Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
|
form and emptiness define each other
as do birth and death
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2014 - 08:54pm PT
|
I recommend Hayden's (edit: make that Haydn's) The Creation. With attention to the separation of Chaos into Night and Day.
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2014 - 09:51pm PT
|
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2014 - 05:15am PT
|
I had a big breakthrough while reading Harris's Waking Up. Like most people I've had a hard time understanding the concept of no self. I tried to grasp it by thinking of how I feel like a different person when speaking a different language in a foreign culture. Still, there always felt like there was some substrata that was me
Likewise, when contemplating my unconscious mind which I've explored a lot through dream analysis and meditation, I was aware of an aspect of my mind that operated only in symbols, but was extremely clever in its own subtle and abstract way. Language so dominates the mind however, I always thought of the unconscious as a hidden, mostly subsidiary, aspect of my one mind.
Everyone following this thread long time knows that I've been fascinated with the concept of left and right brain and the different functions of the hemispheres. I was of course aware of experiments with cutting the corpus callosum, the nerves connecting the two. And there it was staring me in the face all the time.
If the two halves of the brain severed from each other act independently and in ignorance of each other, how is it possible that we have one unitary self and the answer is we don't. Our sense of self is a pasted together network of interactions. If there's any permanent consciousness in the universe it has to be a universal consciousness of which we are a part. It can not be our individual self.
This insight may seem either mystical or trivial, but for me it was a big breakthrough - neuroscience used to understand Buddhism.
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2014 - 07:21am PT
|
Thanks, Jan, for letting us see a little more of your perspective and where it comes from. Before understanding no self it would seem important to understand self.
We have a strong tendency to hear words and think that because there is a word for it there is a thing like it. This is true for words we encounter in those early years when we first learn about the world and language. There are chairs and doors and dogs. Other words, like love, beauty, and self refer to things we aren't so used to bumping heads with.
The two girls with partly joined brains are another good question for anyone who thinks they have nailed down the concept of 'self.'
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2014 - 07:48am PT
|
Every thing complements every other thing. We see that especially with binary complements. Form and emptiness, left and right, the sweetness and harshness of life, energy and interpretation.
Meditation helps to train one in what "directly" means, but it's been said that "selflessly" dawns on a person over time. The prerequisite for selflessness is being present, particularly to one's emotions. Looking at emotions directly, they either disappear or morph into other things.
Without the "entanglement" of energy and interpretation with each other, interpretations can be seen simply as thoughts. Then what is left is pure dynamic energy. It is that raw energy that can supposedly wake a person up. Then people feel emotions "selflessly" and surf them.
In Tibet, the training for disconnecting interpretations from energy fields are charnel grounds--where body parts are strewn in fields (they can't be buried in frozen ground).
Many have said that the contemplation of death is the greatest spiritual practice there is. (Where's Locker?)
There's nothing wrong with interpretations. We can have views and opinions about anything. It's just that it's a glitch in the system when we cling to those views. Instead, we can just have fun with them, try them on, like an actor in the theatre. They are story lines.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2014 - 08:06am PT
|
Mirror neurons
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2014 - 09:09am PT
|
If there's any permanent consciousness in the universe it has to be a universal consciousness of which we are a part. It can not be our individual self.
The consciousness is there. Actually there are two. We are all the time connected, adding, receiving to one or the other. Every night i wash my face with ivory soap and noxema just like i watched my grandma do since i was a boy. In doing this i can hear her advice and even hear her sing. If i really need her, i go out and rake the leaves. Meditative action ive found to be the best way for me to open awareness to consciousness. It involves both left and right sides. i don't see where neuroscience was needed for this enlightenment when it was in the bible the whole time.
But good on ya either way
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2014 - 10:50am PT
|
Jstan: Mirror neurons.
Another story line.
|
|
PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2014 - 11:51am PT
|
MH@ said "Before understanding no self it would seem important to understand self.
We have a strong tendency to hear words and think that because there is a word for it there is a thing like it. This is true for words we encounter in those early years when we first learn about the world and language. There are chairs and doors and dogs. Other words, like love, beauty, and self refer to things we aren't so used to bumping heads with."
Well said; and when you sit down and decide not to move for 25 plus minutes self immediately appears in the form of internal dialog and emotions etc. because "I" doesn't typically want to sit still for 25 minutes. "I" often gets uncomfortable in this situation and starts whining or moving (rather than sit still). Try sitting perfectly still; there will be a strong temptation to move especially in the first few minutes.
Why is that? What is this "I" that doesn't like things and likes other things.
It is a wonderfully effective technique to observe the self ( ego) It is similar to when you start a run that first 10 minutes is a killer "I" doesn't like the change.
MH I like how you explain how we are basically taught from a very early stage that things are their names. Not the other way, that they are things that we gave a name to. consequently we become attached to name and form.
As many people have already said the intent of buddha was to get you to experience "no "I" not to conceptually understand it.
|
|
Tvash
climber
Seattle
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2014 - 11:56am PT
|
"in quantum mechanics energy is quantized
the quanta of the electromagnetic field are photons, they are particles
for the strong interaction as described by the standard model, the quantum chromodynamic fields are the gluons
for the weak interaction, which is also described as a field, they are the W and the Z bosons
eventually for the gravitational field it will be the graviton
the Higgs field that fills all of space, the recently discovered Higgs boson"
My understanding is as follows:
Fermions do not interact directly with each other, but only through bosons. While the Higgs particle represents a disturbance in the Higgs field, and therefore indicates its existence, it does not play a role in imparting rest mass energy to fermions - their presence within the Higgs field (which is everywhere) does that without the Higgs boson. The Higgs boson, while labeled as such, really isn't a boson by the normal definition at all.
We punched the Higgs field hard enough to produce a Higgs boson, but does anyone know what, if anything, it actually does in relation to the other components of the Standard Model? It's mass appears to be paradoxically low, although I don't fully the nature of that paradox (scale symmetry, etc).
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2014 - 12:22pm PT
|
Fermions do not interact directly with each other, but only through bosons . . . (Tvash)
Wow! I am impressed. Your fund of knowledge in physics far exceeds my "poor fund". You actually sound like you know what you are talking about.
I'm going to experiment with time-dependent vector fields to determine when "ripples"appear momentarily. Sounds like fun . . . but presumptuous to think it actually relates to physics.
Turning to other matters, one evening last week as I drifted towards sleep I accidentally caught the hypnagogic state, something I practiced over forty years ago when indulging in Castenada's art of dreaming ( surfing the astral plane, lucid dreaming, wandering the halls of Jesus' mansion, etc., etc.). This time I decided on the spot to let "I" subside. And "I" slowly drifted away to my right until it was gone. What remained was a very peaceful and calm experience, almost a relief from normal personal reality. After a short time I too drifted off to sleep, but upon awakening I remembered the sensations vividly.
Thus it may be possible with very little effort to momentarily experience what Zen practitioners train to achieve on a more prolonged basis. Of course as climbers we all have left "I" behind when in the throes of athletic movement - I certainly had that experience frequently as a gymnast. But to watch as "I" gently vacates the premises is different and rewarding.
|
|
PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
|
I tried the casteneda thing where I would try to look at my hands in my sleep to get it started , never could do it. I have a friend said he could do it, walk around and everything.
J gill, did you ever do gymnastics with abie grossfeld ? , he competed for university of illinois and was my coach in college.
|
|
Tvash
climber
Seattle
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2014 - 01:31pm PT
|
I'm parroting Strassler's explanations, through analogy and visualizations (both his and my own), nothing more. I can appreciate what's on the dinner plate, even if I can't read the menu (because I'm not fluent in the math).
Thinking of particles and fields is not dissimilar to computer aided design - where systems and subsystems occupy different overlapping layers - each with its own design rules, interactions between components, and interactions with other layers. Simplifying such visualizations into 2 D elastic branes - like ball bearings rolling around stretched fabric, helps.
I'm a little confused with regards to the distinction between virtual particles (virtual gluons, for example), and other particles (gluons). I can see the distinction between photons and virtual photons - such as those produced by the passing of two electrons. Must virtual particles be short lived?
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2014 - 05:22pm PT
|
J gill, did you ever do gymnastics with abie grossfeld ? (PP)
I suppose you could say I did in a vague sense: I was at the U of Chicago 1958-59 and assisted Coach Kreidler with the gymnastics team there. In 1959 the Pan-American Games were held at Navy Pier and the guys worked out at the U before the competitions began. I can remember holding the chalk for Art Shurlock while he practiced the pommel horse, and I think Abe was there as well. I may have talked with him about the still rings and perhaps spotted him. I did meet Muriel Davis (Grossfeld) and she competed in the Games; that was the first time I had ever seen a woman perform true strength moves - she did an impressive press to handstand on the beam during her routine. During that period I rarely saw a woman engage in rock climbing, and those I did observe were not strong, rather supple and poised with good balance. There was a ballerina who would accompany us to Devils Lake who had better balance than any of us.
Thanks for bringing back good memories!
;>)
Edit: Yes I did work out "with" Abie. Now I remember. On the rings. But he was eclipsed by Jay Ashmore, who did moves I had never seen before. Ashmore won the gold in rings - amazing guy, light as a feather as I recall. It's odd, but I can't find reference to Art actually competing in the games. Don't really know why. He certainly accompanied the team.
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2014 - 05:47pm PT
|
As many people have already said the intent of buddha was to get you to experience "no "I" not to conceptually understand it. (PSP also PP)
Thanks for that. An important distinction.
Or just another story. ; >
|
|
PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2014 - 07:57pm PT
|
Thanks John; I forwarded your comments to abie. He has a great memory of meets etc. it will be interesting to see what he says about Ashmore. He became a very successful coach with his teams winning several national championships with no scholarships.
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
|
It will be interesting to see what he says. It may turn out it was some other member of the team on the rings, but I think it was him. And I think Ashmore was the guy that so impressed me. I came up with the name by looking up that team, and I do think they called him Jay.
But who knows? Shurlock is the guy I remember best, but maybe he was there at another time . . . my memory's not so great these days.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2014 - 09:25pm PT
|
I'm a little confused with regards to the distinction between virtual particles (virtual gluons, for example), and other particles (gluons).
maybe you don't have enough faith?
good question though, i'd like to hear that answer.
By "virtual" arent we meaning we're projecting the gluon being there?
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2014 - 09:38pm PT
|
The word "virtual" can have a variety of meanings in science and math. For instance, here is a classroom note concerning images of a "virtual" definite integral: strangely its value is easily computed but the actual function being integrated - the integrand - frequently cannot be written down easily, if at all: Images of Virtual Integrals
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!