What is "Mind?"

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BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 12, 2014 - 10:00pm PT

..what do you expect it to do?

Explore outer space?


Run for president

Explore space? All you need for that is an arm, a leg, and an eye. No sentience required.

And President? i don't think the power hungry Aluminotty would allow that?

What they are geared for is "helping" people.Science has showed that while living alone if the person has a pet(something to talk to that reacts) the patient will live longer. Thus the "medical" companys are pumping money into developing a reactionary robot to help the lonely. And to help other chronic Psych disorders. Then there's the Porn industry with all their Billions. Scientists will take money from anybodys pocket inorder to stay busy.
MH2

climber
Jul 12, 2014 - 10:06pm PT
Question...assuming the day arrives where AI is truly achieved and some form of biomechanical machine lives with all of the collective wisdom and functionality of the human mind sans any of the pettiness of human frailty...what do you expect it to do? (Ricky D)



Build a smarter machine than itself, of course.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 12, 2014 - 10:31pm PT
^^^Would that be by deleting emotions?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 12, 2014 - 10:38pm PT
^^^Would that be by deleting emotions?

Perhaps.Maybe you wouldn't want a computer becoming jealous of another and committing a crime of passion.
You certainly wouldn't want an android to commit serial lust killings. Think of the body count under those circumstances.

Here is a good rule of thumb: computers take care of difficult tasks--- like body clean-ups after plane wrecks---and us humans will take care of the horrendously messy emotions that somehow make us feel special anyhow .
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Jul 12, 2014 - 10:49pm PT
I wonder if I will live to see the day when computers write law. Possibly, they could structure optimal solutions, ones sure to make everyone equitably upset.


google edit:
ones sure to equitably upset everyone.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 12, 2014 - 11:21pm PT

Here is a good rule of thumb: computers take care of difficult tasks--- like body clean-ups after plane wrecks---and us humans will take care of the horrendously messy emotions that somehow make us feel special anyhow .

Now ur sound'in like God with a bunch of Angels?
MikeL

Trad climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 12, 2014 - 11:51pm PT
Jgill:

Awaiting our household goods to arrive in Seattle from Santa Clara, Lisa and I visited an origami exhibit at Bellevue Art Museum--and thought of you and your work in visual mathematics (or whatever I should call it). It was difficult to believe that most of the the works were made with single sheets of paper.

Credit: MikeL

Credit: MikeL

Credit: MikeL

Credit: MikeL

Credit: MikeL

Credit: MikeL

These are sheets of $1 bills.
These are sheets of $1 bills.
Credit: MikeL

Credit: MikeL

MikeL

Trad climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 13, 2014 - 12:09am PT
"What we are really looking for is a bridge, some way of connecting two separate scientific languages — those of neuroscience and psychology."

(Taken today from "The Trouble With Brain Science," in today's NYTs: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/12/opinion/the-trouble-with-brain-science.html?);

Here, too, folks conflate the mind and the brain. At that, . . . there appears to be some authorities who argue that there is no good theory of the brain (much less the mind). There is so far to go in this field of study.


"Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow."

"My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year."

"He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound’s the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake."

"The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."

(Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening
by ROBERT FROST)

go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jul 13, 2014 - 07:00am PT

John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John
Credit: go-B
Credit: go-B
Credit: go-B
Credit: go-B
Credit: go-B
Credit: go-B
Credit: go-B
Credit: go-B

...Jesus wept!
MH2

climber
Jul 13, 2014 - 08:21am PT
^^^Would that be by deleting emotions? (BLUEBLOCR)



From being curious. Which can be dangerous from what I'm told.





The science of spontaneity?? Why DO people think science is for everything? However, the author sounded pretty sensible when interviewed by Sheryl MacKay on CBC Radio's North by Northwest this morning.


Trying Not to Try: The Art and Science of Spontaneity
Edward Slingerland
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 13, 2014 - 10:23am PT
Math, science and measurement to the rescue of our senses...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHbf98b-Mns&feature=youtu.be
MikeL

Trad climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 13, 2014 - 11:52am PT
MH2:

I've read a couple of Slingerland's books on effortless action. They are worth reading to understand the academic side of wu wei and Confucius' "Analects," but I found myself thinking very often how Slingerland tends to get all balled-up academically within the topics. Wu wei can be well characterized as "trying not to try," but that hardly helps anyone. But if it is something you want to explain to someone else definitively, you'll just fail. That is the main outcomes of the 3 books he's written on the subject. Wu wei, or effortless action, is not something you can understand intellectually or definitively. It's not an analytical knowledge that you can learn. It's not even something that you can do. It's more a label for a state of being, and out of the state of being, things just get done (e.g., "effortless action").

All academics or people who try to explain "spiritual experiences" find themselves failing and lying because they can't tell the truth. No one can. Confucius, Laozi, Mencius, Zhuangzi, and the Xunzi all took different views of Wu Wei and attempted to teach it differently. Even D.T. Suzuki, HHDL, and other great masters cannot do anything other than vaguely point. It's always up to you. Each of us is ultimately our own guru in the end.

Slingerland's books are fine. But they can't get you anywhere but someplace else in your mind.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 13, 2014 - 12:23pm PT
Funny thing about Fruity"s vid,
In Tyson"s argument for linear logical mathematical thinking opposed to Senses. Right at about 2 minutes into the film, Tyson looses train of thought and reckons he should have been a Playwright instead of a Mathematician. Did anyone else see the irony in that?

Tyson starts out insinuating that all mankind started out in Africa and evolved to "invent math". The oldest recordings by Man we have today prove we were thinking about "math" some 5-10 Thousand yrs ago. Keeping track of trade, and the number of days and seasons, to name a few. But we didn't "invent math" as much as we INVENTED Language. One "symbol" plus another "symbol" equals a third "symbol", and so on. We merely WITNESSED the methods in Nature and "called" them something. Obviously the Math was there all the time! And we are still WITNESSING today, only down narrower, and out broader. For one to see to these horizons, one must follow a long chronicled list of "symbols" to become aware of Natures Truths. Each so-called "invention" is merely the uncovering by man of the next evolutionary step in the lineary line of that progression. IF we are maybe inventing anything, we are inventing OURSELVES! The more Symbols and information we fill our Brains with, the more mature our sense of how we feel on any given situation, or idea.

For ALL the stored symbols and information in Tyson's head. He still can't help sensing the creative feeling in writing music..

Maybe does the wealth of information lead to a wealth of creativity?

Or does a wealth of creativity lead to a wealth of information?


Mh2's link to "trying not to try" seems to be the opposite view of that of Tyson's. Funny again.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 13, 2014 - 01:25pm PT
"The oldest recordings by Man we have today prove we were thinking about "math" some 5-10 Thousand yrs ago. Keeping track of trade, and the number of days and seasons, to name a few. But we didn't "invent math" as much as we INVENTED Language. One "symbol" plus another "symbol" equals a third "symbol", and so on. We merely WITNESSED the methods in Nature and "called" them something. Obviously the Math was there all the time! And we are still WITNESSING today, only down narrower, and out broader. For one to see to these horizons, one must follow a long chronicled list of "symbols" to become aware of Natures Truths. Each so-called "invention" is merely the uncovering by man of the next evolutionary step in the lineary line of that progression. IF we are maybe inventing anything, we are inventing OURSELVES! The more Symbols and information we fill our Brains with, the more mature our sense of how we feel on any given situation, or idea."

Perhaps your keenest post on these subjects ever.

Perhaps copy it, print it out and hang it on a wall!
MH2

climber
Jul 13, 2014 - 02:03pm PT
According to the radio interview I listened to, Slingerland explores wu-wei from 4 different angles in his book, each of which contradicts the others, which is probably as close as you can get to trying not to try.

It was funny hearing Slingerland admit that when driving he is FAR away from wu-wei, and explains that he comes from a part of New Jersey where Eastern influence is not in much evidence.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jul 13, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
Psalm 90:12 So teach us to number our days,
That we may gain a heart of wisdom.


Matthew 6:27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?

Matthew 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.


...it adds up!


BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 13, 2014 - 02:16pm PT

Perhaps your keenest post on these subjects ever.

Perhaps copy it, print it out and hang it on a wall!

Thank You!

Perhaps it's your most positively reinforced post towards anyone here?

Perhaps you should hang it on the wall?

Jus play'in, Lets keep it up!
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jul 13, 2014 - 04:56pm PT
Lisa and I visited an origami exhibit at Bellevue Art Museum--and thought of you and your work in visual mathematics (or whatever I should call it) (MikeL)


Thanks, Mike. Those are lovely forms. A colleague of mine, Wolf Thron, did wood carving as a hobby for many years and produced some beautiful artworks using topological ideas for models.

Concerning the discussion of math, it's interesting that a few of the word problems still published today in algebra texts actually have their origins in antiquity. For instance: two workers hoe a field with one taking ten hours by himself and the other taking seven hours by himself, how long will it take for both to hoe the field working simultaneously? This problem has been discovered engraved in cuneiform on clay tablets dating many thousands of years ago. What's equally interesting is that a week or so ago, Marilyn vos Savant, who writes a column for newspapers and is regarded as one of the world's smartest women, was asked about a simple version of this problem: her "solution" was wrong. Although it was close, as Largo says, "No cigar!"

Tyson is not a mathematician (I haven't watched the videos HFCS posted), although he has undoubtedly used lots of math in his studies. To a mathematician the expression "linear mathematics" is not the same as "the linear nature of mathematics." And this linear nature appears after much non-linear thought - trial and error sort of stuff - when the results are written up for publication.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 13, 2014 - 05:04pm PT

It was funny hearing Slingerland admit that when driving he is FAR away from wu-wei,

There's something funny about when we are in the heart of experience, seeing, sensing, reacting. We either repel/rebel and say "Fuc You" to intersecting Qualia, like he did when getting cut off. Or one takes the opposite road and attracts/adheres/admits by saying, "you go first".
Much of what determines either/or outcome in the heat of experience is our Mood. How we feel towards said experiences justification. If we feel we were "wronged" we intuitively repel then rebel with a "fuc you". Is THIS Opposition/Attraction the Nature of Man? Is it at the heart of Nature? Nature shows us that an equilibrium of positive/negative poles warrants for a stable and harmonious environment. Not to much or not to little of gravity,light,darkness,water, dryness,nutrients,exercise,etc. provide an opportune environment for growing plants. And Nature has corresponded this equilibrium without thinking? Without concern to the future; Without projecting "what if's" about tomorrows. Doesn't She just work by Sensing?

Man has choice between two paths. And will feel directly/indirectly the outcome from that decision. We all learn that if we strive along with a positive outcome, we flow with our environment and prosper and grow. But when we show negativity, we cause "speed bumps", or "walls".

Wo-Wei, Zen, Meditations, Religions, etc., Man-made self antiquated ritual methods of Equilibrium may in fact bring a more harmonious walk in this life to some extent.

Now i would like to introduce Scientific method/proof for The Teachings of Jesus providing Everlasting Life. Jesus/God taught that by forgiving a "negative" action like "when we are wronged" instead of saying "fuc you", and in a manner we are murdering it in our mind. By "forgiving" it, aren't we rationally admitting/accepting the negative action, and instead of killing it by way of justification. Humbly we allow a Pardon through the common sense of Love. And instead of a Law abiding sentence of death to the negativity, it becomes a positive through self-sacrifice and continues to live on.

Jesus declared, "The greatest sign of Love you can show is by laying down your own life for that of another."

i don't see or sense self-sacrifice anywhere in Nature. As a matter of fact it could be anti-evolutionary. Maybe thats why we find it so hard to Forgive?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 13, 2014 - 07:10pm PT
re: the mind of Tyson

Here it is employing reason, sense of self, and knowledge in the face of death...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rPQPGJRvGg

Makes sense to me, count me in!
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