What is "Mind?"

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FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Jun 6, 2014 - 06:51pm PT
I don't understand how being a critical thinker somehow makes one immune to poetry....or beauty...or grace....or.....



Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 6, 2014 - 07:08pm PT

the interface between the synapses and the quarks / leptons


that's a stretch, of course, electrons are leptons...

but quarks don't have anything to do with the synapses (we don't need quark degrees-of-freedom to understand them).

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/344/6187/1023.full.pdf
Science 344, 1023 (2014)

Composition of isolated synaptic boutons reveals the amounts of vesicle trafficking proteins


Benjamin G. Wilhelm, Sunit Mandad, Sven Truckenbrodt, Katharina Kröhnert,
Christina Schäfer, Burkhard Rammner, Seong Joo Koo, Gala A. Claßen, Michael Krauss, Volker Haucke, Henning Urlaub, Silvio O. Rizzoli

Synaptic vesicle recycling has long served as a model for the general mechanisms of cellular trafficking. We used an integrative approach, combining quantitative immunoblotting and mass spectrometry to determine protein numbers; electron microscopy to measure organelle numbers, sizes, and positions; and super-resolution fluorescence microscopy to localize the proteins. Using these data, we generated a three-dimensional model of an “average” synapse, displaying 300,000 proteins in atomic detail. The copy numbers of proteins involved in the same step of synaptic vesicle recycling correlated closely. In contrast, copy numbers varied over more than three orders of magnitude between steps, from about 150 copies for the endosomal fusion proteins to more than 20,000 for the exocytotic ones.

The quantitative organization of cellular pathways is not well understood. One well-researched membrane trafficking pathway, synaptic vesicle recycling, occupies its own compartment, the synaptic bouton, and can therefore be studied in isolation. It is a relatively simple pathway, comprising only a few steps (1–3). First, neurotransmitter-filled synaptic vesicles dock to the release site (active zone), are primed for release, and then fuse with the plasma membrane (exocytosis). The vesicle molecules are later sorted and retrieved from the plasma membrane (endocytosis). An additional sorting step in an early endosome (3–5) may take place before the vesicle refills with neurotransmitter.

Fig. 3 A 3D model of synaptic architecture.
Fig. 3 A 3D model of synaptic architecture.
Credit: Science Magazine
(A) A section through the synaptic bouton, indicating 60 proteins. The proteins are shown in the copy numbers indicated in tables S1 and S2 and in positions determined according to the imaging data (Fig. 2 and fig. S6) and to the literature (see fig. S6 for details). (B) High-zoom view of the active zone area. (C) High-zoom view of one vesicle within the vesicle cluster. (D) High-zoom view of a section of the plasma membrane in the vicinity of the active zone. Clusters of syntaxin (yellow) and SNAP 25 (red) are visible, as well as a recently fused synaptic vesicle (top). The graphical legend indicates the different proteins (right). Displayed synaptic vesicles have a diameter of 42 nm.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 6, 2014 - 07:20pm PT
There's an animated video that goes with that paper, watched it a day or two ago, probably pretty easy to find. Most of what is shown there are proteins that do all sorts of specialized things. And that's just one synapse, there are trillions of them. The complexity is overwhelming. That's mind.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 6, 2014 - 08:05pm PT
No; that is an explanation of mind. and not even that.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 6, 2014 - 08:10pm PT
^^^sorry for the rant,feels like the gov. living in the pocket of my pant.


back to the mind.

lets get this mind thing figured out.we dont need no subsidies.

we got computers, we can know what they know.we can read the ones and zeros.

lets start on the brass tacks. not evolutionary, how the mind became to be.
but whats here and now.

starting with what JSTAN said;
"there is a voice in our head that is not our friend"

to me this manifests that there are atleast two voices talking in our head.
let us start there. the mind has two opinions of what the body should do?
or which decision to make?
i think EVERYONE would agree on that.that there are atleast two?
let us think about that for a moment.........
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 6, 2014 - 08:28pm PT
Mr. ED ur badass!


No Bluette,

cintune i think ur wrong! alshiemers,autisanism,etc. are modern mechanisms.
and are on the rise today. Which means there is something in our coolaid. the dark ages didnt have to deal with aluminum, fluoride,smog,plastics,etc. which are definitely having an effect on our bodys.and of course the millions of other things!

DONT TALK SH#T!
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 6, 2014 - 08:59pm PT
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152503347178033

"If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency, and vibration" - Nikola Tesla
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 6, 2014 - 09:09pm PT
why would the mind have two opinions?

is this the "free will" everyone is talking about?

theres definiely not free will in managing the bodys functioning ever, or even when we're asleep. body functioning is left up to the brain. or maybe the individual parts? like an octopus.(thats a different discussion).

im talkin about when the mind is conscious (operating with the ability to remember)does it have the opportunity for choice. the brain is obliviously linear. while the mind can go in any direction.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 6, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, CA
Jun 6, 2014 - 09:19pm PT
Let us not forget about 'lead'. If ingested, lead is poisonous to animals, including humans. It damages the nervous system and causes brain disorders. Excessive lead also causes blood disorders in mammals. Like the element mercury, another heavy metal, lead is a neurotoxin that accumulates both in soft tissues and the bones. Lead poisoning has been documented from ancient Rome, ancient Greece, and ancient China.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 6, 2014 - 09:25pm PT
^^^YEA!

my mouth is full of mercury.something the so called science approved magicians were able to fix teeth with.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 6, 2014 - 09:36pm PT
"If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency, and vibration" - Nikola Tesla

good on you Tom, and Mr.Tesla.

i,ve found secrets. and have confirmed with others.the root of my evil, is why only some can believe?


back to the mind.

why does each of ours give us atleast two distinctive conclusions?

if it were up to evolution its the biggest and strongest.and there wouldnt be much of a choice. have we graduated to a choice? that we could deferre to whats good for others to?

has a plant ever been concened about the well bein of another plant?

the lioness certainly responds to whats good for her cubs. but is she concerned with whats up with the zebra?

sorry i degress
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 6, 2014 - 10:39pm PT
The EvoGrid and Second Genesis by my old friend and colleague, Bruce Damer:

http://vimeo.com/78166998
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 6, 2014 - 11:14pm PT
^^the conglomeration is highly respectful. and the drake proposal is neat.
but im still talkin about the here and now.today' and what we,ve learned from yesterday. maybe i need to revise that video

not what we think might be
MH2

climber
Jun 7, 2014 - 07:11am PT
The molecular-level view of a synaptic bouton astounds me. We cannot think or imagine our way to finding out how we are made. We must look.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 7, 2014 - 09:20am PT
it is awesome, indeed, MH2...

and we must look, no doubt about that. How interesting and fun that is, the looking.

We walk to the cliff, our approach provides us views that only affirm our doubts that any line takes us to the top. At the base we find some possible weakness, but our limited vantage point can't prove a passage to the top. Finally on the route, we get to some point, apparently devoid of any means of passage. Our focus then on tiny crystals, tiny edges, time itself slows and we probe out in our reconnaissance testing every possible way, and eventually find the one.

It isn't something that can be proved or disproved with indisputable arguments based on philosophy, or even belief. We murder "impossible" with the gentle weapon of our presence, our presence and careful looking.

it is awesome, indeed.

Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Jun 7, 2014 - 12:22pm PT
It isn't something that can be proved or disproved with indisputable arguments based on philosophy, or even belief. We murder "impossible" with the gentle weapon of our presence, our presence and careful looking.

Sounds like a good description of meditation and other inner explorations as well.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 7, 2014 - 12:47pm PT
it wasn't intended to be an exclusive statement, we must look, that is something very general...

From Eric Shipton's book Blank on the Map

Another strange feature that had caused a good deal of dispute among geographers was the Workmans' Cornice glacier. According to these explorers they had found a glacier which had no outlet, being completely surrounded by mountains. This remarkable glacier lay in the angle formed by the Hispar south wall and by the Biafo west wall, and although never actually reached, yet it had been observed from all sides. Sir Martin Conway denied the physical possibility of an enclosed glacier, on the ground that for thousands of years snow must have been pouring into it, and that either the resulting ice would have piled up and over-flowed the barrier wall, or melted and found an outlet as water. The Workmans retorted that they had observed correctly, and appealed to the argumentum ad hominem- Sir Martin Conway "not having seen the glacier in question nor its barriers" - leaving the controversy to be renewed by us after a lapse of nearly thirty years. Shipton and Spender had derided the idea of a completely enclosed glacier, while Auden and I supported the Doctor and Mrs. Workman - more, perhaps, from chivalrous motives than for any scientific reason. So upon me lay the task of establishing (I hoped) the truth of the Workmans' assertion and of confounding the scientific skeptics a consummation always desirable, if seldom attainable.



After I rejoined the Sherpas we followed down the right bank, passing great logs of juniper which made me long to camp and start a fire. After a fortnight without wood, I felt quite guilty at passing all this fuel without adding some to our loads, forgetting that we were going down the glacier and not up. Two miles on we reached the snout of the glacier and a grazing village of tumble-down stone huts. Conversation with the inhabitants was not easy, but we managed to get a few eggs and learnt that the village from which the shepherds came was Bisil in the main Basha valley. We could now identify the nullah we were in as that marked on the map as the Kushuchun Lungma. It is difficult to understand how the Workmans failed to suspect some connection between the large stream issuing from this nullah and their Cornice glacier, when they affirmed so positively that it had no outlet. In a drab world it would be refreshing to report the discovery of a glacier flowing uphill, or even of one which did not flow at all. It gives me no pleasure, therefore, to have to affirm that this glacier behaved as others do. To many - schoolmasters and parents, editors and politicians, for instance - correcting the mistakes of others is a congenial task. As it is more usual for me to give than to receive opportunities for performing this pleasant duty, I ought to have rejoiced, but I can honestly say that to tramp down the Cornice glacier, hoping every moment to reach an impasse and finding none, was as sorry a business as any that has fallen to my lot.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 7, 2014 - 01:03pm PT
Sounds like a good description of meditation and other inner explorations as well.

The problem encountered with meditation in this regard has to do with the inevitable invocation of faith---much like the default position encountered in faith-based religious life or spirituality in general. The problem of unravelling an inner conundrum or apparent mystery without the capacity to compare and generalize is a difficult and perhaps insurmountable one .

If the meditator encounters what he/she considers some nugget of experiential truth about the inner experience ---how can it be ascertained that the subjective perception of this truth is not an illusion?Science itself ,operating in the objective world overflowing with verifiable comparisons and reliable precedent often gets things wrong---so how can a meditator know that they are wrong about something encountered in the specialized brain state of meditation?
Faith?



jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jun 7, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
If the meditator encounters some nugget of truth about the inner experience how can it be ascertained that the subjective perception of this truth is not an illusion? . . . so how can a meditator know that they are wrong about something encountered in the specialized brain state of meditation? Faith?

I have raised this question many times. At one point JL criticized my use of the word "illusion" (he was correct in doing so). Those who meditate will point to thousands of years of guided meditation that has resulted in shared epiphanies . . . that may or may not reflect anything other than mind games having little to nothing to do with the real world.

The more one works at a project, the greater one perceives the value of the project.
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