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Social climber
Sep 3, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
say 4 pitches long, that is awesome. Someone adds more ok pitches (overlapping other esoteric routes in the process) & renames the whole thing even though the crux pitch was already established- free.

Hey Ryan, curious scenario; sounds like ya got something specific in mind !

It's not a black 'n' white argument for sure. As noted, sometimes folks will free a big pitch on a wall ( The Shadow, Genius Loci ) and so it makes sense that pitch would be "renamed" - although the entire route ( respectively UWall & 10Yrs After ) remain intact.

As for your scenario, I would say a rename is inappropriate however that's going on the evidence you've provided. Perhaps with more I might have a different opinion :-)

Of course the intention of the person doing the name change is what is in question here. If it's to Get Noticed, there are other ways of doing that. Go climb a new route that's never been done ! Or just be happy with doing a FFA.


Trad climber
Mountain View
Sep 3, 2013 - 06:16pm PT

Some spray from a recent trip to Squamish.

Thanks again to Ryan for coming to hang out and a bunch of beta!

It had been too long since I'd been to Squamish. What a fun place!


Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
Sep 3, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
Maybe there will be a Hamish vs Hamish battle over that pitch of Uncle Bens getting renamed The Golden Throat Charmer

Trad climber
Sep 3, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
That pitch looks brilliant.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Sep 3, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
Next time you're back Cultureshock, link the Calling's 2nd pitch in your photo with the next one above.

You will say, WOW !

Sep 3, 2013 - 09:33pm PT
Well done, cultureshock/Luke. Great climbs and pics. I really like the moment captured at the crux of New Life with Alix looking like a 5'6" person would after a long reach, and the tree patiently growing back. Good perspective on the enduro-corner of The Calling, too.


Yes, for the purist the chains come before the corner ends. But they came just in time for us.

Social climber
Vancouver, BC
Sep 3, 2013 - 10:12pm PT
That Calling dihedral is the best! Way to get on it Cultureshock! Isn't Astro Ledge scary as shiiite to cross?!!! I totally wigged out on it before.

Luke, Mad Nerd and Poodle is a way cooler name than the one we called it. Simian Response is pretty much the worst name ever.

Sep 4, 2013 - 12:06am PT
Yeah Luke(Cultureshock)! Rad TR man, super good to meet you. Hopefully we'll see u up this way again soon. Makin' the loc's look like a buncha weenies here, way to get after it.

Tami, the example I used is the Milk rd. no disrespect to Jeremy F cuz I think he does a lot of great work for the community & I'm not trying to discount his massive efforts in any way. Who knows Maybe he'll even chime in. I think its relevant to what we are talking about though & like any good junior troll in training it seemed worth mentioning. I just thought it was Interesting how it was renamed & is now listed as an entire route top 100, instead of milk run- the classic & milk rd, the upper half or extension. Maybe u guys talked about it or something & I am hardly qualified to say, just bein a weenie smokin bowls in the backyard. I would think though that when routes are renamed & reclaimed & extended & straightened out & freed that some of the historical context has the potential to be blurred. Sometimes this could be a good thing i guess. One of my favorite things about climbing is the historical context.

Relics route is a similar scenario it seems. I think simian response is a cool name Relic, whatever the hell it means.

Credit: RyanD


Social climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 01:53am PT
just bein a weenie smokin bowls in the backyard

That's the best kind !

Social climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 03:22am PT
I don't think that we have had any discussion about the ethics of renaming routes on this thread. Personally I think that it is totally lame, and seems to be more of a Squamish "thing". Other than changing the "East Face of Washinton Column" to "Astroman", I am not aware of any other name changes in Yos, although there are probably some. The EFWC was named at a time when there were very few routes on each cliff [2 or 3 on El Cap], and they were named as geographic features rather than separate lines. It made sense to later change those names [very few] to something with a more specific identity. It is worth noting that, as far as I know, none of the routes which have been freed on EC have been renamed. The FFAists are all bigger than that, and don't need the ego trip.

If the person who makes the FFA feels entitled to make a name change, how about the person who makes the first roped solo? and the first free solo? and.........

Perhaps we should make renaming a timed event, like speed records on the Nose. Then whichever party sets a new record gets to change the name. As for all of these minor variations which now seem to require a new name, the Brits have a good solution. They just refer to them as variation starts/ finishes or direct starts/finishes.

Did I mention that I think renaming is lame, lame, lame?

Sep 4, 2013 - 11:41am PT
Perfidious trustafarian lol

Sep 4, 2013 - 11:54am PT
I like the Bruce Kay point of view. He is Edward Abbey as in, "Abbey considers John McPhee 'a first rate reporter, but too mild, too nice, too cautious -- no point of view.'"

Not saying HM is John Mcphee AT ALL. I like the HM view on renaming routes and it is not too mild.

I am just putting together the parallel universe history of Squamish provided by BK.


Social climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
SPecial K :-D

Thanks for chiming in HM. :-)

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 4, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
You people up there are so quaint!
But you'd be more entertaining if you weren't so damn civil.
Mighty Hiker

Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 5, 2013 - 01:21am PT
I'm also quite unenthusiastic about renaming of routes, other than in exceptional circumstances. There's something of a spectrum, but to my mind, route re-naming simply isn't on unless most or all of the following are satisfied:

 Community consensus.
 Isn't confusing.
 Consent of those who made the FA, if feasible.
 Route has had few if any ascents.
 Route is not considered of any historic or other significance.
 Much time has passed, and the route has become overgrown.
 A great deal of work was needed to restore the route.
 Substantial variations were made.
 The route's history and original name and climbers are consistently identified. Simple respect.

Too often many of these aren't met, and those involved don't come off well.

(I'll omit comment on routes that had early, transitional names, and were soon given permanent names, with the consent of the FA team. For example, "Willmott's", now named Snake, and "Willmott-Strachan Chimney" - guess which that one was?)

There's a long history of accidental and deliberate re-naming at Squamish, starting perhaps with Fred's 1959 attempt to rename the Chief "Goose Rock". No one knows why. Some other notable examples:

Artificial Land: Inadvertently renamed Sentry Box sometime between the 1962 Baldwin guide, and the 1967 Woodsworth guide.

South Arete: The original name for Squamish Buttress, now the name for a route that wasn't part of the original buttress route.

North Arete: The local name for it, but Fred insisted it be called Angel's Crest. As it was his route, his call. A bit of poetry, from Fred.

Cacodemon Crack: The first half of what Fred later called Unfinished Symphony.

Bastille: Renamed Rock On, for a route that covers much of the same ground, plus at the top intersects with an unrecorded route named Pioneer, plus the original line of Squamish Buttress. I don't know if the Rock On party knew their first pitches were on Bastille/Basteal.

University Wall: It made sense that the FFA party kept the name, although they did two significant variations (<10% of the total). A significant, well-established route. But when they returned and freed the original line, and renamed those two pitches only (#2 and #5), it just confused me. (Probably no one has ever freed the entire original line of U Wall.)

Black Bug's Blood: It probably wasn't climbed much, but was an established route. The so-called "One Scoop" route uses 75% or more the same line, plus added a large number of bolts. Without any mention of the history.

Freeway: Notably, Dean and Randy didn't purport to rename this, when they cleaned it up and completely freed it ten years after the FA. Neither did those who freed Cannabis Wall a few years ago rename it. Genius Loci is an exception, in that most of the route is independent of Ten Years After.

The list of "renamed" routes is now quite long, even allowing that some are largely new routes, use and tidy up part of an existing one, then give the whole thing a new name. Particularly on the Apron, the Papoose, and other lower-angle bits. Modern equipment and techniques allow climbers to "see" routes that may not have been feasible in the past. You end up with a patchwork grid.

There may be a place for some renaming of routes, but IMHO much less than some have attempted.

Speaking of which, Jeff and Hamish Thomson, Tami, and I recently did a new indirect start to Slab Alley. We didn't "rename" Slab Alley - that would be beyond rude, even with all the work I put into restoring that climb. And that's what I'd like to suggest - if you must, just restore existing routes, maybe with variations. (Our guidebooks now even give credit for same.) Enough of this renaming nonsense. We're thinking of naming the new variation "Due Diligence - FTG".

As for the left side of Yosemite Pinnacle, even I got up it (sort of) without the chicken bolt. Why in the world would anyone add bolts to Clean Corner? Enough of this "plaisir" climbing crap. A short, steep slippery slope, often promoted by those with motives other than protecting the experience of climbing.

Sep 5, 2013 - 01:34am PT
Anders, so good to have you back at the campfire; most pleased to have proof positive that the reports you were just resting were spot on. I'm with you on banishing this renaming thing, lets fire up the birdwalk bandwagon and get with the times rather than tilting at the Moody Blues windmill.
yours in revisionism

Social climber
Sep 5, 2013 - 01:43am PT
I'm with you on banishing this renaming thing, lets fire up the birdwalk bandwagon and get with the times rather than tilting at the Moody Blues windmill.
yours in revisionism


Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 5, 2013 - 01:47am PT
lets fire up the birdwalk bandwagon and get with the times rather than tilting at the Moody Blues windmill.

I had a class in college where we analyzed stuff like that to figure out what it really meant but that was a long time ago.

Mountain climber
Sep 5, 2013 - 02:11am PT
Artificial Land: Inadvertently renamed Sentry Box sometime between the 1962 Baldwin guide, and the 1967 Woodsworth guide.

Don't look at me! I'm not responsible for that renaming!

I saw no reason to rename Crap Crags (Europa, I think). Why Europa??? What was wrong with Crap Crags???


Social climber
Sep 5, 2013 - 02:19am PT
I have been pondering this renaming conundrum.......and have come up with 2 suggestions:

1. Anyone who does a new route in the alpine is then entitled to rename the WHOLE MOUNTAIN, at least until the next new route is established.

2. It's time to rename Squamish. There are already 2 possible choices, Squish and Squampton. Any other ideas?
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