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Messages 1 - 163 of total 163 in this topic
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 2, 2011 - 02:37pm PT
This could be the start of more to come...

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 2, 2011 - 02:41pm PT
What's their beef?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 2, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
What are they protesting?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 2, 2011 - 02:44pm PT
Chaz, I'm guessing that this will be lost on you, but it seems as if their main problem is the super wealthy putting profits above their fellow humans, and screwing us in the process.

:)
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 2, 2011 - 02:48pm PT
So, what do they intend to do about it?

ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Oct 2, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
clearly, they are protesting The Man
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 02:51pm PT
They are protesting Wall Street's "obsession" with what they consider outrageous profits,
and all done by manipulating paper that is ultimately "secured" by the work done by the middle class, as in massive mortgage backed derivative trades all backed by common folk making their mortgage payments on time.

They are protesting the rich shareholders against the middle class "struggle".

They are protesting the trillion dollar TARP "rescue" of Wall Street while main street got no bailouts.

ETC
-----


Unlike the Tea Party, THIS citizen uprising is indeed truly and honestly grass roots.

It receives no corporate startup or continuing funding, as the Koch Bros and Tea Party.

This grass roots effort could have real legs, especially as the Class Warfare, the inequity of held wealth in this county, continues to grow and grow and grow, highlighting the us against them divide.


All just my opinion, of course.
Timmc

climber
BC
Oct 2, 2011 - 02:58pm PT
They appear to be non partisan- thought the right wingers will feel most threatened.
I respect their right to protest and wish them luck.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:04pm PT
Skip, I can only assume that you believe the protest is about our recent financial woes.

IMO, the last couple of years are the proverbial straw. What I'm reading suggests the vocal support of a major paradigm shift in how we conduct business as usual.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:06pm PT
Skipt...I think they are protesting keeping the wealthy out of their pockets...Activities like exhorbitant credit card interests , inflated grocery costs , energy supplies...Activities like supressing middle class wages...I'm glad we still have the right to protest injustices in America , a constitutional right...RJ
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:18pm PT
It ain't a riot, bro.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:28pm PT
Why aren't they protesting Obama and Solyndra??? How about GE?

Dodd and Barney Frank?

Eric Holder and Fast and Furious?

Oh yeah, that's o.k......
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:30pm PT
Because they can't tell the difference between hating the game, and hating the player.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:34pm PT
Occupy Wall Street has been dubbed the largest gathering of highly educated people in opposition of something. Or some such moniker.

When wicked smart people feel this passionately about something, it would do us some good to listen to what they have to say, whether we agree or not.

It ain't a partisan issue, it's an issue of respect.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:37pm PT
What's their solution to the problems they're spotlighting?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:38pm PT
I thought Americans were republicans.

No, we're conservatives. And hence the revolt known as the Tea Party.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:40pm PT
A glimpse into the protests;

http://zombietime.com/day_of_fail/

losers. All of them....
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:41pm PT
The Banksters virtually bring down the world economy, using LOTS of fraud and dangerous techniques in the process, and NOBODY goes to jail and there's hardly any criminal investigation.

Some people non-violently protest that and Hundreds are arrested or cited.

And some of you squarely blame the protesters.

You are cuckholders

The Bankers broke plenty of laws. They are negotiating for immunity from state attorney generals as we speak. Why do that if you are innocent? No accountability, no personal or corporate responsibility. They got HUGE government bailouts and still aren't living up to their side of the bargain by loaning again.

but yeah, all that responsibility speech from the GOP is just for poor people

cuckholders

Peace

Karl

Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:42pm PT
WE are a nation made up of immigrants who have a wide range of opinions on a myriad of topics. Not, as Bluering says, a nation of conservatives.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:43pm PT
The Tea Party...Puppets on a string ...A front for the Koch bros cajoling the financially oppressed to protest taxation of the elite...A noble cause...
spidey

Trad climber
Berkeley CA
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:47pm PT
This is a link to their first "official statement"...

http://getgrounded.tv/2011/10/02/grounded-news-first-%E2%80%98official%E2%80%99-statement-from-the-occupy-wall-street-movement/
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:47pm PT
Bluering,

As a well known supporter of the people in uniform, can you emphatically state they don't feel cheated for their service ? Iraq and Afghanistan were about oil acquisition. even arch Republican Greenspan admitted that on retirement.

Maybe people really getting shot at for principles would like the reason to be valid.

Jim
spidey

Trad climber
Berkeley CA
Oct 2, 2011 - 04:00pm PT

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/30/occupy-wall-street-protests-new-york_n_989221.html

Occupy Wall Street: NYPD Arrests 700 Protesters On Brooklyn Bridge [LATEST UPDATES]
Occupy Wall Street


Hundreds of people protesting Wall Street abuses were penned in and arrested by police Saturday, two weeks into an ongoing demonstration that has become known on Twitter as #OccupyWallStreet.

Centered at Zuccotti Park since September 17, the gathering that began as a call to arms from anti-consumerist magazine AdBusters has shown no sign of a slowdown.

The movement aims to "express a feeling of mass injustice," according to the group’s declaration for the occupation of New York City released Friday. The injustices include the foreclosure crisis, work place discrimination and student loan debt, among a list of others.

As HuffPost reported recently, the movement is less about specific policy demands and more about an expression of opposition to ever yawning economic inequality driven by Wall Street and its allies in Washington.

Calling themselves an American revolution, the protesters say they plan to stay in the park indefinitely.

Greg Basta, an official with New York Communities for Change, said that the organizers were encouraged by police on Saturday to march on the street area of the Brooklyn Bridge, instead of the walkway, then subsequently arrested them for marching in traffic. Two lead organizers, Jonathan Westin and Pete Nagy, were penned in by police. Westin managed to exit the police pen, but Nagy is missing and presumed detained by police, Basta told HuffPost.

"Police say some demonstrators spilled onto the roadway Saturday night after being told to stay on the pedestrian pathway," the Associated Press reported.

Similar demonstrations started Saturday in Washington and Los Angeles.

Shon Botado, a protester staffing a first aid station in New York, told The Huffington Post on Friday that he’s not leaving “until change is made to the financial structure.”

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Oct 2, 2011 - 04:02pm PT
maybe,,,just maybe,, its the start of something good in this country.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 2, 2011 - 04:10pm PT
Ron, I sure hope this gains momentum.

Again, it's not a partisan issue, some here have blinders on in regards to the news. It IS NOT a political issue, it's more broad than that.

It seems to be about fairness and accountability and I hope it is about empathy for your fellow man trumping greed.
spidey

Trad climber
Berkeley CA
Oct 2, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
Here is a look at the protest in action...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fockzr7rXys#!

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 2, 2011 - 04:25pm PT
In Canada, banks are allowed to loan 7 times more than the assets they hold. This is conservative compared to the amounts loanable that only exist through gambling on people paying on time(same as Canada) in the USA.

If free enterprise was truly free, the institution you put in and borrowed your money from would prosper or fail on their ability to perform.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 2, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
Yeah, it's an inherently profitable business if you don't get super greedy.

A bank sells you a CD for $100,000 and pays 1/2 % interest on it these days. From that deposit they can loan out S1,000,000 of computer generated money for a mortgage and charge 5% on that money. 5% of 1,000,000 is $50,000 and to earn that they only had to give out $5,000 plus their overhead.

Nobody else has that sort of profit margin. It's only by leveraging, fudging and fooling dangerously that they can't make their business a cash cow, which it is, except the CEO don't want to take cuts in their multi-million dollars salaries to pay for bad calls they made trying to make ever greater profits

peace

Karl
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 2, 2011 - 04:35pm PT
Weschrist,

They didn't listen to the cops. That's why they got arrested.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 2, 2011 - 04:36pm PT
We didn't listen to the British, that's how we got America
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Oct 2, 2011 - 05:50pm PT
"if they earned less bonus incentives in new contracts than the year before, then they got none of it."

That statement makes absolutely no sense, Cleo.

Did they earn less bonus, receive fewer incentives to sign contracts, or sign fewer contracts?

I have worked for and with consulting engineering firms and have not found your statement (confusing at it is) true for most companies in my industry.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 2, 2011 - 06:19pm PT
be afraid be very afrAID

FOR THIS IS A SMALL SAMPLE OF THINGS TO COME

or not.

just load up the 12 gauge and buy a big bag of bisanti rice,

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 2, 2011 - 06:21pm PT
Skip,

What does this have to do with Obama or even Bush ? It has more to do with enforcing the law. The law is not being applied to a sector of criminal behavior that includes a revolving door for lucrative jobs as private pirates or federal overseers.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 2, 2011 - 06:31pm PT
Skip,

your points can rise or fall on their own merits.

Unfortunately for your thing about less government, less government (no enforcement of law) is why whole scale rip offs are explained away as just economic bad luck. You know, unsophisticated investors and all the other pablum criminals feed people.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 2, 2011 - 06:37pm PT
Oct 2, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
be afraid be very afrAID

FOR THIS IS A SMALL SAMPLE OF THINGS TO COME

or not.

just load up the 12 gauge and buy a big bag of bisanti rice,


Don't forget the bath salts.



Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 2, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
that makes sense.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 2, 2011 - 06:47pm PT
OK, here's an example of how I conduct business.

I recently finished a project where I was building a playground for a local nonprofit. We bid on it at a discounted hourly rate. We finished early and below budget. The three of us that were equal partners on the project took the dividend on the bid and gave it back to the nonprofit as a charitable, tax deductible donation.

I made exceptional money despite the intentional pay cut, and managed to give a cool thousand dollars back to the community center.

Not sure if this fits into this conversation, but I suspect it does.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 06:51pm PT

+1 for doing business that way Brandon, especially for a non profit
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 2, 2011 - 06:55pm PT
you can not buy a country,

you have to earn it,


what that means is beyond my comprehension,

niners win again, wtf?

lucy, you have some splainin to do,

ricky retardo

late nite hero for insomniacs, methodists, narco snorters, you name it, we got it at rays chowder house,

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 2, 2011 - 07:01pm PT
ST full of smart theory flies out the window when I read the first few of this thread today...

They (the protesters) are calling themselves the 99%.

They are calling for equality.

Good source of information so far has been Democracy Now.

http://www.youtube.com/user/democracynow

For more on the occupy wall street story:
http://www.youtube.com/user/democracynow#p/a/u/0/RSvutn9aNKE



Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 07:19pm PT
Ok I give up.

Just exactly WHO is behind these protests?

Who is this organized group that rounded up the protestors?

And who exactly are the people or organization that will get this "funding"..

And where does this funding come from?

Honestly, I have been reading everything I can find, and can't see answers to the above.


Edit: one more question: the names of rich people that these protestors have taken money from illegally, as in without due process, please?



Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 07:20pm PT
How did Michael Moore and Al Gore have money taken from them by these protestors without due process?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 07:30pm PT
Ah, got it now, thanks Wes.

I would have thought ACORN was behind the protestors.


Or more likely Anchor Babies.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 2, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
Skip,

No where did I imply less government equals no government. Where there is less government there has to be less governing and in some instances, no oversight. The con artists always rise to these occasions when an industry is allowed to snow authorities into thinking they are worthy of self regulation.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 2, 2011 - 08:02pm PT
blue collar anarchy is on the way
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 2, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
Brandon-

Your post above is exemplary and commendable of your business model. It is, on the face of it, fair and equitable for both parties (though, taking a look from a purely capitalist standpoint you may have walked backwards naked through a corn field)….

You have to understand that this/your standard is not the standard for the current/recent, and past business model…. Greed is.

And that is the problem.

That seems to be the reason for the failure of the American model.
That seems to be the reason for the failure of America.

And that seems to be the reason for the occupy wall street.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 2, 2011 - 08:08pm PT
Norton writes:

"I would have thought ACORN was behind the protestors."


A.N.S.W.E.R. is.

http://www.answercoalition.org/la/

Same thing.



cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Oct 2, 2011 - 08:15pm PT
There is a huge number of Americans who simply don't realize that they've been victimized by Wall Street – that they've paid inflated commodity prices due to irresponsible speculation and manipulation, seen their home values depressed thanks to corruption in the mortgage markets, subsidized banker bonuses with their tax dollars and/or been forced to pay usurious interest rates for consumer credit, among other things.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/occupy-wall-street-drawing-the-battle-lines-20110927
nature

climber
back in Tuscon Aridzona....
Oct 2, 2011 - 08:53pm PT
Good luck with the march.

They will get Tooled.

the Pigs will f*#k up.

The pigs won't be held accountable.

same sh#t, different state.

not use to it?



and the fat ones will just shoot you....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 2, 2011 - 08:59pm PT
The "stopped clock" got it correct today.

http://www.infowars.com/occupy-wall-street-protesters-call-totalitarian-government-re-election-of-obama/

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 08:59pm PT
Chaz, please try to understand that ACORN was a community benefit organization that received Federal Funding, and OccupyWallstreet receives no Federal Funding, and appears to be without "sponsors" or ANY funding.

Do you understand therefore that ACORN is not similar to OccupyWallstreet?


I honestly cannot see how in the world you could come that conclusion.

Perhaps you will list the very specifics of the similarities of their respective origin, organization, funding, and degree of true grass roots spontaneity?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 2, 2011 - 09:06pm PT
Norton, this has been in the works for at least two years now. Andy Stern (SCIU), other ex ACORN functionaries and a host of both anarchist and communist organizations have been planning it for several years. There's even audio tape from the planning meetings last year and early this year.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 09:14pm PT
TGT,

Can you direct me to the Communist organizations involved with this protest?

Just a quick link detailing their involvement, thanks.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 2, 2011 - 09:18pm PT
Norton writes:

"Can you direct me to the Communist organizations involved with this protest?
Just a quick link detailing their involvement, thanks."



Here you go, Norton:

http://www.answercoalition.org/la/
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 09:42pm PT
Ok TGT and Chaz,

I have read the link, it is simply a news account of the protests from a minor media source, and calls on readers to do likewise.

I don't see anything proving the assertion that Communist are behind the protestors.

The link is not helpful in this regard as it says nothing about that.

But you directed me to you as if it did.

Perhaps you can give me the direct link from a major credible source to read where you personally learned of Communist involvement?
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 2, 2011 - 09:56pm PT
Skip,

To clarify:

Less government can and does sometimes lead to no enforcement of law. That was the intention of what I wrote.

Now, if you're a fan of industrial self regulation, I hope you weren't choking on some of that delicious bagged salad that was poisoning people a while ago...
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 2, 2011 - 10:13pm PT
Ok Skip, I'll ask.

What do you think about the political and social relationships between employees of the SEC and employees of various Wall Street institutions ?
Cintune's link up thread is a good start concerning the journalism of Matt Taibbi. You don't have to like Taibbi, but his writings about Wall Street can be very illuminating.

Jim
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 2, 2011 - 10:21pm PT
I said "if you are a fan of industrial self regulation". That's different than stating you are a fan.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 10:32pm PT
Chaz, where is the link between COMMUNISM and the wall street protestors?

TGT?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 2, 2011 - 10:35pm PT
Less Government = Less Cronyism

Whatever vacuum less government creates will be filled by private enterprise. Private enterprise has its share of cronyism.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 10:51pm PT
Chaz, where is the link between COMMUNISM and the wall street protestors?

TGT?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 2, 2011 - 10:56pm PT
There are plenty of reasons one doesn't have much choice of who they do business with. And lots of circumstance that don't require government to provide the force.

The only options I have for high speed internet are ATT and none.

Is ATT forcing me to use them? Nope.. But my only other choice is dial up, and that aint high speed internet. I don't have an angle on satellite from my house. I could from across the street, but satellite is 3 times as much as I am paying.

So what kind of choice is that?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 2, 2011 - 11:27pm PT
FAIL

as usual
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 2, 2011 - 11:41pm PT
Whatever vacuum less government creates will be filled by private enterprise

Yep. I think you are really onto something there!
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:02am PT
wall street and communism?

who is manipulating stock,

china?

no way,

right?

i better say goodbye before i cry
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 3, 2011 - 01:56am PT
some people get rich, others eat sh#t and die


it is a generation of swine out there

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:17am PT
your right, time for an avatar update

howa bout a baby's arm holding an apple, would you like to see that?

google tommy lee
squishy

Mountain climber
Sac town
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:00am PT
Occupy Sacramento 1st meeting...protest is planned for the 6th...oh yeah!

There were tea baggers and progressives ready to help..





Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Oct 3, 2011 - 12:19pm PT
That was then... And Lennon's words aren't as relevant. "They" know how to handle non-violence perfectly. The NYPD has it down.

But how would the react to people who actually stood up to them? I wonder.

I wonder what would have happened if when confronted with arrest, the thousand(s) of protesters on the Brooklyn Bridge immediately sat down and tightly locked arms with one another in one huge inseparable knot?

One benefit of the arrests is that although they have been protesting and marching en mass for weeks, the mainstream media has deliberately avoided reporting it. The mass arrests yesterday has got the media engaged and got you all talking about them. That in itself is a measure of success for the protesters. They now have the nation's attention. Let's see what the next step is.
Gary

climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:09pm PT
What are they protesting FOR

ANSWER: Other people's money.

What do they have to LOSE

ANSWER: Their Union benefits


Skip
This only shows how manipulated and totally clueless you are, skip. Start thinking for yourself with an open mind, stop letting Rush Limbaugh do your thinking for you.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
A suggestion Skip.

If you are going to revisit posts, it should be for grammatical reasons only. It's frustrating to reply to your ideas when you reconstruct a former post after the fact.

If you have more to add, just post it. Backtracking is like some weird, expedient time machine.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:24pm PT
They've come by the hundreds all accross America to protest Wall Street, and they wonder why the world doesn't stop what we're doing and immediately do what they ask, whatever that is.

Sorry -- been there, done that. I was a student at Berkeley from 1969-73. We thought we had a monopoloy on intelligence, and couldn't understand why we weren't running the world. It never occurred to us that our observation about who wasn't running the world might contradict our assumption about our superior intelligence.

John
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
Name calling....

Any way, If you want your logic taken seriously, don't be revisionist.

Slave holding mentality ? Huh? You rightly called me on not being clear. Can you accept your written imperfections ?
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:30pm PT
You have to understand that this/your standard is not the standard for the current/recent, and past business model…. Greed is.

And that is the problem.

That seems to be the reason for the failure of the American model.
That seems to be the reason for the failure of America.

And that seems to be the reason for the occupy wall street.

This is a very naive argument. First of all, do you really think greed just came into existence in the last few years? The problem is that the Government has completely distorted the incentives in the markets. In regards to the financial industry, Banks used to take in money from depositors, and loan it out to people who used it to buy houses, etc. They were VERY careful about who they loaned it to, because it was their money. THAT was greed! What we have now is a system where Banks don't even want deposits, because they can borrow money from the Treasury that they don't have to insure, at near zero rates, and then buy Treasury bonds with it. Banks still make some home loans, but they are quickly stamped with the Government's seal of approval so they are insured by Uncle Sam. Who cares what happens to them after that? It's no longer their money.

The problem is not greed. The Founding Fathers knew enough about human nature to factor that into our system. The problem is distorted/mismatched incentives.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:40pm PT
Skipt, awesome essay. I especialy liked all that stuff about "natural cycles of the market" and "unleashing capitalism". That last up natural cycle we had back in 08 was pretty sweet but then the liberal interventionists must have done something and that why we are riding this natural down cycle which isn't so sweet but we now know that unleashing capitalism once again will cure everything.

I did notice one small typo which i took the liberty of fixing for you:

Compare the aimless Wall Street protesters with the folksy suckers of the Tea Party.

your welcome - any time i can be of help

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
Hound you ? That's funny.

How about reply to you and try to understand your point of view. If I thought you were a joke,I'd just ignore it. I've said many times that I simply like good ideas, be they right or left.

What would be appropriate ? getting all thin skinned and thinking you are hounding me and I should be afraid because I got called "asswipe" on an internet forum ? Or Just rolling with it like in real life.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:45pm PT
Also I didn't demand you respond to my incessant nonsense. You asked me to ask you for your answer.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 3, 2011 - 03:05pm PT
Occupy Wall Street: A Sad Display
The occupation and threats amount to little more than mob rule, writes Jonathan Hoenig

By JONATHAN HOENIG
Skipt, it's rude, and violates copyright, to post an article without full attribution of the source, and a link. Or maybe you do not respect private property rights.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 3, 2011 - 03:08pm PT
Anti-Wall Street Protests Spread to Other Cities
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x5014162
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/04/us/anti-wall-street-protests-spread-to-other-cities.html?hp
http://www.occupytogether.org/

Edited on Mon Oct-03-11 02:35 PM by RedEarth
Source: NYT

Three weeks into a protest against corporate abuses and Wall Street power that has led to hundreds of arrests in New York, similar demonstrations are popping up in other cities across the country with the aid of social media and with the same loosely organized structure as the original demonstration.

On Monday, protesters were camped out in Los Angeles near City Hall, assembled in front of the Federal Reserve Bank building in Chicago and marching through downtown Boston to rally against corporate greed, unemployment and the role that financial institutions have played in pushing the country into its continuing economic malaise.

........


The groups have committees responsible for welcoming, security, transportation, art and the news media. Each has its own Google group. The arrests Saturday of more than 700 protesters on the Brooklyn Bridge for blocking the roadway have energized the movement, and on Monday, new protests were planned for other cities, including Memphis, Tenn.; Allentown, Pa.; and Hilo, Hawaii, according to organizers.

Later this week, rallies are scheduled for Detroit; Portland, Ore.; Minneapolis; and Baltimore, as well as in cities that rarely see such civil disobedience — Mason City, Iowa; Mobile, Ala.; Little Rock, Ark.; Santa Fe, N.M.; and McAllen, Tex., according to Occupy Together, an unofficial hub for the protests that lists dozens of demonstrations planned for the next week, including some in Europe and Japan.



When the rich, elite 1%, immorally, unethically, and greedily abuse the rest of us 99%, this is what happens.

Wealth and opportunity should be for everyone, not just for the rich, elite 1%. The rules of the game should not favor the 1% only and screw everyone else. Nor should our government be all about protecting the rich elite 1%.

This is supposed to be a government, a democracy, for the people and by the people. Right now it isn't. I think the people want to see it changed equitably, to just and fair.


What is GOD's advice to the rich elite of the World towards the rest of us, and to the poor of the World?

There is your answer.

There is a right and wrong here.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Oct 3, 2011 - 03:09pm PT
What differentiates them from the Wall Street protesters is culture. They are recognisably American in their ideals and appearance.

So true and i'm glad someone finally had the courage to point this out. I mean, how can anyone take seriously those who must surely be trust funders easily identifiable by nose piercings and dreadlocks? With looks like that, it really dosn't matter what they say.

We went through this nonsense a decade or so ago when a bunch of hackey sack playing, bongo druming grannies and mere kids had the nerve to claim that we were logging off our valleys at what they claimed to be a "unsustainable rate", as if they somehow knew better than industry. Well really all you had to do was look at them and compare to the hard working boys with the saws to know that they had no credibility. Now decades later the proof is in the pudding.

remember, if they look funny, they probably are
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 3, 2011 - 03:12pm PT
Ah, more revising of a post. OK:

Naturally I paid no American income tax because I am a Canadian.

Why do I have an opinion about the American economy and the recent unpunished criminal behavior of Wall Street operators equal with those that do pay American tax?

Because our North American economies are intertwined and what happens in Canada, The United States and Mexico affects everyone. The recent run at the communal cash in the marketplace that is considered private by those playing with it, reminds me of hero Reagan's blind eye to the opportunities presented by American Savings and Loan institutions. That went well for the depositors.

Now there it a nascent protest against similar behavior and the bitter feelings of being scammed are not washed away by a resurgent economy like in the 80's. This won't go away.

So why should I care as a foreigner ? Because globally and particularly for Canada, the American economy can pull everyone down like the Titanic. I have many friends who's real savings and collaterally their investment earnings were reduced by half after the sub prime mortgage scam hit the fan.

It can be assumed it was their own fault for playing stocks but only if there was honest representation from Lehman Bros.and all the other blood suckers.

blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Oct 3, 2011 - 03:20pm PT
Skipt, it's rude, and violates copyright, to post an article without full attribution of the source, and a link.

I agree it's rude, but if it violates copyright without full attribution, methinks it violates copyright with attribution as well.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 3, 2011 - 03:22pm PT
I did not put words in your mouth. Remember I said "if you believe..." not you believe.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 3, 2011 - 03:38pm PT
Shouldn't skipt and his fellow travelers should be beating up us Canadians for inspiring the whole thing? The 'movement' was started by Adbusters Media Foundation, which is based in Vancouver.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 3, 2011 - 03:43pm PT
Chase bank recently donated 6 million to the NY police department. Wonder if that makes them even more inclined to protect Wall Street from inconvenience?

http://www.jpmorganchase.com/corporate/Home/article/ny-13.htm
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 3, 2011 - 03:46pm PT
Funny how these dependable right wing shills suddenly see "mob rule" and "intimidation by thugs"...but when the Teahadists were showing up to public events armed to the teeth, well they were just "real Murcans" exercising their 2nd amendment rights.

Intimidation by armed right wing lunatics? No way!! Not those freedom loving, keep yer government hands off my medicare, patriots.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 3, 2011 - 03:49pm PT
John Moses Browning has a solution.
















































































Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 3, 2011 - 03:50pm PT
^^^ Man ain't that the truth. When those Arizona racists showed up at the Obama rally with guns some conservatives were virtually saying prayers over their holiness, lol.

DMT
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 3, 2011 - 03:53pm PT
Overall Canadians pay higher taxes than the US, and are mostly glad to do so. Taxes buy us not only a stable economy, but civilization.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 3, 2011 - 03:54pm PT
Browning had some world beater designs.

The potato digger wasn't one of them.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 3, 2011 - 03:57pm PT
We do put our money where our mouth is. We are free to invest in the American economy as Americans are free to invest in ours. We also are bound to and comply with NATO obligations.
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Oct 3, 2011 - 04:08pm PT
watching with interest...not this thread, the event.


not sure if this link has been posted:
http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 3, 2011 - 04:08pm PT
Browning had some world beater designs.

The potato digger wasn't one of them.

Yep, but the other really good photo of him with his face recognizable is behind a water cooled .50

Too much collateral damage.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Oct 3, 2011 - 04:11pm PT
But the Wall Street protesters are the wrong crowd to do it. This photo, of a lady sitting next to a sign titled “Corporate Freeloaders!” while having her photograph taken with an IPad, goes to the heart of the problem. Never trust the political rhetoric of young white hippies: it is undermined by their fabulous wealth and their complete detachment from reality. They travel the world from riot to riot – a cause on every continent, a ring in every orifice. They might have the diet of a North African peasant, but these spoiled brats are professional agitators financed by a generous trust fund.

One thing that is especially irksome about their movement is its pleasure seeking. This protest, like countless others, has been described as having a “carnival atmosphere”. Doesn’t that seem a little less than revolutionary? During the Red Scare of 1919-1920, America was torn apart by union strikes and anarchist bombs. Clashes between labor and nationalist mobs in Cleveland, Ohio were only broken by mounted police. Two people died, forty were injured and 116 were arrested. Compare that grim, cheerless struggle for workers’ rights with this report from the Wall Street protests,


Pure idiocy.

The Occupy Wall Street Protesters have professed their non-violence.
The Occupy Wall Street Protesters are plugging into the tradition of non-violence civil disobedience. They are not throwing bombs into offices, doing targeted assassinations, or burying people alive and executing children like the Bolsheviks.
Instead of shooting people in the face, they are singing songs, chanting, marching. This is to their credit.


Furthermore, the protesters look more like average people than the tea party buffoons. The blandness of the average midwesterner is a scary visage to a New Yorker. We cringe at the thought of folks like that ... they look like zombies. Image 2,000 of your 'average American' walking en mass across the Brooklyn Bridge: we'd think we were being invaded by alien body snatchers.
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Oct 3, 2011 - 04:15pm PT
keep on trollin skip
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 3, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
That would be nice. We've certainly helped out before.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 3, 2011 - 04:24pm PT
How have they been violent Skippy? Let me know, bro.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 3, 2011 - 04:27pm PT
Not sure what that means, bro.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 3, 2011 - 04:32pm PT
You're classic.

Googled it. It's a turn of speech I hadn't heard before, kind of like the term open minded applies to you.

You seem incapable of hearing anything that doesn't align with the talking points you shoot up. Face it, you're addicted, bro.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Oct 3, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
Don't give the police an excuse to kick your arse. Remember, they like to do it and they're getting paid to do it. (And if you know what average NY cops make, you'll see why they'll gladly kick arse even if they didn't think it was so much fun.)
malabarista

Trad climber
Portland, OR
Oct 3, 2011 - 04:35pm PT
I'm somewhat sympathetic, we've all been robbed by these powers -but this kind of protest is just too much "I'm the victim" mentality for me. "We the people" have been robbed indeed, but I wonder where the outrage should really be directed. We bought into and continue to buy into this system. This kind of protest is like asking the robbers to save us. If people stop buying into it, and stop expecting that it will ever repay them for the theft, that's what will change it.

"Friends are more valuable than money"
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Oct 3, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
"they have the numbers to throw the Obama cronies out and install a real constitutional government"

What is a real constitutional government?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 3, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
It has surely not escaped skipt's attention that the Occupy Wall Street peaceful patriotic unarmed demonstrations started on September 17th, which is your Constitution Day. True Americans.

One of the fatal flaws of the tea party/right wing movement is that it denigrates its opponents as not being "true" or "real" Americans, both implicitly and explicitly. The right wing has no monopoly on patriotism, although it's big on jingoism and cheap nationalism.
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 05:01pm PT
When the rich, elite 1%, immorally, unethically, and greedily abuse the rest of us 99%, this is what happens.

Wealth and opportunity should be for everyone, not just for the rich, elite 1%. The rules of the game should not favor the 1% only and screw everyone else. Nor should our government be all about protecting the rich elite 1%.

This is supposed to be a government, a democracy, for the people and by the people. Right now it isn't. I think the people want to see it changed equitably, to just and fair.

Our country is a democracy, but it was not founded on redistribution and entitlements. Tell me where that is guaranteed in the Constitution? Opportunity exists for everyone - but wealth must be earned. This is a capitalist economy - if we want prosperity, we have to allow capital to flow to where it can be the most productive. That means Government cannot pick favorites anymore, and cannot redistribute wealth for the sake of social engineering.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Oct 3, 2011 - 05:02pm PT
Skipt, no links please...

Surely, you can have an original, (i.e., plagarized) view on what a "real constitutional goverment" is?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Oct 3, 2011 - 05:02pm PT
The actula positive thing about this i see, is that people, no matter the party affiliation, are FINALLY getting tired of the same ol...Hopefully, this is ONLY the tip of a MT EVEREST of vocal and visible opinion to come. Its a good tiny start and a good sign that we are closer to an END bottom so we can finally start building again.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 3, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
Please elaborate Skip.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 3, 2011 - 05:16pm PT
An engineer is someone that puts a $500 dollar saddle on a $5 horse,

and then gets the client to pay for a unicorn.


If you are so gud at it Rox, when are you going to get a job?
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Oct 3, 2011 - 05:19pm PT
“there is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody…Part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.” Elizabeth Warren
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Oct 3, 2011 - 05:21pm PT
Credit: TKingsbury
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:29pm PT
It's funny that someone would support the many tea party protests, ostensibly protesting higher taxes when no taxes have been raised,

but diss the Occupy Wall Street protesters when the Bankers crashed our economy and hosed the housing market and harmed us all.

Who really cost the people money? If you are unselfish, or selfish, the bankers have been the cause of great suffering to yourself and others and have escaped any criminal liability. Have they been proven innocent? No! They just got a pass. WHat happened to responsibility and accountability?

Just for poor people, I get it

Peace

Karl
malabarista

Trad climber
Portland, OR
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:40pm PT
If you really want to protest the Wall Street system, you don't have to invest in it. I don't anymore. I don't believe in the us versus them thing on this. We (the collective) bought in to this system (Wall Street) knowing the game was rigged. At a certain point a few years ago I'd had enough, and sold all my investments. I'm out. That is the real protest. I am free to spend my capital on whatever I choose and invest it in other things. I do stand in spirit with the protesters whenever they protest using my tax dollars to bail out "Wall Street", which I want no part of saving since I'm not invested in it. I think if you are talking about "reforming Wall Street" it's barking up the wrong tree. It's rigged and it's always been rigged.


"Wall Street has nothing to do with creating capital for businesses, its original goal. Wall Street is a platform. It’s a platform to be exploited by every technological and intellectual means possible." -Mark Cuban

Source:

http://blogmaverick.com/2011/08/08/what-business-is-wall-street-in-2/
malabarista

Trad climber
Portland, OR
Oct 3, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
I'm lucky that I've never had a problem yet getting a job since my field still seems to be in demand. I am very lucky and grateful for that luck. I still think people have to quit participation in this sham of a system as much as possible for the protest to have any meaning. How many people are out there protesting while still dumping money into their 401K?

I would be fine with discontinuing social security as long as the government is willing to pay me back everything I put in with modest interest. If they try to steal what we people actually paid in to the system which was to be guaranteed for retirement then there should be a revolution.
jstan

climber
Oct 3, 2011 - 08:01pm PT
A while ago I posted the real Dow Jones showing long term real rate of increase is less than 2% and the last decade has been a no-winner. The plot shows to gain you have to actively trade. Something everyone says small investors are unable to do. And the dollar cost averaging brokers propose as a solution makes sense only if there is in fact an upward trend. Which there is not and has not been for more than ten years.

Don’t believe the data? Read the Wall Street Journal.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204831304576592822485984958.html

European nations, flirting with recession, can't agree on how to climb out from under their pile of debt. The U.S. is careening toward a budget fight that threatens to shut down the government. China's mammoth economy may be downshifting.

Economic fragility world-wide is causing investors to retreat from stocks. Traders signal offers on S&P 500 stock-index options in Chicago on Friday.

And across the financial markets, a sea change is taking place. Investors are abandoning the time-tested "stocks for the long run" optimism that dominated since the late 1980s. Instead, there is a widening belief that the mess left behind by the housing bubble and financial crisis will be a morass to contend with for years.

In a historic retreat, investors world-wide during the three months through August pulled some $92 billion out of stock funds in the developed markets, according to data provider EPFR Global—an exodus that more than reversed the total amount of money investors had put into those funds since stocks bottomed in 2009. The withdrawals matched the worst three-month period during the depths of the financial crisis.

CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 08:16pm PT
but diss the Occupy Wall Street protesters when the Bankers crashed our economy and hosed the housing market and harmed us all.


Karl, do you really think Bankers crashed our economy? It had nothing to do with this?

Credit: CrackAddict

This is the total credit market debt from 1920 on as a percent of GDP (so it is inflation adjusted). You see, all Wall Street does is peddle whatever we produce. Unfortunately our main export in the last 25 years has been debt. The biggest culprit here is the Fed though - the steepest sections of this graph correlate strongly with very low interest rate regimes. What banks do makes very good sense in the context of the sandbox they are given. Right now there is no incentive to even take deposits - it is cheaper to borrow at a negative effective rate from the Fed and loan it back to the Government to misallocate, which leads to recession after recession. The longer we try to avoid the pain by bailing out, printing money, stimulating, etc., the longer our economy stays disfunctional and the worse the eventual pain.

In order to get out of a recession, capital has to fall into the hands of those who can make a profit with it, on average. Government has NEVER been able to do this. Right now our ROI on government spending is about 20%(!). When the government bails out or throws stimulus at politically connected companies, the return is not much better than this (see Solyndra). Artifically low interest rates make the situation far worse: Companies that should never see the light of day get capital, creating an economic Galapagos full of companies that would never be able to compete in a tighter economy.

Bad companies have to go bankrupt. Jobs will be lost, but the long term cost of the alternative is far worse.

Again, you can throw every bank CEO in jail right now, but unless structural changes are made, we are not getting out of this funk.
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
You are assuming that unrestricted capitalism works. Plenty of reasons to think it does not. The only arguments I have seen in favor of unrestricted capitalism are tainted by aggressive indoctrination.

Nobody is arguing for "unrestricted capitalism", whatever that is, but Government needs to get out of the way unless there is a compelling reason to think the private sector cannot function correctly without them (i.e., in cases with a misalligned profit motive). But if you make the argument that capitalism itself does not work, please give an example of a country that has become wealthy without it.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 3, 2011 - 08:39pm PT
In the old days, class warriors were proverbial men of the people who made an effort to match their lifestyles with their rhetoric. Not now. When President Obama rails about "millionaires," we expect that in a few hours our Class Warrior in Chief will golf with Wall Street fat cats to hit them up for campaign money. We presume that the First Family prefers Costa del Sol, Martha's Vineyard or Vail to a passé Camp David.

If director Michael Moore or New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg warns us about impending rioting and class strife, we assume both live in huge homes and are multimillionaires. The new class-warfare coalitions are comprised mostly of the less well-off and the very well-off, one wishing for ever more state help, the other rich enough to not mind bestowing it. No wonder both demonize as greedy and racist Tea Baggers those in the middle who are most likely to feel the cost of ever more government.

....



Post Modern Class Warfare.


Class warfare is now not about brutal elemental poverty of the sort Charles Dickens or Knut Hamsun once wrote about. It is too often the anger that arises from not having something that someone else has, whether or not such style, privilege or discretionary choices are all that necessary. Endemic obesity, not malnutrition, threatens America — including the nearly 50 million Americans who are on food stamps.

These are hard times, with high unemployment rates and economic stagnation. But we are not a nation of the malnourished and starving who are preyed upon by idle rich drones who pay no taxes. And a government that borrows $4 billion a day and spends $2 trillion more a year than it did just 10 years ago is hardly stingy.


http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson100311.html
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 08:50pm PT
Nobody is arguing for "unrestricted capitalism", whatever that is, but Government needs to get out of the way unless there is a compelling reason to think the private sector cannot function correctly without them (i.e., in cases with a misalligned profit motive). But if you make the argument that capitalism itself does not work, please give an example of a country that has become wealthy without it.


Yep.

Solyndra is an example of unrestricted socialism gone wrong. All the capitalists were saying it was a bad deal, and it was. Yet gov't forced it upon us, and we taxpayers lose.

Are any of those stupid anarchists in Brooklyn bitching about that???
spidey

Trad climber
Berkeley CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 09:08pm PT
Something is Happening, and you don't know what it is...do you, Mr. Jones...
spidey

Trad climber
Berkeley CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 09:11pm PT
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/catherine-crier/capitalists-of-america--u_b_992786.html

Capitalists of America -- Unite! (Why Adam Smith would be marching today)
Posted: 10/3/11 03:24 PM ET

That's my rallying cry for the protestors on Wall Street, for the millions of citizens who are unemployed, for the anti-government Tea Partiers and for the nation's small business owners and entrepreneurs. It is time to expose the imposters and reclaim capitalism for the American people.

Today, Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations is considered a Bible for capitalism, but when published in 1776, it was a blasphemous challenge to the big business, big government mercantilism in Europe. Smith's free market theories expanded economic opportunity, promoted competition and encouraged innovation, in large part, by attacking the "concentrated wealth and power" of Britain's commercial elite.

More than taxation without representation, it was the corrupt British economic system that ignited the American Revolution -- just read the entire Declaration of Independence. This insidious corruption was a major focus of Smith's economic treatise. Smith's theories dovetailed beautifully with Thomas Jefferson's political manifesto, and his writings became the framework for our capitalist philosophy. But as both men learned in their lifetime, theory and practice are rarely in sync.

In a Faustian bargain, our leaders pay homage to Smith's ideals, but from the outset, they have ignored his model in favor of rapid national expansion and global economic power. What we call capitalism is, in fact, the American version of mercantilism. Ludwig von Mises, a libertarian economist, summed up its benefits rather nicely: "Capitalism gave the world what it needed, a higher standard of living for a growing population." Measured thusly, the results have been breathtakingly successful, but if the goal is the long-term viability of our economic and political democracy, we are in serious trouble.

Just as Jeffersonian democracy operates best on a small scale, Adam Smith believed his self-correcting free markets were ideal for small businesses in a domestic economy. Integrated in their communities, these businesses would be influenced directly by the needs and demands of consumers, and any dangerous or abusive conduct would rarely affect the broader economy. But Smith treated large, powerful companies very differently. He said big business was led by "an order of men...that generally have an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public", and he referred to powerful corporations (then known as joint stock companies) as "unaccountable sovereigns" that were as dangerous to free markets as tyrannical governments. Unrestrained, they had the power to shape society and governments for their own purposes, and consumers would pay for "all the extraordinary profits" while suffering from "all the extraordinary waste", the inherent fraud and abuse, that accompanies such immense economic power.

Smith stated emphatically that a strong government, acting through democratic and legal institutions, was the only entity capable of challenging such corporate power. Smith supported necessary government regulations, labor and human rights, public education, and progressive taxation to ease the economic and social inequities he knew would occur in a capitalist system. Without these "liberal" measures, social and political unrest would threaten a nation's stability and his free market economy could not survive.

While Thomas Jefferson applauded Smith's theories, the 'father of American conservatism', Alexander Hamilton, denounced this philosophy as nonsense. Hamilton intended to establish America as a global powerhouse in short order. He was thinking big and didn't have time for Smith's small-scale, go-slow approach. Britain's mercantile system was elitist and abusive, but Hamilton knew it was the engine that drove England's powerful economy. As Secretary of the Treasury, he planned to use that very system to propel America onto the world stage.

Both his plan and its execution were brilliant. Hamilton set out to consolidate power in the new federal government by controlling the money supply, tariffs and trade and by managing the nation's industrial development. Farmers and shopkeepers couldn't provide the revenue he needed, nor could they finance the commercial development and infrastructure necessary for America to play in the big leagues. Hamilton needed big money and powerful partners in the private sector.

To accomplish this, he used the courts and Federalist Congress to institutionalize a powerful federal government and corporatist economy, a practice continued by his successors. The myth that corporations are somehow "persons" and equivalent to the human beings Adam Smith was liberating in his free market utopia is possibly the most successful coup in the history of the world, achieved with the stroke of a judicial pen in 1886.

Despite warnings by prescient Republican presidents like Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt and Dwight Eisenhower, the American system has morphed quite predictably into a dog-eat-dog economic Darwinism, and the **big canines have rigged the game in their favor.

Flying the capitalist flag, the really big guys have completely corrupted Smith's free market philosophy. They use their concentrated wealth and power to buy off politicians, skate around regulations, abuse their privileges and sometimes, break the laws to win. When their politicians and corporate-sponsored "citizen" groups insist that small government and the market itself are sufficient checks, that further controls are a socialist plot to destroy capitalism, they are counting on our collective naiveté to win the game. They are destroying free enterprise by abusing the very freedoms intrinsic to a market economy.

That so many conservatives, adamant that they are defending true capitalism, would fail to make this distinction, gives credence to the power of the "big lie." They have so internalized this nonsense, that again and again, they are willing to defend transnational behemoths over the well-being of the American economy.

As one (somewhat mysterious) financial trader said in a BBC TV interview last week, a crashing economy is a brilliant opportunity for savvy insiders to make a killing. The economic well-being of a nation or its citizens is not a major factor in the world of transnational commerce. Predicting that the economic crisis will deepen, he summed up his message with a smile -- governments don't rule the world, Goldman Sachs rules the world.

For true American patriots who believe in a vibrant free market economy, it is time to recognize we've been sold a bill of goods. The real enemy in the battle for American capitalism is not socialism; it is global corporatism. For true patriots, conservatives and liberals alike, the stakes could not be higher.

My new book, Patriot Acts -- What Americans Must Do to Save the Republic, examines the true nature of our constitutional system, how it has been interpreted and manipulated by conservatives and liberals since 1789, the effect of partisan ideology on this democratic system, including the economy, national security, health care, education and immigration, and how modern politicians betray the founding principles, constitutional system and economic capitalism that all Americans, left and right, profess to defend. Patriot Acts can be preordered on-line and will be released on November 1, 2011.

Patriotacts.com, catherine@patriotacts.com
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 3, 2011 - 09:15pm PT
Yet gov't forced it upon us, and we taxpayers lose.

I totally agree!

Just like Iraq.. 1 trillion dollars versus half a billion. those damn socialist.

Why can't they think big like the Republicans?
spidey

Trad climber
Berkeley CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 09:26pm PT
You know something? [Wall Street] will get it. They'll get it all from you sooner or later, 'cause they own this f*in' place. It's a big club, and you ain't in it. You and I are not in the big club. ... The table is tilted, folks. The game is rigged. And nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care. Good, honest hard working people ... continue to elect these rich c*suckers who don't give a f*** about them.

-George Carlin
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 10:07pm PT
I'm not saying bank bailouts were good. They should have been allowed to fail if they made bad decisions.

But blaming "wealthy" people on this problem is somewhat misguided. This was a Fannie/Freddie problem coupled with some other factors.

The anarchists demonstrating are mostly lazy anti-capitalist commies. They can go f*#k themselves for all I care. Go to work, get a job!

Quit being a PITA to people who choose to go to work and lead responsible lives!~
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 3, 2011 - 10:20pm PT
"if you don't like the world, don't bitch and moan, do something about it!"

bill graham rock promoter

his shows always started at 8:00 pm

never 8:01, always 8. dude was badass

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 3, 2011 - 10:22pm PT
Weschrist writes:

"Uh... if government isn't going to restrict corporate greed, who is?"


In a free country, what business does the government have restricting anybody's *greed* ?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 10:41pm PT
This whole she-bang resulted from many things;

Fannie/Freddie basically forcing banks to give loans to losers.

The repeal of the Glass-Stiegal Act.

Reapealing the 'uptick rule' in bond/stock trading. (A big one!!!).

Short selling.


In short, yeah, there needs to be regulations in a free-market system. But to pin this on rich right-wingers is misguided. The lefties soak the system and the rules just as much.

Put the regs back into place. Wealthy people create jobs. Let them continue to do so. It's the traders who are f*#king us!
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 3, 2011 - 10:44pm PT
I think it's pretty clear from watching the rapid economic rise of East Asia that state managed capitalism is far more efficient than the individualistic laisez faire version practiced in America. It doesn't matter if it is managed by the left (China) or the right (Singapore) or moderately democratic, center leaning, right regimes (South Korea, Japan, Taiwan), what's important is having professional economists running the country instead of hack politicians backed by selfish and greedy corporate interest who care only for their own welfare and that of their company and not the country and its people as a whole.

All of these successful economies also level the playing field by government sponsored basic services to their citizens such as education and health care.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 3, 2011 - 10:45pm PT
only smart people should breed.

no wait, i sound like hank jr

global warming is gonna kick everybody's ass, so screw politics because...




































































your gonna die!

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 10:47pm PT
what's important is having professional economists running the country instead of hack politicians backed by selfish and greedy corporate interest who care only for their own welfare and that of their company and not the country and its people as a whole.

Like Paul Krugman???
dirtbag

climber
Oct 3, 2011 - 10:49pm PT
Glad you agree that Krugman should have a greater role.

;-)
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Oct 3, 2011 - 10:50pm PT
punkz!!!
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 3, 2011 - 10:50pm PT
oh yeah, lets bring back warren greenspan,
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 3, 2011 - 10:53pm PT
sorry, i meant alex greenspoon
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 3, 2011 - 11:01pm PT
The top 10% have 80% to 90% of stocks, bonds, trust funds, and business equity...

And they just lost their asses in the past 2-weeks. Is it becuase of them of gov't lack of policy? Uncertainty due to lack of leadership and misguided Keynesian policy?

Or is it because of stout leadership and faith in markets?

The man in the WH breathes uncertainty and distrust of our current direction.

EDIT: Greenspan was a putz too.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Oct 4, 2011 - 01:28am PT
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 4, 2011 - 01:35am PT
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."




Lovegas,

Right on!




OK SuperTopians, let's take a moment for a teach-in. We have a great teachable moment here. Let's not waste it.


What's going on for real?




Occupy U.S.A., with Jeff Madrick - Countdown with Keith Olbermann (Prof./Author of The Age of Greed)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x621442
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0o1DpNSkpc

Moore From The Street, with Michael Moore:Countdown with Keith Olbermann
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x621447
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXVz3378pcQ

Tomorrow the World? with Michael Moore - Countdown with Keith Olbermann
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x621452
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXJcjonMckY

OccupyWallStreet Protester - DESTROYS - Fox News Reporter!!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x621083
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yrT-0Xbrn4




The Bible on the Poor
or, Why God is a liberal
http://www.zompist.com/meetthepoor.html



Luke 12:48 (KJV)
" . . . For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 4, 2011 - 02:21am PT
Crack wrote

This is the total credit market debt from 1920 on as a percent of GDP (so it is inflation adjusted). You see, all Wall Street does is peddle whatever we produce. Unfortunately our main export in the last 25 years has been debt.

It's more complicated than that. Wall Street Created much extra debt without responsibility by loaning to people who couldn't afford it, telling them housing was only going to appreciate, and then offloading that risk from themselves by securitizing it, and then further leveraging with CDOs. They sold that crap to other suckers who had no way of knowing what was truly inside those securities and the credit-worthiness of those loans were lied about. This was made possible by deregulation, greed and often Fraud. (Cooking the loan books and much more)

The biggest culprit here is the Fed though - the steepest sections of this graph correlate strongly with very low interest rate regimes. What banks do makes very good sense in the context of the sandbox they are given. Right now there is no incentive to even take deposits - it is cheaper to borrow at a negative effective rate from the Fed and loan it back to the Government to misallocate, which leads to recession after recession.

I'm all for getting rid of the Fed, which you will note is NOT a government body and is comprised of Banksters! It's an insane and crude scam that Banks are able to take the gift that they have given themselves by having a negative effective rate and milking it at the people's (Government's) expense while not loaning to the people. Yes the structure is wrong. It should be changed but don't blame government. Government not truly existing is the problem. Private industry deregulated has already proven more corrupt.

Government is screwed up here because they have been bought GOP and DEM alike by big business and are populated by a revolving door of big Wall Street criminals like Larry Summers and Geitner and the rest, All former executives of the same firms that sodomized the country.

So yeah, I'm critical of Government too, but getting rid of government isn't the answer, it's already been done by selling out to Wall Street control which is why nobody went to jail for the 2008 crisis while LOTS of people went to Jail for the S&L crisis back during the First Bush days.

Which brings up a another point. Seems like there is this Boom Bust cycle, that seems engineered by Wall Street and the Fed that always manages to bust right at the end of a presidential term limit. Doesn't matter whether it's GOP or DEM. Dotcom busted after Clinton, housing busted at the end of Bush, Carter went out with a Bust, and then the S&L.

And after all these busts, the super-rich last-guys-standing, who have made bank on the boom, buy up all the losers in the bust.

Just watch it

Peace

Karl
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 4, 2011 - 04:04am PT
karl, how many chicks?

gf

climber
Oct 4, 2011 - 05:30am PT
It's the traders who are f*#king us!
Far be from me to defend short-sellers, but all they are doing is amplifying bad calls by countries (97 asian meltdown anyone), banks or individuals.
But then again, the best way to outlaw short sellers is to outlaw poor judgment -and i don't think we can outlaw people voting repub :/
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Oct 4, 2011 - 09:01am PT
Want to know the background of what happened to us financially?

Want to know why people are marching and protesting?



Inside Job - Download the FULL Movie

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xekoka_inside-job-download-the-full-movie_shortfilms


Good short review of the movie:
http://www.sbs.com.au/films/movie/7817/Inside-Job-


If you haven't seen this movie yet, then you must. There were 2 9-11s. One near the beginning of Bush's time in office and then the economic 9-11 right at the end. Gee, both on his watch. Who would of thunk? What are the odds of that?
gf

climber
Oct 4, 2011 - 09:07am PT
Thank goodness for the movie to tell us what happened, it just makes me want to get out in the street, wall or main and tell the man that I'm as mad as hell and aren't going to take it anymore. Oh hang on, I just noticed that the cows got out and i'd best go close the barn door. be right back
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 4, 2011 - 09:38am PT
Good grief, here we go with the “general welfare” clause again as if the whole Constitution were spun around it. It is one of six clauses in a perambulatory statement explaining why the actual document was written. And while yes, it is there, it is clearly the most softly stated of the six, beginning as it does with the word “promote.” Read it again if you will.

Each of the other five clauses is stated with more assertive language, for example “provide for the common defense.” To form…, establish…, insure…, provide…, and finally to “secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity” are all more definitive statements. To promote does not mean to insure or to provide or to establish or to secure.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 4, 2011 - 09:57am PT
Yeah, the preamble doesn't really mean much.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 4, 2011 - 10:08am PT
I didn't say it doesn't mean much. I just think the words are very carefully chosen. I like words and think they have meaning.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 4, 2011 - 10:18am PT
Then there's the little problem of the tenth amendment that overides all that proceeds.
spidey

Trad climber
Berkeley CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 12:29pm PT
+1 for Inside Job - watched it last night, gives a great explanation for what really happened with interviews with the banksters, footage from congressional testimony, interviews with economists, etc.

Even the professional economists are in on it. They all get paid by the banksters too.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 4, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
The French Revolution is the template for all mob uprisings, and the signal event of that lunacy was an attack on a prison housing only half a dozen prisoners.

As best anyone can tell, the storming of the Bastille was instigated by a rumor that the laughably impotent King Louis XVI was about to stage an attack on the National Assembly. Or perhaps they were upset that the inept finance minister, Jacques Necker, had been fired. Or they thought the Bastille was an eyesore.

(The only other possible cause was recently ruled out when it was conclusively determined that France had no teachers unions in the late 18th century.)

No one is sure -- but a good time was had by all! Except the prison administrators murdered in the attack.

Liberals love mobs because rioting and anarchy is their path to power.

Making sound proposals based on facts and logic is not their metier. Issuing impossible promises to the easily fooled is their specialty. For more on this, see "The 2012 Democratic Platform."

The entire Democratic Party is currently promising to "save" Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid in their present form. According to Obama's own Treasury Secretary, Tim Geithner, in less than 10 years, spending on those three entitlement programs, plus servicing the national debt, will consume 92 cents of every dollar in the federal budget.

The Democrats are openly lying to voters. It is a mathematical impossibility for these programs to continue without major reform now, or complete bankruptcy later -- and not very much later.

But Democrats' real achievement has been in destroying the family, and thereby creating an endless supply of potential rioters.

When blacks were only four generations out of slavery, their illegitimacy rate was about 23 percent (lower than the white illegitimacy rate is now). Then Democrats decided to help them! Barely two generations since LBJ's Great Society programs began, the black illegitimacy rate has tripled to 72 percent.

Meanwhile, the white illegitimacy rate has septupled, from 4 percent to 29 percent.

Instead of a "War on Poverty," it should have been called a "War on the Family."

The vast and permanent underclass created by the welfare state is a great success story for the Democratic Party, which now has a loyal constituency of deadbeats who automatically vote for the Democrats to keep their Trojan horse "benefits" flowing.

It's the Democrats' "heroin dealer" model of government.

Apparently, it takes a lot of government workers to minister to the poor, inasmuch as government employment has skyrocketed in tandem with the family's disintegration. As long as Democrats are serving their principal constituency -- recipients of taxpayer money -- they don't care what happens to the rest of society.

They champion any mob that will increase their political power. Liberals promote welfare dependency, class warfare, endless government programs staffed with public sector workers, street protests, coddling criminals and physical attacks on their ideological opponents. This is how they create reliable Democratic voters.

True, government employees are doing jobs we don't want done, can never be fired, are bankrupting the country and periodically break out in mob violence.

True, also, that the children of broken families sometimes burn city blocks to the ground or kill their great-grandmothers with swords. But what a voting bloc!


http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2011-08-17.html
spidey

Trad climber
Berkeley CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 01:01pm PT
Wow. what a bunch of drivel. (edit - referring to Coulter's article above)
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 01:02pm PT
Kris I can't believe that you don't understand the importance of the preamble to the constitution.
Each & every word is of the utmost importance, it's setting up the whole constitution.
It was writen by Gouverneur Morris. The job was given to him for many reasons. The most important one being that Gouverneur had not signed the Declaration of Independence, because he thought that working people could not govern them selfs. Without the ruling class to govern them they would kill each other & steal what was left. By 1787 he had radical change he understood that all people have a right to self govern & that the sole job of goverment was to care for it's people.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 4, 2011 - 01:24pm PT
See Inside job! Might as well know why our rear ends sting


Want to know the background of what happened to us financially?

Want to know why people are marching and protesting?



Inside Job - Download the FULL Movie

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xekoka_inside-job-download-the-full-movie_shortfilms


Good short review of the movie:
http://www.sbs.com.au/films/movie/7817/Inside-Job-
spidey

Trad climber
Berkeley CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 01:26pm PT
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jared-bernstein/occupy-wall-st-this-is-no_b_994388.html

Occupy Wall St.: This Is Not a Head Scratcher

Last night I heard a story on NPR about the Wall St. protest that is now spreading to other cities. The gist of the story was: "what are these protests really about? What do they want?"

I'm sorry, but that's just not a head scratcher. Do these news analysts think it's a coincidence that they're occupying Wall St. as opposed to Columbus Ave north of 79th?

As Andrew Sorkin put it today (after writing that the message was "at times...hard to discern"):

... the demonstrators are seeking accountability for Wall Street and corporate America for the financial crisis and the growing economic inequality gap.

I'm not saying everyone down there is ready to give a clear exposition of the facts of the case, but commentators can stop scratching their heads now.

I've been writing about these problems for decades. Sometimes they've gotten a little better, but mostly they've gotten worse. Before the downturn, the share of income held by the top 1% was 23.5%, the highest since 1928 and more than twice the 10% level of the late 1970s.

These are growth shares, as in they have to sum to 100%-when one group's share goes up like that, everybody else's has to shrink.

That doesn't mean real income values can't rise for other groups, of course (though it does imply slower relative growth, compared to the high end). But in fact, the middle class and the poor haven't seen that either... the decade of the 2000s saw middle-incomes decline in real terms for working-age households. The recession just made those incomes fall faster.

Protest movements are often born of two interacting injustices: the lack of opportunity and the lack of accountability by the persons perceived to be blocking that opportunity.

Given the facts of the income distribution, the trends in real middle-class incomes and poverty, the failure of policy to do much to change these trends, the government bailouts of the only class that's benefited from the recovery so far, the absence of clear punishment/accountability for the financial and political institutions that helped inflate the debt bubble that continues to squeeze economies across the globe, and the dysfunctionality of the current political system (they're arguing more about whether they can keep the lights on than whether they can help solve the economic problems), the more interesting question is what took so long for such protests to show up?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 4, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
Ann C is a ^*&(()&

She decries all this additional money supposedly going to the poor! Without mentioning the MUCH GREATER increase in military spending

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=125

By Richard Kogan
Revised March 6, 2008

Some may think the President’s recent attempts to squeeze domestic appropriations are being made in response to an explosion of domestic discretionary funding during his Administration’s first six years. But this is not correct: there has been no such funding explosion for domestic discretionary programs. Between fiscal year 2001 (the last year for which appropriations levels were set under President Clinton) and fiscal year 2008, funding for domestic discretionary programs has been more constrained than any other area of the budget and has shrunk both as a share of the budget and as a share of the economy. In contrast, appropriations for defense and other security-related programs have increased more rapidly than any other area of the budget — even more rapidly than the costs of the “big three” entitlement programs: Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.

Then the Idiot writes

But Democrats' real achievement has been in destroying the family, and thereby creating an endless supply of potential rioters.

When blacks were only four generations out of slavery, their illegitimacy rate was about 23 percent (lower than the white illegitimacy rate is now). Then Democrats decided to help them! Barely two generations since LBJ's Great Society programs began, the black illegitimacy rate has tripled to 72 percent.

Meanwhile, the white illegitimacy rate has septupled, from 4 percent to 29 percent.


Of course she claims Democrats destroyed the family without any citation or evidence. You have to wonder what the illegitimacy rate would be if the GOP's position of banning Abortion were enacted.

But here's a bit more from the link regarding spending

There has been no rapid rise in funding for domestic discretionary programs in recent years; in fact these programs have shrunk both as a share of the budget and as a share of the economy.
In contrast, funding for defense and related programs has exploded. Since 2001, it has jumped at an annual average rate of 8 percent, after adjusting for inflation and population — four times faster than the average rate of growth for Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid (2 percent), and 27 times faster than the average rate for growth for domestic discretionary programs (0.3 percent).
Funding for defense and related programs has shot up by 2 percent of GDP in just seven years. It is expected to take more than two decades for Social Security to grow by 2 percent of GDP.

Even when costs for Iraq, Afghanistan, and the “global war on terror” are excluded, funding for the regular defense budget has risen at a stunning rate that dwarfs the growth rates for all parts of the domestic budget.

The combined effect of the Administration’s tax cuts and its defense spending increases (including the war) has been a budget deterioration equal to 3.3 percent of GDP since 2001. By contrast, increases in costs for all domestic programs combined have cost a little less than 0.6 percent of GDP.

The GOP has taken to talking sh#t out of context and just saying what they want you to believe, not what's true. It is the military budget that has more than doubled since 2001. Why don't they care?

Peace

karl

Ps, The "Welfare Class" doesn't vote as much as you think. Better beware if they start cause there is a lot more very poor than very rich
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 4, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
The GOP has taken to talking sh#t out of context and just saying what they want you to believe, not what's true. It is the military budget that has more than doubled since 2001. Why don't they care?

Because defense spending is as close as they are ever going to get to defending their country. Plenty O democrats in that lineup too. The more you spend the bigger the patriot you can pretend to be! Yee HAH!

DMT
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 4, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
Everyone in this country should be required to listen to the farewell address of this Republican Military General Turned President

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY

Peace

Karl
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 4, 2011 - 02:03pm PT
Karl is correct:

The poor simply do not vote, or do vote at a rate much lower than the "middle class".


And Fattrad, the fact is that American capitalism simply cannot create enough jobs for anywhere near "full" employment. In that sense, capitalism is a "failure".

So that leaves us with tens of millions of Americans who, not by choice, will never find jobs and contribute any tax dollars from earned income to society at large. FACT

So, what to do with "them"?

That question was answered over 50 years ago when "we" decided that we would not let Americans live anymore without some kind of safety net.

Safety net means "welfare", food stamps, SS and Medicare.

Now you can be an ignorant ass and say the "Dems" created this situation, but the fact is that abject poverty existed in America long long before any social programs existed.

Why don't you try pulling your head out of your ass and propose solutions to problems instead of sitting in the bleachers and repeating tired old talking points like a child.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Oct 4, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
"Now you can be an ignorant ass and say the "Dems" created this situation, but the fact is that abject poverty existed in America long long before any social programs existed.

Why don't you try pulling your head out of your ass and propose solutions to problems instead of sitting in the bleachers and repeating tired old talking points like a child."

Because stupidity has been around even longer then poverty?
10b4me

Boulder climber
Happy Boulders
Oct 4, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
reminds of the people that walk around wearing Che Guevarra t-shirts while living in a capitalist country.
but hey, I liked Che
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 4, 2011 - 02:21pm PT
Saw one of those guys in the Minneapolis airport last week... middle aged geezer, his Che shirt under a flannel long sleeve, (seriously) and a nice vente Star Bucks clutched in his pudgy mitt... hahahahahahaha!

DMT
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Oct 4, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
Ksolem:
Good grief, here we go with the “general welfare” clause again as if the whole Constitution were spun around it. It is one of six clauses in a perambulatory statement explaining why the actual document was written. And while yes, it is there, it is clearly the most softly stated of the six, beginning as it does with the word “promote.” Read it again if you will.

Each of the other five clauses is stated with more assertive language, for example “provide for the common defense.” To form…, establish…, insure…, provide…, and finally to “secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity” are all more definitive statements. To promote does not mean to insure or to provide or to establish or to secure.

????



Ksolem, apparently you do not possess the language skills of the framers.
Allow me to alleviate your ignorance.
Here's a language lesson for you.

promote|prəˈmōt|
verb [ trans. ]

ORIGIN late Middle English : from Latin promot- ‘moved forward,’ from the verb promovere, from pro- ‘forward, onward’ + movere ‘to move'.

1 further the progress of (something, esp. a cause, venture, or aim); support or actively encourage : some regulation is still required to promote competition.
• give publicity to (a product, organization, or venture) so as to increase sales or public awareness : they are using famous personalities to promote the library nationally.
• Chemistry act as a promoter of (a catalyst).
2 (often be promoted) advance or raise (someone) to a higher position or rank : she was promoted to general manager.
• transfer (a sports team) to a higher division of a league : they were promoted from the Third Division last season.
• Chess exchange (a pawn) for a more powerful piece of the same color, typically a queen, as part of the move in which it reaches the opponent's end of the board.
• Bridge enable (a relatively low card) to win a trick by playing off the higher ones first.
DERIVATIVES
promotability |prəˌmōtəˈbilətē| noun
promotable adjective
promotive |-tiv| adjective




That's right: PROMOTE!
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 4, 2011 - 02:31pm PT
That's pretty funny Dingus, and one reason why this well meant movement is probably ( and unfortunately) doomed for obscurity in the annals of history.

This thread has degenerated to a point where I just kinda wanna nuke it.

But that's not very democratic I guess.
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Oct 4, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
I'm all for getting rid of the Fed, which you will note is NOT a government body and is comprised of Banksters! It's an insane and crude scam that Banks are able to take the gift that they have given themselves by having a negative effective rate and milking it at the people's (Government's) expense while not loaning to the people. Yes the structure is wrong. It should be changed but don't blame government. Government not truly existing is the problem. Private industry deregulated has already proven more corrupt.

Government is screwed up here because they have been bought GOP and DEM alike by big business and are populated by a revolving door of big Wall Street criminals like Larry Summers and Geitner and the rest, All former executives of the same firms that sodomized the country.

So yeah, I'm critical of Government too, but getting rid of government isn't the answer, it's already been done by selling out to Wall Street control which is why nobody went to jail for the 2008 crisis while LOTS of people went to Jail for the S&L crisis back during the First Bush days.

Which brings up a another point. Seems like there is this Boom Bust cycle, that seems engineered by Wall Street and the Fed that always manages to bust right at the end of a presidential term limit. Doesn't matter whether it's GOP or DEM. Dotcom busted after Clinton, housing busted at the end of Bush, Carter went out with a Bust, and then the S&L.

And after all these busts, the super-rich last-guys-standing, who have made bank on the boom, buy up all the losers in the bust.

Karl, I think you are right on with many of these points, esp. about the Fed and it's interplay with the banks. But I don't believe deregulation had anything to do with our problems, and in fact I don't believe any real deregulation occured (congress chose NOT to regulate derivatives, but that is not deregulation). Getting rid of the Glass-Steagall act did nothing because banks already had workarounds. There is a strong correlation between the amount of regulation a country has and its level of corruption - politicians impose barriers, and make money by granting people exemptions to these barriers. Regulation is seldom made to solve real problems. For example, a very simple regulation that would do more than the entire Dodd-Frank is to make financial institutions carry collateral for any derivative they write, for example if a Credit Default Swap could potentially pay out $1 Million if a company defaults, the financial institution should have to keep that million in reserve (which they hate to do).

The best regulation is RISK. That means everyone plays with their own money. People who buy worthless mortgage backed securities suffer the consequences when their value goes to zero. Pension funds lose the money and have to answer to their employee unions, their managers are FIRED. A big part of our problems is this bailout entitlement, where there is an arbitrary "the loss stops here" mentality. This causes bad decisions to be reinforced, and bad money managers to double down (pension funds are now making even riskier bets to try to make up what was lost in 2008). Nothing will get better unless people have to suffer the consequences of their actions.

The boom-and-bust cycle is a simple consequence of easy money that gets misallocated. Money goes into investments that should never see the light of day, usually because of government subsidies (i.e. housing programs) and this creates a positive feedback loop in the price that always overshoots - because the price is based on projected price appreciation, not intrinsic value. When the market corrects, as it always does, this works in reverse. Sure there are losers who get "bought up" in this bust, but a fool and their money were lucky enough to get together in the first place. If you want to end (or at least minimize) this cycle, get rid of the Fed and let interest rates rise to the value the Market sets. The prime mover of the housing boom was when Bush pushed interest rates to near zero after Sept. 11. The spread between the prime rate and Fannie Mae bonds was close to 7%- guaranteed return, and of course it was far greater for sub prime. This was the updraft that caused bankers to lie, beg, borrow, steal, etc.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Where are you bound?
Oct 4, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
I'd nuke it just to piss off the 'Tards.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 4, 2011 - 02:35pm PT
Right on Brandon, agree with the Cap'n... nuke it. Its good for the monkeys.

DMT
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