What is "Mind?"

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allapah

climber
Jun 14, 2015 - 04:48pm PT
8 Easy Steps to an Understanding and Verification of Woo Phenomena

1. String Theory
2. Relativity
3. Bohm's Implicate Order
3. A brain makes predictions based on stored knowledge
4. Brain is sensitive to resonance with quantum minutia (through synapses)
5. Sheldrake's Formative Causation
6. Mind is a weak non-entropy
7. Mental process actuates below Heisenberg's limit (see 3)
8. Start with woo and work backwards

I still think climbers are the ones to solve this, due to their fringe-riding of death-attractor event horizons (but at a much slower, contemplative speed than surfers or proximity flyers, etc....)

Am I really the only one on this whole thread who has tried to spew Gregory Bateson into the sprayfest?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 14, 2015 - 04:50pm PT
But not the easiest thing to find.

Just paste the whole youtube url, delete the "http://" and the ".com" so you end up with "youtube=" and then the id code for the vid. Then put the whole thing in brackets [].

So it looks like this, without the spaces

[ youtube = 123xyz]
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 14, 2015 - 04:59pm PT
YEAH! i never saw that delete thing?!

THANKS
WBraun

climber
Jun 14, 2015 - 05:12pm PT
Power wash your mind and empty it of all your material attachments.

Then you'll fully understand the mind, intelligence, ego and soul.

Instead the foolish rascal scientists constantly fill their minds with material attachments and become more and more bondage/attached to the gross material plane.

Thus brainwashed and bonded to the material plane they fall into the limited destructive world of gross materialism thinking it is all there is.

Thus they tax selves by amassing huge quantities of relative and or hypothetical truths and thus ultimately remain completely bewildered.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jun 14, 2015 - 05:13pm PT
"Implicate order and explicate order are concepts coined by David Bohm to describe two different frameworks for understanding the same phenomenon or aspect of reality. He uses these notions to describe how the same phenomenon might look different, or might be characterized by different principal factors, in different contexts such as at different scales.

The implicate order, also referred to as the "enfolded" order, is seen as a deeper and more fundamental order of reality. In contrast, the explicate or "unfolded" order include the abstractions that humans normally perceive."
(Wiki)

JL brought this up before. Maybe it's the way to go.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 14, 2015 - 05:38pm PT
Since everyone seems to be posting TED talks in order to demonstrate proper video posting technique, here is my contribution:

[Click to View YouTube Video]


I simply copy everything to the right of the = (equal sign) on the YouTube url then paste it into the "you tube video ID " field on the ST video submit page.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jun 14, 2015 - 05:40pm PT
My favorite palate cleanser.

ENIGMAS

You've asked me what the lobster is weaving there with
his golden feet?
I reply, the ocean knows this.
You say, what is the ascidia waiting for in its transparent
bell? What is it waiting for?
I tell you it is waiting for time, like you.
You ask me whom the Macrocystis alga hugs in its arms?
Study, study it, at a certain hour, in a certain sea I know.
You question me about the wicked tusk of the narwhal,
and I reply by describing
how the sea unicorn with the harpoon in it dies.
You enquire about the kingfisher's feathers,
which tremble in the pure springs of the southern tides?
Or you've found in the cards a new question touching on
the crystal architecture
of the sea anemone, and you'll deal that to me now?
You want to understand the electric nature of the ocean
spines?
The armored stalactite that breaks as it walks?
The hook of the angler fish, the music stretched out
in the deep places like a thread in the water?

I want to tell you the ocean knows this, that life in its
jewel boxes
is endless as the sand, impossible to count, pure,
and among the blood-colored grapes time has made the
petal
hard and shiny, made the jellyfish full of light
and untied its knot, letting its musical threads fall
from a horn of plenty made of infinite mother-of-pearl.

I am nothing but the empty net which has gone on ahead
of human eyes, dead in those darknesses,
of fingers accustomed to the triangle, longitudes
on the timid globe of an orange.

I walked around as you do, investigating
the endless star,
and in my net, during the night, I woke up naked,
the only thing caught, a fish trapped inside the wind.

~Pablo Neruda
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Jun 14, 2015 - 06:36pm PT
Congratulations on your choice.


Some widely used palate cleansers are sorbet, bread, apple slices, and pickles.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 14, 2015 - 07:01pm PT
"enfolded" order, is seen as a deeper and more fundamental order of reality.

i guess the "order" that's talkin about, is the order that sez how a Atom should react accordingly to it's environment? Earth has an environment that allows air breathing organism's. Suffice it to say, the encoded order of our DNA doesn't work on Mars. The flavor to our "pre-mordial soup" tastes of every ingredient from; the earth's diameter spin ratio, to the distance away from the Sun(compared to it's retaliative power output) and its speed of orbit, to having a moon, etc. The cells in man can not operate without the precise environment the Earth has maintained for 4 Bil yrs.

There must have been an enfolded order to the Earth before it acquired an atmosphere, what else would put it in it's place?

Man know's it takes a special environment for his body to thrive. A special order.

So the pertinent question here is whether or not that order was understood before the BB, or was it invented here on Earth by chance?

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 14, 2015 - 07:25pm PT
JL brought this up before. Maybe it's the way to go

maybe.

but just like the human body and mind works specific to earth's environment, yet we can wear a "costume" to walk on the moon. Who's to say an organism from a complete different environment couldn't put on a costume and walk around here? And so why not a Spirit alien??


[Click to View YouTube Video]


Ward, that works perfect.Thanks!
WBraun

climber
Jun 14, 2015 - 09:49pm PT
Robots remain just that a dumb machine with no soul no matter how advance these materialistic fools make them.

You can kill any robot and never be charged for murder.

But kill a human being and the full wrath of the law will come down upon you for murder .....
Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, California
Jun 14, 2015 - 10:03pm PT
Remember....

"Do unto other robots as you would have other robots do unto you."

-from the Book of Gludgi;
Chapter 12, Verse 17
(After the 2nd Android War).
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jun 15, 2015 - 07:00am PT
If I were an AGI researcher I'd probably be bummed to have this cloud of doom and suspicion hanging indefinitely over my field of work.

Bostrom also gave a talk at google authors, avail at youtube.

I'd sure like to have the opportunity to see how things turned out for "the future of humanity" 100 yrs hence, 1000 yrs hence.
.....

Unbelievers (2013) is still avail at netflix. Watched it again over the weekend. I think I got more out of it this second time.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 15, 2015 - 12:31pm PT

this cloud of doom and suspicion

Obliviously this doesn't come from The Power seekers, or The Pleasure seekers. It comes from the intelligent foresight of thinkers who understand the evil ways of man.

Guns and the nuclear threat will soon go by the wayside. With the advent of suicide robots with an electronic shockwave that reduces brains to mush.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Jun 15, 2015 - 01:24pm PT
The difference between monkeys and apes. Please note that humans did not come from either modern monkeys or apes. Physically, All three of us are descended from a distant common ancestor.

Traits all Primates share in common (Prosimians, Old and New World Monkeys, Apes, and Humans)


-fingernails instead of claws
-opposable thumbs
-small noses and flat faces
-loose flexible lips
-eyes up front that see in color, 3-D and stereoscopic vision
-large brains for body size
-complex social life
-most have some kind of incest taboo


Monkeys
All of the above +
-walk on all fours like other mammals
-walk flat footed on top of tree limbs
-have tails
-have vocal communications that are specific to certain situations



Apes
All of the above +
-no tails
-arms longer than legs
-walk using three different methods unlike other mammals
--hang by their arms (brachiation)
--walk upright for short periods
--knuckle walk on their front legs with sloping backs because arms are so much longer than legs
-all have some kind of incest taboo
-all have vocal communications & ability to learn sign language
-some pass along tool making culture to the next generation through demonstration of techniques


Humans
-All of the above +
-legs are longer than arms
-habitually walk upright
-pelvis and shoulder size and structure are unique
-language fully developed & used to pass on culture from one generation to the next
-sophisticated tools
-all have some kind of incest taboo



High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jun 15, 2015 - 02:04pm PT
lol

wtf?


What happened to my Asian hotties looking for a good time?!!1

.....

That's the trouble with language and metaphor, ain't it? I mean if Adam and Even can be slanged out to mean earth and life (see modern "sophisticated theologian speak" Cardinal George Pell to Dawkins, Q&A, for eg) then our ancient common ancestors can certainly be slanged out to monkeys.

"Adam and Eve are terms – what do they mean: life and earth. It’s like every man. That’s a beautiful, sophisticated, mythological account. It’s not science but it’s there to tell us two or three things. First of all that God created the world and the universe. Secondly, that the key to the whole of universe, the really significant thing, are humans and, thirdly, it is a very sophisticated mythology to try to explain the evil and suffering in the world." -the Great Cardinal George Pell, lol!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Pell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD1QHO_AVZA


Hitchens: "Religion poisons everything."

HFCS: "It's Ovah for Jehovah"

LOL! George Pell COMPLETELY out of his depth talking about descent of modern man from neanderthals, etc. In above discussion w Dawkins. How could he continue? I'd be so embarrassed I'd leave head bowed. But that's just me, I guess.

Any day now we might here from the Pope that the Great God Jehovah (God of Moses and Abraham) is actually just metaphor (eventually slang) for the Great Mother Nature (Who like Aiwa of Pandora cares only for the balance of life and does NOT take sides, Avatar, lol!).

Also... that our Resurrection to come is just metaphor or slang for our starstuff reconstituted in other things. In this age of social media and worldly awareness, growing by leaps and bounds every year, would any "sophisticated" "science type" here be surprised? lol
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jun 15, 2015 - 02:38pm PT
Can monkey-mind see no-thing?

:>\
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jun 15, 2015 - 02:53pm PT
LOL! George Pell COMPLETELY out of his depth talking about descent of modern man from neanderthals, etc. In above discussion w Dawkins. How could he continue? I'd be so embarrassed I'd leave head bowed. But that's just me, I guess.

Likewise, you're equally out of your element discussing the notion of metaphor... perhaps a science thing... if you could just stop LOL!ing for a moment and really examine the issue you might see religious metaphor as a device that helps millions through the difficult experience of the "slings and arrows" of life from great to small. The morphine might not cure the cancer but it sure as hell helps with the pain... that, by the way, is a metaphor.

It isn't religion poisoning everything it's people... Hitchens for all his brilliance just didn't get this and it led him to his support of the Iraq war another disastrous error on his part.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2015 - 02:56pm PT
but as far as you are concerned, you cannot "know" that I know, we agree on behavior... but that has nothing to do with what is "actually happening."

You don't want to concede that your "theory" is any worse than a physical theory. Yet you have not provided anything to show that it does better than a physical, materialistic theory.


Theory about what? When I say, consciousness at bottom has no content, what do you think that means. Kindoly notice that you keep going back to some thing, idea, concept, theory, something, anything that we can quantify and "know." I can understand that you hold out the hope that sentience can be exactly represented in digital form, as a purly mechanical output. The hope for this belief rests in our ability to reverse engineer objective functioning back to sentience - classic reductionism - then once we understand the basic stuff or things that source sentince, we can build it from scratch and have a machine that can love and laugh and know itself. Except no amount of reverse engineering of objective functioniing can lead back to sentience because subjective self awareness is bnot the selfsame thing as objective functioning. That leaves you to try and reverse engineer sentience, from the top down. Except there is no top or bottom because there is no edges to it. If there is, Ed, kindly point them out, even in poetical language.

And again, when you talk about what is "actually happening" with self awareness, or sentience, your notion, I believe, is that what is "actual" is not sentience itself, but an underlying physical process that "creates" it. This forces you into a closed loop from which thre is no escape. You can't even look at sentience as it is, neat. Your mind simply has to return to the stuff or thing that sources it.

A wedge into this circle might be to ask yourself what you consider to be the difference between sentince and neuro-processing.r, what is the difference between objective and subjective. If yu can look at the objective sans the subjective, then you can look at the subjective, sans objective. What happens when you do (shut up and stop calculatinig?). This might break the materialist trance.

And BASE, the idea that I was cherry picking QM to somehow vouchsafe some meditation insights is to have the whole thing bass-akwards. The science types that I ride with are also big Vapasanna folks so they are quite naturally looking at the empiracal stuff they find in their science (objective) and constrasting it with what they find in their experiential (subjective) adventures. They are not of a mind that the two realms exit in exclusive realities but rather there is one coin, so to speak, and finding commonalities is an exciting adventure. The idea they - or I - am looking to science to validate far-fetched subjective "theories" is also the opposite of what is happening. More like - there have been many smart folks who have looked at reality hard and long. Some look at things (quantifiers), others look into the void, the unborn, the pre-thing. Some, like my friends, probe both realms.

I do know that most of them have doubts that, for example, the search for what the neutron is all about will perforce eventually lead to some stuff that has mass. Though I certainly don't know the math to understand this at depth, one of the things often mentioned is that no one is quite sure what mass actually is.



JL



High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jun 15, 2015 - 02:59pm PT
you're equally out of your element discussing the notion of metaphor...

no, I think I have it. ;)


PS. lol!

.....


Can monkey-mind see no-thing?

To what or to whom is this referring? Rather enigmatic?
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