What is "Mind?"

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jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Apr 18, 2015 - 04:39pm PT
It’s my understanding that “phenomena” simply means “appearances.” But what are those? It seems to me that getting from “phenomena” to “stuff” (as in material stuff) is the challenge in front of us (MikeL)

Mike, you seem to be stuck in 18th century Kantian dialogue. Your metaphysics is one of bewilderment. When you speak of organizational principles and practices it is understandable that such considerations must arise, but to persist in this way in the world of physical science, at least Newtonian science, seems unproductive at best.

But what is productivity?

You are very articulate, however, and pose interesting metaphysical conundrums.
MikeL

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Apr 18, 2015 - 05:51pm PT
I wouldn’t use that word, “metaphysics,” John. it brings up a long list of definitions that I could argue with all day. (But, hey, it’s Saturday, and a glorious one at that.)

As an aside, I don’t understand how anyone cannot be bewildered. It’s a sign of life IMO. It’s sort of like the word, “disillusioned,” which means to have given up on the illusions.

If you were a Spaniard, you’d have a affection for mystery. Weird things happen in the lives of Spaniards, and they take it in stride. They don’t need to explain everything.

If you were an Italian in Rome, you’d have an appreciation for what is called “the good life,” which means you appreciate good wine, good food, good friends, and the willingness to just relax and take the time to fully enjoy them

You may call these things a Kantian dialogue from the 18th Century. I suppose that is one take on it. There are others.

I’d say there is nothing to do, no place to go, no one to be.

Our conversations would be so much better for me over a well-made plate of pasta and good red wine. In no time, we’d probably be crying our eyes out with laughter.

Be well.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Apr 18, 2015 - 07:46pm PT
Our conversations would be so much better for me over a well-made plate of pasta and good red wine. In no time, we’d probably be crying our eyes out with laughter

You bet!


;>)
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 18, 2015 - 08:13pm PT
“the good life,”

La Dolce Vita

I like the direct translation "the sweet life"
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 18, 2015 - 08:50pm PT

although those abstract theories may be glimpses of deeper realities in nature.

Well if we were trying to suppose there was other Life between now and the BB, somewhere, somehow, sometime long before our mesaley 4Bil yrs of age. Especially the kind we have here on earth, with it,s environment of running/freezing/steaming water capability. Along with a flaming fire oxygenated atmosphere allowing the ability of breath, and hearing.

Wouldn't we have to assume that that Life(wherever/whenever) was progressing because of the same calculations/math as we use?

Even if earth didn't exist, Pi would be alive and well in our/their solar system.

It should be plausible that before any matter can move, mathematics MUST be in place.

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Apr 18, 2015 - 09:14pm PT
Odd that this would be in the news:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/alien-supercivilizations-absent-from-100-000-nearby-galaxies/

It does make one wonder, as Fermi asked, "Where is everybody?"

But then considering this maybe we're just being premature:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Earth's_Location_in_the_Universe_(JPEG).jpg

(23624 × 2953 image, won't kill the page with it here)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 18, 2015 - 09:16pm PT

Attempting to squeeze such concepts into simple analogies our five senses can experience doesnt get one very far, really

Dude, aren't you the one trying to adopt the Sun as ur Daddy?

Come'on, some spent out dead Sun is your body.. And the current burning Sun is your Life Bring'er, Evolutionalarally speaking. So there's much to be said from our senses about photons.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Apr 18, 2015 - 09:45pm PT
Wouldn't we have to assume that that Life(wherever or whenever) was progressing because of the same calculations or math as we use?

Life was progressing because the relationships were in play, before we codified them into mathematical symbols and proceeded with calculations. I think you are saying the natural relationships and processes were the mathematics without the symbols. Could be. The kind of mathematics framework Tegmark believes is the ultimate matrix of the universe.


For example, there is a fundamental process in which the instantaneous rate of change of a thing is proportional to the amount of that thing at a given time. This occurs in population growth, financial procedures, quantum effects, etc. Once the process is recognized it is symbolized into what many consider mathematics: dQ/dt=KQ(t) But you could argue the actual mathematics existed before.

Who knows . . .?
jstan

climber
Apr 18, 2015 - 11:04pm PT
Posters here love to go on publically about the wonders of their education without the slightest understanding of who paid the freight.

I don't know of whom Jim is speaking. By its nature education takes place only by standing on the shoulders of others. That is the first thing one realizes.

Edit:
Really interesting discussion. Some new ways of looking at things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=236&v=mGBm5Ywjd5o


BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 20, 2015 - 11:21am PT
Could mathematics be the mind of nature?

Here's a fun Nova special; The Great Math Mystery

http://video.pbs.org/video/2365464997/
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2015 - 01:13pm PT
Healje, I'd be interested in hearing by what process you arrive at your pronouncements about meditation and no-thing and what you mean by those terms. My sense of it is you are guessing all across the board because your wonky descriptions sound a little like a porker talking about ball room dancing. There's a noise, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with the phenomenon described. If you were to say, "There are no measurements nor yet figures to be derived from meditation itself," but applying worlds like "wisdom" to the equation moves you drift into Porkey's terrain - we can easily see why.

He said: Better read my last couple of pronouncements again...

--


Still waiting for you to pony up the process by which you arrived at your conclusions. As mentioned, I think you are merely speculating, then adopting a kind of faux avuncular tone to fob off guessing as thoughtful insight. Perhaps you think that the use of the mind in other than discursive ways is perforce the same as or renders results that are no greater than speculating.

And how about the fascinating business about the relationship between no mass and physical extent. Some people are believing "physical extent" means the effect a phenomenon has on the physical world, which is not the actual meaning of "extent." Extent has to do with basic properties of the phenomenon itself, NOT it's effect on the external world. It seems the real question is: If a phenomenon has no mass, is there any inherent properties to the thing itself that in turn creates an effect on external material reality? If so, WHAT are those inherent qualities? If we say that the inherent quality is "spin," what is spinning, from what does spin emerge, what sustains said spin and why is it - whatever "it" is - spinning.

JL

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 20, 2015 - 01:22pm PT
What level of respect is appropriate to humans who haven't been showered with the rewards of your genetic success based on the random nature of birth ?

Man if that isn't hitting the nail on the head. As far as I can tell, everyone here is here because of the fortunate circumstances of birth, including me.

We all own computers, after all.

Imagine how hard the road would have been if you had been born in a poor black family in Mississippi, or perhaps a poor African nation. Just getting to college would require far more work and ability.

In that sense, we are ignoring very real human problems.
WBraun

climber
Apr 20, 2015 - 03:36pm PT
We all own computers, after all.

Stooopid computers.

In the old days one could communicate with anyone in the universe thru the proper channels.

Now a dazes stoopid computers full of virus and govt spies.

The computers are slower than snails.

The mind can travel faster than the speed of light.

Stoopid computers are cave man tools used by us fools thinking we are now advanced.

We all went back into the cave thinking we advanced,

That's why we have and need so many light bulbs.

We are so stoopid we live in the dark and have to artificially light everything up.

Stooopid computers .....
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 20, 2015 - 03:39pm PT
Personally I don't feel guilt at having a computer (or any barometer used to measure such things ) or in general being from an economically successful country . Feeling guilt or becoming hypercritical over these types of things is unproductive and even counterproductive-- and amounts to a sort of disease of the modern mind. I have noticed that many people who do feel guilty in this way a) tend to have more "things" and are always upgrading b) rarely do anything about downsizing from a beamer to a Prius.

Socioeconomic,political, and historical factors are far too complex to conclude that one must feel bad about where one resides on the scale of living-- however those things are computed and compared in today's context.

People like to feel guilty as almost a fetish-- but rarely ever do anything substantive about whatever makes them feel that way--- except lip service, and from time to time vote for liars and con artists who promise to assuage their guilt for the price of said vote.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Apr 20, 2015 - 03:52pm PT
If a phenomenon has no mass, is there any inherent properties to the thing itself that in turn creates an effect on external material reality? If so, WHAT are those inherent qualities? If we say that the inherent quality is "spin," what is spinning, from what does spin emerge, what sustains said spin and why is it - whatever "it" is - spinning (JL)

You probably should consult with your prodigies about "spin." It may not be quite what you're familiar with when you play with your top.

Your attempt to get to the bottom of things is admirable. But maybe humans are not capable yet of making this intellectual journey since we can only conceptualize from observations in the macro world, viz., "what is spinning?"

Jake still hasn't learned simple algebra . . . It's a weary task I've chosen . . .
MikeL

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Apr 20, 2015 - 04:58pm PT
Ward: Personally I don't feel guilt at having a computer (or any barometer used to measure such things ) or in general being from an economically successful country.

Agreed. I think you can argue that guilt makes absolutely no sense when you’ve had no real hand in the determination of where, when, and under what conditions “your life” has evolved. It is karma, in a manner of speaking.

If one feels gratitude, to whom should it be sent?

“Bewilderment” is more likely the appropriate feeling to have.
Psilocyborg

climber
Apr 20, 2015 - 05:20pm PT
In the old days one could communicate with anyone in the universe thru the proper channels

whatddaya mean old days!?!
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 20, 2015 - 05:22pm PT


If one feels gratitude, to whom should it be sent?


Well the other night I was watching an excellent documentary on Dday ,and then one on Iwa Jima. I couldn't help but feeling some deep gratitude for the soldiers that fought and died there and in other battles.
Just a few months prior to that hell on Earth these guys were just grocery clerks, car mechanics, farm boys, and high school students.
When I was growing up I wasn't forced to goose step around saying "heil" to someone like Hitler. That is very important to me.
So yes I feel gratitude. And I've just identified to whom I feel that gratitude.

So if you're looking for someone to send a little gratitude to --you can't beat a little guy who was scared to death that day the big doors opened.
WBraun

climber
Apr 20, 2015 - 05:46pm PT
500 Year Old Map Was Discovered That Shatters The “Official” History Of The Planet

Right off the bat, one of the most compelling facts about the map is that it includes a continent that our history books tell us was not discovered until 1818.

Secondly, the map depicts what is known as “Queen Maud Land,” a 2.7 million-square-kilometer (1 million sq mi) region of Antarctica as it looked millions of years ago.
This region and other regions shown on the map are thought to have been covered completely in ice, but the map tells a different story.
It shows this area as ice free, which suggests that these areas passed through a long ice-free period
which might not have come to an end until approximately six thousand years ago, which again, totally goes against what is taught and currently believed.
Today, geological evidence has confirmed that this area could not have been ice-free until about 4000 BC.

Official science has been saying all along that the ice-cap which covers the Antarctic is millions of years old.
The Piri Reis map shows that the northern part of that continent has been mapped before the ice did cover it.

This means that it was mapped a million years ago, but that’s impossible, since mankind did not exist at that time.

Quite the conundrum isn’t it?
WBraun

climber
Apr 20, 2015 - 06:39pm PT
Not who but where.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Queen+Maud+Land&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=D6o1VZuNO4KyoQTuroBw&ved=0CDEQsAQ&biw=1920&bih=959
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