What is "Mind?"

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Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 10:17am PT
E=MC(C)

Matter is a thing. Energy is a thing. EveryTHING in the universe is a thing.


Dingus, Strassler is an interesting scientist to me, not a hero. Hero's always fall.

If the above is your assertion and belief, I will have Strassler respond to it. Just making sure before asking him to clear this up for you.

JL
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 9, 2014 - 10:22am PT
So Largo wants to address me directly now?

Be sure to explain to your scientist, largo, the reason we are having this quibble over the nature of the universe... ie you want the door open to mysterious energies that can't be measured, by science - ever. That is the root of this discussion.

I reject that idea, utterly.

So then you try to assert that energy plays by different rules in this universe, than does matter. It does not because guess what? Matter equals energy.

So sure, drag your a scientist into this. Feel free. But do the topic honesty by describing your wooful energies to the good scientist, too, ok?

DMT
WBraun

climber
Sep 9, 2014 - 10:27am PT
The Mayavadi philosophy is "veiled Buddhism."

In other words, the voidist philosophy of Buddha is more or less repeated in the Mayavadi philosophy of impersonalism,
although the Mayavadi philosophy claims to be directed by the Vedic conclusions. Lord Siva, however,
admits that this philosophy is manufactured by him [in his incarnation as Sankaracarya in the age of Kali in order to mislead the atheists.

Sankaracarya rejected Buddha's philosophy, which gives no information concerning the spirit soul.

Buddha's philosophy deals only with the material elements and the dissolution of matter.

Generally they compare the living entities to the bubbles of the ocean, which merge into the ocean; thus the goal of Buddhism is to merge everything into the voidness.

For impersonalists this might be the highest perfection of spiritual existence attainable without individual personality,
but for a personalist to dissolve his individuality would amount to "spiritual suicide".

Impersonalists (mayavadis), who are frustrated by the struggle of material existence,
generally try to kill their identity by merging into the existence of impersonal Brahman.
MikeL

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 9, 2014 - 10:37am PT
DMT: Matter is a thing. Energy is a thing. EveryTHING in the universe is a thing.

Scratch any "thing," and you will find a concept. Every concept is an abstraction. You don't grok a thing; you grok its concept. There are no things, just concepts.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 9, 2014 - 10:42am PT
There are no things, just concepts.

Is this an example of what's assimilated at so-called "liberal arts schools" via "the humanities" when there's so little exposure to hands-on nature investigation via science? Sad.

Who's your hero, Leon Wieseltier?

You are one weird cat.

.....

He's a slippery one, dmt. You've got him on the ropes now, or just as well, he's got himself on the ropes now, don't let him escape, lol!

.....

For the record there was as much art and design appreciation and hands-on experience in my science and engineering background as anything else. That art doesn't accompany science of all types is such a canard, waste of time.

To criticize "liberal arts" schools (often for their dissing of science in numerous ways) is not in any way to attack arts or art forms.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 9, 2014 - 10:46am PT
Or DMT could just read Strassler's link before playing tuggy toy with a common and gross oversimplification (ex: matter = energy).

The problem is that we're well invested in what our senses tell us about reality. The quantum world doesn't jibe with that - at all. It's...weird. Just weird. And it's kind of complicated. And unfinished. And, perhaps, largely wrong. So we try to stuff it back into a framework we're used to, and one that we can easily remember.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 9, 2014 - 10:50am PT
Nine tens of these posts are over-simplifications. By necessity.

Over-simplifications. As have been many of yours of late.


No worries, though, as many can handle them. They recognize them for what they are. Like big steps, high steps, in climbing. One pulls through. Without too much bitching about it. After years of training, it's amazing how one can see through the mess, the messes, the briar patches, to see what's really going on.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 9, 2014 - 10:51am PT
DMT's is just plain wrong, however. He would do well to read Strassler's link, even as he rails against its messenger.

He also conflates LG's experiential postings with an actual physicist's rather lucid explanation of our current understanding of matter and energy. The 'no thing' idea and Stassler's explanation of energy have nothing to do with each other, really. Energy is, of course, measurable. It is an attribute, or state. Whether that constitutes a 'thing' in one's mind or not is, well, as you like it, really. And it's probably best to shitcan the term 'matter' entirely in any scientific discussion - given that, with its ambiguity and multiple definitions, it's really not a scientific term at all.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 9, 2014 - 11:00am PT
Insofar as that's true, what about LG's role in all the miscommunication and tone and flippancy on this thread. As far as I'm concerned he's earned all the criticism and even misunderstanding (when it results) to come his way. And more.

But his How to Rock Climb was great. So too was his anchors book. (Btw, in part, this is because he deferred to the science and science-based engineering that characterizes our beloved sport, and backs it up and enhances it.)

So there it is. ;)
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 9, 2014 - 11:07am PT
I didn't conflate anyTHING. I'm not the one banking on mysterious undetectable energies.

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 9, 2014 - 11:07am PT
Scratch any "thing," and you will find a concept. Every concept is an abstraction. You don't grok a thing; you grok its concept. There are no things, just concepts.

So?

DMT
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 9, 2014 - 11:12am PT
Irrelevant to his Strassler post. Are you here to 'meet out justice', or discuss What is Mind?

I've ribbed Largo as much as anyone, and he's returned fire, as you do, but, in the end, I take sound information where I find it, regardless of the source. LG comes off as pompous, I come off as smarmy, HFCS hates to be disagreed with, Mike L's parents appear not to have come from Earth, and Werner is, well, Werner - yeah, we know, already. I've kinda run out of material there, frankly - a certain familiarity creeps in, despite our proclivities.

I don't see anyone else here 'in the other camp', or incapable of tossing out an interesting or compelling idea. It's a pot luck - everyone here has offered up at least one platter of crunchy egg rolls. In the end, I'm here to extend my fantastically limited understanding of things (and have a little fun along the way).

So far, so good, really. There's chaff here, sure, but enough wheat to make toast.
WBraun

climber
Sep 9, 2014 - 11:13am PT
I'm not the one banking on mysterious undetectable energies.

No one is banking on such a thing.

All energies material and spiritual are detectable.

No sane person would bank on undetectable energies.

Undetectable energies are just that, undetectable, and never ever existed to begin with except by mental speculators with poor fund of knowledge.

You guys make up too much sh!t ......
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 9, 2014 - 11:15am PT
Points taken.

Off to read Waking Up, by Sam Harris, now.

I'll actually be looking to tear it apart, and I hope to succeed in at least a few areas, lol!
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 9, 2014 - 11:16am PT
One can't know about undetectable energy - so it can't be discussed, by definition.

That's all I'm sayin'.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Sep 9, 2014 - 11:16am PT
Western dichotomies!

How about the universe is both a material thing and an abstraction not either/ or?

Why can't we have a universe full of things while realizing that all we will ever know of them are just our abstractions? Until of course we bump our head on one. And then immediately begin to figure out (abstract) why. Our fault, its fault, their fault etc.

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 9, 2014 - 11:24am PT
One can't know about undetectable energy - so it can't be discussed, by definition.

Can't be discussed?

Lol.

DMT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 9, 2014 - 11:24am PT
Why can't we have a universe full of things while realizing that all we will ever know of them are just our abstractions?

So why are we arguing? This comes straight from science. Information science, psychology, science of the mental life, evolutionary theory, etc. all point to (a) an objective real world out there (that's intelligible and learnable); and (b) a mental life evolved as learning machine and or prediction machine (that maps the world using abstraction, concepts, perceptions; utilizing attention, focus, memory, intention, strategy, etc) for getting on with it (primarily through survival and reproduction).

Nature investigation via science. Basic principles.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 9, 2014 - 11:27am PT
Next time a loose piece of trundled choss cracks me in the shin, I'll have to remember to tell myself it's just a concept.

All that blood, just a concept.

My desire to choke the crap out of the idiot who kicked it loose.

Well yeah, that would be just a concept.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 9, 2014 - 11:28am PT
Hope it wasn't too serious, short of stitches, I hope.
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