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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 3, 2006 - 12:14pm PT
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For shorter buildings, one can time the fall of the cat.
The height is then calculated from the formula:
 height = 4.9 meters * t^2,
where t is measured in seconds.
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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one could also use a long measuring tape from the top, using the cat as ballast to get the tape down to the ground. Don't forget to add the height of the cat.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Well, you calculations maybe off if the cat died of bird flu. How long is cat's gut? Maybe measure height in guts...
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2006 - 12:34pm PT
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Good Janet. That is why the first answer only works for relatively short buildings (or in low wind conditions). For taller buildings it may be useful to attach the cat to a weight lifting plate or a bowling ball.
Of course, it really does not matter what sound it makes hitting the ground using this particular technique.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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If the cat has been run over by a car, you could assume that the cat measures, from tip of tail, to head approximately 31". Stacking them tip to tip, (and this is easy given their stiffness) you could estimate of the height of any building.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2006 - 12:39pm PT
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Crimper - that is good, or just measure the building in units of flat cats.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Hold the cat by the end of the tail at sufficient distance from the building where the body of the cat can be visually superimposed over the full height of the building. Measure distance from building to cat, measure cat, measure length of arm, calculate angle from eyes to cat nose and tail, and extrapolate height of building...
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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After reading Healy's suggestion, I feel really inadequate. That is simply brilliant!
By the way, I wanted to mention that one can use cats to determine the volume of any room in a building. For example, on average a cat equals 1.2 sf, (we can refer to this unit of measure as a "cat"), then my office has a volume of exactly 1,820 cats.
Cool.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2006 - 12:46pm PT
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healyje, you can do it simpler. Hint - You do not need to measure the angle. :-)
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2006 - 12:47pm PT
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Janet, surely you have an answer to that problem.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Trad, in math I am an drooling idiot...
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2006 - 12:56pm PT
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healyje, you can only get partial credit with that answer. But collaborating with colleagues is permissible. :)
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Janet:
I concede that your method of measuring volume appears more efficient. I will continue toiling away to develop a better measurement strategy....
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ThomasKeefer
Trad climber
Monterey, CA
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You can put a mirror on the ground at a fixed distance from the building and then walk toward the mirror and the building until you see the top of the building. Once you you see the top, drop the dead cat on the ground as a marker. Measure your height (only to your eyes- this is why you need the cats- your normal height wont work) using any one of the 'dead cat' measuring tips above, the distance between the mirror and building and the distance between the dead cat and the mirror. You can then, using geometry (think SOCAHTOA) figure the agle your eyes make with the mirror. Using Snells law (incidence angle = refracted angle if there is a homogenous medium) you can very accurately determine the height of the building. The only down side to this is that it could require two dead cats-one to mark and one to measure.. . but it would be the most accurate in that it relies only on pure science without requirements for simplifactions to account for friction..
BTW.. you would want to Skin the Cat before any sort of drop tests or measurements since the fur would surely induce errors.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I like that one...
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2006 - 02:28pm PT
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Nice TK, That works very nicely. Clearly you could probably finish healy's solution as well.
The volume problem is an interesting variation, that I have not yet had time to really think about.
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G_Gnome
Gym climber
The Big City
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If measuring volume, make sure to leave the skin on the tail, as skinned cat tail is awfully slippery.
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ThomasKeefer
Trad climber
Monterey, CA
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The volume is not an easy one.. I would say impossible... for a number of reasons.
First, there is "compaction of dead cats"(tm) wherby you have dissimilar contributions from what once were equi-volumous cats.
Second, you need to have equi-volumous cats to start off-width.
I would say that if you are into measuring room volumes... you should head to PB in san diego and round up about a hundred (scale +/- for a wag at the actual volume) of those plastic chicks that walk around. Hint.. tell them that there is a people magazine photo shoot at your place of interest. dunk one of these girls into a medium sized graduated cyllindar (hint- you will need extra ballast to offset the bouyance of fake tits for complete submersion). Measure off the volume change on the cyllinder. You know have the volume of the average chick. A good assumption based on my field research is that there is very little variance on their dimensions so just start stuffing them in the room...
count them as they go in (hint: do this yourself as you won't want a PB chick doing any counting)
Now have a ST party and celebrate with Wine, Beer and zima(for the dummies).
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2006 - 03:24pm PT
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Rajmit, that would only work like in healy's example if you were able to measure the angle. And unlike healy's example, you would need to account for a catenary shape sag. Try to figure out how to do it without the need for measuring the angle.
BTW. We are starting to run out of cats.
Perhaps we should be restricting ourselves to single cat solutions. :-)
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2006 - 03:27pm PT
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tofu, strictly whether he could use less than half depends on the angle. If he measured if from very close to the base, he would hardly save any cats at all.
Also folks, in the feline spirit, let's not leave out the details. Just don't say use geometry. Note that original solution to get you thinking did not just say use the well known formula for distances versus time for falling objects on earth.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2006 - 03:41pm PT
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A volume solution.
Take a cylinder filled with water and place it over a catch basin. Gently push the dead cat into the cylinder until it is just completely submerged. Remove the cylinder and empty out the cat and the remaining water in the cylinder.
Now pour the water in the catch basin back into the cylinder. Mark the level of the cylinder using a pencil if you have one or use the cat's blood.
Close the room up tight. From the floor above, drill a hole through the floor into the room. Now fill the cylinder to the line. Pour the water into the room. You can enlist the assistance of Hooter's girls in refilling the cylinder if you like. Count the number of cylinders of water until no more water will go down the hole.
You now know the volume of the room in cats, and may proceed to Hooter's to celebrate in an appropriate fashion.
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Don't let go
Trad climber
Yorba Linda, CA
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I think there should be pictures posted to help futher explain all of these ideas...
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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This will take thousands of live cats.
Choose a number of buildings where the height is already known. Start by dropping 100 cats from the 30' building, then drop 100 cats from the 40' building, the 50', the 60' and so on to a 1000' (or more). For each set of drops count the number of cats which perish instantly, the number that take minutes or hours, those that limp away, those that survive unscathed, etc. Make sure that for each set of drops the impact zone is similar, and wait until wind and other atmospheric conditions are similar to those for other drops, and make sure that all the cats weigh approximately the same, and that all cats have been shaved of their fur (or you can singe it off also). Consistency is the key.
Now that you have your data set, you should go to the building of unknown height with another set of 100 cats. Hurl them from the top just as you did before, and again count the number of cats that survive and the various degrees of maiming that occur. Match this data with the data from a building of known height for your answer.
The overall accuracy of your results will be further enhanced if you use 1000 cats per drop set, and if you drop at one foot instead of 10' increments.
edit--
Ron's point doesn't harm the validity of this technique. Cat Mortality/Altitude when graphed will form a Bell Curve; high mortality at low and very high altitudes and lower mortality rates at middling altitudes. The only problem, not a big one, is figuring which side of the Bell Curve the cat falls on, so to speak.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Janet,
no good.
Actual studies have shown that cat injury is more likely from the second or third floor than the tenth. I know this is counter-intuitive but actually if the cat has time to "right" itself it can often walk (limp) away! No bull!
It will be neccesary to induce feline morbidity (Like that one?) first before dropping it from a building. But why bother going up there? You can throw a dead cat OVER a building.
How? You ask.
Why, with a CATapult. Ofcourse!
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Piton Ron:
Janet's method can work as long and you tie all their legs together before the fall. Even if they right themselves, the outcome will look like a Rorschach Inkblot.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Hilarious!
Better inkblot;
cut off the feet, butter its ass, and fire it AT the building with the catapult.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Be sure to tape large piece of white paper on the wall first however. After the hit, fold it in half, and voila - a new inkblot.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Angle of Repose™™™™ Method
1 building of indeterminant height
1 dumptruck
1 geometry textbook
numerous dead cats (offsets useful)
Measure volume of a dead cat as per above.
In building parking lot deposit one (1) dumptruck load containing known number of dead cats. Measure height, circumference, angle of repose™, etc. Mark it down in notebook with nerd mechanical pencil. Test wind direction. Perhaps pet cats out of sympathy. Deposit second dumptruck load of cats on first pile. Measure again. Repeat. Make big ass pile. Additional pile of cats may be needed to maneuver dumptruck close to original pile of cats.
Now...I don't remember 10th grade so hot but I remember something with the volume of a conical shape and crap like that. By comparing number of cats in pile, diameter of pile, volume of cats, volume of pile, outside angle of cone, i.e. angle of repose™ and sun spot activity, you will arrive at number of dead cats required per vertical foot of cone height.
Remove pile of dead cats.
Re-pile dead cats outside building of indeterminant height.
Count dead cats in pile.
Plug in various numbers everywhere in formula.
Taa-daaa!!!!
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2006 - 08:26pm PT
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Well some of these are silly, but even the silly ones should have a calculation. The point after all is to determine the height of the building.
Interestingly enough, one of the simplest solutions, which requires only one cat, has not even been mentioned. And the best thing is it does not require any kind of stopwatches, etc.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Oh, only one cat! No stopwatches!
Dude, maybe you should've told us this earlier? What am I supposed to do with all these cats now?
The Rope Swing™ Method requires only a rope, a cat, and a tree taller than the building of indeterminant height. Proceed to roof. Tie cat to rope. Drop. Yell "Weeeeeee!" because the cat probably won't. Measure high point on other side of swing (oh yeah, you need a helper and a long ruler). Close enough.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2006 - 08:35pm PT
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yo - be as clever or elegant as you like, but you must show all work. You must get an answer...
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2006 - 08:43pm PT
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Janet, well done! I was thinking that you mount it and offer it as a gift in the building department. But using the cat as currency is excellent.
You get an A.
But it is not the elegant solution that I was just mentioning.
And interestingly yo's approach has great potential.
Perhaps you can get WoodyS to send you a cat as a prize.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2006 - 08:44pm PT
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Rajmit, you can define a unit of measurement. So a "cat" would be fine.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Take one cat and start stretching veeeeeeeerrrrrrrryyyy slowly. Don't rush or you'll break him in two. With great patience and skill, the cat will stretch into a very long and skinny cat. And eventually, he'll be as long as any building is tall. At that point, put the cat-ribbon on the ground and use a tape measure or other device to figure it out.
Please send prize money to St. Louis.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2006 - 08:53pm PT
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Rajmit, you might want to send that in to Google. I tried "1 cat in dogs" and "1 cat in acorns". Neither worked.
You know that you can google "2 meters in ft" right?
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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"ft in 1 cat" = 4
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2006 - 09:06pm PT
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Nice!
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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What if a weather front blows through as you are walking up the stairs?
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2006 - 09:14pm PT
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If the front blows through, just hold your skirt down!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Janet,
why would an architect give you anything for finding a headless cat in his bed (unless he's a Vietnamese architect who eats pussy)?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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What? Dogs don't have 'em?
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thedogfather
Trad climber
Midwest
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Here is one Cat unit of measure
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I know. Just having fun. Actually just watched it after "Al Neri" died last month.
What was the name of the $600,000 stallion that never got put to stud?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Holy crap!
A dog really WAS the father.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2006 - 10:12pm PT
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OK. yo was so close to a really fine answer it is killing me. But I do not want to steal a good answer that somebody might still be working on.
So here is a hint. It involves a dead cat, long string, a scale for weighing the cat and a stop watch. But nothing with which to measure the string. (No measuring the string in catlengths.)
There is also another method involving just a single cat and some toothpicks. But there are times when it is more accurate than others.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Actually the woman holding it is 26" tall.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Raj,
you don't know diddley about "matured".
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Janet,
that bit with Khartoum's head was brilliance on Puzo's part. You're never told how it was done which makes it twice as terrifying.
My favorite bit from Puzo was the line, "I've got a stone in my shoe."
Wasn't used in the films until #3, but then used twice.
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ThomasKeefer
Trad climber
Monterey, CA
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Trad..
-Your method.. wether you are using a focalt pendulum solution or something similar will require a stop watch.. that is a useless piece of gear that can only induce problems.
-The angle of repose method is no good since you need to know what the angle of repose for a pile of cats is. The angle of repose is when the normal force vector due to gravity exceeds the cohesive force of the cats (essentially the "friction" between them). Please note that this is not actually friction
-To use my method.. if you have a dead cat then you are likely a chick so you must have a pocket mirror of some sort...
Since you want the specifics of how to do this, I will provide them. Walk, with the building at your back, approximately 50ft away. The further you walk, the more space you will need but the more accurate your results will be due to minimizing you for and aft movement from straight vertical when you are standing there. Bend over, with the building still at your back and the dead cat still in your other hand, and place the mirror on the ground. Do a turn about and be facing the building with the mirror at your feet. Keep walking backwards and watching all the pretty clouds in the mirror and eventually you will see the top of the building. STOP, and drop the dead cat. Now, if you know the length of the cat, roll it end over end to the mirror and multiply the number of turns by the length of the cat. Use the cat to then, by rolling it up your body, measure the distance to your eye level. Divide your height of eye by the distance from the mark to the mirror.. remember this number. At this point your have the tangent of the angle your eye made with the mirror (the angle of reflection) but that actual angle is of no consequence since Snell's law tells you that incidence and reflection are the same. No measure, via the rolling cat trick, the distance from the mirror to the base of the building.. Multiply that distance by the number you memorized and walla, you have the height of the building.
If you have live cats and wish to throw them off the building, you can use a doppler analysis of the change in pitch of the whale of their voice as they zoom by and extrapolate the distance fallen that way.. That is how the cops used to get you with the old shcool radar guns.
-Whatever you do, dont use the technique for measurement that Moyner and Fiedelman used in their sierra classics book since you will likely be off by an order of magnitude.
-If you think you have a better method.. does it rely on simplification or assumption that is only valid in the ideal vaccum case?
TOm
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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Fewer cats may make a more elegant solution to building height, but this is the felinal solution.
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WoodyS
Trad climber
Riverside
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I found the Siamese reading this thread, so I'm afraid it's too late. They've already left the house and are on their way. I wish I could have stopped them; I'm sorry; I didn't want this sort of thing to happen.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2006 - 06:17am PT
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Tom, Your mirror solution is one of the best. The only assumption required was level ground. There was no need to explain further, though adding the source of the mirror was a nice touch.
Janet, apparently your prize is on its way. And the "no stopwatch involved" is for the method that requires only a single cat and toothpicks. This one would be ideal for you since it involves teeth and no physics.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2006 - 08:36am PT
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Janet, Glad your prize made it. BTW. Only two toothpicks are necessary. Maybe even only one. So we do not need to stick thousands of toothpicks in the cat and carry them up the stairs measuring the height of the building in toothpicks.
BTW. Since you're a dental professional, I suspect you already know in which US state the toothbrush was invented.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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See, there is ONE advantage of living in St. Louis - an angry mob Siamese won't come HERE - even to exact revenge. But my doors are locked, just in case.
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thedogfather
Trad climber
Midwest
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radical
You win, hands down. Only suggestion would be to use cloning so you could get exact copies and then just find the exact time it takes for a kitten to reach six inches. Once you have that info you shouldn't have to measure each one, just know the date each litter reaches "maturity".
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Ah! I have hit on a simple solution. Take one cat to top of building. Strap GPS device on back of cat. Turn on function to record elevation and change in elevation. Hold cat over edge. Drop cat. SPLAT. Trot down the stairs, and voila, the exact height of the building will be on the read out. That and additional bonus information like time, temperature, and lat and longitude of the location of the building.
Magnificent.
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ThomasKeefer
Trad climber
Monterey, CA
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Gps.. Good idea.. but then you will likely lose the sattelite cluster (or part of it) by being in the shadow of the building. You would need 4 sattelits and that will be hard..
Good try though...
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Damn. I forgot about the signal issue.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2006 - 11:51am PT
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Crimper, The GPS should show altitude. So you would need the difference between the reading at the top and the reading at the bottom (if the display is still working).
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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I'm concerned. This sounds like it could escalate into some "Domesticated Violence"
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2006 - 02:41pm PT
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Janet - Nope, not Mass.
West Virginia - any other state and it would have been call a teethbrush.
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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There has been a disturbing development.
Lately, I've been testing my 100 Cat Droppings Method™. I discovered that some of the cats who survived must have begun working on something truly horrifying: a weapon of mass destruction. They have put together parts of dead dropped cats to create an Un-Dead Cat™ to seek revenge for all building drops, shelter gassings, and . . .
(cue music signifying impending doom)
. . . roadkills!
But it doesn't end there!
It seems that another cell of cat terrorists has been training a legion of Ninja Cats™ . . .
. . . we'll see how this turns out, because we all know how hard it is to train a cat to do anything. But these Ninja Cats™ apparently have it in for anything or anyone with Pirate tendencies.
I think the only safe thing is to surround yourself with water. I've signed up to go to sea on a pirate barque. Arr.
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thedogfather
Trad climber
Midwest
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Be especially careful when in your closet since ninja cats are masters at hiding there.
And don't make fun of them because their very stare can kill.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2006 - 04:12pm PT
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loom - you are overreacting. cat's do not join up in groups. Have you ever tried herding cats? Even Mac's dogs can't or won't do it.
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bones
Trad climber
San Diego
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You guys have it all wrong. These methods involve catching, killing, and carrying dead cats to the roof of a building. Easier to just lure a dog to the roof with a bisquit and then pretend to throw the bisquit off the roof. Dog will fall for it every time.
Seriously though, 100 posts on a subject like this? ...wow. At least a few of you really are sick weirdos. Did your childhood cat catch you in the act of masterbating to your grandma's panties or something?
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2006 - 09:23pm PT
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Another cat lover puzzle has been posted here.
At this point, I can't tell whether everyone has given up on finding the truly simple elegant solution to the building height problem. Or whether they simply do not care anymore - in which case they will probably not post, or they would really like to see the answer.
So I will offer just a hint or two. The simplest solution that I can think of requires no physics, no math almost, and is so simple that a criminologist, nurse, dental assistant, or even an anthropologist could explain how it works.
Actually I am surprised that Juan did not chime in, but perhaps he is flying to Turkey.
Two toothpicks, one dead cat (live cat in a pinch, but make sure it is one that will not go home with you afterwards). No stopwatches, tape-measures, no barometers, or anemometers.
Optionally could include a bottle of wine, RWEYL (or other companion as preferred), cheese, crackers, blanket.
Playing crappy music might be too distracting though and cause observational failures.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2006 - 10:55am PT
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Don't come near me with those toothpicks. I am not dead!
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2006 - 06:14am PT
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Glad you survived. But do not go off on a tangent here. That would be a sure sine that you are looking for something too complicated. Knowledge of trigonometry or astrology is not required. Just a couple of toothpicks and a single dead cat.
It is reasonable to assume that the building is south of the arctic circle, and north of the other circle, so you will not need to skin the cat for warmth.
BTW. I do not know if you saw this one:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=161712&f=35&b=0
Having a HS knowledge of physics might help, but any math is simple enough that you can look it up using google. The clock is ticking on that problem. If it falls off the second page, I will assume that everyone is completely stumped or does not care and just post the solution. Hint, thinking about a grandfather might help, but grandmother probably would not get you anywhere.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2006 - 07:36am PT
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I had intended that clue for the weight of the dead cat thread. Though I suppose you could use it for this one. But it is not related to the two toothpick building height solution.
The solution does exist. Just nobody has posted it.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2006 - 07:40am PT
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Janet - I think you have a dirty mind. Are you saying Grandmotherly female anatomy would not be gruesome?
radical - you can save your answers in the form of a question for jeopardy. :)
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2006 - 05:51pm PT
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You live near Lake Erie, right? Are erie cats unusual. Just kiddin'. Have fun with the toothpicks.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2006 - 06:16pm PT
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Must get pretty eerie up there in the winter, what with so little sunlight, lake effect, and all.
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Dru
climber
HELL, BABY, HELL!
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measure shadow of building with toothpicks
measure shadow of dead cat with toothpicks
measure length of dead cat with toothpicks
ratio of building shadow to cat shadow is same as ratio of building to cat.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2006 - 06:23pm PT
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It is possible to use the cat for the measurement. It is also possible not to have to do any math (other than counting), i.e. no ratios.
But Dru has the idea! And the nice thing, unlike the mirror approach from earlier, is that it does not require level ground.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2006 - 06:51pm PT
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LOL. That was good! So are you going to be able to improve on Dru's solution? No ratios.
And what about determining a cat's weight? You are so creative, I thought you would have had an answer there.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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TIG states "And the nice thing, unlike the mirror approach from earlier, is that it does not require level ground."
However, it only appears to require one dead cat.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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My lord! These Canadians really don't like cats!
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2006 - 05:52am PT
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Janet, I like your style.
No, I said before no trig. Dru used similar triangles from geometry. If you do not remember that, you could use wikipedia to find out why it is important.
Sundials take advantage of the fact that a fixed object will project a shadow, whose orientation, and usually size, will change through the course of the day.
Of course, if one is north or south of the corresponding polar circles, there are times during the year when there will be no sunlight during the day.
So Dru's solution allows one to take advantage of similar triangles, a large one and a small similar one, and use the fact that the ratios of one pair of sides is the same as the ratio of a corresponding pair. He measured 3 directly and obtains the fourth using a ratio.
Now if one is clever, the use of the ratio can be eliminated (on a nice sunny day). And this is where the two toothpicks are used. ;)
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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I can't take another sleepless night, tossing and turning, wondering - What is this solution???
Post up!
I'll send a beer as a form of bribery!
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2006 - 07:52am PT
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Measuring building height with dead cat, and toothpicks - least mathematical solution
Bribery works!
This little calculator may be helpful and save you some time You can use it to find out what time the "solar altitude" will be 45 degrees. That is, the time that the sun will be 45 degrees above the horizon.
If it never gets that high, you can wait until later in the summer. Or you can modify this method slightly.
So on a predicted sunny day, take your cat and toothpicks out to an area near the building. Ideally you should be somewhere near the shadow of the top of the building.
Poke a toothpick (1) in the ground. Lay out the cat horizontally with its head at (1) and pointed in the same direction as you expect the shadow to be when the sun hits 45 degrees. Put toothpick (2) at the cat's full extension. The distance from (1) to (2) should now be exactly one international cat unit (ICU).
Now carefully prop the cat up vertically, at position (1). Frozen cats or stiff cats will be easier to use. You may now take toothpick 1 out of the ground. Keep it handy. It will be ok to chew it a little, but you will need it later.
Patiently sit and wait for the shadow to reach toothpick (2). As soon as the shadow gets to toothpick (2), take the toothpick out of your mouth and run over and put toothpick (1) at the end of the building shadow. You may now retrieve the cat and the other toothpick. Take them over to the new position of toothpick (1).
Lay the cat out fully extended with one end at toothpick (1). Mark its full extension (perhaps with toothpick 2). Pick the cat up and lay it out again. Repeat this until you reach the building. The length of the shadow will be the length of the building in ICU.
Of course, today, anything north of about Philadelphia will not see the sun reach 45 degrees, so the shadow will always exceed the building height. In this case you could alter the method to wait until the shadow of the cat reaches 2 ICUs. Then the length of the building shadow will of course be twice the building height in ICUs.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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TIG says "It will be ok to chew it a little, but you will need it later."
Which part of the cat do you think is best to chew on?
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2006 - 08:04am PT
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There is another alternative...
If you can find someone to trade you a barometer for your cat - you might have to throw in a few toothpicks to get a good barometer...
With your new barometer, the problem of measuring a building height is well known.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2006 - 08:06am PT
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Crimpie, hopefully after you are rested, you will read the solution more carefully. You chew on the toothpick, not the cat.
Be sure not to run with either in your mouth.
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Prefer long-haired cats (e.g. Persian) for this method...
1) shave cat
2) create long thin yarn from cat hair
3) attach weight sufficient to deter wind swinging but not enough to break thread
4) lower weight with cat-hair yarn over side, then measure length of yarn required for weight to reach the ground.
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Assuming you have a live cat:
1) Record the sound of the cat in a terrified state to attain a baseline frequency measurement.
2) On the second floor of the tall building, open a window and place a person with a sound recording device.
3) Directly above this window at the top of the building, drop the cat from a rest position (first cut claws off cat so it doesn't stick to the arm of the person doing the dropping)
4) Record the sound of the terrified cat passing this position, *and* with synchronized timestamps record the visual of the passing cat.
5) Use this information to measure the sound frequency drop (e.g. doppler effect) at several intervals immediately after the cat passes the level mark of the video camera.
6) This sound frequency shift can be used to calculate the velocity of the cat.
7) Assuming the live cat was shaved first (to reduce wind drag), one can make reasonable adjustments for friction and using 9.79 m/s^2 as gravity force (as measured in La Jolla, CA 15 years ago), determine the height the cat has fallen to the points at which velocity measurement was calculated.
8) Note that with several frequency readings, one can obtain several different (most likely increasing unless building is very tall) velocity readings and make several semi-independent measurements of building height to the points of measured velocity.
9) Still need a tape measure to know the height from ground to the measured points of velocity, unless you keep the sound/video recording until the splat sound arrives. Don't forget to account for time delay of splat sound reaching the audio recording device. You need to know the atmospheric pressure and humidity to account for these properly.
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bobby hill
Trad climber
Thrill Hill, Texas
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Oct 19, 2006 - 08:42am PT
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Good Morning!
drawing ala simon bond.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Oct 19, 2006 - 09:28am PT
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Now THAT is art!
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Oct 22, 2006 - 01:12am PT
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For this method, buildering up is optional, but attain the top of the building, and fix a rope. The measuring can be done either on rappel, or by ascending the line, but ascending with a trail line will be helpful. Tether your cat with a cord, to avoid dropping it, and fix a 5 gallon bucket filled with water to your harness. To make the measurement, dunk the dead cat in the water, and thwap it on the wall, leaving a mark that is one "cat" in height. (You can see how this would work to measure the building width as well, on tyrolean traverse). Ascend, making the thwap- marks end to end, rewetting the cat as needed. It is wise to knot a cord every 10 cats, to avoid losing count. The trail line is for refilling the bucket. Depending on the building height, it is good to carry a spare cat in case the first one deteriorates. Remember that the thwapping puts considerable strain on the shoulder, so train to strengthen the rotator cuff beforehand. In case of windy conditions, extra cats can be used as pro to prevent swinging (see ST thread on this subject).
GOOD LUCK
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screelover
Mountain climber
Ottawa, Canada
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Oct 22, 2006 - 03:21pm PT
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TIG, a brilliant solution. Can I eat the cat now? And do you have a recommendation for cookng it? I'm thinking maybe sauteed with a bit of garlic. Then eating it while sitting in the shade.
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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Oct 22, 2006 - 03:31pm PT
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I've always done it this way:
Extrude the cat through a narrow die at the top of the building, measuring with a roller measuring device until the cat extends to the ground.
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2006 - 08:16am PT
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Getting a catapult to the top of a building seems like a lot of effort.
(Certainly more effort than getting the opio posts off the front page.)
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apogee
climber
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:35am PT
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Captain...or Skully
Trad climber
North of the Owyhees
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Dec 31, 2008 - 07:28pm PT
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Haha......eyes upon ya.
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