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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Ah, James, tell us more.
When we were supping with Ed and Helen, the subject of "Cleaning Europa cost an incredible amount," came up. Of course, having cleaned my fair share of pitches at Squamish, I immediately thought, "Yeah? Like what? A few hundred dollars?"
But Ed and Helen both said no, it was something like $14K.
And you say $17K?????? What the f*#k is up with that? And bolts? What do you mean about bolts? There are only seven bolts on the entire seven pitches (the belay at the top of p4, and bolt ladder that starts p6).
Anyone who's done any serious cleaning at Squamish knows that there's a certain investment in gardening tools and a couple of static ropes, but other than that the only cost is your time. Was he billing for his route-cleaning time? And did someone actually agree to pay him?
Tell us about this one. Seriously. This is beyond intriguing.
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Rolfr
Trad climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
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If I could charge for my time route building, I could actually retire
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Ghost. Thanks for all the info. Amusing that you had to do the whole thing. Good or bad karma?
What I am most interested in is the overall stability of the climb. Some have described it as a tottering pile of loose and oozing rubble, resulting from the massive gardening efforts of some VOC members. Others say that is an exaggeration, and despite following a fault line, and the extensive cleaning, the climb is safe and solid. Ghost??
Against my better judgement I am currently engaged in cleaning several mossy but well featured slabs. We have uncovered 10 routes so far, with maybe 8 more still buried. Not sure if I can scrub that many...... Using a wire brush all day is great for the grip.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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I climbed Crap Crags once, partly on the word of Ghost that it offered a nice view across Grand Wall. It was impossible to be sure of where the route went because of all the cedar but Neil Bennett and I happily climbed several pitches of cedar before arriving at the big ledge which takes you off right. It was hard to see anything but cedar.
I've climbed Europa many times and the view has much improved. I especially like the giant arching series of roofs that only the Black Dyke and seldom-visited aid lines surmount.
When Europa was under construction the word was that it was intended as a moderate trad route for leaders not yet ready for the harder lines. It turned out to be more of a roadside alpine route which no one without a good deal of previous climbing experience should do.
The first pitch of Europa goes up a corner on flakes which all hold each other in place. It gives a good idea of what the route is like. The rock is not super clean. However, the route is solid enough at the moment and it protects well.
Initially there was a bolt ladder to leave the right end of the big ramp ledge and get to the final crack and chimney system. There is now a face climb closely protected with bolts and a tricky crack/layback/whatever to get to the hand crack. Out of character with the rest of the climb.
The final chimney is what scares me most. Not so much the chimney but a few perched blocks to the left.
If I remember, a fair part of the cost of Europa comes from the protagonist factoring repairs to his vehicle into the total.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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View from Europa
View on Europa
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Ghost. Thanks for all the info. Amusing that you had to do the whole thing. Good or bad karma? What I am most interested in is the overall stability of the climb. Some have described it as a tottering pile of loose and oozing rubble, resulting from the massive gardening efforts of some VOC members. Others say that is an exaggeration, and despite following a fault line, and the extensive cleaning, the climb is safe and solid. Ghost??
Definitely good karma.
I think Andy's description (above this post) is pretty much spot-on. If you encountered those seven pitches on a mountain route, you'd be thinking it was incredibly solid and clean. If your experience is limited to perfectly-scrubbed crack climbs at Yosemite or Squamish, you'd probably be terrified.
And, as Andy said, it is definitely not an easy introduction to multi-pitch climbing on the Chief. If you aid the hard bit on the fifth pitch, then the 5.8/A0 rating is probably accurate. But it's no place for beginners. With one exception, the belays are all on gear; there is only one place to escape (and that didn't look attractive at all); and the climbing is seriously hard for its grade.
Also as Andy also points out, there is a short bolt ladder (five bolts) to start p6, so the total for the route is seven. and they're all at those two spots -- the rap anchor at the top of p4, and the first eight meters of p6.
Finally, where do I send the bill for all the wear and tear on my cars over the years of new-routing? I could sure use $15K or $20K.
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Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
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David, Tami and Andy, thanks for the interesting TR and comments. I've done Crap Crags but not Europa, so maybe I shouldn't comment, but....
I thought Crap Crags was a fun and adventurous route. It was, as others have said, it was definitely more "alpine" in nature than most other Squamish routes. And now it's gone.
I don't think removing the route was a good idea, but I do think the "cleaning" was done with the best of intentions. But where does the cleaning stop? Must every route be immaculately groomed (and bolted, in many cases)? It there no room for adventure, vertical bush, and grotty cracks, and doubtful rock? Is Squamish turing into one big outdoor gym? What will it look like in another 30 years? Should some areas be off-limits to cleaning? I don't know.
I do know that geological process will continue its work at CC/Europa. Rock will keep loosening, rain will continue to fall, and trees will continue t grow. Unless someone goes up there with a few 45-gallon drums of epoxy, I think we will someday get Crap Crags back again.
By the way, has anyone done any tree-ring counts on trees removed from routes such as CC, Skywalker, etc. How old were those trees?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Croft and Knight 1979 (FFA)
Overall, Glenn, Squamish retains its character while accommodating bouldering, sport climbing, and new route development. There is still a lot of room for everyone, every bug and rocks and trees. Mistakes are made and lessons learned. We are short on parking but retired folk can avoid weekends.
Yesterday we gave a lift back to Vancouver to some Mexican kids here to climb sport 13s. They say Guadalajara is home to 30 or 40 people who climb that level. A Mexican lad has been working on Cobra Crack and may have got it today. The world is coming to Squamish and we will probably be better for it. The kids from the south were full of energy and good feelings.
Tony Ellis photo
Perry Beckham story
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1159510&tn=0
We are very fortunate to have Tami Knight, Peter Croft, Glenn Woodsworth, Hamish Mutch, Perry Beckham, and many others talk to us here.
I think 30 years from now many other people many other places will recall great times had at Squamish.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Thanks to everyone for their various thoughts. I have met Jeff M several times, as he has friends locally, and he is a 'very nice guy'. We climbed together once at Waterline--lotsa fun.
I think that he was a victim of good intentions and some dubious information. Several guidebook editions ago, Kevin McLane wrote "If CC was returned to its original state, it would be the most popular climb at Squamish". Or words to that effect.
Jeff took the bait/challenge, and was soon in over his head. He could have quit part way through, but he and his friends persevered and produced either a classic or a classic disaster, depending on your pov. It's too bad the way things turned out for him. Perhaps he was destined to quit climbing anyhow, with a new PhD, new job, young child etc. etc. Hopefully he will be back one day. He has promised to drag me up E/CC if I ever get back to Squish. I may have to hold him to it.
Don't think badly of Jeff. He was a young person doing what he thought was best for 'the community'.
MH2. Your last E/CC pic is definition "clusterf*ck"
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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^
Or the defenition of a popular route...it was supposed to fall off an grow over by now...but now that the birds are gone? guess that scenario is less likely...i bet the last couple pitches get loads of traffic as an easy finish to sunset strip
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Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
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MH2, nice footwear those guys have in your last photo.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Don't think badly of Jeff. He was a young person doing what he thought was best for 'the community'.
I sure don't think badly of him. Never met him, so don't know anything about the personal side, but he's given us a pretty terrific climb. I'm not aware of anything like it a Squamish, and as long as future guidebooks retain the caveat about some loose rock, what's to complain about?
However, I'd still like to hear some stories about the getting-paid-for-a-new-route part of it.
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RyanD
climber
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Nice to see some great contributions here, Thx everyone.
I heard somewhere that the road to hell is paved with good intentions :-)
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brownie
Trad climber
squamish
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no good bolt-clippin, beta-huntin, crimp-tickin, tight-shoed, poofta-doggers. ^^
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2015 - 07:44am PT
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No time to post now, but excellent contributions here lately. (Hi Ryan and Kieran!)
Sandra and i went and hung out by the river last night for a bit...
It was fun despite the crowds.
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Baggins
Boulder climber
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Jun 11, 2015 - 10:22am PT
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Don't think badly of Jeff. He was a young person doing what he thought was best for 'the community'.
Yeah, I think the McLane guidebook, which says something like "this would be the best moderate that goes the full height of the chief if it were ever cleaned" or words to that effect led Jeff astray. I knew him briefly in my time in the VOC and he was more of an all-rounder, mostly into skiing and doing crazy backcountry stuff, not so much of a climber (like most of the VOC I found). AFAIK this was his first route he had ever cleaned.
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Baggins
Boulder climber
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Jun 11, 2015 - 01:18pm PT
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Tami - I remember this story back when he did that (2008/9?). And many seriously burly kayaking outings too. Tough guy for sure.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Jun 11, 2015 - 11:36pm PT
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If I recall correctly, Jeff swam to Anvil Island naked, and then did the hike naked and in bare feet as well. A force of nature.
Did he and some friends canoe to the Franklin and attempt the Wadd? Something like that...... Anyone?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 12, 2015 - 06:56am PT
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Did he and some friends canoe to the Franklin and attempt the Wadd? Something like that...... Anyone?
You're probably thinking of Kobus Barnard. Paddled from Vancouver Island, climbed Mt. Waddington, paddled back. Kobus was the real deal.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2015 - 08:07pm PT
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Lol! Classic! Jeff sounds like a real character for sure.
Sandra has been bugging me, to do Starchek for awhile now, so Wednesday after work, we headed down there.
On the highway we met Jeff and Adam, who were agreeable to combining ropes, so we could do the long rap.
Adam starting the long rap
Jeff starting the first pitch 5.8
Sandra was all smiles.
Chilling down by the river.
The Gorge
Chekamus River
Leaning Tower Of Pizza & Gotham City
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