What is "Mind?"

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MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
May 27, 2019 - 05:25pm PT
"climbing up high" reminded her of the fragility of life.


What is "Mind?"

One answer is "a bundle of associations."




What is a bundle?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangent_bundle


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_isomorphism
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
May 27, 2019 - 06:20pm PT
So Caroline Gleich reached the summit of Everest on the 24th. On instagram she described the experience as magical and intense and that the "climbing up high" reminded her of the fragility of life.


Another view:


Evidence of life on Earth goes back 3.5 billion years. Even if we give the Himalayas 450 mya they may prove more fragile than life.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
May 27, 2019 - 06:50pm PT
Ok but the Himalayan mountains have a stern job interview and probation for every human candidate.
Interesting, considering the Himalaya are rocks and snow, being uplifted by tectonic plates, eroded by the wind, sun, ice and rain, physically.

Maybe mountains have better things to do than continually second guess their nature.

MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
May 27, 2019 - 06:55pm PT
Good observation, Jim.

They also serve who only stand and wait.


On His Blindness
John Milton




edit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_I_Consider_How_My_Light_is_Spent
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
May 27, 2019 - 07:20pm PT
Speaking of math jokes, I saw a cartoon that went like this: a student asks a math teacher "Will we ever use any of this algebra?" and the teacher answers: "You won't, but one of the smart kids might."
formerclimber

Boulder climber
CA
May 28, 2019 - 07:14am PT
^ Smart kid would learn plumbing, carpentry and/or electrician skills.
(I got bunch of university reference letters that I have talent for math from top school-educated professors, I've been even dumb enough to get my computer science education - what a waste of time and what a waste of life by my scientist mathematician/physicist parents, they're dumber than a house cat, in reality, and I can say this about %99.99 percent of "scientists"). Pursuing science career is a sign of mental disorder, some kind of combination of narcissism, delusions of grandeur and obsessiveness.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
May 28, 2019 - 07:19am PT
Moving up into the mountains has always been associated with spiritual endeavors for as long as we have historical records. It was perhaps Petrarch, the father of Renaissance Humanism, who began to see "perspective" from a high point on land.

Surely after many hard climbs that you or I have done, there is some sense of serenity that settles into our souls. That is spiritualism in one of its forms that even agnostics and atheists can recognize and relate to.
WBraun

climber
May 28, 2019 - 07:39am PT
they're dumber than a house cat, in reality, and I can say this about %99.99 percent of "scientists

Lol ..... you're worst than I am ... :-)
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
May 28, 2019 - 02:05pm PT
Formerclimber: I do believe you're quarreling with a cartoon I saw on internet!
Mike.

climber
May 28, 2019 - 02:40pm PT
In fairness to scientists and felines, %99.99 percent of people are dumber than a housecat.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
May 28, 2019 - 04:12pm PT
MikeL. Thanks for the comedy recognition (that immediately makes me like someone). Having said that...
Surely after many hard climbs that you or I have done, there is some sense of serenity that settles into our souls. That is spiritualism in one of its forms that even agnostics and atheists can recognize and relate to.
Are you suggesting by this that scientists (my team) have no explanation for that feeling of spiritualism that you have? Sheesh, I've been saying for a long time on this thread that "feeling" is something that evolved way earlier than mind! You can't use having this or that feeling as proof of your metaphysics.

By the way, I'm still thinking that memory is the path to understanding mind. Ed's recent links were interesting from the standpoint of how mammalian-type consciousness might ultimately happen because of a phase transition of sorts, but that still gets us only to mammalian consciousness, not mind. How we are different than rats is what I think of as mind as opposed to consciousness. Mind is Monday-morning-quarterback consciousness. That's what I have come up with so far. Mental speculating...
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
May 28, 2019 - 05:56pm PT
they're dumber than a house cat, in reality, and I can say this about %99.99 percent of "scientists

In every cat household I know, cats rule.

The humans are staff.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
May 28, 2019 - 07:52pm PT
Mind is Monday-morning-quarterback consciousness.

I like that. Reviewing the game, watching the playback, looking for what worked and what didn't, for all of which some kind of memory is crucial, and some kind of goal. I balk at getting the ball to the end-line or through the goalposts as metaphors but we are free to substitute our own ideas of what the goal of Monday morning quarterbacking is.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
May 29, 2019 - 07:20am PT
eeyonkee: Are you suggesting by this that scientists (my team) have no explanation for that feeling of spiritualism that you have?


No, explanations are only limited by one's imagination. But if we wanted to attempt explanations, we'd first need to say or describe what feelings are. That would seem to present the same problems that we have with thoughts, perceptions, consciousness, and mind. IMO, all of these things appear to be energy flows, maybe textures. Beyond that, they all expose themselves in our conversations as stick-figure conceptualizations--none of which ARE the "thing" we're trying to expose.

I was just pointing in my post, but perhaps what I was pointing at isn't *really* there at all.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
May 29, 2019 - 07:56am PT
perhaps what I was pointing at isn't *really* there at all.


That feeling may come from using the word, "conceptualization."
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 29, 2019 - 09:00am PT
Really hate to see this thread go. It's been fun. And edumacational.

I'll miss it. There is much I will miss of late. At the end of next month I'll be reluctantly leaving a beloved house i've lived in for many years.

Al things must pass.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
May 29, 2019 - 03:30pm PT
Al things?

Kidding aside, I will miss you, Ward Trotter.
jogill

climber
Colorado
May 29, 2019 - 04:14pm PT
This thread has a start on Climbers Taco Salad by several of us. How about the rest of you? Gonna hang it up, or move to another forum? Just curious.

None of the alternatives to ST feels the same, the formats differing. Actually, MP is pretty good, but has a lot of noobs and seems to me overwhelmingly climbing oriented, although not nearly as fixated on California as ST (that's just me, having separated from the climbing scene years ago). WF is indescribable. Needs to be sprayed with Lysol.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2019 - 04:18pm PT
The idea that "feelings" appeared earlier than awareness is a non-starter if you think about it. Does a feeling hold emotional content if there's nobody there to feel it? Just as blue is in the mind of the beholder, so goes it with feelings. Blue is not an external thing or phenomenon "out there" (on in the brain) that is passed on, in whole cloth, to consciousness, nor does it exist in a bucolic state in the unconscious. None of this stuff is like inventory in a store.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
May 29, 2019 - 04:22pm PT
WF is indescribable. Needs to be sprayed with Lysol.

There ainít that much Lysol.
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