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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 24, 2015 - 01:28pm PT
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Interesting article in the NYTimes Sunday Review by Paul Piff on how the experience of awe is a function of evolutionary need promoting social empathy and therefore reproductive success...
An example of pure scientism at its worse.
Also in the Times Book Review, a very generous review of Harold Blooms new book "The Daemon Knows" a celebration of the experience of the sublime (awe). Such a nice juxtaposition in these two articles... very super topo.
I love the last two lines of Cynthia Ozick's review:
"Well never mind - at least while Bloom's enrapturing book is in your hand. The daemon knows, and Bloom knows too, that in Eden, birthplace of the moral edict and the sober deed, there never was a poet."
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 24, 2015 - 03:39pm PT
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Our soul is energy, the self
I like to think of the soul as our "I" personalities. As such, the soul does not outlive the bodily host. If the soul is energy then it must resemble ectoplasm - one of my favorite words of late.
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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May 24, 2015 - 03:45pm PT
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It all rolls into one,
And nothing comes for free.
There's nothing you can hold
For very long.
And when you hear that song
Come crying like the wind,
It seems like all this life
was just a dream....
-Robert Hunter
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WBraun
climber
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May 24, 2015 - 03:51pm PT
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As such, the soul does not outlive the bodily host.
Yes it does.
Do you die every time you need a get a new coat?
You material scientists need to open up your selves.
You're way too ridged and dogmatic to see anything beyond your limitations.
Start B.A.S.E jumping into life instead of nihilism ......
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WBraun
climber
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May 24, 2015 - 04:44pm PT
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no one knows....not yet
Typical speaking on behalf of the whole cosmic manifestation.
Such ignorance saying "no one knows....not yet"
Modern scientist are such self righteous hypocrites.
No one can know anything without OUR (modern scientists) authority saying so.
Thus they have taken the role of Popes preaching dogmatic scientism drooling at their defective man made limited instruments ....
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WBraun
climber
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May 24, 2015 - 06:13pm PT
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Yep ...
Modern material science is based on faith with no evidence or proof.
Thus modern material scientists are faith based Popes preaching inconclusive truths.
Modern materialistic science has no ultimate clue that only create suprema zombies .....
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 24, 2015 - 06:41pm PT
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Modern material science is based on faith with no evidence or proof
How wrong can a duck be?
;>\
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2015 - 07:04pm PT
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WOW!
A non material substance...
But, but, it interacts with the "material substance", no?
Still, it is not material...
So confused.
Moose, here have you been? We've already gone over phenomenon that have no physical extent, no mass, and no dimensionality. You can hardly call these phenomenon "substances," but the fact is that all stuff reduces to nothing when reductionism is pushed to rock bottom.
The idea frightens people, yearning to hang onto some fundamental stuff at the bottom or reality but all that's there is no-thing, interacting with material, certainly, but not material itself.
The same is true on the experiential "I" level.
JL
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 24, 2015 - 07:14pm PT
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the fact is that all stuff reduces to nothing when reductionism is pushed to rock bottom.
If it is a fact, where is the evidence? Please show your work.
I believe that reductionism is about finding a simpler description of a system. It is not a process that necessarily has a rock bottom, but if it did, there would still be rock. Right?
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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May 24, 2015 - 07:15pm PT
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There's nothing frightening about any of it. Interesting little conceit you have going about that, though.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 24, 2015 - 09:11pm PT
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Modern material science is based on faith with no evidence or proof
What about Quantum Physics Theory? It's all theory right? Yet modern science does not discredit it
Plenty of evidence, if not the definitive proofs we have in mathematics. It's all unfinished business and doesn't claim to be ultimate answers. Where is the evidence for soul=energy?
I'm going to be sorry I asked . . .
;>(
The idea frightens people, yearning to hang onto some fundamental stuff at the bottom or reality but all that's there is no-thing, interacting with material, certainly, but not material itself
There you go again, frightening us! I'll have to sleep with the lights on again tonight.
Talk more about how no-thing interacts with material. This could further metaphysical research.
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allapah
climber
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May 25, 2015 - 02:01am PT
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is this the Friday Night While Posting Stoned All The Time Man thread? well, no, never mind, i am used to surfacing by mistake here, like a Baby Beluga in the wrong space/time hole of Super Taco, here in this thread instead, full speed ahead...
so, i have followed this thread, every word, man, every step ahead of the way... i always thought it would prove the holy grail, the existence of the WOO man, isn't what this thread is all about, the WOO, are we not here to prove its exisentece, isn't it the elephant in this cyber room?
but, either Largo throws you out out on the discontinuity between perception and reality,
Or,
the empirical scientists (with all due respect) throw you out on: 1. lack of predictabilityy 2. lack of adherence to empirical method
but everybody knows all the time that Mind is surrounding, mind is immanent, mind is in the relationships of the material, mind is the CREATURA to matter's PLEROMA...
why not admit it and find our way around this chockstone, with some sort of teleological argument, isn't that why we keep surfacing here? the WOO?
climbers with their handling of the slow-motion death attractor could contribute data that proved the warpage of causation due to MIND
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allapah
climber
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May 25, 2015 - 02:06am PT
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muons and gluons piling up, a stochastic system, a random combined with an eventual order, the simple order of these sub-atomic minutea piling up in the order they pile up-- neurons slightly sensitive to the order in which these particle/waves pile up, kind of like a log jam-- brain a random generator of predictions based on past patterns, but these predictions slightly resonating or not resonating based on the overall patterns created in space and time, due to the synapses in the nervous system resonating with the electromagnetic quantum backdrop of this universe, the climber choosing to go down today because the vibes are not right...
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allapah
climber
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May 25, 2015 - 02:11am PT
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the day he died, we had dreams of him, this is proof that the whole thing is thinking....
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 25, 2015 - 06:54am PT
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^^^^Amen
my only fear is that God would stop answering my prayer
i know that He hears all prayers. He answers mine when i pray in the name fo Jesus
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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May 25, 2015 - 07:58am PT
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'OOPS'
Talkin' god smack on the super abba zabba,
It's all uppity arrogant jibba jabba,
Put yer hand out the window there's no rain comin down,
If God were a tree he'd be wearin a frown,
There the Indian with a tear sees us floatin in our beer,
With no ears to hear a sound when we're no longer around,
All the woo talk won't go down when the oceans turn to brown,
This here present human hierarchy is nothin' at all,
Not like the physics that went down like one time in the fall,
When all the forces of the universe grinded to a halt,
That time when time got froze it was definitely not my fault.
-bushman
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2015 - 10:02am PT
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Moose. "No-thing" is not my idea, and the notion that I am confused about basic science is not defensible, because there is plenty of stuff out there about particles and so forth that anyone can understand.
For example, most particle are made up of quarks (six different types). But a quark is not made up of stuff, rather every equation posits quarks as "fractional energy charges." Why, because a quark is simply a point "with no physical distribution," or "no physical extent." In other words, there is no "thing" called a quark that HAS a "fractional energy charge." A quark IS a fractional energy charge and no thing else. So if particles are reducible to quarks, and quarks are not "things," but merely energy, then the notion that reality rests on a solid material base is not true.
Fact is - and this is counterintuitive - there is no context-independent description of "matter" at all. What's more, the belief that the terms energy and matter are interchangeable is also false. This article goes into it pretty well and very clearly.
http://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/particle-physics-basics/mass-energy-matter-etc/matter-and-energy-a-false-dichotomy/
They key to understanding this, according to my science friends, it to accept as a literal truth that particles are composed of quarks and that quarks "have no physical distribution or extent." And this last phrase is just a fancy way of saying that quarks are not THINGS that have energy. Rather there is no THING there at all that is an actual quark. Quark is simply a term referring to an equation derived from measuring a "fractional energy charge."
JL
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 25, 2015 - 10:13am PT
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Largo: . . . all stuff reduces to nothing when reductionism is pushed to rock bottom. The idea frightens people,. . .
Moose: Are you frightened, Largo?
Moose, it’s my professional experience that few people can live in a space of complete ambiguity or groundlessness. They will do just about anything to be sure of something. Every bias, premature closure, heuristic, model, abstraction, theory is a response to perceived groundlessness.
Try to imagine what your life would feel like if you were unsure that your wife and children really loved you (it's all a sham), that you had work to go to tomorrow (you get fired this very night), that you could well be completely insane (you're really only living in your mind in a bed in a hospital), that the earth would no longer spin (we're going to get hit by a big asteroid), that you’d experience yet another earthquake tomorrow (you live in Nepal), that your neighbor might steal into your home at night and murder your entire family over a whim (you live someplace else), that you could not rely upon anything continuing to work the ways that they worked yesterday. What I’m suggesting is not simple uncertainty; what I’m suggesting is No Meaning, a lack of single meaning, no ground under your feet.
Let me say that if that notion does not scare you, then I would like to know what does.
On this Memorial Day weekend, I have brief memories of combat, anarchy, chaos, what seemed like a savage randomness that lacked any meaning of or for life. In the heat of those experiences, nothing is solid . . . not even one’s own life. It is a most terrifying dream. I believe that any of us could and would die for a purpose that we can bank on. But no purpose, no meaning, no ground . . . ? Almost no one has that in them. To get there, you’d have to destroy yourself and the world you think resides all around you.
If there is nothing material that can be finally determined at the bottom of things (or if that is where experiences are leading a mind to), then a reduction to nothing solid (material) does frighten most people.
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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May 25, 2015 - 10:43am PT
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 25, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
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Interesting commentary on quarks, John. Most of what you say is current theory, some supported by experimental data of course. Theory changes, viz. the aether. It would be good if an actual physicist would chime in here with an opinion as you and I lack expertise, although your prodigies encourage and support your comments.
. . . it to accept as a literal truth . . . : I'm not sure this is a good scientific perspective, but the young can be very certain about things, and it may be true. Mathematical models are far from infallible. But I am pleased to see you are not suggesting the meditative experience of no-thing is in some way associated with virtual particles and other exotic entities of physics.
If there is nothing material that can be finally determined at the bottom of things (or if that is where experiences are leading a mind to), then a reduction to nothing solid (material) does frighten most people (MikeL)
I seriously doubt it, Mike. I tested your hypothesis on my wife, telling her physicists had determined there is nothing solid down there under the Planck scale. She gave me that look and went about her business. Your post seems to me to be an instance of existential paranoia. But maybe you're right and I should be trembling in fright.
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