climbingcook
Trad climber
sf
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Jun 20, 2012 - 08:29am PT
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Should we lower the rim on a basketball court so that everyone can dunk?
Part of what is missing in today's modern climber is the willingness to take the time to work up to things, improve one's skill physically and, more importantly, a solid mental focus.
Perhaps it's a symptom of our instant gratification society, wanting everything NOW!
My position remains the same on this, and any other Tuolumne testpiece. Leave it as exaclty that......a test.
By what bizarre logic do you come to the conclusion that someone soloing 5.7 terrain has "worked up to it"? Either the climbing is cruiser for them or they are in over their head. I'd argue that at this point there are far more climbers who want to spend a nice day climbing in a beautiful place than there are people looking to prove themselves on a low angle dome.
Personally, I couldn't possibly care less about hiking a 5.7 slab, well bolted or not. I think it's ridiculous to use laziness on the part of the FA team to justify a beginner-level route being poorly protected so that the very people who would find it engaging to climb are unable to attempt it.
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Jun 20, 2012 - 08:32am PT
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My position remains the same on this, and any other Tuolumne testpiece. Leave it as exaclty that......a test.
But isn't that the point - it isn't a test piece.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jun 20, 2012 - 08:43am PT
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My position remains the same too. There shouldn't be much of any 5.7X that's in a guidebook. It's an ego trip for those that have done it IMO.
I have done plenty of X in my life, but I try to avoid it in every situation possible now. NO ONE is advocating turning it into a sport clip job.
I've seen lots of 5.9 climbers come unglued on 5.7. RA might be able to sleep well if someone took a fatal plunge off of it, but I wouldn't if it were my route. It's not worth dying for.
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Jun 20, 2012 - 08:49am PT
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I'm quite glad I saw this thread. My guidebook - Reid/Falkenstein - just has that pitch down as 5.7.
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Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
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Jun 20, 2012 - 08:53am PT
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Add bolts
If you don't like the added bolts, don't clip into them
Problem solved
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jun 20, 2012 - 08:55am PT
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By what bizarre logic do you come to the conclusion that someone soloing 5.7 terrain has "worked up to it"?
Makes perfect sense to me. I've been climbing 5.7 for many years, but I have only been soloing 5.7 for a much shorter time. It's a different process to 'work up to' than just pure difficulty.
Just because you can lead 5.7 comfortably does not mean you are ready to solo it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 20, 2012 - 09:00am PT
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it seems the majority of climbers who climb this do not do the upper pitches...
there are some that do
why not leave it at that?
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Chris Brent
Sport climber
San Francisco
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Jun 20, 2012 - 09:26am PT
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How did the term "test piece", when referring to a free climbing grade, come to mean, "You fall, you die or get really hurt"? Isn't "test piece" supposed to be about a climb being the representative climb at a grade in a given area. What if someone FA's the prefect 5.9 "test piece" but makes it a well bolted line? Should we pull bolts so it's R+ or X just so we can stroke our egos on us completing the "test piece".
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Cragman
Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
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Jun 20, 2012 - 09:29am PT
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it isn't a test piece.
I could not disagree more. If you do not think this is a testpiece for the mind.....you have obviously not climbed the route.
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Jun 20, 2012 - 09:40am PT
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you have obviously not climbed the route.
You're absolutely right. Clearly Rick A - who has climbed it - questions his actions though, or this thread wouldn't exist.
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Cragman
Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
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Jun 20, 2012 - 09:46am PT
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Rick did not put bolts in on the FA because he did not feel the need....the style of the day. It is EXACTLY that fact that makes this a testpiece......can you climb the route in the style of the day?
If not, stay off it.
Very simple.
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Jun 20, 2012 - 09:51am PT
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There's really no need to get angry here. I will stay off it. I was trying to contribute.
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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Jun 20, 2012 - 09:53am PT
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From the FA's OP
SC is not a test piece like the Bachar Yarian or Southern Belle.
I started climbing two years ago (in the Meadows too), on my third trip (5-6th day of climbing) I got to TR the crack on Super Chicken. I had only one fall despite not knowing how to hand jam yet.
This pitch is on my ticklist this summer as a lead. I think I would feel comfortable leading this now, but would never think of getting on that second pitch. 3-4 bolts - maybe. Perusing the guidebooks for climbs to do this season and what gives me pause are pitches like the top out on South Crack, due to lack of bolts. I do like to have something to aspire to and something that will test me mentally more than physically. I love the traditional ethic of Tuolumne and how badass those FAs were.
However, 0 bolts is plainly a solo. The FA didn't feel he needed any, but now questions that decision when he no longer climbs as hard. A 5.7 pitch for 5.11+ climbers. It wouldn't be the end of the world if bolts were added. It also wouldn't be the end if none ever were.
Despite all our posturing, its still up to the FA's decision.
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Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
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Jun 20, 2012 - 09:59am PT
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When you are doing a FA, you often can't stop to put in a Bolt
Have you ever tried to put in several bolts on a pitch, Your arm can't take the punishment, nor your feet, standing on dimes for hours on end
You have to run it out, just to make it to the top alive!
You should just fix it in secret the same week as the FA, then there wouldn't be all this talk about added bolts
But if you don't, like most routes that have runouts for the same reason, you think back on it when you get old and wise, you then you want to go back and fix it
Like Ricky wants to do
and it turns into some Great Debate about Added Bolts ruining the Route.
Lame IMO
I would fix alot of FA's I did, if I had the energy
Go Ricky
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iep
climber
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Jun 20, 2012 - 10:03am PT
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Super Chicken, Super Pin, sketchy knobclimbing, old guys rekindling old ethical fires-- coincidence?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 20, 2012 - 10:15am PT
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young guys become old guys, with a little luck...
style debates might not seem very relevant... but taken as a true debate, they help to review history, intention and temperament, and lead to acceptable solutions to community issues
the FA/FFA team are a part of that community, the community has grown, expanded and diversified over time and some of these debates are worth engaging in
there was a thread (I'll try to find it later) about when the FA/FFA "rights" end and the community becomes the determining factor in route modification, obviously routes pass into "public domain" at some point, popular routes do this earlier than obscure routes, most people don't have a strong opinion about Super Chicken because they haven't done it
as some point, the community opinion may outweigh the FA/FFA team opinion
my feeling is that we leave it as it is.
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Cragman
Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
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Jun 20, 2012 - 10:17am PT
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jaaan, for the record...no anger from me whatsoever. I appreciate the opinions opined here.
I certainly have mine.
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Cragman
Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
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Jun 20, 2012 - 10:29am PT
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I refer to my first two posts on this thread....
I just returned from the Valley a few hours ago with Flanders. As we were heading out, passing below the Captain, I commented about the spirit of the Valley, that I know ALL of us feel.
I mentioned (and Doug agreed) that one of the privildges of climbing there is to know the history, and be able to pass over the same stone that the giants of our sport had done all those years ago, on FA'S.
In talking with many of today's generation of climbers, I am amazed at how few of them have any clue as to the history of the routes and styles many of us have grown to hold dear. If these youngs guns are not willing to read about it, the only way they will experience a glimpse of what we grew up with, is to climb those lines the way they were put up in the first place.
The flavor of routes in the Valley and the Meadows is, IMHO, what makes these places precious. Climbing in the bootprints of those we revere allows us to honor them all the more, and, perhaps, get a glimpse into the pulse and adrenaline flow that might have been coursing through them all those years ago.
For us, and for the history of our great sport, please let these classics stand for all time.......in their original form.
....and....
What makes a climber accomplished is good decision making. The mindset of 'go or no-go'.
There are climbs out there that are NOT for everyone. To bolt climbs so that EVERY climber out there can get on it, is to re-write Shakespeare so that EVERYONE can understand it.
Leaving these routes as they were put up should give climbers whose skills are not ready for it a goal to shoot for, and work up to. I recall hiking to the base of The Vampire MANY times in the 70's, only to realize that my skills needed work before launching. When I finally did the route in 79, I had the mindset and skills in place, and fired the thing.
And this discussion isn't just about Super Chicken. It's about a precedent that could be ushered in that goes against everything that Tuolumne is about. There are PLENTY of routes in the Meadows that can keep you occupied for a lifetime, without the risks that are inherent on Super Chicken. Play on those, and work your way up to the skills of the mind required on the 3rd pitch of SC. Or not. It may just be that this route.....is not for you. And you know what? That's ok. The world will still turn, the sun will still rise.
It's only a climbing route. Life will go on for you.
Just make good decisions. It has been said: "There are old climbers, and there are bold climbers, but there are very few old, bold climbers."
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 20, 2012 - 11:01am PT
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I still think the 'rule' that the FA decides the nature of the route is the baseline and a good one at that.
I think there is a little controversy in Tuolumne due to the era in which many of the climbs were put up. You have some of the best climbers in the world, honed in Yosemite Valley, putting up routes on moderate lines with cruxes below their ability so there are more run out climbs than in many other places. It's part of what makes Tuolumne climbing special, but it also means there are a higher percentage of routes that appeal to a limited number of climbers.
From the 1992 Falcon guide I have about:
26 climbs no rating
1 G rated
33 PG
17 PG/R
37 R
6 R/X
8 X
There are a limited number of climbs. And there are lots of climbers. So you do see crowds on popular, well protected climbs, and few ascents on many run out climbs.
Again I go back to the FA prerogative rule. If it was my FA I would probably add a few bolts:
*I think there are plenty of run out climbs in Tuolumne and not enough well protected moderates
*I would want to maximize the star rating for the climb
*I would want the last pitch to follow the character of the rest of the climb. I think run outs should typically occur on terrain about 3 or 4 number grades lower than the crux, so for example a 5.9 climb has 5.6 runouts
However:
*Shagedelic is nearby and it's similar and has more protection
*As mentioned Tuolumne's history is run out climbs
*You lose that challenge for people that want that testpiece
I think an argument can be made either way, but it's Rick's decision and I'm happy he thought it through and asked for input.
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Todd Townsend
Social climber
Bishop, CA
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Jun 20, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
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There's been a lot of debate about keeping the route within the character of the meadows. Here's an honest question: How many routes in Tuolumne have entire pitches with absolutely no pro at only 2 grades below the crux pitch?
Having recently climbed South Crack I'd agree that it's an all time classic, in part because of the runout 4th pitch. How classic would it be if that pitch wasn't relatively short (90 ft) and didn't have pro halfway through? Would it still be as great a climb if the majority of climbers rapped off at the end of the crack?
(edited for spelling and clarity)
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