think that backing this two bit mob rule will ever get you anything other than people calling for beheading others are fooling yourselves.

We have seen where mob rule goes.


So non-violent protest is "Mob Rule" And just how is this different than those beloved Tea Party protests?

Fatty

So, you want to place zero blame on those that took out all of the credit and enjoyed the benefits?
???

Benefits like being underwater on your house and getting forclosed on anyway? They were the chumps that got sold. They are as much to blame as soldiers shot in the war are for foreign policy. THey signed up right?

PEace

Karl
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Oct 4, 2011 - 04:45pm PT
I can't see the point myself.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 4, 2011 - 04:54pm PT
stocks are up

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
Karl,

There were quite a few people warning the public against buying homes during the feeding frenzy, you here on this very forum. I did in my local paper, no, most of these people just made poor decisions and should honor their liabilities.

The evil one

I'm just saying I'm not putting them to "Blame" which is the word you used. They might have to honor their liabilities (or walk away from their homes, an option legally open to them just like BK is for companies) but they are no more to blame than the soldiers who signed up for a war on terrorists and wound up serving in Iraq which never attacked us.

Those guys are still obligated to Die if ordered to do dangerous duty in Iraq but that doesn't make it right nor does it excuse the lying cheating scumbags who sent them over there knowing it wasn't really about WMDs

The bankers pulled a scam due to greed and should be investigated more thoroughly, not just bailed out and continuing to pull in millions per year.

Peace

Karl
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 4, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
The bankers pulled a scam due to greed and should be investigated more thoroughly, not just bailed out and continuing to pull in millions per year.


That 'll never happen Barry's in bed with 'em.

and Eric is too busy trying to cover his own tracks anyway.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 4, 2011 - 06:49pm PT
Fatty,

TARP was only a small fraction of the bailout+stimulus. So no, it has not been paid back.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 4, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
I can't keep it straight.

Is Barry in bed with the fat cats and Wall Street OR in bed with the middle class?

I know it's "Class Warfare" somehow, but can't remember which O'Reilly says he is on today.


yesterday Obama was against the "job creators" (the wealthy), yet today he promotes class warfare by being FOR Wallstreet.


WHICH IS IT?


Doesn't matter which way it is spun, as long as I can say I am against whichever way the wind is blowing.
Mangy Peasant

Social climber
Riverside, CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 06:57pm PT
In the original Boston Tea Party, the tea that was destroyed belonged to a corporation: the East India Company.

A corporation that was protected and heavily subsidized by the British government.

Today's American "Tea Party" celebrates this event and have made it their representative symbol.

But today's "Tea Party" is on the side of government-supported corporations. They fight for the cause of the bankers and oil-companies - the modern-day equivalent of the East India Company.

The irony and ignorance is mind-boggling.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 4, 2011 - 07:09pm PT
The Repubs had the Presidency, the Senate AND the House from 2000-2006.

The economy went into RECESSION in 2007.

See the relationship?

FAIL
Mangy Peasant

Social climber
Riverside, CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 07:21pm PT
Care to tell me what the evil bankers received beyond TARP???????

You can't possibly mean Fannie/Freddie, those were overseen by the Dem congress.

Why can't he mean Fannie/Freddie? The bankers still received it, no matter who gave it to them (and it was a doosey!)

How 'bout loose monetary policy?

How 'bout Gramm–Leach–Bliley?

How 'bout an SEC that was asleep at the wheel?

How 'bout zero regulations on derivatives trading?

How 'bout AAA ratings on mortgage-backed securities?


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 07:25pm PT
I couldn't figure out if it was the usual anarchist suspects, or just brainwashed commies. Looks like the latter;

http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/


Why can't he mean Fannie/Freddie? The bankers still received it, no matter who gave it to them (and it was a doosey!)

How 'bout loose monetary policy?

How 'bout Gramm–Leach–Bliley?

How 'bout an SEC that was asleep at the wheel?

How 'bout zero regulations on derivatives trading?

How 'bout AAA ratings on mortgage-backed securities?

Yep, but you missed a couple too. Oh, and you're wrong about the more modern Tea Party. Not necessarily pro-corporation at all, just anti-big gov't and spending.


I'll repost the commie-brats in action photos again;
http://zombietime.com/day_of_fail/
Mangy Peasant

Social climber
Riverside, CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
Do you know what the acronym stands for?

T. E. A. : "Taxed Enough Already"

The modern tea party is about taxes. Why is that?

Who do you think benefits the most from lower taxes? Who do you think can afford to create a national political organization with the agenda of lowering taxes?

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/Peter-Fenn/2011/02/02/tea-party-funding-koch-brothers-emerge-from-anonymity
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123859296
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/opinion/29rich.html?pagewanted=all
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing

Spend a few million dollars on political "activism," receive a few billion in tax breaks. That's a pretty good return on investment.

Do you honestly fall for the notion that the Tea Party is a "grass roots" organization?

No way you could be such a chump.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
Do you know what the acronym stands for?

T. E. A. : "Taxed Enough Already"

While I agree with that acronym, it was co-opted. That is NOT the genesis of the current movement.

It was a Rick Santelli meltdown on one of the business channels. People who could not afford houses, or more importantly, chose mot to dive into a sketchy housing were paying for people who made stupid/greedy decisions without thought of consequence. It was a movement againt bailing these mortgages out at the expense of more prudent, or smarter, house shoppers.

The housing market was totally over-valued and had to crash, especially with unqualified people buying houses they could not afford.

I put most of the blame on Fannie/Freddie.

Here's the Santelli rant;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp-Jw-5Kx8k

From wiki;
He is also credited with being a catalyst in the early formation of the Tea Party movement via a statement he made on February 19, 2009
Mangy Peasant

Social climber
Riverside, CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 07:59pm PT
I know about the Santelli rant.

I've probably watched more CNBC than anybody here (not by choice, and BTW Maria Bartiromo has no f*#king clue what she's saying most of the time...)

But Santelli was complaining about bailing out consumers - individuals with mortgages, not Wall Street. He is Wall Street for cricksakes.

I actually agree with Santelli on the basic premise of his rant, but that's over and done.

But dude, you are being played. They know there are lots of guys like you out there that have disdain for "hippe/commies" and they totaly use it to dupe you. The Tea Party is not a grass roots organization - it is a phenomenom that has been carefully engineered by corporations and the political right.

They want you to vote for thier tax break. They might throw you a small bone in the form of lower taxes now but you'll pay for it ten times over when they take medicare away from your parents.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 08:11pm PT
You're wrong, Mangy. Maybe some of the Tea Party has been co-opted by poseurs like Dick Armey, but I talk to these people. They are middle-class WORKERS, not ditbags, who are fed up with expanding gov't, green bullshit that fails, and a gov't that thinks spending more money OF MINE is the key to fix shit!!!

And healthcare will be fine unless Obama continues to f*#k with it. I'm not worried, and my folks (baby-boomers) aren't worried. What worries them is Obama's plans for the future.

To say that I'm a chump for wanting less gov't spending and smaller gov't overhead cost is pretty disengenuous, and a f*#king lie. It's smart fiscal policy!

It's common sense.


I know about the Santelli rant.

I've probably watched more CNBC than anybody here (not by choice, and BTW Maria Bartiromo has no f*#king clue what she's saying most of the time...)

But Santelli was complaining about bailing out consumers - individuals with mortgages, not Wall Street. He is Wall Street for cricksakes.

I actually agree with Santelli on the basic premise of his rant, but that's over and done.

Well then you're formally disengenuous, or you're a liar. Which is it?

You claimed Tea Partiers were formed by a pro-corporatist sentiment. WTF?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 4, 2011 - 08:14pm PT
A Common Sense True American Patriot has spoken. No others have common sense, or are true American patriots.
Mangy Peasant

Social climber
Riverside, CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
To say that I'm a chump for wanting less gov't spending [...]


Spending on what exactly?

NPR?

Acorn?

Aren't you the guy that posts about how he gets a hard-on when he sees a $100 million dollar military plane?

Both NPR and Acorn got less funding than the cost of a single F-22. You know, that plane that the Air Force doesn't even want, but some folks wanted so badly to keep building?

Less government spending...right.

Obey your masters.




bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 08:37pm PT
Aren't you the guy that posts about how he gets a hard-on when he sees a $100 million dollar military plane?

Both got less funding than the cost of a single F-22. You know, that plane that the Air Force doesn't even want, but some folks wanted so badly to keep building?

What you fools don't understand that national defense is one of the few legit platforms of Federal Gov't responsibility. And yeah, we should stay ahead of the curve there.

As for PRIVATE spending, that is left to the free-market system. And yeah, it should be closely watched by the FED, another one of their mandates from the constitution.

I didn't hear the AF disliked the f-22 Raptor. Must be an Adml. Mullen type who dissed it.

Spending??? Obama's green sh#t is rotting!!!! How much did we give them??


Mangy, question;

How do you feel about the Dept of Energy? (Blew the Solyndra deal amonst others).

How about the Dept of Education?

Maybe we should cut back on Defense and encourage lifetime support of other bullshit that, frankly, is detrimental.

Wes, you're laregly unworthy of a reply. You're just a f*#king dick....

Mangy Peasant

Social climber
Riverside, CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 08:49pm PT
What you fools don't understand that national defense is one of the few legit platforms of Federal Gov't responsibility.

Really? Cite the part of the Constitution that says that.

We all know you never defended it. Have you ever even read it?

Must be an Adml. Mullen type who dissed it.

Yeah, must be one of those guys who has spent their entire life in the service of defending the United States. WTF?

Anyway, back to your Constitutional expertise. Let's see if you can cut and paste...



Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 4, 2011 - 09:00pm PT
No Jeff, you were a one dollar a year DEPUTY.

Why don't you get out your little certificate of appreciation.

It's Show and Tell time now!
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 4, 2011 - 09:11pm PT
I wish I could nuke this cockpageant too.

Grow up bitches.

And Blue, I love your passion but trying to argue a point after a couple of beers using other people's bullet points does not behove you. You seem like youd be a cool person in person, act it online man.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 4, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
What's dope got to do with this Fattrad?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
Anyway, back to your Constitutional expertise. Let's see if you can cut and paste...

You would accept anything less?
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2010/06/a-constitutional-basis-for-defense

And fatty, the JSF is a POS compared to the F-22.


Brandon, go jerk-off somewhere....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
And Blue, I love your passion but trying to argue a point after a couple of beers using other people's bullet points does not behove you. You seem like youd be a cool person in person, act it online man.


Point out where I'm incorrect in anything.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 4, 2011 - 09:37pm PT
I'm not in the mood to fact check your posting record, and my point was aimed more at the manner in which you convey a point. Posting with lots of !!!!!!!!!!'s and calling people names undermines the body of your statement. Try bucking the fanatical trend of forcing opinions without truly hearing and appreciating the counterpoint, and listen. Most of us listen to the counterpoint and form an opinion based on all the facts. I personally, try as much as I can to do that. I'm not telling you that your opinion is wrong, that defies logic, as all opinions are property of their owners. I'm just imploring you to listen a little more and think a little deeper before you type. Nobody's perfect, least of all me. I'm simply voicing an opinion.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 09:55pm PT
Brandon, my young friend, you too seem pretty personable.

However, if you choose to jump on the Wes-wagon and accuse me of being drunk and posting crap, you better be able to back that sh#t up, or else I'm gonna call you on it and throw some disparaging remarks back.

I don't tolerate fools lightly, nor rhetoric. I expect nothing less from others that debate here. If you can't take the heat...

I stand by all my remarks on this thread and the one you deleted. Again, nothing really personal, but be careful what you accuse me of. I will respond.

EDIT:
The only facts you need to know is that $66.7 billion in fighter jets that were introduced over 6 years ago is ESSENTIAL to protect us from terrorists who fly airliners into skyscrapers.


Unlike you, dipsh#t, we have smart minds in the military who think of the next realistic conflict. I'll let you contemplate that, genious.

Who could it be???

EDIT:
And $100 million is an OUTRAGEOUS amount to spend on public radio.


I agree. What's your point? Spend more money on Public Radio and less on national defense?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 4, 2011 - 10:17pm PT
Wow... I have said some pretty interesting and to the point sh#t on that thread....


Three cheers for Jingy for being right!!!!




(Other more right leaning pundits have weighed in with their jive-ass sh#t too... three boo's for the idiots)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 10:19pm PT
I don't know, who has oil?

We do, next guess?

Wow... I have said some pretty interesting and to the point sh#t on that thread....


Three cheers for Jingy for being right!!!!

Wow, man!!! Lift up yer skirt, bro, you have yer own cheerleaders!!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2011 - 10:20pm PT
BES1'st writes a scenario about his small business that wasn't a financial service business and wasn't a public corporation traded on wall street and then criticizes the protesters, whose beef HAS NOTHING TO DO with the kind of business he as in. Come on buddy, it's not about you and definitely not in support of government (both parties have been bought and sold to BIG corporations and money, not your operation, how big a check did you write to a politician?)

as for the defense Budget. Come on Bluering, how can you be for cutting spending when you defend defense spending when it has DOUBLED since 2001. On other hand, your taxes DID NOT double. In fact, they are less than 2001. Income tax rates went down, capital gains taxes went down. And yet you bitch about taxes and spending while leaving the fastest growing spending of all. You really think those third world terrorists will march down our streets if we don't spend as much as the rest of the world COMBINED on defense (which we do)

Here's why the Military (Secretary Gates, originally appointed by George Bush and kept on by that partisan commie Obama, doesn't want the f-22

http://articles.philly.com/2009-07-09/news/25290122_1_fighter-plane-f-22-fighter-jet

The F-22 is the most capable air-to-air fighter in the Air Force inventory. Yet it has only limited air-to-ground attack capabilities, which makes it unsuitable for today's counter-insurgency operations. In fact, the F-22 has never been used in either Iraq or Afghanistan. It was designed to fight next-generation Soviet fighters that never materialized, and, as Defense Secretary Robert Gates has noted, it is nearly useless for irregular warfare.

The F-22 has no known enemy. It is the most advanced fighter plane in the world, and there are no other planes that could threaten its supremacy in air-to-air combat. The United States already has 187 F-22s on hand or on order - a silver-bullet force that is more than adequate to deal with any likely contingency. In fact, Gates said that even if he had $50 billion more to spend, he would not buy any more F-22s.

Left wing pinko peacenik John McCain agrees

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2009/07/mccain_allies_w.html

Peace

Karl
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 10:31pm PT
The F-22 has no known enemy. It is the most advanced fighter plane in the world, and there are no other planes that could threaten its supremacy in air-to-air combat. The United States already has 187 F-22s on hand or on order - a silver-bullet force that is more than adequate to deal with any likely contingency. In fact, Gates said that even if he had $50 billion more to spend, he would not buy any more F-22s.

To say it has no current role is stupid, and some mil-intelligengece dudes know this. That is why we're somewhat happy with the fleet we have.

The plane is an air-superiority work of technical genius. It shot down 6 f-15's (previous air super-powers) in trials. The f-15 pilots couldn't even see them on radar as the F-22's attacked.

187 may be enough. I'll give you that. But do not dispute the power and future effectiveness of this craft. It WAS money well spent. Not against current campaigns, but future ones. We always look ahead, as we should.

Also, the F-22 technology will lead to better sh#t.

The F-35 is a plane designed to sell to NATO as part of the MIC (military industrial complex). Big mistake. They are giving NATO our secret weapon. Stealth tech.


EDIT: Karl, McCain is an ass.
WBraun

climber
Oct 4, 2011 - 10:37pm PT
The plane is an air-superiority work of technical genius.

The common house fly can easily out maneuver any plane.

It is far superior and the work of a real genius.

Modern materialistic man is only a crude imitator ......
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2011 - 10:37pm PT
Ever hear this speech by Charlie Chaplin?

http://youtu.be/NZpcEGxM9XY

Think about it

Peace

Karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2011 - 10:50pm PT
Let me put this another way Bluering. You say you're against all this government debt.

What if every percent that military spending went up, your taxes went up to pay for it. So double your 2001 tax bill.

Still for more F-22 fighters?

Peace

Karl
Saugy

Mountain climber
BC
Oct 4, 2011 - 10:53pm PT
http://youtu.be/NZpcEGxM9XY

...and thats what Occupy Wall Street is all about...isnt it?

And the Arab Spring?
And rioting punks in U.K.?

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2011 - 10:55pm PT
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/10/04-4

Reposted from Rueters


Citi, BofA Cut Workers After US Tax Holiday-Report
Report singles out 10 companies for cutting jobs

Ten major U.S. corporations, including big banks Citigroup Inc and Bank of America Corp, laid off workers after enjoying a tax holiday in 2004-2005 that had been billed as a form of economic stimulus, said a report released on Tuesday.

With large multinational companies today pressing Congress for another tax holiday, the Institute for Policy Studies reported that the last one did not fulfill its rosy promises for hundreds of thousands of U.S. workers.

Fifty-eight corporations that accounted for 70 percent of overseas profits repatriated under the 2004-2005 tax break collectively saved $64 billion in taxes, then cut 600,000 jobs through layoffs, the report said.....

and there you have it. Why "cutting corporate taxes and giving them breaks equals new jobs" is horseshyit!

.
...Large companies are lobbying again for such a tax break, which would let them repatriate much if not all of an estimated $1.5 trillion in overseas profits for well below the full 35-percent corporate income tax rate.

Legislation in the Republican-controlled U.S. House of Representatives would let them repatriate those profits at 5.25 percent, the same tax rate given to them under a similar tax holiday during the Bush administration.

Just as they are doing now, companies six years ago said that the repatriation tax break would boost jobs and the economy. But the institute said this did not happen, as earlier academic studies have also found.



Peace

Karl
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 4, 2011 - 11:01pm PT
Bluerags incessant "leghumping".... What a panzie


"Wow, man!!! Lift up yer skirt, bro, you have yer own cheerleaders!!"


Blahblahblah.... Pointless meanderings from a routine head in the ass righty....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 11:04pm PT
What if every percent that military spending went up, your taxes went up to pay for it. So double your 2001 tax bill.

Still for more F-22 fighters?

First, that's a what if???

Second, I already said we have a good supply of F-22's. The F-18 is a solid platform too. Why share the F-35 with NATO and spend all that cash?

F*#k the F-35. Let's roll with our fleet of F-22's, and we have to build more plane, build F-18's?

Our air force is pretty solid right now. We only need to replace what is decommissioned. Not a lot.

Next...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 4, 2011 - 11:26pm PT
Reposting this for more to see . . .


Oct 4, 2011 - 06:01am PT
Want to know the background of what happened to us financially?

Want to know why people are marching and protesting?

Inside Job - Download the FULL Movie
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xekoka_inside-job-download-the-full-movie_shortfilms

Good short review of the movie:
http://www.sbs.com.au/films/movie/7817/Inside-Job-

If you haven't seen this movie yet, then you must. There were 2 9-11s. One near the beginning of Bush's time in office and then the economic 9-11 right at the end. Gee, both on his watch. Who would of thunk? What are the odds of that?




murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Oct 5, 2011 - 12:09am PT
In case this hasn't been posted yet:

http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 5, 2011 - 12:36am PT
Mangy Peasant

Social climber
Riverside, CA
Oct 5, 2011 - 07:27am PT
That fly was going 550 miles per hour! That is one fast f*#king fly bro.

And the passengers were walking that fast when they got up to go to the bathroom.


couchmaster

climber
pdx
Oct 5, 2011 - 11:30am PT
Let me put this another way Bluering. You say you're against all this government debt. What if every percent that military spending went up, your taxes went up to pay for it. So double your 2001 tax bill.

Karl, can't we just keep borrowing the money from the Chinese and let our kids deal with it? It's their tax bill....and we don't need to worry about that do we? Let us keep spending like drunken sailors my brobhams!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2011 - 11:43am PT
That fly was going 550 miles per hour! That is one fast f*#king fly bro.

And the passengers were walking that fast when they got up to go to the bathroom.

and they both are rocking 66,600 miles per hour around the sun, and our whole shebang is traveling like 558,000 miles per hour around the Milky way. Good thing there's nothing standing still out there to get in our way!

Peace

Karl
WBraun

climber
Oct 5, 2011 - 11:53am PT
The modern stupid materialists make a crude imitation mechanical death bird.

Killing machine this F-22.

They think they're advanced.

Yes they have advanced very well going backwards into the stone age wasting everyone's hard earned money and worlds resources to throw rocks at each other.

Stupid people.

Meanwhile half the world is bereft of a basic decent life .......
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Oct 5, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
Too bad about the original thread it had saliency some in places which is about the most you can hope for on the internetz when the talk is political.

Put me in the austerity camp as a way out of this mess, but now that we’re in QE3 (the Twist is how their hyping that) it looks like the Krugmanites (is it any wonder that he’s Bernanke’s old roommate?) have their hands on the wheel of the USA economy.

It’s been suggested that the occupation of Wall Street is the start of a progressive equivalent of the tea party; we’ll see. Bongos and placards only get you so far. Anonymous is perhaps the wildcard, but 3 years ago those clowns were mostly going after Boxxy and Applemilk1988 on YT and it’s hard to believe that there is any genuine political conscience in those joker hackers.

The most relevant chart in the old thread was this one:
I’d add this one which is a chart of Inflation on the Consumer Price Index over time with the government issued CPI number, which was tweaked in both the Reagan and Clinton administrations in contrast to a calculated change in CPI as it was calculated in 1980, collated by shadowstats.com.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2011 - 03:41pm PT
I think some austerity is in order but it's going to require some austerity on the part of the wealthy in coughing up some dough in tax increases because it's plain from the history of increasing debt that politicians have bought votes by lowering taxes again and again without commensurate spending cuts. Now we are at a point where no amount of reasonable spending cuts brings us to a balanced budget

And we have to beware of the flip side. What does serious austerity mean? It means cutting people's jobs. Those people become unemployed and that many unemployed will mean a LOT of long term unemployment. That means more folks needing government services and also money taken out of the economy and tax base as well.

Let 'em eat cake? Even the rich don't want a revolution. Imagine lots of unemployed people, thrown off unemployment by the government, facing foreclosures, even homelessness. Hardly the bright future the GOP promises with minimum government and taxes.

PEace

Karl
dirtbag

climber
Oct 5, 2011 - 06:47pm PT
Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz of Columbia University gave the New York protests a lift on Sunday with a speech that has been making the rounds via Youtube. Because the protesters were prohibited from using a megaphone, he paused in between lines for the crowd that had gathered around him to repeat his words more loudly. He told the protesters they were doing the right thing by standing up to Wall Street:

"You are right to be indignant. The fact is the system is not working right. It is not right that we have so many people without jobs when we have so many needs that we have to fulfill. It’s not right that we are throwing people out of their houses when we have so many homeless people."

"Our financial markets have an important role to play. They’re supposed to allocate capital, manage risks. But they misallocated capital, and they created risk. We are bearing the cost of their misdeeds. There’s a system where we’ve socialized losses and privatized gains. That’s not capitalism; that’s not a market economy. That’s a distorted economy, and if we continue with that, we won’t succeed in growing, and we won't succeed in creating a just society."



http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2011/10/05/occupy_wall_street_stiglitz_lessig_west_lend_protests_intellectu.html
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 5, 2011 - 07:08pm PT
The Fixx - How Much Is Enough?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xcuGBQWswg

How much is enough?

Good enough, is not good enough
Don't complain that you've got it tough
With all you have, your life's a bore
Can't relax, you want so much more
Blind needs won't set you free
Can't you see that time is slipping away?
But I got to say
How much is enough? When your soul is empty
How much is enough? In the land of plenty
When you have all you want and you still feel nothing at all
How much is enough, is enough
Gravity may bring you down
But harmony could spin you 'round
Information ariel says buy buy buy material
Give take all day long
Can't you see it's hopeless being strong When you live it wrong?
How much is enough? When your soul is empty
How much is enough? In the land of plenty
When you have all you want and you still feel nothing at all
How much is enough? How much is enough?
Buy buy buy, buy buy buy
So give me your attention, I know it's getting late
While we were dreaming, something slipped away
We're drowning in possessions, playing tricks with our minds
Lost from one another, baby put your hand in mine
Time is slipping away, but it's not too late
How much is enough? When your soul is empty
How much is enough? In the land of plenty
When you have all you want and you still feel nothing at all
How much is enough? How much is enough? How much is enough?
When you have all you want and you still feel nothing at all
How much is enough? How much is enough? How much is enough?
How much is enough? How much is enough? How much is enough?

Read more: THE FIXX - HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH LYRICS

http://www.metrolyrics.com/how-much-is-enough-lyrics-the-fixx.html#ixzz1ZvxCkiXX
Copied from MetroLyrics.com




The Fixx - No one has to cry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74dlhTr9H50


As I wake today, same as yesterday
I get in my car, poor, turn my wheels
So much to say, who's got time to listen
Fulfill our dreams, shame is left unseen
Why should someone lose so that I get by?
Why should someone pay just to send me high?
No one has to cry while I can smile
No one owns the sky, so blue above you
But somewhere in this world is a field where we all play
Secrets in your eyes, no one has to cry
There's no self-control as we play our roles
It's all dog eat dog, we're all dressed for show
As we plot and scheme full of American dreams
Who says it's fair who gets the opportunities?
There are some who live without so that I get by
They pay the price for doubtin' just to send me high
No one has to cry while I can smile
No one owns the sky, so blue above you
'Cause somewhere in this world is a field where we all play
Secrets in your eyes, no one has to cry
No one has to, oh, no
Why should someone lose so that I get by?
Or pay the price for doubting just to send me high?
No one has to cry while I can smile
No one owns the sky, so blue above you
'Cause somewhere in this world is a field where we all play
Secrets in your eyes no one has to cry
No one, no one, no one has to cry
'Cause somewhere in this world is a feeling we possess
Secrets in your eyes no one has to cry
No one, no one, no one has to cry
No one, no one, no one has to cry, no one has to cry

Read more: THE FIXX - NO ONE HAS TO CRY LYRICS

http://www.metrolyrics.com/no-one-has-to-cry-lyrics-the-fixx.html#ixzz1Zw1kfPiY
Copied from MetroLyrics.com

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 6, 2011 - 01:45am PT
Keith Olbermann Reads The Statement Released By The Wall Street Protesters - 2011-10-05
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x622161

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8o3peQq79Q


http://www.nationofchange.org/declaration-occupation-new-york-city-1317784408
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2011 - 02:53am PT
If you confiscated every single dime from every single billionaire in America you couldn't cover all the debt our government will rack up this year

fine Skip. Let's totally slash the military by 70% and just threaten to Bomb the crap, even nuke, anybody who seriously threatens our country. If allies want protection, they have to pay for it. It's the military budget that's DOUBLED since 2001, not the medicare budget or the Social Security expenses, they didn't double. The military did and we were already spending more on our military than any country in the world by far.

Are you guys so chicken that your really have to be able to destroy the world 100x over instead of just 10x?

That's less risky than gutting our schools and elderly

Peace

Karl
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 6, 2011 - 03:36am PT
UC Davis
1973

tuition: $212.50 per quarter

which was picked up by the state scholarship program,

total tuition: 0

nowadays, you are just a slave to citibank for tens of thousands plus interest
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 6, 2011 - 03:39am PT
The Board of Regents for the University of California (UC) has proposed to raise tuition by up to 16 percent a year over the next four years. The increases would bring tuition to $22,000 for the 2015-2016 school year. Adding campus fees, room and board, and books and supplies brings the total cost of a four-year bachelor’s degree program to a staggering $160,000.

UC President Mark Yudof claims the extreme increases are needed to meet the projected $2.5 billion shortfall in the current UC budget. The alternatives, according to Yudof, are increasing the number of higher paying out-of-state students—decreasing the enrollment of California students—or eliminating classes. Although several regents loudly opposed raising tuition, they offered no serious counterproposals.

One regent, Lieutenant Governor Gavin Newsom, suggested a new tax dedicated to the state colleges and universities, but his regressive proposal is little more than demagoguery given the opposition of the financial oligarchy to any significant increase in social spending.

Since coming to office, Democratic Governor Jerry Brown has approved a budget that may cut almost $3 billion from education. An earlier plan to raise taxes primarily targeting the state’s poor was scrapped due to lack of support.

While Democrats control both houses of the state legislature, not a single politician has proposed raising taxes on the wealthy to preserve social funding. Currently only 11 percent of UC’s $22 billion budget is paid for by the state of California.

Richard Blum, a UC regent and the multimillionaire spouse of Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein, has called for a turn toward outright privatization. “I’ve been watching this for 10 years, it has essentially been a waste of our time to beat on governors and legislators,” Blum told reporters on Friday. “Where is the money? It’s in the private sector, with corporations and with wealthy individuals.”

At the same time that programs are cut and tuition soars, the Board of Regents has approved several bonuses to already highly compensated administrators. The largest of these, $744,950, was given to UC chief investment officer Marie Berggren, bringing her total annual compensation to $1.2 million. The bonus was required by her contract due to a better than expected performance of the UC’s $70 billion endowment.

Similarly, on Thursday the board approved a $259,000 raise for UC Davis Medical Center CEO Ann Madden Rice, bringing her base pay to $960,000 a year. Using the same justification as the bailed-out banks to defend exorbitant CEO pay, the Board of Regents claims these huge paychecks are needed to stay competitive and retain “talent.”

Significantly, most of the highest paid UC employees head programs such as sports or medical centers, which generate large amounts of money. Blum’s push for corporate intervention would only accelerate the current trend of cutting programs that do not make money and concentrating wealth on the programs that do.

Financial aid programs like the Pell Grant are facing cuts of their own, deepening the crises for students from lower and middle-income families. Under these circumstances, young people will be forced to either quit college, or take out gargantuan loans.

These debts burden working class families for decades. Already by June of last year, student loans exceeded credit card debt in the US for the first time.

Unlike credit card debt, student loans cannot be discharged in bankruptcy and there is no statute of limitations for repayment. As tuition rises and the job market remains stagnant, far more students will find themselves in cycle of debt they cannot escape. In 2009 the percentage of people who defaulted on their student loans within two years of entering repayment rose from 7 percent to 8.8 percent.

There is no longer any significant section of the bourgeoisie that views public education as crucial to society. In bourgeois politics the only important question now is whether students will be employable.

Indicative of this is the Los Angeles Times’ coverage of State Senate Bill 547, which would loosen high school standards for producing college-ready graduates. A recent editorial, for example, states, “not all students are interested in attending college, and not all of them should.” Rather, what is needed is an education system that primarily trains students to “qualify for a satisfying and well-paid job.” Nowhere is it suggested that education is important to a person’s quality of life or the social fabric of society.

Students and their families must reject the position that they must either become indentured servants or beg from the rich—or perhaps do both—to get a basic education. Free, quality education from pre-school through university is a fundamental social right, which must be fought for on the basis of an independent socialist perspective.



bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 6, 2011 - 06:49am PT
van jones says libs should emulate the tea party, but i suppose we have to expect libs to behave like libs...


http://www.myfoxny.com//dpp/news/occupy-wall-street-protest-broadens-scope-20111005


still waiting for video evidence of violence at a tea party protest



Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2011 - 10:21am PT
UC Davis
1973

tuition: $212.50 per quarter

which was picked up by the state scholarship program,

total tuition: 0

nowadays, you are just a slave to citibank for tens of thousands plus interest

not only that but the banks have it worked out with the politicians that the Government GUARANTEES to the banks that the students will repay the loans and then NOBODY can declare bankruptcy on student loans, even after 50 years. So better not flunk out of medical school (or get sick bad) halfway through or you're hosed for maybe life!

If the gov is going to guarantee it. why not loan the money themselves and make bank on it?

Peace

Karl
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 6, 2011 - 05:17pm PT
not only that but the banks have it worked out with the politicians that the Government GUARANTEES to the banks that the students will repay the loans and then NOBODY can declare bankruptcy on student loans, even after 50 years.

I think Obama put a 20 year limit on payback, and the amount you have to pay back every year is a small fraction of your monthly pay. The downside is rates are sky-high, usually about 10%, even when the prime rate is 0%.

This will cause more people to take out bigger loans without a thought of having to pay them back, and will allow Universities to raise prices even higher. Politicians then want more money for student loans, and the cycle continues unabated.
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 6, 2011 - 05:46pm PT
This Revolution against Our dysfunctional Right Wing Government, that only works for the 1% has been in works since Reagan wrecked America

I'm joining in

The Tea Baggers have even joined in, they got smart and figured out that they were on the wrong side, and were just helping the Rich (Koch Bros) take over.


Yeah, the Unions are trying to hijack it now too, how long before Obama is marching on Wall Street in a desperate effort to be re-elected?

Everyone involved is a puppet for failed Government policy. The Obama administration is giddy that people actually believe a handful of Corporate types will take the blame for the mess our economy is in, and they can keep getting kickbacks while pushing financial "reform" that addresses such issues as overdraft fees, etc. What a joke. We deserve better than that.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 6, 2011 - 11:36pm PT
All just "tea party"envy by the unwashed mob and their puppeteers.

They are just a mob,


incapable of elucidating anything coherent.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 6, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
TGT, whatever.




It is gaining momentum.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Where are you bound?
Oct 6, 2011 - 11:39pm PT
Why do you people hate rocks?
I like rocks.
'Tards, not so much.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 6, 2011 - 11:46pm PT
Yes, but...their theme--that there are a lot of people in suits getting away with f*#king up the economy while the middle class suffers--is spot on. We'll see what develops...

sac

Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
Oct 7, 2011 - 11:38am PT
Maybe it's time for a...

TAKEOVER!!

I and I gon CHANGE THE MOOD!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7pl3Q8ofJ0










Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 7, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
Wall Street Protests:


In the first act, bankers took advantage of deregulation to run wild (and pay themselves princely sums), inflating huge bubbles through reckless lending. In the second act, the bubbles burst — but bankers were bailed out by taxpayers, with remarkably few strings attached, even as ordinary workers continued to suffer the consequences of the bankers’ sins. And, in the third act, bankers showed their gratitude by turning on the people who had saved them, throwing their support — and the wealth they still possessed thanks to the bailouts — behind politicians who promised to keep their taxes low and dismantle the mild regulations erected in the aftermath of the crisis.

Given this history, how can you not applaud the protesters for finally taking a stand?
PK
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 7, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
Jeff,

Well based on what you have put forth, it makes absolutely no sense for us to engage in discussion. I don't agree with any of those assessments which you have offered but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. For my part, I am only interested in having debates with people who are not overtly hostile and genuinely wish to look at the various issues. If you perceive me in the light you have outlined, then, of course, you WILL be hostile. You would be unable to meet my criteria for having non-hostile interaction as a requisite for discussion.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 7, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
Jeff,

I do wish to thank you for sharing your perceptions, thus clearing up this matter. It certainly does explain a whole lot of that which here-to-fore made no sense to me. Continued interaction would be pointless and would likely generate nothing but additional hostility. There would be no realistic prospect of us ever achieving any meeting of the minds. In fact, discussion would foster both of us to invest time and energy into patently negative pursuits. Doing so would certainly not represent a positive use of our respective life energies. If it is all the same to you, then, regarding future discussions between us, I shall simply pass.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 7, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
Jeff,

I am sorry you perceive it that way but I see it differently. When I come in from outdoor work and check in only to find a HUGE number of extremely emotional vitriolic posts directed specifically at me over the span of a but few hours, I become concerned. Moreover, this was not the first time it has happened. It is happening more and more frequently - long posts and numerous posts directly in a very emotional tone specifically at me. It is not a situation wherein he posts one comment which is "heated" and then waits for me to return to reply to it. I am noticing a pattern of escalating vitriol and it is directed at me. I do not feel this pattern is healthy for any of the parties involved and accordingly I have asked Ken not to specifically engage me in these discussions. I do not feel that request is unreasonable.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 7, 2011 - 02:25pm PT
Hey Jeff, its Show and Tell time!

Why don't you post up your high school diploma?
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 7, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
They socialized risk and privatized profits.


I hope the Tea Party joins the protests.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 7, 2011 - 04:35pm PT
The dupes (TGT, bookworm, skipt, bluering) who believe the Occupiers all want hand outs or are anti-American or anti-capitalist are unbelievably naive. I think Fattrad is at least honest about his greed.


The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Cliché, sure, but it's also more true than at any time since the Gilded Age.
The poor are getting poorer, wages are falling behind inflation, and social mobility is at an all-time low.
If you're in that top 1%, life is grand.

http://www.businessinsider.com/15-charts-about-wealth-and-inequality-in-america-2010-4

You always hear about how the bottom 50% pays no taxes (which I agree is lame, they should pay a low percentage) but they never say the bottom 50% only has 2.5% of the wealth. Wonder why?

Normalized to 1979, the top 1% have seen their share of America's income more than double. The bottom 90% have seen their portion shrink.

It's not "fair" for the govt to take from the rich and give to the poor, but is it "fair" for the rich to get richer and richer and live off accumulated wealth while the other 99% gets worse and worse off? Do we really want a country of Paris Hiltons and everyone else?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 7, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 7, 2011 - 04:47pm PT
TGT Are you in the top 1% and being dishonest about this being about socialism, or are you really gullible enough to believe what your masters tell you? Because it's either one of the other.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 7, 2011 - 04:53pm PT
The tax rate for income above $250,000 going from 35% to 39.6% isn't socialism.

The tax rate for capital gains (money you didn't work for, but was made off existing wealth) going up from 15% is not socialism. This one would hurt me, but I'm not enough of a selfish prick to think I should pay less tax from making money off of wealth than people do for working.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 7, 2011 - 05:19pm PT
Fattrad,

I don't know or care who Alinsky is but I do know Obama's policies:

Obama ≠ Socialist

What's really sad is both the Repubes or the DRats haven't proposed a balanced budget for any point in the future. We really need cuts like the Repubes want and to raise taxes like the DRats and we'd get to a balanced budget. But no one has the guts to admit it.
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 7, 2011 - 06:29pm PT
"The People" were stupid enough to take the loans.

and, the taxpayer loans have been paid back.

Good point.

First, I don't see the logic of this movement. If you believe a that a private company can pay their CEOs whatever they want (and if you don't, you should move to Cuba), then the only thing you can complain about is that these companies took TARP money. In that case the Teapartiers had it right, the TARP money should not have been given out (even though as Fattrad says most of it has been paid back). The Tea partiers at least knew that the TARP would go towards CEO bonuses. These people were broadsided by this apparently and now they are applalled, so basically this is a naive Tea Party.

Second, what about the counterparties here? As fatty mentioned, millions took out loans that they knew they couldn't pay back, hoping to make fast money in the Real Estate mania. Now they are staying in houses they have NEVER had equity in for as many as 3 years without making payments, and gleefully trashing the place on exit. Bank of America alone is sitting on about $100 Billion in bad loans, while most homeowners skate.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 7, 2011 - 06:31pm PT


Over TWO THIRDS of our National Debt was added under Republican Presidents.

DUH
OR

Trad climber
Oct 7, 2011 - 06:54pm PT
I love the " List of Demands" and the corresponding "Manifesto". Its the worst movement/protester cliche out there. I believe they have a right to protest and although misguided, are on to something though. The first time some of these people created a list of demands and a manifesto was over the lack of vegeterian options in the freshman cafeteria at Brown.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 7, 2011 - 07:02pm PT
What's really sad is both the Repubes or the DRats haven't proposed a balanced budget for any point in the future.


Kinda true. Since the Repubs took the House this year though, THEY HAVE offered balanced budgets but they were shot down in the Senate by Reid et al....

Oh, and many in these mobs self-identify as socialists and commies. Ever seen their demands?

They're backtracking on it now like typical commies.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 7, 2011 - 07:11pm PT
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 7, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
Care to list the specific charges and prosecution results? ^^^^^^^ ?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 7, 2011 - 08:10pm PT
Care to list the specific charges and prosecution results?

The probe is still underway, but you're smart enough to realize what they're probing.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 7, 2011 - 08:37pm PT
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 7, 2011 - 08:49pm PT
No Blue, I am not as smart as you.

Why don't either you or TGT list the specific charges and prosecution results.

Seriously, I need your deep intellect and experience with corruption on this.

LIST THE CHARGES AND PROSECUTION RESULTS.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 7, 2011 - 08:52pm PT
I'm going to dinner. Later....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 8, 2011 - 08:59am PT
A response to Bill Ayers from one of his neighbors.

You can sum up the "manifesto" of the 99%ers in three main statements:

1. I am absolutely entitled to be happy, stress free, anxiety free, perfectly healthy, well-rested, and entertained every waking minute of my life, and if I can't pay for these things myself (for whatever reasons, including laziness and incompetence on my part) it is the responsibility of everyone else to do so.

2. If anything happens that all of these conditions aren't met, then it is the primary police, regulatory, and tax-policy responsibility of government - and the primary obligation of taxpayers - to see that they are restored immediately.

3. If these things aren't restored immediately, then I will use whatever means -- electoral or violent -- to smash anyone or any business who is better off than I am.

My response to these as follows:

1. There is no right to happiness. Only its pursuit. You are not entitled to a materially excellent, stress free, exciting life. Nobody who has ever lived is entitled to this. When you adopt the attitude that it is ultimately the responsibility not of yourself but of some agency outside of yourself to provide you with material satisfaction and happiness and freedom from anxiety, you void your humanity. The default condition of humans throughout millions of years of history is hungry, stressed, and in need of sleep. Until the past few decades in the Western and Westernized world and with a free market, capitalistic system, this is how most people lived. The capitalist system you all seem to hate also had some of this stress and is far from perfect, but it is the only one that gave people an opportunity (not a guarantee, an OPPORTUNITY) to do something about it. It's not my fault that your politically correct history teachers imbued with leftist agendas failed to teach you any of this, or that your demagoguing leftist politicians were dishonest about what were historical norms in terms of what to expect out of life.

2. The primary purpose of government is to guarantee civil rights (negative rights, not positive economic ones), be an impartial judge in civil matters, provide equal access to energy and commerce, and then get the hell out of the way and let people sink or soar based upon their native skills, work ethic, and the value of their particular work at whatever the existing level of technology might be. Period. It is NOT to make sure that you have enough money for all the trinkets and outward signs of success and status. Not to free up money that you would have spent on medical care so you can have a new car by taking that medical money from your neighbor who earns more than you do. Not to put in regulations which guarantee your job security and income security at bulletproof levels. We've had governments that are like that in the last hundred years or so. Review them and their histories and their human rights legacy and then decide which is best, that way or this one.

3. It's true that there was much malfeasance on Wall Street. The bad actors should go to jail. But everyone on Wall Street isn't bad, and Wall Street is only a tiny fraction of the business community. It is insanity to paint all business people with a broad brush as you do and want to crush them with protests and support politicians who promote a ridiculous level of regulation. Smash business and your wealthier neighbors and you will destroy any opportunity for yourself. Everyone can't have a good paying public sector job with great benefits where you don't have to work very hard and can retire at 58. And what jobs there are that are like that will not be increasing in number as time goes by, given the obvious failure of the big-government welfare/nanny/hyperregulatory state. Success in the private sector requires that you learn to manage stress. That you purge envy from your life. Learn to multitask. Learn to work within a hierarchy even if you aren't at the top. Learn that your are valuable to your boss if you need to be told how to do something only once and learn and retain it forever (something you would certainly demand if you were boss). Learn that you may have to move and make other sacrifices in order to be somewhere where your skills are in demand. Learn that you may not get all the material things you want quickly and at once. Learn to be happy with whatever pay rate your neighbors and community have decided your labor or product is worth on a free market . The very fact that you're in this protest and failing to thrive, and that other young people are doing well and happy with less education and even lower pay than you, is prima facie evidence that you have not learned at least one and possibly several of these necessary things. It's not the fault of George Bush or businesspeople or devout Christians or Republicans - or Democrats, even. It's your own deficits, or your own stubbornness.

Beyond these specific things, there are other points I would make.

Your anger and efforts would be better directed at the (largely government) education system. In this you have been ill-served. It is overpriced, staffed primarily with people who aren't there to be excellent but to get thirty years of guaranteed pay and a pension, who are not at all averse to using the bully pulpit they possess to propagandize instead of teach and conveniently forget to mention aspects of philosophies or historical facts that blow holes in their narrative, and their marketing of their services with respect to ultimate financial expectations has been largely dishonest. If you didn't fit in exactly to their expectations or were difficult to teach they would put you on Ritalin or some other drugs. That said, nobody forced you to go deeply into debt for an "education" that is more often an indoctrination with no guarantees of a marketable skill.

Likewise, your parents did you no favors. They had you play soccer in leagues that didn't keep score and gave trophies to all the teams regardless of how good or bad they were, shielding you from the concept of winning and losing, the notion that not everyone has the same skill set, and the idea that actions have consequences. They supported the notion of getting rid of class rank for valedictorian, got rid of physical education and home economics and recess. They filled you with the poisonous notion of outcome egalitarianism, the greatest lie of all.

The minute you were "unhappy" your parents brought you to the doctor and put you on happy pills. They bubble wrapped you so you would never be hurt or suffer consequences for bad actions or words. They insisted you go to college instead of getting a trade because they wanted to impress everyone with how awesome they were as parents as evidenced by sending all their kids to college.

Your media and information industry failed you, getting you to think that supporting Obama in 2008 was a blow against Wall Street by not reporting that Wall Street gave him five times more money than McCain. Protesting Wall Street but not Obama is illogical but understandable if you aren't aware of his campaign finance connections. (If you know about them and are still protesting Wall Street but not Obama, you're a hypocrite.)

However, your biggest failure is to yourself. Whatever people or circumstances led you to believe that you deserve to have perfect, stress free happiness and everything you wanted or the government would get it for you, they were wrong, and so are you. Want to be successful and ultimately happy? You'll need to learn that you will have to sacrifice much in the short term. You'll be best friends with the concept of delayed gratification. You'll have to learn to deal with high stress levels, lack of sleep, and lack of material status among peers, not for a few hours or a day or two but for weeks or months or years. You'll learn to exist not being fully happy for extended times in your life -- without happy pills. You'll learn that there are things in life that make you happy like religion, community, volunteer work, and so many other things that have nothing to do with pay.

You'll learn to deal with all of this with dignity and a sense of humor, not pouty aggrieved entitlement.

Or you'll fail utterly and cosmically deserve to fail, regardless of what happens to Wall Street.

Occupying Wall Street isn't the solution.

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=331230&D=2011-10-08&SO=&HC=4
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Oct 8, 2011 - 10:12am PT
If anyone nails it it's this dude;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mAUQYn6DjM&feature=email

Cheers
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 8, 2011 - 10:53am PT
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046586/Occupy-Wall-Street-Shocking-photos-protester-defecating-POLICE-CAR.html

great...


EDIT: Norton, probes currently underway are Fast & Furious/Operation Gunrunner, and Solyndra.

There are talks of probing his drone-zapping a known US citizen w/o trial too.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 8, 2011 - 12:23pm PT

photos from DailyMail

the goat

climber
north central WA
Oct 8, 2011 - 01:17pm PT
College graduate protesters who can't find jobs are probably ones with social science and arts degrees. Double E's and other engineering degrees are in high demand around these parts. How many "environmental science" degrees can this economy carry, probably very few.

Bring down wall street and really watch the s#*t hit the fan.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 8, 2011 - 01:19pm PT
Cenk Uygur: Corporate media tried to ignore Occupy Wall Street
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x622924

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNQhxNVJoDQ

* OFFICIAL Occupy America BLOG - 2011.10.06 *
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2066540

Occupy Wall Street has become a real threat to the establishment and many believe this is why, you the viewer, are not getting the latest in coverage. First the media didn't want to cover it, then with the hundreds of the arrest many felt they had to. Cenk Uygur, host of The Young Turks, gives us his thoughts.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 8, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
There are homeless people that poop on the streets everyday.

What's your point?

Perhaps you have a job, home, and a nice bathroom that you get to use at your convenience and in private everyday.

Some people don't. Why don't we help them?









The Fixx: "How Much is Enough?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xcuGBQWswg


The Fixx: "No one has to cry"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74dlhTr9H50


The Bible on the Poor or, Why God is a liberal
http://www.zompist.com/meetthepoor.html
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 8, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
I'm not making excuses for Obama.

He should of have been doing more.

It's not too late for him to begin to do what he said he would do.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 8, 2011 - 01:39pm PT
Skipt writes:

"The Wall Street Squatters have nothing but a bunch of sh#t to offer."


That guy is squatting to piss.

He has to squat to piss, because he's wearing zip-up-the-back pants.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 8, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
OWS Jesse LaGreca to FOX News: Run the Damn Video
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x622935

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EN_--FiUkE






Here is the video:


Occupy Wall Street Fox News Jesse LaGreca Un aired interview

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX7a5RMwyPI
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 8, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
edit: Bluering

Regarding the supposed corruption charges pending against Pelosi and Emmanuel?

I have asked you to specifically show where you got this factual information.

Your above post very clearly has nothing at all to do with proving this contention.

Again, simply show your credible source link where you claim to be informed of these specific corruption charges against these two people you named.



Helga

Mountain climber
stateline, NV
Oct 8, 2011 - 05:45pm PT
The mortgage crises is every one's fault who gave out and took loans for hopeful and realized short term profits. BUT- and these are BIG BUTS- 1)Banks are supposed to know better. And they did, as evidenced by their huge bets against the products they were selling. Hell, didn't Pete Rose get kicked out of the hall of fame for bettin against his team? 2) With the deregulation and creation of creative "financial products" banks were theoretically able to leverage the "value" of real estate infinitely. Even in traditional banking, they are allowed to lend 10 times what they actually have! Talk about the deck being stacked in their favor. That kind of leveraged lending is able to produce way more worthless money than a printing press. 3) We bailed them out. Sure they paid it back, but doesn't that just prove that it's f'n easy for the banks to make profits? and 4) Those profits come from being in bed with government and being total insiders to the whole financial scheme.
Mortgage crises aside, it's totally reprehensible that Wall St does things like start wars so they can sell taxpayers their bombs. Can anybody say " no-bid contracts " to "rebuild" Iraq? And then to give us this "no taxes, smaller gov't" bs. These guys are crooked to the core!
Here's a link for light reading
http://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_financial_crisis#Increased_debt_burden_or_overleveraging
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 8, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
Police beat back Occupy Wall Street protesters, dozens arrested
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x622913
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQh2NJR4onk

Occupy Wall Street - NYPD Gone Wild - Attacking Protesters With Motor Bikes
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x622960
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSmyj-ko5ls

Jesse Ventura Attends Occupy Protest
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x622963
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5MOhbACZXc
“Former Gov. Jesse Ventura dropped by Minneapolis to support 'Occupy' protesters. Ventura pointed out that the face of the movement cannot be dictated by Democrats or Republicans because both parties were "bought and paid for" -- and that he never took a dime in corporate money to get elected.”


Alan Grayson on Occupy Wall Street, Bill Maher Show
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x623018
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhrwmJcsfT0

7 min. version:
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/alan-grayson-gets-standing-ovation-while-bill-maher-panel-mocks-occupy-wall-street-hippies

“sabrina 1 (1000+ posts) Sat Oct-08-11 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
5. Fantastic take down of a Republican shill who is not even funny and
hasn't been for a long time. He should have known better than to try to take on Alan Grayson and would have had he ever watched him on the floor of Congress taking out his Republican heroes.

Grayson himself is a perfect example of what the Wall St occupiers are protesting. Huge amounts of corporate money were poured into the campaign to get him out of Congress because he was a threat to the corrupt Wall St. criminals. He was specifically targeted and more money was spent to remove him personally, than any other campaign.

Without that money, Grayson would still be in Congress. The people lost again because of the corporate money that has poisoned our electoral system.

The audience loved him and O'Rourke looked like an idiot who just lost a major fight and all Grayson had to do was tell the truth.”



Man, is that Alan Grayson a brilliant smart and honest human being. No wonder they had to spend big money to remove him from office. With politicians like him they would never be able to screw over America.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 8, 2011 - 06:56pm PT
Here we go . . . San Diego style . . .

Photos: San Diego’s Occupation Underway
http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/credentialed/article_c9b071ca-f157-11e0-bc84-001cc4c002e0.html
Helga

Mountain climber
stateline, NV
Oct 8, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
The mortgage crises is every one's fault who gave out and took loans for hopeful and realized short term profits. BUT- and these are BIG BUTS- 1)Banks are supposed to know better. And they did, as evidenced by their huge bets against the products they were selling. Hell, didn't Pete Rose get kicked out of the hall of fame for bettin against his team? 2) With the deregulation and creation of creative "financial products" banks were theoretically able to leverage the "value" of real estate infinitely. Even in traditional banking, they are allowed to lend 10 times what they actually have! Talk about the deck being stacked in their favor. That kind of leveraged lending is able to produce way more worthless money than a printing press. 3) We bailed them out. Sure they paid it back, but doesn't that just prove that it's f'n easy for the banks to make profits? and 4) Those profits come from being in bed with government and being total insiders to the whole financial scheme.
Mortgage crises aside, it's totally reprehensible that Wall St does things like start wars so they can sell taxpayers their bombs. Can anybody say " no-bid contracts " to "rebuild" Iraq? And then to give us this "no taxes, smaller gov't" bs. These guys are crooked to the core!
Here's a link for light reading
http://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_financial_crisis#Increased_debt_burden_or_overleveraging
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 8, 2011 - 10:41pm PT
WHERE'S THE EPA?

I thought it was their job to protect us all from environmental degradation.


Like sh#t in the streets.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 9, 2011 - 10:42am PT
Norton, Pelosi is a typical DC politician. She hoardes money for her own interests, flies her family around on the tax-payer dime, and has zero ideas on legislating this country to a healthy state.
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/09/29/737-million-in-green-tech-loan-to-company-connected-to-pelosi-family/

And Rahm may not be safe...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/solyndra-obama-and-rahm-emanuel-pushed-to-spotlight-energy-company/2011/10/07/gIQACDqSTL_print.html
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 9, 2011 - 10:49am PT
I think former Congressman Alan Grayson is a great voice for OWS . . .





Argue with the that -- the truth -- Rethugs . . .


"Make my day."

(said in the best Clint Eastwood voice imaginable)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 9, 2011 - 01:26pm PT
if rich filth didnt fear the protests
and hadnt PUT that in your mouth


Nobody fears the protests. Most people see them for what they are.

Lazy, pouty, commies who want something for nothing. Dirty little commies.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 9, 2011 - 01:41pm PT
The Repugs were actually the ones putting up the biggest fight in 2004 to resolve this

I agree with a lot of what you say about it being a problem of elitism, and that both parties have it, but I don't think the republicans were doing anything about the problem in 2004, as they had all the power then.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 9, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
first they ignore you
then they laugh at you
then they fight you
then you win

enjoy the laughs

Good luck with that. Haha!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 9, 2011 - 01:51pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeL8nHm1TC4

It's getting bigger....


Are you republicans on the right side?


Or is this something that cannot be rationalized.. Just believed in?


A protester says: "Once you are not afraid to get arrested the control of the Police State disappears..."


I say Once you are no longer afraid to die all controls (religious, economic, cultural) disappear.




Those of you who claim that Soros is a bad guy... I point to the Koch Brothers and say they too are just as bad, if not worse.



The Pathetic repeater robots speak: "Lazy, pouty, commies who want something for nothing. Dirty little commies."


If you still believe this pathetic '60's and '70's era slogan-ism, than you are in a worse place than I can possibly describe.

The statement made, to me, describes wall street bankers plain and simple.
But if your mind is clouded by the dumbing down that the liberal media provides to you, then you won't see it for what it is... You'll see it for what they tell you it is.


Giant pile of sh#t. Guy shows up at a social gathering.
On the taco he claims to be a conservative.
In person he's "an alright guy".
But his view of the world is so out of touch, so skewed by right wing pundits.
He claims to want what's best for common man, but he votes against his own self interest in every election dating back to when he was first able to vote.
Claims to want equality for all, but adds plenty of exceptions based on skin color.
claims to want what's best for America, but routinely spits opinion that goes further to degrade America than anything else.
If he hadn't wrapped himself in the American Flag he'd see that his opinion is a poison that every has become immune to.

It is often quite funny to read the rantings of an imbecile, which to some of you, I am.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 9, 2011 - 01:56pm PT
Jingus, can you give a brief summary of what these people want?

EDIT:

Those of you who claim that Soros is a bad guy... I point to the Koch Brothers and say they too are just as bad, if not worse.


So you agree Soros is bad?

the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 9, 2011 - 02:15pm PT
Lolli didn't you know you are a "Lazy, pouty, commie" for pointing out the massive, rising, and unsustainable inequality in American wealth? ;-)






I remember in the late 90s my boss (a small business owner) told me that things were getting worse and worse for the average person. In the 70s and 80s he was able to take time off, travel in an RV, etc. In the 90s he made more money but everything was more expensive, he had to lay people off, couldn't do the same things he used to do, etc. I thought he was just being pessimistic or it was personal, but low and behold the next 15 years things have continued and even accelerated on this course. The very rich have increased their wealth and income greatly and everyone else is doing worse. I'm not sure of the best way to fix the situation but if it keeps going in this direction we'll eventually have another depression. But if you point this out you are a "commie" or "socialist". Stupid sheeple.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 9, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
Blue,

You are either exaggerating my importance to the Occupy Wall Street protests (I have no importance to the movement, you you ask me to claim a statement) in order to make a joke, or you are the complete imbecile I've mentioned above.

Here is the best piece I've seen as to what the protest is about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ju_N9wreGI&feature=related

But much like large overlapping movements in the US it's not the only thing the protest is about... There would be one statement for each person in that crowd if you cared to look.





Edit: "So you agree Soros is bad?"

So you agree Koch Brothers are bad?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 9, 2011 - 02:19pm PT
Hey now.. those CEOs work hard for their money. Hard I tell you. Very very very hard. While the rest of those people are just lazy. lazy lousy commies. This country would be nothing without rich people. NOTHING
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 9, 2011 - 02:22pm PT
Lolli didn't you know you are a "Lazy, pouty, commie" for pointing out the massive, rising, and unsustainable inequality in American wealth? ;-)


You commies want CEOs to earn the same money and pay the same taxes as someone who shits on a police car.

CEOs that I've looked at devote their lives to companies, usually working insane hours. They CHOOSE to work more to create wealth, to make their endeavors better.

And you f*#king losers think that something is owed to you???? Why?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 9, 2011 - 02:26pm PT

You commies want CEOs to earn the same money and pay the same taxes as someone who shits on a police car.

uh.. no.. we don't.

We just think that the ratio between the value of the work of a good solid janitor and that of a CEO shouldn't be so high.

the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 9, 2011 - 02:31pm PT
You commies want CEOs to earn the same money and pay the same taxes as someone who shits on a police car.

And you f*#king losers think that something is owed to you???? Why?

Bluey is your thinking really that simple?

You have a completely brainwashed view that makes you read ridiculous assumptions into what you think other people want.

You do realize that YOU are also being screwed too? And these people are fighting for your benefit as well.

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 9, 2011 - 02:37pm PT
its a tough job to rob the tax payers of the US blind, all while convincing their elected (and paid for) leaders to agree to the fleecing.....


Yeah.. that's a tough f*#king jobs, it it should earn anyone who does it billions of dollars...




Oh, wait.. I don't actually mean that..It's not that difficult to steal money from the taxpayer... I think that the feecing sham CEO's should go to jail for their part in the robbery (not to mention they dug the whole in the first place, they created the problem, they are the problem)
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 9, 2011 - 02:47pm PT
Best Bluering impersonation I've ever seen...

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/cc2ddfcfee/hank-williams-jr-apologizes?utm_campaign=newsletter20111006&utm_content=fv1&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_term=fd
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 9, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
^^^^Poop^^^^



Here's the thing....


I guess it goes back to "What is the meaning of life".....

Some think that making money is what we (human) are here for.

I'm not totally sure that this is the case, and one might find if a questionnaire were to be sent to everyone in the world that there is much more to live for than money.

I say this because there are no forums on "Making More Money Than One Person Can Possibly Spend In One Lifetime" anywhere on the web, and if there is, it's more likely to be a scam site set up to fish for dummies to gather their CC/Bank information.

No, I think that life has another "meaning"...

Life is to live.

Hence all the different activities us human beings have been doing all this time.

Climbing... Would it be possible without a Job? Look into any history of US/World climbing and you will find plenty of stories of folks going on the road without a job, living a minimalist lifestyle so that they may spend a majority of their time in the wild and on rock.

I'm sure this stands for most here on the ST - That if they had the opportunity, they'd give up their job in order to pursue their heart felt passion (not to say that there are no people on the ST forum who have money on their mind all the time, if that is their goal in life then so be it, who am I to say who's life is the life well spent?).....




Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 9, 2011 - 03:49pm PT
Troll
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 9, 2011 - 03:50pm PT
poop
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 9, 2011 - 05:05pm PT
"Prosperity helps one do just that. "

Hey Troll EB....


Explain Chongo

Explain Alex Hannold....


Explain plenty of un-named and countless thousands on the climbing world
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 9, 2011 - 07:11pm PT
I have this odd notion you see, that people shall be honest, have a work honour code and contribute to the society.


That's a loaded statement.

Do people have a 'right' to be employed? Is an employer 'compelled' to hire somebody? Under what conditions? Those mandated by a silly human rights group?

You people have lost grip with reality and the real, functioning world.

Get a grip.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 9, 2011 - 07:20pm PT
The Gods of the Copybook Headings




AS I PASS through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death."

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

R. Kipling

Tyranny always begins with the mob.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 9, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
Yep, sure does:





TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 9, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
Other than the union goons arrested for beating a black man, how many arrests have there been at "Tea Party" events?

How many piles of garbage and human waste left in their wake?

How may broken windows and vandalized businesses?

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 9, 2011 - 08:14pm PT
Ignorance and unapologetic racism are, duh, vastly more telling than bad toilet habits:

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 9, 2011 - 08:18pm PT
No ignorance and racism in the Tea Party


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 9, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
Some of those photographs are obvious Photoshop jobs.
Some posed provocateurs.
Some ignorant nut cases, but not representative.


Kinda hard to Photoshop someone defecating in public though, or the piles of stinking trash.


I'll stand with my statement that tyranny is produced by the mob.

Usually directly, and those behind this mob have declared that that is their intent. But, it also sometimes comes as a reaction to the mob.


Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 9, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
TGT (and others), do you really imagine that there is a demonstration of any variety that doesn't leave a mess? Whether conservative, liberal, or non-denominational?

Sorry, large groups of people virtually always leave messes behind them. Probably even environmentalists.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 9, 2011 - 09:23pm PT
Most interesting train of thought, bluering. Seems as you don't agree with me. Which part exactly don't you agree with?
Don't you believe in honesty?
Don't you think work ethics is recommendable?
or
Don't you think one shall contribute to society?

Well, I can only say that if it is so, we're truly far apart in how we see things.

If you believe in small gov't, less spending (and as result less taxes), and personal liberty then I agree with you.

I actually partially agree with the commies in the streets. The problem is they don't know what the f*#k they're talking about.

When yer pissed off and gather, it's better to have a clear, coherent message. Otherwise people just see what we're seeing. Dirty, lazy, hippies and anarchists spewed forth by the the likes of Soros and ANSWER (look at the signs).

It's really pretty lame.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 9, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
The fact that you select isolated instances of bad behavior on the part of tea-party members proves nothing

LOL, you do realize any negative tea party stuff posted was to respond to above posts about how the occupy people are dirty, violent, lazy, etc.

But of course you are right. You can't generalize those on the left, right, or center. But guess who does it WAY more, the right. Look at Bluering's posts, even I (a centrist) am a lazy commie, who wants something for nothing. I guess I should just sink to that level and say ALL righties beat homosexuals to death and drag African Americans behind trucks to their death. But no, I realize all people are different and there is a whole spectrum of people on the left and the right, some are great and some are horrible.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 9, 2011 - 09:30pm PT
Proof that George Soros is behind these protests?

Any kind of a credible source link will do.

Just would like to know where you got this information, thank you.


Like to add that ACORN is somehow behind this also?

Maybe Bill Ayers?

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 9, 2011 - 09:38pm PT
Doesn't matter what else you say, just make sure you include those dog whistle talking points... they make me salivate.


You don't like those, Wes. Which one really pisses you off?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 9, 2011 - 09:43pm PT
TGT (and others), do you really imagine that there is a demonstration of any variety that doesn't leave a mess?

It's a fact that the "Tea Party " gatherings have left the locations cleaner than they found them, with the only LEO interactions coming from counter demonstrators.


Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 9, 2011 - 09:47pm PT
If it's a fact, please cite one or more independent sources to prove it. I'm rather skeptical of claims that any group is cleaner or tidier than others.

I suspect that municipal police, emergency services, and garbage collection departments find all demonstrations a chore, with little to distinguish between them in terms of messes. One reason why they like such things to be planned, so there's at least some level of extra services available. The same amount/person of garbage and poop is produced, but providing ahead of time for it makes it a bit easier to clean up.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 9, 2011 - 09:48pm PT
They all piss me off. I won't be happy until we are all gay muslim hippies being force fed organic kale grown, processed, and shipped in an Al Gore certified Prius driven by Mexican immigrants.


Fair enough. At least your honest.

And yeah, what TGT said^^^^^^^^^
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 9, 2011 - 09:57pm PT
Frances Fox Piven at a CNUY organizational meeting on 10/6/11

Who's preparing for violence and organizing this?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSnzKNbCw74&feature=player_embedded

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 9, 2011 - 10:07pm PT
Pretty funny that I'd find this hilarious

"I actually partially agree with the commies in the streets. The problem is they don't know what the f*#k they're talking about."

 Two Bit-tuey says that he partially agrees with commies in the streets; people he says don't know what the f*#k they're talking about......


That's kinda lets us know exactly where his head is at... He agrees with people who don't know what the f*#k they're talking about....

He is firmly conservative.
He is firmly libertarian.
He is firmly reupublican....

That certainly fits his description of people he agrees with.....




bwahahahahahahaahhahahahah

You're too funny....


Sometimes I wish this was a video forum so that we could all see you blathering on about this or that non-issue


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 9, 2011 - 10:11pm PT
If it's a fact, please cite one or more independent sources to prove it. I'm rather skeptical of claims that any group is cleaner or tidier than others.

I suspect that municipal police, emergency services, and garbage collection departments find all demonstrations a chore, with little to distinguish between them in terms of messes. One reason why they like such things to be planned, so there's at least some level of extra services available. The same amount/person of garbage and poop is produced, but providing ahead of time for it makes it a bit easier to clean up.


It IS A FACT. You know why? Some people follow the rules. Some people have standards of decency.

This is the difference between us and them. They will always be losers, until they grow up and get a f*#king life like every other responsible American.

Quit bitchin', start workin'!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 9, 2011 - 10:16pm PT
I have to repeat

"The Repubs had the Presidency, the Senate AND the House from 2000-2006.

The economy went into RECESSION in 2007.

See the relationship?

FAIL"




Wholly shite, I just wanted to make sure this didn't get erased once the idiot realizes how ridiculous the statement really is...



It IS A FACT. You know why? Some people follow the rules. Some people have standards of decency.

This is the difference between us and them. They will always be losers, until they grow up and get a f*#king life like every other responsible American.

Quit bitchin', start workin'!

First posted by a total retard
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 9, 2011 - 10:19pm PT
Keep reaching, Jingus, you may hit the bar....
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 9, 2011 - 10:45pm PT
"
...which is where blurring desperately wishes he were, instead of getting drunk alone at his house while his family quietly weeps to themselves in the other room. Family values...woot! "


 Bwahahahaha


So.... I'm not the only one with this image of bluey...

Good to know.
monolith

climber
berzerkly
Oct 10, 2011 - 12:00am PT
That pic has been debunked, Tom. Still doesn't mean there is not significant people in this movement.

Rockermike was duped as well.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 10, 2011 - 12:05am PT
I no more believe that tea baggers/conservatives/republicans produce less (or more) poop and garbage at demonstrations than other groups, than I believe that their poop don't stink.

It is possible that given that the right may now be large and organized enough that it obtains the needed permits for their demonstrations, including providing portapotties, garbage, and cleanup. The "occupy Wall Street" people are numerous, but less focused and organized, and so not to that point. And the corporate and Republican links the tea baggers have developed undoubtedly help with obtaining permits and funding for demonstrations.

You don't have to be a teabagger to be a 'real' American. Many of their countrymen, of all political stripes, also share and act on values such as self-reliance, cleanliness, thrift, responsibility, etc.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 10, 2011 - 12:12am PT
1) They are definitely Communists.

2) George Soros is definitely involved in backing these hippie low life protestors.

3) ACORN is busing them to the protests, just like ACORN bused in the poor to vote for the Democrats and paid them Federal money to vote Democrat.

4) They are violent THUGS who are unclean with their fecal matter

5) Their main goal is to unlawfully take money away from the rich, and the want to be rich

6) They are secretly taught to "organize" by the UNIONS, which I just hate so damn much

7) I bet a lot of them are homos.

8)

9)
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Oct 10, 2011 - 12:51am PT
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/10/opinion/panic-of-the-plutocrats.html?src=ISMR_AP_LO_MST_FB

Panic of the Plutocrats
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: October 9, 2011
It remains to be seen whether the Occupy Wall Street protests will change America’s direction. Yet the protests have already elicited a remarkably hysterical reaction from Wall Street, the super-rich in general, and politicians and pundits who reliably serve the interests of the wealthiest hundredth of a percent.
And this reaction tells you something important — namely, that the extremists threatening American values are what F.D.R. called “economic royalists,” not the people camping in Zuccotti Park.
Consider first how Republican politicians have portrayed the modest-sized if growing demonstrations, which have involved some confrontations with the police — confrontations that seem to have involved a lot of police overreaction — but nothing one could call a riot. And there has in fact been nothing so far to match the behavior of Tea Party crowds in the summer of 2009.
Nonetheless, Eric Cantor, the House majority leader, has denounced “mobs” and “the pitting of Americans against Americans.” The G.O.P. presidential candidates have weighed in, with Mitt Romney accusing the protesters of waging “class warfare,” while Herman Cain calls them “anti-American.” My favorite, however, is Senator Rand Paul, who for some reason worries that the protesters will start seizing iPads, because they believe rich people don’t deserve to have them.
Michael Bloomberg, New York’s mayor and a financial-industry titan in his own right, was a bit more moderate, but still accused the protesters of trying to “take the jobs away from people working in this city,” a statement that bears no resemblance to the movement’s actual goals.
And if you were listening to talking heads on CNBC, you learned that the protesters “let their freak flags fly,” and are “aligned with Lenin.”
The way to understand all of this is to realize that it’s part of a broader syndrome, in which wealthy Americans who benefit hugely from a system rigged in their favor react with hysteria to anyone who points out just how rigged the system is.
Last year, you may recall, a number of financial-industry barons went wild over very mild criticism from President Obama. They denounced Mr. Obama as being almost a socialist for endorsing the so-called Volcker rule, which would simply prohibit banks backed by federal guarantees from engaging in risky speculation. And as for their reaction to proposals to close a loophole that lets some of them pay remarkably low taxes — well, Stephen Schwarzman, chairman of the Blackstone Group, compared it to Hitler’s invasion of Poland.

And then there’s the campaign of character assassination against Elizabeth Warren, the financial reformer now running for the Senate in Massachusetts. Not long ago a YouTube video of Ms. Warren making an eloquent, down-to-earth case for taxes on the rich went viral. Nothing about what she said was radical — it was no more than a modern riff on Oliver Wendell Holmes’s famous dictum that “Taxes are what we pay for civilized society.”
But listening to the reliable defenders of the wealthy, you’d think that Ms. Warren was the second coming of Leon Trotsky. George Will declared that she has a “collectivist agenda,” that she believes that “individualism is a chimera.” And Rush Limbaugh called her “a parasite who hates her host. Willing to destroy the host while she sucks the life out of it.”
What’s going on here? The answer, surely, is that Wall Street’s Masters of the Universe realize, deep down, how morally indefensible their position is. They’re not John Galt; they’re not even Steve Jobs. They’re people who got rich by peddling complex financial schemes that, far from delivering clear benefits to the American people, helped push us into a crisis whose aftereffects continue to blight the lives of tens of millions of their fellow citizens.
Yet they have paid no price. Their institutions were bailed out by taxpayers, with few strings attached. They continue to benefit from explicit and implicit federal guarantees — basically, they’re still in a game of heads they win, tails taxpayers lose. And they benefit from tax loopholes that in many cases have people with multimillion-dollar incomes paying lower rates than middle-class families.
This special treatment can’t bear close scrutiny — and therefore, as they see it, there must be no close scrutiny. Anyone who points out the obvious, no matter how calmly and moderately, must be demonized and driven from the stage. In fact, the more reasonable and moderate a critic sounds, the more urgently he or she must be demonized, hence the frantic sliming of Elizabeth Warren.
So who’s really being un-American here? Not the protesters, who are simply trying to get their voices heard. No, the real extremists here are America’s oligarchs, who want to suppress any criticism of the sources of their wealth.
A version of this op-ed appeared in print on October 10, 2011, on page A23 of the New York Times edition with the headline: Panic Of the Plutocrats.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 10, 2011 - 07:52am PT
the latest protest anthem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QTfNEDgusQ

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 10, 2011 - 08:03am PT
karl marx for dummies:


October 10, 2011

Occupy Wall Street: A Manifesto

By David Harsanyi
10/5/2011

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men, women and transgendered -- and any other human who is able to elude the tyranny of work for a couple of weeks -- are created equal. We gather to be free not of tyranny, but of responsibility and college tuitions. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that a government long established and a nation long prosperous be changed for light and transient causes. So let our demands* be submitted to a candid world.

First, we are imbued with as many inalienable rights as a few thousand college kids and a gaggle of borderline celebrities can concoct, among them a guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment and immediate across-the-board debt forgiveness -- even if that debt was acquired taking on a mortgage with a 4.1 percent interest rate and no money down, which, we admit, is a pretty sweet deal in historical context...

...but down with the modern gilded age!

We demand that a Master of Fine Arts in musical theater writing, with a minor in German, become an immutable human right, because education is crucial and rich people can afford to fund unemployment checks until we find jobs or in perpetuity, whichever comes first.

We demand a minimum wage of $10, no ... make it $20. We earned it. And we demand the end of "profiteering," because there is no better way to end joblessness than stopping the growth of capital. We also demand a maximum wage law, because selfish American dreams need a firm ceiling.

We demand the institution of direct democracy, because if a bunch of people say it's OK, it's OK. And everyone deserves to have his or her voice heard. Except Mr. Moneybags, who we demand stop contributing his own money to candidates we disagree with, to issue groups we loathe and to lobbyists who do not work for organizations featuring "Service," "Employees," "International" and/or "Union" in their title.

We demand the end to bailouts and corporate subsidies, unless we're talking about companies that feature sunflowers or sun rays in their logos, because that's the kind of morally gratifying institution we approve of, and thus, they should totally be fast-tracked and bailed out with your money to bring the fossil fuel economy ("the economy") to an end.

We demand the end to a corrupt Wall Street ("Apple" "your 401(k)") because banks hold too much power. We demand that government consolidate authority so that elected officials can make prudent choices for us. All that cash in banks was printed by the war god Mars and has nothing to do with the voluntary deposits by ordinary Americans, so we do not consider this theft.

We demand the end to corporate censorship, because if we can't force private news organizations to run the types of stories with which we agree, there can't be a healthy democracy. So actually, we demand the end of all corporate news organizations in the name of free speech.

We demand the end to health profiteering, because everyone knows that all the wondrous and lifesaving advances in modern medicine were invented in the People's Democratic Republic of Laos. Smart people work for the good of humanity, not because they're greedy.

We demand these rights because of the mass injustice of being able to freely protest against racism and corporatism without any real fear of imprisonment in the most diverse city on earth. And to the wiseguy who walked by the other day and claimed that I'd be writing this manifesto with a quill pen on parchment paper if it weren't for capitalism, we have two words for you: Koch brothers. Think about it.

This is the fifth communique from the 99.9 percent. We are occupying Wall Street, and we're not going home until it gets really cold.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 10, 2011 - 10:10am PT
...which is where blurring desperately wishes he were, instead of getting drunk alone at his house while his family quietly weeps to themselves in the other room. Family values...woot! "


Bwahahahaha


So.... I'm not the only one with this image of bluey...

Good to know.


You two losers must be jealous of my family to always bring them up in these discussions.....

Go crap on a cop car. It's where you belong.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 10, 2011 - 10:22am PT
Get paid to protest!

http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/gov/2618821815.html

The pinkos are now paying for protesters.


350-650 a week to play bongos in the park and crap on cop cars.
apogee

climber
Oct 10, 2011 - 10:38am PT
The Repugs are questioning the 'grassroots' nature of Occupy Wall Street?

Why does that sound so familiar??

Oh, yes, that's right...

The Dems questioned the 'grassroots' nature of the Teabaggers...

Now it all makes sense. Quid pro quo, baby!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 10, 2011 - 10:39am PT
"Go crap on a cop car. It's where you belong."

- Some idiots want people to crap on cop cars...

That's American Values for ya
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 10, 2011 - 10:51am PT
GOD is on the side of the 99% ers . . .


The Fixx: "How Much is Enough?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xcuGBQWswg


The Fixx: "No one has to cry"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74dlhTr9H50


The Bible on the Poor or, Why God is a liberal
http://www.zompist.com/meetthepoor.html





The 1% will ultimately lose the fight. Truth and Righteousness will always prevail in the end.


What did Jesus Christ, Emmanuel (GOD with us), tell us so plainly and simply?

"It is easier for a camel to enter through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven."


What you do on this Earth while you live here matters. How you treat others matters. The Golden Rule.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 10, 2011 - 10:55am PT
Bank On It: They're Scared
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2084851

http://www.truth-out.org/bank-it-theyre-scared/1318020817
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 10, 2011 - 11:45am PT
fattrad
Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Oct 10, 2011 - 08:21am PT


Turn the heat ray on them, extra crispy.



The evil one



Fattrad,

If you are trying to be funny by you keep saying this, it isn't funny.

It's pretty offensive.

Although you are proving the point that the GOP are not caring people. Now I don't know you, but I have heard in person that you are a great guy and caring. So why with the continual evil jests and very dark humor?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 10, 2011 - 01:26pm PT
Many seem content to criticize the Occupy Wall Street protests because they cannot distill it to a precisely stated 'goal' or a simple 'solution'. I'm not so convinced of the efficacy of 'goals' as regards national or global events. Complex historical events are set into motion that often bear little resemblance to their intended outcomes.

Good point. But the Genesis of 'change' came from Obama, and as a rather bizarre result, the Tea Party movement.

Change is underway, you got that right. It's ironic that Obama caused this. Not exactly the change he could've imagined.

goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland
Oct 10, 2011 - 01:51pm PT
apogee

climber
Oct 10, 2011 - 02:27pm PT
"Many seem content to criticize the Occupy Wall Street protests because they cannot, or are unwilling, to distill it into a precisely stated 'goal' or a simple 'solution'."

Precisely the same thing was said about the Tea Party movement when it started (and some find that this is still the case).

Personally, I find that the OWS movement is fairly murky in it's specific goals, but I understand & support the general sentiment. We'll have to wait & see if it sharpens it's focus and continues it's momentum to a broader scale.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 10, 2011 - 02:29pm PT
i think any vineyard owner who pays people for doing no work will go out of business fast...i also think that story is why only 13% of workers are union members (and the number is lower for the private sector)


anyway, i'm not sure exactly what the most important message is in this video...

1. that our founders were right when they rejected democracy

2. that mindless drones are scary...even when they are manipulated into behaving like kindergartners using hand signals

3. that the ows, a primarily and overwhelmingly white group of 'protestors', is RACIST for refusing to allow john lewis, a black congressman and civil rights leader who marched with mlk, to speak at their gathering and that the crowd's effective method for shouting down the man who tried to apologize to rep lewis illustrates everything you need to know about the ows' appreciation for civil rights


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QZlp3eGMNI
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 10, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
Yeah, and the Tea Party were just regular folks of all races, SO suddenly concerned about "spending""
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 10, 2011 - 02:37pm PT
The Tea Party: SUCH an orderly group of people of ALL races and political persuasions:

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 10, 2011 - 02:38pm PT
blurring, which side do you think your jesus would be on, assuming he were around today

How can I discuss something with you that you have no faith in, with something you hold in contempt? And yet, you hold this as the basis of your assertions?

It's futile and hypocritical..
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 10, 2011 - 02:41pm PT
Fattrad, wherever did you get such a thought? Not from me, honey.

Perhaps wishful thinking?

God put me here to torture you, not going anywhere.

Target rich environment.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 10, 2011 - 02:49pm PT
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/06/jon-stewart-compares-occupy-wall-street-tea-party_n_997825.html
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 10, 2011 - 03:03pm PT
What a shame. Well, I at least hope you read Matthew 20. Your jesus had some good insights... it is too bad many of his followers are too ignorant to understand.


Wes quoting the Bible is utterly priceless.

Did you read the one about teaching a man to fish instead of giving him foodstamps and welfare?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 10, 2011 - 03:14pm PT
Did you read the one about teaching a man to fish instead of giving him foodstamps and welfare?

Which is balanced by..

Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Luke 6:30

We could do dueling bible verses all day. So what. Especially if you only want to cherry pick the verses that bolster your position.

None of that leads to understanding.

and I'm pretty certain that Jesus never said anything about only discussing the bible with those who believe in him. How else are people going to understand? But of course, Wes' position is that you don't understand your own teacher.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 10, 2011 - 03:18pm PT
What does that have to do with giving preferential treatment to profit driven corporations rather than the people?

Wes, try to be honest as to why banks were FORCED to give out bad loans. The whole race-based, class-warfare attack on banks forced them to capitulate. As a result, they gave out ridiculous loans and bundled these loans into securities to divert their obvious losses.

Yeah, the banks knew they were eating a sh#t-sandwich, hence the divergence of obligation.

But what is the root cause of this problem? Fannie and Freddie. And the notion that everyone is entitled to a mortgage.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 10, 2011 - 03:20pm PT
Nice one Lovegasoline. that is a good argument for why in todays lifestyle public education should be supported by everyone.

I would add.


blue, So republicans believe that everyone is entitled to have a mortgage? Since they were in charge when the melt down occurred.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 10, 2011 - 03:39pm PT
blue, So republicans believe that everyone is entitled to have a mortgage? Since they were in charge when the melt down occurred.


Wake up! It's institutional, not party based. That's what the idiots crapping on cop cars cannot illucidate.

It's systemic. And it ain't capitalism to blame, it IS the rich. But not the rich employers...the rich elite gov't overseers.

The gov't is rotten. It requires new minds, new blood.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Oct 10, 2011 - 03:48pm PT
No bank was forced to give any loan, and no investment bank was forced to leverage subprimes. Nor were they forced to hide bad assets and sell them to their own clients. The investment banks were insanely reckless, if not comitting out and out fraud.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 10, 2011 - 03:55pm PT
Foodstamps, welfare, and Medicaid exist primarily to prevent a violent revolution. They maintain the proles with just enough resources to prevent them from becoming truly desperate. The social safety valve.

Your lock-step to your ideology has taken you so far afield from the practical considerations which it ostensibly advocates, that it has taken you far out on a thin limb over an abyss.
The textbook zealot.

If the time comes when those at the bottom do not have anything to eat, while the upper 1% own the majority of the nation's wealth, then you can be sure that all hell will break loose upon this nation. All bets will be off, every crumb will fight to the death for their survival, and they will take it from any available source. By any means necessary.


You are so wrong. And you feed the class-warfare mantra.

I will always be self-sufficient. It's not rocket science. To be reliant on the gov't for food is 'giving up'.

It's sad. And lame.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 10, 2011 - 03:57pm PT
OTE, like I said, it's a systemic problem that grew over time.

Point fingers all ya want. Look where yer pointing.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 10, 2011 - 04:12pm PT
It isn't class warfare, it's called survival.

And yet it is class warfare when a oligarchy monopolizes the resources.


A hungry man is an angry man.


That's ridiculous. I'll reitterate FOOD STAMPS. Nobody is starving, this isn't f*#king Sudan!

Let's be honest here.

The problem with our Capitalist system is all about regulation.

That's it.

Gene

climber
Oct 10, 2011 - 04:18pm PT
I can’t for the life of me figure this one out. Please help.

An investment bank purchases $1 gazillion in mortgages – crappy and otherwise. The bank slices and dices them into various tranches and has the idiot rating agencies sprinkle holy water over them. Fine and dandy. Here’s where I stub my toe. Investment bank sells these sliced, diced and blessed securities to other banks, pension plans, insurance companies, etc. – the so called institutional investors who manage $gazillions in investments. One might think that the buyers are ‘sophisticated’ and are able to do their own due diligence. Apparently not in retrospect. But why are the buyers getting a pass on buying crap? You can’t sell the Brooklyn Bridge unless you have a buyer for it, right? Blame is being put on the sellers, but why on earth did the buyers purchase this stuff? If you try to sell me a used car I’m gonna look under the hood, check the tires and slam the doors. If you’re gona try to sell me several hundred billion dollars in CDOs, wouldn’t I be prudent to drop whatever it takes to figure out what the hell I was buying?

g
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 10, 2011 - 04:23pm PT
Gene,

Your questions go to the heart of the intellectual emptiness of the occupy movement. At this point, I wonder who demonstrates the greater rejection of reality: the occupy demonstrators, or the msm attempting to legitimize the movement.

John
Gene

climber
Oct 10, 2011 - 04:28pm PT
Please explain cuz I am obviously very slow....

Who forced the buyers to buy?

g
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 10, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
Conservative = greedy = self deluded
Gene

climber
Oct 10, 2011 - 04:43pm PT
Gene’s Hypothetical Taxi Service once had a fleet of three cars. Three years ago, I negotiated a five year deal with a local fuel supplier to provide me with 15,000 gallons of gas at a fixed price. My taxi business slowed down when the economy tanked. I figured with the recession that there would be no way I’d use all 15,000 gallons of fuel, but since I had a deal at a fixed price, I found a third party who wanted to buy my interest in the remaining term of the deal. He was crazy happy until he had to lay off half his fleet.

Should I go to jail?

g
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 10, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
JE: At this point, I wonder who demonstrates the greater rejection of reality: the occupy demonstrators, or the msm attempting to legitimize the movement.

Or the teabaggers, whose world view is fixed firmly in the mid 19th century.
Gene

climber
Oct 10, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
Only if you secretly added water to the fuel, had someone certify it as pure fuel, and then bought the fuel back at 1/4 the price once the third party was in financial ruin and had no other choice.

True dat. But if I were to try to sell you, say, $15 billion in gas, do you think you might want to check out what I was selling before you wrote the check?

Lots of bad stuff happened, obviously. But both sides of every transaction have responsibilities. Especially at the magnitue of the deals that have stripped a decade or two from our prosperity. My point is that the greed of the sellers was only matched by that of the buyers in these mega-transactions.

g

EDIT: Check out this old thread: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=185510&tn=0&mr=0 from 5 1/2 years ago. Lots of us saw it coming.


TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Oct 10, 2011 - 05:42pm PT
very interesting discussion and range of opinions; but i think you are all being mislead by the 'wilderness of mirrors' actively created 24/7/365 in the controlled media

now is the time for the 'moment of truth'; when the bull (i.e. the public) figures out the difference between the red cape and the matador

the red cape being manipulated and waved about is money

money is just an idea based upon trust; and the trust is gone now

the matador has one primary objective: depopulation (so he can inherit the earth)

fomenting all available differences of opinion in order to create the chaos of social unrest, riots, revolution, and the like; only serves to provide a suitable environment in which the matador can act on that objective

participating in social unrest; whether for or against any particular faction; just plays into the hands of the matador

go ahead pawing the ground and running around in little circles and pay no attention to the matador and his sword...



Gene

climber
Oct 10, 2011 - 05:55pm PT
Fattrad,

People fear that which influences their lives and over which they have little control or understanding. They are justified to the extent that something out of control that was not even understood by its participants has put our fiscal well being back by a minimum of two decades.

It’s more about being F’d than getting laid.

g
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 10, 2011 - 06:05pm PT
WE are the 99%

http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/


"We are the 99 percent. We are getting kicked out of our homes. We are forced to choose between groceries and rent. We are denied quality medical care. We are suffering from environmental pollution. We are working long hours for little pay and no rights, if we're working at all. We are getting nothing while the other 1 percent is getting everything. We are the 99 percent.

Brought to you by the people who occupy wall street."



I will be 30 this month. I have a Master’s degree in education but cannot find a teaching job. I have over $80000 in student loans. For over two years, I have been working at a dental office where they don’t give me dental insurance. My salary was recently cut by 10% - while my boss bought himself two new motorcycles. I am disrespected, overworked, and sexually harassed at work by cannot afford to leave without another job to go to, which I cannot find.
What did I do wrong?


7/30/03 - Mother injured on the job and denied compensation and medical treatment. The beginning of eight years (and ongoing) of financial and legal turmoil.
7/30/11 - Parents file for bankruptcy.
THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED.
-Sincerely,
1 of the 99 PercentI am the 99%.

I am the 99%!
I am 14 and I am terrified for my country.
My dad has been laid off and is working a job that requires him to make a commute that takes 1/3 of his pay for gas. My future of getting a job seems to be getting slimmer and slimmer.
I am the 99%
Occupy America!!!


I worked hard (40 hours a week during most of my education), for what? Because hard work and education is supposed to pay off.
Cuts to education on the Federal and State levels = hiring freezes at colleges and universities, despite rising tuition costs for current students.
I will never own a home.
I am one misfortune away from disaster.
My only luxury (one I need for my job) is the internet—what else do I cut back on? Tell me what I need to do to get ahead, because I did EVERYTHING RIGHT! EVERYTHING!
I AM THE 99%!
OCCUPYWALLST.ORG

http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 10, 2011 - 06:28pm PT
What exactly did the above people "do wrong"?

They are simply Americans expressing their frustration while doing nothing wrong, while reading how the richest 1% get more rich.

Free speech from regular people. That's all, nothing to fear.

They don't want to "take" your money from YOU.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 10, 2011 - 06:45pm PT
I don't personally know of any laws that the Banks broke.

So, no wonder they are not being prosecuted.

Who said the banks broke what laws?
Gene

climber
Oct 10, 2011 - 06:59pm PT
Weschrist,

Very good post. {several above}. I get your point. Here’s where we differ. The scale of the deals that brought us into this morass.

You are right on with taking your used car to the independent shop ( rating agency and having it evaluate your new ride. (Slight difference – the sellers, rather than the buyers paid for the ratings of the CDOs).

But, let’s say for discussion purposes, you were buying the car manufacturing facility for a few hundred million or so, wouldn’t you send in your manufacturing engineers, your audit team, review the ‘as built’ plans of the factory, check rail connections, etc? Do your due diligence? When doing deals of the magnitude of those which crashed the world economy, I hope the buyers of crap didn’t make their purchasing decision through Kelly Blue Book. Apparently they did, and that’s why they are culpable as the sellers. If I had to sign the check with eight or more zeroes, I would want more than a glossy marketing flier.

g
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 10, 2011 - 07:03pm PT
Doesn't a "consumer" have a legal right to assume that the licensed and regulated auto Dealer is doing business in both "good faith" and in strict accordance with law?

There is no "buyer beware" when buying from a dealer.

Buying from a private party is of course a different matter.

Wes had every right to expect both adherence to non tampering law and also "good faith"

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 10, 2011 - 07:15pm PT
How naive, Jeff.


A lot of those derivatives were sold to small towns and counties, even globally, who were relying on the major credit rating agencies such as Moody's and S&P for the legitimacy of the AAA ratings.

These same rating agencies were getting PAID by Wall Street firms FOR those ratings.

Your contention fails because of inadequate logic and linear fact, not Wes's.


Gene

climber
Oct 10, 2011 - 07:19pm PT
The buyers were major institutional investors that had the ability, if not the will, to conduct thorough and proper due diligence.

My point is that without the institutional investment firms that willingly threw down hundreds of billions for crap paper, we’d be in a much better place today. They bought the toxics because they were either idiots, greedy, both, &/or failed to understand what they were buying. It’s not just the sellers’ fault.

g

EDIT:
Your opinions on any topic are worthless
Go buzz yourself, Fattrad. We're having a conversation.

Gene

climber
Oct 10, 2011 - 07:31pm PT
I'm pretty sure people are upset about the whole fiasco and could[couldn't sic] care less which bankers bought or sold which pile of sh#t...

I couldn't agree more.

g
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 10, 2011 - 07:32pm PT
It’s not just the sellers’ fault.

Of course. I don't know anyone who is saying blame isn't shared all around. Except Jeff who keeps trying to imply that liberals are doing this, when they aren't. But who really has the power? Like Wes says, if it is wall street buying from wall street, using the little guys investment money. And they tank it and then get bailed out. It is the little guy who gets screwed. The wealthiest folks certainly aren't hurting during this recession/depression. So who is?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 10, 2011 - 07:33pm PT
The people of any country, in particular its central bank and government, are ultimately responsible for the stability of its fiscal system. They're the guarantors. Which is why in turn governments have not only the right but the responsibility to regulate the banking and fiscal systems, balancing all factors, with the goals of a stable currency, steady growth, minimizing unemployment, etc.

Which in turn means that in most financial bubbles, those benefiting did so by making bets with public money, knowing they'd never have to pay. And a root cause was probably failure to effectively regulate.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 10, 2011 - 07:35pm PT
And it is possible that they purposely tanked the system because they can make a lot of money during a recession.

Thanks Lovegasoline, for pointing out all the different entities fined for this fiasco.

Pay a fine and you are back in business. The system is gamed.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Oct 10, 2011 - 07:43pm PT
It doesn't matter how sophisticated or careful a buyer is where there is a failure to disclose and/or outright fraud.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 10, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
Amazing that these idiots receive so much comfort.

And the Tea Baggers are referred to as rascists.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 10, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
And the Tea Baggers are referred to as rascists.

there were many many racist signs among the tea baggers, whereas you want to label all the current demonstrators as terrible because one guy pisses/shits on a cop car.

So which is it Blue. If the tea baggers aren't racist because of many many racist signs, then why do you blanket label this group of protesters for the actions of one guy?
Gene

climber
Oct 10, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
It doesn't matter how sophisticated or careful a buyer is where there is a failure to disclose and/or outright fraud.


Disagree. Should people buy a house only after driving by because the Realtor says it's a great deal? When you are going to plunk down several billion of other peoples' money, you have a duty to open the box of Corn Flakes to see what is inside. If you can't open the box, walk!

g
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Oct 10, 2011 - 08:11pm PT
So if you inspected a house and later learned the seller had witheld key information or hidden a defective condition you would blame yourself?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 10, 2011 - 08:19pm PT
The Tea "Baggers" are NOT racist! Damn it! That is NOT what I WANT to believe!

And because I believe it, it MUST be the truth!



Gene

climber
Oct 10, 2011 - 08:20pm PT
So if you inspected a house and later learned the seller had witheld key information or hidden a defective condition you would blame yourself?

First, I would hire an inspector (rating agency).

Second, I would buy an insurance policy covering home defects (CDS).

If I was buying a home that cost in the billions, I'd bring in a structural engineer, a forensic architect, a title lawyer, an accountant or two, an insurance consultant, a home resale pro, a termite guy, a roofing contractor, a radon expert, etc.

It's a matter of scale.

If after their collective and thorough due diligence I find out my house is floating in a swamp, I would not blame the seller.


EDIT: EDIT: I guess my issue is that I believe that markets are made with the assumption that the seller is acting in its own interest with the buyer also acting in its interest. Competition for capital. Knowledgeable participants acting for their own benefit. If a party does not have a full understanding of a deal, and then gets screwed, why are they in the deal in the first place? The magnitude of these deals to investment heavy weight suggests that little if any due diligence was done.

We are paying for that neglect.





Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 10, 2011 - 08:22pm PT
The Tea Party people is just good White People protesting excessive "spending".

They are ORDERLY, respect CIVIL RIGHTS, and do NOT have a violent MOB MENTALITY.

Dam it.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 10, 2011 - 08:42pm PT
One good reason why the populace is getting pissed off.
Money in American politics
From POLITICO (sure they're liberal. They're smart.).
The billionaire industrialist brothers David and Charles Koch plan to steer more than $200 million — potentially much more — to conservative groups ahead of Election Day, POLITICO has learned. That puts their libertarian-leaning network in the same league as the most active of the groups in the more establishment-oriented network conceived last year by veteran GOP operatives Rove and Ed Gillespie, which plans to raise $240 million.
$440 million. Only 4/5 enough money to pay back the gov't loan to Solyndra. I'll bet they can get the other $100 million from KochBros if Obama and the Dems look like winning the 2012 election.
And why the HE((( did we start fighting the next election 18 months before the voting?
This is MADNESS, yea there be method in it.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/65504.html

Norton: disturbing pics. Two direct threats to interfere with the election by force.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 10, 2011 - 08:55pm PT
Elizabeth Warren is the right wing Capitalists' worst nightmare.
A very good lawyer, understands how the financial system is screwed up (and how it's not) and tough enough to do something about it.
WASHINGTON -- Consumer advocate Elizabeth Warren announced in an e-mail to her supporters that she has raised $3.15 million since entering the race to take on Sen. Scott Brown (R-Mass.).

Warren's haul was largely raked in through small-dollar donations. According to her campaign's e-mail, she received 96 percent of her contributions from donors giving less than $100. More than 11,000 citizens of Massachusetts donated to her campaign. The number of donors from out-of-state was not listed in the campaign e-mail.
You and I have a voice as well. As long as we can write a check. Of course it takes 11,000 of us to match pocket change from KochBros or Bank Of America.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Oct 10, 2011 - 09:19pm PT
There is hardly an uncorrupted candidate let alone elected official in Washington.

It is basically impossible to get elected, democrat or republican unless you pass the corporate test.

It is far past time to pass a constitutional amendment providing SEVERE penalties for anyone or anything that gives or receives donations of any large value towards running for office.

the rest of the issues are pointless until we get legalized bribery and vetting via cash out of politics.





climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Oct 10, 2011 - 09:37pm PT
we are not nearly as divided as we are being PAID to be.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 10, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
DO NOT REPLY TO THE TROLL

A really good internet troll has one goal, to attract attention to themselves by playing the victim when challenged, by being personally insulting in a clever kind of vague manner, and constantly provoking anger and emotions so as to keep the other posters responding to the troll with every reply.

This good internet troll knows very little of the specifics behind what is being discussed, offers nothing of concrete value, changes the subject frequently in order to avoid being proven specifically wrong, never ever admits to being wrong, and is an expert at appearing to be personally wounded and hurt when their own actions cause others to reply in the same insulting manner as the troll.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Oct 10, 2011 - 09:50pm PT
OOOPS too late

Becoming a masters degree teacher is irresponsible?

WOW

Thanks for dissing my mom.. who retired twice after 40+ years as a teacher.

Incase you hadn't noticed but teachers are being laid off by the 100k lately.

Which certainly wasn't predicted by anyone 4 years ago.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Oct 10, 2011 - 10:19pm PT
you are so full of troll sh#t.

right now there isn't a single safe degree ..in case you hadn't noticed the economy is in a prolonged depression due to a repeat of the same sh#t that caused it 80 years ago.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 10, 2011 - 10:27pm PT
DO NOT REPLY TO THE TROLL



A really good internet troll has one goal, to attract attention to themselves by playing the victim when challenged, by being personally insulting in a clever kind of vague manner, and constantly provoking anger and emotions so as to keep the other posters responding to the troll with every reply.


This good internet troll knows very little of the specifics behind what is being discussed, offers nothing of concrete value, changes the subject frequently in order to avoid being proven specifically wrong, never ever admits to being wrong, and is an expert at appearing to personally wounded and hurt when their own actions cause others to reply in the same insulting manner as the troll.

Do not ever reply to the troll and do not ever use the troll's name.

Ignore ignore ignore
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 10, 2011 - 10:29pm PT
BINGO
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 10, 2011 - 10:33pm PT
An authentic black gentleman will be F's next president.









































He'll just have to learn to deal with it.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 10, 2011 - 10:50pm PT
Racist!

He's the real deal.

BHO is as black as I'm Irish
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 10, 2011 - 10:55pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv5BYEOQYLo

Good for absolutely nuthin!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 10, 2011 - 10:58pm PT
Yes, Obama IS only half white, not a REAL black man, like Herman Cain.

And it is this only 50% Whiteness that is SO troubling.


Even as a child, you can see the young Muslim's hatred for White People in his eyes.


Yes, 100% White People are SUCH good judges of the Blackness of Black people.

JESUS FUKING CHRIST






TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 10, 2011 - 11:06pm PT
LOL,

A man who's dad worked three jobs as a janitor , chauffeur, etc. and succeeded on his own initiative and drive is an Oreo.

But, a half white guy raised by his white grandparents, coddled in all private schools is somehow "authentic"?




corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Oct 10, 2011 - 11:09pm PT
Agree with you that the villainous commie mobs that are trying to occupy the centers of American capitalism are worthy of clubbing for their scheming duplicity.

Typical socialist trickery. Invest in bodybags. Make a profit.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 10, 2011 - 11:19pm PT
A thought provoking book on the subject.

Job that is.

karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Oct 10, 2011 - 11:34pm PT
great pics! Posted by war above. Donald Thompson, you are a disrespectful turd.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 10, 2011 - 11:45pm PT
TGT, try getting your facts straight BEFORE you speak.

You state that President Obama was "coddled" by attending private schools.

REALLY?


He went to a PUBLIC grade school in Hawaii, and a PUBLIC high school in Hawaii

He went to a PUBLIC college, Columbia University.

His mother had no money for his education and so he, like many, had to take out student loans to get through Columbia University.



How in the world could any reasonably intelligent person believe this represents an education that is comprised of coddling done at "private schools"?
Gene

climber
Oct 10, 2011 - 11:49pm PT
most of the worest christian today, are athiests

Who can argue with that?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 10, 2011 - 11:57pm PT
Does that mean that christianists are whores? (That's the word my thesaurus comes up with as a synonym for "worest".)
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Oct 11, 2011 - 12:03am PT
hi folks,

seems like i can drop a boulder into the pond without even causing a ripple:

Oct 10, 2011 - 02:42pm PT
very interesting discussion and range of opinions; but i think you are all being mislead by the 'wilderness of mirrors' actively created 24/7/365 in the controlled media

now is the time for the 'moment of truth'; when the bull (i.e. the public) figures out the difference between the red cape and the matador

the red cape being manipulated and waved about is money

money is just an idea based upon trust; and the trust is gone now

the matador has one primary objective: depopulation (so he can inherit the earth)

fomenting all available differences of opinion in order to create the chaos of social unrest, riots, revolution, and the like; only serves to provide a suitable environment in which the matador can act on that objective

participating in social unrest; whether for or against any particular faction; just plays into the hands of the matador

go ahead pawing the ground and running around in little circles and pay no attention to the matador and his sword...

Gene

climber
Oct 11, 2011 - 12:04am PT
war,

Please grace us by letting us know what you mean in a way we can understand it. That would be a good way to continue the conversation.

Unless you prefer to play Nazis and Indians.

Thanks,
g
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Oct 11, 2011 - 12:53am PT
Oct 10, 2011 - 09:37pm PT
Well what do you propose Tom?

that is the right question and one that i spend much of my time thinking about and there are a lot of possible answers; summed up by ceasing to flow power to the powerful

i think that squabbling over petty differences works very much against us all

i don't think that money and the economy are the critical issues; nor race, religion, or social status

i don't think it is worthwhile to seek out and punish the perpetrators; for various reasons

just stop supporting them and flowing power to them

one possible answer is for people to abandon the use of banks and credit cards and retreat to using cash and barter

we no longer need the banks in an online economy

You believe we are encouraged to protest so that the powers that be can depopulate planet earth? Mass Extermination?

yes, we are being exterminated, starting with 'them';

with 'them' moving closer and closer to home

various forms of social unrest are being used to disguise this; so when i see social unrest fomented in the USA, the writing is looming larger on the wall
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Oct 11, 2011 - 01:00am PT
the American public, even those who read widely, tend to be very poorly informed and heavily misinformed on events in the world;

one answer is to seriously study world news and alternative news and try to pick out realities from the sea of intentional noise

search Georgia Guidestones

yes, the Georgia Guidestones are an interesting data source to consider

A message consisting of a set of ten guidelines or principles is engraved on the Georgia Guidestones in eight different languages, one language on each face of the four large upright stones. Moving clockwise around the structure from due north, these languages are: English, Spanish, Swahili, Hindi, Hebrew, Arabic, Chinese, and Russian.

Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
Guide reproduction wisely — improving fitness and diversity.
Unite humanity with a living new language.
Rule passion — faith — tradition — and all things with tempered reason.
Protect people and nations with fair laws and just courts.
Let all nations rule internally resolving external disputes in a world court.
Avoid petty laws and useless officials.
Balance personal rights with social duties.
Prize truth — beauty — love — seeking harmony with the infinite.
Be not a cancer on the earth — Leave room for nature — Leave room for nature.

considering that many people make plans; and some plans are more likely to occur than others; depending upon who knows about them and goes into agreement with them...or not...



the oldest trick in the book is, "why don't you and him fight?!"

all the noisy differences are just being used to obscure the hands fomenting the differences

the same hands obscuring the facts and providing a deluge of disinformation: 'a wilderness of mirrors' to quote an old CIA insider

Edit: Occupy Wall Street might be a great place to found an alternative economy; if that isn't already happening fast enough
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Oct 11, 2011 - 01:26am PT
the best way to deal with power mongers is to cease flowing power to them

the classic example is the Jewish Tribes leaving Egypt to live in the desert

(having wilderness survival skills can be pretty useful)

In order for civilization to persist, it must have a back door into wilderness - Walt Whitman
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 11, 2011 - 09:43am PT
a picture is worth...well...oh, so much:




Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 11, 2011 - 09:56am PT
Oh LOOK!

Booky found some a picture on the internet that some dumb fuk put some words on!

THESE pictures are not "made up"





bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 11, 2011 - 10:19am PT
"But then there’s the irony of OWS’s anti-corporate impulse, at least in St. Louis. Brand new Ozark Trail dome tents (a popular Wal-Mart item as it turns out) dominated the encampment circumscribing the park. Occupiers with modern Apple and Dell laptops busily plucked internet from the air while compatriots passed the time doodling and diddling with their smartphones, waiting for the next communal activity. Coffee cups from the Panera Bread Co. and Hardee’s comforted the waking, as Coleman sleeping bags embraced the comatose. Using the blank side of a giant canvas Adidas advertisement as a screen, occupiers watched “V for Vendetta” — a Warner Brothers film — with Windows Media Player. As it turns out, there is very little the Occupiers could do without a corporate assist, leaving them just like the rest of us in that regard."


ok, i'll defend the ows-ites...this isn't ironic or even hypocritical; the ows-ites are not really against the fruits of corporate greed; they simply believe that they should be able to indulge in the fruits FOR FREE...what kind of cruel, racist hater would deny them such "rights"?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Oct 11, 2011 - 11:38am PT
What's the difference between these protesters and the tea party? Seems like the anger stems from the ordinary tax-payer being forced to secure transactions to which they were not a party.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 11, 2011 - 12:21pm PT
No one is against people, businesses, or corporations making an honest living and making a profit.

What we are against is the out of balance greed, and we are against the corruption.

How much is enough?

You can't go to the grave with your billions. It won't help to open Heaven's doors to you.

You have a responsibility a social obligation to help others less fortunate from your abundance (ie. jobs for all people, debt relief, housing, clothing and feeding the homeless, caring for the sick and elderly, helping those who can not help themselves etc. etc. etc.)

Do you not get this?

Once again . . .


Oct 10, 2011 - 07:51am PT
GOD is on the side of the 99% ers . . .


The Fixx: "How Much is Enough?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xcuGBQWswg


The Fixx: "No one has to cry"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74dlhTr9H50


The Bible on the Poor or, Why God is a liberal
http://www.zompist.com/meetthepoor.html





The 1% will ultimately lose the fight. Truth and Righteousness will always prevail in the end.


What did Jesus Christ, Emmanuel (GOD with us), tell us so plainly and simply?

"It is easier for a camel to enter through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven."


What you do on this Earth while you live here matters. How you treat others matters. The Golden Rule.
OR

Trad climber
Oct 11, 2011 - 12:24pm PT
Norton....

TGT, try getting your facts straight BEFORE you speak.

You state that President Obama was "coddled" by attending private schools.

REALLY?


He went to a PUBLIC grade school in Hawaii, and a PUBLIC high school in Hawaii

He went to a PUBLIC college, Columbia University.

Columbia is about as far from a public university as possible. Its an IVY and the oldest private college in New York state. Not knit picking here but you are calling out TGT on getting his facts straight.......
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 11, 2011 - 12:48pm PT
They are out there protesting the miserable lives they've built for themselves. HS dropouts, Humanities majors, losers, let them rot in the street.

Thanks Jeff. I appreciate your positive contribution.
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Oct 11, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 11, 2011 - 01:01pm PT
Right on Tom!!!!

I have Been thinking that humanity needs to be flushed. I'm tired of the fattrads of the world. So thanks for the positive contribution.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 11, 2011 - 01:04pm PT
Yes, that guy ^^^ sounds like a "drop out"

Jesus what a dumb fuk


TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Oct 11, 2011 - 01:10pm PT



“there is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody…Part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.” Elizabeth Warren
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 11, 2011 - 01:15pm PT
I don't see why we can't just deregulate everything and let the consumers dictate a myriad of things. From ethics to environmental impact, if consumers don't agree with a corporation or businesses policies then we just won't buy those products, right? I mean, we're ALL super up to date with current events in our Nation. I'm sure that ethics and fairness would trump money. Sounds like a plan, tell those uneducated hippies to deoccupy Wall St, and get a job if they can find one.
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Oct 11, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
It seems to me the OW OWS are day late and dollar short. Did the banks and financial firms executive need to be held to a reckoning? Yes. Has the Obama administration had 3 years to lead on this issue and done nothing?

It’s unbelievable that more people went to prison during the dotcom bust. Maybe we should just throw Martha Stewart in jail again. It’s not that I so much want these white collar criminals/business retards to go to prison; than I want them to be exiled to suburbia on a stipend with the possibility of ever possessing large sum money removed from the outcome of their pathetic lives. Need a list to start? Maurice R. Greenberg (AGI); Charles O. Prince III (Citibank); Richard S. Fuld (Lehman); Franklin D. Raines (Fannie Mae); John Thain (Merrill Lynch); James E. Cayne (Bear Stearns- but to be fair he did ride the crash just about to bottom-still he’s probably worth $100 million)

By the same token it hard not to look at the death of Steve Jobs and realize the not everyone is created equal in ability or awesomeness. Entrepreneurs have an important place in the USA.

As for transnational corporations it would be nice to see so called free trade become more fair equitable, but don’t hold your breath.

Did the Bush tax cuts (which should have never been implemented in a time of war) need to be extended? Not in my opinion. That the Obama administration and Nancy Pelosi (talk about a political aristocrat) and a Reid led congress couldn’t make this happen just reflects the Democratic hypocrisy and lameness. The stimulus was a joke.

The precious compassionate European State held up by the educated and the idle in the USA as a model of governance is a house of cards.

Just as the tea party started as something and has been sucked into the corporatist wing of the GOP, I see the Occupy crowd destined to be swallowed whole by the public employee unions.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 11, 2011 - 01:45pm PT
Dr,
Exactly, history dictates that businesses should be able to do as they please, because all of America pays attention to how businesses conduct themselves.

Problem solved.

And on the environmental side, you naysayers may cite superfund sites. In the new model, there will be no superfund sites. No more EPA.

Problem solved.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 11, 2011 - 01:59pm PT
What is lead and arsenic trading at right now?

Serious $ potential there.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland
Oct 11, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
Hey luvgas, can we all crash at your place when it gets cold out?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 11, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
So, if I travel the five hours to NYC to participate in the protest in my truck, burning fuel, am I a hypocrite? Or am I just using a product or commodity to facilitate the voicing of my displeasure in regards to their practices?

Should I walk?

Maybe I should just stay home and pray, prayer solves everything if you believe and listen to The Word, right?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 11, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
It seems to me the OW OWS are day late and dollar short. Did the banks and financial firms executive need to be held to a reckoning? Yes. Has the Obama administration had 3 years to lead on this issue and done nothing?

It’s unbelievable that more people went to prison during the dotcom bust. Maybe we should just throw Martha Stewart in jail again. It’s not that I so much want these white collar criminals/business retards to go to prison; than I want them to be exiled to suburbia on a stipend with the possibility of ever possessing large sum money removed from the outcome of their pathetic lives. Need a list to start? Maurice R. Greenberg (AGI); Charles O. Prince III (Citibank); Richard S. Fuld (Lehman); Franklin D. Raines (Fannie Mae); John Thain (Merrill Lynch); James E. Cayne (Bear Stearns- but to be fair he did ride the crash just about to bottom-still he’s probably worth $100 million)

By the same token it hard not to look at the death of Steve Jobs and realize the not everyone is created equal in ability or awesomeness. Entrepreneurs have an important place in the USA.

As for transnational corporations it would be nice to see so called free trade become more fair equitable, but don’t hold your breath.

Did the Bush tax cuts (which should have never been implemented in a time of war) need to be extended? Not in my opinion. That the Obama administration and Nancy Pelosi (talk about a political aristocrat) and a Reid led congress couldn’t make this happen just reflects the Democratic hypocrisy and lameness. The stimulus was a joke.

The precious compassionate European State held up by the educated and the idle in the USA as a model of governance is a house of cards.

Just as the tea party started as something and has been sucked into the corporatist wing of the GOP, I see the Occupy crowd destined to be swallowed whole by the public employee unions.

I read this and thought it was from Bluering because out of the corner of my eye the avatar picture looked like his. I was thinking "Wow, he has expanded beyond his us or them thinking and actually made some very intelligent and insightful comments. But alas it was krahmes who has an open mind and sees reality.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 11, 2011 - 02:23pm PT
They are out there protesting the miserable lives they've built for themselves. HS dropouts, Humanities majors, losers, let them rot in the street.
-- fattrad


They don't make many people more ugly than fattrad.




[maybe 1%]
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 11, 2011 - 02:26pm PT



http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/

My dad is unemployed due to disabilities obtained on the job. He’s in need of health insurance but is NOT ELIGIBLE for Medicare because he could be covered on my mom’s health insurance.
The problem is, if she adds him, she would OWE her job $$ each month and have no take home income. The sole income upon which they rely.
After 25+ years of happy marriage, my parents are considering DIVORCE just so he can be eligible for Medicare.
WE are the 99%.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 11, 2011 - 02:30pm PT
http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/


It is sad that I consider my family lucky.
4 kids
Husband works full time for minimum wage and no affordable benefits (health insurance would cost more than his monthly gross pay)
We qualify for food stamps and housing assistance
We live paycheck to paycheck
But at least we have food and shelter.
We are locked into a single income because child care would absorb a second income (plus some)
We do not have credit cards and drive a car that is over 10 years old because we don’t want payments.
Neither myself or my husband have been to the doctor or dentist in over 5 years.
I am in a community college (for Computer Science) and I am fortunate that a Pell Grant covers my tuition and books. But I can see that it is a useless degree.
I fear that the programs that feed us and keep us in a home will be cut soon.

I am the 99%.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 11, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
Why would anyone feel "threatened" by normal Americans expressing frustration?

They don't want your job, and they don't want your money.

They are simply pointing out the growing inequity gap in America.

They feel they did everything "right", they have less and less, and see the rich get more rich.

They have a right to express their opinion.

Why would anyone have a problem with this?

Talk against them?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 11, 2011 - 02:37pm PT
THIS is what they are expressing their own frustration about: THE 1% versus the 99%

The state comptroller of New York reckons that Wall Street firms paid $20.8 billion in cash bonuses to their employees in the state in 2010. This was 8% lower than the total for 2009, and just 61% of the sum paid in 2006, when bonuses peaked at $34.3 billion. The decline reflects a shift toward deferred compensation and higher base salaries rather than lower profits. Total profits of $27.6 billion made 2010 Wall Street’s most profitable year with the exception of 2009, when it benefited from bail-out money and low interest rates.
http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 11, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
Riley, isn't it a strange concept? That people would care so much more about themselves as to throw everyone else under the bus?

This selfish concept has always been lost on me.

I like making money, and lately I'm very good at it. Who cares though? Money is such a small fraction of what should define humanity.

Empathy should trump money every single day, and anyone who disagrees is eitherly overly selfish or has never known true adversity or struggle.

IMO.
Mangy Peasant

Social climber
Riverside, CA
Oct 11, 2011 - 03:04pm PT
I think somebody should actually go and read what Adam Smith really said.



Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 11, 2011 - 03:06pm PT
Corporations are people, my friend.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 11, 2011 - 03:12pm PT
EVERYTHING Fattrad says is rooted in FEAR.

FEAR that someone wants to take something away from him.

The very core of modern conservatism is this same FEAR.

FEAR that the black woman in Detroit will spend her welfare money on drugs.

And that welfare money comes out of their tax dollars paid.

FEAR

SOME of that fear IS justified, but the pure childish ignorance is using that fear to justify their own selfishness, especially at the expense of people who truly do need help.


as John Kenneth Galbraith said:

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. ...
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Oct 11, 2011 - 03:20pm PT
Turn that LASD heat ray on yer fat ass fattrad! Don't you know people are starving in Africa? They'd appreciate a couple of well done flank steaks you meanie...
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Oct 11, 2011 - 03:36pm PT
This may be simplistic, but is it not the case that after a company issues stock under an IPO - that is basically the last time that company receives funds for it's own stock.

From that point forward, the stocks are bought and sold back and forth between a small percentage of fat white rich guys who have figured out how to make money both ways.

No one else appears to benefit outside of this small pool of "investors".

While I have no issue with white guys selling paper one day and buying it the next - I do wonder how and why this "system" has come to represent the basis of our overall economy.

They produce no product, provide no service, enlighten the country in no discernible way other than ensuring their personal wealth.

I can see the selfishness that pisses people off.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 11, 2011 - 03:41pm PT
@Brandon-
Riley, isn't it a strange concept? That people would care so much more about themselves as to throw everyone else under the bus?

This selfish concept has always been lost on me.

I find it puzzling too, but perhaps "last-place aversion" explains at least some of it:

Never mind the top, avoid the bottom

Instead of opposing redistribution because people expect to make it to the top of the economic ladder, the authors of the new paper argue that people don’t like to be at the bottom. One paradoxical consequence of this “last-place aversion” is that some poor people may be vociferously opposed to the kinds of policies that would actually raise their own income a bit but that might also push those who are poorer than them into comparable or higher positions. The authors ran a series of experiments where students were randomly allotted sums of money, separated by $1, and informed about the “income distribution” that resulted. They were then given another $2, which they could give either to the person directly above or below them in the distribution.

In keeping with the notion of “last-place aversion”, the people who were a spot away from the bottom were the most likely to give the money to the person above them: rewarding the “rich” but ensuring that someone remained poorer than themselves. Those not at risk of becoming the poorest did not seem to mind falling a notch in the distribution of income nearly as much. This idea is backed up by survey data from America collected by Pew, a polling company: those who earned just a bit more than the minimum wage were the most resistant to increasing it.

Poverty may be miserable. But being able to feel a bit better-off than someone else makes it a bit more bearable.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:01pm PT
Corporations are people, my friend.
\

yeah brandon,

like steve jobs = apple....
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:02pm PT
80% of wall streets traffic today,
will be in stocks the owners sold within 10 seconds


thats not trading
thats looting


is it legal?

what prevents you from doing it?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:04pm PT
It is sad that I consider my family lucky.
4 kids
Husband works full time for minimum wage and no affordable benefits (health insurance would cost more than his monthly gross pay)
We qualify for food stamps and housing assistance
We live paycheck to paycheck
But at least we have food and shelter.
We are locked into a single income because child care would absorb a second income (plus some)
We do not have credit cards and drive a car that is over 10 years old because we don’t want payments.
Neither myself or my husband have been to the doctor or dentist in over 5 years.
I am in a community college (for Computer Science) and I am fortunate that a Pell Grant covers my tuition and books. But I can see that it is a useless degree.
I fear that the programs that feed us and keep us in a home will be cut soon

let me get this straight....someone has 4 kids but only has the education/training/experience/motivation to get a minimum wage job?

and its the wealthy peoples fault? really? you are not serious are you?
Gary

climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
let me get this straight....someone has 4 kids but only has the education/training/experience/motivation to get a minimum wage job?

and its the wealthy peoples fault? really? you are not serious are you?

He's serious as a heart attack. That's how capitalism works, amigo.

This is long, but an interesting read. I ask forgiveness in advance.

We never traveled together at all, you know, since the kids been little they've
always known that I vanished from their lives periodically. And they never
really had any idea of what it is that I do. What do I do? If I don't know
why should they?

Yeah, Brandon, the fourteen-year-old, he got to travel with me, during the
summer. But we got a chance to talk to each other as adults, you know, as - well - as adults, instead of just father and son. We left Boston - we were headed up to the Left Bank Cafe in Blue Hill, Maine - and Brandon, just above Marble Head, turned to me and he said, "How did you get to be like that?"

It's a fair question.

I knew what he meant, but he didn't have all the language to say exactly what he meant - what he meant to say was: "Why is it that you are fundamentally alienated from the entire institutional structure of society?"

And I said, "Well, I've never been asked that, you know. Now don't listen to the radio and don't talk to me for half an hour while I think about it." So we drove and talked - we were on Highway 1 because it was pretty and close to the
water. Got up toward the Maine border and there was a picnic area, off to the side some picnic tables. It was a bright, clear day. So I pulled into their parking lot; we sat down at the picnic tables, and I said, "Now, sit down, I want to tell you a story, cause I've thought about it."

So I sat down and said, "You know, I was over in Korea." And he said, "Yeah, I've always wondered about that, did you shoot anybody?" And I said, as honestly as I could, "I don't know. But that's not the story," I said, this is what I was telling him:

I was up at Kumori Gap there by the Imjin River. There were about seventy-five thousand Chinese soldiers on the other side and they all wanted me out of there, with every righteous reason that you could think of. I had long since figured out that I was the wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time for the most specious of reasons.

But there I was - my clothing was rotting on my body, every exotic mold in the world was attacking my clothing and my person, my boots had big holes in them from the rot. I wanted to swim in the Imjin River, and get that feeling of death, that feeling of rot off of me. The Chinese soldiers were on the other side; they were swimming, they were having a wonderful time. But there was a rule, a regulation against swimming in the Imjin River. I thought that was foolish, but then a young Korean fellow - cartworked for us as a carpenter - by the name of Young Shik Han. All of his family had been killed off in the war.

Well, he said to me in what English he had, "You know, when we get married
here, the young married couple moves in with the elders, they move in with the grandparents. But there's nothing growing, everything's been destroyed. There's no food. So [when] the first baby's born, the oldest, the old man, goes out with a jug of water and a blanket and sits on the bank of the Imjin
River and waits to die. He sits there until he dies, and then will roll down the bank and into the river, and his body will be carried out to the sea. And we don't want you to swim in the Imjin River because our elders are floating out to sea."

That's when it began to crumble for me, you know. That's when I, well, I ran away, and not just from that, I ran away from the blueprint for self-
destruction I had been handed as a man, for violence in excess. For sexual
excess, for racial excess. We had a commanding officer, who said of the G.I. babies fathered by G.I.'s and Korean mothers that the Korean government wouldn't care for so they were in these orphanages, and he said: "Well, as sad as that is, someday this'll really help the Korean people cause it'll raise the intelligence level." That's what we were dealing with, you know.

So I ran away. I ran down to Seoul City, down toward Askom. Not to the Army. I ran away to a place called the Korea House. It was a Korean civilians' [group] reaching out to G.I.'s to give them some better vision of who they were than what we were getting up at the divisions. And they hid me for three weeks. Late one night - I didn't have any clothes that would fit me - late one night, it was a stormy, stormy night, the rain falling in sheets, I could go out, cause they figured no one would see me. We walked through the mud and the rain - Seoul City was devastated. And they took me to a concert at the Aiwa Women's University. Large auditorium with shell holes in the ceiling and the rain pouring through the holes, and clyde lights on the stage hooked up to car batteries. This wasn't the USO, this was the Korean Students' Association.

The person that they invited to sing - I was the only white person there - the person that they invited to sing was Marian Anderson, great black operatic soprano who had been on tour in Japan, you see. There she was, singing "Oh Freedom" and "Nobody Knows the Trouble I've Seen." And I watched her through the rain coming through the ceiling and thought back to Salt Lake [City].

My father, Sid, who ran the Capitol Theatre - it was a movie house but it had been an old vaudeville house and he wanted to bring back live performances back to the Capitol - in 1948 he invited Marian Anderson to comed and sing there. I remembered we went to the, to the train station to pick her up and took her to the biggest hotel in town, The Hotel Utah, but they wouldn't let her stay there, because she was black.

And I remembered my father's humiliation and her humiliation, as I saw her
singing in there, through the rain. And I realized right then, I said,
"Brandon, right then I knew that it was all wrong, and it all had to change. And that that change had to start with me."

*

I learned in Korea that I would never again in my life abdicate to somebody
else my right and my ability to decide who the enemy is.

Got back from Korea; I was so mad at what I'd seen and done I wasn't sure I
could ever live in the country again. I got on the freight trains up in
Everett, north of Seattle, and kind of cruised the country for two years makin' up songs, but I was drunk most of the time and forgot most of those.

I'd heard that there was a house in Salt Lake City by the roper yards... where there was a clothing barrel and free food. So I, I got off the train there. I was headed for Salt Lake anyway.

I found that house right where they said it was, but most of all I found this, this wiry old man, sixty-nine years old. Tougher'n nails, heart of gold, fella by the name of Ammon Hennacy. Anybody know that name? Ammon Hennacy? One of Dorothy Day's people, the Catholic workers, during the Thirties they started houses of hospitality all over the country; there're about eighty of 'em now.

Ammon Hennacy was one of those; he'd come west to start this house I'd found called The Joe Hill House of Hospitality. Ammon Hennacy was a Catholic anarchist, pacifist, draft-dodger of two World Wars, tax refuser, vegetarian, one-man revolution in America - I think that about covers it.

First thing he said, after he got to know me, he said: "You know you love the country. You love it. You come in and out of town on those trains singin' songs about different places and beautiful people. You know you love the country; you just can't stand the government. Get it straight." He quoted Mark Twain to me: "Loyalty to the country always; loyalty to the government when it deserves it." It was an essential distinction I had been neglecting.

And then he had to reach out and grapple with the violence, but he did that
with all the people around him. These second World War vets, you know, on
medical disabilities and all drunked up; the house was filled with violence, which Ammon, as a pacifist, dealt with - every moment, every day of his life. He said, "You got to be a pacifist." I said, "Why?" He said, "It'll save your life." And my behavior was very violent then.

I said, "What is it?" And he said, "Well I can't give you a book by Gandhi - you wouldn't understand it. I can't give you a list of rules that if you sign it you're a pacifist." He said, "You look at it like booze. You know, alcoholism will kill somebody, until they finally get the courage to sit in a circle of people like that and put their hand up in the air and say, 'Hi, my name's Utah, I'm an alcoholic.' And then you can begin to deal with the behavior, you see, and have the people define it for you whose lives you've destroyed."

He said, "It's the same with violence. You know, an alcoholic, they can be dry for twenty years; they're never gonna sit in that circle and put their hand up and say, 'Well, I'm not alcoholic anymore' - no, they're still gonna put their hand up and say, 'Hi, my name's Utah, I'm an alcoholic.' It's the same with violence. You gotta be able to put your hand in the air and acknowledge your capacity for violence, and then deal with the behavior, and have the people whose lives you messed with define that behavior for you, you see. And it's not gonna go away - you're gonna be dealing with it every moment in every situation for the rest of your life."

I said, "Okay, I'll try that," and Ammon said "It's not enough!"

I said: "Oh."

He said, "You were born a white man in mid-twentieth century industrial
America. You came into the world armed to the teeth with an arsenal of
weapons. The weapons of privilege, racial privilege, sexual privilege,
economic privilege. You wanna be a pacifist, it's not just giving up guns and knives and clubs and fists and angry words, but giving up the weapons of privilege, and going into the world completely disarmed. Try that."

That old man has been gone now twenty years, and I'm still at it. But I figure if there's a worthwhile struggle in my own life, that, that's probably the one. Think about it.

I'd always wanted to write a song for that old man. He never wanted one about him - he's that way - but something mulched up out of his thought, his anarchist thought. Anarchist in the best sense of the word. Oh so many times he stood up in front of Federal District Judge Ritter, that old fart, and he'd be picked up for picketing illegally, and he never plead innocent or guilty - he plead anarchy.

And Ritter'd say, "What's an anarchist, Hennacy?" and Ammon would say, "Why an anarchist is anybody who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do." Kind of a fundamentalist anarchist, huh?

And Ritter'd say, "But Ammon, you broke the law, what about that?" and Ammon'd say, "Oh, Judge, your damn laws the good people don't need 'em and the bad people don't obey 'em so what use are they?"

Well I lived there for eight years, and I watched him, really watched him, and I discovered watching him that anarchy is not a noun, but an adjective. It describes the tension between moral autonomy and political authority, especially in the area of combinations, whether they're going to be voluntary or coercive. The most destructive, coercive combinations are arrived at through force.

Like Ammon said, "Force is the weapon of the weak."
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
One of the things that makes stock valuable is the ability to sell it. If Wall Street stock trades were outlawed for whatever reason the Occupiers desire, it would inhibit the ability of any other public companies to raise capital in IPO's or otherwise.

I could add comments about how we will desperately need more investment as my Baby Boomer generation retires and spends the rest of our lives disinvesting, but the anti-Wall-Street/Capitalism/Capital/Business/"Rich"/White/Whatever-else-they're-against probably don't care.

john
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:14pm PT
Presumptuous to assume that the four children came BEFORE and not AFTER the supposed economic preplanning of deciding on children.

We do not know the lineage of the facts to assume anything like that.

All we know is she, like the tens of thousands protesting, are feeling personal frustration.

They see the very rich getting richer, and they see themselves, largely through no direct "fault" of their own, feeling more and more helpless, screwed, and therefore disenfranchised.

They are not asking for anything, no official "demands" have been made.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:19pm PT
i am all for feeding children. i also believe in the same medical treatment for all, even possibly socialized medicine and NO insurance as we would all be covered.

anyone who has 4 kids without a very good job and security is a moron. sorry. you have to take a test for a drivers license, any moron can have a kid.
Gary

climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:23pm PT
The crime, Hawkeye, is that someone can have a full time job, be a productive member of society, and not be able to feed, clothe and shelter a family.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:28pm PT
Haweye, how do you know that she DID have a job and "security" BEFORE and/or after she chose to have children?

I don't see how anyone could know this fact from reading her post.
Sh#t happens in life, often AFTER one properly plans the future.

IF your point is she should not have had children many years ago because she did not have a job or a reasonable future at that time, I happen to agree 100% with you.

But that is not the case here, because we cannot know the time line of facts.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:28pm PT
i agree. its a crime for some lazy ass moron who has not planned their life well enough that they bring 4 children into this world that they can't afford. while they were busy making babies perhaps they should have planned on just how much money those kids would cost then got the education/experience/motivation in order to pay for those kids.

sorry guys, thats they way it works. 200 years ago if you were not a good enough hunter the kids starved to death. and while i am NOT advocating that, something has been lost in evolution. if you want a good job then you damn well better be motivated to get one. why should corporate amreica be responsible for that? their motivation is simple. money. if a worker can make them money then they will hire the worker. if you can't afford 4 kids then keep it in your pants.
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
If you want a good job then you damn well better be motivated to get one.

I'll remember to tell that to a few of my out of work/underpaid buddies...they must not be motivated!

EDIT: Fvck, I didn't know it was that simple! Thanks for clearing that up!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
So the the kids should just starve
Because the parents can't get a well paying job

Thats what the 1% believe
I reject it
we can do better

Thats so pathetic
and at the same time, some millionaire is scoring another million off paying cheap labor

we should feed them. and i hope they are ashamed to get food stamps as that means that some hard working stiff who did plan properly is helping to pay for their lack of vision on how much it costs to bring kids into this world.

did someone prevent you from being a millionaire and hiring cheap labor? if those cheap laborers had valuable skills they would not be cheap! duh.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:41pm PT
what are your friends skills kingsbury? climbers? skiers? carpenters?

i suppose that they want a good paying job and they want to stay in Montana too? a state that is notorious for low paying wages. i would love to work and live in MT but i cant afford too. i have to go where the job is.
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:46pm PT
Not just Montana. I know plenty of folks on the east coast, Midwest and in CA that are hurting. Lots of them college educated. I guess they are all lazy though...

Gary

climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:49pm PT
i agree. its a crime for some lazy ass moron who has not planned their life well enough that they bring 4 children into this world that they can't afford. while they were busy making babies perhaps they should have planned on just how much money those kids would cost then got the education/experience/motivation in order to pay for those kids.

sorry guys, thats they way it works. 200 years ago if you were not a good enough hunter the kids starved to death. and while i am NOT advocating that, something has been lost in evolution. if you want a good job then you damn well better be motivated to get one. why should corporate amreica be responsible for that? their motivation is simple. money. if a worker can make them money then they will hire the worker. if you can't afford 4 kids then keep it in your pants.

In other words, you don't believe in the work ethic? Honest labor has no value to you?

Only those who have jobs that are of value to The Man are of any worth?

You are a good toady, Hawkeye, but they'll come for you someday. They have no loyalty.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:51pm PT
Where does the assumption come from that Obama or Wall Street "owes" the protestors a job?

Anyone care to show how, what source, they got this fact from?

A protest rally sign maybe, an interview source maybe?

What protestor said he or she is "owed" a job?

They "want" a job yes, but owed a job?

From what credible source does the assumption come from that these protestors want to
"take" or "steal" wealth from anyone at all?

Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:52pm PT
I'm lazy.

Fifteen years of experience as a carpenter.

I just wrapped up two years of unemployment, cold calling job sites daily.

Yeah, I'm lazy, that's it.

I have a feeling that most of those who side with the right don't work in the trades.

Without journeymen you wouldn't have all of your luxuries, like homes, flush toilets, etc.

I feel entitled to a job, that's it.

Right.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/
Gary

climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
Lois, that was very pathetic. You've lost your credibility. Who has hacked your old account? DMT?
Gary

climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:59pm PT
Unleash the job creators.

Let them keep their money. Stop telling people they have been put on this earth to give you their wealth.

Dump Obama. Jobs are the issue. Unleash the job creators instead.

Finally, skip gets it!! Yes!! Tell the capitalists to get a job like the rest of us, and earn their own way. Stop taking OUR hard earned wealth.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:00pm PT
I'll remember to tell that to a few of my out of work/underpaid buddies...they must not be motivated!

EDIT: Fvck, I didn't know it was that simple! Thanks for clearing that up!

just to check things out here.....

http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=engineer&l=Montana&start=10

198 Engineering jobs in MT.

http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=nurse&l=Montana

1,486 Nursing Jobs in MT.

1,278 Computer Jobs in MT on same web site.

there are jobs out there. is it tough? sure its tough. but it won't be handed to anyone on a silver platter either.

if all you have these days is a HS education, apply at walmart. or mcdonalds. but don't cry about not having a good job if you have not prepared yourself adequately for the current job market by working your ass off gaining marketable skills.


Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:08pm PT
In other words, you don't believe in the work ethic? Honest labor has no value to you?

Only those who have jobs that are of value to The Man are of any worth?

You are a good toady, Hawkeye, but they'll come for you someday. They have no loyalty.

honest labor has only the value that someone is willing to pay for it at a given time. it is (fortunately or unfortunately depending upon your perspective) a commodity. and if you are unhappy with the man, create your own business.

should i pay someone simply because they want it and need it? or should i pay someone because they offer a skill that i want or need at a given time?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:10pm PT
your supposed job creators have more money in the bank than they ever had,
they have the least taxes theyve seen in 80 years


war, i am all for making the warren buffets of the world pay more taxes. no doubt.

but our OWS folks are protesting the wrong people if they want that to happen. morons.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:14pm PT
so your cheering the fact that whenever i get a job,

someone with 4 kids and a family lost theirs...



No, war, the economy is not a zero-sum game, despite the rhetoric of those on the left. If it were, why would we all agree that increasing employment benefits society?

John

Edit:

I see skip beat me to it.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:14pm PT
So if you don't have skills
or not cute, or popular
or can't compete with the other 1000 applying for the same job


try getting the skills or a business so as to COMPETE in the market place. unfortunately, being popular can help you, it is called marketing ones skills. of course, if one has no skills to market then it might help to be pretty. i would not know about that. but it is in fact about skills.

companies cannot pay someone simply because that someone thinks they deserve it.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:18pm PT
If anyone in New England is truly hurting for work and is properly qualified, I'll split the hours on my $34/hr, 40 hour a week carpentry job.

I've got a part time ski race coaching job lined up for the winter at $15/hr. It's a good offset and I keep warmer skiing than my usual finish work.

It's called altruism.

I'd have to vouch for you and I'm not sticking my neck out for someone I don't know, but if we meet up and you prove your value, I'm open to the idea.

The reason we're busy is that we care and work for the love of it, rather than the immediate profits. It builds a client base that can't be beat.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:18pm PT
This leaps out at me. If you are looking to the distant past as a yardstick for contemporary society and policy, you'll be lost down a rabbit hole.

200 years ago if you weren't white you were someone else's property.

Get with the 21st century, eh?

you missed the sentance right after that loves gas.


the point is that modern day survival revolves (for almost all of us) around getting cash to feed, shelter and clothe us. in order for one to compete for that cash, it takes a bit of a survival instinct in terms of planning what one wants to do with their life to get skills so that one can make a living. it is not easy. there are things that I think government can do to help. but the day of HS education and affording 4 kids is over for all but the most creative and hard working individuals.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:22pm PT
If anyone in New England is truly hurting for work and is properly qualified, I'll split the hours on my $34/hr, 40 hour a week carpentry job.

I've got a part time ski race coaching job lined up for the winter at $15/hr. It's a good offset and I keep warmer skiing than my usual finish work.

It's called altruism.

I'd have to vouch for you and I'm not sticking my neck out for someone I don't know, but if we meet up and you prove your value, I'm open to the idea.

The reason we're busy is that we care and work for the love of it, rather than the immediate profits. It builds a client base that can't be beat.

good job brandon. i have seen your pics on the building thread and i think your work is great. last i checked, where i live at, 34$/hr for finish work is a hell of a lot of money. just saying.

besides, caoching ski racing is a gas and the kids will love it too...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:24pm PT
i get a job 9 other guys bid on,
i get the job, cuz i only got one mouth to feed and therefore can offer to lowest bid

i get a job, cuz i willing to help toss 9 family into the street



f*#k you cops and boy scouts and self help religious idiots

im not going to stand on anyone else,
to reach whats right and fair


you can always go on a diet....or do the hunter gatherer thing....

if i were wanting a discrete piece of work done and got 10 bids, and the quality/experience level were all the same....i would probably take the lowest price bid....just sayin...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:26pm PT
I sure hope the Republicans Cut aid to the Native American Indians

They have No Marketable skills, no money, and nothing of value
They just won't bring their game up so they can get a High Paying Job, Total Slackers

We should just let them starve, and stop all assistance, especially Health Care, they are just a group of leaches


not sure why you brought them into the mix. they have casinos in many parts of the country. they have lands that will only increase in value....they have other things that are not "given" to other members of the population. how many years should we subsidize them? by the way, i voted democrat the last election.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:27pm PT
I want each one of them to work in their own selfish interest, that will make the group/society as a whole strong.

Sorry Jeff you are wrong there. For the best results there should be a balance between your own selfish interest and those of your society. Education is the perfect example. We all pay for public education and in time your society (America) has more skilled people making more money, buying more products, and we are ALL better off. When people only act selfishly they will get short term benefit, but over time society is worse off and there is less money and competetiveness in America and everyone including the 1% is worse off. It's shortsighted and self defeating in the long run.

Right now there is too much selfish interest going on. Bush lowered the taxes for the rich and no jobs were created, it just helped setup the huge budget defecit we have. The economy sucks, so people are buying less, people are sharing housing, so the poor and middle class are hurting. If everyone was doing better (unemployment lower, housing pickup, etc.) the rich we be doing even better, but their short term selfhishness is often self defeating.


its a crime for some lazy ass moron who has not planned their life well enough that they bring 4 children into this world that they can't afford. if you want a good job then you damn well better be motivated to get one.

Why does it always go to thninking the less fortunate are all lazy or unmotivated for these people? I was smart, learned a lot, made good choices, worked hard and I'm doing well. But I have empathy and understand some people don't have the intelligence, wisdom, support, or education that I have had the good fortune to enjoy. Some people don't have the capacity to get a college degree or figure out what the best field to be in is. So many of them work extra hard, and can't get a job or even worse work full time or even more hours for less pay than it takes to survive.
Gary

climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:29pm PT
You get nothing till you do something for somebody else.

No, skip, here's how capitalism works:
You get nothing while you do something for somebody else.

So here's reality. We can no longer afford to feed the pigs on Wall Street. They'll have to start rooting for themselves.



JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
There are millions of American that have no skills, no education, no motivation and no desire to become a 40 hour a week slave

And yet, they seem to want the rewards that we 40+ hour a week workers receive. I know lots of people who want to work more and can't find the work, and they deserve all the help we can give them. I have a harder time motivating my altruism for those who don't want to engage in the prerequisites for their desired income levels.

john
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:33pm PT
I hear you on that, John.

What's the solution? Mandatory adult education for welfare recipients? It'd educate the poor, but expand government spending.

Edit; Dr, I DO hear a lot from my unemployed acquaintances about equality. Perhaps we should mandate education in conjunction with financial assistance.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:38pm PT
Just conversing with Republicans makes me want to puke

Where is the compassion, the National Pride
The support for the weakest link, so we can all be strong

We shouldn't be increasing our percentage of poor, yet thats what the Republicans want, and then they blame them for being poor, and not having a job

Truly pathetic

dr. F,

i voted for Obama. i am not dem or republican. i voted for him because he was the best candidate. while i am not sorry to vote for him i am disapointed.

but this is not a dem vs repub issue. where is self sacrifice? in terms of working hard to earn money? should those of us who work our a$$es off just give it to those who sit on their butts all day?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:42pm PT
FACT, there are too many people who abuse our social services.

What do we do to put this abuse in check?

Social services are important and we need these in our nation. Abuse is inexcusable.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:42pm PT
I'd guess about 5% of the people who are suffering are lazy/unmotivated, the other 95% would jump at the chance of a decent paying job. But it's easier to pretend it's all just lazy people so you don't feel guilty.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:50pm PT
I guess I'll reiterate.

I encounter people who abuse the welfare system on a regular basis.
I agree with the welfare system.

However, reform to this system from qualifications to administration could result in a lower tax bill for all of us.

I'm with you guys, don't get me wrong, but if the winds of change are blowing, let's direct them properly.

The repercussions would only affect those who are playing the system.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:51pm PT
You are not giving it away, that is total BS

You are paying taxes, and your taxes could be spent on $40 billion subsides to big oil, Walmart, crony capitailism and rebuilding Iraq

Or making sure Americans that DON"T HAVE a Job don't starve
and providing jobs that rebulid infrastructure and what not

Its not your money, its the Government's Money, and the issue is how it gets spent

hey, dont preach to me about wars, i didnt want any of them.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:53pm PT
Jobs are created by only one factor

Demand

No demand, no jobs,

No one would just create a job for no reason

We have to create demand by spending more
Yet the Republicans want to cut spending

So more Jobs will be lost due to Republican Policies

hey, i actually agree with you here.

what are all the poor defense contractors going to do when we cut defense?

edit:

Dr. F, i actually agree with a lot of what you are saying....i am one of those poor "centrist" voters who feel like we need a new Party in politics....something better than the current "dumb and dumber" that we have...
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:55pm PT
Maybe you're not picking up what I'm throwing down, Wes.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:55pm PT
do you strap them to the board before cutting them or just hope they dont flop around?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:58pm PT
I have seen various studies that say that about 50 percent of people on welfare will return to welfare at some point. Other studies put it at as low as 10 percent. I don't know which is true. But what this does tell me is that as few as 50 percent, and possibly many more, do get off of welfare and stay off of it.

During recessions, the numbers always go up because their just isn't work and unemployment benefits run out. I know many people like this. My brother in law was out of work for 3 years. He is a mid level marketing manager with a lot of skills, and he has worked for many of the biggest companies, but he is also 58 now, and few people are hiring mid level managers with lots of skills. Instead, they are hiring younger people with fewer skills because his age worries them, even though he is healthy.

He has been down to the final two job applicants 12 times in the last 3 years and each time he was turned down for the job for someone younger. He is over qualified and too old.

During one job interview, the president of the company really liked him and they flew him across the country to interview him. The president showed him one of their products and gave him 10 minutes to look at how they were marketing it and then asked him what he would do to fix the problems they had with it. After he gave them his fix, the president turned to the VPs that were present and said that they had just spent more on a marketing analysis then it would cost to hire my brother inlaw for one year, yet he came up with the same basic solutions to their problem in 10 minutes.

My brother inlaw lost that job to a guy 20 years younger with way less experience, even though my brother inlaw was willing to accept the lower wages.

I can say that he finally got a job 3 months ago. But damn was it a long time in finding a job.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 06:01pm PT
i am a HS dropout. got my GED, then BS Engineering. MS Engineering.

not adviseable, but it is doable. some of us screwed up then figured out when we screwed up and tried to fix things. so far its worked.

my first hand experience tells me if you cannot pass the GED you ought to be sterilized to prevent offspring.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 06:06pm PT
The Military Industrial Complex is a tough issue
Of course we need to cut military spending
and that means jobs

Maybe we can start a new High Tech Green Jobs using them
and they can build stuff for the good of the Nation, rather than for death
But thats socialism, and we can't have socialism


i am all for a little socialism, personally. so long as it makes sense. i recently had brunch in the Timberline Lodge at Mt. Hood. Really cool lodge built by the Civilian Conservation Corps in the 30's. i could go for some things that at least when our children are paying off the national debt our kids can point to something and say we are paying for that..,.unfortunately, most of our politicians are so short sighted they only keep track of the next votes
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 06:08pm PT
thats some sick sh#t your thinking hawkeye,

got anything to add concerning kikes or spicks while your at it?

war, that was tongue in cheek for saying that if you are not smart enough to pass a GED, you really have some challenges in life that government is not ever going to be able to fix.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 06:15pm PT
aint a test you ever pointed to wasnt a racist attack on the poor

why all this fuss about erecting social barriers to biological functions?

i am not understanding you war...this morning at the gas station i was getting coffee and there was a crew of mexican farm laborers with only one of them who could speak english getting coffee. i salute them. they were going to work to do a job that some white people feel to speshul to do....
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 11, 2011 - 06:24pm PT
We are in tough times,

And yet you post this..

They are out there protesting the miserable lives they've built for themselves. HS dropouts, Humanities majors, losers, let them rot in the street.

Why are we in tough times?

I know.. you want to blame people for being greedy, yet you say greed is good. You want to deregulate and free the economy, yet without sound regulation and firm oversight, a free economy will go from boom to bust.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 11, 2011 - 06:28pm PT
Welfare fraud ain't got squat on banker fraud, insurance companies, or the war machine.

You can say that again!
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 11, 2011 - 06:39pm PT
I addressed them. You just weren't paying attention.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 06:39pm PT
Welfare fraud ain't got squat on banker fraud, insurance companies, or the war machine.

insurance companies are the worst.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 11, 2011 - 06:40pm PT
I would say that they are all about equal in their corruption.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 11, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
not possible
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 11, 2011 - 07:07pm PT
Occupy Wall Street, insofar as it had a genesis, was started by Adbusters magazine, which is based in Vancouver. They're going to begin an Occupy Wall Street event in Vancouver on October 15th, if they can ever get organized - the tea party's corporate funders do help with that part. Anyway, Wall Street in Vancouver is actually a residential and (partly) commercial/industrial area, well away from financial centres downtown, which are more or less on Howe Street. So will it be occupy Wall Street, on Howe Street?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 07:09pm PT
MH, OWS vancouver will go over really well if there is free beer....that corporate giant of molson may contribute.
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 11, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
Well the Gov. should put them to work
paying them tax payers money

Since the Job Creators aren't hiring

You will have to vote for Obama's Jobs Program

so they can feed themselves


Obama's jobs program is pathetic. Are you really naive enough to think it will create jobs?

You just don't get it. Government jobs are not created in a vacuum. You have to look at the costs to the private sector - that is why these stupid, ill advised jobs programs always create higher overall unemployment in the long run. Look at the previous $600 Billion stimulus - Government can count some pathetic number of jobs (I heard that dimwit Nancy Pelosi claim 1 Million), but why did we LOSE jobs overall?

Creating jobs is not hard. But to lower unemployment is different - you have to create jobs that add value. This is hard even for the private sector (esp. with unions, taxes and regulations) but nearly impossible for Government.

The most absurd thing about the "Jobs" package though is the way it was sold to the public. It pays for itself! We won't add to the deficit because the money we make in the future will pay for the costs in the present! Are you f'ing serious? How stupid does Obama think the public is?
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Oct 11, 2011 - 07:17pm PT
Ok, screw the jobs program. How about we look at the fact that the government can currently borrow money long term at historically low rates and we spend a trillion dollars or so fixing our country's infrastructure. Highways (maybe beef up mass transit a bit), bridges, sewers, education, the electrical transmission grid is in bad shape and needs a few hundred billion, etc.

Of course, unemployment will stay over 9% because a democrat in the whitehouse can't create jobs by spending money, but at leat maybe our country's infrastructure can keep up with China's...

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 07:27pm PT
Ok, screw the jobs program. How about we look at the fact that the government can currently borrow money long term at historically low rates and we spend a trillion dollars or so fixing our country's infrastructure. Highways (maybe beef up mass transit a bit), bridges, sewers, education, the electrical transmission grid is in bad shape and needs a few hundred billion, etc.

Of course, unemployment will stay over 9% because a democrat in the whitehouse can't create jobs by spending money, but at leat maybe our country's infrastructure can keep up with China's...


august, you confuse me. i agree with the whole infrastructure thing...but wouldnt the government spending money on infrastructure create jobs? isnt that what you say in your first paragraph?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 11, 2011 - 07:33pm PT
How about we look at the fact that the government can currently borrow money long term at historically low rates and we spend a trillion dollars or so fixing our country's infrastructure. Highways (maybe beef up mass transit a bit), bridges, sewers, education, the electrical transmission grid is in bad shape and needs a few hundred billion, etc.

You mean those 'shovel ready jobs' that we spent 800 billion on? How did that work out again?

And those pie-in-the-sky Green jobs? They're going out of business with nothing to show for.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 11, 2011 - 07:33pm PT
...but wouldnt the government spending money on infrastructure create jobs

No man, those bridges and highways design and build themselves. Rise of the machines and all that.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 07:35pm PT
Elcap,

thanks for explaining. for a second there i thought august was contradicting himself.
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 11, 2011 - 07:36pm PT
Jobs are created by only one factor

Demand

No demand, no jobs,

No one would just create a job for no reason

We have to create demand by spending more
Yet the Republicans want to cut spending

So more Jobs will be lost due to Republican Policies


Spending more what? Printed money? Haven't you learned anything in the last 10 years? How is misallocating capital going to create jobs? Printing money and giving it to one segment of the population only creates inflation.

Demand does not drive growth, Production does. Everything produced is eventually consumed, but you can't consume what is not produced.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 07:46pm PT
this thread motivated me to look at some jobs out there. not for me, but it never hurts to know what the market is like.

search indeed.com utah engineers. two jobs for engineers at BD in SLC.

i looked at engineering jobs because thats me and there are tons of them. it just depends upon where you want to live. i did not look up hs dropouts or illegal fruit pickers but my guess is there are some of those too.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
edit:
deleted due to non-directed vulgarity...
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 11, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
Demand does not drive growth, Production does. Everything produced is eventually consumed

Aside from being completely discredited, asinine trickle-down supply side pap, this is stunningly ignorant. Tell the homebuilders with half-developed subdivisions and never-occupied houses and condo towers that get dozed due to blight that "everything produced is eventually consumed".

Sh#t, go tell that to the kid out behing McDonalds throwing out the left over french fries at the end of the night.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 08:00pm PT
i am glad i am not the only one who saw crack had been at his pipe.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 11, 2011 - 08:00pm PT
Dr. F,

At some point, you'll learn that firms hire to make money. If they see no profit, they make no hires.

This administration chose to pursue policies villifying business. Its NLRB sued Boeing for locating a new plant in a right-to-work state, where it had an existing plant, rather than in a coerced-into-a-union-to-work state, where it also had an existing plant. The demand for Boeing's output is there, but with this action, the profit that would have been there is not.

THis administration's EPA has chosen to regulate carbon dioxide as a pollutant, with the promise of heretofore unimaginable costs to those business that manufacture in the United States, thus reducing profit and reducing hiring.

This administration's SEC has pursued policies which greatly increase the cost of raising equity capital, while this administration's fiscal and monetary policy has robbed the Greatest Generation of any return on their savings.

This administration has chosen to try to treat banks as public utilities and, as a result, lending to all but government-subsidized programs has dried up.

This administration has spent over a trillion dollars "stimulating" the pocketbooks of those who bought and paid for its election. The result has been a hodgepodge of ill-planned, uncoordinated and often useless spending with neither lasting public benefit nor any economic stimulus.

This administration has no signs of any adult behavior. Until that changes, this economy will remain vapid, because this administraiton neither understands private business, nor has any appreciation for its importance.

A pox on it!

John
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 11, 2011 - 08:01pm PT

Aside from being completely discredited, asinine trickle-down supply side pap, this is stunningly ignorant. Tell the homebuilders with half-developed subdivisions and never-occupied houses and condo towers that get dozed due to blight that "everything produced is eventually consumed".

Sh#t, go tell that to the kid out behing McDonalds throwing out the left over french fries at the end of the night.

Yep..
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Oct 11, 2011 - 08:02pm PT
A thought.

I've wondered why I don't hear about this. Most of the people I know are salaried. I believe (though I don't have the numbers so I could be wrong) that the use of salaried employees has increased greatly. It's a nice strategy for companies - get way more work for much less money out of an individual.

These same friends (self included) work 60 hours per week easily each and every week.

If companies allowed people to get their salary and work the normal 40 hour week, then wouldn't for each two currently employed a third job become available?

I know this would cost companies more in terms of benefits etc. (which is why they do it likely) but I wonder if this would not absorb many of the talented and educated people who cannot find work because they jobs don't exist.

Thoughts?
WBraun

climber
Oct 11, 2011 - 08:03pm PT
LOL ^^^^^^^^
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 11, 2011 - 08:03pm PT
Crimpie, that is where strong unions come into play. Enforcing the 40 hours work week.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
moosie,
thats as funny as fattrads peyote remark.

John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 11, 2011 - 08:10pm PT
How do you think the 40 work week came into existence Hawkeye?

I'm not saying that unions aren't out of balance at this point. I believe that they are, but unionizing helped employees gain many benefits, including the 40 hour week.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 11, 2011 - 08:12pm PT
there are some good things that unions have done. and bad. some of them reward simply on seniority and it gives those unions a bad name....just sayin.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 11, 2011 - 08:14pm PT
I agree.. Like anything run by humans, be it government, private industry, or unions, they get corrupted without wise leadership and sound regulation.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Oct 11, 2011 - 08:16pm PT
If by 'bonus hours' you mean additional pay that's not what I am talking about. Everyone I know gets bonus hours - that is - more time they are expected to be at work for no additional money. Maybe that is what you mean by bonus hours?

The 40 hour work week does not exist for salaried employees that I know of. If it did, then more folks could be put to work.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 11, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
Callie, you'd have to look at labour standards legislation in each state, to see what is permitted. Often there is a fixed maximum work week - that is, an employer can't require someone to work more than a certain amount of hours per day or week, without paying overtime. But as you say, it may not apply to supervisory or management people.

Simply paying someone a salary, and saying that the person is thereby supervisory/management and not subject to maximum hours of work/overtime rules, may not cut it. (WalMart would have tried it long ago.) Although a professional at a college may not get far with the argument. Probably there's some exemption for them, too.
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Oct 11, 2011 - 08:32pm PT
http://youtu.be/yhrwmJcsfT0
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 11, 2011 - 08:40pm PT
Ok, screw the jobs program. How about we look at the fact that the government can currently borrow money long term at historically low rates and we spend a trillion dollars or so fixing our country's infrastructure. Highways (maybe beef up mass transit a bit), bridges, sewers, education, the electrical transmission grid is in bad shape and needs a few hundred billion, etc.

I agree that we should be improving infrastructure, but we need to get out of Afghanistan and Iraq and use the money from those projects instead. Just borrowing Trillions more is a mistake. Rates are at an all time low only because Bernanke has created a massive bubble in Treasuries. I am sure most people believe it will never crash - that is precisely WHY yields are so low! Most people believed house prices would never fall, which is a major factor that drove house prices so high.
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Oct 11, 2011 - 08:41pm PT
http://www.sentierresearch.com/pressreleases/SentierResearch_PressRelease_October_10_2011.pdf

From the vantage point of this graph it doesn't look that teh stimulus, teh TARP, teh Quantative Easing II, or teh Twist is getting it done. Better turn on Comedy Central, read teh NYT, and listen to NPR to tell me how it is all the GOP's fault.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 11, 2011 - 08:44pm PT
you might should also ask what that graph would look like if none of those things were done.
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Oct 11, 2011 - 08:49pm PT
Crimpie - to your point regarding intentional increase of hours per employee - yes - this is a valid and well used strategy among today's corporations.

In my own case, I participated in this strategy both as one who implemented such actions and one who died by that same sword - I can assure you the tactic is real.

At the time I was RIFfed, my personal hours per week exceeded 90 on a regular basis. I had personally "absorbed" the duties of three additional regional positions yet had a 65% reduction in reporting employees with which to perform our function.

It was neither pretty nor productive, but it did cause the stock value to rise so our CEO was quite happy.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 11, 2011 - 08:58pm PT

At the time I was RIFfed, my personal hours per week exceeded 90 on a regular basis. I had personally "absorbed" the duties of three additional regional positions yet had a 65% reduction in reporting employees with which to perform our function.

Maybe you didn't have enough of a "work ethic". Ask Lois, she can explain it so that you will work harder and keep your job.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 11, 2011 - 09:05pm PT
Lois, you have a way of insulting everyone, as though only you know what is real. Take for instance your work ethic comment after Ricky D gave his example of having to work 90 plus hours a week.

It isn't about work ethic, though I agree that some union employees are lazy and it pisses me off that the union protects them. I worked both union and management and fired a few people for being lazy.

So you don't need to insult me either.

Yes, some union workers are lazy, but many many aren't. As a manager, I wanted to get rid of about 10 percent of my work force. The rest I would keep. The unions protected that 10 percent, and that sucked, but that doesn't mean that the majority of union workers had lousy work ethics.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 11, 2011 - 09:11pm PT
Not really an issue since the talented or educated folks have an unemployment rate near 5.4%.

The unemployment rate is mostly junk, since workers who stop getting benefits aren't counted.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 11, 2011 - 09:15pm PT
Republicans are idiots.





























don't take that personally Lois.


meh..

Your mindset is bogus. So is your understanding of union workers.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 11, 2011 - 09:23pm PT
The unemployment rate is mostly junk, since workers who stop getting benefits aren't counted.

Close, but not quite, John. The unemployment rate calculates those who are looking for work and don't find it. It does not count you if you aren't looking. Thus if, for example, the employment scene has you so discouraged that you don't look -- and your unemployment benefits ran out so you don't need to look to keep them -- you don't count. If you keep looking after your benefits run out, you still count.,

You also mig